Clady.

[CrazyHorse]

Is his career over? Does he come back next year? Paycut?

[SR]

I don't think he'll be back but this is in the wrong forum.

[silkamilkamonico]

Not with Denver.

He could be serviceable but he likely won't be the dominanat player he once was.

[Ravage!!!]

I think he comes back, but he won't take a paycut, why should he? If we cut him, then he might have to renegotiate his contract with another team. HOWEVER, have you noticed just how many BAD offensive lines there are in the NFL?? A ton. Everyone is looking for good, if not very good, offensive lineman. Even coming off an injury, Clady helps this team when in the lineup. Right now, OL are at a premium.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think he comes back, but he won't take a paycut, why should he? If we cut him, then he might have to renegotiate his contract with another team. HOWEVER, have you noticed just how many BAD offensive lines there are in the NFL?? A ton. Everyone is looking for good, if not very good, offensive lineman. Even coming off an injury, Clady helps this team when in the lineup. Right now, OL are at a premium.

I agree, I don't think the team can simply dismiss him considering the current state of the line.

The only way I could see him being cut is if we get good value in the first round at OT.

[Timmy!]

Von Millers future ginormigantic contract says hello. Clady won't be a Bronco next season.

[elsid13]

Von Millers future ginormigantic contract says hello. Clady won't be a Bronco next season.

If Manning retires or Ware is released (Ray to take that spot), there is a good chance Clady is back.

[Timmy!]

If Manning retires or Ware is released (Ray to take that spot), there is a good chance Clady is back.

I'd rather keep Ware. Mannings $$$ will go to Von, but Oz is going to take another 6-8 mil too. Unless he has a major restructure, Clady is gone. Nostratimmy has spoken.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd rather keep Ware. Mannings $$$ will go to Von, but Oz is going to take another 6-8 mil too. Unless he has a major restructure, Clady is gone. Nostratimmy has spoken.
We already have about $8 million going to Miller in cap space. It won't take all of Manning's cap hit.

[elsid13]

We already have about $8 million going to Miller in cap space. It won't take all of Manning's cap hit.

I expect Miller to make a little more than Justin Houston so you are looking at about $15M a year

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I expect Miller to make a little more than Justin Houston so you are looking at about $15M a year

Right, and Clady will only get 10-10.5 his last two years. The last two years of his deal are team friendly, so unless they think he's so far gone he's not good enough to start he will be back.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Right, and Clady will only get 10-10.5 his last two years. The last two years of his deal are team friendly, so unless they think he's so far gone he's not good enough to start he will be back.
10-10.5 per year that is....so even if he's average he'll be worth it. As Rav pointed out OT's don't grow on trees.

[UnderArmour]

I'd be okay with trading Clady, but cutting him would be a terrible roster decision. $10.5 million is fair market value for a starting LT. Unless a team has one on a rookie deal, $8-$12 million is what a LT is going to cost.

[Simple Jaded]

He's currently the only LT Denver has, and a damn good one.

Btw, apparently the salary cap goes boom again next year so let's not pretend it's a matter of money.

[Joel]

I'd rather keep Ware. Mannings $$$ will go to Von, but Oz is going to take another 6-8 mil too. Unless he has a major restructure, Clady is gone. Nostratimmy has spoken.
All the prognostication I've seen from people with a record good enough to make a living off it say pretty much the same: Huge cap hit, odometer nears 30 and THREE major injuries to the SAME leg in six years. After the first, Clady started every game but visibly underperformed his previous seasons' All Pro level; he was an All Pro again the NEXT season, but then missed most of 2013 and was again substandard in 2014. With an extra offseason to rest and recuperate, I expected a 2015 like 2011-2012s resurgence: He tore the same legs ACL instead.

Clady plays a premium position and has had as many All Pro years as leg injuries, so probably needn't take a paycut if unwilling: As Rav says, there are enough teams (and QBs) desperate for even mediocre blindside protection that he can find a buyer. Hell, Beadles is making $5 million/yr to play INSIDE, and he's not half the blocker Clady is (especially not as a mauling run blocker.) Yet it's also hard to see us paying $10 million/yr for a 29-year-old whose leg is hamburger at a position where mobility and agility are prerequisites. Especially since he needed TWO full years to return to form after the other leg injuries.

Unless Sambrailo's awful (and it's worth noting his own injury's keeping him out of tomorrows game) Kubiak and Dennison will likely rely on their experience and record coaching up many mediocre talents until they were reliable if unspectacular blockers. That might prove a bit hubristic, but they HAVE repeatedly shown they don't need an elite versatile player with pre-injury Cladys strength AND agility to succeed.

Perhaps this storys real moral is that highly-paid 300+ lb. All Pros shouldn't risk it all on offseason game of pickup basketball. :( If his four injuries were in unrelated places, I'd feel differently, but only the pec tear was. Paying $10 mil/yr for an OT to pivot and push on a shredded leg when he's nearing the age injuries become common and careers abruptly end just seems a bad investment.

[Dzone]

Clady's body is breaking down, he may make a miraculous recovery, but doubtful
We got a 7th round pick for Chris Clark and now he is starting for Houston and playing good.

[DenBronx]

He's our best lineman but I can see Elway trying to get him to take a paycut. We really needed him this year.

[NightTerror218]

I think Elway restructures Clady due to injuries.

Can't pay him that if he is not on field. Probably change to more incentives and option to earn more overall.

[CrazyHorse]

I think Elway restructures Clady due to injuries.

Can't pay him that if he is not on field. Probably change to more incentives and option to earn more overall.

That's what I'm hoping for. An extremely team friendly incentive laden contract.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

We might have a little leverage to ask him to restructure. All of his guaranteed money was in the first 3 years.

[Simple Jaded]

All the prognostication I've seen from people with a record good enough to make a living off it say pretty much the same: Huge cap hit, odometer nears 30 and THREE major injuries to the SAME leg in six years. After the first, Clady started every game but visibly underperformed his previous seasons' All Pro level; he was an All Pro again the NEXT season, but then missed most of 2013 and was again substandard in 2014. With an extra offseason to rest and recuperate, I expected a 2015 like 2011-2012s resurgence: He tore the same legs ACL instead.

Clady plays a premium position and has had as many All Pro years as leg injuries, so probably needn't take a paycut if unwilling: As Rav says, there are enough teams (and QBs) desperate for even mediocre blindside protection that he can find a buyer. Hell, Beadles is making $5 million/yr to play INSIDE, and he's not half the blocker Clady is (especially not as a mauling run blocker.) Yet it's also hard to see us paying $10 million/yr for a 29-year-old whose leg is hamburger at a position where mobility and agility are prerequisites. Especially since he needed TWO full years to return to form after the other leg injuries.

Unless Sambrailo's awful (and it's worth noting his own injury's keeping him out of tomorrows game) Kubiak and Dennison will likely rely on their experience and record coaching up many mediocre talents until they were reliable if unspectacular blockers. That might prove a bit hubristic, but they HAVE repeatedly shown they don't need an elite versatile player with pre-injury Cladys strength AND agility to succeed.

Perhaps this storys real moral is that highly-paid 300+ lb. All Pros shouldn't risk it all on offseason game of pickup basketball. :( If his four injuries were in unrelated places, I'd feel differently, but only the pec tear was. Paying $10 mil/yr for an OT to pivot and push on a shredded leg when he's nearing the age injuries become common and careers abruptly end just seems a bad investment.
Name one mediocre talent they've coached up.

[VonDoom]

I originally assumed he was done in Denver. But with all of our line issues, I could see him back if he takes a big pay cut / restructure. He's not playing here at $10 million next year. I just can't see it.

[elsid13]

The average salary range for starting veteran LT in the NFL is between $8M to $10M. People are not realistic thinking that Clady won't command that kinda of deal.

[NightTrainLayne]

He never should have cut off his dreads. He's never been the same.

[Ravage!!!]

I think Elway restructures Clady due to injuries.

Can't pay him that if he is not on field. Probably change to more incentives and option to earn more overall.

If you are a player that can get upfront money, why would you take a paycut.. incentive laden... contract? Especially if you are a player that has had to deal with injuries. You think the player doesn't know he's had injuries?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If you are a player that can get upfront money, why would you take a paycut.. incentive laden... contract? Especially if you are a player that has had to deal with injuries. You think the player doesn't know he's had injuries?

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. The guaranteed money is all in the first 3 years. None of 2016 or 2017 is guaranteed. Personally, if he's even 80% of what he use to be I think they should keep him.

[Joel]

Name one mediocre talent they've coached up.
We drafted Chris Myers, but he barely played except when Nalen was hurt, then we traded him to Houston (reuniting him with Kubiak) for a 6th round pick. That suddenly made him a starter, then a two-time Pro Bowler. Eric Winton's been mediocre since leaving Houston, bouncing between 3 teams in as many years and losing the starting job last season, but was good enough IN Houston to get $22 mil over 4 years from KC. Wade Smith also bounced between 3 teams, in 6 years, and only held onto the starting job throughout 1; then he came to Houston, kept the starting job, and even made a Pro Bowl.

In Denver, there were Dan Neil, Ben Hamilton and Tony Jones (a career-starter, so not mediocre, but his sole Pro Bowl was under Shanny, Kubes and Dennison in '98.) Ben Hamilton may be the best Broncos example, a severely undersized LG who became a solid pulling lead blocker in our ZBS under Kubiak and Dennison. Call him a puffed up FB if you like, but he never would've been a starter without coaching giving him the required skills and a system in which to apply them; he remained a Broncos starter even after Kubiak and Dennison left, but when McDumbass cut him he was out of the league a year later.

Understand, I'm not saying all (nor any) of those guys were scrubs, nor that Kubiak and Dennison made them all HoFers, only that most were below average talents but above average players thanks to developed skills and a system that took advantage of them, both of which reflect coaching.

Sometimes I worry Kubiak and Dennison believe their own hype a little too much, so we end up trying to make starters out of guys like Cooper Carlisle and George Foster (though Foster was an underperforming 1st round bust, and I personally think that was because of him, DESPITE coaching.) It's fine to make bad players decent, but much better to make good players great. Regardless, our HC and OC have a long record of doing both, just as Kubiak's gotten at least one Pro Bowl season out of EVERY permanent starting QB he's ever had, even Griese and Schaub.

Going back to Clady, it's hard to imagine a former All Pro taking a paycut on a contract he got after a franchise tag, but it's equally hard to imagine Elway would keep paying $10 mil/yr to a guy with a shredded leg at a critical mobility-intensive position, especially since each time that leg's been hurt in the past he's needed MORE than a full year to play decently again.

[Rick]

I don't think we can count Ware's money as a free up anymore. Before the season I would have said yes, this is his last year and we can use his money next year. He keeps playing like he is now I don't see how we let him go, I don't care who we have as a backup.

I think Clady will be gone.

[Joel]

I don't think we can count Ware's money as a free up anymore. Before the season I would have said yes, this is his last year and we can use his money next year. He keeps playing like he is now I don't see how we let him go, I don't care who we have as a backup.

I think Clady will be gone.
Well, for the sake of argument, whom would you rather see starting: Sambrailo or Ray?

[cmc0605]

I think most people suspect any offensive line issues we have are due to development and lack of chemistry, not an inherent lack of talent. I tend to agree from what I've seen.

I also think the coaches like Ty Sambrailo, and Clady's roster status for next year will depend on where Ty is at later this season in terms of his player evolution. If he does enough to just establish confidence that he can be the franchise LT, then I don't see Clady coming back (though I don't think his career is over, he'll find a spot somewhere). I like Clady and I think he can still be very good, but age/injuries and a young early round draft pick coming in is just the natural circle of life in the NFL.

[Rick]

Well, for the sake of argument, whom would you rather see starting: Sambrailo or Ray?

Or another argument, Clady coming off of yet another season ending injury or possible NFL sack leader Ware.

[Joel]

Or another argument, Clady coming off of yet another season ending injury or possible NFL sack leader Ware.
Yeah, fair point; the real question is how much is the performance drop from Ware to Ray and from Clady to Sambrailo. But I doubt Clady plays another season for us at $10 million in any event. If we knew his 2016 would be another All Pro season, sure, but we definitely don't know that considering this is his third severe injury to the same leg, and each season following the last two was subpar.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yeah, fair point; the real question is how much is the performance drop from Ware to Ray and from Clady to Sambrailo. But I doubt Clady plays another season for us at $10 million in any event. If we knew his 2016 would be another All Pro season, sure, but we definitely don't know that considering this is his third severe injury to the same leg, and each season following the last two was subpar.

Joel, what is the median pay scale for a starting LT?

[NightTerror218]

If you are a player that can get upfront money, why would you take a paycut.. incentive laden... contract? Especially if you are a player that has had to deal with injuries. You think the player doesn't know he's had injuries?

Restructure, spread out money over more years, make more incentives then guarentees. I did not say pay cut.

[TXBRONC]

Joel, what is the median pay scale for a starting LT?

Do you want the long answer or the short answer? :lol:

[Joel]

Joel, what is the median pay scale for a starting LT?
I don't know the median, but OtC says there are only 7 OTs (left or not, and including Clady) making $10+ mil/yr. They have Duane Brown at $8.9, Russell Okung just over $8 and Joe Staley just under $7½: Those are elite LTs not coming off a pair off season-ending injuries to the same leg. So is Elway sure Clady's still a top 5 OT? He's paid like one.


Restructure, spread out money over more years, make more incentives then guarentees. I did not say pay cut.
That's a great idea if Clady (and his agent) are agreeable, but are they? Or do they think they could get more from some team desperate for even a decent LT to protect their $20 mil/yr QB investment? As others have said, Clady knows his injury history, too, so just how much unguaranteed cash would he be willing to trade to stay on the team when he's already gotten most of what we'll EVER pay him? This might be a situation where bad memories over a franchise tag come back to bite us.

[NightTerror218]

I don't know the median, but OtC says there are only 7 OTs (left or not, and including Clady) making $10+ mil/yr. They have Duane Brown at $8.9, Russell Okung just over $8 and Joe Staley just under $7½: Those are elite LTs not coming off a pair off season-ending injuries to the same leg. So is Elway sure Clady's still a top 5 OT? He's paid like one.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/left-tackle/

Here is a break down. Top shelf left tackles are at $9 mill and up, top 5 left tackle is $10 mill us. Solid pro bowl is $7 mill plus. Stanley and Okung are at end of contracts and will be paid better soon. I do not think Clady is a top 5 tackle but is probably bowl caliber. I think $8 million is fair.

[Joel]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/left-tackle/

Here is a break down. Top shelf left tackles are at $9 mill and up, top 5 left tackle is $10 mill us. Solid pro bowl is $7 mill plus. Stanley and Okung are at end of contracts and will be paid better soon. I do not think Clady is a top 5 tackle but is probably bowl caliber. I think $8 million is fair.
Probably; think he'll take a $2 mil/yr cut? ESPN was speculating on a restructure in February of THIS year, even before he tore an ACL.

[WARHORSE]

Trade.

[NightTerror218]

Probably; think he'll take a $2 mil/yr cut? ESPN was speculating on a restructure in February of THIS year, even before he tore an ACL.

Damn it, I never said a cut, i said restructure in my other posts!!!

No player takes a straight cut.

[Joel]

Damn it, I never said a cut, i said restructure in my other posts!!!

No player takes a straight cut.
Call it what we like, I doubt he accepts $8 million to play next year when legally entitled to >$10 million. Not when so many teams are desperate for blindside QB protection that they'll glady pay that for a former All Pro and hope he's as good as new after surgery. Likewise, after three major injuries in six years, all to the same leg, I doubt his agent's dumb enough to tell him to take a reduced salary with a bunch of incentives he'll never make if hobbled, hurt again or just benched as a shell of a formerly great player.

I'd love to see Clady return if he's his old self, and that would be a bargain at $10 million, whether we're trying to protect an immobile surgically repaired 40-year-old or a guy getting his first NFL starts. But we don't know he WILL be his old self, and have strong reason to doubt it. Regardless, what I'd like and what happens are frequently very divergent because of decisions entirely in the hands of others; negotiations between Elway and Clady (and his agent) are a good example.

[Joel]

Trade.
Maybe not a bad idea; Clady's got a great performance record (when healthy) and remains young enough to have several good years if healthy again. Teams that need a LT badly may not be willing to wait and see if we really cut him, then get into a bidding war in hopes they 1) don't lose and 2) get him for less than he's due (especially since a bidding war raises the chance the winner pays MORE.)

I'm normally trade averse because draft picks are so overvalued and players so undervalued that the only players with decent trade value are too good to give away, while those we can afford losing have little value. But every rule has an exception, and this is one such; we'd probably get a BIT more than a 6th round pick for a former All Pro, even coming off another serious injury.

[NightTerror218]

Call it what we like, I doubt he accepts $8 million to play next year when legally entitled to >$10 million. Not when so many teams are desperate for blindside QB protection that they'll glady pay that for a former All Pro and hope he's as good as new after surgery. Likewise, after three major injuries in six years, all to the same leg, I doubt his agent's dumb enough to tell him to take a reduced salary with a bunch of incentives he'll never make if hobbled, hurt again or just benched as a shell of a formerly great player.

I'd love to see Clady return if he's his old self, and that would be a bargain at $10 million, whether we're trying to protect an immobile surgically repaired 40-year-old or a guy getting his first NFL starts. But we don't know he WILL be his old self, and have strong reason to doubt it. Regardless, what I'd like and what happens are frequently very divergent because of decisions entirely in the hands of others; negotiations between Elway and Clady (and his agent) are a good example.

Not when you extend his contract and move money around to reduce cap hit and not reduce his guarantee for next year. This happens a lot with older players, polumalu did it recently before he retired. Clady will be paid if he is a FA but not top dollar, probably a little more than Mathis coming off so many injuries. $6 mill probably. He was all pros 4 yrs ago?

[Joel]

Not when you extend his contract and move money around to reduce cap hit and not reduce his guarantee for next year. This happens a lot with older players, polumalu did it recently before he retired. Clady will be paid if he is a FA but not top dollar, probably a little more than Mathis coming off so many injuries. $6 mill probably. He was all pros 4 yrs ago?
Maybe; extensions don't really change cap hits, only "extend" them, but sometimes that's good enough since it also effectively extends the cap space available. Given Cladys age, an extension might even work out for everyone: A reasonable 4-3 year deal would likely cover him until retirement. But, if he's never himself again, wouldn't an extension also mean more years of dead money after we released him?

[NightTerror218]

Maybe; extensions don't really change cap hits, only "extend" them, but sometimes that's good enough since it also effectively extends the cap space available. Given Cladys age, an extension might even work out for everyone: A reasonable 4-3 year deal would likely cover him until retirement. But, if he's never himself again, wouldn't an extension also mean more years of dead money after we released him?

Look at how Elway does contracts, guarentees are front loaded with later years not guaranteed. Restructures with extentions do change cap hits, not just a normal extension.

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe; extensions don't really change cap hits, only "extend" them, but sometimes that's good enough since it also effectively extends the cap space available. Given Cladys age, an extension might even work out for everyone: A reasonable 4-3 year deal would likely cover him until retirement. But, if he's never himself again, wouldn't an extension also mean more years of dead money after we released him?
Of course extensions help cap hits, its why they are given most of the time... to eleviate the cap number. Give guaranteed money up front, and extend the years.. hence distributing the money over a longer period of time, thus, lowering the cap number.

[NightTerror218]

Of course extensions help cap hits, its why they are given most of the time... to eleviate the cap number. Give guaranteed money up front, and extend the years.. hence distributing the money over a longer period of time, thus, lowering the cap number.

Only ones that don't are extension to rookies contracta.

[TXBRONC]

Only ones that don't are extension to rookies contracta.

Why would that be? I don't doubt you I'm just curious because what if the player is in the last year of his contract?

[Joel]

Look at how Elway does contracts, guarentees are front loaded with later years not guaranteed. Restructures with extentions do change cap hits, not just a normal extension.

As Rav says, that's how EVERYONE restructures, and WHY; Elway didn't invent it (though his own final restructure did show him some errors to avoid.) But every dime a player actually gets counts against the cap, whether bonus, salary or incentive, over 1 year or 10. $10 million=$10 million whether a big single-year whammy or a moderate one for two or three.

When Manning was contracted for $20 million this year we could've restructured to a $1 million annual hit: All we had to do was extend him through 2035. I'm not sure the CBA permits that, but we don't want a cap hit for anyone decades after he retires, because: Extensions don't change cap hits, only "extend" them. Delay them, if you like; whatever we call it, $10 million=$10 million. It's like saving Earth from a huge asteroid by blowing it into little pieces: All that means is the exact same amount of mass hits the planet in many small pieces instead of one big one.


Of course extensions help cap hits, its why they are given most of the time... to eleviate the cap number. Give guaranteed money up front, and extend the years.. hence distributing the money over a longer period of time, thus, lowering the cap number.

Don't be obstuse; that only lowers the cap number for A year, at the cost of increasing it for MULTIPLE future ones. In other words, less cap space to re-sign guys like Sly, Roby and Ray when their rookie contracts expire, just so we can pay Clady the $10 million we promised next year without the ledger reflecting that. Again, there's a reason teams don't blow their next DECADE of cap space paying a whole roster of Pro Bowlers a kings ransom for a couple years but "officially" only paying the veteran minimum.

Sorry I didn't spell out what all three of us already knew, but I'm told that's verbose and condescending. On the other hand, when I take it for granted that people know something they tend to bring it up as something I "ignored" or don't know. Heads you win, tails I lose; always a pleasure, fellas. ;)