The Audacity of Peyton Manning

[CrazyHorse]

IT TAKES PEYTON Manning 15 minutes to shed his suit of armor after a game.

He begins with his cleats, which he can barely untie without assistance. A Broncos equipment staffer helps peel them off his feet while he does a radio interview, because after nearly 25 years of football dating back to high school, it's a relief to not have to bend over that far. Next come his shoulder pads, which, when yanked over his head, generate a groan that is a mixture of suffering and sweet relief. Manning's pale arms and torso are covered in fresh scrapes and old bruises, some the color of strawberries, others a shade of eggplant.

His socks come off after several violent tugs, revealing toes that are twisted and bent into obtuse angles. When he removes a thick blue DonJoy knee brace from his stiff left leg, he twice pauses to grimace and gather himself before stripping it off and handing it to a staffer for safekeeping. As he slices away at the thick layers of athletic tape supporting his ankles, he looks like a surgeon operating on his own leg without anesthesia.

When he finishes, he stands, joints creaking, loose strips of tape and blades of grass still stuck to his skin. He has just completed a comeback win over the Chiefs at Arrowhead Stadium in Week 2, and a flood of text messages keeps pinging his phone, which has a picture of his 4-year-old twins, Marshall and Mosley, as his background. He can't resist reading a few and smirking with satisfaction. He drapes a towel over his shoulders, but the crooked pink scar on the back of his neck is still visible, evidence of the four neck surgeries he's had to repair a pinched nerve and herniated disks and to fuse his vertebrae. Because of the victory -- the 181st of his career -- Manning smiles as he limps gingerly in the direction of the showers. If this is what it feels like on a good night, only two games into his 18th year, try to imagine the bad ones.

It's hard not to wonder: How much longer can he possibly keep this up?
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13734150/denver-broncos-qb-peyton-manning-defies-weakening-body-best-brain-nfl

It's amazing he can barely untie his own shoes but can still play in the NFL.

[DenBronx]

Mannings my age. I cant imagine my body taking hits like he does for a full season. I can see why guys retire before 40....father time gets us all.

[tomjonesrocks]

I feel like there's some serious embellishment here.

He's old and all that but why would Peyton Manning's toes be "bent in obtuse angles"? C'mon.

And pads aren't easy to get off at any age.

[Dzone]

Everybody groans when they take off stuff like that. This guy is trying to make it sound like colonel sanders is leading the team

[WJK]

Pretty sensationalist article. And a little creepy. Sounds like he's breathing down Peyton's neck while he changes.

[NightTrainLayne]

Peyton eats up stories like this one. He loves it. Stuff like this is motivating for him.

[BroncoJoe]

I feel like there's some serious embellishment here.

He's old and all that but why would Peyton Manning's toes be "bent in obtuse angles"? C'mon.

And pads aren't easy to get off at any age.

Maybe his shoes are too tight? :D

[TXBRONC]

Everybody groans when they take off stuff like that. This guy is trying to make it sound like colonel sanders is leading the team

I think that would be Papa John.

[nevcraw]

Maybe his shoes are too tight? :D

we know his helmet is.. that's why is always sporting that forehead contusion when he takes his helmet off.

[tomjonesrocks]

Pretty sensationalist article. And a little creepy. Sounds like he's breathing down Peyton's neck while he changes.

lol...I thought the same. "His socks come off with several violent tugs"... Easy there dude...this is starting to get weird...

[TXBRONC]

The way the guy describes Manning there is no way physically he could even make onto the field. The guy is a dope.

[CrazyHorse]

The way the guy describes Manning there is no way physically he could even make onto the field. The guy is a dope.

He wills his body into doing things it's no longer capable of.

[Davii]

Manning is only 1 year older than me. If I had the required talent I would be out there, no doubt.

[Simple Jaded]

You'd think that after 25 years of football he could've found some better equipment, like a helmet that fits, for example.

[CrazyHorse]

You'd think that after 25 years of football he could've found some better equipment, like a helmet that fits, for example.

His head is that big to house that enormous football brain of his. No helmet can properly contain it.:laugh:

[Joel]

Manning is only 1 year older than me. If I had the required talent I would be out there, no doubt.
He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.

[Dean]

He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.

. . . oh, and completions, and TDs.

[Slick]

. . . oh, and completions, and TDs.

He's thrown 6 TDs and 5 INTs, Coach.

[Simple Jaded]

He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.

Weren't you just talking about how you knew people would blame Manning when it was the OL's fault?

[DenBronx]

Manning really looks bad this year. Not saying "he's done" but he does look very bad at times. The 2 INTs he threw today were total wtf moments for me.

If he continues to play like this you got to think it will be his last for sure.

[Joel]

Weren't you just talking about how you knew people would blame Manning when it was the OL's fault?
Yeah, and I'm still not certain that's not the case: But the line was undeniably better (if not perfect) in protection AND run blocking today, and Manning STILL stunk, so they can't take the blame. If he just needs time to regain his trust in the line that it spent 3 solid years shattering, okay: He's got a week. If the protection and run support's as good next week and he's as bad as today, that's all on him.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah, and I'm still not certain that's not the case: But the line was undeniably better (if not perfect) in protection AND run blocking today, and Manning STILL stunk, so they can't take the blame. If he just needs time to regain his trust in the line that it spent 3 solid years shattering, okay: He's got a week. If the protection and run support's as good next week and he's as bad as today, that's all on him.

Stunk huh? You got a shitty memory.

[Joel]

Stunk huh? You got a shitty memory.
Was wildly inconsistent then: He was occasionally great, occasionally awful, and usually somewhere in between, but leaned more toward the latter. He faced a lot less 2nd and 12s and 3rd and 8s today, but we kept punting a lot anyway. Except for the two drives when Minnesota got the ball back without ANY kind of Denver kick. One was at the edge of McManus' range, right before the half, and the D was so gassed by then the long return set up an easy TD: That's basically 10 pts Manning gave them in a SINGLE 2:00 Drill. Be real, man: This was the most unambiguosly bad MANNING game in years.

[Simple Jaded]

Was wildly inconsistent then: He was occasionally great, occasionally awful, and usually somewhere in between, but leaned more toward the latter. He faced a lot less 2nd and 12s and 3rd and 8s today, but we kept punting a lot anyway. Except for the two drives when Minnesota got the ball back without ANY kind of Denver kick. One was at the edge of McManus' range, right before the half, and the D was so gassed by then the long return set up an easy TD: That's basically 10 pts Manning gave them in a SINGLE 2:00 Drill. Be real, man: This was the most unambiguosly bad MANNING game in years.
The line sucks.
Receivers suck.
Play calling sucks.
Elways jealous.
He just wins.

[Joel]

The line sucks.
Receivers suck.
Play calling sucks.
Elways jealous.
He just wins.
Those arguments have been around longer than we've had Manning, Sanders a couple All Pro guards or Kubiaks playbook; if that logic was invalid then, it's even more so since the TEAM's improved a LOT. I mean, Decker's not bad, but he's no Sanders, no one will ever mistake Kuper (let alone Beadles; "pumped up FB" I think you called him?) for Mathis or Vasquez and I'm confident most people would agree Kubiak and Dennisons offensive game plans and playcalls are worlds better than Fox and Gases (or even Fox and McCoys.)

So excusing Mannings recent performance requires more than a Skip Bayless music video. To the extent that logic's valid at all, it's valid for ANY QB, which is one of many reasons I said we were wasting our time and Mannings until we fixed the line so we could protect our QB and give him run support: Even PFM couldn't single-handely lead us to a championship, and the proof is he hasn't. Got pretty close for a one-dimensional one-man offense, but he can't walk on water nor between raindrops (nor blitzers.)

Be honest though: Manning didn't win that Vikings game; everyone ELSE won it, and he was just along for the ride.

Manning didn't make a 72 yd TD run: Hillman and the line did all that after Manning made a rugby toss; I could do that.

Manning had ONE nice THROW to get us into the red zone (with the help of a penalty) on our first second half drive, but only because the line finally gave him FOREVER to throw without even a hint of pressure, so he could step into a high speed precision deep strike: That DRIVE (rather than a single PLAY) was all about Kubiaks playcalling maintaining the variety and balance to keep the D completely unbalanced, and the 1 yd TD pass to an uncovered Owen Daniels? Pretty sure me, you, my wife and probably even my mom make that throw, too.

The rest of our scores (i.e. 3 FGs) are mostly down to an All Pro WR and another who SHOULD be leaping for lots of jump balls and diving for lots of low ones. Meanwhile, we were at the edge of McManus' range just before the half when Manning threw one of those "high percentage" quick outs to a defender who ran it back 50 yds (because Manning's slower than Chris Harris, so are our linemen, and our WRs were sprinting the wrong way 20 yds downfield) to set up a Vikings TD. Between that and the other Int Manning gift-wrapped 13 pts for Minnesota in a game we won by just 3.

So, fine, "all he does is win." Osweiler won Sunday, too, and was about as big a factor in doing so. Again, none of that's to say Manning's finally through, but if the protection and run support remains as adequate as it was Sunday (let alone improves) and he's still throwing more wobblers, floaters and dirtballs than strikes, THEN he's done, yeah. People have been predicting his demise since he got here; each week there'd be 2-3 bad passes (because he's human) and a few doubters would declare him done while everyone else told them to shut up, then he'd launch a dozen or two strikes and they would.

Now the balance of passes (and red faces) has shifted the other way though, and unless he can correct again we're watching an ignominious final season.

[Simple Jaded]

You win.

[Joel]

You win.
Well, again, I'm still unsure whether Manning's out of gas or just out of patience with his lines inability to protect him OR get our RBs enough push to put him in 2nd and 6 and 3nd and 3 rather than 2nd and 20 or 3rd and 12. They've had ONE decent game; if they revert to playing like the first three it doesn't matter WHAT Manning does or CAN, and he'll keep on rushing throws as the pocket collapses at the snap on 3rd and 22. But if everyone else keeps doing their job and he keeps not doing his, I'll be out of non-Manning explanations.

[Yashahla17]

Those arguments have been around longer than we've had Manning, Sanders a couple All Pro guards or Kubiaks playbook; if that logic was invalid then, it's even more so since the TEAM's improved a LOT. I mean, Decker's not bad, but he's no Sanders, no one will ever mistake Kuper (let alone Beadles; "pumped up FB" I think you called him?) for Mathis or Vasquez and I'm confident most people would agree Kubiak and Dennisons offensive game plans and playcalls are worlds better than Fox and Gases (or even Fox and McCoys.)

So excusing Mannings recent performance requires more than a Skip Bayless music video. To the extent that logic's valid at all, it's valid for ANY QB, which is one of many reasons I said we were wasting our time and Mannings until we fixed the line so we could protect our QB and give him run support: Even PFM couldn't single-handely lead us to a championship, and the proof is he hasn't. Got pretty close for a one-dimensional one-man offense, but he can't walk on water nor between raindrops (nor blitzers.)

Be honest though: Manning didn't win that Vikings game; everyone ELSE won it, and he was just along for the ride.

Manning didn't make a 72 yd TD run: Hillman and the line did all that after Manning made a rugby toss; I could do that.

Manning had ONE nice THROW to get us into the red zone (with the help of a penalty) on our first second half drive, but only because the line finally gave him FOREVER to throw without even a hint of pressure, so he could step into a high speed precision deep strike: That DRIVE (rather than a single PLAY) was all about Kubiaks playcalling maintaining the variety and balance to keep the D completely unbalanced, and the 1 yd TD pass to an uncovered Owen Daniels? Pretty sure me, you, my wife and probably even my mom make that throw, too.

The rest of our scores (i.e. 3 FGs) are mostly down to an All Pro WR and another who SHOULD be leaping for lots of jump balls and diving for lots of low ones. Meanwhile, we were at the edge of McManus' range just before the half when Manning threw one of those "high percentage" quick outs to a defender who ran it back 50 yds (because Manning's slower than Chris Harris, so are our linemen, and our WRs were sprinting the wrong way 20 yds downfield) to set up a Vikings TD. Between that and the other Int Manning gift-wrapped 13 pts for Minnesota in a game we won by just 3.

So, fine, "all he does is win." Osweiler won Sunday, too, and was about as big a factor in doing so. Again, none of that's to say Manning's finally through, but if the protection and run support remains as adequate as it was Sunday (let alone improves) and he's still throwing more wobblers, floaters and dirtballs than strikes, THEN he's done, yeah. People have been predicting his demise since he got here; each week there'd be 2-3 bad passes (because he's human) and a few doubters would declare him done while everyone else told them to shut up, then he'd launch a dozen or two strikes and they would.

Now the balance of passes (and red faces) has shifted the other way though, and unless he can correct again we're watching an ignominious final season.

Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.

[Simple Jaded]

Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.
You don't think the pistol has helped Manning?

We get it, you don't like Manning, and I personally hate/despise the Shitgun and Pistol, but denying that it's helped him is just stupid.

[Joel]

Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.
You'd rather see a talented but raw player with 4 years of rust run for his life behind our Swiss cheese line than watch a first ballot HoFer do it? Ask David Carr how well that "develops" young QBs; if by "develop" we mean "deeply scars for life," that's a good approach. We talk all the time about QBs needing a "mental clock" to know how long they have before they MUST get the pass off to avoid a sack, even if they can't actually SEE defenders closing in at the time: You don't want your franchise QB setting his clock by a line that rarely protects their QB >2 seconds (if that.)

I still think much of the problem is that line's reset MANNINGS clock to My Life Saving Time, but once we get the line in shape he can "fall back" to his normal rhythm far more easily than a guy making his first NFL starts, because Manning spent most of his career in that rhythm; he's not still trying to FIND it. Regardless, until the line's at least slightly below average, it doesn't matter who we send back there to try throwing wherever they can just ahead of a sack, just as it doesn't matter which back we send out to get repeatedly gangtackled at the handoff.

ALL that's been true "since week 9" of 2010, so Manning looking bad the last ½ a year is less an indictment than Manning look good the previous 2½ years is a tribute. Expect no more from Oz or anyone.

[Cugel]

Well, again, I'm still unsure whether Manning's out of gas or just out of patience with his lines inability to protect him OR get our RBs enough push to put him in 2nd and 6 and 3nd and 3 rather than 2nd and 20 or 3rd and 12. They've had ONE decent game; if they revert to playing like the first three it doesn't matter WHAT Manning does or CAN, and he'll keep on rushing throws as the pocket collapses at the snap on 3rd and 22. But if everyone else keeps doing their job and he keeps not doing his, I'll be out of non-Manning explanations.

Well, the jury is now back in on that argument. We have "lots of non-Manning explanations" starting with an OL that can't block a sunbeam.

43 yards rushing on 18 attempts for a 2.4 yard average and zero TDs. Totally stuffed in the red-zone. No running game = max blitz on Peyton.

Here's what Kubiak has to say:


"We've got to play a (heck) of a lot better. We've got to play better offensively. The sad thing is we do some good stuff and we don't finish anything. That's what's disappointing. And then it all gets back to (Manning), and that's not fair. We've got to get better on the football. We've got to get better protecting him, and if we do those things, we'll play better."

Peyton was only sacked once, so what is Kubiak talking about when he says we have to protect him better? Answer: they have to give him more time to throw.

[Yashahla17]

You don't think the pistol has helped Manning?

We get it, you don't like Manning, and I personally hate/despise the Shitgun and Pistol, but denying that it's helped him is just stupid.

If helping is another zero touchdowns and two picks then yes its helped. The thing is this sudden goofy offense is nothing theve ran all otas and camp lol. It helps nobody.

[Yashahla17]

You'd rather see a talented but raw player with 4 years of rust run for his life behind our Swiss cheese line than watch a first ballot HoFer do it? Ask David Carr how well that "develops" young QBs; if by "develop" we mean "deeply scars for life," that's a good approach. We talk all the time about QBs needing a "mental clock" to know how long they have before they MUST get the pass off to avoid a sack, even if they can't actually SEE defenders closing in at the time: You don't want your franchise QB setting his clock by a line that rarely protects their QB >2 seconds (if that.)

I still think much of the problem is that line's reset MANNINGS clock to My Life Saving Time, but once we get the line in shape he can "fall back" to his normal rhythm far more easily than a guy making his first NFL starts, because Manning spent most of his career in that rhythm; he's not still trying to FIND it. Regardless, until the line's at least slightly below average, it doesn't matter who we send back there to try throwing wherever they can just ahead of a sack, just as it doesn't matter which back we send out to get repeatedly gangtackled at the handoff.

ALL that's been true "since week 9" of 2010, so Manning looking bad the last ½ a year is less an indictment than Manning look good the previous 2½ years is a tribute. Expect no more from Oz or anyone.

David carr was a coward. His little brother has more heart than big bro.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
You'd rather see a talented but raw player with 4 years of rust run for his life behind our Swiss cheese line than watch a first ballot HoFer do it? Ask David Carr how well that "develops" young QBs; if by "develop" we mean "deeply scars for life," that's a good approach. We talk all the time about QBs needing a "mental clock" to know how long they have before they MUST get the pass off to avoid a sack, even if they can't actually SEE defenders closing in at the time: You don't want your franchise QB setting his clock by a line that rarely protects their QB >2 seconds (if that.)

I still think much of the problem is that line's reset MANNINGS clock to My Life Saving Time, but once we get the line in shape he can "fall back" to his normal rhythm far more easily than a guy making his first NFL starts, because Manning spent most of his career in that rhythm; he's not still trying to FIND it. Regardless, until the line's at least slightly below average, it doesn't matter who we send back there to try throwing wherever they can just ahead of a sack, just as it doesn't matter which back we send out to get repeatedly gangtackled at the handoff.

ALL that's been true "since week 9" of 2010, so Manning looking bad the last ½ a year is less an indictment than Manning look good the previous 2½ years is a tribute. Expect no more from Oz or anyone.

Basically, this.

For some reason fans just want to blame the QB when it is all on the OL.

Maybe if the Broncos had Aaron Rogers this offense would be better. But, take a look at what Russell Wilson is doing with the 2-3 Seahawks? They are #1 in the NFL at rushing, but 26th at passing - worse than Peyton Manning. And that's the most mobile QB in football.

When your OL can't pass-block your QB looks bad.

[Joel]

Well, the jury is now back in on that argument. We have "lots of non-Manning explanations" starting with an OL that can't block a sunbeam.

43 yards rushing on 18 attempts for a 2.4 yard average and zero TDs. Totally stuffed in the red-zone. No running game = max blitz on Peyton.

Here's what Kubiak has to say:

Peyton was only sacked once, so what is Kubiak talking about when he says we have to protect him better? Answer: they have to give him more time to throw.
Got nothin' but a QFT. "If [the line] revert[s]... it doesn't matter WHAT Manning does or CAN." Well, they DID, so it doesn't.

[Joel]

David carr was a coward. His little brother has more heart than big bro.
YOU eat 76 sacks your rookie year, then show me how brave you are; he needed the heart of a lion just to report for CAMP the next season. The dude was SACKED OVER 250 TIMES IN 5 SEASONS, and the only reason it wasn't MORE is because he missed ¼ of 2003 (gee, I wonder why.) And THAT set his mental clock for his CAREER. Drafting a QB before his pass protection is for FANTASY football teams (and kids.)

[7DnBrnc53]

YOU eat 76 sacks your rookie year, then show me how brave you are; he needed the heart of a lion just to report for CAMP the next season. The dude was SACKED OVER 250 TIMES IN 5 SEASONS, and the only reason it wasn't MORE is because he missed ¼ of 2003 (gee, I wonder why.) And THAT set his mental clock for his CAREER. Drafting a QB before his pass protection is for FANTASY football teams (and kids.)

Carr is the poster child for my philosophy: If you are expansion (or at expansion level like the 79 49ers or 08 Dolphins were), you build up the O-lines and D-lines first, or you take a defensive playmaker if there aren't suitable players at LT or DL.

For example, in 99, the Browns should have either traded down with New Orleans (getting the windfall for Ricky Williams), or drafted Champ Bailey #1 overall (defensive playmaker). They ruined Couch just like Houston ruined David Carr.

[Slick]

Basically, this.

For some reason fans just want to blame the QB when it is all on the OL.

Maybe if the Broncos had Aaron Rogers this offense would be better. But, take a look at what Russell Wilson is doing with the 2-3 Seahawks? They are #1 in the NFL at rushing, but 26th at passing - worse than Peyton Manning. And that's the most mobile QB in football.

When your OL can't pass-block your QB looks bad.

Is it really ALL on the OL? Does a QB who can't threaten a defense with some downfield throws bear any responsibility for the OL facing more stacked boxes than ever? The offensive struggles are obviously not completely Manning's fault but you fail to take into account this point. It's hard on any OL when defenses don't respect a deep threat. The run game suffers and the short to intermediate stuff, which is/was Manning's bread and butter become more difficult.

[Cugel]

Got nothin' but a QFT. "If [the line] revert[s]... it doesn't matter WHAT Manning does or CAN." Well, they DID, so it doesn't.

I'm not attacking your statement Joel. You were right. If the OL plays worse the offense will look even worse. They did and it did.

I'm merely pointing out that the converse of your statement about "reasons other than Peyton Manning" to blame is coming true.

If the OL was blocking well, running the ball well, and Peyton was still throwing picks then we have no excuses. It's all on him. There are plenty of QBs in this league we can say that about - guys with decent OLs, a decent running game, but who are making bad throws. Peyton isn't one of those QBs.

[ShaneFalco]

ridiculous. I have seen Manning make basic mistakes this season, that i have never ever seen him make before, or never thought i would ever see him make. They are both struggling.

[Cugel]

Is it really ALL on the OL? Does a QB who can't threaten a defense with some downfield throws bear any responsibility for the OL facing more stacked boxes than ever? The offensive struggles are obviously not completely Manning's fault but you fail to take into account this point. It's hard on any OL when defenses don't respect a deep threat. The run game suffers and the short to intermediate stuff, which is/was Manning's bread and butter become more difficult.

Of course that's true Peyton can't connect deep passes. But WHY can't Peyton throw deep? Answer: he's overthrowing his WRs. Why? Because he's having to throw too early, and he can't wait for them to get open deep. Why? Because his OL can't give him 3 seconds to throw, or even 2 seconds most plays.

Why is that? Because defenses are ignoring the run. Why? Because the Broncos can't run because their OL can't open running lanes.

So, the play-action doesn't work at all. If play-action doesn't work, then the defenses just blitz Manning, the LBs and S's aren't hesitating at all when Peyton fakes the hand-off. They walk safeties up into the box, safe in the knowledge that Peyton can't throw downfield because his OL isn't giving him time to connect on those throws.

Now, if the Broncos had a guy like Aaron Rogers who can make plays with his feet to buy time, then throw a 30 yard strike off his back foot, then fine. But, there are damn few QBs in the NFL who can make up for putrid OL play like Rogers can, and Denver does not have a QB on the roster with remotely that kind of talent.

Only a better run-blocking OL can help this situation. Run the ball effectively and the LBs and S's must respect play-action. They freeze for a second and that allows Peyton to have time to throw down-field. If he can complete a few deep balls, the safeties have to back off and play deeper. Then the underneath stuff can open up - which also helps the running game, and round and round.

But, it all starts with the OL. You win football games from the inside out: offensive and defensive lines. Block and tackle. It might not be glamorous but that's how championships are won.

As an example: Does Seattle look smart right now trading pro-bowl C Max Unger for TE Jimmy Graham? Hell no! From PFF:


30. Seattle Seahawks (19th)

Pass blocking rank: 29th

Run blocking rank: 28th

Penalties ranks: 24th

Stud: None of the starters have earned a positive grade this year, which is telling. But credit to Drew Nowak (-2.8), who hasn’t looked like a complete liability.

Dud: Unfortunately, Justin Britt (-14.8) hasn’t looked any better at guard than he did at tackle.

Summary: It’s almost like the Seahawks have a contempt for their offensive line. Either that, or they’ve got a little too much confidence in the powers of Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch, because not only have they seemingly turned a blind eye towards the unit, they opted to get rid of its best player (Max Unger) last year.

That's why the Seahawks are 2-3 despite having one of the two best defenses in football, plus an elusive running QB in Russell Wilson, plus a stud RB in Marshawn Lynch.

[Joel]

I'm not attacking your statement Joel. You were right. If the OL plays worse the offense will look even worse. They did and it did.

I'm merely pointing out that the converse of your statement about "reasons other than Peyton Manning" to blame is coming true.

If the OL was blocking well, running the ball well, and Peyton was still throwing picks then we have no excuses. It's all on him. There are plenty of QBs in this league we can say that about - guys with decent OLs, a decent running game, but who are making bad throws. Peyton isn't one of those QBs.
Yeah, no worries, I understood what you meant. One of many reasons I'd like to see the line consistently run and pass block well is to isolate and identify just how much Manning HAS lost to age, so it's more clear whether we need to just move on ASAP or simply fix our Swiss cheese line. Until he can count on the line he can't stop trying to COMPENSATE for it, which means a lot of rushed/short throws. We can talk about him throwing "rainbows" on deep passes, but here's the deal:

At the Combine, Sanders ran a 4.41 WITHOUT pads; how long does he need to run 40 yds downfield WITH pads? Hint: >2-3 seconds, so if Manning MUST get the ball out that quick, all he can do is lob it and hope Sanders has time to run under it; so far that's been hit and miss. I realize you probably get that, too, but it needs to be said because so many people refuse to allow themselves anything more than a superficial understanding of what's happening on the field. To them, I propose a simple experiment:

For the next few games, block out everything else when we have the ball and just count individual pass rushers/run defenders each play. Instead of watching for cuts and stiff arms, or strikes and diving catches, focus on where and how many defenders are getting into our backfield, and why. I believe what you'll find is an offensive line that regular outnumbers vanilla pass rushes they STILL can't stop, leaving lots of people free to double cover DT and a safety or two to play robber if Manning dares pop a quick prayer deep.

EDIT: You not only realize the cause of "rainbows" but said the same thing as I was typing it. Seriously, ya'll, this isn't hard except for people who simply refuse to pay attention.