The Good and the Bad: Week 3

[BroncoWave]

I missed the first half of this game as well as part of the 4th quarter, so I don't have much to say on this game, but I'll give input on what I saw.

Good:

Manning- By far his best game of the season from what I saw. The pistol definitely worked

DT/Sanders- Huge games by both of them. They were abusing poor Darius Slay.

Run Defense- Just looking at the stats they really stifled their running game. Nice to see.

Talib- For having to cover CJ 1-on-1 all game, he did about as well as you could expect. That's huge for our defense not to have to devote two defenders to him.

Bad:

Running game- Looks like we still have some work to do here.

Discipline- Still some stupid penalties on defense that we need to get rid of.


Like I said, not much from me on this one since I missed about half of the game. Would be interested to hear other thoughts.

[CrazyHorse]

Good:

We won

Bad:

Our offensive line.

[underrated29]

Good:

When we had to score we did.
Defense is so sick. Lots of turnovers and sacks. Our pass D is insanely awesome!
Paradis- I'll have to review but he seemed to have a great game from what I remember
Hemannuel high painting the ball and taking it away from the defender.

Bad:

Online. Still can't sustain blocks. Run blocking is non existent.
DT dropping passes, especially in crucial situations or easy simple catches Darius watts would make.
Offense as a whole.
Run game as a whole
Not playing tight man and bump when Stanford decides to just. Take 2 step drops and throw.

[tripp]

The good:

The defense continues to prove it's one of, if not, the best in the NFL.

Peyton Manning looks night and day better. He had no glove on his hand and he could apply a bit more zip on the ball. He went 31 completions - 42 attempts. 324 yards, 2 TD's and a deflected INT.

I think if there was one thing that helped with the extra couple days rest, it was the O-line. They looked like miles apart from their previous 2 games. Obviously still no where close to where we want to be as the run game is not existent, but it's better.

I would've said Bennie Fowler was the most pleasant surprise tonight, but I think the O-line wins that. But Fowler looked amazing when given the opportunity, and had taken full advantage of every opportunity when given. Happy for him, and looks like he's ahead of Cody Latimer in the depth chart.

CJ Anderson doesn't have a concussion which is nice, but I'd like to see him not lower his helmet anymore as I find that's just asking for trouble.

McManus still money.

The deep pass has worked every time we tried it. One to Demaryius and the other to Emmanuel. Both under thrown, nothing to do with Peyton's arm strength, as he's over thrown both guys the last two games.

The bad:


Still using the defense as a crutch to support the offense as it can't get going too quickly. Bailed us out on numerous occasions, when I felt if they didn't we could've lost this game by 2 scores.

Run game still isn't there. Was thinking earlier in the game, what running back in the NFL could we place on our team that would actually contribute significantly? What I'm saying is, the O-line stinks at run blocking, and I don't think you could put many running back's into our team and expect them to put up huge numbers... with exception of maybe Adrian Peterson.

We can't break tackles and that's hurting the run game.

DT for as clutch as he was towards the end of 2nd quarter with the TD, he had dropped quite a few passes that would've kept the offense going. I wouldn't normally be too hung up on that if it was Bennie Fowler, or Norwood, but this is our elite receiver who should have made some of the catches, but can't be mad because he came up big when he needed to.

[Joel]

I would've said Bennie Fowler was the most pleasant surprise tonight, but I think the O-line wins that. But Fowler looked amazing when given the opportunity, and had taken full advantage of every opportunity when given. Happy for him, and looks like he's ahead of Cody Latimer in the depth chart.

That's a great point I've been overlooking in my own line rants: Fowler impressed me so much that, as DT kept dropping balls, I found myself wondering why we didn't go back to him. Norwood didn't look bad (even made something out of one of those bubble screens that no longer fool anyone) but Fowler was money on the ONE drive we kept feeding him--then we stopped, and never resumed. I don't know if it's Mannings familiarity and trust or what, but he'd be my #3 from here on until/unless he played himself out of the job.

[aberdien]

When do we start worrying about how terrible the run game is?

[GEM]

I was texting my boss and wondered why we went away from Fowler. Yes pretty damn good.

[GEM]

The bad...if there was ever a worse reffed game, I don't remember it. It was so consistently bad, call after call.

[tripp]

That's a great point I've been overlooking in my own line rants: Fowler impressed me so much that, as DT kept dropping balls, I found myself wondering why we didn't go back to him. Norwood didn't look bad (even made something out of one of those bubble screens that no longer fool anyone) but Fowler was money on the ONE drive we kept feeding him--then we stopped, and never resumed. I don't know if it's Mannings familiarity and trust or what, but he'd be my #3 from here on until/unless he played himself out of the job.

I agree, I'd like to see him become #3 receiver. I don't think Norwood to be a #3 receiver, he's a good positional receiver when needed, but Bennie Fowler looks like a mini DT. Big and fast. Would be nice to see him line up on the outside with Emmanuel playing slot. I say give him more looks against Minnesota.

[tripp]

When do we start worrying about how terrible the run game is?

Tomorrow morning, enjoy the win.

[Ravage!!!]

The Good: Again, the defense and Sanders on offense.

The "better" : The OL. They didn't exactly have a stellar DL to go against, but it was better. Still bad, but better, except in running the ball.

The Bad: Everything else. The run game is the worst I've ever seen it in Denver, and I can't believe for a moment that we thought CJ Anderson was an answer to our RB problem. He's not good.

Manning isn't scaring any teams from stacking the box, that's why its so tough to run.

Glad we got a gimme and an additional attempt at that FG, or this game could have easily turned out differently.

the REALLY bad:
STILL trying to roll Manning out on a bootleg. For the love of god, this is sooooo bad.

Our TEs. For anyone STILL trying to say " but these guys are better for the scheme".... go blow it out your ear. Owens is easily covered by any LB on the other team, and done so pretty easily. Its just incredible how we didn't make a better effort to replace Welker for the slot, and find a TE that actually can be found on 3rd down.

Speaking of 3rd down, that category goes here. Third down conversions are really really really bad. Seems the WRs have the dropsies, and Thomas is leading the pack.

The REALLY REALLY bad:

THe out-come when we have to play a team like Pittsburgh or NE.

[Joel]

When do we start worrying about how terrible the run game is?
2005 ;)

[Joel]

I agree, I'd like to see him become #3 receiver. I don't think Norwood to be a #3 receiver, he's a good positional receiver when needed, but Bennie Fowler looks like a mini DT. Big and fast. Would be nice to see him line up on the outside with Emmanuel playing slot. I say give him more looks against Minnesota.

Yeah, good take. Norwood's not BAD, and has usually performed decently when targeted. But Fowler was a difference maker on the ONE drive we used him. Maybe that was just Kubes testing everyone in game conditions to get a decent sample size for establishing the long term #3; they kept saying HE said they'd all play (can't recall seeing Caldwell, but he has the most existing record of the non-#1/2s.) If that's what it was though: Case closed.

[NightTrainLayne]

The Good:

We won by two scores!

Manning completed a bootleg roll-out pass!

The defense is nasty. I love all the take-aways.

The Bad:

The O-line still can't run block. But we took a step forward here. They are getting better, which is good.

Penalties. Can't continue to give other teams so many extra chances, and yards through penalties.

[Bronco4ever]

The Good:

We won by two scores!

Manning completed a bootleg roll-out pass!

The defense is nasty. I love all the take-aways.

The Bad:

The O-line still can't run block. But we took a step forward here. They are getting better, which is good.

Penalties. Can't continue to give other teams so many extra chances, and yards through penalties.

Your avy was the best part of the game.

[DenBronx]

The Good:

We won by two scores!

Manning completed a bootleg roll-out pass!

The defense is nasty. I love all the take-aways.

The Bad:

The O-line still can't run block. But we took a step forward here. They are getting better, which is good.

Penalties. Can't continue to give other teams so many extra chances, and yards through penalties.

Your avy was the best part of the game.



I get no credit for the photo? Lol

[NightTrainLayne]

I get no credit for the photo? Lol

No. .. Why would you get credit for the photo? LOL

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm still concerned about throws outside the numbers. The only ones completed were jump balls.

[DenBronx]

I get no credit for the photo? Lol

No. .. Why would you get credit for the photo? LOL

Maybe because I took it and posted it in gameday thread? My tired ass got up off the couch, paused it, took it and posted it on here for everyones enjoyment.

But nooooo someone else gets the credit. I see how it is.

#chopliver

[Dapper Dan]

When do we start worrying about how terrible the run game is?

I started to before it was cool.

[DenBronx]

When do we start worrying about how terrible the run game is?

I started to before it was cool.

Yeah I remember...you and Peter Jennings were there.

[Joel]

The Good:

We won by two scores!

Manning completed a bootleg roll-out pass!

The defense is nasty. I love all the take-aways.

Agreed; turnover ratios correlate to wins more than any other stat (except points, naturally) and aren't just dumb luck: They're a reflection of good coaches teaching sound fundamentals, especially by ensuring all players are focused, alert and doing all the little things right all the time, until the big things become almost reflexive. Refective of reflex, if you like.


The Bad:

The O-line still can't run block. But we took a step forward here. They are getting better, which is good.

Did we? Protection was better, but Manning was in pistol a lot, and moving like the general consensus said he "can't." But we averaged 2.2/att on the ground against a D 18th in rushing average. Baltimore's 14th and KC 11th; what are we gonna do against Pitt?


Penalties. Can't continue to give other teams so many extra chances, and yards through penalties.

Can't argue that, though a few were ticky-tacky (the PI on Harris in particular, and I'm getting really sick of roughing the passer calls every time a defender so much as brushes a QBs helmet with a finger.)

[TXBRONC]

I missed the first half of this game as well as part of the 4th quarter, so I don't have much to say on this game, but I'll give input on what I saw.

Good:

Manning- By far his best game of the season from what I saw. The pistol definitely worked

DT/Sanders- Huge games by both of them. They were abusing poor Darius Slay.

Run Defense- Just looking at the stats they really stifled their running game. Nice to see.

Talib- For having to cover CJ 1-on-1 all game, he did about as well as you could expect. That's huge for our defense not to have to devote two defenders to him.

Bad:

Running game- Looks like we still have some work to do here.

Discipline- Still some stupid penalties on defense that we need to get rid of.


Like I said, not much from me on this one since I missed about half of the game. Would be interested to hear other thoughts.

Talib did an excellent job against Megatron. 8 catches for 77 yards and no touchdowns was a sight to see and Talib did that without any help.

[TXBRONC]

Agreed; turnover ratios correlate to wins more than any other stat (except points, naturally) and aren't just dumb luck: They're a reflection of good coaches teaching sound fundamentals, especially by ensuring all players are focused, alert and doing all the little things right all the time, until the big things become almost reflexive. Refective of reflex, if you like.



Did we? Protection was better, but Manning was in pistol a lot, and moving like the general consensus said he "can't." But we averaged 2.2/att on the ground against a D 18th in rushing average. Baltimore's 14th and KC 11th; what are we gonna do against Pitt?



Can't argue that, though a few were ticky-tacky (the PI on Harris in particular, and I'm getting really sick of roughing the passer calls every time a defender so much as brushes a QBs helmet with a finger.)

Why are you worrying about a game that is 12 weeks away? I honestly think that is kind of silly. I agree with NTL the running game took a small step forward and from what Kubiak and Elway they're hoping that by the team gets to that part of the season that the running game should be working.

[Davii]

We won, by two scores. The offense looked better. The Defense is for real, they are balling.

The run game must improve, the OL must continue to improve.

[TXBRONC]

We won, by two scores. The offense looked better. The Defense is for real, they are balling.

The run game must improve, the OL must continue to improve.

I hope it's not me just being a fan but I think I'm some improvement. Pass protection was good and there were some good runs they just enough of them and the ones they had were offset by several runs that netted nothing or next to nothing.

[VonDoom]

Obviously, we have to run the ball better. Manning was actually throwing downfield a bit in this game and Detroit is no powerhouse against the run anymore, so there's really no excuse for that ineptitude. I'd like to see some more Juwan if he's healthy next week, because he looked like he wanted to run right through dudes out there.

[Northman]

Talib did an excellent job against Megatron. 8 catches for 77 yards and no touchdowns was a sight to see and Talib did that without any help.

Talib island

[Northman]

The Good:

1) last night proved that Manning works much better from the gun and feels more comfortable. He is just not suited for a straight up Kubes system, so its great that Kubes and Manning found a mixture that works.

2) Saw some improvement with pass blocking which was huge right now because of the lack of run game.

3) Defense is incredible. The fact this defense not only slows down offenses they can force turnovers which has been a problem for us the last few years.

4) Heart: Unlike last year this team shows heart for an entire 60 minutes of football.


The Bad:

1) Running game needs a boost and right now i think its going to have to come from Hillman. CJ just seems hesistant and unsure of himself and both he and Juwan need to keep their heads up when going into the defensive line. Would hate to see either player have a career threatening injury because they are not keeping their heads up. I would also like to see us use the sweeps a little more to for CJ and Hillman as the run blocking is not at its best in lanes right now.

2) Playcalling: Still seeing some pretty unimaginative and uncreative playcalling out there at times. Need to stretch the field more to loosen up the defenses and keep them honest.

3) Turnovers: Got to limit our own turnovers and start taking advantage of the type of defense we have. Cant leave other teams in the game because sooner or later its going to bite us in the ass.

4) Receiver focus: While DT made some great plays last night he also dropped some easy passes that would of sustained some drives. DT is talented but he is starting to remind me of TO where he catches the difficult passes but drops the easy ones. And he needs to take care of the football better.

5) Penalties: Way to many penalties on both sides of the ball and a good portion of them on defense were very dumb and undisciplined mistakes. Need to correct that.

[CoachChaz]

The bad...Bruton in coverage. When forced to cover ANYONE, his name should be changed to Brutal.

[BroncoWave]

The bad...Bruton in coverage. When forced to cover ANYONE, his name should be changed to Brutal.

That was a sweet pick he made to save the game though.

[TXBRONC]

Talib island

That's as close as anyone is going to come to shutting down Megatron.

[Northman]

The bad...Bruton in coverage. When forced to cover ANYONE, his name should be changed to Brutal.

He did miss some plays but he also made some.

[CoachChaz]

He did miss some plays but he also made some.

I never doubt his ability in the run game, but every week he looks miserable covering TE's. The pick was a good play on a receiver he wasnt covering. Maybe that's the key.

[Dapper Dan]

I never doubt his ability in the run game, but every week he looks miserable covering TE's. The pick was a good play on a receiver he wasnt covering. Maybe that's the key.

Don't cover anyone. It's genius. They'll never see it coming.

[Northman]

I never doubt his ability in the run game, but every week he looks miserable covering TE's. The pick was a good play on a receiver he wasnt covering. Maybe that's the key.

Well, i remember him actually breaking up a pass intended for Ebron late in the game before his INT but also remember him getting burned by Ebron earlier. But i remember the commentators stating that it was a good play by him breaking up the intended pass because they said had that been a LB it would of been completed for a big gain. Not sure how good Bruton is on the average but i felt overall he did a good job last night but i could be wrong.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, i remember him actually breaking up a pass intended for Ebron late in the game before his INT but also remember him getting burned by Ebron earlier. But i remember the commentators stating that it was a good play by him breaking up the intended pass because they said had that been a LB it would of been completed for a big gain. Not sure how good Bruton is on the average but i felt overall he did a good job last night but i could be wrong.

He's made bit plays in all three games. Everyone is going to get beat sometimes, that part of the job as a DB/safety. I think he's doign pretty well. Kelce TORCHED Houston.

[EastCoastBronco]

At the end of the game Collinsworth mentioned that Stafford and Megatron weren't playing their ususal game of heave it up high and let Megatron come down with it.
The reason for that, in my opinion, is self explanatory.
We are generating such a constant wave of pressure that no QB is going to have time to step back and heave it up for their favorite big receiver to "go up and get it".
Even with the blocking adjustments Detroit made in the second half, Miller and Ware were in Stafford's face quickly.
This defence reminds me a lot of our 97/98 teams in terms of pressure, aggressiveness and ability to produce turnovers.
Combine that with our hugely improved ability to stop the run (other than Jamaal Charles) and I see us leading the league in all major defensive categories this season.
Once the O works out their issues, and I think they took a major step last night towards that, we are going to destroy teams.
I'm very optimistic about the rest of this season.

P.S. I think what Bruton lacks in skill, he makes up for it tenfold with heart and aggressiveness. That guy has earned his right to play on the D.

[Dapper Dan]

At the end of the game Collinsworth mentioned that Stafford and Megatron weren't playing their ususal game of heave it up high and let Megatron come down with it.
The reason for that, in my opinion, is self explanatory.
We are generating such a constant wave of pressure that no QB is going to have time to step back and heave it up for their favorite big receiver to "go up and get it".
Even with the blocking adjustments Detroit made in the second half, Miller and Ware were in Stafford's face quickly.
This defence reminds me a lot of our 97/98 teams in terms of pressure, aggressiveness and ability to produce turnovers.
Combine that with our hugely improved ability to stop the run (other than Jamaal Charles) and I see us leading the league in all major defensive categories this season.
Once the O works out their issues, and I think they took a major step last night towards that, we are going to destroy teams.
I'm very optimistic about the rest of this season.

P.S. I think what Bruton lacks in skill, he makes up for it tenfold with heart and aggressiveness. That guy has earned his right to play on the D.

I thought he was saying they aren't playing like that this season.

[NightTrainLayne]

Maybe because I took it and posted it in gameday thread? My tired ass got up off the couch, paused it, took it and posted it on here for everyones enjoyment.

But nooooo someone else gets the credit. I see how it is.

#chopliver

Maybe someone else also paused the game and took a pic, and never even visited the gameday thread. :)

[Dapper Dan]

Maybe someone else also paused the game and took a pic, and never even visited the gameday thread. :)

Does said person have Pot Roast as his adopted Bronco?

[NightTrainLayne]

Does said person have Pot Roast as his adopted Bronco?

Yes. Said person can barely get their avatard changed, much less update adopted Broncos to reflect such fickle things as the current roster.

[GEM]

Maybe someone else also paused the game and took a pic, and never even visited the gameday thread. :)

The pic was on Yahoo Sports last night too. :laugh:

[Davii]

The pic was on Yahoo Sports last night too. :laugh:

It's all over the net as of this morning. To think, NTL started something viral. Good job NTL.

[TXBRONC]

Well, i remember him actually breaking up a pass intended for Ebron late in the game before his INT but also remember him getting burned by Ebron earlier. But i remember the commentators stating that it was a good play by him breaking up the intended pass because they said had that been a LB it would of been completed for a big gain. Not sure how good Bruton is on the average but i felt overall he did a good job last night but i could be wrong.

How many safeties are out there that are great in coverage? Ward isn't particularly great in coverage he's probably better than Burton but I don't think I would want to make a living off the difference.

[NightTrainLayne]

It's all over the net as of this morning. To think, NTL started something viral. Good job NTL.

As long as you know that I'm the one that deserves credit for it.

[Joel]

The Good:

1) last night proved that Manning works much better from the gun and feels more comfortable. He is just not suited for a straight up Kubes system, so its great that Kubes and Manning found a mixture that works.

The core of Kubiaks system is not being so narrowly restricted it not only fails without a HoF QB, but demands a specific KIND of one-in-a-lifetime talent like Elway or Rodgers. It favors them, because designed to maximize ALL their many gifts, but if Kubiak can make subpar statues like Griese and Schaub Pro Bowlers, he won't make even a 39-year-old PFM a bum. He was always going to find an effective approach WITHIN his system, because that's what a great system does.


2) Saw some improvement with pass blocking which was huge right now because of the lack of run game.

It was better, but Manning helped them help him a LOT, with his feet as well as his mind and eyes. It's so frustrating to see this is a championship team virtually EVERYWHERE except for the minor detail of a line that hamstrings it's running AND passing. Especially after a couple full seasons of it already; we handed Kubiak and Dennison more work than I think even they can do in a single year.


3) Defense is incredible. The fact this defense not only slows down offenses they can force turnovers which has been a problem for us the last few years.

Night and day: #1 in TO differential, #2 in takeaways (1 behind the Jets.) And it's mostly the same personnel—apart from the COORDINATOR.


4) Heart: Unlike last year this team shows heart for an entire 60 minutes of football.

Well, *grin* y'know, that was always a "correctable mistake" *clap, clap*. Elway corrected it (and many others) last winter. ;)



The Bad:

1) Running game needs a boost and right now i think its going to have to come from Hillman. CJ just seems hesistant and unsure of himself and both he and Juwan need to keep their heads up when going into the defensive line. Would hate to see either player have a career threatening injury because they are not keeping their heads up. I would also like to see us use the sweeps a little more to for CJ and Hillman as the run blocking is not at its best in lanes right now.

A year ago the shoe was on the other foot, and each of the previous years it was on two entirely different pairs of feet. Our RBs hesitate for the same reason our QB rushes his throws, and swapping RBs can't fix that anymore than starting Oz would. About the only RB who might change things is Barry Sanders, but he's retired and his son's not draft eligible yet. That's a problem, because as long as we can't run, the pressure will remain entirely on Manning, who can't even use play action, because it's not credible.


2) Playcalling: Still seeing some pretty unimaginative and uncreative playcalling out there at times. Need to stretch the field more to loosen up the defenses and keep them honest.

Need time for even the fastest WRs to stretch the field, and for the QB to be confident HE'S got time to wait for, then set his feet and hit them. Long TD before the half looked good though, and the deep passes on our game-clinching drive. The more we do that the more Manning will default to trusting rather than distrusting his line, with commensurate results.


3) Turnovers: Got to limit our own turnovers and start taking advantage of the type of defense we have. Cant leave other teams in the game because sooner or later its going to bite us in the ass.

Best way to limit turnovers is not doing the thing that causes most of them: Passing. I could be wrong, but believe ALL our turnovers (4, IIRC) have been passes. Granted we throw more than we run, even by modern NFL standards, but not 4X more. We'll see far less pick-sixes if we throw less passes short, where most of our offense is behind anyone who makes an Int, who has little in front of him but a slow 39-year-old QB and our end zone. Kubiak and Manning both know all this, but until/unless we have a least an adequate run game it doesn't matter.


4) Receiver focus: While DT made some great plays last night he also dropped some easy passes that would of sustained some drives. DT is talented but he is starting to remind me of TO where he catches the difficult passes but drops the easy ones. And he needs to take care of the football better.

See above. Runners fumbled a little over 90 times all last year, and receivers a little over 80—plus a little over 300 Ints, and an undetermined number of strip-sacks. If you want to protect the ball, keep it on the ground; if you're willing to take passings greater risks, seek greater rewards than an above average 5-6 yd run that brings up 2nd/3rd down. All that said, DT has been too careless with the ball lately, an unwelcome flashback to 2012, and had too many drops for a #1 All Pro who just got a contract paying him more than any WR but Megatron.


5) Penalties: Way to many penalties on both sides of the ball and a good portion of them on defense were very dumb and undisciplined mistakes. Need to correct that.

Agreed. For all the good things our huge turnover differential says about Wade and his staff emphasizing disciplined fundamentals and alertness, the penalties suggest the opposite. Although the refs were truly abysmal last night; that PI on Harris was VERY ticky-tacky, and the rough on Miller for an unavoidable, and incidental and brief brush of Staffords helmet little better.

[Joel]

How many safeties are out there that are great in coverage? Ward isn't particularly great in coverage he's probably better than Burton but I don't think I would want to make a living off the difference.

Lots of safeties are great in coverage; we played one (and one of Kubiak and Wades former players) last night, and cut one two years ago to keep Rahim Moore: Now he (Adams, not Moore) is making Pro Bowls in Indy. However, IMHO, Ward's not better than Bruton in coverage: We brought him as a thumper, which is what he's been; he makes good tackles, and regularly comes up to stuff runners for minimal gains, even losses, but, again IMHO, his "coverage" too often consists of smacking WRs and TEs as they make the catch. Bruton plays the ball; Ward plays the man like it's still 1975.


Why are you worrying about a game that is 12 weeks away? I honestly think that is kind of silly. I agree with NTL the running game took a small step forward and from what Kubiak and Elway they're hoping that by the team gets to that part of the season that the running game should be working.

We had our LOWEST rushing average so far, against the WORST run D we've faced: <2.2 yds/att. Were it legal, we could just put Oz at C, have him snap it to himself and fall forward: His 2.2 yd height would average more. The blocking was better in the sense RBs were hit behind the line "merely" often instead of USUALLY, and we got solid surge on the goal line TD, but there were too many more plays like the end run where our LT tackled his own RB after 2 yds, then came up rubbing his elbow.

Our RBs fight for an extra yard or two when tackled, and that earns them—2 yds/att, because our line gives them JACK. If we could manage a yard or two of surge and THEN our RBs fought for an extra yard or two when tackled, we'd be up around 4 yds/att. And that's not just supposition: We know it's true because that's been the LEAGUE average annually for decades (it's eerie watching the NFL finish up at 4.2 yds/att nearly EVERY year, and 4.1 during the rare exceptions, but running's THAT reliable.)

I used Pitt as an example of a D with a top ten rushing average; we may be grateful it was the ONLY one I could find on our schedule. Because our average has DROPPED in each of our few games so far.

[I Eat Staples]

Every time Talib talks about himself and the defense, he mentions that they have a great DC. Wade is one of the best defensive coaches in football and you can tell his players love playing for him.

Just 3 games into the season, and Kubiak adapted his system to make Manning more comfortable while still allowing the stretches, bootlegs, power sets, etc. that are staples of Kubiak's system. That's smart and versatile coaching. I'm very happy to see that Kubiak isn't boneheadedly stubborn like so many coaches are.

This team plays with more heart and intensity than they have in years. Again, that's a reflection of the coaching staff. I'm very, very pleased with the job they've done so far.

[VonDoom]

That's as close as anyone is going to come to shutting down Megatron.

Cecil Lammey ‏@CecilLammey 14m14 minutes ago

#Broncos Aqib Talib limited Calvin Johnson severely after the catch. Mega ranked 94th this wk w/only 2.8 yds after the catch/reception

[DenBronx]

It's all over the net as of this morning. To think, NTL started something viral. Good job NTL.

As long as you know that I'm the one that deserves credit for it.


Pshhhh...now my pic is going viral because of NTL.

I....just...cant...win.

[DenBronx]

Maybe because I took it and posted it in gameday thread? My tired ass got up off the couch, paused it, took it and posted it on here for everyones enjoyment.

But nooooo someone else gets the credit. I see how it is.

#chopliver

Maybe someone else also paused the game and took a pic, and never even visited the gameday thread. :)


Impossible.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Other Good things I saw.

Fowler and Norwood - Great to have other WR's step up and do decently. Latimer and Caldwell I'm looking at you.
Kubiak finding ways to try and adapt his offense to Manning. The pistol seemed to work pretty well. Also the two roll outs looked way more natural this week.

The bad.

The OLine needs more time. They are still a work in progress. Hopefully the defense continues to play balls out and we can get the OLine better every week.
Penalties, way too many. The two PF's weren't as bad as last week, the PI on Harris was weak as was the false start that was really encroachment. They need to continue to improve. It's hard to win being in 1st and 20 all the time.
Play calling was a little predictable. The 4th and 1 was the only one that caught them off guard. Mix in some more 15-20 yard pass plays (if they can keep him alive), and some crossing plays where you take advantage of the YAC.

[tripp]

A little concerned how well Detroit countered our blitzes with screens and dump offs to their slot receivers and running backs and had a lot of success doing it.

[TXBRONC]

Lots of safeties are great in coverage; we played one (and one of Kubiak and Wades former players) last night, and cut one two years ago to keep Rahim Moore: Now he (Adams, not Moore) is making Pro Bowls in Indy. However, IMHO, Ward's not better than Bruton in coverage: We brought him as a thumper, which is what he's been; he makes good tackles, and regularly comes up to stuff runners for minimal gains, even losses, but, again IMHO, his "coverage" too often consists of smacking WRs and TEs as they make the catch. Bruton plays the ball; Ward plays the man like it's still 1975.



We had our LOWEST rushing average so far, against the WORST run D we've faced: <2.2 yds/att. Were it legal, we could just put Oz at C, have him snap it to himself and fall forward: His 2.2 yd height would average more. The blocking was better in the sense RBs were hit behind the line "merely" often instead of USUALLY, and we got solid surge on the goal line TD, but there were too many more plays like the end run where our LT tackled his own RB after 2 yds, then came up rubbing his elbow.

Our RBs fight for an extra yard or two when tackled, and that earns them—2 yds/att, because our line gives them JACK. If we could manage a yard or two of surge and THEN our RBs fought for an extra yard or two when tackled, we'd be up around 4 yds/att. And that's not just supposition: We know it's true because that's been the LEAGUE average annually for decades (it's eerie watching the NFL finish up at 4.2 yds/att nearly EVERY year, and 4.1 during the rare exceptions, but running's THAT reliable.)

I used Pitt as an example of a D with a top ten rushing average; we may be grateful it was the ONLY one I could find on our schedule. Because our average has DROPPED in each of our few games so far.

What does a lot safeties in coverage mean? That's relative.


Why would I feel grateful to you for what find is 12 weeks down the road? I'm not going whine about something that more two months away. You have no freaking what this team or the Steelers will look like in 12 week.

[Joel]

What does a lot safeties in coverage mean? That's relative.
Sure it's relative; "great" is subjective, and, even if it weren't, I don't know the precise number of NFL safeties who'd qualify. Less than should, IMHO, because there are fewer and fewer true frees; most teams seem to just use a pair of strongs and CALL one of them a "FS" even if all he does is thump runners for losses while he's hamfisted, loses deep balls in the lights, WRs blow by him. There are more than one or 1-2 safeties who average >1-2 Ints, >1-2 deflections and <6 TDs allowed/season; better? I haven't checked, but don't think Ward's among them; I think Bruton could be, plus he's an alert sure tackler.


Why would I feel grateful to you for what find is 12 weeks down the road? I'm not going whine about something that more two months away. You have no freaking what this team or the Steelers will look like in 12 week.
True, and I didn't mean you should thank me for knowing how to google, but that as long as we're rushing for <2.2 yds/att WE should be grateful there's only ONE top ten run D on our schedule (for now....)

[Dapper Dan]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

[Joel]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

The most annoying thing when that second part happens is constantly dreading what'll happen against a GOOD team while every comment about summons the fan police for daring to question our "great" team. 2012 was like that: Beat 13 teams, but only TWO had winning records, and one of THEM paid us back a month later by ending our season en route to THEIR championship. Kings Bengals had the distinction of being the only winning team we had a winning record against in 2012. But, y'know, 13-3, #1 seed etc. etc. and anyone who doubts us is a Negative Nancy.

Difference is, this is the seasons nadir, not its peak. We almost can't help getting better, at least on offense, and if our line comes together the D doesn't have to be as elite as it has thus far.

[VonDoom]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

The Ravens are the biggest surprise there, IMO. Losing Suggs really seems to have hurt them. I suspect they claw back to respectability at some point.

The Chiefs are still pretty good, so that will even out soon. They had to play us and Green Bay in back to back weeks. 1-2 is right where they should be.

[TXBRONC]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

I don't think the Ravens would be 0-3 if Suggs wasn't hurt.

The Lions were expected to solid this year and Chiefs could end up being a solid team.

Also the Chiefs and Ravens still have very good defenses.

[VonDoom]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

As an addendum to this, the combined records of the Packers opponents so far is 2-7 and the combined record of the Cardinals (who look like world beaters) opponents is 1-8, so ...

[pulse]

After reviewing the Detroit game, I think Minnesota will be another great test for our defense. I expect AP will still break a few long runs and still get his yards, but Denver should win the game. Right now it's all about continuing to improve our offensive line until November 1st. Then it gets real. We're going to have to put up some points to win that game. If we're still struggling to run the ball, Manning will have to be perfect or we'll lose.

[TXBRONC]

Joel sometimes the shoe fits.


The most annoying thing when that second part happens is constantly dreading what'll happen against a GOOD team while every comment about summons the fan police for daring to question our "great" team. 2012 was like that: Beat 13 teams, but only TWO had winning records, and one of THEM paid us back a month later by ending our season en route to THEIR championship. Kings Bengals had the distinction of being the only winning team we had a winning record against in 2012. But, y'know, 13-3, #1 seed etc. etc. and anyone who doubts us is a Negative Nancy.

Difference is, this is the seasons nadir, not its peak. We almost can't help getting better, at least on offense, and if our line comes together the D doesn't have to be as elite as it has thus far.


As an addendum to this, the combined records of the Packers opponents so far is 2-7 and the combined record of the Cardinals (who look like world beaters) opponents is 1-8, so ...

[Davii]

The good, we are 3-0.

The bad, the teams we beat are a combined 1-8.

Yes, but 3 of those 8 were us and 2 of those wins came on the road. We can say they're 1-8 but we need to put that 1-8 into perspective, who were the 8 and where were they played at?

[chazoe60]

I can't wait for the day the Broncos win their opener and someone says "yeah but that win came against a winless team"

[TXBRONC]

Yes, but 3 of those 8 were us and 2 of those wins came on the road. We can say they're 1-8 into perspective, who were the 8 and where were they played at?

Lions 0-3
@ San Diego L

@ Minnesota L

Denver L


Ravens 0-3

@ Denver L

@ Oakland L

Cincinnati L


Kansas City 1-3

@ Houston W

Denver L

@ Green Bay L

Interestingly all four teams have basically had their games scheduled the same way. Two road games and one home game.

[pulse]

Baltimore has fallen apart. They have too many problems. I'll be surprised if they make .500 at this point.

Detroit has a lot of problems with their offensive line. If Stafford survives until they get their pass blocking fixed, they might still be a wildcard team.

The win in KC was still a great win and I'm ignoring their record right now. The Chiefs have too much talent and too good a defense to not be a playoff contender. Nobody is going into GB and having much success this year. But don't be surprised if KC wins in Cincinnati next week and is 6-2 when they come to Denver.

[TXBRONC]

The chances of an 0-3 making the playoffs is pretty slim. I think the Ravens have the better chance of having a winning record by time it's all said done. Making the playoffs on the other hand is a horse of another color.

[VonDoom]

I can't wait for the day the Broncos win their opener and someone says "yeah but that win came against a winless team"

You mean no one has said this already??

[VonDoom]

After reviewing the Detroit game, I think Minnesota will be another great test for our defense. I expect AP will still break a few long runs and still get his yards, but Denver should win the game. Right now it's all about continuing to improve our offensive line until November 1st. Then it gets real. We're going to have to put up some points to win that game. If we're still struggling to run the ball, Manning will have to be perfect or we'll lose.

Yeah, Peterson is going to really test our run defense. The Vikings seem to be leaning on him (as they should) and letting Bridgewater throw less and less over the last few weeks.

I'm actually more concerned about our O-line against the Vikings. Everson Griffin basically lived in the backfield against SD and they brutalized Rivers. It would be nice if we could, you know, run the ball.

[tomjonesrocks]

Rewatched part of of the game yesterday - captain obvious but damn that was a poorly officiated game.

The "taunting" call that almost became a 48 yard extra point (WTF?!) and false start on Paradis really stood out...

I'll take it after the Broncos BS but that Stafford "fumble" was definitely a lucky break on the flip side.

[VonDoom]

Rewatched part of of the game yesterday - captain obvious but damn that was a poorly officiated game.

The "taunting" call that almost became a 48 yard extra point (WTF?!) and false start on Paradis really stood out...

I'll take it after the Broncos BS but that Stafford "fumble" was definitely a lucky break on the flip side.

The fumble was questionable but I actually thought they got that one right (no homer). He looked like he was trying to bring the ball back to his body. Plus, it was called a fumble on the field and it was tough to see overwhelming evidence to overturn.

The Paradis false start was obviously wrong, as was the taunting. However, I think we got a few as well - I'm pretty sure they could have called PI on Roby (?) near the end, as he was draped on the receiver. Plus way back in the first quarter, we got one of those late hit out of bounds penalties in our favor and I thought that was very ticky tack at best.

Bottom line - the officials were terrible. Even after the taunting penalty, they announced the 48 yard XP only to realize that this wasn't actually an option given the penalty. The same crew screwed up something similar in week one, I hear.

[BroncoWave]

The NFL taunting rules baffle me. You can sack someone and do a dance basically humping the air and that's fine, but walk backwards two yards away from the endzone and that's 15 yards. Makes no sense.

[Bronco4ever]

The NFL taunting rules baffle me. You can sack someone and do a dance basically humping the air and that's fine, but walk backwards two yards away from the endzone and that's 15 yards. Makes no sense.

If he would have just grabbed his junk, it would have been ok.

7843

[Dapper Dan]

Haha. I like how we need to go in depth the prove how the records statistic doesn't matter, but when you say something about how bad the team or players are doing something, it doesn't matter because we're 3-0.

[TXBRONC]

You mean no one has said this already??

I don't know if anyone will say those exact words but they're getting close.

[TXBRONC]

The NFL taunting rules baffle me. You can sack someone and do a dance basically humping the air and that's fine, but walk backwards two yards away from the endzone and that's 15 yards. Makes no sense.

I couldn't tell but maybe D. Thomas said something Slay when he turned around because just turning around going into the end zone doesn't seem like taunting to me. :whoknows:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I couldn't tell but maybe D. Thomas said something Slay when he turned around because just turning around going into the end zone doesn't seem like taunting to me. :whoknows:

That particlular db was talking trash in social medial leading up to the game. The officials might have been told to watch the interactions around him.

It makes it fitting that he got torched for about 200 yard and 2 td's. :laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

I couldn't tell but maybe D. Thomas said something Slay when he turned around because just turning around going into the end zone doesn't seem like taunting to me. :whoknows:

I think doing that, is literally, in the rulebook about being considered a taunt.

[NightTerror218]

I read that Ware and miller are top 5 for qb pressure. Miller is not getting the sacks but he is getting pressure. Saw him tap Stafford a few times, essentially saying, I am right here. Making sure Stafford is uncomfortable.

[Joel]

I think doing that, is literally, in the rulebook about being considered a taunt.
Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7n4wq8J0fw

No flag. Sure, the rules have changed a lot since the days of leather helmets back in 2010, but that wasn't a penalty then and shouldn't be now. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but: It's no more derisive than Adrian Peterson high stepping into the end zone a couple hours before DT backpedaled into it. He neither directed the act at an opponent nor used the ball nor anything else as a prop, so unless he said a naughty word demanding the refs haul him to the team showers to wash out his mouth with soap, that was 99.44% legal.

[Northman]

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7n4wq8J0fw

No flag. Sure, the rules have changed a lot since the days of leather helmets back in 2010, but that wasn't a penalty then and shouldn't be now. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but: It's no more derisive than Adrian Peterson high stepping into the end zone a couple hours before DT backpedaled into it. He neither directed the act at an opponent nor used the ball nor anything else as a prop, so unless he said a naughty word demanding the refs haul him to the team showers to wash out his mouth with soap, that was 99.44% legal.

If that happened today that would be a flag. It wasnt called then because the rule wasnt in place then. You can gripe all day about hating the rule but its now a rule and DT got caught. Its of little consequence, we won the game and DT will learn from it.

[Ravage!!!]

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7n4wq8J0fw

No flag. Sure, the rules have changed a lot since the days of leather helmets back in 2010, but that wasn't a penalty then and shouldn't be now. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but: It's no more derisive than Adrian Peterson high stepping into the end zone a couple hours before DT backpedaled into it. He neither directed the act at an opponent nor used the ball nor anything else as a prop, so unless he said a naughty word demanding the refs haul him to the team showers to wash out his mouth with soap, that was 99.44% legal.

Like North just pointed out, that was before the rule change that added the tauntng rule in. Clotheslines used to be legal too, as well as actually getting to tackle a QB. But things are changed, and you have to play by today's rules. Just like Sander's flip into the Endzone against KC. If he would have initiated that flip BEFORE crossing the goal line, it would have gotten the same penalty.

But I do agree.... its a crappy rule. The No Fun League.

[BroncoJoe]

Joel is stuck in the '70's.

[Joel]

If that happened today that would be a flag. It wasnt called then because the rule wasnt in place then. You can gripe all day about hating the rule but its now a rule and DT got caught. Its of little consequence, we won the game and DT will learn from it.
Yeah: Next time high step; that's not insulting at all. :)

[Joel]

Joel is stuck in the '70's.
In my defence, 1972010 was an amazing year. It's your loss you kids never got to see old time stars like Sam Bradford (ask your dad about him. ;))

[BroncoWave]

Again I ask, how is stuff like that considered taunting, but Von Miller's sack dances are not?

[Northman]

Again I ask, how is stuff like that considered taunting, but Von Miller's sack dances are not?

Technically Von's dances are taunting but i guess since he isnt scoring (the only reason why i think they dont flag it) its not a flag.

[BroncoWave]

Technically Von's dances are taunting but i guess since he isnt scoring (the only reason why i think they dont flag it) its not a flag.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't strain myself trying to make sense of some of the NFL's stupid rules lol.

[Ravage!!!]

Again I ask, how is stuff like that considered taunting, but Von Miller's sack dances are not?

That's a great question. Sack dances are accepted and something as simple as running backwards (or somersaulting) into the endzone is. It's weird, and its dumb. Same with the "no group endzone celebrations."

[Dapper Dan]

I don't know why spiking the ball is so bad. The NFL isn't as bad as College, but still.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't know why spiking the ball is so bad. The NFL isn't as bad as College, but still.

They can spike the ball in the NFL...but don't you dare do it 'choreographed' with teamates... THEN that's just aweful!

[BroncoWave]

I miss the days of the funny celebrations from Ochocinco, TO, Joe Horn, and the like. The NFL is just tonedeaf to their fanbase to get rid of that stuff IMO.

[Dapper Dan]

They can spike the ball in the NFL...but don't you dare do it 'choreographed' with teamates... THEN that's just aweful!

I just wonder how long until you can't spike it. I think Maryland recently got a 15 yard penalty for spiking the ball after a touchdown.

[Dapper Dan]

I miss the days of the funny celebrations from Ochocinco, TO, Joe Horn, and the like. The NFL is just tonedeaf to their fanbase to get rid of that stuff IMO.

No Fun League

[Ravage!!!]

I miss the days of the funny celebrations from Ochocinco, TO, Joe Horn, and the like. The NFL is just tonedeaf to their fanbase to get rid of that stuff IMO.

TO and Ocho ruined it with Cell Phones in the endzone. I agree, I miss the fun stuff, but there is always someone that has to push it to the point where rules have to be made.

[Ravage!!!]

I just wonder how long until you can't spike it. I think Maryland recently got a 15 yard penalty for spiking the ball after a touchdown.

They used to have a rule that stated that the players couldn't spike the ball. They brought the spike back, though.

[BroncoWave]

TO and Ocho ruined it with Cell Phones in the endzone. I agree, I miss the fun stuff, but there is always someone that has to push it to the point where rules have to be made.

Actually is was Joe Horn with the cell phone (I know, being argumentative here :lol: ).

I guess if they wanted to ban props like that I can get that, but they have taken it to the absolute extreme.

[Ravage!!!]

Actually is was Joe Horn with the cell phone (I know, being argumentative here :lol: ).

I guess if they wanted to ban props like that I can get that, but they have taken it to the absolute extreme.

Damn..I would have sworn it was Ocho on that one!! Glad I wasn't betting, I could even see his orange jersey in myhead doing that. :lol: weird how the mind will change images to fit like that.

[BroncoWave]

Damn..I would have sworn it was Ocho on that one!! Glad I wasn't betting, I could even see his orange jersey in myhead doing that. :lol: weird how the mind will change images to fit like that.

As far as props go, Ocho did the fake HOF jacket and the "please don't fine me goodell" poster. I don't remember TO ever using a prop. Could be wrong though.

[BroncoWave]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/top.td.celebrations/images/joehorn.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

As far as props go, Ocho did the fake HOF jacket and the "please don't fine me goodell" poster. I don't remember TO ever using a prop. Could be wrong though.

OHH.. TO had the BEST prop and the BEST celebration EVER.

Now I'm not a fan of props.. but TO was the VERY FIRST when he pulled out the shapie pen out of his sock, signed the football, and handed it to the agent of the CB that was covering him!!! That was the absolute BEST FRIGGIN' TD celebration move, that can never ever be duplicated. I hate showman ship, but that was just friggin awesome.

[BroncoWave]

OHH.. TO had the BEST prop and the BEST celebration EVER.

Now I'm not a fan of props.. but TO was the VERY FIRST when he pulled out the shapie pen out of his sock, signed the football, and handed it to the agent of the CB that was covering him!!! That was the absolute BEST FRIGGIN' TD celebration move, that can never ever be duplicated. I hate showman ship, but that was just friggin awesome.

TOTALLY forgot about that one. That was great.

[Ravage!!!]

TOTALLY forgot about that one. That was great.

I think it was the next week or so that Horn used the cell phone. Tried to up TO.

[BroncoWave]

I like the 30 for 30 episode "The U" that basically chronicled how shamelessly Miami taunted their opponents back in the 80s. That shit was hilarious.

[Ravage!!!]

I like the 30 for 30 episode "The U" that basically chronicled how shamelessly Miami taunted their opponents back in the 80s. That shit was hilarious.

They were brutal.

[BroncoWave]

My favorite Ochicinco thing wasn't even any of his celebrations, it was the list of DBs he kept in his locker room that chronicled who all failed to adequately cover him. :lol:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

My favorite Ochicinco thing wasn't even any of his celebrations, it was the list of DBs he kept in his locker room that chronicled who all failed to adequately cover him. :lol:

"Deangelo Fall"

:laugh:

[TXBRONC]

My favorite Ochicinco thing wasn't even any of his celebrations, it was the list of DBs he kept in his locker room that chronicled who all failed to adequately cover him. :lol:

Johnson wasn't mean spirited he was funny.

[aberdien]

We can't have fun celebrations, it's not like the NFL is a form of entertainment or anything...

[Dapper Dan]

Man, I miss that stuff. I used to copy those guys in back yard games. Haha. I remember hiding a sharpie and then signing the ball after I scored. Luckily it was my ball anyway.

[Northman]

The fact that Johnson kicked an extra point was awesome.

[GEM]

If that happened today that would be a flag. It wasnt called then because the rule wasnt in place then. You can gripe all day about hating the rule but its now a rule and DT got caught. Its of little consequence, we won the game and DT will learn from it.

His point being though is that sometimes it's called and sometimes it's not. He posted Peterson earlier the SAME day high stepped into the end zone, no flag. SAME DAY! NFL and it's refs just need to be consistent either way. Either you're going to call it all the time or your going to call it none of the time. NFL's issue with almost everything...consistency.

[Ravage!!!]

His point being though is that sometimes it's called and sometimes it's not. He posted Peterson earlier the SAME day high stepped into the end zone, no flag. SAME DAY! NFL and it's refs just need to be consistent either way. Either you're going to call it all the time or your going to call it none of the time. NFL's issue with almost everything...consistency.

High stepping isn't in the rules as being flaunting, while running backwards into the endzone IS in the rules. It wasn't an interpretation problem or a consistancy one, it's just what is literally in the rules.

[VonDoom]

High stepping isn't in the rules as being flaunting, while running backwards into the endzone IS in the rules. It wasn't an interpretation problem or a consistancy one, it's just what is literally in the rules.

I'm not trying to belabor the point or be a dick, but where does it say that in the rules? I'm asking seriously, as I said. I Googled "NFL rule book" and found this:


SECTION 3 UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT
ARTICLE 1. PROHIBITED ACTS.
There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the
generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:
(a) Throwing a punch, or a forearm, or kicking at an opponent, even though no contact is made.
(b) Using abusive, threatening, or insulting language or gestures to opponents, teammates, officials, or representatives of the
League.
(c) Using baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.
(d) Prolonged or excessive celebrations or demonstrations by an individual player
.
Players are prohibited from engaging in
any celebrations or demonstrations while on the ground. A celebration or demonstration shall be deemed excessive or
prolonged if a player continues to celebrate or demonstrate after a warning from an official.
(e) Two or more players engaging in prolonged, excessive, premeditated, or choreographed celebrations or demonstrations.
(f) Possession or use of foreign or extraneous object(s) that are not part of the uniform on the field or the sideline
during the game.
(g)
Using the ball or any other object including pylons, goal posts, or crossbars, as a prop.
(h) Unnecessary physical contact with a game official.
(i) Removal of his helmet by a player in the field of play or the end zone during a celebration or demonstration, or during a
confrontation with a game official or any other player.
Exceptions:
It is not a foul if:
(1) a timeout has been called for reasons of injury, television break, or charged team time
out; or
(2) it is between periods

Note
s:
(1) Under no condition is an official to allow a player to shove, push, or strike him in an offensive, disrespectful, or
unsportsmanlike manner. Any such action must be reported to the Commissioner.
Penalty: (for (a) through (i))
:
Loss of 15 yards from the succeeding spot or whatever spot the Referee, after consulting
with the crew, deems equitable. If the foul is by the defense, it is also an automatic first down.
(2) Violations of (b) or (c) (above), which occur before or during the game, may result in disqualification in addition to the
yardage penalty. Any violations at the game site on the day of the game, including postgame, may result in discipline
by the Commissioner. Any violation of (g) above may result in disqualification and also will include discipline by the
Commissioner. An official must see the entire action for a player to be disqualified.
(3) Violations of (b) will be penalized if any of the acts are committed directly at an opponent. These acts include,
but are not limited to: sack dances; home run swing; incredible hulk; spiking the ball; spinning the ball; throwing or shoving
the ball; pointing; pointing the ball; verbal taunting; military salute; standing over an opponent (prolonged and with
provocation); or dancing.
(4) Violations of (c) will be penalized if any of the acts occur anywhere on the field. These acts include, but are not limited
to: throat slash; machine-gun salute; sexually-suggestive gestures; prolonged gyrations; or stomping on a team logo.
(5) Violations of (d) will be penalized if they occur anywhere on the field other than the bench area.
(6) If any foreign object(s) are deemed a safety hazard by the game officials, in addition to a yardage penalty, the player
will be subject to ejection from the game, whether he uses the object or not

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook/

Unless I'm overlooking it, I didn't see anything spelled out about high stepping or backing into the end zone. It would then appear to be at the referee's discretion. I will say as a side note that it is incredible what is spelled out as actual taunting (home run swing, incredible hulk (?), etc)

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not trying to belabor the point or be a dick, but where does it say that in the rules? I'm asking seriously, as I said. I Googled "NFL rule book" and found this:


http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook/

Unless I'm overlooking it, I didn't see anything spelled out about high stepping or backing into the end zone. It would then appear to be at the referee's discretion. I will say as a side note that it is incredible what is spelled out as actual taunting (home run swing, incredible hulk (?), etc)

The only reason I keep saying its in the rule book is that it was mentioned by someone on the radio that was/is on the competition commitee. He specifically talked about running backwards into the endzone and initiating a flip BEFORE reaching the goalline. I just assumed that those were "Givens" as to getting the flags, thus they would be 'in' the rulebook. But those just might be cases that the refs are told are automatics (examples of how many on that list?). Idk.

[VonDoom]

The only reason I keep saying its in the rule book is that it was mentioned by someone on the radio that was/is on the competition commitee. He specifically talked about running backwards into the endzone and initiating a flip BEFORE reaching the goalline. I just assumed that those were "Givens" as to getting the flags, thus they would be 'in' the rulebook. But those just might be cases that the refs are told are automatics (examples of how many on that list?). Idk.

That's a fair point. I still think there is a large amount of leeway and discretion used by each crew. DT's thing didn't even seem that deliberate to me. I mean, you could make a case that he was slowing down to save clock time. It wasn't directed at the defender, as far as I could tell. I'm also pretty sure that Detroit's receivers (Tate, I believe in particular) were spinning the ball after catches and that wasn't called (even though spinning the ball is actually spelled out as taunting in the above section). I think we all agree that the refs were terrible in that game across the board, so this is just another example of such.

[Northman]

His point being though is that sometimes it's called and sometimes it's not. He posted Peterson earlier the SAME day high stepped into the end zone, no flag. SAME DAY! NFL and it's refs just need to be consistent either way. Either you're going to call it all the time or your going to call it none of the time. NFL's issue with almost everything...consistency.

NFL officiating has never been consistent though, like ever. The best way to avoid a flag in my opinion is simply not do it. Peterson got lucky, DT did not.

[GEM]

NFL officiating has never been consistent though, like ever. The best way to avoid a flag in my opinion is simply not do it. Peterson got lucky, DT did not.

But if it's not spelled out in the NFL's own rules, how is it against the rules? The rule is listed above, doesn't say anything about backing in or high stepping.

[spikerman]

I'm not trying to belabor the point or be a dick, but where does it say that in the rules? I'm asking seriously, as I said. I Googled "NFL rule book" and found this:


http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook/

Unless I'm overlooking it, I didn't see anything spelled out about high stepping or backing into the end zone. It would then appear to be at the referee's discretion. I will say as a side note that it is incredible what is spelled out as actual taunting (home run swing, incredible hulk (?), etc)
This is the key phrase (underline emphasis is mine), "There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the
generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:"

The rulebook can't provide every conceivable example (it would be thousands of pages long) so they put in things like above to cover specific instances that the rulebook doesn't mention. I can tell you from an officiating standpoint I would have popped him for UNS as well on that play.

[BroncoJoe]

Homer glasses on:

Don't see how someone backing into the end-zone is unsportsmanlike. If he was talking shit, or doing something else, then yes. Maybe he was just seeing if any defenders were close?

Homer glasses off:

If a Raider did that - flag the shit out of him. Should be a 30 yard penalty and revert to the college rule - no TD.

[TXBRONC]

Homer glasses on:

Don't see how someone backing into the end
-zone is unsportsmanlike. If he was talking shit, or doing something else, then yes. Maybe he was just seeing if any defenders were close?

Homer glasses off:

If a Raider did that - flag the shit out of him. Should be a 30 yard penalty and revert to the college rule - no TD.

That's what I've been wondering if while Thomas was talking shit while he was backing into the end-zone.

[GEM]

Spike, would you flag the high stepping?

[spikerman]

Spike, would you flag the high stepping?

Honestly, yeah.

[NightTrainLayne]

My memory is that when this taunting became a "point of emphasis" a year or two ago, that it was specifically mentioned that high-stepping on the way to the end-zone would be considered taunting. Much less running in backwards or doing flips over the goal-line etc. As soon as I saw DT doing that, I expected a flag.

[GEM]

Honestly, yeah.

I just wish they were consistent across the league.

[I Eat Staples]

If the consequence for flipping a bat in baseball was that the next hitter had to start with 1 or 2 strikes on him, I'm sure everyone would find that completely ridiculous. Well, that's how ridiculous "sportsmanship" penalties are in football. Affecting the outcome of a game because someone was celebrating or talking trash completely undermines the integrity of the game.

If you want to remove that kind of behavior from the game and legislate how players act, go ahead. Fine them for it. Don't affect the outcome of games.

[Ravage!!!]

If the consequence for flipping a bat in baseball was that the next hitter had to start with 1 or 2 strikes on him, I'm sure everyone would find that completely ridiculous. Well, that's how ridiculous "sportsmanship" penalties are in football. Affecting the outcome of a game because someone was celebrating or talking trash completely undermines the integrity of the game.

If you want to remove that kind of behavior from the game and legislate how players act, go ahead. Fine them for it. Don't affect the outcome of games.

They don't take the points off the board, but I agree. If you want to discourage the acts of behavior, then do it with fines rather than penalties on the field. At least then, if it was reviewed and found to be "ok"... the ref didn't effect the game with another "discretionary" call.

[BroncoWave]

They don't take the points off the board, but I agree. If you want to discourage the acts of behavior, then do it with fines rather than penalties on the field. At least then, if it was reviewed and found to be "ok"... the ref didn't effect the game with another "discretionary" call.

The fact that college football takes points off the board if you are celebrating on the way to the endzone might be the worst rule in all of sports. I pray the NFL never adopts that rule, but it would not shock me at all.

[Ravage!!!]

The fact that college football takes points off the board if you are celebrating on the way to the endzone might be the worst rule in all of sports. I pray the NFL never adopts that rule, but it would not shock me at all.

Yeah... that's just horrendous. We want the rivalry and pageantry of college football, but then don't want the players to have fun..even if that does mean some taunting. Its an absurd rule.

[I Eat Staples]

They don't take the points off the board, but I agree. If you want to discourage the acts of behavior, then do it with fines rather than penalties on the field. At least then, if it was reviewed and found to be "ok"... the ref didn't effect the game with another "discretionary" call.

Yeah I should have been more clear, I wasn't just thinking about scoring plays. The worst is when you see the defense get a stop on 3rd down and the other team gets an automatic first because someone boasted or talked trash. And even 15 yards on a kickoff can impact the game.

The college rule is absolutely horrendous though.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah... that's just horrendous. We want the rivalry and pageantry of college football, but then don't want the players to have fun..even if that does mean some taunting. Its an absurd rule.

I remember a few years ago Brad Wing, LSU's punter, ran for like a 50 yard TD on a fake punt, and started celebrating on the way to the endzone and it was called back. Probably the most exciting thing that will ever happen in that guy's career and almost definitely the only time he will have a chance to score a TD, and it's all erased because of that rule. Now I hate LSU and found it funny for their sake that it happened, but I hated it for that guy.

[Joel]

SECTION 3 UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT
ARTICLE 1. PROHIBITED ACTS.
There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

(a) Throwing a punch, or a forearm, or kicking at an opponent, even though no contact is made.
(b) Using abusive, threatening, or insulting language or gestures to opponents, teammates, officials, or representatives of the League.
(c) Using baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.
(d) Prolonged or excessive celebrations or demonstrations by an individual player.

Players are prohibited from engaging in any celebrations or demonstrations while on the ground. A celebration or demonstration shall be deemed excessive or prolonged if a player continues to celebrate or demonstrate after a warning from an official.

(e) Two or more players engaging in prolonged, excessive, premeditated, or choreographed celebrations or demonstrations.
(f) Possession or use of foreign or extraneous object(s) that are not part of the uniform on the field or the sideline during the game.
(g) Using the ball or any other object including pylons, goal posts, or crossbars, as a prop.
(h) Unnecessary physical contact with a game official.
(i) Removal of his helmet by a player in the field of play or the end zone during a celebration or demonstration, or during a confrontation with a game official or any other player.

Exceptions:
It is not a foul if:

(1) a timeout has been called for reasons of injury, television break, or charged team timeout; or
(2) it is between periods

Notes:
(1) Under no condition is an official to allow a player to shove, push, or strike him in an offensive, disrespectful, or unsportsmanlike manner. Any such action must be reported to the Commissioner.

Penalty: (for (a) through (i)):
Loss of 15 yards from the succeeding spot or whatever spot the Referee, after consulting with the crew, deems equitable. If the foul is by the defense, it is also an automatic first down.
(2) Violations of (b) or (c) (above), which occur before or during the game, may result in disqualification in addition to the yardage penalty. Any violations at the game site on the day of the game, including postgame, may result in discipline by the Commissioner. Any violation of (g) above may result in disqualification and also will include discipline by the Commissioner. An official must see the entire action for a player to be disqualified.
(3) Violations of (b) will be penalized if any of the acts are committed directly at an opponent. These acts include, but are not limited to: sack dances; home run swing; incredible hulk; spiking the ball; spinning the ball; throwing or shoving the ball; pointing; pointing the ball; verbal taunting; military salute; standing over an opponent (prolonged and with provocation); or dancing.
(4) Violations of (c) will be penalized if any of the acts occur anywhere on the field. These acts include, but are not limited to: throat slash; machine-gun salute; sexually-suggestive gestures; prolonged gyrations; or stomping on a team logo.
(5) Violations of (d) will be penalized if they occur anywhere on the field other than the bench area.
(6) If any foreign object(s) are deemed a safety hazard by the game officials, in addition to a yardage penalty, the player will be subject to ejection from the game, whether he uses the object or not


This is the key phrase (underline emphasis is mine), "There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the
generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:"

The rulebook can't provide every conceivable example (it would be thousands of pages long) so they put in things like above to cover specific instances that the rulebook doesn't mention. I can tell you from an officiating standpoint I would have popped him for UNS as well on that play.

We've previously discussed and agreed that the uncertain and arbitrary nature of judgement calls requires rules be written to avoid them unless unavoidably necessary. Taunting is no such case of unavoidably necessary vagueness and subjectivity: Taunting doesn't change scores, and anyone who physically retaliates against nonphysical provocation will do so whether that nonphysical provocation is words, gestures, scoring or making a stop. Eject them the first time, fine them the second, and suspend them for any further infractions.

What we should NEVER do is ignore Adrian Petersons high stepping because the rules don't explicitly ban it yet flag DTs backpedaling DESPITE the fact the rules don't explicitly ban it EITHER, certainly not while also ignoring Von Millers "(4) Violation[] of (c)... includ[ing]... sexually-suggestive gestures...."

Such selective enforcement neuters rules because players (correctly) conclude all players are ONLY penalized (or not) for WHOM they are rather than WHAT they do. When the NFL declares someone a problem child it'll frequently come down hard on him for any reason or none, when it declares someone a golden child, it'll never come down on him no matter what he does, and all other players (i.e. the vast majority) will be penalized (or not) based on what the refs had for lunch that day.

Or, as John Adams put it when defending the Bostom Massacres perpetrators (whose conviction would've mean their execution,)


We are to look upon it as more beneficial, that many guilty persons should escape unpunished, than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is, because it’s of more importance to community, that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt should be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world, that all of them cannot be punished; and many times they happen in such a manner, that it is not of much consequence to the public, whether they are punished or not.

But when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, it is immaterial to me, whether I behave well or ill; for virtue itself, is no security. And if such a sentiment as this, should take place in the mind of the subject, there would be an end to all security what so ever.

When a rule (or its enforcers) punish the innocent, ALL innocents come to disregard ALL rules, since they are as severely punished for adherence to rules as for violations. At the risk of the football fora venturing too far from footbal, I personally believe that's a growing social problem generally, precisely because the extremely guilty yet extremely powerful are frequently excused, while the dubiously guilty yet extremely powerless are simply executed.


My memory is that when this taunting became a "point of emphasis" a year or two ago, that it was specifically mentioned that high-stepping on the way to the end-zone would be considered taunting. Much less running in backwards or doing flips over the goal-line etc. As soon as I saw DT doing that, I expected a flag.

Then you were presumably surpised Peterson high stepped into the end zone just hours earlier with NO flag. I don't even care what the rule IS, only that it's the SAME for EVERYONE.


They don't take the points off the board, but I agree. If you want to discourage the acts of behavior, then do it with fines rather than penalties on the field. At least then, if it was reviewed and found to be "ok"... the ref didn't effect the game with another "discretionary" call.

Nothing makes a big difference except suspensions, because playes without the performance-->notoriety-->salaries to shrug off fines rarely commit violations that merit fines, precisely because they know they're neither bulletproof nor independently wealthy. The guilty are nearly always marquee players doing it partly to keep their names in lights, and because it's already there they usually already have contracts big enough they give tips bigger than the fines they receive: Fines are a price of the PR they take into their next contract negotation, and thus more than pay for themselves.

Suspensions change all that by denying several weeks of promotion in highlight reels and obviating onfield value to victory. With respect to JT, someone the other day quoted the line that "a players most important ability is his availabilty," and that goes for suspensions as well as injuries. More so, because suspensions are far more preventable and controllable, and result from undesirable rather than desirable behavior. It's no sin getting hurt trying to help the team win, but tooting ones individual horn and/or antagonizing opponents doesn't help the team, and suspensions DEFINITELY don't.

Anyway, saying DT was flagged for violating an "implicit rule" makes it no better in my mind, because players can't (and thus shouldn't be expected to) read between the lines of every rule to figure out everything the NFL believes qualifies (but not strongly enough to outright SAY so) and everything every ref MIGHT believe qualifies (depending on which ref, which player and the position of the stars at that particular time and place.) That's an undue and unnecessary burden; players shouldn't be penalized 15 yds for lacking telepathy, especially concerning an issue so trivial to begin.

[BroncoWave]

FWIW, Miller was fined about 12K for his sack dance today. I'm honestly shocked he didn't get flagged for it. Not that I have an issue with it at all, but if strutting into the endzone gets you a flag, I don't see how that doesn't.

[Joel]

FWIW, Miller was fined about 12K for his sack dance today. I'm honestly shocked he didn't get flagged for it. Not that I have an issue with it at all, but if strutting into the endzone gets you a flag, I don't see how that doesn't.
Especially since (unlike backpedaling to the end zone) the rules EXPLICITLY ban "sexually-suggestive gestures," which his dance definitely is. Guess the ref who flagged DT missed that when not-flagging Miller.

It's all well to say the rule can't include an exhaustive laundry list of every possible example, only speak generally—until a team's penalized for understanding that generalization differently than the NFL meant it (or claims it did.) Leave it open to interpolation and that's just what EVERYONE will do, because it FORCES them to do so. Neither refs nor players should be expected to guess a rules precise meaning each specific instance, and the latter certainly shouldn't be penalized for disagreeing with the former on such a highly subjective decision.

That goes double for refs who demonstrate dubious judgement by failing to flag EXPLICIT violations in the same game.

[Ravage!!!]

I remember a few years ago Brad Wing, LSU's punter, ran for like a 50 yard TD on a fake punt, and started celebrating on the way to the endzone and it was called back. Probably the most exciting thing that will ever happen in that guy's career and almost definitely the only time he will have a chance to score a TD, and it's all erased because of that rule. Now I hate LSU and found it funny for their sake that it happened, but I hated it for that guy.

I rmemeber that, and it was a horrendous call to make. Just terrible. The excitement of those players is what makes college sports fun.. I remember that,and honestly, its one of the things that pushed me further from watching college football.

[TXBRONC]

FWIW, Miller was fined about 12K for his sack dance today. I'm honestly shocked he didn't get flagged for it. Not that I have an issue with it at all, but if strutting into the endzone gets you a flag, I don't see how that doesn't.

The funny thing is I think Miller did that same sack dance a week earlier in K.C. as well and no flag, and no fine.

[BroncoWave]

The funny thing is I think Miller did that same sack dance a week earlier in K.C. as well.

It's possible he was warned last week then fined for doing it again.

[Joel]

It's possible he was warned last week then fined for doing it again.
I believe he's been doing it for a while, so it's a bit late in the game for the NFL to get around to fining a regular act the rules EXPLICITLY ban. Also, the rules specify a 15 yd penalty (which he has YET to receive) not a fine (which he HAS received.) Finally, Rotoworld says he's making close to $10 million this year, so a $12,000 fine affects him no more than a $6 fine affects someone with the median US income.

[TXBRONC]

It's possible he was warned last week then fined for doing it again.

True it's possible he was warned but it seems unlikely that Miller just forgot or blew it off.

[Ravage!!!]

The NFL just likes to throw fines out for everything. I'm sure it has to do with how "into" the dance Miller was, and then how much TV time it got during the act. DId dthe TV just pass over it, did they just zoom in on his chest? did they watch the whole thing and then replay it? The guy doing the reviews has to be the most anal, sexually repressive, nerd, imaginable.

[BroncoWave]

The NFL just likes to throw fines out for everything. I'm sure it has to do with how "into" the dance Miller was, and then how much TV time it got during the act. DId dthe TV just pass over it, did they just zoom in on his chest? did they watch the whole thing and then replay it? The guy doing the reviews has to be the most anal, sexually repressive, nerd, imaginable.

But Rav, think of the families! The kids!

[Ravage!!!]

But Rav, think of the families! The kids!

Dancing is a sin to begin with!!! Where is Kevin Bacon when you need him?

(how many steps from Von Miller to Kevin Bacon?)

[Joel]

Dancing is a sin to begin with!!! Where is Kevin Bacon when you need him?

(how many steps from Von Miller to Kevin Bacon?)
Bacon was in a movie about a HS, Miller played football in HS. I also went to (a different) HS, so am also separated from both by just one degree. You may fawn, peasants. ;)

[TXBRONC]

Bacon was in a movie about a HS, Miller played football in HS. I also went to (a different) HS, so am also separated from both by just one degree. You may fawn, peasants. ;)

I went to H.S. in TX like you and Miller. I played H.S. football as did Miller and my wife graduated from Desoto High in Desoto, TX where Von hails from. Start licking my boots.

[SR]

I live in Texas?

[Joel]

I went to H.S. in TX like you and Miller. I played H.S. football as did Miller and my wife graduated from Desoto High in Desoto, TX where Von hails from. Start licking my boots.
I used to know a chick who went to HS with Shaq, too, so there. Of course, I can never be as vicariously world famous as Falco, but I'm right up there. ;)

[TXBRONC]

I live in Texas?

Sorry you need bit more to be separated from Von Miller by one degree.

[TXBRONC]

I used to know a chick who went to HS with Shaq, too, so there. Of course, I can never be as vicariously world famous as Falco, but I'm right up there. ;)

You really need to stop stealing from Falco's stash because it is causing you to have delusions of grandeur.