Kubiak to keep Manning in system

[Northman]

Dont have a link on me at the moment but it popped up on my phone not too long ago that there will be no change in game plan or system for Manning at the moment. We are going to approach the Detroit game the same way we did the first two games, etc. Whether or not we have to let Manning loose again or not i guess we will have to see but it appears for the moment that the philosophy will not change.

[TXBRONC]

Dont have a link on me at the moment but it popped up on my phone not too long ago that there will be no change in game plan or system for Manning at the moment. We are going to approach the Detroit game the same way we did the first two games, etc. Whether or not we have to let Manning loose again or not i guess we will have to see but it appears for the moment that the philosophy will not change.

Well maybe Denver's start getting some traction offensively because the Lions have been bad the first two weeks of the season.

[Joel]

Well maybe Denver's start getting some traction offensively because the Lions have been bad the first two weeks of the season.

Detroit's been bad since they dumped Bobby Layne, but their D's been consistently good for a while. That said, losing Suh and Fairley so far appears more than Ngata could offset, because when you said that I looked up their defensive stats, and had to double check their opponents completion percentage because I thought it was a misprint:

81.4%

I know it's only through 2 games, the first @Rivers (who's been machine-like since McCoy arrived) and the second with AD running all over them so much Bridgewater only had to throw 18 times, but: Detroits opponents have completed 81.4% of passes against them so far, and yes, that's the NFL highest defensive completion percentage. Put another way, Detroits opponents have only missed 11 passes in 2 games. Rashean Mathis alone has 13 solo tackles so far; you want your defensive players to make lots of tackles, but when a starting CB has lots of solos and NO assists, he's usually giving up lots of catches.

Not saying OUR line can make Anderson or Hillman look like Adrian Peterson nor let Manning rattle off 70% completions like Rivers, but there's cause for optimism. Uncharacteristically, Detroits offense looks better than its D right now, and our D looks REALLY good (though if anyone's figured out how to shutdown Megatron, I've yet to hear about it.) Might not be the week our ground game breaks out though; Detroits defensive rushing average is 17th, about "average," and lower than their norm, but... 48/59 for 538 yds, 3 TDs and 2 Ints, a 108.8 PR. Gotta be careful of Quinn, but otherwise: Light 'em up.

For the curious: OUR passing D is 34/57 (59.6%) for 267 yds, ZERO TDs and FOUR Ints, a (league-best) 45.1 PR In fact, we're (touch wood) the ONLY D still without a passing TD.

Our run Ds stats are bad at present, but mainly coming off a game where Jamaal Charles gashed us for 125 yds, including a 34 yd TD that's the longest play we've allowed so far (OTOH, Wade's using it as a "teaching moment" for Shane Ray: http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/15187/broncos-shane-ray-responds-well-after-bump-on-the-learning-curve.) Since he "gave up" (i.e. WE FORCED) a fumble when KC was within 5 yds of OUR goal line, then the game-winner at THEIRS, I'm OK with our run D. Forsett did nada for Baltimore, needing 2 more carries to edge Hillman by 2 yards as the games leading rusher (Hillman actually had the games highest average.)

[chazoe60]

Good. We know that the system that Peyton likes(no huddle shotgun offense) is not sustainable at the end of the season.

[Shazam!]

This is bad news IMO. if you don't have the personnel to run a system you don't force the issue. Peyton is very rhythm-centric and he's always been. Once he gets going and on a roll, he's very hard to stop and this ruins his pace and tempo. I'm starting to think this will not work with what they have.

It is possible that as a disciple of Shanahan he has a little ego and his way us the best and all players must conform.

I know about them being spent by the end of the year and I get that. But this OLine is horrendous and I don't see how it can drastically improve on the level necessary.

Run the shotgun and attack on defense. THATS what separates this team from the past, a defense that can not only keep u in games but help u win.

[BroncoJoe]

This is bad news IMO. if you don't have the personnel to run a system you don't force the issue. Peyton is very rhythm-centric and he's always been. Once he gets going and on a roll, he's very hard to stop and this ruins his pace and tempo. I'm starting to think this will not work with what they have.

It is possible that as a disciple of Shanahan he has a little ego and his way us the best and all players must conform.

I know about them being spent by the end of the year and I get that. But this OLine is horrendous and I don't see how it can drastically improve on the level necessary.

Run the shotgun and attack on defense. THATS what separates this team from the past, a defense that can not only keep u in games but help u win.

Not to be a d1ck, but how many championships has he won running his offense?

It's time for a change.

[Joel]

This is bad news IMO. if you don't have the personnel to run a system you don't force the issue. Peyton is very rhythm-centric and he's always been. Once he gets going and on a roll, he's very hard to stop and this ruins his pace and tempo. I'm starting to think this will not work with what they have.

It is possible that as a disciple of Shanahan he has a little ego and his way us the best and all players must conform.

I know about them being spent by the end of the year and I get that. But this OLine is horrendous and I don't see how it can drastically improve on the level necessary.

Run the shotgun and attack on defense. THATS what separates this team from the past, a defense that can not only keep u in games but help u win.

Until/unless the line gets MUCH better 5-wide shotgun bombs and slants won't work any better: NOTHING will. As noted elsewhere, Manning's a big enough football geek to know how important the run is both in itself (tiring their D, resting yours, sidelining THEIR bombers, running out the clock, etc.) and in terms of balance. He doesn't want to throw 3 out of 4 downs any more than Kubiak does, but neither has much choice right now, especially once we fall behind. He also doesn't want to be decapitated because opponents KNOW we can't run OR protect him, so they double cover DT and Sanders, then blitz everyone else.

Give Manning a decent line and I guarantee he'd cheerfully handoff to Anderson (or whoever) till opponents stacked the box and keyed on our RB to stop it, then PA into a 40 yd rainbow TD strike. If only....

[FanInAZ]

Detroit's been bad since they dumped Bobby Layne, but their D's been consistently good for a while. That said, losing Suh and Fairley so far appears more than Ngata could offset, because when you said that I looked up their defensive stats, and had to double check their opponents completion percentage because I thought it was a misprint:

81.4%



:shocked: Maybe I should load up & Denver WRs. I already have Sanders, & MO has Thomas.

Maybe I should grab Jordan Norwood, Andre Caldwell, Wes Welker &/or Cody Latimer just in case they have the game of their careers :D

[Valar Morghulis]

I thought this, in last week's press conference kubes also said manning enjoys the bootleg and that they would keep running it.

Both times he has ran it he had missed wr for a decent gain. I don't think he misses three in a row. I do think they should roll him out to the other side though because he looks so uncomfortable rolling out to his left but throwing in-field.

[7DnBrnc53]

Our run Ds stats are bad at present, but mainly coming off a game where Jamaal Charles gashed us for 125 yds, including a 34 yd TD that's the longest play we've allowed so far (OTOH, Wade's using it as a "teaching moment" for Shane Ray: http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-bronc...learning-curve.) Since he "gave up" (i.e. WE FORCED) a fumble when KC was within 5 yds of OUR goal line, then the game-winner at THEIRS, I'm OK with our run D. Forsett did nada for Baltimore, needing 2 more carries to edge Hillman by 2 yards as the games leading rusher (Hillman actually had the games highest average.)

Hopefully the return of Derek Wolfe in Week 5 will improve the rush D.

[Rick]

:shocked: Maybe I should load up & Denver WRs. I already have Sanders, & MO has Thomas.

Maybe I should grab Wes Welker just in case they have the game of their careers :D

I have never played a penny of fantasy, in fact I despise hearing about it on tv when trying to watch actual nfl news, but in my limited fantasy experience...I would recommend you not sign him :)

[Shazam!]

This is bad news IMO. if you don't have the personnel to run a system you don't force the issue. Peyton is very rhythm-centric and he's always been. Once he gets going and on a roll, he's very hard to stop and this ruins his pace and tempo. I'm starting to think this will not work with what they have.

It is possible that as a disciple of Shanahan he has a little ego and his way us the best and all players must conform.

I know about them being spent by the end of the year and I get that. But this OLine is horrendous and I don't see how it can drastically improve on the level necessary.

Run the shotgun and attack on defense. THATS what separates this team from the past, a defense that can not only keep u in games but help u win.

Until/unless the line gets MUCH better 5-wide shotgun bombs and slants won't work any better: NOTHING will. As noted elsewhere, Manning's a big enough football geek to know how important the run is both in itself (tiring their D, resting yours, sidelining THEIR bombers, running out the clock, etc.) and in terms of balance. He doesn't want to throw 3 out of 4 downs any more than Kubiak does, but neither has much choice right now, especially once we fall behind. He also doesn't want to be decapitated because opponents KNOW we can't run OR protect him, so they double cover DT and Sanders, then blitz everyone else.

Give Manning a decent line and I guarantee he'd cheerfully handoff to Anderson (or whoever) till opponents stacked the box and keyed on our RB to stop it, then PA into a 40 yd rainbow TD strike. If only....

But Manning does not have a decent OLine.

[TXBRONC]

This is bad news IMO. if you don't have the personnel to run a system you don't force the issue. Peyton is very rhythm-centric and he's always been. Once he gets going and on a roll, he's very hard to stop and this ruins his pace and tempo. I'm starting to think this will not work with what they have.

It is possible that as a disciple of Shanahan he has a little ego and his way us the best and all players must conform.

I know about them being spent by the end of the year and I get that. But this OLine is horrendous and I don't see how it can drastically improve on the level necessary.

Run the shotgun and attack on defense. THATS what separates this team from the past, a defense that can not only keep u in games but help u win.

I think Kubiak knows his personnel a thousand times better any of us fans. He and Elway both said the line would be a work in progress. Scrapping the offense just because things have been difficult would be foolish. Kubiak's offense is a rhythm centric offense.

[SR]

I think Kubiak knows his personnel a thousand times better any of us fans. He and Elway both said the line would be a work in progress. Scrapping the offense just because things have been difficult would be foolish. Kubiak's offense is a rhythm centric offense.

I give it a couple more weeks of trying his offense before he looks to lean more toward Manning's strengths. I'm not sure how much better the offensive line will get as the season wears on. I know it's a new offense and all but so far I'm unimpressed with Evan Mathis. I just really think that Peyton being under center more and trying to run a ZBS offense is not what he's built to do.

[BroncoWave]

I'm a little torn on this. On one hand, our offense clearly runs better using Manning's system. On the other hand, that system tends to go a little limp-dick once January rolls around. We are still 2-0 (as lucky as it may be) using Kubes' system with Mannin's sprinkled in here and there, so I see no reason not to keep that up for now. If we can get our running game rolling that only helps us in January.

[SR]

I'm a little torn on this. On one hand, our offense clearly runs better using Manning's system. On the other hand, that system tends to go a little limp-dick once January rolls around. We are still 2-0 (as lucky as it may be) using Kubes' system with Mannin's sprinkled in here and there, so I see no reason not to keep that up for now. If we can get our running game rolling that only helps us in January.

The way I see it, the game against the Chiefs had loss all over it until Peyton was allowed to play doing what he does. The Ravens game was all defense. When sticking to the Kubiak scheme, the offense struggled to get any kind of traction or rhythm. If the offense continues to sputter and the scoreboard continues to favor the other team until Manning is allowed to be Manning, it's pointless to continue to press the issue. This defense will always keep games tilted toward Denver but at what cost? The offense needs to score points.

[BroncoWave]

The way I see it, the game against the Chiefs had loss all over it until Peyton was allowed to play doing what he does. The Ravens game was all defense. When sticking to the Kubiak scheme, the offense struggled to get any kind of traction or rhythm. If the offense continues to sputter and the scoreboard continues to favor the other team until Manning is allowed to be Manning, it's pointless to continue to press the issue. This defense will always keep games tilted toward Denver but at what cost? The offense needs to score points.

I agree, but the offense also needs to do something different in the playoffs than it's been doing. The star wars numbers are great in the regular season, but it's just not been a winning formula in the playoffs. Maybe with our defense now the offense slowing down in the playoffs won't kill us, but I still don't mind Kubes trying to make us a more balanced team.

[SR]

But when it doesn't work and the offensive line still can't open holes to establish a legitimate ground game in a month, what then?

[TXBRONC]

I give it a couple more weeks of trying his offense before he looks to lean more toward Manning's strengths. I'm not sure how much better the offensive line will get as the season wears on. I know it's a new offense and all but so far I'm unimpressed with Evan Mathis. I just really think that Peyton being under center more and trying to run a ZBS offense is not what he's built to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kubiak goes all the way to up the bye before changing directions if that is needed. Maybe this style of offense isn't a good fit for Manning but the rule of thumb is that elite quarterbacks like Manning can make any system work. I'm willing cut Mathis some slack because when he was signed. But that said, it wasn't that long ago people were clamoring for signing this guy and how would instantly make the line better and regardless of how long he's been with Broncos that has happened yet.

[TXBRONC]

But when it doesn't work and the offensive line still can't open holes to establish a legitimate ground game in a month, what then?

I don't think the running game can be abandon. Maybe they have come at from a different direction but I don't know if going back to basically everything Manning likes to do is the for the long term.

[SR]

I don't think the running game can be abandon. Maybe they have come at from a different direction but I don't know if going back to basically everything Manning likes to do is the for the long term.

The running game worked great for the last half of the season last year, so why reinvent the wheel? Manning is healthy. Go back to that and pair it with this defense and tell me that isn't going to work.

[VonDoom]

I'm a little torn on this. On one hand, our offense clearly runs better using Manning's system. On the other hand, that system tends to go a little limp-dick once January rolls around. We are still 2-0 (as lucky as it may be) using Kubes' system with Mannin's sprinkled in here and there, so I see no reason not to keep that up for now. If we can get our running game rolling that only helps us in January.

I pretty much agree with this. The Manning offense is fun to watch and I've enjoyed the hell out of these last few years. But it seems to be unsustainable in the playoffs, when we're playing top defenses in cold weather with an old QB. We HAVE to be able to be physical and run the ball in January. I don't really care how we arrive at that point during the season, and I imagine it will take some compromises and some experimentation. But Kubiak continues to preach his philosophy, so I'm hoping it starts to sink in as we go along. For example:

Patrick Smyth ‏@psmyth12 53m53 minutes ago

Coach Kubiak to @850KOA this AM: "We'd like to be balanced. That's the best thing for your football team & best thing for your quarterback."

It's a catch 22, as we've talked about - teams are stacking the box and daring Manning to beat them deep. If he can't do that, we won't be able to run the ball but if we can't run the ball, he'll have no time to get set to make deep throws. Something has to give. Start making just a few of those passes a game and I think we'll be in business. Our schedule before the bye is pretty soft (at Detroit will be tricky, home to Minnesota, at Oakland, at Cleveland). We should hopefully know what we have by then when we have to run the gauntlet in the second half of the season.

[SR]

I think against Detroit Denver needs to start the game in three wide and go deep. Try to keep their defense honest early. Against Baltimore, the Ravens KNEW Denver was going to come out trying to run. They stopped the run, pressured Manning, and the offense could never get anything going. Against KC, that was the case early on, but once the scheme changed in the second half the rhythm started to get there and they were able to move the ball with some deeper passes to DT and Sanders. I think Denver has to use the pass to set up the run. If they hit a couple long passes early the defense will have to hang the safeties high and won't be able to stack the box as much, especially with a TE running a route. Denver could then hopefully gain some momentum running.

[BroncoFanatic]

I think this is where the HC and OC need to earn their paychecks. Use both systems. Find a way to give a look where you start to form up in a power run formation, but then spread out in a shotgun/high octane look..and vice-versa. Really screw with the defense.

[VonDoom]

I think against Detroit Denver needs to start the game in three wide and go deep. Try to keep their defense honest early. Against Baltimore, the Ravens KNEW Denver was going to come out trying to run. They stopped the run, pressured Manning, and the offense could never get anything going. Against KC, that was the case early on, but once the scheme changed in the second half the rhythm started to get there and they were able to move the ball with some deeper passes to DT and Sanders. I think Denver has to use the pass to set up the run. If they hit a couple long passes early the defense will have to hang the safeties high and won't be able to stack the box as much, especially with a TE running a route. Denver could then hopefully gain some momentum running.

I like this idea a lot. It's like the reverse of what most teams do (run to set up the pass later) but it makes sense with our personnel. We have to prove that we can hit some of those deeper passes. Manning is more comfortable in his offense, so starting off that way would be a good way to get him in rhythm. If we can slow it down later and play to Kubiak's offensive strength, it could help give the O-line and RB's some confidence going forward, which would be nice to see.

[underrated29]

I think this is where the HC and OC need to earn their paychecks. Use both systems. Find a way to give a look where you start to form up in a power run formation, but then spread out in a shotgun/high octane look..and vice-versa. Really screw with the defense.




This is along what I think too.....keep blending the offense. Keep pushing til we establish a mean SOB run game. It will break sooner than later. It will come. Keep sticking with it and at the end of the year we will be running hot. Still let manning do his thing though. Let him go shotgun every third series or something. We still need to score points and give our defense a rest. Throw in a shotgun play while running the kubes system. Keep blending it.

It will also be really really hard for defenses to game plan against us. Two different offenses?


Once the line hardens and the run game goes we are going to be impossible to stop. We will grind teams down like the drive against the Ravens. We will be able to score quickly with manning so offense when needed. Our D will be Lock down sexy like always.

[Shazam!]

I just don't think these flaws and the OLine will repair itself and suddenly perform at a high level against top tier opponents.

I'm also a little disappointed in Elway. We have a 40 year old QB who's clock is ticking. To to into the season with a garbage OLine is just unexplainable. More should have been done to protect Peyton and install the System they want.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I just don't think these flaws and the OLine will repair itself and suddenly perform at a high level against top tier opponents.

I'm also a little disappointed in Elway. We have a 40 year old QB who's clock is ticking. To to into the season with a garbage OLine is just unexplainable. More should have been done to protect Peyton and install the System they want.

Well, I don't think they planned on Clady tearing a ligament. I believe this line would look a lot better with him at LT and Ty at RT.

[TXBRONC]

The running game worked great for the last half of the season last year, so why reinvent the wheel? Manning is healthy. Go back to that and pair it with this defense and tell me that isn't going to work.

True enough but four out the five starters are new to offensive line so technically isn't still reinventing the wheel? I see you're being very practical and maybe it would work but with as many personnel changes as Denver went through this past offseason I can't say for sure that it would work.

[silkamilkamonico]

Doesn't even matter.

When it's late in the 3rd quarter and our offense has like 21 yards rushing and a plethora of 3 and outs Kubiak will likely have no choice but to unleash Manning. Let Manning Peyton!

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not shocked that they say this, but at the same time, didn't they say that they were running the offense after the second quarter in the last game?

The question.. how many Super Bowls has Manning won in that offense, is intersting. He's taken teams to 3 and won 1 (better % than Elway), and it was because Manning was in control...being probably the smartest football player in the NFL. One could ask, how many Super Bowls has Kubiak won as HC in response to that question.

So I don't really know what they are considering to be "the same offense." We know they will try to establish the run, that goes without saying. Every team wants/tries to do that, so that can't be "abandoned"...but if they are going to try and stiffle one of the best QBs in the NFL by not letting him do what HE does best, then you are absolutely taking any chance this offense has, out of the equation.

[TXBRONC]

Doesn't even matter.

When it's late in the 3rd quarter and our offense has like 21 yards rushing and a plethora of 3 and outs Kubiak will likely have no choice but to unleash Manning. Let Manning Peyton!

Ah no they're trying to blend Manning's strengths to this scheme.

Apparently Silky you missed Manning's touchdown pass to Green at the end of the first half. That was off of a boot leg my friend.

[Ravage!!!]

Ah no they're trying to blend Manning's strengths to this scheme.

Apparently Silky you missed Manning's touchdown pass to Green at the end of the first half. That was off of a boot leg my friend.

no that wasn't. That was off play action taht was supposed to go to the other TE, but it was covered.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm also not convinced in this "that offense can't be sustained in the playoffs" stuff. I don't think that's true at all. We lost in Baltimore due to defense, not offense. Last year, we had injuries to the very guy that we are now trying to "hide."

[silkamilkamonico]

Well, I don't think they planned on Clady tearing a ligament. I believe this line would look a lot better with him at LT and Ty at RT.

Clady tore his ACL in May - they had plenty of time to address that. Instead, they wait until the last minute, sign Evan Manthis to replace a young guy who looked good, and Mathis has been the worst olinement in the NFL statistically in the first 2 games. We could have just got that from Max Garcia, and had some future growth and possibly building continuity in the process.

The season has a long way to go and there are some things on this Broncos team you have to like moving forward, but good grief Elway and Kubiak have an F- in what they have done with the oline situation at this point.

Our oline couldn't open holes against a Sunbelt team.

[TXBRONC]

no that wasn't. That was off play action taht was supposed to go to the other TE, but it was covered.

Rav just got done watching and yes it was a bootleg.

[silkamilkamonico]

This is the situation. Everyone knows what Kubiak wants to do. And everyone knows that ideally we want to establish the run and be balanced. But this oline is so bad and Kubiak's system this year with the personnel is garbage, hasn't been working and is an utter failure. WE have a chance to find something letting Manning run the offense. You want to argue it won't sustain in the playoffs? Well then big deal the season is lost, because Kubiak's way isn't going to sustain the regular season to get into the playoffs.

[BroncoJoe]

Ah no they're trying to blend Manning's strengths to this scheme.

Apparently Silky you missed Manning's touchdown pass to Green at the end of the first half. That was off of a boot leg my friend.


no that wasn't. That was off play action taht was supposed to go to the other TE, but it was covered.


Rav just got done watching and yes it was a bootleg.

oN9UyBXqhDU

[SR]

Well, I don't think they planned on Clady tearing a ligament. I believe this line would look a lot better with him at LT and Ty at RT.

I don't think Clady will be in Denver next season FWIW.

[SR]

Ah no they're trying to blend Manning's strengths to this scheme. Apparently Silky you missed Manning's touchdown pass to Green at the end of the first half. That was off of a boot leg my friend.

He ran one in against the Cowboys two seasons ago, so should he start running the read option too?

[Valar Morghulis]

I would start against Detroit with manning preferred offense, open up a lead, then introduce a more kubes orientated scheme.

[BroncoJoe]

no that wasn't. That was off play action taht was supposed to go to the other TE, but it was covered.


Rav just got done watching and yes it was a bootleg.

I'd have a really hard time calling that a bootleg.

[SR]

I would start against Detroit with manning preferred offense, open up a lead, then introduce a more kubes orientated scheme.

Why? Detroit will just stuff the box and Colquitt will have 382016 punts.

[TXBRONC]

This is the situation. Everyone knows what Kubiak wants to do. And everyone knows that ideally we want to establish the run and be balanced. But this oline is so bad and Kubiak's system this year with the personnel is garbage, hasn't been working and is an utter failure. WE have a chance to find something letting Manning run the offense. You want to argue it won't sustain in the playoffs? Well then big deal the season is lost, because Kubiak's way isn't going to sustain the regular season to get into the playoffs.

No one is in a position to say what it will look like by the end of season even if they are a first ballot HoF air chair quarterback.. Besides that Kubiak and Elway both said the line would be a work in progress.

Yep everyone knows what Kubiak want to do but they also know that Manning likes to work the short passing game and defenses have been smothering it Silk.

[TXBRONC]

He ran one in against the Cowboys two seasons ago, so should he start running the read option too?

He would be awesome at it if he did.

[Valar Morghulis]

Why? Detroit will just stuff the box and Colquitt will have 382016 punts.

That's not how it went against Kansas (a better defense) when manning played his preferred style

[TXBRONC]

I'd have a really hard time calling that a bootleg.

Fake a hand off to his left and then moves to his right.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav just got done watching and yes it was a bootleg.

Was it? Because I'm wataching it, and they take the snap from the hash, and manning throws it from about 2 feet from the hash. Is he running a boot, or is he running from that defensive end?

Either way. I'll stand corrected on that point, as I don't really have a reason to stand hard on it because it doesn't make much difference either way on anything.

[silkamilkamonico]

That was definitely not a bootleg. Manning drops straight back on the fake and then attempts to roll right but really doesn't. That's not a bootleg, if anything it's a rollout where Manning doesn't really rollout.

[silkamilkamonico]

Was it? Because I'm wataching it, and they take the snap from the hash, and manning throws it from about 2 feet from the hash. Is he running a boot, or is he running from that defensive end?

Either way. I'll stand corrected on that point, as I don't really have a reason to stand hard on it because it doesn't make much difference either way on anything.

A bootleg is a drop back for power run right or left and then circling out to the other side. You could argue that's a rollout after the fake but Manning takes like 2 steps out.

[Ravage!!!]

Fake a hand off to his left and then moves to his right.

Actually.. he doesn't. He fakes the hand off to the right,and moves to the right looking for Owens right off the play action.. its not there.. Manning moves as the defensive end comes at him.. moves about 3 total feet to the right and back away from the rusher as he hits Green.

[TXBRONC]

Was it? Because I'm wataching it, and they take the snap from the hash, and manning throws it from about 2 feet from the hash. Is he running a boot, or is he running from that defensive end?

Either way. I'll stand corrected on that point, as I don't really have a reason to stand hard on it because it doesn't make much difference either way on anything.

It looks like he was headed to right but Houston had was in the way. Anyway Manning was on the move when he threw it.

[SR]

That's not how it went against Kansas (a better defense) when manning played his preferred style

Different situation. If Denver started off hot, built a lead and sat on it while trying to force a non-existent run game they would punt more and put the ball in Detroit's hands more.

[Valar Morghulis]

Different situation. If Denver started off hot, built a lead and sat on it while trying to force a non-existent run game they would punt more and put the ball in Detroit's hands more.

IMO - if Manning started off hot - then moved to a run game detroit could not sell out to stop the run - because manning would have already proved his arm deserved to be resepcted, therefore, again IMO - that would allow the team to build a run game and the chemistry that goes with it.

I dont think that should be the tactic every week - but it makes sense to me for now as a way to establish a ground game

[TXBRONC]

That was definitely not a bootleg. Manning drops straight back on the fake and then attempts to roll right but really doesn't. That's not a bootleg, if anything it's a rollout where Manning doesn't really rollout.

No he didn't. He was moving to his Houston had gotten past Harris and if Manning had kept going to his right his right he would have been sacked. There isn't much difference. Besides that, was moving in direction but again it was interrupted by Houston. But if you're calling it rollout do so, fact is he still threw while on the move.

[Timmy!]

Talk is cheap.....and you don't tell your opponent what youre going to do.

Watch as we are in the gun first play :lol:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think it's a benefit to be able to play either system based on what's working and what's not. Kubiak's zone scheme does include some bootleg, but that's not the bread and butter of the passing game. The bread and butter is the short pass off play action once the running game is working. I have yet to see us effectively use the FB for either run blocking or pass catching.

More often than not, the bootleg is used after play action to buy time and space to give the WRs time to get deep. Manning missed on those deeper bootleg throws because he didn't set his feet. He had time to (the bootleg worked) but he threw on the run which isn't his forte.

Whichever way we decide to go, run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run, the line must do a better job. It also hurts that we have an unreliable slot receiver right now. Norwood is fine when he can use his speed and quickness to get open, but he doesn't win at the LOS and isn't a guy that can/will fight for contested balls.

[Ravage!!!]

"being able to run both systems".... I'm not sure there is much of adifference in running one system from the next, other than the QB is in shotgun rather than under center. Play calls are play calls. The problem comes from practice time. If you are spending 50% on one thing, and 50% on another, then you've essentially spent half the time on one thing.

So far, it seems really really bad to have manning throw on the move...he's very inaccurate at throwing while on the move/run. Something he's nver worked on much (as you can clearly see)..and he just has no idea how to get his shoulders turned while moving to his left. It's awkward to watch, and its painful to see.

Everyone wants a 'stronger running game.' That mantra hasn't changed throughout football....but Walsh used the pass to set up the run, and I think that's something we need to do rather than the sad attempts we've been making.... so far.

[FanInAZ]

I have never played a penny of fantasy, in fact I despise hearing about it on tv when trying to watch actual nfl news, but in my limited fantasy experience...I would recommend you not sign him :)

I bet MO would approve of me signing these guys...,

...he my opponent this week :listen:

If I was going to make room for all 4 of those scrubs, I'd have to cut Antonio Brown of the Steelers all together. :lol:

[SR]

IMO - if Manning started off hot - then moved to a run game detroit could not sell out to stop the run - because manning would have already proved his arm deserved to be resepcted, therefore, again IMO - that would allow the team to build a run game and the chemistry that goes with it. I dont think that should be the tactic every week - but it makes sense to me for now as a way to establish a ground game

I disagree. Trying to establish a run game late with a lead when the run game has been non-existent this season is a bad tactic. Teams that turn to the run game with a lead generally do so to kill clock, but if the run game cannot be established then it's punt after punt and putting the hands back in the other team's offense. Bad if you ask me.

[Valar Morghulis]

I disagree. Trying to establish a run game late with a lead when the run game has been non-existent this season is a bad tactic. Teams that turn to the run game with a lead generally do so to kill clock, but if the run game cannot be established then it's punt after punt and putting the hands back in the other team's offense. Bad if you ask me.

fair enough homie

[FanInAZ]

I disagree. Trying to establish a run game late with a lead when the run game has been non-existent this season is a bad tactic. Teams that turn to the run game with a lead generally do so to kill clock, but if the run game cannot be established then it's punt after punt and putting the hands back in the other team's offense. Bad if you ask me.

This was the #1 issue that my dad & I had with Dan Reeves. Our running game was mediocre at best, completely inept when in "ball control" mode late in games with the lead. Every drive was the same.

1st & 2nd down: D ignores the pass & put 8 or 9 in the box to stop the run.
Plays:Hand the ball to RB who gets stuffed both times resulting in 3rd & 7 or longer.

3rd down: D ignores the run & sells out to stop the pass.
Play: Either an incomplete pass or a draw that comes up a yard or 2 short of the 1st.

4th down: Punt

If you want to use the run late in the game run out the clock, you need to build a running game that can produce a 12,000 yard rusher. Kubiak has done it before, but its going to take some time to bring in more of his type of players to replace Fox's type of players before he can do it again here.

[MOtorboat]

I was told when Kubiak was hired that good coaches like Kubiak play to their players strengths. I hope those people were right.

[FanInAZ]

I was told when Kubiak was hired that good coaches like Kubiak play to their players strengths. I hope those people were right.

You can't play to the strength of weaklings.

[NightTerror218]

2 games and every one acts like the world is ending. I much rather it be bumpy early on the season while everyone learns the new offense during game time. Rather then fall apart at the end of the season.

Everyone bashes OL but 2 brand new starters with 0 starts and a new guy to this system. It will get better but will be humpy road.

[SR]

2 games and every one acts like the world is ending. I much rather it be bumpy early on the season while everyone learns the new offense during game time. Rather then fall apart at the end of the season. Everyone bashes OL but 2 brand new starters with 0 starts and a new guy to this system. It will get better but will be humpy road.

Four new guys...

[BroncoJoe]

We should rename this site BroncosOverReationForums.com

:)

[underrated29]

Ive been saying that i expect to see a big jump in the OL by week 4. Still two to go.

[SR]

Ive been saying that i expect to see a big jump in the OL by week 4. Still two to go.

Week four will come and it'll be the same thing we saw against KC.

[Northman]

Rav just got done watching and yes it was a bootleg.

Actually homie, it wasnt. Manning never rolls out for a bootleg. He was still in between the tackles when he made the pass (off his back foot no less). I thought it was strange when you told me he had passed off the bootleg as i didnt remember it that way. But this clip shows that it wasnt a bootleg so at this point Manning is still 0-3 when rolling out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN9UyBXqhDU

[Joel]

:shocked: Maybe I should load up & Denver WRs. I already have Sanders, & MO has Thomas.

Maybe I should grab Jordan Norwood, Andre Caldwell, Wes Welker &/or Cody Latimer just in case they have the game of their careers :D

His playing time and the DP party line suggest Norwood's a good choice if Manning yet again mutes his critics (for a while...) but the only way you're likely to ever see Welker in FF again is as an opponent.


Hopefully the return of Derek Wolfe in Week 5 will improve the rush D.
I expect that, yeah, because he's lethal vs. the run. It's funny that not long ago many posters (including me) lamented lacking the personnel to shift to a 3-4, but now we're pretty well set (though I wish our ILBs were bigger, especially the backups.) Wolfe and Jackson are prototypical 3-4 DEs, so one was always wasted in our 4-3 (since that needs a pure pass rusher at RDE) and even the other doomed to the same criticism leveled against Ayers and Phillips: Mediocre pass rusher, "only" a solid run stuffer. But in a 3-4, that's pretty much the job description of both DEs, and Wolfe and Jackson excel at it.

While we wait for Wolfe, we just see what Antonio Smith has left, and (hopefully) get Anunike some real experience that'll be invaluable spelling Wolfe and Jackson down the road. But: Our run D's STILL not bad, not even statistically, really. The Ravens barely averaged 3 yds/att against us, <90 total. Charles gashed us a few times on KCs first and final TD drives, for most of his yardage and both scores, but our D took the ball from him as many times, costing KC at least a FG and then the GAME: They at least broke even against an All Pro.

[Joel]

But Manning does not have a decent OLine.
Right, and until/unless that changes, debating offensive styles is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. If/when it changes the debate will be like Armstrong and Aldrin arguing over who gets the first moonwalk.


I just don't think these flaws and the OLine will repair itself and suddenly perform at a high level against top tier opponents.
It won't happen on its own, no: That's why we brought back Kubiak and Dennison, why THEY cut a forest worth of dead wood, drafted a guy they like and grabbed FA vets they like to fill the gap until more drafts. I wanted one more rookie and less FA for long term reasons, but drafting 2020s All Pros won't help PFM win a final SB in 2015, so there's a good argument for the balance Elway and our coaches chose.


I'm also a little disappointed in Elway. We have a 40 year old QB who's clock is ticking. To to into the season with a garbage OLine is just unexplainable. More should have been done to protect Peyton and install the System they want.

I didn't have the balls to SAY it around here, but that's how I felt all last year, after we grabbed Roby and Latimer but stood pat on an awful line (not even that, since Beadles left for more cash.) I think Elway's doing the right things now, but fear he's fallen into the classic generals trap of trying to refight the last war, or maybe just done too little too late for Mannings 2nd championship. Kubiak and Dennison will eventually get our line right, but it's SO bad it could take half a season: I REALLY wish that season had been 2014, because I don't expect another from Manning.


I wouldn't be surprised if Kubiak goes all the way to up the bye before changing directions if that is needed. Maybe this style of offense isn't a good fit for Manning but the rule of thumb is that elite quarterbacks like Manning can make any system work. I'm willing cut Mathis some slack because when he was signed. But that said, it wasn't that long ago people were clamoring for signing this guy and how would instantly make the line better and regardless of how long he's been with Broncos that has happened yet.

The clamoring was due to the same thing that made him an All Pro: Performance. I don't think either of our Pro Bowl guards suddenly turned to crap when two of the best line coaches ever replaced a defensive and QBs coach. LOOKING like crap despite their record and coaching is strong evidence our lines current problems are at least as much system experience, knowledge and chemistry as talent and skill. Knowledge, experience, chemistry and skill can all grow, that's what coaches are paid for and Kubiak and Dennison have earned that pay throughout their careers. The question's when, not if, we get there.


I think Kubiak knows his personnel a thousand times better any of us fans. He and Elway both said the line would be a work in progress. Scrapping the offense just because things have been difficult would be foolish. Kubiak's offense is a rhythm centric offense.
Anyone who didn't know it would be a work in progress wasn't paying attention: THREE new starters, one from the PS, one a rookie and one who'd only been on the team a MONTH. And in between we lost an All Pro LT, so the rookie went from a RT spot where he had time to learn into protecting a first ballot HoFer from the NFLs best pass rushers. What could we expect?

Run whatever system/formations we want; spread, shotgun, or empty backfield; WC, Run 'n Shoot or Martyball. Run a Flying Wedge: NONE of them will work until we have an effective line (actually, the Flying Wedge technically could, since preventing it was the reason the line of scrimmage was created, but it's illegal for the same reason, and awful for player safety.)

Oh, and lest anyone complain about long-winded spam: These replies quoted and addressed most of the last FOUR PAGES, but only used about HALF a page (counting quotes) doing it.

[Joel]

Doesn't even matter.

When it's late in the 3rd quarter and our offense has like 21 yards rushing and a plethora of 3 and outs Kubiak will likely have no choice but to unleash Manning. Let Manning Peyton!

This has been true so far and must remain so until/unless we have a line worthy of the name. Fingers crossed and candles lit Manning holds up that long.


I give it a couple more weeks of trying his offense before he looks to lean more toward Manning's strengths. I'm not sure how much better the offensive line will get as the season wears on. I know it's a new offense and all but so far I'm unimpressed with Evan Mathis. I just really think that Peyton being under center more and trying to run a ZBS offense is not what he's built to do.

Maybe, but Manning didn't constantly run Addai and Edgerrin James out of shotgun, yet they did OK. He's not so megalomaniacal he WANTS to be a one-man offense, especially after a few years being forced and heart-to-hearts with a GM who went down that road too many times himself. Did Manning look better at the end of ANY of his Broncos seasons? How was he with our Swiss Cheese line and no run support in the SB? Seattle made him run for his life with NO BLITZ, with 7 guys all over those short routes. Remember when MANNING CALLED RUNS to end the game vs. Baltimore in 2012? DID it end the game?


I'm not shocked that they say this, but at the same time, didn't they say that they were running the offense after the second quarter in the last game?

The question.. how many Super Bowls has Manning won in that offense, is intersting. He's taken teams to 3 and won 1 (better % than Elway), and it was because Manning was in control...being probably the smartest football player in the NFL. One could ask, how many Super Bowls has Kubiak won as HC in response to that question.

So I don't really know what they are considering to be "the same offense." We know they will try to establish the run, that goes without saying. Every team wants/tries to do that, so that can't be "abandoned"...but if they are going to try and stiffle one of the best QBs in the NFL by not letting him do what HE does best, then you are absolutely taking any chance this offense has, out of the equation.

Wait: 33% (Mannings SB win percentage) isn't better than 40% (Elways,) especially when we factor in Elway REACHING nearly TWICE as many. The key thing is that EVERY time Denver was forced to "let Elway be Elway (why is Reeves so STUPID?111)" HE LOST, but EVERY time he had HoFers on his line and in his backfield he WON. Elway had a fine final game, but his first SB wins stats were pretty pedestrian for a first ballot HoFer; didn't matter, because Terrell Davis ran for 3 TDs, something NO ONE BEFORE NOR SINCE has done.

Hmmm... "unimaginative" coach so "stubbornly" committed to his mentors "obsolete" legacy that he won't "let our HoFer be our HoFer;" why does this sound so familiar...? ;)

Elway knows as well as anyone why so many Broncos fans still think Reeves was a bum. But '87 Elway and '97 Elway were different people, not just physically, but in wisdom: And SB results.


I'm also not convinced in this "that offense can't be sustained in the playoffs" stuff. I don't think that's true at all. We lost in Baltimore due to defense, not offense. Last year, we had injuries to the very guy that we are now trying to "hide."

The 2012 playoff was a team loss; the D did (or didn't) its part, but it wasn't all on Moore, nor even on Moore and Champ:

What happens if "letting Manning be Manning" doesn't end our final possession with an Int around our 30? What happens if Hillman converts our last regulation series instead of running for 2, 1 and 0 yds?

What happens if Prater makes his pre-halftime 50 yd FG (at Mile High) to give us a 10 pt lead, instead of kicking the DIRT and giving Baltimore great field position for a 2:00 drill to tie?

Answer: If ANY of those things happen, we win; if the second two happen, Moore doesn't even get a CHANCE to blow a DBs most basic job, because even a last second Hail Mary can't save the Ravens. And one of "those things" is having a line that wasn't an embarrassment, so we can kill the clock with a TD lead at the end of regulation: That's why MANNING TRIED THAT VERY THING. In case that's still unclear, that day, "letting Manning be Manning" meant he audibled to a RUN to end the game; not his fault what "passed" for his line couldn't deliver.


Actually.. he doesn't. He fakes the hand off to the right,and moves to the right looking for Owens right off the play action.. its not there.. Manning moves as the defensive end comes at him.. moves about 3 total feet to the right and back away from the rusher as he hits Green.


It looks like he was headed to right but Houston had was in the way. Anyway Manning was on the move when he threw it.

If EITHER of those statements is true (let alone BOTH) that's just more proof our line leaves our offense in big trouble whether we "let Manning be Manning" or not. I honestly don't remember the plays specifics well enough to be sure, so must ask: Was it a shotgun PA/bootleg? It WORKED, which playing from under center supposedly CAN'T, so presumably the answer's "yes." Shotgun PA (let alone bootleg) sounds kinda weird, but apparently that's the sole possibility. ;)


I think against Detroit Denver needs to start the game in three wide and go deep. Try to keep their defense honest early. Against Baltimore, the Ravens KNEW Denver was going to come out trying to run. They stopped the run, pressured Manning, and the offense could never get anything going. Against KC, that was the case early on, but once the scheme changed in the second half the rhythm started to get there and they were able to move the ball with some deeper passes to DT and Sanders. I think Denver has to use the pass to set up the run. If they hit a couple long passes early the defense will have to hang the safeties high and won't be able to stack the box as much, especially with a TE running a route. Denver could then hopefully gain some momentum running.

"Passing to establish the run" can't work, because the run's neither dangerous nor fast enough. The reason teams kept running to establish the pass for decades even after passing became normal and proficient wasn't that coaches were all old fogies who wouldn't adapt: It was because if prioritizing run D costs 3 passing TDs/half but prioritizing pass D only costs 2/game, the bigger threat and thus top priority will always be passing. Defenses don't let opponents pass UNLESS those opponents first run well enough to MAKE the D reprioritize. Hence a big problem with offenses like ours and the misnamed "spread:")


It's a catch 22, as we've talked about - teams are stacking the box and daring Manning to beat them deep. If he can't do that, we won't be able to run the ball but if we can't run the ball, he'll have no time to get set to make deep throws. Something has to give. Start making just a few of those passes a game and I think we'll be in business. Our schedule before the bye is pretty soft (at Detroit will be tricky, home to Minnesota, at Oakland, at Cleveland). We should hopefully know what we have by then when we have to run the gauntlet in the second half of the season.

One of the runs biggest purposes is forcing safeties up and LBs out of zone to stack the box so deep passes DEFENSES COVER BY DEFAULT come open: What happens to that when the passing game ITSELF is mostly quick outs, slants etc. right into that stacked box? Remember the bubble screen everyone loved so much when DT scampered around tacklers for 80 yd TDs? Then defenses did what they do, we started facing 7 and 8 man coverage and the ongoing "Why the :censored: did we run ANOTHER bubble screen?!" complaints began.


IMO - if Manning started off hot - then moved to a run game detroit could not sell out to stop the run - because manning would have already proved his arm deserved to be resepcted, therefore, again IMO - that would allow the team to build a run game and the chemistry that goes with it.

I dont think that should be the tactic every week - but it makes sense to me for now as a way to establish a ground game

There you go: The days selling out on the run and daring QBs to win with bombs were the norm are long gone because ANY QB good enough to for NFL starts wins that dare every day of the week and twice on SB Sunday. Defenses default to concentrating on the guy who can easily hang 30 pts on them by the half if they DON'T, willingly settling for occasional long runs, a 100 yd rushing game and a rushing TD or two instead. The only way to change that is to consistently move the chains on the ground, REGULARLY gash them for long runs and score rushing TDs until they MUST shift focus: Establish the pass.


I think this is where the HC and OC need to earn their paychecks. Use both systems. Find a way to give a look where you start to form up in a power run formation, but then spread out in a shotgun/high octane look..and vice-versa. Really screw with the defense.

Good idea in principle, and the reason I prefer running lots of plays out of a few formations to running a few plays out of lots of formations: When the D knows you always do one of just three things, WHICH formation/personnel do the SAME THING every down becomes far less relevant. Conversely, even a handful of formations remain mysterious as long as each regularly does dozens of different things ranging from line plunges to Hail Maries. That's actually among the best arguments for shotgun runs.

I'm unsure coming out under center before a planned last second switch to shotgun (or vice versa) is practical though. As long as no one but the QB moves it doesn't change the total defensive dynamic too much, and if ANYONE else moves at the same time it's an illegal procedure penalty. The rules makers kinda saw that one coming a while ago. ;)

[Ravage!!!]

I gotta admit, I didn't read that.

[Northman]

Got to give him credit though, he used the quotation option correctly. lmao

[SR]

I gotta admit, I didn't read that.

Neither did I. Don't feel bad.

[TXBRONC]

I think it's a benefit to be able to play either system based on what's working and what's not. Kubiak's zone scheme does include some bootleg, but that's not the bread and butter of the passing game. The bread and butter is the short pass off play action once the running game is working. I have yet to see us effectively use the FB for either run blocking or pass catching.

More often than not, the bootleg is used after play action to buy time and space to give the WRs time to get deep. Manning missed on those deeper bootleg throws because he didn't set his feet. He had time to (the bootleg worked) but he threw on the run which isn't his forte.

Whichever way we decide to go, run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run, the line must do a better job. It also hurts that we have an unreliable slot receiver right now. Norwood is fine when he can use his speed and quickness to get open, but he doesn't win at the LOS and isn't a guy that can/will fight for contested balls.

It can be the bread and butter for the passing game. It was for Plummer but it wasn't Elway and several other quarterbacks that came through Denver.

[wayninja]

We should rename this site BroncosOverReationForums.com

:)

Why? Because no one here knows how to spell?

[Joel]

I gotta admit, I didn't read that.
Fair enough, but, again: A half-page of responses AND quotation of the most posts on the last FOUR pages feels like a minor accomplishment. The posts alone took 8X as much space as I needed to cite AND reply to each. I blame headers and signatures (a big reason I multi-quote even though it makes posts even longer: A dozen individual replies with individual headers and sigs would fill even more of the screen.)


Got to give him credit though, he used the quotation option correctly. lmao
See preceding parentheses. ;)

[Joel]

It can be the bread and butter for the passing game. It was for Plummer but it wasn't Elway and several other quarterbacks that came through Denver.
That's because Plummer was NOT among the QBs who can play any system well. Watching Plummer try to be a pocket passer was about as much fun as watching Griese try to scramble. He was actually LEAST accurate IN the pocket; I still don't know how that's even possible.... :confused:

[TXBRONC]

That's because Plummer was NOT among the QBs who can play any system well. Watching Plummer try to be a pocket passer was about as much fun as watching Griese try to scramble. He was actually LEAST accurate IN the pocket; I still don't know how that's even possible.... :confused:

That really wasn't my point bro. My only point is that rolling out or boot legging doesn't have to be done in a WCO.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

That's because Plummer was NOT among the QBs who can play any system well. Watching Plummer try to be a pocket passer was about as much fun as watching Griese try to scramble. He was actually LEAST accurate IN the pocket; I still don't know how that's even possible.... :confused:

That really wasn't my point bro. My only point is that rolling out or boot legging doesn't have to be done in a WCO.

That was my point, too. The bootleg is only part of Kubiak's offense meant to give the QB ample time to hit the deep throw but he's expected to stop, load up, set his feet and chuck it. Ala Elway, Cutler, and even Oz during that preseason bomb to Bubba.

[Joel]

That really wasn't my point bro. My only point is that rolling out or boot legging doesn't have to be done in a WCO.
Right, I was just corroborating: Yes, Kubiak ran tons of bootlegs with Plummer--because Plummer was so erratically uncomfortable in the pocket. As I recall the debate at the time, many people demanded Shanny and Kubes "let Plummer be Plummer," aimlessly roaming the hashes dodging LBs till he spotted a gap or someone coming open: Stop stubbornly FORCING our gifted natural bootlegger to do it YOUR way, coach! Some of that was because Plummer was so awkward in the pocket; he managed it a couple times, most notably '05, but when it all came crashing down that year it was down for the count.

I'm not even convinced Kubiak especially wants a bootlegger, except in the broadest sense that everyone wants a QB like Rodgers who does EVERYTHING well. It just so happens the only first ballot HoFers Kubiak ever coached before Manning were lethal runners; they also happened to be lethal passers though, and I bet Kubiak would pick that if forced to choose. Not that he wants another statue like Griese or Schaub, I'm sure, but he's been around long enough to see countless so-called "dual threats" vanish because running was their SOLE threat in a job where passing's a prerequisite.

*shrugs* The only HoFers Kubiak's ever had were gifted runners as well as passers, but EVERY starter he's ever had reached at least one Pro Bowl, whether a great passer, runner or both (or even neither.) Call it WC or whatever (I frankly think our run-first Shanahan offense was the antithesis of pass-only WC, but care less about nomenclature than performance.) It works by any name, with any talents.

One of the marks of a good system is that it doesn't stand or fall on one specific (and thus to find) set of talents to the exclusion of all others, but can adapt to what's available. As long as the coach doesn't make the mistake of thinking a great system SO great it OBVIATES talent, it's fine, and if Kubiak needed a reminder after Griese, Schaub provided a pointed one.

[NightTerror218]

Four new guys...

Why I said 2 new guys with 0 starts, as in never played nfl snap before.

[Joel]

Why I said 2 new guys with 0 starts, as in never played nfl snap before.
Technically, Paradis was PS last year, but I don't recall him ever getting called up, activated and played. If memory serves, we went straight to Montgomery and stuck with him because he did better than anyone since we lost Koppen for good. Sucks how that went: Bring over a solid vet, he has a good year, then hangs it up; we coax him out of retirement because we're desperate and he tears his ACL in camp.

Anyway, yeah, our CURRENT line also sucks for everyone in a different way. WHICHEVER way we look at it there's only 1 returning Bronco (in the sense of last years team, so Harris doesn't count; at least that one returning Bronco's an All Pro.) But there's also only 1 with ZBS experience, 2 with starting experience (but at least the other's an All Pro) and 3 with NFL experience (one of whom's barely had time to read the playbook, much less memorize it.) No surprise it's a trainwreck; the question is how fast we can get them sorted, and where their ceiling is.

It's not whether they can CURRENTLY produce '98 Terrell Davis or '13 Peyton Manning numbers. Right NOW they can't manage HALF of either, so neither can we. I realize most linemen aren't equally good at pass protection AND run blocking, because there's too big a difference between making holes downfield and preventing them in the backfield. But ours currently suck at both, and I'm optimistic they'll eventually be at least adequate at both; conversely, until/unless that happens, debating offensive philosophies isn't determining how to win, but a preference for how to lose.

After nine non-game days (but far from nine days OFF) the Lions game should be very interesting--one way or another....

[NightTerror218]

Technically, Paradis was PS last year, but I don't recall him ever getting called up, activated and played. If memory serves, we went straight to Montgomery and stuck with him because he did better than anyone since we lost Koppen for good. Sucks how that went: Bring over a solid vet, he has a good year, then hangs it up; we coax him out of retirement because we're desperate and he tears his ACL in camp.

Anyway, yeah, our CURRENT line also sucks for everyone in a different way. WHICHEVER way we look at it there's only 1 returning Bronco (in the sense of last years team, so Harris doesn't count; at least that one returning Bronco's an All Pro.) But there's also only 1 with ZBS experience, 2 with starting experience (but at least the other's an All Pro) and 3 with NFL experience (one of whom's barely had time to read the playbook, much less memorize it.) No surprise it's a trainwreck; the question is how fast we can get them sorted, and where their ceiling is.

It's not whether they can CURRENTLY produce '98 Terrell Davis or '13 Peyton Manning numbers. Right NOW they can't manage HALF of either, so neither can we. I realize most linemen aren't equally good at pass protection AND run blocking, because there's too big a difference between making holes downfield and preventing them in the backfield. But ours currently suck at both, and I'm optimistic they'll eventually be at least adequate at both; conversely, until/unless that happens, debating offensive philosophies isn't determining how to win, but a preference for how to lose.

After nine non-game days (but far from nine days OFF) the Lions game should be very interesting--one way or another....

I know Paradis was on PS and we have a rookie starting.

Two players who have never taken a snap in NFL. I was stating we have enough two very inexperienced players. That was point I was making. They will learn.

[Joel]

I know Paradis was on PS and we have a rookie starting.

Two players who have never taken a snap in NFL. I was stating we have enough two very inexperienced players. That was point I was making. They will learn.
Right, and agreed; it's just even worse than that because Mathis didn't get here till 2 weeks before Opening Day: Tons of NFL experience, but none (to my knowledge) with the ZBS, which Elway himself recently noted has "lots of moving parts." The main thing worrying me about that is that, while it could explain his awful run blocking, I don't know how it could affect the pass blocking he's been doing for a decade: And he's been awful at that so far, too. In terms of experienced ZBS blockers, we have Harris and Daniels (and that's a big reason we DO have them) but NO ONE else.

It's hard to keep track of the MANY developmental and chemistry problems for this line, on top of which Mannings had less practice time than ever to learn our very complex system. The only good news is that when it's THAT bad EVERYWHERE it almost MUST improve: Up's the only direction to go from rock bottom. But it's also only natural people are already tired of holding their breath while waiting.

[BroncoJoe]

Why? Because no one here knows how to spell?

Ah, SOB!

[BroncoJoe]

That was my point, too. The bootleg is only part of Kubiak's offense meant to give the QB ample time to hit the deep throw but he's expected to stop, load up, set his feet and chuck it. Ala Elway, Cutler, and even Oz during that preseason bomb to Bubba.

Don't forget the king of the bootleg - Mr. Jake "the Snake" Plummer!

[VonDoom]

Right, and agreed; it's just even worse than that because Mathis didn't get here till 2 weeks before Opening Day: Tons of NFL experience, but none (to my knowledge) with the ZBS, which Elway himself recently noted has "lots of moving parts." The main thing worrying me about that is that, while it could explain his awful run blocking, I don't know how it could affect the pass blocking he's been doing for a decade: And he's been awful at that so far, too. In terms of experienced ZBS blockers, we have Harris and Daniels (and that's a big reason we DO have them) but NO ONE else.

It's hard to keep track of the MANY developmental and chemistry problems for this line, on top of which Mannings had less practice time than ever to learn our very complex system. The only good news is that when it's THAT bad EVERYWHERE it almost MUST improve: Up's the only direction to go from rock bottom. But it's also only natural people are already tired of holding their breath while waiting.

Actually, Mathis HAS ZBS experience, which is why many of us (including me) thought he'd be a great fit here. This article was put up on NFL.com when he was first released and talks about that some:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000496735/article/four-potential-landing-spots-for-evan-mathis

But in any case, so far, I chalk Mathis' troubles up to rust (he didn't have an offseason program with anyone) and unfamiliarity (not all zone blocking systems are the same). He was given a veteran deal, where he didn't have to play in any real game action and just trusted that he would be fine since he's been so good in the past. So far that hasn't been the case, but I have to assume he's going to be better. Elway has been good about avoiding the "I'm finished in this league but people will pay me one last time based on reputation" FA type and I don't think that's Mathis.

[TXBRONC]

Actually, Mathis HAS ZBS experience, which is why many of us (including me) thought he'd be a great fit here. This article was put up on NFL.com when he was first released and talks about that some:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000496735/article/four-potential-landing-spots-for-evan-mathis

But in any case, so far, I chalk Mathis' troubles up to rust (he didn't have an offseason program with anyone) and unfamiliarity (not all zone blocking systems are the same). He was given a veteran deal, where he didn't have to play in any real game action and just trusted that he would be fine since he's been so good in the past. So far that hasn't been the case, but I have to assume he's going to be better. Elway has been good about avoiding the "I'm finished in this league but people will pay me one last time based on reputation" FA type and I don't think that's Mathis.

I've said something similar. Mathis hasn't played well these first two games but I'm sure much of it has to do with timing of his arrival. I'm sure there is some variations on the zone blocking system but Mathis in an interview when he first arrived said the biggest challenge is the terminology.

[Joel]

Actually, Mathis HAS ZBS experience, which is why many of us (including me) thought he'd be a great fit here. This article was put up on NFL.com when he was first released and talks about that some:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000496735/article/four-potential-landing-spots-for-evan-mathis

I'm still unsure Kellys offense is a true ZBS or anything else except a collection of college gimmicks, so unsure that counts. Even if it does, Kelly tossed Mathis, a bad argument for his ZBS skills.


But in any case, so far, I chalk Mathis' troubles up to rust (he didn't have an offseason program with anyone) and unfamiliarity (not all zone blocking systems are the same). He was given a veteran deal, where he didn't have to play in any real game action and just trusted that he would be fine since he's been so good in the past. So far that hasn't been the case, but I have to assume he's going to be better. Elway has been good about avoiding the "I'm finished in this league but people will pay me one last time based on reputation" FA type and I don't think that's Mathis.

I generally agree, but add familiary with teammates, because 1) he was consistently VERY good in the past and 2) I can't see a connection between the ZBS and pass protection. His pass protection so far's been at least as bad as his run blocking, and protections requirements are dictated by how each D attacks it, not the teams own style. As long as it's just straight up hat-on-hat blocking, the ZBS and everyone else don't matter, but when the D gets cute with stunts, delayed blitzes, safety/CB blitzes, etc. each linemen needs to know where his partners will be and how they'll react so all cooperate.

NONE of our linemen can know that yet, but all will figure it out more as they play together. They've literally put it "together" a few times so far (most notably our final drive vs. Baltimore,) despite missing more than they hit: We know they CAN do it now, occasionally; it's just a matter of doing it consistently. That's itself a matter of collective routine, but no one still learning all their coworkers' names has any kind of routine with them. If it still looks like this come Halloween we're in trouble, but does anyone REALLY think it will?

[wayninja]

I'm still unsure Kellys offense is a true ZBS or anything else except a collection of college gimmicks, so unsure that counts. Even if it does, Kelly tossed Mathis, a bad argument for his ZBS skills.

I don't know about this. Kelly tossed some pretty prime talent. His hubris is such that I'm not sure talent can be gauged solely on Kelly's personnel moves. I'm not ready to call Mathis a loser just yet.

[Joel]

I don't know about this. Kelly tossed some pretty prime talent. His hubris is such that I'm not sure talent can be gauged solely on Kelly's personnel moves. I'm not ready to call Mathis a loser just yet.
A very valid point, and I'm definitely not ready to call a former All Pro a loser after 2 games his first month on the team. I'm just not sure Kelly has enough of a coherent rigorous "philosophy" to say Mathis has experience with it, let alone how much or what quality. If he worked for a guy who chose stocks with a dart board I wouldn't say, "he has market analyst experience." ;)

[wayninja]

A very valid point, and I'm definitely not ready to call a former All Pro a loser after 2 games his first month on the team. I'm just not sure Kelly has enough of a coherent rigorous "philosophy" to say Mathis has experience with it, let alone how much or what quality. If he worked for a guy who chose stocks with a dart board I wouldn't say, "he has market analyst experience." ;)

Given that the Greek etymology of the word "philosophy" means a love of wisdom, I'd agree that that there is nothing rigorous or coherent about his schemes. You sorta have to know what reality is and be sane enough to even come close to understanding what a philosophy is, let alone subscribe to one. As such, I see Kelly's moves more like a random number generator than anything resembling an actual strategy.

So yeah. Not giving up on Mathis just yet. And even if I do decide to give up on Mathis, I highly doubt Kelly's opinion of him will reinforce my beliefs one way or the other.

[Joel]

Given that the Greek etymology of the word "philosophy" means a love of wisdom, I'd agree that that there is nothing rigorous or coherent about his schemes. You sorta have to know what reality is and be sane enough to even come close to understanding what a philosophy is, let alone subscribe to one. As such, I see Kelly's moves more like a random number generator than anything resembling an actual strategy.

So yeah. Not giving up on Mathis just yet. And even if I do decide to give up on Mathis, I highly doubt Kelly's opinion of him will reinforce my beliefs one way or the other.
Definitely, but all that's why saying Mathis has ZB experience from Kellys "system" doesn't mean much to me. If KELLY doesn't know wtf he's doing, he surely can't teach it to anyone else. About all Mathis' Philly resume could demonstrate in that scenario is that the better he performed DESPITE Kelly the better he's likely to perform AWAY FROM him.

[slim]

Good

[CrazyHorse]

Peyton's Pistol is fine by me.

[wayninja]

Peyton's Pistol is fine by me.

You probably need to find a better way to say that.

[CrazyHorse]

You probably need to find a better way to say that.

LOL. It has a nice ring to it.

[Valar Morghulis]

Jaded.....what did you think on the pistol usage against Detroit?

[TXBRONC]

Peyton's Pistol is fine by me.

He showed you his pistol? :shocked:

[wayninja]

He showed you his pistol? :shocked:

Yep, and it blew a back right through his A-gap.

[TXBRONC]

Yep, and it blew a back right through his A-gap.

#reload

[dogfish]

Jaded.....what did you think on the pistol usage against Detroit?

damn it, dave, don't taunt the man! this is tough enough for him as it is. . . :heh: