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View Full Version : Video Review of Key Moments - The OL



Cugel
09-20-2015, 03:57 PM
Taking a closer look at each of the key offensive plays in the game from the point of view of the OL. You didn't think it would be pretty, and it's not.

But take a look at this stuff. I DEFY anybody to watch these videos and conclude that anything in this game is Manning's fault or that is arm is a "noodle." His OL played horribly the entire night (with the exception of the last drive in the 4th). He made play after play with defenders right in his face. It was simply a brilliant performance and the more I re-watch it the more I admire him for it.

But, the OL needs a TON of work:

Sanders First TD Pass. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533018&tab=videos)

Time elapsed: 1 second.
1st sanders td catch as Peyton in shotgun beats the blitz and throws in under 1 second to a wide open Sanders. Jailbreak as KC line comes through but Peyton does catch and release. He doesn’t even secure the football before instantly throwing it.

Virgil Greene TD Pass: (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533027&tab=videos)

Time elapsed: <2 seconds
Peyton under center. Broncos have 6 OL (including TE James Casey in to block. Jailbreak. Peyton backpedals and never has time to set up with Justin Houston coming right through Ryan Harris. Broncos have 7 men on the line but are pushed back immediately. CJ Anderson tries to cut him, but Houston goes right through him like he’s not there. Peyton throws off his back foot to the back of the end-zone where Virgil Greene makes a juggling catch. Play was designed to go to right flat to Demaryius or Casey, but both get engulfed by defenders. DT comes into the middle to try and help out with the blocking because the defenders are splitting the double team on the inside.

Peyton Sacked by Justin Houston (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533070&tab=videos)

Peyton sacked in 2 seconds.
10:34 left in regulation. Peyton in the shotgun on 3rd & 9. Broncos have 7 men on the line. Norwood tries to chip, but bounces right off RDE. Houston comes right up the middle as Mathis ole’s his man. Manning crushed. Tries to run, but no chance.

Peyton Pass to DT For First Down in 4th (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533090&tab=videos)

Peyton in shotgun with 1:54 to play in the 4th. Peyton throws to D.T. with defenders right in his face in 2 seconds.

Peyton Pass To DT For 1st Down With 1:24 Left In 4th (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533093&tab=videos)

DT catches key pass for a fd on 3rd & 8 with 1:24 left in the 4th. Manning throws in 2 seconds with defender right at his feet. Key: he is able to step into his throw.

Manning's Final TD Pass to Sanders With 36 Seconds Left in 4th (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015091700/2015/REG2/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap300000 0533095&tab=videos)

Elapsed time 3 seconds.
Easily the best pass blocking of the night. OL keeps Chiefs off Manning as he throws final TD pass to Sanders with 36 seconds left in the 4th.

Joel
09-20-2015, 05:24 PM
You know we're in trouble when a clean pocket for a mere 3 seconds is "easily the best pass blocking of the night." That's the bare minimum a decent pro line should average on EVERY play, not just ONE.

I realize it's a new complex system for everyone but Harris and Daniels (it's "just" complex for them,) Vasquez was the only linemen on last years 53, Sambrailo was only in college and defenses truly are only as strong as their weakest link (which defenses gleefully exploit en masse.) But ZBS complexity is mostly irrelevant to pass protection: In a decade of All Pro play, Mathis has seen plenty of the stunts badly beating him and killing Manning, and they're hardly novel for Vasquez either. Harris has been around the block, and (IIRC) we cut him because he couldn't stay healthy, not for playing like he has this year.

I also realize pass blocking's more demanding than run blocking because offensive linemen don't get to call the tune, hence most prefer run blocking. But in THIS scenario, where our run blocking is confusing to the unfamiliar but shunting aside 30 teams of pass rushers is pretty much the same everywhere, the pass blocking should be much better at this point, especially with Mannings read and release times. That it's the worst I recall in Denver (which admittedly only goes back to the mid-nineties) is worrisome. Hopefully it's mostly due to facing two great front sevens.

Again, it can't get worse, but it better get much better very soon, if only because the alternative could preempt Elway and Mannings decision on when to start the Osweiler Era.

Cugel
09-20-2015, 07:12 PM
Again, it can't get worse, but it better get much better very soon, if only because the alternative could preempt Elway and Mannings decision on when to start the Osweiler Era.

If you mean that Peyton won't last till mid-season getting hit on every pass play, I'm afraid you're right.

Fans who want to see Brock, I'm sorry, but Brock Osweiler behind THIS offensive line would be a nightmare scenario. You just know they would try and put him under center, and the OL just can't block, and Brock doesn't have the experience to do what Peyton did on the TD pass to Virgil Greene. In less than 1 second, Manning read the blitz, knew that his hot-read which was a pass over the middle to DT was covered, and threw off his back foot while back-pedalling to the back of the end-zone. That was almost the only positive play of the night with Peyton under center and it was nearly a disaster.

It certainly wasn't a pretty pass. It barely got there, and didn't have much on it. But, there's just no way Brock makes that play. He hesitates and gets horribly sacked and the KC fans go wild. He'd be lucky if he managed to hold onto the ball.

They literally can't go to Brock with this OL, the way they're playing. He just doesn't have the experience and knowledge to do what Peyton is doing in playing out of the shotgun to try and compensate for the fact that the OL just can't pass-block a sunbeam!

It's true that he has a lot more mobility than Peyton. But, teams would blitz him on every play and he'd have to read everything. And do it in less than 1 second. Peyton can do that because he has 16 years experience, and nothing, but nothing is new to him.

I hope whenever Brock gets his chance to play, the OL is playing lights out, because he's going to need their help. He doesn't release the ball nearly as fast as Peyton. He can run yes, but Justin Houston runs so much faster that he might as well be running in tar for all the difference it will make.

You saw this when Russell Wilson tried to run away from Von Miller during the pre-season. Russell Wilson is one of the top running QBs in the NFL, but it was like watching a Jeep Cherokee trying to out race a Suzuki Hyabusa motorcycle.

And Joel, you're right in pointing out that some of the worst offenders have been the veterans on the OL. Vasquez got owned. Ryan Harris got beat. And Evan Mathis ole'd Justin Houston like he was a matador and Houston was the bull!

Of course, the rookies didn't shine with glory either. Paradis got steam-rolled and Sambrailo got schooled.

Frankly, I don't think they could do any worse if they put in Max Garcia at G. And if Mathis has another bad game I think that might happen.

About the best I can say is that the best blocking of the night happened in the two-minute drill on the last drive. That could be that KC was trying to run out the clock though. They certainly weren't bringing the house like they had been earlier. They were rushing 4 and dropping 7 in coverage. Like it has so many times, the prevent defense prevented them from winning.

Joel
09-20-2015, 07:41 PM
If you mean that Peyton won't last till mid-season getting hit on every pass play, I'm afraid you're right.

That's just what I meant; I'm firmly in the "wait and see" camp on Brock (i.e. not firmly in any camp, though I expect him to be rusty as Hell after four years on the bench, while Manning spent the first three demanding every second of first team practice time.) The game plan (I presume) is riding Manning till he drops or retires a champion, then going to the Merry Old Land of Os until/unless we find someone better.

Yet that plan's only viable as long as Elway and Manning get offseasons to decide what the latter has left; the way this line's playing, the decision could be out of their hands before Halloween. After several straight years of investing multiple top picks, Dallas' line is lightyears better than ours: Romos career probably ended tonight anyway. Stuff happens to everyone, but worse stuff happens more often when lines let multiple defenders through routinely rather than one or two occasionally.

I give Manning full marks; when he got here, I said he had two or MAYBE three years before he'd retire or we'd all WISH he had, and he's proving me wrong: Thanks (and sorry,) Peyton. But one thing I've said as long remains true: He can't do it alone, and unless we dramatically improve our linemen to give him run support and protection our immobile geriatric bionic QB can't go anywhere but his couch, and soon.


Fans who want to see Brock, I'm sorry, but Brock Osweiler behind THIS offensive line would be a nightmare scenario....

It's true that he has a lot more mobility than Peyton. But, teams would blitz him on every play and he'd have to read everything. And do it in less than 1 second. Peyton can do that because he has 16 years experience, and nothing, but nothing is new to him.

No argument there either; again, I did only mean he might have to start from necessity, not that it would be pretty (it would almost certainly be anything but.) Hate to go there again, but if just sticking a runner with a scattershot cannon behind a Swiss cheese line could win championships we wouldn't have needed Manning. I'm just hoping Schaub finally taught Kubes that even the best QB coach may be able to make a an awful QB look decent for a few seasons before everyone has film of the gimmicks, but can never make a substandard one a champ.


And Joel, you're right in pointing out that some of the worst offenders have been the veterans on the OL. Vasquez got owned. Ryan Harris got beat. And Evan Mathis ole'd Justin Houston like he was a matador and Houston was the bull!

Of course, the rookies didn't shine with glory either. Paradis got steam-rolled and Sambrailo got schooled.

Frankly, I don't think they could do any worse if they put in Max Garcia at G. And if Mathis has another bad game I think that might happen.

Silver lining: We KNOW Mathis and Vasquez are WAY better than that, and must almost inevitably improve (hopefully sooner than later) so maybe there's proportional hope for Harris and the younger guys. Sambrailo and Paradis have only played two NFL games EVER; we must expect them to get schooled by All Pros and potential HoFers in top defenses, especially when forced to go from the linemen equivalent of tying their shoes to ordnance disposal with just a few months training. The question there is their ceiling (we know Harris' is passable but unspectacular, provided he stays healthy.)


About the best I can say is that the best blocking of the night happened in the two-minute drill on the last drive. That could be that KC was trying to run out the clock though. They certainly weren't bringing the house like they had been earlier. They were rushing 4 and dropping 7 in coverage. Like it has so many times, the prevent defense prevented them from winning.

Weeell, I still think there's a time and place for Prevent, but it's not when leading by just a single score with several minutes left. The problem's not Prevent itself, but coaches going to it too early and/or giving opponents big gains/the sidelines (the two things Prevent is DESIGNED to "prevent.") If a team up 17 halfway through the 4th gives up an 80 yd scoring drive 10 yds at a time over 6:00, that's championship football: Even with a TD AND onside kick, the bad guys must still needs two scores (one a TD) in about a minute, with no time outs. And if the good guys recover: Game over.

On the other hand, one can argue a three score lead halfway through the 4th is hard to screw up by ANY means. But THIS one grew up an Oilers fan, so.... :(

olathebroncofan
09-20-2015, 08:01 PM
You know we're in trouble when a clean pocket for a mere 3 seconds is "easily the best pass blocking of the night." That's the bare minimum a decent pro line should average on EVERY play, not just ONE.

I realize it's a new complex system for everyone but Harris and Daniels (it's "just" complex for them,) Vasquez was the only linemen on last years 53, Sambrailo was only in college and defenses truly are only as strong as their weakest link (which defenses gleefully exploit en masse.) But ZBS complexity is mostly irrelevant to pass protection: In a decade of All Pro play, Mathis has seen plenty of the stunts badly beating him and killing Manning, and they're hardly novel for Vasquez either. Harris has been around the block, and (IIRC) we cut him because he couldn't stay healthy, not for playing like he has this year.

I also realize pass blocking's more demanding than run blocking because offensive linemen don't get to call the tune, hence most prefer run blocking. But in THIS scenario, where our run blocking is confusing to the unfamiliar but shunting aside 30 teams of pass rushers is pretty much the same everywhere, the pass blocking should be much better at this point, especially with Mannings read and release times. That it's the worst I recall in Denver (which admittedly only goes back to the mid-nineties) is worrisome. Hopefully it's mostly due to facing two great front sevens.

Again, it can't get worse, but it better get much better very soon, if only because the alternative could preempt Elway and Mannings decision on when to start the Osweiler Era.

Oh Snap...Joel is back!!!

brb. Need to cut some wood for the fire, and grab some hot cocoa before reading his post.

J/K...welcome back.

Timmy!
09-20-2015, 08:02 PM
The Oline sucks right now. Manning is going to get killed if they don't figure it out. A running game wouldn't hurt either.

(Insert 10-12 paragraphs of blah blah blah blah blah blah here)

Joel
09-20-2015, 08:12 PM
The Oline sucks right now. Manning is going to get killed if they don't figure it out. A running game wouldn't hurt either.

(Insert 10-12 paragraphs of blah blah blah blah blah blah here)

Especially on the line. We can't blame awful pass blocking on the ZBS' complexity nor our linemens unfamiliarity with it, because that's a non-issue for pass protection. THAT shouldn't be so putrid, and two All Pro guards shouldn't be worse than a rookie blindside protector and a PS center. Neither KC nor Baltimore showed them anything both haven't seen countless times. But both those teams have great front sevens, so maybe that and the fact a group that must function as a unit only has one returning starter are the explanation, and it will get much better soon.

One paragraph in three sentences and three lines: Good enough?

Slick
09-20-2015, 08:54 PM
The Oline sucks right now. Manning is going to get killed if they don't figure it out. A running game wouldn't hurt either.

(Insert 10-12 paragraphs of blah blah blah blah blah blah here)

How is the line supposed to get better or put a running game together when teams just stack the box with no fear of anyone getting behind them?

BroncoWave
09-20-2015, 09:09 PM
Oh god, discourse between Joel and Cugel? This thread might set a word count record.

Joel
09-20-2015, 09:50 PM
How is the line supposed to get better or put a running game together when teams just stack the box with no fear of anyone getting behind them?
Until/unless it can block >1-2 seconds we can't do run, pass nor even PUNT. Last year I heaved a sigh of relief when Colquitt got off a punt a beat before 4 guys reached him, then threw up my hands in defeat when NE ran it back for a TD despite having just half a dozen guys between their return man and our WHOLE TEAM (minus Colquitt.)

It may be all the rage now, but Manning can't just heave a 40 yarder with 5 second hang time, hoping the right guy runs under it (if only because the FS has a 10-15 yd head start on DT and Sanders.) Brady tried that the first play of the second SB against NY: All it got him was a safety for intentional grounding when the ball came down at midfield with no one in sight.

Also, we talk about "arm strength," but that doesn't make 60 yd bombs any more than it makes 100 mph fastballs or 400 yd drives. Ask Peyton Manning, Nolan Ryan or Tiger Woods to do their jobs flatfooted and they'll look like I would with a wind up: Arm strength's not negligible, but the bulk of power comes from driving the leg and torquing the body, not swinging the shoulder. Arms and hands are more about control than distance, so if Peyton Manning (who NEVER had a "rocket," whatever his phone ads claim) must throw falling backwards beneath a ripped 260 lb. LB, that ball's going NOWHERE.

Just like none of our RBs are going anywhere getting hit by 2-3 tacklers at the handoff; McGahee didn't, Moreno didn't, Ball didn't and neither have/will Anderson, Hillman or Thompson. We managed to lead the league in rushing one year with McGahee (et al....) but he also led the league in yards AFTER CONTACT that year; he and Moreno also spent a lot of time watching games in street clothes because they were too hurt to play (there's a reason why, needing just ONE more rushing first down to host the 2012 AFCCG, we had Hillman in instead.)

All great offenses start with the line because THE LINE'S THE MOST IMPORTANT. The QB's the most important player, but just one guy; the line's COLLECTIVELY more vital because great running can offset bad passing or vice versa, but NOTHING works without blocking. And since the line stands or falls (or QB and RBs do) together, all five are only as collectively good as the worst one. Denver coaches who got that were why I turned to the team when my own left town and my dads (who USED to get it) fell apart, so I'm deeply grateful we once again (i.e. finally) have coaches who get it.

It was a nigh total teardown though: They had Clady, Vasquez and JACK, then just Vasquez. Rome wasn't built in a day, and our line won't be either; that's why I wanted to hire the Texans former staff immediately (despite knowing no SB team dumps all its coaches for those the LAST PLACE team just dumped.) I thought McNair screwed up badly, but his loss could be our gain, and still do.

I just don't know if it'll happen in time to do Manning any good, nor how long it'll take to find a solid successor: No first year coach has ever won a SB (REALLY wish we'd hired Kubes and Co. last year.)

Joel
09-20-2015, 09:51 PM
Oh god, discourse between Joel and Cugel? This thread might set a word count record.
Sad thing is I'm fairly sure we largely agree, even about the reasons why. Nuts and bolts football is just too fascinating to NOT analyze. ;)

Cugel
09-21-2015, 02:18 AM
I write long posts because it's so frustrating to watch what is probably the best defense in the NFL and realize they could EASILY win the SB if the offense could play at the same level as the beginning of last year, but they're not because of the OL. Thus, venting is the only alternative to throwing things at my TV.

Well, the OL is seriously bad, as in beyond horrible. The only thing I can do is hope it gets better. I can't believe Evan Mathis went from pro-bowl to completely useless in 1 off-season. But, him letting defenders run unabated to the QB has got to stop now. He has no more time to get into football shape or get his head into the game or whatever he needs to do to be effective.

This has to change starting next week in Detroit, because they have a good pass rush too. They lost Suh, which was a big blow to their defense, but they got Haloti Ngata to play nose-tackle, so they are still stout up the middle. This will be another huge test. The Lions are nearly as bad at running the ball as the Broncos so both teams should struggle to move the ball.

MOtorboat
09-21-2015, 02:33 AM
How is the line supposed to get better or put a running game together when teams just stack the box with no fear of anyone getting behind them?

Supposedly, Denver's run first scheme was going to take care of that problem. Don't pin it on the passing game now that that has failed.

Cugel
09-21-2015, 02:37 AM
Supposedly, Denver's run first scheme was going to take care of that problem. Don't pin it on the passing game now that that has failed.

A run-first scheme requires an OL that can run block. This OL is just not doing that. And they can't throw deep to loosen up the defense because Peyton can't hold onto the ball for more than 2 seconds because defenders are right in his face. The only solution is better blocking from the OL.

Whether they can get better is an open question. Other than Mathis, who's playing really badly so far, only Vasquez on this OL would be a starter on any other team in the the NFL.