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View Full Version : Relax- The Offense Will be Fine



Ziggy
09-14-2015, 02:37 AM
It's going to take 6-8 games for this offense to gel. The offensive line didn't have 4 of the current 5 starters on the roster last season. They didn't have Mathis on the roster last month. 2 of the starters were playing in their first NFL game. The ZBS requires every Olineman to be on the same page. The Ravens have a very very good D. This offense may not put up 30 points/game, but they will be efficient. Surprisingly enough, Elway has built this team on defense. The offense just needs to be complimentary, and they will.

The last drive of the game for Denver gave us a glimpse of what's to come. That 17 play, 11 minute drive didn't end with a TD but it did give the defense a rest and helped to keep the Ravens offense on the sideline. Instead of making the defense get 2 or 3 more stops, they only had to get one. When this offense gets in sync, the defense is going to be even scarier.

Yes, Manning is now a game manager. Once he gets his protection back, he'll be just fine. The running game will get going. You saw how the Ravens D line wore down at the end of the game. We'll see more of that as the year goes on.

What you saw today is not the same offense that the Broncos will have in 6 or 7 weeks. Barring injuries this offense is going to grow, develop, and mature. It will get better.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 02:45 AM
Id still like to see us kick the tires on some more OL guys or a RB.

Protection protection protection is what Manning needs in this style offense.

CrazyHorse
09-14-2015, 03:16 AM
Id still like to see us kick the tires on some more OL guys or a RB.

Protection protection protection is what Manning needs in this style offense.

Jake Long is still a free agent. He's worth a look in my book. Any word on DT's injury. Missing him would really hurt. Same for Jackson. Good news is the defense will get even better when we get Ward and Wolfe back. I still have this team winning around 10 or 11 games barring catastrophic injury which should be good enough for play off spot even if we don't win the division. The style we're going for lends itself for success in January though.

Buff
09-14-2015, 10:28 AM
Teams are going to continue to jam our WRs and dare us to beat them deep. I'm not sure how that is going to get better. How many dozens of deep balls have we seen Manning overthrow after releasing 1-2 seconds early under pressure?

I think our offense will potentially be good enough to win the AFC West again this year. And maybe good enough to win one playoff game. I just think too many stars have to align for us to beat good defenses - we can't impose our will on defenses when they are able to key in on short passes and the running game.

chazoe60
09-14-2015, 10:50 AM
I hope you're right, but the offense has been bad for about 9 (football) weeks in a row going back to last season and our starters in the preseason. I'm optimistic but it's definitely a guarded optimism. Manning is not throwing the ball well and his immobility makes the flaws in our OL glaring. In the past Manning could mask a struggling OL with a quick real ease and an even quicker mind, but he's struggled at that in the most recent games we've seen him in.

I'm not calling for Os, it's early for that but if by week 8 our Offense still looks like shit then it might need to be a consideration.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:00 PM
Id still like to see us kick the tires on some more OL guys or a RB.

Protection protection protection is what Manning needs in this style offense.

Whose available that would be worth while and don't tell me Jake Long? Kick the tires on Long and he's probably blow out a knee.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 07:21 PM
Id still like to see us kick the tires on some more OL guys or a RB.

Protection protection protection is what Manning needs in this style offense.

Whose available that would be worth while and don't tell me Jake Long? Kick the tires on Long and he's probably blow out a knee.

I dont really know. But Elway has been shopping some of our ILBs. A trade might be the best option.

And yes, Jake Long is probably worth a look. Wouldn't hurt.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:23 PM
I dont really know. But Elway has been shopping some of our ILBs. A trade might be the best option.

And yes, Jake Long is probably worth a look. Wouldn't hurt.

Den they did look and then let him go on his way.

I hadn't heard that Elway was shopping some of our inside linebackers.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 07:24 PM
Id still like to see us kick the tires on some more OL guys or a RB.

Protection protection protection is what Manning needs in this style offense.

Jake Long is still a free agent. He's worth a look in my book. Any word on DT's injury. Missing him would really hurt. Same for Jackson. Good news is the defense will get even better when we get Ward and Wolfe back. I still have this team winning around 10 or 11 games barring catastrophic injury which should be good enough for play off spot even if we don't win the division. The style we're going for lends itself for success in January though.


I agree about us winning 10-11 games this year. Might not win the division with this offense but most likely a wild card. If we figure out the problems come January then I could see us going deep into the playoffs even. But we better protect Manning otherwise everything will go to hell.

tripp
09-14-2015, 07:32 PM
I feel alot better about our Offence after watching Philly play tonight.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:37 PM
I feel alot better about our Offence after watching Philly play tonight.

That bad?

tripp
09-14-2015, 07:38 PM
That bad?

That bad.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 07:40 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. And if it doesn't happen, we'll have the privelage of watching arguably the worst offense n the history of the Denver Bronco organization.

tripp
09-14-2015, 07:41 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. And if it doesn't happen, we'll have the privelage of watching arguably the worst offense n the history of the Denver Bronco organization.

Worse than Tebow under center?

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 07:41 PM
Worse than Tebow under center?

Yes. Tebow at least made it into the redzone twice during the game.

Ziggy
09-14-2015, 08:13 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. And if it doesn't happen, we'll have the privelage of watching arguably the worst offense n the history of the Denver Bronco organization.

You're far too young to have seen the worst offense in the history of the Denver Broncos organization. This isn't even close. Keep trolling though brother, it suits you.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 08:18 PM
You're far too young to have seen the worst offense in the history of the Denver Broncos organization. This isn't even close. Keep trolling though brother, it suits you.

You mean there were offenses here in Denver that scored more TD's for the other team than they did their own and got into the redzone less than 1 time a game?

I'm sorry but I don't believe that.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2015, 08:40 PM
Eddie Mac was on with Vic tonight. Here are the segments from the show

http://denver.cbslocal.com/video/category/sports/

SR
09-14-2015, 08:48 PM
You mean there were offenses here in Denver that scored more TD's for the other team than they did their own and got into the redzone less than 1 time a game? I'm sorry but I don't believe that.

Yeah. Actually.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-14-2015, 11:16 PM
You mean there were offenses here in Denver that scored more TD's for the other team than they did their own and got into the redzone less than 1 time a game? I'm sorry but I don't believe that.

Yeah. Actually.

Silky must've slept through the McDaniels era. Our offense was putrid back then.

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 11:30 PM
Why should we ever draft a OL guy then if all you guys want to do is just draft a worn out has been? Not give young guys any time?

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 11:43 PM
Just day on nfl.com that falcons may be signing Jake long.

Slick
09-14-2015, 11:44 PM
Why should we ever draft a OL guy then if all you guys want to do is just draft a worn out has been? Not give young guys any time?

I don't follow here Night. Dumb it down for me?

Ziggy
09-14-2015, 11:47 PM
Why should we ever draft a OL guy then if all you guys want to do is just draft a worn out has been? Not give young guys any time?


I don't follow here Night. Dumb it down for me?

I think he's talking aboutsigning Jake Long.

Dzone
09-14-2015, 11:53 PM
We should have drafted more O linemen early. Instead we drafted busts like ball and latimer. Now we are paying the price with manning getting his ass handed to him

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 11:57 PM
Silky must've slept through the McDaniels era. Our offense was putrid back then.

For as horseshit as it was, it was sadly better than the garbage we put on the field yesterday.

Slick
09-14-2015, 11:58 PM
I think he's talking aboutsigning Jake Long.

Oh okay. Thanks. I wouldn't mess with Long either.

Slick
09-15-2015, 12:01 AM
We should have drafted more O linemen early. Instead we drafted busts like ball and latimer. Now we are paying the price with manning getting his ass handed to him

Pretty disappointing. Did Lattimer do anything in pre-season? Maybe he's a dummy. He seemed to have the physical tools to at least be a solid #2.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 12:07 AM
Mcdaniels sucked but he saved us from that pos jay cutler, who draft guru shannahan thought was the savior...

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2015, 12:11 AM
Pretty disappointing. Did Lattimer do anything in pre-season? Maybe he's a dummy. He seemed to have the physical tools to at least be a solid #2.

Latimer has fallen behind Caldwell and Norwood and is currently battling some guy named Bennie Fowler for the 5th WR spot.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 12:13 AM
Pretty disappointing. Did Lattimer do anything in pre-season? Maybe he's a dummy. He seemed to have the physical tools to at least be a solid #2.
No Latimer has slid backward . He is going down , not up. His contribution has been zilch from day one.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 12:14 AM
Latimer has fallen behind Caldwell and Norwood and is currently battling some guy named Bennie Fowler for the 5th WR spot.
Whoaa
Latimer: Bonafide BUST

Valar Morghulis
09-15-2015, 12:25 AM
Yes. Tebow at least made it into the redzone twice during the game.

I cite the chiefs at airhead stadium

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-15-2015, 12:40 AM
We have a sighting of the correct spelling of cite.

dogfish
09-15-2015, 03:17 AM
Pretty disappointing. Did Lattimer do anything in pre-season? Maybe he's a dummy. He seemed to have the physical tools to at least be a solid #2.


Latimer has fallen behind Caldwell and Norwood and is currently battling some guy named Bennie Fowler for the 5th WR spot.

looks like he's either a dummy, or lazy. . .

bennie fowler is a badass, though-- that kid's gonna be a contributor. . .


:defense:

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 08:53 AM
For as horseshit as it was, it was sadly better than the garbage we put on the field yesterday.

Not by a long shot.

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 08:57 AM
Whoaa
Latimer: Bonafide BUST

This was said also said about Hillman. IIRC some were even suggesting he should be kicked to the curb as recently a month or so ago.

Ravage!!!
09-15-2015, 10:11 AM
This was said also said about Hillman. IIRC some were even suggesting he should be kicked to the curb as recently a month or so ago.

But Hillman has NEVER fallen this far in the depthchart. This isn't the fans saying that Lattimer is a bust, but the people watching him play and practice. It's the coaches that have basically said "this boy can't play."

Buff
09-15-2015, 10:16 AM
Yeah, Hillman was good enough to see the field. Jordan Norwood has been cut by 4 teams since 2009 and is ahead of Latimer on the depth chart - that tells us everything we need to know.

chazoe60
09-15-2015, 11:05 AM
You mean there were offenses here in Denver that scored more TD's for the other team than they did their own and got into the redzone less than 1 time a game?

I'm sorry but I don't believe that.
You're right, that is exactly what this offense is going to do every game. #fart

chazoe60
09-15-2015, 11:06 AM
Until there's evidence that Lattimer is even on this team I'll just consider him a bust. He ain't done shit.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 12:03 PM
Last year at this time, people were getting pissed off at people who were predicting that Montee Ball was a bust. "Not a big enough sample size! Its too early! He is going to be fine!" blah blah blah . lol

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 12:27 PM
But Hillman has NEVER fallen this far in the depthchart. This isn't the fans saying that Lattimer is a bust, but the people watching him play and practice. It's the coaches that have basically said "this boy can't play."

I haven't read anything of the sort.

I Eat Staples
09-15-2015, 12:46 PM
There's absolutely no excuse for Latimer not seeing the field at all in now his 2nd season. The coaches obviously believe he sucks, but if you use a 2nd round pick on a guy, you have to at least give him the chance to PROVE that he sucks. Put him on the field for a couple games, and if he blows, well then you cut your losses and move on. We KNOW guys like Caldwell suck, there's no harm in actually seeing what you have in Latimer.

chazoe60
09-15-2015, 01:06 PM
There's absolutely no excuse for Latimer not seeing the field at all in now his 2nd season. The coaches obviously believe he sucks, but if you use a 2nd round pick on a guy, you have to at least give him the chance to PROVE that he sucks. Put him on the field for a couple games, and if he blows, well then you cut your losses and move on. We KNOW guys like Caldwell suck, there's no harm in actually seeing what you have in Latimer.
Completely disagree. You put the guys on the field who give you the best chance to win, period. If Latimer hasn't earned his chance to play then he doesn't get to play. Other guys have worked harder and deserve to play more regardless of draft position.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 01:26 PM
Thats 2 second round picks that have not contributed one iota. Frustrating. Especially in light of the thin situation with the line.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 01:27 PM
Manning a back injury? Is this true? update-Yes, he is on the injury report.

Buff
09-15-2015, 01:30 PM
There's absolutely no excuse for Latimer not seeing the field at all in now his 2nd season. The coaches obviously believe he sucks, but if you use a 2nd round pick on a guy, you have to at least give him the chance to PROVE that he sucks. Put him on the field for a couple games, and if he blows, well then you cut your losses and move on. We KNOW guys like Caldwell suck, there's no harm in actually seeing what you have in Latimer.

That's a great way for a coach and front office to totally lose the locker room. If a guy can't play, putting him on the field ahead of guys who have outperformed him will cause dissension. Plus - it's a bad strategy for winning games.

If anything, the front office ought to be commended for not putting their own bias ahead of actual performance... Cause you know Elway would prefer his draft pick outperform a journeyman.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 01:35 PM
If we were playing on a perfectly level playing field, with all things being equal, Osweiller would have beaten out Peyton Manning already, based on how he has played vs mannings performance in the last several games

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2015, 02:43 PM
Not by a long shot.

That's really a great argument you got going for yourself.

wayninja
09-15-2015, 03:14 PM
If we were playing on a perfectly level playing field, with all things being equal, Osweiller would have beaten out Peyton Manning already, based on how he has played vs mannings performance in the last several games

Remember the good ol' days when people were complaining about having a player that you had to totally change your offense for?

:elefant:

Cugel
09-15-2015, 04:24 PM
We should have drafted more O linemen early. Instead we drafted busts like ball and latimer. Now we are paying the price with manning getting his ass handed to him

If you are saying that the Broncos should have used their 2nd round picks from 2 and three years ago to draft OL that appears to be correct now.

But, this is a very young and talented OL. It's certain they will get better at protection. The Ravens run a lot of delayed and disguised blitzes and these were deliberately aimed at fooling an inexperienced OL.

Plus, Evan Mathis was not at all in football shape after sitting out the preseason and had never started a game with any of these guys.

Frankly, I thought it would be worse than it was. I saw some signs that Sambrailo can be good at LT and Paradis held his own.

What hurt the Broncos was communication issues, particularly on delayed blitzes through the A-gap. They had breakdowns in communication on the left side between Sambrailo and Mathis and between Mathis and Paradis.

But, that is stuff that can easily be fixed with coaching. They are going over tape of these things with their OL position coach this week for sure.

What would be more problematic is if we saw evidence that the OL was being physically man-handled and crushed, because no coaching can fix that.

But, I didn't see much sign of that at all. What I saw was a very young, inexperienced, but physically talented OL that needs some playing time to come together.

My only worry is that Peyton gets hurt before they make all the necessary adjustments.

About the worst you can say about Elway's personnel management of the OL is that he has refused to go out and sign big name FA OL, preferring to go with inexperienced rookies.

I think the major complaint he had with Fox & Adam Gase last year was that they didn't use the guys he'd drafted like Paradis or Sylvester Williams or Micheal Schofield. If he had those players would have had more experience this season.

Well Fox seems to have been right about Schofield, but it looks like they could have put Paradis into the lineup some last year and Sylvester Williams looks like a real stud at NT.

I don't think that you can expect Peyton to do anything if he's getting sacked 3 times a half and hit on almost every pass play. That protection must get a lot better and I think it will.

But, perhaps not in time for Thursday's game. If anything, KC can rush the passer even better than the Ravens, since they Tamba Hali and Justin Houston.

Cugel
09-15-2015, 04:35 PM
If we were playing on a perfectly level playing field, with all things being equal, Osweiller would have beaten out Peyton Manning already, based on how he has played vs mannings performance in the last several games

It still amazes me that anybody is crazy enough to really believe such rot. :coffee:

Are you a Tebowite who just hates Manning?

Or do you just like to panic?

Here's just one out of a thousand facts that show your opinion isn't just wrong; it's flat bat-guano insane: Since Osweiler has played zero meaningful snaps in the regular season, all such opinions are based on wild projections from meaningless exhibition games - and ignore the most important point of all: it's easy to look good in the preseason because defenses are NOT game-planning to stop a QB!

No defensive coordinator has ever sat down and tried to figure out "what do we need to do to stop Brock Osweiler." Yet you saw the Ravens come with every different kind of delayed and disguised blitz on Sunday - precisely because they knew that Peyton is immobile, and the offensive line is young and inexperienced and lack playing time together. Such disguised blitzes are perfectly designed to take advantage of the Broncos chief weaknesses. And they were successful.

When Osweiler finally starts in a regular season game, and especially after 4 weeks of him starting, when teams start to get some significant amount of game film on his tendencies, that's when we will really learn whether Osweiler can play at all in this league.

At all. As in, based on what we know right now, he could be a total and complete bust who flames out and only plays one season. I don't think that will happen.

But, in point of fact, we just don't know because he is untested. Peyton has been through the fire of 16 NFL seasons. He'll make adjustments and be fine. He's done that his entire career. So, to state as a fact, based on pure nothing, that Brock Osweiler would beat Peyton Manning out for the starting job is just flat crazy talk.

Of course, I don't expect such logic will make any impression on you because you're completely impervious to reason. But, there it is.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 05:08 PM
It still amazes me that anybody is crazy enough to really believe such rot. :coffee:

Are you a Tebowite who just hates Manning?


.
:pound:

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 05:44 PM
That's really a great argument you got going for yourself.

Silk don't be an ass.

You didn't say anything substantial your previous post so take a walk.

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 05:55 PM
Talking with a few buddies. They think it will take a career ending injury to stop him playing. And they think it could happen too. Too competitive, can't bench a player of his pedigree, and stubborn. His body is not the same and head not last through the growing pains of OL through the season.

BroncoWave
09-15-2015, 06:01 PM
Yeah, Hillman was good enough to see the field. Jordan Norwood has been cut by 4 teams since 2009 and is ahead of Latimer on the depth chart - that tells us everything we need to know.

Yeah, I'm the last person to call someone a bust as most of you know, but it's not looking good for Latimer.

BroncoWave
09-15-2015, 06:03 PM
Last year at this time, people were getting pissed off at people who were predicting that Montee Ball was a bust. "Not a big enough sample size! Its too early! He is going to be fine!" blah blah blah . lol

Because at that point the coaches trusted him enough to put him on the field, so it was a fair assumption to think that maybe he had a chance to be decent. Totally different situation with Latimer right now.

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 06:04 PM
Yeah, I'm the last person to call someone a bust as most of you know, but it's not looking good for Latimer.

Norwood plays STs

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 06:04 PM
Because at that point the coaches trusted him enough to put him on the field, so it was a fair assumption to think that maybe he had a chance to be decent. Totally different situation with Latimer right now.

He was turning g heads early preseason.

BroncoWave
09-15-2015, 06:07 PM
I bet John Fox is feeling pretty vindicated right now with Latimer. Guess it wasn't Fox's stubbornness keeping him off the field last year.

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 06:12 PM
I just looked at depth and he is behind Sanders.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2015, 06:36 PM
Silk don't be an ass.

You didn't say anything substantial your previous post so take a walk.

Please - that was arguably the worst performance I have ever seen out of the Denver Bronco offense, any if it continues, it will be arguably the worst in the history of the organization. Tim Tebow someone said? At least he could hand the ball off down the field to what was a top rushing unit in the NFL. The only top thing this offense looks like it's headed is interceptions for TD's and lack of redzone opportunities.

1 redzone opportunity the entire game. 1. And according to you it isn't even close to being the worst, for no reason? Like I said, hell of an argument you got going for yourself, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

chazoe60
09-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Please - that was arguably the worst performance I have ever seen out of the Denver Bronco offense, any if it continues, it will be arguably the worst in the history of the organization. Tim Tebow someone said? At least he could hand the ball off down the field to what was a top rushing unit in the NFL. The only top thing this offense looks like it's headed is interceptions for TD's and lack of redzone opportunities.

1 redzone opportunity the entire game. 1. And according to you it isn't even close to being the worst, for no reason? Like I said, hell of an argument you got going for yourself, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

We're gonna suck all season so just do yourself a favor and don't watch and definitely don't post about it.

wayninja
09-15-2015, 07:00 PM
Please - that was arguably the worst performance I have ever seen out of the Denver Bronco offense, any if it continues, it will be arguably the worst in the history of the organization. Tim Tebow someone said? At least he could hand the ball off down the field to what was a top rushing unit in the NFL. The only top thing this offense looks like it's headed is interceptions for TD's and lack of redzone opportunities.

1 redzone opportunity the entire game. 1. And according to you it isn't even close to being the worst, for no reason? Like I said, hell of an argument you got going for yourself, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

And yet... the face remains uncovered...

wayninja
09-15-2015, 07:01 PM
I bet John Fox is feeling pretty vindicated right now with Latimer. Guess it wasn't Fox's stubbornness keeping him off the field last year.

Yep, I'm sure he's feelin' real good on his Jay cutler led team with a 0-1 start coming off a loss to a division rival. Pretty vindicated. Pretty, pretty, vindicated.

tripp
09-15-2015, 07:24 PM
Yep, I'm sure he's feelin' real good on his Jay cutler led team with a 0-1 start coming off a loss to a division rival. Pretty vindicated. Pretty, pretty, vindicated.

There's nothing worse than John Fox constantly clapping, whether we scored a TD, or we turned the ball over, etc.

CrazyHorse
09-15-2015, 07:40 PM
There's nothing worse than John Fox constantly clapping, whether we scored a TD, or we turned the ball over, etc.

LOL. He was such a high energy coach with his country club atmosphere. He's not a bad coach for stability which is what a shitty team like the Bears needs. He doesn't have that killer instinct though. I can't say Kubiak does either though.

tripp
09-15-2015, 07:43 PM
LOL. He was such a high energy coach with his country club atmosphere. He's not a bad coach for stability which is what a shitty team like the Bears needs. He doesn't have that killer instinct though. I can't say Kubiak does either though.

Lol 100% agree. He did what we needed him to do after McD left us in the gutter, just pretty happy the mediocrity he possesses is gone.

Timmy!
09-15-2015, 08:13 PM
Somebody has a short memory. I'll take January 1st, 2012 for $500 Alex.....and the answer is, against a lesser defense the Broncos put up 50 yards passing and 3 points.....at home....while trying to clinch the division.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 09:01 PM
There's nothing worse than John Fox constantly clapping, whether we scored a TD, or we turned the ball over, etc.
LOL..Fox was clapping after Cutler threw the game away on 4th down ..He just kept on clapping :tsk:

MOtorboat
09-16-2015, 01:25 AM
Somebody has a short memory. I'll take January 1st, 2012 for $500 Alex.....and the answer is, against a lesser defense the Broncos put up 50 yards passing and 3 points.....at home....while trying to clinch the division.

That's celebrated around here, yo.

CrazyHorse
09-16-2015, 02:45 AM
Somebody has a short memory. I'll take January 1st, 2012 for $500 Alex.....and the answer is, against a lesser defense the Broncos put up 50 yards passing and 3 points.....at home....while trying to clinch the division.

I remember that. Tebow was playing and Orton was on the Chiefs.

Timmy!
09-16-2015, 03:42 AM
I remember that. Tebow was playing and Orton was on the Chiefs.

Indeed.....and yet somehow, against all probability, the same horrible offense put up 25+ the next week to win a playoff game, only to do not a damn thing a week later. The moral of the story is: one week, especially week 1, means nothing. Its a marathon, not a sprint. Stealing wins that could easily be losses are what elite teams do.

TXBRONC
09-16-2015, 08:39 AM
Please - that was arguably the worst performance I have ever seen out of the Denver Bronco offense, any if it continues, it will be arguably the worst in the history of the organization. Tim Tebow someone said? At least he could hand the ball off down the field to what was a top rushing unit in the NFL. The only top thing this offense looks like it's headed is interceptions for TD's and lack of redzone opportunities.

1 redzone opportunity the entire game. 1. And according to you it isn't even close to being the worst, for no reason? Like I said, hell of an argument you got going for yourself, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Yeah I have bad argument when you compare 32 games to 1 game. That makes sense. :coffee:

Ziggy
09-16-2015, 11:56 AM
The 66 Broncos averaged a whopping 14 points/game for an entire season.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-16-2015, 03:27 PM
The 66 Broncos averaged a whopping 14 points/game for an entire season.

The Broncos D in the the late 70's and early 80's carried that team. The offense was not very good. Craig Morton and Steve DeBerg....need I say more?

TXBRONC
09-16-2015, 04:20 PM
The Broncos D in the the late 70's and early 80's carried that team. The offense was not very good. Craig Morton and Steve DeBerg....need I say more?

Hey don't be hating on Morton. He at least quarterbacked the team to their first ever Super Bowl run.

weazel
09-16-2015, 05:05 PM
Osweiler!

Ziggy
09-16-2015, 09:29 PM
Hey don't be hating on Morton. He at least quarterbacked the team to their first ever Super Bowl run.

You must be too young to have watched him play TX. Morton was horrible. The Orange Crush carried that team. Morton almost single handedly lost the super bowl. He completed 8 passes. 4 were to his receivers and 4 to the Dallas Cowboys. Old timers really don't care much for him.

Dzone
09-16-2015, 10:11 PM
Morton was severely knock kneed and slower than even manning...I watched him on video, Im not old enough to remember lol

Cugel
09-16-2015, 10:20 PM
You must be too young to have watched him play TX. Morton was horrible. The Orange Crush carried that team. Morton almost single handedly lost the super bowl. He completed 8 passes. 4 were to his receivers and 4 to the Dallas Cowboys. Old timers really don't care much for him.

Of course, I wasn't very sober during the second half of that game, but I remember thinking that it wasn't really Morton's fault. The Broncos were really overwhelmed by a better team.

But, we can't really look any further back than about 10 years in this league. They've changed the rules so much that the offenses have huge advantages they didn't have back in the day. Can't hit the QB except in the pocket, and then only between the knees and chest or it's a game suspension; can't touch the WR beyond 5 yards downfield, can't hit the defenseless receiver, pass-interference gets called for a dirty look, etc.

In 2000, both the Baltimore Ravens (165) and Tennessee Titans (191) gave up fewer than 200 points or 10 and 12 points a game respectively - for an entire season. The 2002 Bucs gave up 196. The 1985 & 86 Bears gave up 196 and 187 points by comparison. No defense since the 2002 Bucs has broken 200 points.

The 2013 Seahawks team that might well have been the best defense all time? They gave up 234 points. It's just a different league.

dogfish
09-16-2015, 10:29 PM
The 66 Broncos averaged a whopping 14 points/game for an entire season.

hey zig, what was woodstock like?


:heh:

Ziggy
09-16-2015, 10:36 PM
hey zig, what was woodstock like?


:heh:

Your mother and I had a great time there. Come to think of it......... how old did you say you were?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-17-2015, 02:45 AM
I just remember the way Morton stood in the pocket and took sacks his last year. I was too young to remember the SB against the Cowboys.

TXBRONC
09-17-2015, 07:17 AM
You must be too young to have watched him play TX. Morton was horrible. The Orange Crush carried that team. Morton almost single handedly lost the super bowl. He completed 8 passes. 4 were to his receivers and 4 to the Dallas Cowboys. Old timers really don't care much for him.

No, I did indeed watched him play. I remember how bad he was in the Super Bowl but my only point is that he at least quarterbacked the team to the Super Bowl. DeBerg can't say that.

TXBRONC
09-17-2015, 07:21 AM
Of course, I wasn't very sober during the second half of that game, but I remember thinking that it wasn't really Morton's fault. The Broncos were really overwhelmed by a better team.

But, we can't really look any further back than about 10 years in this league. They've changed the rules so much that the offenses have huge advantages they didn't have back in the day. Can't hit the QB except in the pocket, and then only between the knees and chest or it's a game suspension; can't touch the WR beyond 5 yards downfield, can't hit the defenseless receiver, pass-interference gets called for a dirty look, etc.

In 2000, both the Baltimore Ravens (165) and Tennessee Titans (191) gave up fewer than 200 points or 10 and 12 points a game respectively - for an entire season. The 2002 Bucs gave up 196. The 1985 & 86 Bears gave up 196 and 187 points by comparison. No defense since the 2002 Bucs has broken 200 points.

The 2013 Seahawks team that might well have been the best defense all time? They gave up 234 points. It's just a different league.

So were you at Woodstock too?

weazel
09-17-2015, 09:46 AM
The answer is simple. Trade Manning for Rodgers and go into the editor and make the O-Line better.

silkamilkamonico
09-17-2015, 11:47 PM
The answer is super simple

Scrap this play action run garbage you're trying to install and let Peyton be Manning.

I thought Kubiak was going to lose us the game when he took Manning out of shotgun and put him under center after Harris's interception.

wayninja
09-17-2015, 11:54 PM
It's still pretty early in the season. After an exciting 2-0 start, I'm willing to, and I think the team can afford to, give Kubiak a bit more leeway and time. It wasn't working well, but it was working way better than last week. If we keep making incremental improvement, we should be humming along by week 6. And if the reward for that is a balanced offense, it will likely be worth it.

silkamilkamonico
09-18-2015, 12:00 AM
He can implement that zone run thing he wants to do with Brock.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-18-2015, 12:18 AM
It's called adapting your game plan.

The ZBS wasn't working because the last two weeks teams have sold out to stop it and have dared Manning to beat them. It's sounds weird, but it's true.

It is highly pretentious to say we should scrap it. Eventually teams will decide to stop Manning if he throws like he did in the 2nd and 4th quarters. The ZBS will kill defenses if they decide to put 6 men in the box.

Be patient people, good grief.

wayninja
09-18-2015, 12:20 AM
I think our first two games was a bit of an (arguably) unfair challenge to the scheme. Two very good defenses, and next week against a pretty good defense as well.

Then things loosen up a bit...

Simple Jaded
09-18-2015, 12:25 AM
Apparently people didn't notice how much shotgun Denver ran last week.

I Eat Staples
09-18-2015, 12:48 AM
Completely disagree. You put the guys on the field who give you the best chance to win, period. If Latimer hasn't earned his chance to play then he doesn't get to play. Other guys have worked harder and deserve to play more regardless of draft position.


That's a great way for a coach and front office to totally lose the locker room. If a guy can't play, putting him on the field ahead of guys who have outperformed him will cause dissension. Plus - it's a bad strategy for winning games.

If anything, the front office ought to be commended for not putting their own bias ahead of actual performance... Cause you know Elway would prefer his draft pick outperform a journeyman.

I understand that, but this isn't a situation like with Anderson last year where he stepped up and proved he deserved a chance to play. Caldwell isn't good. He doesn't produce for us at ALL in games. You wouldn't lose the locker room for playing a young guy to see what he can do over a guy that has shown over and over that he can do nothing at all.

That said I think most people thought Latimer was a dumb pick anyway. We traded up to pick a guy who had no business going that high anyway.

silkamilkamonico
09-18-2015, 01:03 AM
We're averaging 2.8 ypr.

The funny thing is both our top 2 RB's are in contract years. I think this offseason will be very interesting at RB. Hopefully Elway doesn't draft one in the 2nd round.

CrazyHorse
09-18-2015, 01:07 AM
We're averaging 2.8 ypr.

The funny thing is both our top 2 RB's are in contract years. I think this offseason will be very interesting at RB. Hopefully Elway doesn't draft one in the 2nd round.

Don't worry. We can just sign Ray Rice.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-18-2015, 01:09 AM
Apparently people didn't notice how much shotgun Denver ran last week.

There's a lot people aren't noticing.

MOtorboat
09-18-2015, 01:14 AM
Don't listen to Jaded. There's nothing wrong with the shotgun. And Denver will still be running plenty of shotgun long after Manning is gone.

wayninja
09-18-2015, 01:15 AM
Don't listen to Jaded. There's nothing wrong with the shotgun. And Denver will still be running plenty of shotgun long after Manning is gone.

By then I hope we have a cooler formation, like Semi-automatic, or the Mortar, or the TOW missile.

MOtorboat
09-18-2015, 01:17 AM
By then I hope we have a cooler formation, like Semi-automatic, or the Mortar, or the TOW missile.

The Howitzer. It's a snap and a pitch. Quarterback runs across the formation 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage and has the ball pitched to him by a fullback.

wayninja
09-18-2015, 01:26 AM
The Howitzer. It's a snap and a pitch. Quarterback runs across the formation 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage and has the ball pitched to him by a fullback.

And I think we all know who that Fullback will be.

#Tebowitzer

Timmy!
09-18-2015, 01:27 AM
Without reading any posts in the game day thread or this one tonight, I will say this:

Peyton still has it, or at least enough of it to get it done, if we run Peyton's offense. Now, that's not to say we should abandone what kubes wants to do, but holy shit if the difference is night and day. No matter what, if we don't find a running game, in whatever way, its gonna be tough sledding. Its total obvious what Peyton is more comfortable doing, but its going to be a process, and I knew it wasn't going to be pretty to start. We will eventually find the perfect marriage (as long as the Oline doesn't completely suck ass). That's 2-0 against good teams. Elway talked about "kicking and screaming." This team has the correct no quit attitude. It hasn't been pretty, but those are 2 games championship teams win. Go Broncos.

wayninja
09-18-2015, 01:52 AM
Without reading any posts in the game day thread or this one tonight, I will say this:

Not trying to dismiss your post, but you are missing one of the more entertaining gameday threads...

But on topic, agreed that manning has 'it', if 'it' is more intellectual than athletic. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, it's actually extending his effective longevity.

Timmy!
09-18-2015, 01:57 AM
Not trying to dismiss your post, but you are missing one of the more entertaining gameday threads..

I understand. However, our group of 8 Bronco fans watching the game at the same house every week for the past....well....ever really..... with delicious BBQ kinda keeps me offline. :D

Dzone
09-18-2015, 02:04 AM
From sanders postgame interview, they all want to be going no huddle, hurry up, manning is at his best in it, then why not just go to it early on? What the hell are they waiting for?

wayninja
09-18-2015, 02:06 AM
From sanders postgame interview, they all want to be going no huddle, hurry up, manning is at his best in it, then why not just go to it early on? What the hell are they waiting for?

Because manning has the energy of a 2 year old after a bag of skittles? 30 minutes then crash. Just a guess.

Timmy!
09-18-2015, 02:42 AM
From sanders postgame interview, they all want to be going no huddle, hurry up, manning is at his best in it, then why not just go to it early on? What the hell are they waiting for?

We are in offensive limbo. We want to be a hardnose grind it out team, which is all well and good if you have a badass defense (check), and can run the ball (epic fail). Add that to Peyton not being comfortable, at all, under center and we have the first 5 quarters of the year. Its early, we are 2-0, and have a long week to figure it out (lookin at you Oline). In a perfect world, we end up with some morphing Frankenstein abomination that just wins.

MOtorboat
09-18-2015, 02:55 AM
Throw the ******* football.

Ziggy
09-18-2015, 03:35 AM
Kubiak is smart enough to let Manning play his game until the offensive line gets in synch. He's still going to try to run the ball. He has to. When the Broncos are backed up against the wall though, he let's Peyton be Peyton. In the end, he knows that Peyton can't win a game in the cold in December and January against a great D. This year, the Broncos have the great D. I'm going to enjoy watching the offense evolve over the course of the season while the D continues to carry the load.

Timmy!
09-18-2015, 03:41 AM
Kubiak is smart enough to let Manning play his game until the offensive line gets in synch. He's still going to try to run the ball. He has to. When the Broncos are backed up against the wall though, he let's Peyton be Peyton. In the end, he knows that Peyton can't win a game in the cold in December and January against a great D. This year, the Broncos have the great D. I'm going to enjoy watching the offense evolve over the course of the season while the D continues to carry the load.

We can't run, especially on any qb under center plays, to save our lives.

Ziggy
09-18-2015, 03:44 AM
We can't run, especially on any qb under center plays, to save our lives.

Not yet.

Timmy!
09-18-2015, 03:47 AM
Not yet.

Right.

CrazyHorse
09-18-2015, 04:21 AM
The good news is that if we beat the Lions next week, we have 3 games against the NFL's developmental league teams the Vikings, Raiders, and Browns to get our shit together. I can see a 6-0 start.

Northman
09-18-2015, 06:14 AM
From sanders postgame interview, they all want to be going no huddle, hurry up, manning is at his best in it, then why not just go to it early on? What the hell are they waiting for?

Ball control, not tiring out the defense, and preparing for later in the year when weather will be more of a factor. At some point we are going to be able to have to run the ball.

silkamilkamonico
09-18-2015, 05:30 PM
Kubiak is smart enough to let Manning play his game until the offensive line gets in synch. He's still going to try to run the ball. He has to. When the Broncos are backed up against the wall though, he let's Peyton be Peyton. In the end, he knows that Peyton can't win a game in the cold in December and January against a great D. This year, the Broncos have the great D. I'm going to enjoy watching the offense evolve over the course of the season while the D continues to carry the load.

Manning can't play Kubiak's system. I'm calling it right now. He's a rythm QB, and the only thing that is still 100% him is rythm when it's on. Kubiak's offense takes that completely away. If Kubiak continues to want to do his offense, Denver won't be able to run the ball, and Manning won't be able to pass. Let f'n Manning do his thing. Kubiak almost cost Denver the game when he took Manning out of Shotgun after Chris harris's interception late in the game and Denver goes 3 and out giving the ball back to the Chiefs in which they went down and scored the go ahead TD with 2 min left.

Cugel
09-18-2015, 08:01 PM
We can't run, especially on any qb under center plays, to save our lives.

The reason Peyton looks so horrible when under center is because when he goes into his 5 step drop the DL is rushing TOWARDS him. And the OL is just flat horrible.

Ryan Edwards 104.3 The Fan to Shawn Drotar: "Shawn give me some cursory thoughts on the game with 2 minutes left in the game."

Drotar: "The offensive line is a disaster. That's the primary thought that I have going away. It's an absolute disaster zone right now. It's been problematic for the entire team. Not only is it difficult to get the running game going, Peyton Manning does not have a tremendous amount of time to throw. Regardless of what you think about Manning's arm strength or anything of the sort, not many QBs can do much when they have less than 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. That's been a problem. And they haven't been able to block very well for the run, which means the defense has been out on the field almost the entire game."

Ryan: The OL has not been able to prevent the Kansas City Chiefs defensive line from being in the backfield, so the problem first, you're absolutely right, is the OL not giving Peyton the time, and not giving very much room for the runners. You could pick out individual offensive linemen who have let this team down all night long. And it starts and finishes with their edge guys, with the tackles Ty Sambrailo and Ryan Harris not getting it done tonight."

Shawn: "It's been a disappointing performance for the OL, including Matt Paradis, there's been lots of pressure right up the middle."

Personally, I'd say that Evan Mathis looked worse than either Sambrailo or Harris. But, nobody on that OL covered themselves in glory.

Slick
09-18-2015, 09:11 PM
The o line can't block 6 or 7 guys either. Manning desperately needs to start hitting some deep throws and back those guys the eff off.

Shazam!
09-18-2015, 09:23 PM
OLine was exposed against Seattle since the SB and hasn't been the same (Franklin). Hopefully the young guys get better with time. It's been really, really bad, Peyton masks a lot if the deficiencies.

Simple Jaded
09-18-2015, 09:25 PM
Don't listen to Jaded. There's nothing wrong with the shotgun. And Denver will still be running plenty of shotgun long after Manning is gone.

Not my point, people seem to think they broke out the shotgun when Manning started playing better.

And the shotgun sucks.

Ziggy
09-18-2015, 10:15 PM
Kubiak is making adjustments throughout the game. That's why this team is 2-0. Even with this defense, this team is 0-2 with John Fox as a head coach. It will come together on offense. I'm thinking around mid-season.

Magnificent Seven
09-19-2015, 12:51 AM
They should use last year's playbook. I wish they could have kept TE Julius Thomas.

Valar Morghulis
09-19-2015, 02:00 AM
Not my point, people seem to think they broke out the shotgun when Manning started playing better.

And the shotgun sucks.

i disagree about the shot gun sucking - but totally agree the amount of times he ran it and still looked terrible being over looked

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 10:20 AM
Did we ever start 0-2 with Fox as the HC?

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 10:47 AM
He can implement that zone run thing he wants to do with Brock.

He can also do it with Manning bro.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 10:50 AM
It's called adapting your game plan.

The ZBS wasn't working because the last two weeks teams have sold out to stop it and have dared Manning to beat them. It's sounds weird, but it's true.

It is highly pretentious to say we should scrap it. Eventually teams will decide to stop Manning if he throws like he did in the 2nd and 4th quarters. The ZBS will kill defenses if they decide to put 6 men in the box.

Be patient people, good grief.

It would be foolish not to implement it now.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 10:59 AM
Kubiak is smart enough to let Manning play his game until the offensive line gets in synch. He's still going to try to run the ball. He has to. When the Broncos are backed up against the wall though, he let's Peyton be Peyton. In the end, he knows that Peyton can't win a game in the cold in December and January against a great D. This year, the Broncos have the great D. I'm going to enjoy watching the offense evolve over the course of the season while the D continues to carry the load.

The only way for Denver to get better at running the ball is to keep working at it.

turftoad
09-19-2015, 11:05 AM
Kubiak is making adjustments throughout the game. That's why this team is 2-0. Even with this defense, this team is 0-2 with John Fox as a head coach. It will come together on offense. I'm thinking around mid-season.

I agree. New offense, pretty much new offensive line with a different blocking scheme. It will take some time for these guys to put it together.
Hopefully the defense can keep us in games til this happens.

Shazam!
09-19-2015, 11:16 AM
Did we ever start 0-2 with Fox as the HC?

09 w/Orton.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 11:20 AM
09 w/Orton.

No. We didn't go 0-9, and that would have been with McDaniels with a 2-6 record in the first 8 games. Even then, we were 1-1 after 2 weeks.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 11:26 AM
No. We didn't go 0-9, and that would have been with McDaniels with a 2-6 record in the first 8 games. Even then, we were 1-1 after 2 weeks.

I think he meant the year was 09. But that would still be wrong. I think Denver started 0-2 in 2010 but it may have been 1-1.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 11:34 AM
I think he meant the year was 09. But that would still be wrong. I think Denver started 0-2 in 2010 but it may have been 1-1.

Yeah..it was 1-1... L-W-L W..4 Losses, a W, 5 Losses, a W, a L......4-12

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 12:49 PM
i disagree about the shot gun sucking - but totally agree the amount of times he ran it and still looked terrible being over looked

I should be more specific, the shotgun sucks to run the ball from.

"You cant run 50-60% of your runs plays from the shotgun"-- Mark Schlereth.

I think that number is too low but you get the point.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 01:03 PM
I should be more specific, the shotgun sucks to run the ball from.

"You cant run 50-60% of your runs plays from the shotgun"-- Mark Schlereth.

I think that number is too low but you get the point.

Which, after the Eagles were 9th in the league in rushing, we know is a 100 percent false premise.

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 01:57 PM
Which, after the Eagles were 9th in the league in rushing, we know is a 100 percent false premise.

Stats and rankings don't dispute anything I've said, they're ranked 9th with a glorified draw play playbook in an age where more teams run from the same disadvantage.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 02:29 PM
stats and rankings don't dispute anything i've said, they're ranked 9th with a glorified draw play playbook in an age where more teams run from the same disadvantage.

lol. Ok.

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 02:49 PM
lol. Ok.

Right, it's good you can admit that now, no more articles that I won't read.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 02:56 PM
Right, it's good you can admit that now, no more articles that I won't read.

No., it's funny that everything you say about the shotgun is demonstrably false. It's like a caricature.

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 02:59 PM
No., it's funny that everything you say about the shotgun is demonstrably false. It's like a caricature.

Demonstrate then.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:12 PM
Demonstrate then.

You said it was a draw playbook. That's false.

Valar Morghulis
09-19-2015, 03:25 PM
You said it was a draw playbook. That's false.

how so - the shot gun is a "passing look" and a a Draw play is a run disguised as a pass?

Or am i over simplifying it?

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:35 PM
how so - the shot gun is a "passing look" and a a Draw play is a run disguised as a pass?

Or am i over simplifying it?

You can run any running play you want in the shotgun. It doesn't limit you at all.

Valar Morghulis
09-19-2015, 03:38 PM
You can run any running play you want in the shotgun. It doesn't limit you at all.

oh i agree it does not limit you - i was just getting confused with terminlolgy as i would have described most runs out of the shotgun as a draw play

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 03:38 PM
You said it was a draw playbook. That's false.
I said it was a glorified draw playbook.

"Over the past five seasons, offenses have averaged 5.8 yards per play from Shotgun (not counting the Wildcat or other college-style option plays), but just 5.0 yards per play with the quarterback under center. This wide split exists even if you analyze the data to try to weed out biases like teams using Shotgun more often on third-and-long, or against prevent defenses in the fourth quarter. Shotgun offense is more efficient if you only look at the first half, on every down, and even if you only look at running back carries rather than passes and scrambles"

This is from the same people you've been referencing, nowhere in your articles does it touch on the inherent flaws of trying to run from shotgun, they only imply/suggest that certain teams are more proficient at running certain plays from shotgun than others.

The same article talks about how total team rankings are inherently flawed.

Running from shotgun has inherent, even fatal, flaws. Any system has flaws, Including the Broncos ZBS and their running game flaws.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:39 PM
oh i agree it does not limit you - i was just getting confused with terminlolgy as i would have described most runs out of the shotgun as a draw play

Most plays out of the shotgun aren't draws.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:40 PM
I said it was a glorified draw playbook.

"college-style option plays), but just 5.0 yards per play with the quarterback under center. This wide split exists even if you analyze the data to try to weed out biases like teams using Shotgun more often on third-and-long, or against prevent defenses in the fourth quarter. Shotgun offense is more efficient if you only look at the first half, on every down, and even if you only look at running back carries rather than passes and scrambles"

This is from the same people you've been referencing, nowhere in your articles does it touch on the inherent flaws of trying to run from shotgun, they only imply/suggest that certain teams are more proficient at running certain plays from shotgun than others.

Running from shotgun has inherent, even fatal, flaws, just as any system. Including the Broncos ZBS.

The Packers run tight splits with a fullback from the shotgun. The shotgun does not limit you. Period.

Valar Morghulis
09-19-2015, 03:41 PM
Most plays out of the shotgun aren't draws.

fair enough, like i said i thought a draw play was a run disguised as a pass - and the shot gun was a passing look.

i need to go and learn more about certain plays

Simple Jaded
09-19-2015, 03:44 PM
You can run any running play you want in the shotgun. It doesn't limit you at all.

Now this is false, hell, just lining a RB next to the QB limits your play calls.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:47 PM
Now this is false, hell, just lining a RB next to the QB limits your play calls.

How so?

FanInAZ
09-19-2015, 03:50 PM
You can run any running play you want in the shotgun. It doesn't limit you at all.

You can't run power plays with a fullback leading the way, like "Moose" Johnson did for Emmit Smith & Howard Griffin did for TD.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 03:53 PM
You can't run power plays with a fullback leading the way, like "Moose" Johnson did for Emmit Smith & Howard Griffin did for TD.

Yet, that's the exact play the Packers run out of it all the time.

DenBronx
09-19-2015, 03:59 PM
Normally I would say the run game opens up the passing game. But since our run game is virtually no where to be found it's the pass game that will have to open up the run game. I'd let Manning do his thing and make defense resepect our WRs then that takes pressure off CJ/Hillman and our OL.

It will happen but this offense still marches to the beat of Mannings drum, not Kubiaks.

DenBronx
09-19-2015, 04:01 PM
Apparently calling a run out of the shotgun doesn't always work so well. Just ask the Seahawks and Marshawn Lynch how that worked last week against the Rams when the only needed 1 yard.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 04:04 PM
How so?

Honestly I don't think I've ever seen play action run from the shot gun.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 04:04 PM
Apparently calling a run out of the shotgun doesn't always work so well. Just ask the Seahawks and Marshawn Lynch how that worked last week against the Rams when the only needed 1 yard.

And the Broncos gained four yards out of the shotgun on fourth down if it hadn't been for Manning calling a timeout. That's anecdotal, at best.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 04:05 PM
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen play action run from the shot gun.

Manning has been in Denver for four years now and you've never seen him run fakes out of the gun?

Um, OK.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 04:08 PM
Manning has been in Denver for four years now and you've never seen him run fakes out of the gun?

Um, OK.

I don't remember him running play action from the shot gun. If you show me I'm willing look.

Valar Morghulis
09-19-2015, 04:11 PM
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen play action run from the shot gun.

Manning does it all the time - http://www.milehighreport.com/2012/11/30/3708806/film-study-broncos-playaction-from-the-shotgun

DenBronx
09-19-2015, 05:26 PM
Apparently calling a run out of the shotgun doesn't always work so well. Just ask the Seahawks and Marshawn Lynch how that worked last week against the Rams when the only needed 1 yard.

And the Broncos gained four yards out of the shotgun on fourth down if it hadn't been for Manning calling a timeout. That's anecdotal, at best.

So....we technically didn't gain 4 yards? Am I missing something?

Have we not been using a fullback? What happened to running out of an I formation, wishbone or under center when we want to run it?

I have faith that Kubiak will adjust to everything. He isn't bone headed like Fox was. After this Lions game we have 3 games against teams that are fairly bad. Can see us going 6-0 and finding a rhythm in the run game.

Lions will be another test. If we can win 3 straight games against 3 of the NFLs best defenses then winning ugly is fine with me. I fully believe Manning and Kubiak can co-exist as long as Kubiak knows when to let Manning do his thing during a tight game. The hurry up/no huddle style offense is key to wearing down defenses like the Chiefs, even Sanders said that.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-19-2015, 05:34 PM
And the Broncos gained four yards out of the shotgun on fourth down if it hadn't been for Manning calling a timeout. That's anecdotal, at best.

....maybe because the defense knew they play wasn't going to count?

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 05:35 PM
So....we technically didn't gain 4 yards? Am I missing something?

Have we not been using a fullback? What happened to running out of an I formation, wishbone or under center when we want to run it?

I have faith that Kubiak will adjust to everything. He isn't bone headed like Fox was. After this Lions game we have 3 games against teams that are fairly bad. Can see us going 6-0 and finding a rhythm in the run game.

Lions will be another test. If we can win 3 straight games against 3 of the NFLs best defenses then winning ugly is fine with me. I fully believe Manning and Kubiak can co-exist as long as Kubiak knows when to let Manning do his thing during a tight game. The hurry up/no huddle style offense is key to wearing down defenses like the Chiefs, even Sanders said that.

Who said we'd stop trying to run from under center? My only contention here is to combat the complete myths that exist about running out of the shotgun. Wasn't Anderson last year who said he preferred the shotgun?

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 05:40 PM
....maybe because the defense knew they play wasn't going to count?

You missed the point. The point is that one play is entirely anecdotal.

Northman
09-19-2015, 05:51 PM
Im pretty sure that MO posted stats last year when debating the run from under center vs in the shotgun formation and how it affects the playaction, etc. Basically when Denver runs the playaction from shotgun Manning takes the ball and moves it forward as the back runs in front of him (think the running play that was negated by the TO by Manning on Thursday) and then he passes. That would constitute as a playaction pass.

FanInAZ
09-19-2015, 07:07 PM
Yet, that's the exact play the Packers run out of it all the time.

I just watched 3 1/2 quarters of their game with the Bears. Although they occasionally lined up in on "offset I," they never had Rodgers back in the shotgun when they did. Most of all, they never lined up in a "power I" (QB, FB & TB lined up in a straight line) like we used with TD.

MOtorboat
09-19-2015, 08:21 PM
I just watched 3 1/2 quarters of their game with the Bears. Although they occasionally lined up in on "offset I," they never had Rodgers back in the shotgun when they did. Most of all, they never lined up in a "power I" (QB, FB & TB lined up in a straight line) like we used with TD.

Formation doesn't dictate the play. They may not have run a power out of the shotgun against Chicago, but they do have that play in the playbook.

Joel
09-19-2015, 09:04 PM
You can't run power plays with a fullback leading the way, like "Moose" Johnson did for Emmit Smith & Howard Griffin did for TD.

Sure you can: Just use a shotgun T instead of an I, and the QB can handoff to either back, either of whom can lead block. In some ways it's better, because if you DO pass but have protection issues there's a back on both sides of the QB to pick up whoever gets through the line, rather than TEs trying to help the line stop everyone AT the line (leaving the QB completely on his own if even ONE blitzer gets past them all.) With an aging, immobile and bionic QB in a league where edge rushers lead the way (and usually the sack totals) there are worse things than having someone to chip on BOTH sides of the QB.

Note that that's not taking a position for or against shotgun runs (that debate's too complex for 4AM, even on a weekend,) only a note that FBs can easily lead block in shotgun. That's more about personnel than formation (though a shotgun power I is pretty impractical: We don't want halfbacks lining up on the end line; on the other hand, a power I's hardly the sole two-back formation.) I will say I personally PREFER running from under center, and the Ts 1940 debut is a big reason: It's much harder for the D to be sure whether a handoffs legit when they can't see the ball through the QBs body, which makes running AND passing easier because it slows their response while raising the chance that response is WRONG.

This whole bit about Manning hating the run is pretty absurd though; he's (way) too big a football nerd for that. He knows what ground 'n pound does to defenses and clocks, how much linemen prefer run blocking and how many teams have tried to keep their own D and his elite, nigh unstoppable, passing on the BENCH grinding out wins. After the 2012 playoff shocker against Baltimore, Manning publicly ADMITTED that HE AUDIBLED TO RUNS ON OUR FINAL REGULATION POSSESSION. Sadly, we had a sophomore Hillman running behind the likes of Zane Beadles and a one-legged Kuper forced to back into the starting job the seasons last month despite the metal holding his foot together ripping loose: Man Ram was THAT bad in relief. It was still the right call though, burning Baltimores last TO and leaving them 40 seconds to drive the field to save their season; not Mannings fault it only took our #1 ranked D 3 plays to fail the most basic job a secondary has: Don't let anyone behind you.

Shazam!
09-19-2015, 09:54 PM
You can't run power plays with a fullback leading the way, like "Moose" Johnson did for Emmit Smith & Howard Griffin did for TD.

Sure you can: Just use a shotgun T instead of an I, and the QB can handoff to either back, either of whom can lead block. In some ways it's better, because if you DO pass but have protection issues there's a back on both sides of the QB to pick up whoever gets through the line, rather than TEs trying to help the line stop everyone AT the line (leaving the QB completely on his own if even ONE blitzer gets past them all.) With an aging, immobile and bionic QB in a league where edge rushers lead the way (and usually the sack totals) there are worse things than having someone to chip on BOTH sides of the QB.

Note that that's not taking a position for or against shotgun runs (that debate's too complex for 4AM, even on a weekend,) only a note that FBs can easily lead block in shotgun. That's more about personnel than formation (though a shotgun power I is pretty impractical: We don't want halfbacks lining up on the end line; on the other hand, a power I's hardly the sole two-back formation.) I will say I personally PREFER running from under center, and the Ts 1940 debut is a big reason: It's much harder for the D to be sure whether a handoffs legit when they can't see the ball through the QBs body, which makes running AND passing easier because it slows their response while raising the chance that response is WRONG.

This whole bit about Manning hating the run is pretty absurd though; he's (way) too big a football nerd for that. He knows what ground 'n pound does to defenses and clocks, how much linemen prefer run blocking and how many teams have tried to keep their own D and his elite, nigh unstoppable, passing on the BENCH grinding out wins. After the 2012 playoff shocker against Baltimore, Manning publicly ADMITTED that HE AUDIBLED TO RUNS ON OUR FINAL REGULATION POSSESSION. Sadly, we had a sophomore Hillman running behind the likes of Zane Beadles and a one-legged Kuper forced to back into the starting job the seasons last month despite the metal holding his foot together ripping loose: Man Ram was THAT bad in relief. It was still the right call though, burning Baltimores last TO and leaving them 40 seconds to drive the field to save their season; not Mannings fault it only took our #1 ranked D 3 plays to fail the most basic job a secondary has: Don't let anyone behind you.

Hi Joel!

SR
09-19-2015, 10:00 PM
Hi Joel!

Fml

DenBronx
09-19-2015, 10:57 PM
Hi Joel!

Fml


Lol...you know you miss him.

DenBronx
09-19-2015, 10:59 PM
Side note: the only post that are that long that I even remotely read are G Moneys.

Dzone
09-20-2015, 12:50 AM
Sure you can: Just use a shotgun T instead of an I, and the QB can handoff to either back, either of whom can lead block. In some ways it's better, because if you DO pass but have protection issues there's a back on both sides of the QB to pick up whoever gets through the line, rather than TEs trying to help the line stop everyone AT the line (leaving the QB completely on his own if even ONE blitzer gets past them all.) With an aging, immobile and bionic QB in a league where edge rushers lead the way (and usually the sack totals) there are worse things than having someone to chip on BOTH sides of the QB.

Note that that's not taking a position for or against shotgun runs (that debate's too complex for 4AM, even on a weekend,) only a note that FBs can easily lead block in shotgun. That's more about personnel than formation (though a shotgun power I is pretty impractical: We don't want halfbacks lining up on the end line; on the other hand, a power I's hardly the sole two-back formation.) I will say I personally PREFER running from under center, and the Ts 1940 debut is a big reason: It's much harder for the D to be sure whether a handoffs legit when they can't see the ball through the QBs body, which makes running AND passing easier because it slows their response while raising the chance that response is WRONG.

This whole bit about Manning hating the run is pretty absurd though; he's (way) too big a football nerd for that. He knows what ground 'n pound does to defenses and clocks, how much linemen prefer run blocking and how many teams have tried to keep their own D and his elite, nigh unstoppable, passing on the BENCH grinding out wins. After the 2012 playoff shocker against Baltimore, Manning publicly ADMITTED that HE AUDIBLED TO RUNS ON OUR FINAL REGULATION POSSESSION. Sadly, we had a sophomore Hillman running behind the likes of Zane Beadles and a one-legged Kuper forced to back into the starting job the seasons last month despite the metal holding his foot together ripping loose: Man Ram was THAT bad in relief. It was still the right call though, burning Baltimores last TO and leaving them 40 seconds to drive the field to save their season; not Mannings fault it only took our #1 ranked D 3 plays to fail the most basic job a secondary has: Don't let anyone behind you.
Are you saying you would take Slingin Sammy Baugh over Manning?

DenBronx
09-20-2015, 01:22 AM
Rule #1. Never try and figure out what Joel really means. Your head will explode and the rebuttal will only cause more confusion.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-20-2015, 02:48 AM
Pistol

capt. Jack
09-20-2015, 04:49 AM
They will get it together, till then they will be making adjustments as needed.

Cugel
09-20-2015, 05:31 AM
Vic Lombardi: "For the Kubiak offense to work, and Joel [Dreesen] you can attest to this, you have to be able to run the ball. They can't run it. They can't run it on first and second down. If you can't run it, you can't [do] play-action. If you can't play-action you can't run this offense. So, change the offense."

Joel D.: "I don't think we're there yet. There are a lot of new guys on this OL, and some veteran guys who aren't there yet. So, let's let Clancey Borone get those guys right. There will be a game where, I promise you, where the run game will dominate that offensive performance. I'm telling you that right now."

I don't think they are going to just abandon the idea of Peyton playing under center, but until they can get that OL working right, they are going to have to continue to put Peyton in the shot-gun most of the time. And that will certainly limit the amount they can run.

Alfred Williams put it best: "Running out of the shot-gun is more of an attempt to catch defenses by surprise. It can work sometimes, but you can't run out of the gun all the time."

You saw that Thursday night. They couldn't run the ball at all. The defense will give up an occasional 4 yard run out of shot-gun on 2nd and 7 or something. They are selling out to defend against the pass play at this point.

But, playing out of the shotgun all the time puts all the pressure back on Peyton. The defense is teeing off on him all the time. And that is exactly what Elway brought Kubiak in here to avoid! They want to play "complementary football" where you don't need Peyton to throw for 300 yards and 3 or 4 TDs to win. And baring 5 turnovers plus a fumble return for a TD by the defense they were going to need Peyton to throw for 4 TDs to win this game, because the offense certainly wasn't going to be able to run the ball. They proved that they can't get 1 yard when they need to and have 3rd and 4th down to do it.

Cugel
09-20-2015, 05:37 AM
Surprisingly, Joel put it better than I did:


I will say I personally PREFER running from under center, and the Ts 1940 debut is a big reason: It's much harder for the D to be sure whether a handoffs legit when they can't see the ball through the QBs body, which makes running AND passing easier because it slows their response while raising the chance that response is WRONG.

Leaving out the reference to "T's 1940 debut" you can see why running from the gun doesn't work nearly as well as from under center. Every defender can see whether the RB gets the ball or not. He's in clear space. If the QB is right behind the line, they can't see instantly whether the RB is getting the ball or not because the OL is blocking their view. The play action is designed so that the QB drop-back looks exactly the same whether the QB has the ball or not.

TXBRONC
09-20-2015, 10:31 AM
Rule #1. Never try and figure out what Joel really means. Your head will explode and the rebuttal will only cause more confusion.

I can't even get through a lot of his posts because they're just way to long.

Dzone
09-20-2015, 01:03 PM
Rule #1. Never try and figure out what Joel really means. Your head will explode and the rebuttal will only cause more confusion.
lol...I usually only have time to read the first sentence and move on...my attention span is too short for his posts

Slick
09-20-2015, 01:28 PM
The twitter generation can't handle 3 paragraphs.

wayninja
09-20-2015, 01:31 PM
You end up reading way more going though a 12 page thread than the 3 paragraphs Joel just wrote. And his had pretty good info in it.

TXBRONC
09-20-2015, 02:01 PM
lol...I usually only have time to read the first sentence and move on...my attention span is too short for his posts

QFT. :lol:

Joel
09-20-2015, 03:57 PM
Are you saying you would take Slingin Sammy Baugh over Manning?
In their prime? In a heartbeat; Baugh had at least as much vision and accuracy but far more arm strength and mobility (he still shares the record for CATCHING the most Ints in a game.) He was the first super-accurate passer (largely due to a slavish approach similar to Mannings.) The old joke went:

"Sam, when the receiver breaks, hit him in the eye with the ball."

"Which eye?"

I realize you're (probably) joking a bit, too, but it's a good reminder there's nothing new under the sun. Speaking of which...


Surprisingly, Joel put it better than I did:

Leaving out the reference to "T's 1940 debut" you can see why running from the gun doesn't work nearly as well as from under center. Every defender can see whether the RB gets the ball or not. He's in clear space. If the QB is right behind the line, they can't see instantly whether the RB is getting the ball or not because the OL is blocking their view. The play action is designed so that the QB drop-back looks exactly the same whether the QB has the ball or not.

What formation still holds the NFL record for most points in a game? Not against some pre-war Jags analog either: Against the aforementioned Sammy Baughs 'Skins, in an NFL Championship. Now that more and more genuine "dual threats" pass with credible accuracy and intelligence, the T could have a renaissance, with QBs passing a third of the time, running another third and handing off yet another third, and defenses never knowing which before it's too late to react. At least, if we raise the cap enough to have solid backup QBs when the starter's out with a concussion or broken leg every other week....

Anyway, my point is: Don't knock the T, nor dismiss it as obsolete; it changed football (and promoted passing) more than anything since 1905. One obscure but pivotal reason is that a T-QB routinely hands off with his BACK to the D, which can thus only guess who'll have the ball after his backfield pirouette: Not committing till then risks reacting too late, but committing any sooner risks guessing disastrously wrong. YOUR point's well taken that the line obscures visibility, but it's the difference between a smoke screen and curtain. Taking the snap, backpedaling and doing a 180° looks the same regardless of playcall, too.

Joel
09-20-2015, 04:00 PM
The twitter generation can't handle 3 paragraphs.
THERE'S a QFT.

Slick
09-20-2015, 04:21 PM
Nice to see you around, Joel. Hope you're doing well.

Joel
09-20-2015, 04:31 PM
Vic Lombardi: "For the Kubiak offense to work, and Joel [Dreesen] you can attest to this, you have to be able to run the ball. They can't run it. They can't run it on first and second down. If you can't run it, you can't [do] play-action. If you can't play-action you can't run this offense. So, change the offense."

Joel D.: "I don't think we're there yet. There are a lot of new guys on this OL, and some veteran guys who aren't there yet. So, let's let Clancey Borone get those guys right. There will be a game where, I promise you, where the run game will dominate that offensive performance. I'm telling you that right now."

I don't think they are going to just abandon the idea of Peyton playing under center, but until they can get that OL working right, they are going to have to continue to put Peyton in the shot-gun most of the time. And that will certainly limit the amount they can run.

That may explain why he's looked so much better when we "let Manning be Manning:" He's had to live in a 2:00 drill all game, every game pretty much since he got here, so used to it--but it's also why he's always sucking Mile High wind by the time the snow starts sticking. That's not "letting Manning be Manning" though; he threw a lot in Indy, but they ran to mix it up and grind out wins, because they usually averaged 4+ yds/att (i.e. not TWO.) That's "MAKING Manning be--" actually, never mind. Let's just say that if that could win championships we would've kept doing it instead of spending $20 mil/yr on Manning.


Alfred Williams put it best: "Running out of the shot-gun is more of an attempt to catch defenses by surprise. It can work sometimes, but you can't run out of the gun all the time."
Yeah, that's a great summation. I love a shotgun run every now and then for the same reason I love an occasional 3rd and long draw (to the marginal extent there's a difference.) But I don't want to LIVE there, because those are low percentage plays, whose primary goal is keeping the D honest, and which can ONLY work IF they're occasional rather than frequent. After the D sees a draw on 3rd and 17 for the fifth time in a game, they aren't fooled anymore, just laughing and stuffing it.


You saw that Thursday night. They couldn't run the ball at all. The defense will give up an occasional 4 yard run out of shot-gun on 2nd and 7 or something. They are selling out to defend against the pass play at this point.

That was the biggest difference between our offense and KCs: Both did poorly against great Ds, but their runs usually left with them with something like 2nd and 6-7; ours were little better than incompletes, since we were left in 2nd and 10 either way (when it wasn't 2nd and 13.) It put our offense in a straitjacket with only two basic (and similar) options:

1) Run on 1st down, get stuffed, forcing us to pass into a D expecting nothing else on 2nd and 3rd and 10, then punt, or
2) Pass on 1st down, THEN run and get stuffed, forcing us to pass into a D expecting nothing else on 3rd and 10, then punt.

The only way out of that is for option 2) to immediately get a first down and begin the whole thing all over, which quickly devolves into throwing CONSTANTLY like a team down 20 with <5:00 in regulation. Manning's a HoFer, but there's a reason defenses feast on trailing teams at the end of games: They know what's coming--what MUST--and when the D knows what the offense will do before the offense does, its job is half done. Footballs rules heavily favor the offense, but mainly by giving it the initiative; ceding that initiative to a D cedes it the ADVANTAGE.


But, playing out of the shotgun all the time puts all the pressure back on Peyton. The defense is teeing off on him all the time. And that is exactly what Elway brought Kubiak in here to avoid! They want to play "complementary football" where you don't need Peyton to throw for 300 yards and 3 or 4 TDs to win. And baring 5 turnovers plus a fumble return for a TD by the defense they were going to need Peyton to throw for 4 TDs to win this game, because the offense certainly wasn't going to be able to run the ball. They proved that they can't get 1 yard when they need to and have 3rd and 4th down to do it.

Yup. Elway's way more tired of that crap than I: He spent most of his career LIVING it, while people called him an overated choker (sound like any current Bronco players?) for singlehandedly carrying teams to the playoffs only to prove even the best PLAYER can't beat elite TEAMS alone. Kubiak was there from Day One, and they both know how they finally silenced all critics by becoming champions.

So I'm resigned to the "Sixty Minute Two-Minute Drill" for the rest of the month, maybe till Halloween: It's all we got, more than any time in post Shanny-Broncos history (even more depressing given our inept running since Shanny left.) Even our All Pro guards look like bums right now, the sophomore center called up from the PS looks better than anyone, a rookie's guarding Mannings blind side, and Harris is the only one who's EVER played in Kubiak and Dennisons system. But I expect great improvement; I just hope it happens before Thanksgiving, else this season and Mannings career will probably be done.

Dzone
09-20-2015, 05:05 PM
Good to see Joel back around

I Eat Staples
09-20-2015, 10:37 PM
The Raiders put up 37 on Baltimore, so hopefully we can stop calling them a "great defense" or "one of the best teams in the AFC." They're far from being either.

Slick
09-20-2015, 10:49 PM
The Raiders put up 37 on Baltimore, so hopefully we can stop calling them a "great defense" or "one of the best teams in the AFC." They're far from being either.

The Chiefs smoked the *Patriots last year too. Big deal.

Cugel
09-21-2015, 02:31 AM
Yup. Elway's way more tired of that crap than I: He spent most of his career LIVING it, while people called him an overated choker (sound like any current Bronco players?) for singlehandedly carrying teams to the playoffs only to prove even the best PLAYER can't beat elite TEAMS alone. Kubiak was there from Day One, and they both know how they finally silenced all critics by becoming champions.

That's why Elway was so eager to bring Kubiak in here and why he convinced Peyton to give this a try. But, the difference between Peyton and Elway at the end of his career is night and day. Elway could still run. He could roll out and throw on the run. He could make plays with his feet. Peyton simply can't. His attempts to throw on the roll out just looked ridiculous - he threw at the feet of the WR in both games.

This offense is supposed to be able to move the pocket to lessen the pressure, but they are stuck with Peyton who is an immobile QB.

This is dilemma Denver finds itself in. Kubiak wants to run his system, but they can't do it with Peyton. And if they shift from Peyton to Brock Osweiler they can run his system, but Osweiler will never be a Hall of Fame QB. In fact, unless the OL plays vastly better than they are right now, he will be a disaster, because he's not particularly quick in getting rid of the ball, he's totally inexperienced at making decisions in under 1 second, and he's got that quirky arm mechanic that results in his getting the ball batted down at the LOS despite how tall he is, because he throws side-arm for some reason. That is just insane. He's 6'8"! It's as if Tim Duncan was getting his shot blocked. It should never happen.

DenBronx
09-21-2015, 02:58 AM
The Raiders put up 37 on Baltimore, so hopefully we can stop calling them a "great defense" or "one of the best teams in the AFC." They're far from being either.

A Sugg-less Ravens? Suggs was the heart of that defense. Not the same defense we played last week.

I fully expect the raiders to get back to their losing ways very soon. They got absolutely SMOKED by the Bungels.

Joel
09-21-2015, 05:00 AM
That's why Elway was so eager to bring Kubiak in here and why he convinced Peyton to give this a try. But, the difference between Peyton and Elway at the end of his career is night and day. Elway could still run. He could roll out and throw on the run. He could make plays with his feet. Peyton simply can't. His attempts to throw on the roll out just looked ridiculous - he threw at the feet of the WR in both games.

This offense is supposed to be able to move the pocket to lessen the pressure, but they are stuck with Peyton who is an immobile QB.

This is dilemma Denver finds itself in. Kubiak wants to run his system, but they can't do it with Peyton. And if they shift from Peyton to Brock Osweiler they can run his system, but Osweiler will never be a Hall of Fame QB. In fact, unless the OL plays vastly better than they are right now, he will be a disaster, because he's not particularly quick in getting rid of the ball, he's totally inexperienced at making decisions in under 1 second, and he's got that quirky arm mechanic that results in his getting the ball batted down at the LOS despite how tall he is, because he throws side-arm for some reason. That is just insane. He's 6'8"! It's as if Tim Duncan was getting his shot blocked. It should never happen.

Flacco's not too mobile, and Schaub was a statue, but Kubiak reached the playoffs with both; mobility's a huge asset to his offense, but no prerequisite. In fact, the moment I was sure the Texans (STACKED everywhere else) were doomed was when I saw them drive to Oaklands 5, trailing by 5 at the end of regulation: Schaub took the snap, trotted 2-3 steps to his left, but everyone was covered BUT there was no one in front of him, so he... took another couple steps and scanned the field again, and a safety and ILB started sensing danger, so he... stood there a few more seconds as they drew nearer, and then, FINALLY, he--threw an interception in the end zone: Game over.

He could've trotted into their end zone for the win as easily as he trotted in circles behind the line; he was only 5 yds away and there was literally NO ONE within 10. Then again, Oakland probably had tape of Schaub and knew he was too timid to make that game-winning jog. Kubes still took that neurotic to a Pro Bowl, double digit wins in consecutive seasons and a couple home playoff wins, just as he took a neurotic TOO fond of running to the AFCCG. He even briefly made Griese look passable: Now he has a first ballot HoFer; when (NOT if) he gets the line in shape, we'll be scary.

I just hope Manning lasts that long.

TXBRONC
09-21-2015, 05:58 PM
The Raiders put up 37 on Baltimore, so hopefully we can stop calling them a "great defense" or "one of the best teams in the AFC." They're far from being either.

Whose the we that you're speaking of? They still have a very talented defense even without Suggs and since only the first two games of the season have been played I won't write them off just yet.

I Eat Staples
09-25-2015, 11:16 PM
Let's see if Baltimore makes the playoffs. My bet is they won't. They're an average team at very best.

Dzone
09-26-2015, 12:16 AM
The ravens always seem to find a way ...surprised that I didnt recall hearing dumervils name much in that first game. I was expecting him to get a couple or 3 sacks against those stiffs and the human statue

Cugel
09-26-2015, 12:44 AM
Let's see if Baltimore makes the playoffs. My bet is they won't. They're an average team at very best.
The advantage for the Ravens is that they have a top 10 QB in Joe Flacco. He's not always consistently good, but he has a 5-1 record in the playoffs with lifetime 17 TDs and 2 Ints. He's an incredibly dangerous QB if they get to the playoffs and they've got about a 50-50 chance of doing it at the very least.

This raises an incredibly important point. It flat doesn't matter what a team does in September unless they lose all their games. You can't win the SB in September but you can lose it. But, 3 of the last 5 SB champions were the Packers, the Giants and the Ravens, and they went 10-6, 9-7, and 10-6 (#6 seed wildcard, #4 - worst division winner, and #6 seed wildcard). The 9-7 Giants beat the 14-2 Patriots team that cruised through the AFC like it was an extended party. They did it by playing really tough defense, and having Eli Manning play well. Not amazing, just well enough.

The Broncos are going to win this division. That's pretty clear by now because none of the other teams are really competitive.

So the only question is "will the Broncos have a team that can go on the road in January and win." Well, as of now they certainly have the defense and they DON'T have the offense.

Will that change over the course of the season? It will depend on whether the OL can block better. It simply must and Kubiak is committed to getting them on-track.

It's difficult to foresee this OL struggling like all year unless they suffer injuries to their starters. They have virtually no depth at all except for reserve G Max Garcia. If they can stay healthy and run the ball effectively by December, even if it's from the shotgun, that will be enough.

Because get Peyton into the playoffs with a decent offensive line, the weapons he has and this kind of stifling defense and you have the potential for a SB championship.

That's what Peyton gives you. He doesn't even have to be great this season. He could simply play a few good games in January and they win a championship. John Elway did not have a great game against the Packers in the SB. He threw for 123 yards on 12 of 23 pass attempts, with zero TDs and 1 INT in the end zone. They won anyway.

This defense is better as of right now than any defense the Broncos had in their SB years, but the offense is not as good overall. They are lacking a veteran OL, a runner like Terrell Davis or a Hall of Fame TE like Shannon Sharpe. On the other hand, D.T. and Sanders are more talented WRs than Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey, so that counter-balances somewhat.

Ravage!!!
09-26-2015, 09:40 AM
Let's see if Baltimore makes the playoffs. My bet is they won't. They're an average team at very best.

They don't have any offensive weapons to speak of, that's for sure. Both teams had much more time to prepare for each other whenwe played Baltimore, we'll see if the Ravens improve (which they will with their coaching)....or if they are the kind of team that loses to the Raiders at the end of the season.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-28-2015, 12:52 AM
Pistol

Called it :D

CrazyHorse
09-28-2015, 01:12 AM
Baby steps. We've made progress each week. Next three games are Minnesota at home, then the Raiders and Browns. All three of those games should be winnable even the way the offense is playing now. If we haven't found some sort of groove by then that's when it's time to panic.

DenBronx
09-28-2015, 01:19 AM
Let's see if Baltimore makes the playoffs. My bet is they won't. They're an average team at very best.

I doubt they will. Teams like Buffalo, KC and Jets all look better this year. Got $20 that says Balt will miss the playoffs.

CrazyHorse
09-28-2015, 01:28 AM
I doubt they will. Teams like Buffalo, KC and Jets all look better this year. Got $20 that says Balt will miss the playoffs.

Yes, but they're KC, Buffalo, and the Jets. That's what they do.

Joel
09-28-2015, 02:05 AM
Called it :D
Yeah, good call; it really does seem to be the perfect hybrid, well suited to both Kubiaks runs and Mannings shotgun passes (and our awful blocking.) Restricts and reveals nothing; allows and enables everything.

silkamilkamonico
10-15-2015, 07:07 PM
Coming up on Game 6 here - just seeing if that offense will start gelling yet....

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 05:16 AM
Coming up on Game 6 here - just seeing if that offense will start gelling yet....

Somebody must have left the top off the gel because there's no gel..... You can't gel when your struggling due to the OTHER teams perfect game plan to capitalize on a qb who can't throw anymore

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 05:17 AM
Yeah, good call; it really does seem to be the perfect hybrid, well suited to both Kubiaks runs and Mannings shotgun passes (and our awful blocking.) Restricts and reveals nothing; allows and enables everything.

This hybrid has done absolutely nothing but make things worse.

Ravage!!!
10-16-2015, 10:21 AM
Somebody must have left the top off the gel because there's no gel..... You can't gel when your struggling due to the OTHER teams perfect game plan to capitalize on a qb who can't throw anymore

Wait.. this is funny because the Broncos are undefeated against these supposed PERFECT game plans to capitalize on a QB that can't throw.

Cugel
10-16-2015, 01:37 PM
Call me when the OL can pass-block and then we'll see how Peyton does. If he's still struggling then all the critics will have a point. Until then, Not!

BroncoJoe
10-16-2015, 01:55 PM
Call me when the OL can pass-block and then we'll see how Peyton does. If he's still struggling then all the critics will have a point. Until then, Not!

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Total QBR (listed as just QBR) is a metric created by the ESPN Stats & Information group. Total QBR is based on the by the quarterback on each play, then adjusts the numbers to a scale of 0-100. There are five main differences between Total QBR and Football Outsiders' DVOA metric (with further explanation here):
Total QBR incorporates information from game charting, such as passes dropped or thrown away on purpose.
Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.
Total QBR has a clutch factor which adds (or subtracts) value for quarterbacks who perform best (or worst) in high-leverage situations.
Total QBR combines passing and rushing value into one number and differentiates between scrambles and planned runs.
Total QBR is not adjusted for strength of opponent.

Manning isn't playing well, and it's not ALL on the OL.

slim
10-16-2015, 01:57 PM
I am relaxed. ...awaiting further instruction.

TXBRONC
10-16-2015, 02:00 PM
I am relaxed. ...awaiting further instruction.

Have a beer.

BroncoJoe
10-16-2015, 02:02 PM
Here's another interesting read:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2015/week-5-quick-reads


The significance of all this is that Winston and Kaepernick, who entered Week 5 last and next-to-last in the NFL in total passing DYAR, both surpassed Manning in the season-long rankings, leaving Manning at the bottom of the pile. Let me state this clearly, because it's a remarkable thing to consider: through five weeks of the 2015 season, Peyton Manning has been, statistically, the worst starting quarterback in the NFL. This is insane to consider. Manning was 12th in DYAR in his rookie season in Indianapolis, and he missed the 2011 campaign with a neck injury. Otherwise, Manning has never finished worse than sixth in DYAR, placing in the top three 13 times (including each of his last 11 healthy seasons), and leading the league in DYAR six times.

But, it's all on the OL!!!!!! Even though Manning has played with sub-par OL's his entire career...

Northman
10-16-2015, 02:06 PM
Uh oh, now you gone and dun it Joe. Going to piss in the Wheaties of all the flower children.

BroncoJoe
10-16-2015, 02:08 PM
I simply hate it when some people refuse to admit that an athlete has lost it physically. It's been a great career - no brainer first ballot HOF QB. Can be mentioned among the greatest to ever play.

Not in 2015.

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 05:41 PM
Here's another interesting read:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2015/week-5-quick-reads



But, it's all on the OL!!!!!! Even though Manning has played with sub-par OL's his entire career...
Holy smokes I had no idea manning is ranked dead last. It's worse than I thought.

NightTerror218
10-16-2015, 06:28 PM
I just saw this when watching highlights of last sunday.

Manning's bad pick in endzone. His RB (Hillman) came out of backfield to the right with nobody anywhere close to him. Appeared closest defender was in the endzone. I have seen this a few times but never see the RB get the ball. I would take this play and 5 yards all game. RB also made the tackle on Woodson after the INT.

My question is manning forcing it? I know he has small amount t of time in pocket. TE never broke either direction or turned around on that pass.

slim
10-16-2015, 08:47 PM
Is he forcing it?

Of course he is.

He is constantly throwing into double coverage and has had at least 6 ints that were flat dropped by DBs.

Joel
10-16-2015, 08:53 PM
I just saw this when watching highlights of last sunday.

Manning's bad pick in endzone. His RB (Hillman) came out of backfield to the right with nobody anywhere close to him. Appeared closest defender was in the endzone. I have seen this a few times but never see the RB get the ball. I would take this play and 5 yards all game. RB also made the tackle on Woodson after the INT.

My question is manning forcing it? I know he has small amount t of time in pocket. TE never broke either direction or turned around on that pass.
Again, re-watch that play; the unblocked LB's literally right over center at the snap, when the C goes right and the LG left, so it's pretty much impossible to miss. Manning was already going down when he threw that ball, so, other than signing with a team that has NO line, what "bad decision" was involved?

Joel
10-16-2015, 08:57 PM
Here's another interesting read:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2015/week-5-quick-reads

But, it's all on the OL!!!!!! Even though Manning has played with sub-par OL's his entire career...
Yeah, Jeff Saturday was a scrub, Tarik Glenn was so bad he had to quit because no one wanted him, and Ryan Diem was just a bum. Y'know, it's funny, 'cause back in 2013 it was all "our sack total's so low it's... exactly what Manning averaged in Indy: That PROVES we have a great line!" Now all of a sudden the elite Colts linemen who "proved" ours elite just two years ago were bums who "prove" Manning could win a SB with a 6-man team if he weren't so old. Define the narrative, then find/alter/invent the facts to support it, even if they directly contradict yesterdays equally definitive claim.

In 2013, "washed up" Manning had the BEST SEASON BY ANY QB EVER, but how well did he compensate for a truly awful line in the playoffs? A WILDCARD team nearly forced OT (after beating us in our own house in the regular season) and we scored all of ONCE in the SB (on 3rd qtrs final play: They nearly shut us out!) Hell, a team that finished 3-13 led us 21-7 in Mile High before we benched JT and sent Dreessen out to help Clark do his job after a strip-sack (his second in as many games) set up an easy Washington TD. Too bad we didn't keep it up; next week Clark set up a TD with a THIRD strip-sack that let SD back in the game (they came amazingly close to going 3-0 against us and turning our playoffs into yet another one-and-done embarrassment.) That all on Old Man Peyton, too?

Then how'd he throw 55 TDs?

Know what? Fickle "fans" incapable of remembering >1 year into the past have convinced me; let's DO IT, just throw Oz out there after his 3½ year benchwarming career to get murdered behind the same guys still learning the playbook and each others names, then when he fails as disastrously (or WORSE) we can all scream at the guy we screamed FOR last week and demand HE be replaced, too: Works for our RBs.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-16-2015, 11:43 PM
Again, re-watch that play; the unblocked LB's literally right over center at the snap, when the C goes right and the LG left, so it's pretty much impossible to miss. Manning was already going down when he threw that ball, so, other than signing with a team that has NO line, what "bad decision" was involved?

How about taking a sack instead of throwing into triple coverage?

Manning is not responsible for the breakdown in protection, but he is 100% responsible for choosing to the throw the ball into a congested area. How can you deny that?

We've got yakablabalotaboutmanning on side denying the o-line is part of the problem in the passing game, and you on the other side denying that Manning had thrown some horrible passes and has lost some arm talent.

Its getting silly.

Simple Jaded
10-17-2015, 01:11 AM
He just wins!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-17-2015, 01:35 AM
He just wins!
#winning

Northman
10-17-2015, 08:19 AM
How about taking a sack instead of throwing into triple coverage?

Manning is not responsible for the breakdown in protection, but he is 100% responsible for choosing to the throw the ball into a congested area. How can you deny that?



NO, Joel would much rather have him throw the ball and lose a scoring opportunity altogether. I would much rather have Capt Forehead pull the fainting goat there rather than leave points off the board. Its completely stupid to throw that pass.

Valar Morghulis
10-17-2015, 08:33 AM
NO, Joel would much rather have him throw the ball and lose a scoring opportunity altogether. I would much rather have Capt Forehead pull the fainting goat there rather than leave points off the board. Its completely stupid to throw that pass.

Capt forehead lol

underrated29
10-17-2015, 09:52 AM
Doesn't Andrew luck actually have worse numbers this year?

Didnt elway have numbers at this point in 96 match near exactly ?



Manning may have played with bad OLs before but never one as bad as this. That is the worst understatement yet. Our OL is the worst I've seen it since I've been alive. I don't understand why people make excuses for it. It is not a glaring weakness it is a sieve of despair and falsehoods.

Had this online been on any other team that is ALL you would hear about but because it's on our team with an insane defense, and a HOF QB it gets attention but ultimately passed over.

Ravage!!!
10-17-2015, 10:01 AM
I"ve said that Manning is looking bad, but that being said...... our OL is really really REALLY bad.

Even guys like Manning will get frustrated with not getting "something done" on offense, and will eventually start th rowing balls into tighter windows, and deeper routes (albeit at faster timing) just to get SOME kind offense going. Generally, if Peyton has time, he hits a WR. THe OL is horrendous, and it's being exacerbated due to the fact that Manning doesn't have a Slot or TE to keep defenses concerned or even watching.

Dzone
10-17-2015, 10:14 AM
He just wins!
Tebow, all he do is win!

Yashahla17
10-17-2015, 10:22 AM
Nothing like saying it's fine to just throw pick sixes and endless ints because a sack was coming. You expect that from a rookie in his first start or two. Anything more is just a player making dumb decisions.

Joel
10-17-2015, 11:16 AM
Nothing like saying it's fine to just throw pick sixes and endless ints because a sack was coming. You expect that from a rookie in his first start or two. Anything more is just a player making dumb decisions.
Ints due to hits altering throws aren't "bad decisions;" it's a bit like when The Hidden Game of Football asked "does a hill 'underestimate' a bulldozer?" That's before we consider all the people comparing Manning to Kyle "Fainting Goat" Orton when he DOES take a sack rather than risk an Int. Failure if he doesn't, failure if he doesn't: We KNOW he's a failure; actually bothering to find out what HAPPENED is a trivial formality that merely tells us WHY he's a failure (even if it directly contradicts yesterdays "why.")

Cugel
10-17-2015, 11:09 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Total QBR (listed as just QBR) is a metric created by the ESPN Stats & Information group. Total QBR is based on the by the quarterback on each play, then adjusts the numbers to a scale of 0-100. There are five main differences between Total QBR and Football Outsiders' DVOA metric (with further explanation here):
Total QBR incorporates information from game charting, such as passes dropped or thrown away on purpose.
Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.

Total QBR has a clutch factor which adds (or subtracts) value for quarterbacks who perform best (or worst) in high-leverage situations.

Total QBR combines passing and rushing value into one number and differentiates between scrambles and planned runs.

Total QBR is not adjusted for strength of opponent.

Manning isn't playing well, and it's not ALL on the OL.

Here's how you can tell that argument is Bull-shit.

During the next game (or really go back and watch any game this season) when Manning drops back to pass count to yourself "one one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand".

You will never get to three one-thousand before Manning has released the ball or been sacked. They are in his face in 2 seconds on every single play. He's having to make decisions in about 1 1/2 seconds and have the ball out of his hands before 2 seconds have elapsed. That ain't good for any QB. And on the self-sacks, they are running right through the OL essentially unblocked. "Ole!"

An AVERAGE NFL OL is supposed to be able to pass-block for an average of 3 seconds.

Maybe a QB with a cannon for an arm like Aaron Rogers or who is a great runner like Russell Wilson could do better behind this line, with the 30th rushing attack in football, but neither of them is coming to Denver and NOBODY could do consistently well with this kind of pathetic blocking.

Cugel
10-17-2015, 11:22 PM
I simply hate it when some people refuse to admit that an athlete has lost it physically. It's been a great career - no brainer first ballot HOF QB. Can be mentioned among the greatest to ever play.

Not in 2015.

He "lost it physically" in 2011 as a result of 4 neck surgeries. What you "hate" is the results - in the super-bowl and late last season, and this season. Well the results are failure because nobody is blocking for him, and nobody can run the ball on this team.

His arm has never regained its strength he had in 2010. He has to step into his throws or he can get nothing on them. Why do you think he played so badly in the Super-Bowl? Was he "washed up" then too? You can't excuse it as "just one game." Go back and look at that game. It looks just the same as any game this year. Peyton was overthrowing receivers, throwing bad passes, and making absurd mistakes like looking directly at his WR and getting picked off for a TD. Sound familiar?

But, the constant B.S. about Peyton is that his "arm" is different than last season or the season before. It's flat not. Go back and look at the video of past seasons and stop being naive.

Take a look at any interception he's thrown in the last 3 years, and then ask "did he have a chance to step into a clean pocket and make a throw with his momentum moving forward, or were defenders right in his face?" Because he sure doesn't have the arm strength to muscle it down field. He has to use his body. Well, that ain't new!

It seems some fans just want to rant and not analyse what's actually going on.

BroncoJoe
10-18-2015, 07:09 AM
It seems some fans just want to rant and not analyse what's actually going on.

This is the only truth in your two posts.

Joel
10-18-2015, 08:06 AM
This is the only truth in your two posts.
That's false, but would be sufficient for his point even if it weren't.

Northman
10-18-2015, 09:19 AM
That's false, but would be sufficient for his point even if it weren't.

No, you are wrong.

Joel
10-18-2015, 06:21 PM
No, you are wrong.
That's also false, but would be better than being a closeted Cheatriots fan even if it weren't. ;)

Northman
10-18-2015, 06:22 PM
That's also false, but would be better than being a closeted Cheatriots fan even if it weren't. ;)

You are wrong. Again.

Yashahla17
10-18-2015, 06:24 PM
Relax it's only 6 games not including pre season the offense will be fine.

NightTerror218
10-18-2015, 06:28 PM
I got past 3 one thousand many times in this game.

Joel
10-18-2015, 08:50 PM
I got past 3 one thousand many times in this game.
How many times was the pocket clean?

Northman
10-18-2015, 08:52 PM
I can tell you this much, Manning got more time today than Luck is right now and Andrew made a fantastic play.

Simple Jaded
10-18-2015, 09:12 PM
Omg, didn't you see how much Manning inspires the defense to win the game all on their own? What else do you expect? His receivers suck, his line sucks and the coaches are sabatoging his career with horrible play calling.

Haters gonna hate.

Krugan
10-18-2015, 09:26 PM
well, ill enjoy the 6-0 start and 4 game lead in the division for the next couple weeks.

then worry about where the train goes from there.

I saw improvements int eh run blocking and pass blocking. Still there are gaps and mistakes being made, nto only from our QB but from the oline, the recivers, the TE's which i really dont think we have any decent ones.

This list is long and boring and really depressing, so once again ill enjoy this effort, and hope things continue to improve. We still ahve an amazing defense, and an offense that can improve and grow. The season isnt over, and we are in the drivers seat for our division, which brings me alot of happiness, because, it wont be long until we once again have to rebuild/retool/rewtfever.

pulse
10-18-2015, 09:34 PM
I can tell you this much, Manning got more time today than Luck is right now and Andrew made a fantastic play.

Northman, you're stretching here. You're comparing our old Manning to a 26 year-old 250lb bull of a Pro Bowl QB who's basically a younger and smarter version of Ben Roethlisberger. Yeah, that'd be a nice luxury that 27-29 other NFL teams would love to have. Well, we don't have that, so whatever. I guess we'll just have to make due with our old fragile Manning unless you can make that trade happen. I'll be waiting.

Also, Luck hasn't had shit for an oline all year either and it has cost them losses. Even he can't overcome bad oline play all the time. He's also already been injured.