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View Full Version : Congrats, Kubiak - You turned Peyton Manning into Matt Schaub



OrangeHoof
09-14-2015, 01:35 AM
WTF was that??? Four sacks. A pick 6. Misdirected throws. Tossing for three yards on 3rd-and-8. This looks like the Texans offense minus Andre Johnson. You might as well announce to the opposition that you are running left on first down every series because that's the play call. I know it's coming. By November, even the peanut vendors at Mile High will know it's coming. The same uber-predictable slop I got tired of watching in Houston.

I never did understand what was wrong with scoring 35 points a game but some of you had a major problem with that. Wade Phillips may save Kubiak's job this year but it will either be Manning's last or Kubiak's last. At least I hope so. Today was terrible. Your best offensive player was McManus??? Really??

There's no way a Peyton Manning-run offense should look this pitiful.

Valar Morghulis
09-14-2015, 02:14 AM
WTF was that??? Four sacks. A pick 6. Misdirected throws. Tossing for three yards on 3rd-and-8. This looks like the Texans offense minus Andre Johnson. You might as well announce to the opposition that you are running left on first down every series because that's the play call. I know it's coming. By November, even the peanut vendors at Mile High will know it's coming. The same uber-predictable slop I got tired of watching in Houston. I never did understand what was wrong with scoring 35 points a game but some of you had a major problem with that. Wade Phillips may save Kubiak's job this year but it will either be Manning's last or Kubiak's last. At least I hope so. Today was terrible. Your best offensive player was McManus??? Really?? There's no way a Peyton Manning-run offense should look this pitiful.

Are you a Broncos fan?

Our just an angry fan.

CrazyHorse
09-14-2015, 03:17 AM
Is Kubes calling the plays? Who's our offensive coordinator?

OrangeHoof
09-14-2015, 03:19 AM
Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.

CrazyHorse
09-14-2015, 04:07 AM
Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.

There were a couple shots down the field but they were overthrown. I'd like to see more play-action, but that only works when the running game is going.

Rick
09-14-2015, 04:55 AM
Personally I think we are going to see a lot of this throughout the season. I think we are seeing a 39 year old QB and would argue Kubiak hasn't turned Manning into Schaub but rather Manning became one on his own.

We have seen this plenty of times over the last few years when put up against a good pressuring defense.

I think Manning can only play from the gun anymore when he has time to get it away, but if you can apply pressure, cut off the short game, and make Manning deliver shots down the field while under pressure you will beat him almost every time. That isn't on Kubiak anymore than that was on Fox/Gates. The blueprint was put out there by Seattle and other teams are starting to get better at it. To have Manning out there we need an elite pass blocking line.

In a shotgun offense, if given all the time he needs to throw, I will take Manning over any other QB in the league. In our offense specifically, give me Brock. who's big arm forces teams to respect the deep pass and not just sit the short routes.

Just my thoughts on it, I am sure there will be plenty that will now chime in saying I said Brock was a better QB, which is of course NOT what I said, but flame away anyway.

Davii
09-14-2015, 04:55 AM
Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.

"At some point".... Dude, that was game one. Relax.

sneakers
09-14-2015, 05:26 AM
http://i.imgur.com/Rpt1jQA.png

chazoe60
09-14-2015, 06:52 AM
Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.
You're right, it was Kubiak who told Manning to overthrow/underthrow/completely miss wide open deep receivers. Stoopid Kubiak.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:05 AM
WTF was that??? Four sacks. A pick 6. Misdirected throws. Tossing for three yards on 3rd-and-8. This looks like the Texans offense minus Andre Johnson. You might as well announce to the opposition that you are running left on first down every series because that's the play call. I know it's coming. By November, even the peanut vendors at Mile High will know it's coming. The same uber-predictable slop I got tired of watching in Houston.

I never did understand what was wrong with scoring 35 points a game but some of you had a major problem with that. Wade Phillips may save Kubiak's job this year but it will either be Manning's last or Kubiak's last. At least I hope so. Today was terrible. Your best offensive player was McManus??? Really??

There's no way a Peyton Manning-run offense should look this pitiful.


Kubiak is not turning Manning into Schaub. Manning is 39 years young in a new offense and with limited reps during training camp and the preseason. Also we have offensive line with four new starters.. Hoof before hitting the panic button just give it a chance to work itself out.

Deep cleansing breaths my friend. Deep cleansing breaths. Btw Elway said the goal isn't to be playing our best football now but late in December and January.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:09 AM
WTF was that??? Four sacks. A pick 6. Misdirected throws. Tossing for three yards on 3rd-and-8. This looks like the Texans offense minus Andre Johnson. You might as well announce to the opposition that you are running left on first down every series because that's the play call. I know it's coming. By November, even the peanut vendors at Mile High will know it's coming. The same uber-predictable slop I got tired of watching in Houston.

I never did understand what was wrong with scoring 35 points a game but some of you had a major problem with that. Wade Phillips may save Kubiak's job this year but it will either be Manning's last or Kubiak's last. At least I hope so. Today was terrible. Your best offensive player was McManus??? Really??

There's no way a Peyton Manning-run offense should look this pitiful.


Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.


While i agree that Manning looked like fainting goat out there i disagree that it had to do with Kubes. For starters we have a very young and inexperienced Oline. Secondly, even when there was time Manning was just off much like the end of the last year when Kubiak wasnt even the coach of the team. And i dont think you will find anyone who had a problem with the team scoring 35 points a game but you will find people who hated the fact that the other teams would score 34 points a game. Sadly when trying to make the defense better you will lose some other weapons on other areas of the team. The only thing i would agree with you about this is that i dont think Manning is actually suited for this style of offense. On the one rollout that he had he totally missed a wide open receiver but thats of a little consequence as he missed on some other passes while throwing from the pocket. Personally with the way our defense played yesterday i would much rather see Oz in there because he can at least move around better and has the better arm. People hate that i say that but even if we had Andrew Luck behind Manning i would want him to start over Manning. I just think at this stage Manning's age is catching up with him. Still a lot of football left so maybe he gets better but im not really holding my breath. Either way, i dont blame Kubiak for how Manning played yesterday.

Dzone
09-14-2015, 09:12 AM
We are going to miss the star wars numbers. This new way of winning games is going to take some getting used to, but if we keep winning, we will learn to love it

GEM
09-14-2015, 09:18 AM
Yes, Kubiak is the brain in Manning's head.

Even when Manning had the chance to throw the ball, he wet the effing bed. Place the blame where it belongs, and it's a number of things...

1) QB is 39 years old, has no feeling in his fingertips, is having trouble getting the ball over the heads of defenders (notice how many bat downs?), and is having trouble with getting the ball to where the receiver is. That has a lot of reasons, Manning didn't play this preseason, Sanders didn't play this preseason, he's getting effing old, age catches up with everyone.
2) Did you see the oline? Holy shit were they a hot pile of shit! This is the first game where they have played together, the first game the left guard has even played with this team. They haven't gelled and it's evident.

But yea, that's all the first year head coach's fault. :laugh: Holy hell, dude. Chill out.

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2015, 09:25 AM
Have quite a few friends who are Texans fans and said on hire and throughout yesterday Kubiak will test your patience. Kubiak is seen as incredibly stubborn and sticks with things that aren't working for prolonged periods of time. He sticks with the game plan. Creativity isn't the main goal with him it seems.

That said he had years even with Schaub where there were big numbers at the QB position.

I don't see DT and CJ getting bottled up every week like this though, let alone Peyton. There's definitely reason for concern though.

Dzone
09-14-2015, 09:43 AM
John Fox might be more daring than Kubiak. Yes, you could see Kubiak driving us crazy with his conservative stubbornness. He will be fine as long as we have a talented team.

Timmy!
09-14-2015, 11:12 AM
No reason to hit the panic button. The offense is going to take time. The Oline got killed. This offense is based off the running game. Zero running game=play action doesn't work for shit, which means our elderly QB gets killed in the first half and then starts short arming throws. If the Broncos can't run at all Manning is going to need a stretcher by week 5. It's early though, and is as Nostatimmy predicted.

Jaws
09-14-2015, 01:43 PM
Play modestly and keep on winning that's fine by me this stage of the season.
I can live ok without high octane early season fireworks as long as we have a QB at the business end who isn't all burned out.

Cugel
09-14-2015, 01:48 PM
Personally I think we are going to see a lot of this throughout the season. I think we are seeing a 39 year old QB and would argue Kubiak hasn't turned Manning into Schaub but rather Manning became one on his own.

We have seen this plenty of times over the last few years when put up against a good pressuring defense.

I think Manning can only play from the gun anymore when he has time to get it away, but if you can apply pressure, cut off the short game, and make Manning deliver shots down the field while under pressure you will beat him almost every time. That isn't on Kubiak anymore than that was on Fox/Gates. The blueprint was put out there by Seattle and other teams are starting to get better at it. To have Manning out there we need an elite pass blocking line.

In a shotgun offense, if given all the time he needs to throw, I will take Manning over any other QB in the league. In our offense specifically, give me Brock. who's big arm forces teams to respect the deep pass and not just sit the short routes.

Just my thoughts on it, I am sure there will be plenty that will now chime in saying I said Brock was a better QB, which is of course NOT what I said, but flame away anyway.

This comment is at least partly right in some points.

But, first, we can ignore Brock Osweiler comments entirely. We are not going to see Brock Osweiler this season. At all.That won't stop some fans from screaming for Brock all year, but it's not going to happen. So, it's pointless to whine on about it.

Second, there's actually a STRATEGIC PLAN in place here in Denver for the first time in years. I think it's years overdue.

For years during Elway's QB reign he was asked to go out and win the game in the 4th quarter. Often they were behind. He had to run around and "make something happen." But, at 38 and 39 years old, relying on that athleticism just isn't enough. Hence Kubiak, Shanahan redesigned the offense to rely more on running the ball and playing physical defense.

Elway has wanted to implement that scheme since he was hired as VP of Football Operations. He finally got the chance this year, but he had to convince Peyton to accept it. That wasn't easy. In order to fit within the salary cap structure for the team they wanted to assemble, they needed Peyton to take a pay cut. From reasons of pride he was reluctant to do that. In addition, instead of Peyton running the offense from the line of scrimmage, they are insisting that Peyton run the plays designed. He has 1 check down if the defense is stacked to stop the particular play called, but he's not coming up to the line yelling "Hurry! Hurry!", surveying the defense and deciding on a play right there.

In short they took a lot of power away from Peyton. Elway convinced Peyton to accept this by talking to him about his own career and how this system helped him win 2 SBs and go out a winner.

You see Peyton is not totally comfortable yet in this new offense. In his press conference he deflected questions about "why were you back in the shot-gun in certain situations" with "I'm not the right person to answer that question."

That's a shocking answer we would never had heard from Peyton in the past. "Sorry, that's above my pay-grade" and it reflects a certain lingering resentment, that he's being criticized, and a part of him is thinking "if we still were running things the way I did back in the day this wouldn't be happening and I wouldn't have to answer this stupid question!" So, the Peyton Manning adjustment is going to take some time. Fans will simply have to be patient.

Then there's the offensive line, which is a hodge-podge of new players.

Now they could have gone out in FA and signed a bunch of FA veterans to come in and man the OL. In the short term that would have worked better. But, they want a YOUNG OL that can grow together over the next several years. And they don't want to over-pay on OL given the need to re-sign veterans like Chris Harris, Von Miller, D.T., etc. They have a very cheap OL right now. Even Evan Mathis is only making $4 million this year.

But, the result is a slow learning process for the OL in which Peyton is taking a beating, he was sacked 4 times, and he has to get rid of the ball quicker than he would like to, and that results in some incompletes. It's going to take some time for a bunch of rookies and players who have never played together on the OL to learn to play as a unit.

You saw that yesterday. They generally did OK in straight pass-rush situations, but delayed blitzes killed them with mis-communications. They will have to work those kinks out, and it will take some time.

They want to run more, but it's tough to do that with an inexperienced OL against the Ravens tuff run defense. It will be tough in KC this week too.

This is a work in progress. Elway has in mind the team that went to the SB - where they won despite Elway throwing for 123 yards with no TDs and 1 INT.

They will certainly depend on Peyton to win some games with his arm this year. They just need to keep working to make the adjustment, run the ball more effectively, and most importantly get the OL all on the same page together.

But, the most essential ingredient to a SB championship is in place - maybe the best defense in football.

Can they win some games while the offense gets it's act together? We'll see, but the results are certainly encouraging so far.

foco
09-14-2015, 03:28 PM
"But, first, we can ignore Brock Osweiler comments entirely. We are not going to see Brock Osweiler this season. At all.That won't stop some fans from screaming for Brock all year, but it's not going to happen. So, it's pointless to whine on about it."

I'm sorry but I think this statement is just as preposterous as people calling for Oz to start on Thursday. I think Elway has shown that he'll do WHATEVER gives the Broncos a better chance to win a SB. If that becomes Oz starting, he's gonna do it. Unfortunately, we are now at a 9 game sample size (counting the div loss, not counting the preseason) of Manning being an average to below average QB. I understand that's small, even considering the short NFL season, so I'm of the opinion that we have to give this "blend" of manning ball and the Kubiak system at least another 3 games. But if Manning continues to look like he has, I think it's completely implausible that Elway doesn't pull the plug on the manning era. His duty is to the Broncos, not Peyton's legacy.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2015, 03:50 PM
Hey... so many people on this board were SCREAMING to have Kubiak be our HC.... and this is what I said would happen if he did. He handicpped offensive talent when in Houston, and he will again here. I'm just not surprised, at all.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 03:53 PM
I kinda hate to bring up old news but we didnt really need the Kubiak project right now.

Would have loved to see us keep Fox, Gase, Julius and Thomas. THEN all we had to do was hire Wade Phillips as DC. This team would have not skipped a beat on offense and been insane on defense.

I am really disappointed we have handcuffed Peyton Manning. Take away his weapons and throw in a complete NEW offense maybe for his final season? You know, the season we should have went ALL-IN??? This offense obviously isn't his style. This is the same offense that didn't do jack shit post Elway. It's a thing of the past, it's old and stale, doesn't work unless you have a good RB with a solid OL, which we don't have. I'd rather see Manning do his thing...just saying...the minimum we should have done was keep Mannings favorite redzone target, Julius.

I know it's still early but this is frustrating to see.

Thursday night could really get ugly against that KC defense.


And yes....Manning does look like Schaub in this offense. Brock might be a better fit but Mannings a better QB.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 03:56 PM
Do you guys remember that time prior to this year when we beat Baltimore by smacking them in the mouth?

That's right, this was the first time we've done that.

I'll take Kubes over any coach we've had in the last 10 years.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 03:58 PM
And who the hell cares if Elway won his SBs in this style of offense. The league has drastically changed to favor a throwing style offense and has handicapped defenses. Manning shredded the Broncos in his prime with a different offense and that was even way back then. Let Manning be Manning and good things will happen, if not he will look like a fainting goat or Kyle Ortonish.

I hear one of Kubiaks best traits is he will adjust. We he better ******* adjust by Thursday.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 03:59 PM
Do you guys remember that time prior to this year when we beat Baltimore by smacking them in the mouth?

That's right, this was the first time we've done that.

I'll take Kubes over any coach we've had in the last 10 years.

Thank you Wade Phillips only for that.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 03:59 PM
Wow.

Blame everyone and everything except the guy who touches the ball on every snap.

Makes sense.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 04:02 PM
Thank you Wade Phillips only for that.

Don't be a sally. We beat a team that was one score away from the SB last year.

It's obvious Manning isn't the same guy, but I don't care because I think we can win the SB.

foco
09-14-2015, 04:14 PM
Would have loved to see us keep Fox, Gase, Julius and Thomas. THEN all we had to do was hire Wade Phillips as DC. This team would have not skipped a beat on offense and been insane on defense.



There's definitely something to this. However, I think Fox's time with the broncos was certainly done after the Glazer leak. We were gonna be looking for a new head coach if we didn't win a SB. My main beef with the Broncos plan was with this "transition year." I'm happy with the Kubiak HC choice but I didn't understand putting the least mobile qb of the past 25yrs (and I'm sorry, but that's what Peyton is now) in a system where mobility is a REQUIREMENT. If we want to be a hard nosed defensive team that runs the ball with zone stretches and tries to control the clock, Peyton was a poor fit from the beginning. That said, I'm sure it's hard to let a guy like Peyton Manning, with all of his accomplishments, go when he still wants to play. Ted Thompson was MURDERED by the press and fans for letting Favre walk, but it turned out to be the right choice. I thought us holding on to peyton for this year said more about Oz than it did about Peyton. Maybe, hopefully, he made a leap the front office wasn't counting on during this last offseason.

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2015, 04:16 PM
Someone start a "Is Manning Done?" thread. We running 60/40 he is here?

Unsure how the reaction could be any worse even had the Broncos lost.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 04:18 PM
Well, Elway did "make" him take a $4-5 million paycut...

I think they're being cautious with Manning. I also think they would have been fine if he retired and were left with Brock.

Just opinion, as opposed to others who post stuff like it's fact.

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 04:19 PM
You do realize it is week one and not 15 right?

Brand new line with 1 ****ing starter returning and a brand new offense for everyone.

There will be growing pains, if this happens for 6 straight weeks then by all means whine all you want.

Ziggy
09-14-2015, 04:20 PM
Hey, I realize the Broncos won. If you enjoy paying $20 mil to the best QB on the planet so he can look like Geno Smith, be my guest. The defense was awesome today. At some point, the offense needs to do better than produce field goals. Personally, I liked it better when Manning and a track team forced opponents to have to keep up with their NBA-scoring offense. Today's lacked any downfield vision.

You should ask for a refund.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 04:20 PM
You do realize it is week one and not 15 right?

Brand new line with 1 ****ing starter returning and a brand new offense for everyone.

There will be growing pains, if this happens for 6 straight weeks then by all means whine all you want.

I hope they don't wait 6 weeks if that's the case.

I do believe Manning will improve. Unfortunately, I don't believe he'll last all 16 games, and I don't have confidence in his ability for his body to keep up with his mind.

Timmy!
09-14-2015, 04:24 PM
:pop2:

You guys crack me up.

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 04:25 PM
Hey... so many people on this board were SCREAMING to have Kubiak be our HC.... and this is what I said would happen if he did. He handicpped offensive talent when in Houston, and he will again here. I'm just not surprised, at all.

Brock hitting those 60+ yrs touch downs were boring and offense looked so handicapped.

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 04:26 PM
I hope they don't wait 6 weeks if that's the case.

I do believe Manning will improve. Unfortunately, I don't believe he'll last all 16 games, and I don't have confidence in his ability for his body to keep up with his mind.

Kubiak and Elway have said Manning will get breaks during the season. So if we are up by a decent amount Oz could come in. Or if we are playing the raiders.

foco
09-14-2015, 04:28 PM
There will be growing pains, if this happens for 6 straight weeks then by all means whine all you want.

If this happens for 6 straight weeks, we'll be out of the playoff picture. That's the rub. Playing devil's advocate and this is actually how Peyton is gonna play from now on: at what point does the front office make a move? Our Defense could be something special this year if we stay healthy (huge IF, I know). The last thing we wanna do is waste it with a dreadful offense.

tripp
09-14-2015, 04:36 PM
Been watching NFL Network all afternoon at work, and they just had a reporter out of Dove Valley talking about the mood of the Broncos a day after the game. Owen Daniels had said they've tried implementing so much of the offence so fast to confuse teams with what routes they're going to run. Seems like most of the analysts on the network saying it's a bad marriage between Kubiak's offence and Peyton.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 04:45 PM
It is a bad marriage. Both good but not good together and something or someone will have to say uncle. Like I said above, hopefully Kubiak realizes this, adjusts and lets Manning do his thing. I don't buy that Manning is done, just think this type of offense isn't his style. Hell, even DT looked confused yesterday and CJ who was a monster last year looked terrible! Only 2 bright spots on offense was Sanders and shockingly, Hillman.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 04:46 PM
Manning does need more time. We have to figure that out fast.

tripp
09-14-2015, 04:47 PM
It is a bad marriage. Both good but not good together and something or someone will have to say uncle. Like I said above, hopefully Kubiak realizes this, adjusts and lets Manning do his thing. I don't buy that Manning is done, just think this type of offense isn't his style. Hell, even DT looked confused yesterday and CJ who was a monster last year looked terrible! Only 2 bright spots on offense was Sanders and shockingly, Hillman.

I'm starting to think perhaps we should have tried a bit to keep Adam Gase? Or does that interfere with Kubiak and his system. Seems like there was a great relationship with Gase and Manning.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 04:51 PM
It is a bad marriage. Both good but not good together and something or someone will have to say uncle. Like I said above, hopefully Kubiak realizes this, adjusts and lets Manning do his thing. I don't buy that Manning is done, just think this type of offense isn't his style. Hell, even DT looked confused yesterday and CJ who was a monster last year looked terrible! Only 2 bright spots on offense was Sanders and shockingly, Hillman.

I'm starting to think perhaps we should have tried a bit to keep Adam Gase? Or does that interfere with Kubiak and his system. Seems like there was a great relationship with Gase and Manning.

Gase was part of a record breaking offense. Don't know why we couldn't have just kept him. Maybe Kubiak was worried he wouldn't understand the WCO or ZBS style offense. But I think had we kept Gase he would have been able to implement alot of plays that our offense was comfortable with and would have been an easier transition.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2015, 05:02 PM
DENVER -- First impressions being first and all, the offense the Denver Broncos unveiled in their season-opening win over the Baltimore Ravens may not have been what some expected.

After plenty of conversation about how coach Gary Kubiak would mesh his version of the West Coast offense with what quarterback Peyton Manning has done through the years, the Broncos' initial regular-season outing -- a 19-13 win over the Baltimore Ravens -- looked a lot more like what Manning has done.

The Broncos ran no-huddle, pushed the pace, put Manning in the shotgun and worked out of three- and four-wide receiver sets more than they did out of two-tight end or two-back looks. All attributes they showed in Manning's three previous seasons with the Broncos.

AND


The Broncos lined Manning up in the shotgun 48 times in 76 total snaps on offense -- penalties included -- and through three quarters had already lined up with three or four wide receivers in the formation 43 times. That was not a muscle-up, grind-it-out look that some may have thought the Broncos would use.

full article - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/14921/search-still-on-for-balance-between-old-new-in-broncos-offense

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 05:19 PM
I'm starting to think perhaps we should have tried a bit to keep Adam Gase? Or does that interfere with Kubiak and his system. Seems like there was a great relationship with Gase and Manning.


Gase was part of a record breaking offense. Don't know why we couldn't have just kept him. Maybe Kubiak was worried he wouldn't understand the WCO or ZBS style offense. But I think had we kept Gase he would have been able to implement alot of plays that our offense was comfortable with and would have been an easier transition.

And, we'd have a great regular season and not win a SB?

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 05:37 PM
Wow.

Blame everyone and everything except the guy who touches the ball on every snap.

Makes sense.

Rod Serling welcomes you to the Twilight Zone.

GEM
09-14-2015, 05:40 PM
Jesus ****, now we're wishing for a return to Fox football? This is me bashing my ******* head against my desk. We won...was it pretty? **** no. Will it improve? **** yea. Good ******* Lord, we should call State Patrol and tell them to be on the lookout for banana Broncos fans ready to jump off the ledge. :tsk:

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 05:42 PM
I'm starting to think perhaps we should have tried a bit to keep Adam Gase? Or does that interfere with Kubiak and his system. Seems like there was a great relationship with Gase and Manning.


Gase was part of a record breaking offense. Don't know why we couldn't have just kept him. Maybe Kubiak was worried he wouldn't understand the WCO or ZBS style offense. But I think had we kept Gase he would have been able to implement alot of plays that our offense was comfortable with and would have been an easier transition.

And, we'd have a great regular season and not win a SB?


Defense wins championships. All we had to do was roll with Wade.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2015, 05:53 PM
AND


full article - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/14921/search-still-on-for-balance-between-old-new-in-broncos-offense

I recommend for all who feel Kubes has messed up the offense to read the above article.

AGAIN - from article:


DENVER -- First impressions being first and all, the offense the Denver Broncos unveiled in their season-opening win over the Baltimore Ravens may not have been what some expected.

After plenty of conversation about how coach Gary Kubiak would mesh his version of the West Coast offense with what quarterback Peyton Manning has done through the years, the Broncos' initial regular-season outing -- a 19-13 win over the Baltimore Ravens -- looked a lot more like what Manning has done.

The Broncos ran no-huddle, pushed the pace, put Manning in the shotgun and worked out of three- and four-wide receiver sets more than they did out of two-tight end or two-back looks. All attributes they showed in Manning's three previous seasons with the Broncos.

MOtorboat
09-14-2015, 06:05 PM
I recommend for all who feel Kubes has messed up the offense to read the above article.

AGAIN - from article:

Then the criticism is that they aren't running Kubiak's offense, which is still on Kubiak not Manning.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2015, 06:12 PM
Then the criticism is that they aren't running Kubiak's offense, which is still on Kubiak not Manning.

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion with the title of the thread being "Congrats, Kubiak - You turned Peyton Manning into Matt Schaub"

The game turned out to be a defensive game period. BOTH offenses looked TERRIBLE. I don't think that any kind of offense would have been successful from either team. I am not blaming Manning or anyone else.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 06:21 PM
What I find baffling is that we talked about how the offense was probably going struggle early on and that the defense was probably going have to carry the team. Low and behold that happens and now some want to throw Kubiak and Manning under the bus.

UnderArmour
09-14-2015, 06:31 PM
What I find baffling is that we talked about how the offense was probably going struggle early on and that the defense was probably going have to carry the team. Low and behold that happens and now some want to throw Kubiak and Manning under the bus.

The Kubiak thing is baffling. The Manning thing was always, "If Manning starts the year off like he ended last year, it really might be over this time"... And guess what he did yesterday? He came out, and he played the EXACT way he ended the end of last year. I personally feel like Manning's career is over and he's nothing more than a backup at this point. I know a lot of fans don't want to admit it, but what I saw at the end of last year and this year in the preseason and week 1 is a QB that cannot challenge defenses beyond 15 yards. Hell, multiple times during the game Manning was dumping off to receivers well short of the yardage markers on 3rd and forcing them to make plays. In today's NFL, the QB has to be capable of making plays. I just don't believe in Manning anymore after the AFC Divisional round, and that has NOTHING to do with Kubiak. If Manning can start making plays again, I'll be the one cheering the loudest.

I just think this time it really is over, and it's time for the coaching staff to be ready to pull the plug and give our offense the spark it needs. I don't think this team wins on Thursday with Manning at the helm, barring some insane momentum shifting turnovers from our defense. Manning should start, but he needs to be on alert that he is on a short leash.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 06:38 PM
The Kubiak thing is baffling. The Manning thing was always, "If Manning starts the year off like he ended last year, it really might be over this time"... And guess what he did yesterday? He came out, and he played the EXACT way he ended the end of last year. I personally feel like Manning's career is over and he's nothing more than a backup at this point. I know a lot of fans don't want to admit it, but what I saw at the end of last year and this year in the preseason and week 1 is a QB that cannot challenge defenses beyond 15 yards. Hell, multiple times during the game Manning was dumping off to receivers well short of the yardage markers on 3rd and forcing them to make plays. In today's NFL, the QB has to be capable of making plays. I just don't believe in Manning anymore after the AFC Divisional round, and that has NOTHING to do with Kubiak. If Manning can start making plays again, I'll be the one cheering the loudest.

I just think this time it really is over, and it's time for the coaching staff to be ready to pull the plug and give our offense the spark it needs. I don't think this team wins on Thursday with Manning at the helm, barring some insane momentum shifting turnovers from our defense. Manning should start, but he needs to be on alert that he is on a short leash.

Kubiak and Elway know tons more about quarterbacks than we do. If Kubiak and Elway thought Manning was done they would have said something to him.

Using the preseason and one game into the regular season as part of your argument that Manning is done just don't work for me.

Slick
09-14-2015, 07:07 PM
It's not just pre-season and one game, Tex.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:16 PM
It's not just pre-season and one game, Tex.

I didn't say it was just the pre-season and one game into this season Slick. I said it is part of reason and call b.s. on that. As I said previous Elway and Kubiak know a ton more about quarterbacks than we do.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 07:26 PM
It's not just pre-season and one game, Tex.

I didn't say it was just the pre-season and one game into this season Slick. I said it is part of reason and call b.s. on that. As I said previous Elway and Kubiak know a ton more about quarterbacks than we do.

I think Manning knows more about Manning then both Kubiak and Elway know about Manning. They are trying to make him this mobile, bootleg, under center type of QB and that's not at all Manning.

You HAD to of seen this coming.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 07:34 PM
I think Manning knows more about Manning then both Kubiak and Elway know about Manning. They are trying to make him this mobile, bootleg, under center type of QB and that's not at all Manning.

You HAD to of seen this coming.

No they're not trying make him a mobile, bootleg under center type quarterback. Manning spent a huge portion of career under center. It's nothing knew to him Den.

tripp
09-14-2015, 07:43 PM
I think Manning knows more about Manning then both Kubiak and Elway know about Manning. They are trying to make him this mobile, bootleg, under center type of QB and that's not at all Manning.

You HAD to of seen this coming.


No they're not trying make him a mobile, bootleg under center type quarterback. Manning spent a huge portion of career under center. It's nothing knew to him Den.


I honestly think they wanted to try it once, just to see how successful it was. I didn't see them run that play again that game.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 07:45 PM
The offense has been going downhill since the Rams game last year, the only difference is it doesn't have a running game to bail them out

People saying there are no worries, were probably saying the same thing last year when Denver's offense limped into the playoffs on the one leg(s) of CJ Anderson and then got beat the hell up by Indianapolis.

How did that work out for those people?

Slick
09-14-2015, 07:54 PM
I didn't say it was just the pre-season and one game into this season Slick. I said it is part of reason and call b.s. on that. As I said previous Elway and Kubiak know a ton more about quarterbacks than we do.

Well they don't post here so what do we do now?

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2015, 08:06 PM
I think Manning knows more about Manning then both Kubiak and Elway know about Manning. They are trying to make him this mobile, bootleg, under center type of QB and that's not at all Manning.

You HAD to of seen this coming.

Please read the article I have posted twice. It states that everyone thought we would see Kubiak's offense, but what we saw yesterday was what Manning has ran while he has been here in Denver.

http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-bronc...roncos-offense

Again, my opinion - yesterday was a total defensive game from both teams.

SR
09-14-2015, 08:08 PM
Jesus ****, now we're wishing for a return to Fox football? This is me bashing my ******* head against my desk. We won...was it pretty? **** no. Will it improve? **** yea. Good ******* Lord, we should call State Patrol and tell them to be on the lookout for banana Broncos fans ready to jump off the ledge. :tsk:

Look here everyone, it's the voice of reason.

SR
09-14-2015, 08:09 PM
I recommend for all who feel Kubes has messed up the offense to read the above article. AGAIN - from article:
And?

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 08:13 PM
Please read the article I have posted twice. It states that everyone thought we would see Kubiak's offense, but what we saw yesterday was what Manning has ran while he has been here in Denver.

http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-bronc...roncos-offense

Again, my opinion - yesterday was a total defensive game from both teams.


I don't understand - are you saying because yesterday was a total defensive gameplan, that the coaching staff just said "f--- the offense"?

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 08:15 PM
Fox sucks.

We didn't win those kind of games like yesterday under Fox for the last 3 years.

Did you guys here his and his teams press conference after the Packers? They were basically happy they were able to make it a game with them. That's why that dude will never win a SuperBowl.

tripp
09-14-2015, 08:23 PM
The offense has been going downhill since the Rams game last year, the only difference is it doesn't have a running game to bail them out

People saying there are no worries, were probably saying the same thing last year when Denver's offense limped into the playoffs on the one leg(s) of CJ Anderson and then got beat the hell up by Indianapolis.

How did that work out for those people?


Don't forget we decided to change the game plan up last year mid way through to make us a more balanced offence by running the ball more frequently. That, and Peyton's thigh didn't exactly help us look like the same team that posted up 30+ pts every game.

Slick
09-14-2015, 08:27 PM
And?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Carol is encouraging DenBronx to read the article because his assesment if the gameplan/personel is way off.

SR
09-14-2015, 08:33 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Carol is encouraging DenBronx to read the article because his assesment if the gameplan/personel is way off.

I think it IS on Kubiak. Yeah, Peyton had some fainting goat issues and some accuracy issues but the play calling from play one was stupid. It wasn't even bad. It was stupid. Like John Fox stupid. Kubiak is the head coach. The onus is on him.

jhildebrand
09-14-2015, 08:47 PM
Where was Kubiak on January 11, 2015? :confused: Was he secretly turning Manning into Schaub then, too? What about 3 weeks earlier on the road in Cinciannati? From where I sit, Manning was already beginning to show some serious decline and it was independent of Kubiak.

I couldn't be happier! Hear me about before you assume to know what I mean. I couldn't be happier about yesterday's game because the team shows it understands "kicking and screaming!" I am happy because "this game" last year was the physical ass whoopin the team took on the road in St. Louis. In less than a year, and a shorter off season, Kubiak with the help of Wade has shown this team can be nasty and physical. I am happy because for the first Sunday in a long time all of the talk, and play, surrounding the Broncos wasn't about Manning and his records! Lastly, I am happy because this team has shown a penchant since Manning has been here to fold things up and go home when things didn't go well. There have been times we would see this team lose a game they shouldn't and hear players speak something along the lines of "Manning can't do it all by himself." Yesterday, it wasn't about Manning. Things weren't always going well. It was about the team and the team came away with a W after battling and battling. I will take that on ANY Sunday!

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 09:24 PM
Jesus ****, now we're wishing for a return to Fox football? This is me bashing my ******* head against my desk. We won...was it pretty? **** no. Will it improve? **** yea. Good ******* Lord, we should call State Patrol and tell them to be on the lookout for banana Broncos fans ready to jump off the ledge. :tsk:


No one give GEM scissors tonight.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 09:37 PM
Big Al tearing Kubiak's playcalling apart. Good segment. I agree with him.

Slick
09-14-2015, 09:37 PM
I think it IS on Kubiak. Yeah, Peyton had some fainting goat issues and some accuracy issues but the play calling from play one was stupid. It wasn't even bad. It was stupid. Like John Fox stupid. Kubiak is the head coach. The onus is on him.

You're crazy. Plays were there. Someone just didn't execute.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 09:38 PM
Big Al tearing Kubiak's playcalling apart. Good segment. I agree with him.

Big Al....how can you listen to that dude?

tripp
09-14-2015, 09:46 PM
Anyone catch this today? Carol?

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 3m3 minutes ago
Peyton Manning listed on the Broncos practice/injury report today (back). He had full participation in the jog through.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2015, 09:51 PM
Big Al....how can you listen to that dude?

He knows more about the game than any of us do here.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 09:51 PM
Anyone catch this today? Carol?

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 3m3 minutes ago
Peyton Manning listed on the Broncos practice/injury report today (back). He had full participation in the jog through.

It can't be that serious or he wouldn't be jogging.

SR
09-14-2015, 09:57 PM
You're crazy. Plays were there. Someone just didn't execute.

Yeah they were, sometimes. Otherwise it was a bullshit called game.

7DnBrnc53
09-14-2015, 09:59 PM
Fox sucks.

We didn't win those kind of games like yesterday under Fox for the last 3 years.

Did you guys here his and his teams press conference after the Packers? They were basically happy they were able to make it a game with them. That's why that dude will never win a SuperBowl.

Why am I not surprised? I am so thankful that him and Gase are gone. I think that the offense will be more efficient as the season goes on, and our D could be approaching 76 Steeler and 85 Bear territory.

tripp
09-14-2015, 10:54 PM
Why am I not surprised? I am so thankful that him and Gase are gone. I think that the offense will be more efficient as the season goes on, and our D could be approaching 76 Steeler and 85 Bear territory.

They will if they stay healthy. I have some concern for D-Ware though, looked a bit winded on a few occasions, but they were running rampant on B-more's O-line, so I won't read into too much of that.

tubby
09-14-2015, 10:58 PM
You're crazy. Plays were there. Someone just didn't execute.

Yeah they were, sometimes. Otherwise it was a bullshit called game.
That 17 play 11 min drive was pretty badass. :cool:

NightTerror218
09-14-2015, 11:45 PM
That 17 play,11 min drive, was pretty badass. :cool:

That is how kubiaks offense works. The hodge podge Manning -Kubiak offense was not very effective.

Carol posted article that most of the game was 3 or 4 WR sets, just like Manning old systems.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 12:28 AM
If Manning gets hit like that too many more times then he could be out for good. With constant finger numbness,He's very likely one hard hit away from his entire arm going noodle. People with that kind of surgery dont normally play violent sports like tackle football. Either they shore up the holes in the oline or the manning era is going to end unceremoniously and with ill humor

dogfish
09-15-2015, 03:10 AM
Would have loved to see us keep Fox, Gase, Julius and Thomas.

oh man, you miss JT?

how many catches did that dude have on sunday?

MOtorboat
09-15-2015, 03:39 AM
oh man, you miss JT?

how many catches did that dude have on sunday?

Two less than healthy tight ends for Denver. The position was shit on Sunday, don't deny that.

DenBronx
09-15-2015, 03:58 AM
Would have loved to see us keep Fox, Gase, Julius and Thomas.

oh man, you miss JT?

how many catches did that dude have on sunday?

That's irrelevant, he might not have got injured here

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 06:46 AM
That is how kubiaks offense works. The hodge podge Manning -Kubiak offense was not very effective.

Carol posted article that most of the game was 3 or 4 WR sets, just like Manning old systems.

Also Manning was in shot gun 60% of the time.

EastCoastBronco
09-15-2015, 07:14 AM
A new offensive scheme will always take time to implement.
Add to that a new O line and it will take a bit longer.
I'm very encouraged that our defence is playing at the level it is from day one.
They will carry us through until the O starts firing on all cylinders.
If our guys stay relatively healthy, this team will be rolling like a train when it counts.

BTW, my biggest take away from Sunday was the fact that this team didn't give up when they got down.
I think that attitude is gone.

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 08:35 AM
A new offensive scheme will always take time to implement.
Add to that a new O line and it will take a bit longer.
I'm very encouraged that our defence is playing at the level it is from day one.
They will carry us through until the O starts firing on all cylinders.
If our guys stay relatively healthy, this team will be rolling like a train when it counts.

BTW, my biggest take away from Sunday was the fact that this team didn't give up when they got down.
I think that attitude is gone.

Agreed. The Ravens are big physical team that likes to smack their opponents in the mouth yet Denver didn't back down. They were scrappy.

Valar Morghulis
09-15-2015, 10:12 AM
I get we all have opinions, but I cannot believe people are wanting the return of Fox and gase.

Jesus.

If we presume gase masterminded the 2013 season I could see a case for him, but Fox, he had to go.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-15-2015, 10:21 AM
I get we all have opinions, but I cannot believe people are wanting the return of Fox and gase.

Jesus.

If we presume gase masterminded the 2013 season I could see a case for him, but Fox, he had to go.

Yeah, let's bring back the guy that was looking for a job before the divisional playoff game

Ravage!!!
09-15-2015, 10:25 AM
oh man, you miss JT?

how many catches did that dude have on sunday?

dog... seriously. This offense absolutely misses JT....terribly.

We lost both our slot and our dynamic TE. NO ONE is threatening their LBs and middle of the field. JT is a nightmare for defenses to deal with, and we have none of that.

Northman
09-15-2015, 10:37 AM
JT isnt a nightmare for anyone if he cant stay on the field.

In other news though Jacob Tamme had 3 catches for 19 yds last night for the Falcons.

Buff
09-15-2015, 11:09 AM
JT isnt a nightmare for anyone if he cant stay on the field.

In other news though Jacob Tamme had 3 catches for 19 yds last night for the Falcons.

And looked slow and overmatched.

Hawgdriver
09-15-2015, 11:09 AM
While i agree that Manning looked like fainting goat out there i disagree that it had to do with Kubes. For starters we have a very young and inexperienced Oline. Secondly, even when there was time Manning was just off much like the end of the last year when Kubiak wasnt even the coach of the team. And i dont think you will find anyone who had a problem with the team scoring 35 points a game but you will find people who hated the fact that the other teams would score 34 points a game. Sadly when trying to make the defense better you will lose some other weapons on other areas of the team. The only thing i would agree with you about this is that i dont think Manning is actually suited for this style of offense. On the one rollout that he had he totally missed a wide open receiver but thats of a little consequence as he missed on some other passes while throwing from the pocket. Personally with the way our defense played yesterday i would much rather see Oz in there because he can at least move around better and has the better arm. People hate that i say that but even if we had Andrew Luck behind Manning i would want him to start over Manning. I just think at this stage Manning's age is catching up with him. Still a lot of football left so maybe he gets better but im not really holding my breath. Either way, i dont blame Kubiak for how Manning played yesterday.

Outstanding post. You didn't flame. You acknowledged the merits. You offered great counterarguments. Posts like this keep this place a class act! :werd:

chazoe60
09-15-2015, 11:11 AM
oh man, you miss JT?

how many catches did that dude have on sunday?

None, but he actually had a career high in blocks made.

Dzone
09-15-2015, 11:20 AM
JT isnt a nightmare for anyone if he cant stay on the field.

In other news though Jacob Tamme had 3 catches for 19 yds last night for the Falcons.\
Orange Julius isnt suited to tackle football. He would be great at flag football.
Btw, wouldnt a guy with the nickname "Orange Julius" be able to make endorsement millions by living in florida?

ShaneFalco
09-15-2015, 11:27 AM
so peyton has completed 3 of his last 15 passes over 15 yards. Everyone told me this was the o line. I tend to think it is a bit more then the line.

jhildebrand
09-15-2015, 12:57 PM
JT isn't here because the FO (read Elway) felt he was soft. JT also had an amazing side career as a magician. He disappeared when the lights were bright or the opponent was physical.

tomjonesrocks
09-15-2015, 01:22 PM
JT isn't here because the FO (read Elway) felt he was soft. JT also had an amazing side career as a magician. He disappeared when the lights were bright or the opponent was physical.

JT isn't here because he didn't take Elway's contract offer. We couldn't keep him under market value (a la Chris Harris) so he's gone.

The soft thing is out of hand.

Northman
09-15-2015, 03:08 PM
Outstanding post. You didn't flame. You acknowledged the merits. You offered great counterarguments. Posts like this keep this place a class act! :werd:

Its a dirty job but someone has to keep this place running. :)

Cugel
09-15-2015, 04:45 PM
so peyton has completed 3 of his last 15 passes over 15 yards. Everyone told me this was the o line. I tend to think it is a bit more then the line.

The fact that you still have a picture of Tim Tebow up 4 years after he last played for the Broncos and even after he washed out of the NFL for the 2nd and final time, completely invalidates anything you may have to say, ever.

We now know where you are coming from: the ranks of the bitter Tebow dead-enders, who have been waiting for 4 long years to say "I told you so! Manning is washed up! We should have kept Tim Tebow!" :rolleyes:

Cugel
09-15-2015, 04:53 PM
JT isn't here because he didn't take Elway's contract offer. We couldn't keep him under market value (a la Chris Harris) so he's gone.

The soft thing is out of hand.

According to multiple reports from "Broncos insiders" like Mike Klis, etc. as reported on the radio, after Thomas rejected the Broncos offer in the preseason of 2014, they decided to cut ties with him. That conviction that he wasn't worth the money was solidified into a certainty when the Broncos felt that he was "soft" in refusing to play hurt late in the season. They felt he was protecting himself as a pending FA, and not being willing to get in there and help the team.

But, realistically, once Fox was fired and Kubiak hired, it was inevitable that JT would go. He doesn't like to block, and in Kubiak's system the TE absolutely MUST be willing to put his head in there and be a superior blocker. It's nice if the TE can catch passes, but first and foremost he has to be able to block in the run game.

And JT never did that because he didn't like it. He likes going out in pass patterns and catching balls. He didn't even play football in high-school. He never learned basic fundamental football skills - he was a basketball player. He is great at things based on basketball skills, like posting up a defender and grabbing a jump ball.

But, he absolutely sucked at some basic football things, particularly in blocking a blitzing LB or DE.

Cugel
09-15-2015, 05:03 PM
Why am I not surprised? I am so thankful that him and Gase are gone. I think that the offense will be more efficient as the season goes on, and our D could be approaching 76 Steeler and 85 Bear territory.

The biggest plus for the Broncos this season has been the addition of Wade Phillips and losing that dog-turd Jack Del Rio. My god!

Have you stopped to realize that the Broncos defense features almost entirely the same players that played so soft last season that they had the #18 scoring defense in the NFL. After watching the Seahawks opener where they gave up 34 points to the Rams and allowed journeyman QB Nick Foles to post a QB rating of 115 on them, I'd say Denver is likely to be the #1 scoring defense in the NFL this year.

And it's not like they went out and signed a bunch of FA stars on defense. They lost a couple of starting players in Moore and Pot-roast and didn't sign any. Yet they are incredibly improved - mostly it's ATTITUDE. They are going after teams and are hyper aggressive and physically dominating.

Wade Phillips has this defense dialed in like nothing I've seen in Denver since the 1970s.

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 06:01 PM
We just drafted a new TE he is on IR though.

NightTerror218
09-15-2015, 06:03 PM
According to multiple reports from "Broncos insiders" like Mike Klis, etc. as reported on the radio, after Thomas rejected the Broncos offer in the preseason of 2014, they decided to cut ties with him. That conviction that he wasn't worth the money was solidified into a certainty when the Broncos felt that he was "soft" in refusing to play hurt late in the season. They felt he was protecting himself as a pending FA, and not being willing to get in there and help the team.

But, realistically, once Fox was fired and Kubiak hired, it was inevitable that JT would go. He doesn't like to block, and in Kubiak's system the TE absolutely MUST be willing to put his head in there and be a superior blocker. It's nice if the TE can catch passes, but first and foremost he has to be able to block in the run game.

And JT never did that because he didn't like it. He likes going out in pass patterns and catching balls. He didn't even play football in high-school. He never learned basic fundamental football skills - he was a basketball player. He is great at things based on basketball skills, like posting up a defender and grabbing a jump ball.

But, he absolutely sucked at some basic football things, particularly in blocking a blitzing LB or DE.

I was done with JT when he was interviewed and said he does not have a passion for football and is basically in it for the money and that is it.

TXBRONC
09-15-2015, 06:07 PM
We just drafted a new TE he is on IR though.

I was really hoping to see him play.

tomjonesrocks
09-15-2015, 06:23 PM
I was done with JT when he was interviewed and said he does not have a passion for football and is basically in it for the money and that is it.

He was interviewed and said that. Link?

Spano speculated that and surmised teammates felt that about him. JT never was quoted as saying it.

Anyway whatever, I don't blame them for not paying 8M but now we have a struggling Manning throwing 40 times but only 3 times to TEs.

So basically we went from an elite receiving TE to no TE.

tripp
09-15-2015, 07:34 PM
Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 50m50 minutes ago
Late 2nd qtr, forced one to Norwood over the middle. Had Bubba wide open in the endzone. Read it wrong.


Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 50m50 minutes ago
That play-action boot was a great call. Three guys open. Simply didn't plant his feet. Had Casey for a TD.


Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 51m51 minutes ago
I just watched the entire game on All22. PM hasn't lost his fastball. Arm is not the issue. Reading the defense was an issue.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 50m50 minutes ago
And yes, he can take a hit. Took several big hits upon releasing the ball. That's not the issue either. Just had a bad day reading.


This is pretty interesting...

Cj Anderson ‏@cjandersonb22 5s5 seconds ago
Don't blame the o-line blame me

DenBronx
09-15-2015, 09:13 PM
Totally off topic but that Mariota kid definitely has a fast ball. His release time is wicked good and he is also accurate. He will make it in the NFL. It's good to see the next generation of superstars and can't wait to see Brock get his chance. For now, he sits back and learns like Rogers did.

Simple Jaded
09-15-2015, 09:39 PM
I especially hate the part of Kubiak's system where they run the ball, I mean wtff, dude? This isn't 1990.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-15-2015, 09:40 PM
I especially hate the part of Kubiak's system where they run the ball, I mean wtff, dude? This isn't 1990.

On top of that they have the nerve to run the clock down and keep the defense fresh. ...bastirds.

BroncoWave
09-15-2015, 09:41 PM
I especially hate the part of Kubiak's system where they run the ball, I mean wtff, dude? This isn't 1990.

This post legit made me laugh!

Simple Jaded
09-15-2015, 09:45 PM
He was interviewed and said that. Link?

Spano speculated that and surmised teammates felt that about him. JT never was quoted as saying it.

Anyway whatever, I don't blame them for not paying 8M but now we have a struggling Manning throwing 40 times but only 3 times to TEs.

So basically we went from an elite receiving TE to no TE.
Yeah, well.

:snapsfingers:

tomjonesrocks
09-15-2015, 11:47 PM
Yeah, well. :snapsfingers:

Unsure what that means but the point was any suggestion what have now is an addition by subtraction is a reach bordering on total delusion.

jhildebrand
09-15-2015, 11:51 PM
JT isn't here because he didn't take Elway's contract offer. We couldn't keep him under market value (a la Chris Harris) so he's gone.

The soft thing is out of hand.

What did Elway offer him? :confused: Do you know? Did you follow the negotiations? Do you recall JT's dad getting into it? It was leaked to multiple outlets multiple times that the word the FO used or thought of when it came to JT rhymed with foosy. They made no real attempt in keeping him here.

Elway on the other hand showed what he thought of Harris. He began contract talks IN SEASON. Not off season. Fortunately Chris took a well below market offer something both sides acknowledged.

NightTerror218
09-16-2015, 12:00 AM
What did Elway offer him? :confused: Do you know? Did you follow the negotiations? Do you recall JT's dad getting into it? It was leaked to multiple outlets multiple times that the word the FO used or thought of when it came to JT rhymed with foosy. They made no real attempt in keeping him here.

Elway on the other hand showed what he thought of Harris. He began contract talks IN SEASON. Not off season. Fortunately Chris took a well below market offer something both sides acknowledged.

I believe both Thomas got offers at same tome. I think JT was offered something like 3rd highest paid TE money but his agent felt he could get more and Elway never offered a second contract offer.

tomjonesrocks
09-16-2015, 12:02 AM
What did Elway offer him? :confused: Do you know? Did you follow the negotiations? Do you recall JT's dad getting into it? It was leaked to multiple outlets multiple times that the word the FO used or thought of when it came to JT rhymed with foosy. They made no real attempt in keeping him here. Elway on the other hand showed what he thought of Harris. He began contract talks IN SEASON. Not off season. Fortunately Chris took a well below market offer something both sides acknowledged.

At the beginning of 2015 there were contract talks and they broke down over conditional guarantees. That's not "never made an offer". That's getting into very specific contract details.

Because they never released the exact numbers we don't know what was there but it was quite a coincidence once Elway's knew he couldn't get JT on a hometown Harris-like deal we had smear stories emerging.

Timmy!
09-16-2015, 04:04 AM
I especially hate the part of Kubiak's system where they run the ball, I mean wtff, dude? This isn't 1990.

The only issue I have here is we actually didn't sell out to the run until late. In the 3rd quarter (where shit went south)we didn't run or even really try. Is that Kubes, or Peyton? I'm not sure. What I do know, is the last drive (longest time consuming Bronco drive since 1994 BTW) killed 10+ minutes with 15+ plays....and was RUN heavy. Yet, overall we finished around 70/30 pass/vs run.....and had way more snaps from the gun than under center. I honestly think we are trying to be the jack of all trades on offense, but end up master of none. Commit one way or the other plz, its too early to try to be all things yet.

GEM
09-16-2015, 07:08 AM
At the beginning of 2015 there were contract talks and they broke down over conditional guarantees. That's not "never made an offer". That's getting into very specific contract details.

Because they never released the exact numbers we don't know what was there but it was quite a coincidence once Elway's knew he couldn't get JT on a hometown Harris-like deal we had smear stories emerging.

Funny though how much truth is in the smear stories.

Of course we miss his primadonna bs and his daddy issues too. I miss the play on the field...I mean when he was able to be on the field, of course.

TXBRONC
09-16-2015, 08:22 AM
Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 50m50 minutes ago
Late 2nd qtr, forced one to Norwood over the middle. Had Bubba wide open in the endzone. Read it wrong.

They showed that on the replay and Manning had Sanders open twice for long touchdowns and ended up overthrowing the ball.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-16-2015, 08:42 AM
Manning is Schaub?!

Does he mouth breath on the sideline too?

TXBRONC
09-16-2015, 08:43 AM
Well they don't post here so what do we do now?

Wait for them too. :whoknows:

GEM
09-16-2015, 10:21 AM
Manning is Schaub?!

Does he mouth breath on the sideline too?

Maybe Joe Mays ate his ear?

Ravage!!!
09-16-2015, 10:50 AM
I believe both Thomas got offers at same tome. I think JT was offered something like 3rd highest paid TE money but his agent felt he could get more and Elway never offered a second contract offer.

I believe the Broncos offered him a 3 year contract, but then wanted him to play his final year of his current contract, first...thus making it a four year deal and of course..... no guaranteed contracts. So the Broncos tried to get away with a steal, and JT didn't bite on it. I don't blame him,and we, are less of an offense for it.

tomjonesrocks
09-16-2015, 11:08 AM
I believe the Broncos offered him a 3 year contract, but then wanted him to play his final year of his current contract, first...thus making it a four year deal and of course..... no guaranteed contracts. So the Broncos tried to get away with a steal, and JT didn't bite on it. I don't blame him,and we, are less of an offense for it.

Exactly. We can disperse with the we didn't sign him because he's a p***y.

Northman
09-16-2015, 12:15 PM
I believe the Broncos offered him a 3 year contract, but then wanted him to play his final year of his current contract, first...thus making it a four year deal and of course..... no guaranteed contracts. So the Broncos tried to get away with a steal, and JT didn't bite on it. I don't blame him,and we, are less of an offense for it.

Give me a break. Denver didnt try to get away with a steal thats just ******* complete horseshit. Denver knew that he had injury concerns and that his blocking was less than stellar so they simply didnt want to overpay. Get the **** out with that false bullshit dude. lmao

GEM
09-16-2015, 12:46 PM
His latest injury is a pulled vagina muscle.

Simple Jaded
09-16-2015, 01:00 PM
I don't think the Broncos thought JT was worth the money he wanted, my guess is that's because he's soft as baby shit.

It's reasonable to conclude that the Broncos didn't resign him because he's a massive, massive *****.

The Broncos may never find a TE to replace his receiving, though, oh well. A team wanting to get away from being soft and enstill a "kicking and screaming" mentality can't reward a candyass like JT, he's the epitome of soft.

TXBRONC
09-16-2015, 01:05 PM
I don't think the Broncos thought JT was worth the money he wanted, my guess is that's because he's soft as baby shit.

It's reasonable to conclude that the Broncos didn't resign him because he's a massive, massive *****.

The Broncos may never find a TE to replace his receiving, though, oh well. A team wanting to get away from being soft and enstill a "kicking and screaming" mentality can't reward a candyass like JT, he's the epitome of soft.

I'm not really sure how you feel about J. Thomas Jaded.

Simple Jaded
09-16-2015, 01:11 PM
I'm not really sure how you feel about J. Thomas Jaded.

Superlative football player! Top notch, top notch!

weazel
09-16-2015, 05:06 PM
WTF was that??? Four sacks. A pick 6. Misdirected throws. Tossing for three yards on 3rd-and-8. This looks like the Texans offense minus Andre Johnson. You might as well announce to the opposition that you are running left on first down every series because that's the play call. I know it's coming. By November, even the peanut vendors at Mile High will know it's coming. The same uber-predictable slop I got tired of watching in Houston.

I never did understand what was wrong with scoring 35 points a game but some of you had a major problem with that. Wade Phillips may save Kubiak's job this year but it will either be Manning's last or Kubiak's last. At least I hope so. Today was terrible. Your best offensive player was McManus??? Really??

There's no way a Peyton Manning-run offense should look this pitiful.

nah... age and injury turned Manning into Schaub

Timmy!
09-16-2015, 05:20 PM
Didn't you guys see how awesome Julius looked on Sunday? Our bench is a lonely place without him.

Ravage!!!
09-16-2015, 06:25 PM
Give me a break. Denver didnt try to get away with a steal thats just ******* complete horseshit. Denver knew that he had injury concerns and that his blocking was less than stellar so they simply didnt want to overpay. Get the **** out with that false bullshit dude. lmao

No its not. JT had one year on his contract and offered hm a 3 year deal before the season, BUT, wanted him to play for the original contract amount bfore applying the NEW contract. That isn't a 3 year deal, that's a 4 year deal, and when you added it all together over four years, it meant he was being paid as like the 14th TE in the NFL. The FALSE Bullshit is you believing that John didn't try to get JT for a CHEAP deal, when he obviously did. Where have you EVER EVER heard of a contract like that being given? We'll give you a 3 year deal, but only AFTER this year? That's complete junk and its why it wasn't accepted. Sorry you don't want to believe the obvious.

Shazam!
09-16-2015, 06:32 PM
I believe both Thomas got offers at same tome. I think JT was offered something like 3rd highest paid TE money but his agent felt he could get more and Elway never offered a second contract offer.

I believe the Broncos offered him a 3 year contract, but then wanted him to play his final year of his current contract, first...thus making it a four year deal and of course..... no guaranteed contracts. So the Broncos tried to get away with a steal, and JT didn't bite on it. I don't blame him,and we, are less of an offense for it.

Loss of JT has nothing to do with the Broncos going backwards on offense. I see very little to think that when you have an OLine of rookies.

Ravage!!!
09-16-2015, 06:37 PM
Loss of JT has nothing to do with the Broncos going backwards on offense. I see very little to think that when you have an OLine of rookies.

Its a matter of forcing the defense to be accountable. They don't have to worry about our TEs as they are. But they absolutely had to game plan and be concerned with JT. He was a defenses nightmare to deal with. That's a big advantage to an offense when they have to consider using a corner on you TE or bracketing with a safety as opposed to simply knowing your LB can cover them 1-on-1. That difference allows defenses to stack the box, which then leads to blitzes coming from anywhere, thus, harder on a young OL to deal.

The Patriots had an OL FULL of Rookies.... did you see how they were able to handle that problem? What position do they have that might have helped that situation out?

Dzone
09-16-2015, 10:17 PM
Brady played great against pittsburgh with 3 rookies on his oline. Our line prob has more experience than new englands.

Cugel
09-16-2015, 10:42 PM
I believe the Broncos offered him a 3 year contract, but then wanted him to play his final year of his current contract, first...thus making it a four year deal and of course..... no guaranteed contracts. So the Broncos tried to get away with a steal, and JT didn't bite on it. I don't blame him,and we, are less of an offense for it.

JT said when he left Denver that the final offer was the one they Broncos made in the preseason. That was when Fox was still the coach. When Kubiak came to town everything changed. In his system, the TE MUST be able to block in the run game.

Joel Dreesen said the same thing this week on the radio. So did both Chad Brown and Alfred Williams. Remember that J.T. was a college basketball player.

Now, try and imagine any other sport where you pick up the game for the first time in college and expect to play in the big leagues? Could anybody, no matter how athletic, hope to start playing baseball for the first time at 20 and then a few years later you're in the majors, and getting a hit off Clayton Kershaw? Totally impossible.

So, it's inevitable that there are basic football things that Julius Thomas never learned how to do, that other players learn in high school, like how to block. He had to learn everything in the pros, and he never LIKED blocking, so he never became any good at it.

He loves running down the field, boxing out the DB and then going up for a jump ball - all things he learned to do playing basketball. That's why he was so effective in the red zone. Defenders couldn't "out-rebound" him. But, for a TE, "blocking is all about 'want-to.' You have to want to put your hat in there and beat a guy." -- Alfred Williams said that. They got rid of Julius because he never wanted to block.

Cugel
09-16-2015, 10:46 PM
Brady played great against pittsburgh with 3 rookies on his oline. Our line prob has more experience than new englands.

Brady's OL is running the same system as they have for the last 10 years. Denver is instituting a completely new system. NOBODY on that OL has ever played together with ANYBODY else on the rest of the line. Vasquez is the only player out of the entire starting 5 who was even on the active game day roster last year. And Sambrailo, Mathis, Garcia and Ryan Harris weren't even on the team at all.

Ravage!!!
09-17-2015, 09:12 AM
JT said when he left Denver that the final offer was the one they Broncos made in the preseason. That was when Fox was still the coach. When Kubiak came to town everything changed. In his system, the TE MUST be able to block in the run game.

Joel Dreesen said the same thing this week on the radio. So did both Chad Brown and Alfred Williams. Remember that J.T. was a college basketball player.

Now, try and imagine any other sport where you pick up the game for the first time in college and expect to play in the big leagues? Could anybody, no matter how athletic, hope to start playing baseball for the first time at 20 and then a few years later you're in the majors, and getting a hit off Clayton Kershaw? Totally impossible.

So, it's inevitable that there are basic football things that Julius Thomas never learned how to do, that other players learn in high school, like how to block. He had to learn everything in the pros, and he never LIKED blocking, so he never became any good at it.

He loves running down the field, boxing out the DB and then going up for a jump ball - all things he learned to do playing basketball. That's why he was so effective in the red zone. Defenders couldn't "out-rebound" him. But, for a TE, "blocking is all about 'want-to.' You have to want to put your hat in there and beat a guy." -- Alfred Williams said that. They got rid of Julius because he never wanted to block.

Make up your mind. They made him the same offer, or they "got rid of him?" Sounds like you want to say one thing, but want to believe another. Talking from both sides as if it were fact. Using opinions and making them into facts, doesn't make them facts.

Keep talking about how the system doesn't work with JT allllllll you want if that makes you feel better about losing that kind of dynamic weapon. But the truth is, our offense is much much weaker and much less potent without him in Orange and Blue.

Buff
09-17-2015, 11:05 AM
I think a person can acknowledge that we are worse off without Julius, while also acknowledging that he wasn't worth the $$. We tried to get him at a reasonable price - he correctly held out for more money - then he proceeded to milk his ankle injury in a contract year and soured the entire organization on him to the point that they had zero contact with him after the season.

Northman
09-17-2015, 11:20 AM
i think a person can acknowledge that we are worse off without julius, while also acknowledging that he wasn't worth the $$. We tried to get him at a reasonable price - he correctly held out for more money - then he proceeded to milk his ankle injury in a contract year and soured the entire organization on him to the point that they had zero contact with him after the season.

boom.

Valar Morghulis
09-17-2015, 11:25 AM
boom.

ka-boom

slim
09-17-2015, 11:31 AM
I knew Kubes was great, but I didn't realize he was father time.

TXBRONC
09-17-2015, 11:46 AM
I knew Kubes was great, but I didn't realize he was father time.

Manning certainly isn't the same quarterback he was ten years ago let alone even two years ago but at this point I still think the struggles have more to do with needing time to gel. At some point things have to start clicking and if they don't then maybe Manning really can't do it anymore.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-17-2015, 12:40 PM
I think a person can acknowledge that we are worse off without Julius, while also acknowledging that he wasn't worth the $$. We tried to get him at a reasonable price - he correctly held out for more money - then he proceeded to milk his ankle injury in a contract year and soured the entire organization on him to the point that they had zero contact with him after the season.

I think we're worst off in the passing game, but better off in the running game.

I think his attitude also affected morale

weazel
09-17-2015, 01:31 PM
I think the problem on offense is they call the same play too many times. I seen the same single set screen with fainting goat at least 10 times last week, maybe it would work better if they got rid of the fainting goat part of it.

SR
09-17-2015, 08:34 PM
Yep

jhildebrand
09-17-2015, 11:11 PM
Made plays when it mattered. Still wanna call him Schaub???? :confused:

silkamilkamonico
09-17-2015, 11:44 PM
Let Peyton Peyton

Free Peyton Manning!

ShaneFalco
09-18-2015, 12:18 AM
at least kubiak adjusts the offense when its not working. not that bad of a coach.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-18-2015, 12:19 AM
at least kubiak adjusts the offense when its not working. not that bad of a coach.
Exactly

Dean
09-18-2015, 08:33 AM
That is a lot more difficult to do than most people imagine. What you (and the O-coordinator) are doing and calling has worked for years. You are sure that the game is about to turn around on the next play call or two. Many coaches have a set of criteria they develop to decide when enough is enough but it is not an easy decision to make. My compliments to Kubiac.


at least kubiak adjusts the offense when its not working. not that bad of a coach.

TXBRONC
09-18-2015, 08:36 AM
That is a lot more difficult to do than most people imagine. What you (and the O-coordinator) are doing and calling has worked for years. You are sure that the game is about to turn around on the next play call or two. Many coaches have a set of criteria they develop to decide when enough is enough but it is not an easy decision to make. My compliments to Kubiac.

I believe they will get it worked out. Manning may not be the man to run the offense the way Kubiak envisions it.

Ravage!!!
09-18-2015, 10:32 AM
I think Kubiak just needs to step away and let manning run the offense. It's the best chance we have.

Shazam!
09-18-2015, 10:34 AM
Paging Adam Gase, need your 2014 Playbook.

NightTerror218
09-18-2015, 01:45 PM
I think Kubiak just needs to step away and let manning run the offense. It's the best chance we have.

No way, a good defense shuts down manning. Look at the plays off losses. Look at the SB loss. Some defenses have Manning number. Just give the OL some growing pains. Let them learn how to do system geez. FFS

Ravage!!!
09-18-2015, 01:46 PM
No way, a good defense shuts down manning. Look at the plays off losses. Look at the SB loss. Some defenses have Manning number. Just give the OL some growing pains. Let them learn how to do system geez. FFS

Ok... what is Kubiaks playoff record as an HC again?

G_Money
09-18-2015, 02:05 PM
No way, a good defense shuts down manning. Look at the plays off losses. Look at the SB loss. Some defenses have Manning number. Just give the OL some growing pains. Let them learn how to do system geez. FFS

Through 2 games, 100% of defenses have had the number for whatever horrible things we've been doing that are decreed by Kubes. I would rather deal with the fact that a couple of teams can stop Manning than deal with EVERYONE mashing our current slop into the turf.

I love me some Kubiak, but the mainstay of his offenses are simple plays and variations on those plays, executed perfectly and designed to test for and exploit weaknesses. Stretch runs test a defense's gap control. Bootlegs, play-action and counter runs punish them for overpursuit. Kubiak at his best does a simple thing so well that a defense is forced to overcommit and sell out to stop it - at which point he switches it up and punishes them for big gains.

It only works if you can execute that offense perfectly, though. If you can't dictate and are instead being dictated to, it's useless.

Kubiak is not wrong that he needs to help Manning, nor that we need to be able to run the ball later in the year and into the playoffs - run it successfully and for crucial yards and first downs, mind you. But if we aren't gonna start off that way then work on running the ball after you have a lead. Work on it in practice. Add in a percentage of plays and wrinkles ON TOP of what Manning does, and alter some of them to function out of the shotgun.

We are a hairsbreadth from being 0-2 despite having a top-5 defense. Our margin for messing around is small right now. Do what works to win ballgames and as the line gets its act together and Manning gets more comfortable moving back and forth from under the center to shotgun then we can refine what we're doing.

Hamstringing Manning at the moment would be like refusing to run it on Elway's Super Bowl squad. Refusing to use your best weapon is just stubbornness. Manning had one beautiful play where he faked a handoff right, the whole line and D went that way, and he took two steps to the left and fired a shot to the crossing receiver. THAT'S Manning's version of a bootleg. Do that stuff.

Kubiak is a smart guy, he can figure it out. Sooner rather than later, hopefully.

BroncoJoe
09-18-2015, 02:23 PM
I think Kubiak just needs to step away and let manning run the offense. It's the best chance we have.


Ok... what is Kubiaks playoff record as an HC again?

Damn, Ravage. What's with the hate on Kubiak?

What was Elway's record in the Superbowl? Kind of a dumb comment. Kubiak took a winless franchise and made them winners. (EDIT: sub-.500 franchise)

Oh, and helped Elway end his career with two SB wins.

Ravage!!!
09-18-2015, 03:59 PM
Damn, Ravage. What's with the hate on Kubiak?

What was Elway's record in the Superbowl? Kind of a dumb comment. Kubiak took a winless franchise and made them winners. (EDIT: sub-.500 franchise)

Oh, and helped Elway end his career with two SB wins.

Ok..he took a sub .500 team and in the seven years there, had an above .500 tem 3 times. Losing in the playoffs, at the divisional round, both times he made it there.

So the standard you're looking at is taking a losing team, and making them above losing less than 50% of the time, and claimng that a sign of success. We are ALREADY a successful team. So the question remains, what does he bring to the table? I just don't know.

It's forgotten just how many times those teams that finished 8-8 (while in Houstron)...were considered to be GOOD teams before the season started...always ending in what would be considered "a failing season" considering the expected results and the talent.

So yeah.. I was less than excited to see that Kubiak would be our new HC. It's great to try and "get the gang back together"..but only when it seems to make sense. There is nothing about Kubiak's offense that got me excited, and it certainly didn't mesh with what we already had on the team. Shanahan was the playcaller during those Super Bowl wins, not Kubiak.

So far, I haven't been impressed with Kubiak as an HC. That includes his time in Houston (more because of his time in Houston). The signing that was/am thrilled about more than any other, Wade Phillips as DC. I knew that would be a big BIG upgrade to our team. So I whole-heartedly admit that I am skeptical as to what Kubiak would bring to improve our team. I''m still very skeptical on that.

DenBronx
09-18-2015, 05:06 PM
After last nights game.

Title needs to be changed to: Congrats Manning, you turned Kubiak into Tony Dungy.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2015, 05:26 PM
Based on the second half of last night's game, it appears that Kubes is open to changing, if something is not working. I don't have a problem with that.

silkamilkamonico
09-18-2015, 05:51 PM
No way, a good defense shuts down manning. Look at the plays off losses. Look at the SB loss. Some defenses have Manning number. Just give the OL some growing pains. Let them learn how to do system geez. FFS

A good defense? People here are claiming KLC a top 5 defense when everyone's argument is we couldn't run against it.

On the flipside. You may be right. Maybe a good defense (I don't think KC is a particular great defense and we still couoldn't run the ball) does shut down Manning. In that case our offense is done, because it can't run what Kubiak wants to run right now and it's not going to be able to this year. It's just not built for it.

silkamilkamonico
09-18-2015, 05:53 PM
So far, I haven't been impressed with Kubiak as an HC. That includes his time in Houston (more because of his time in Houston). The signing that was/am thrilled about more than any other, Wade Phillips as DC. I knew that would be a big BIG upgrade to our team. So I whole-heartedly admit that I am skeptical as to what Kubiak would bring to improve our team. I''m still very skeptical on that.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel right now. I hated the Kubiak signing, and I hated the Phillips signing even more. But Phillips has been stellar for us and has given an already very good defense a sense of attitude and swagger, similiar to what you see in the defenses like Seattle. Love what Phillips has done to our defense.

GEM
09-18-2015, 11:30 PM
Damn, Ravage. What's with the hate on Kubiak?

What was Elway's record in the Superbowl? Kind of a dumb comment. Kubiak took a winless franchise and made them winners. (EDIT: sub-.500 franchise)

Oh, and helped Elway end his career with two SB wins.

Kubes shit in his Wheaties.

Poet
09-19-2015, 12:14 AM
Manning bailed out Kubiak. What Kubiak did in Texas is overly romanticized and overrated.

BroncoJoe
09-19-2015, 08:04 AM
Manning bailed out Kubiak. What Kubiak did in Texas is overly romanticized and overrated.

Yeah. No big deal what he did in Houston. I mean it's not like he took a team who never had a winning season and made them winners or anything... :rolleyes:

chazoe60
09-19-2015, 08:35 AM
Yeah. No big deal what he did in Houston. I mean it's not like he took a team who never had a winning season and made them winners or anything... :rolleyes:

All they did was beat the Bengals in the playoffs, who couldn't do that?

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 09:30 AM
Yeah. No big deal what he did in Houston. I mean it's not like he took a team who never had a winning season and made them winners or anything... :rolleyes:

Took an expansion team, that had been the league a whopping 4 years, and it then took him another 4 years to finally get 9 wins. It's not like he didn't have 7 years to finally get double digit wins. Kubiak didn't "turn that franchise around." He was just there longer than anyone else, and after the team had been in the league a decade, they finally got to the playoffs. It really wasn't that big of a "turn around"... at all. He didn't save that franchise, or make it.

BroncoJoe
09-19-2015, 09:43 AM
Hey - that's your opinion, and I can live with that.

I'm sure the Bills, Raiders, Browns, Rams, Jaguars, Buccaneers, Titans and Dolphins might disagree. Throw in the Jets, Bears and Giants as other teams who haven't made the playoffs since the Texans did.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 09:47 AM
Hey - that's your opinion, and I can live with that.

I'm sure the Bills, Raiders, Browns, Rams, Jaguars, Buccaneers, Titans and Dolphins might disagree. Throw in the Jets, Bears and Giants as other teams who haven't made the playoffs since the Texans did.

Would they? Because they all had chances to hire him last year when he was fired as HC. Plus, there were seasons in which the Texans were BIG favorites to go somewhere ddep into the playoffs, and they wouldn't even make it to the playoffs. It's why Houston finally said "no more" after 2 of their franchise's best seasons with him as lead of the helm.

I just think Kubiak gets more love here because of the history of him being drafted by Denver and was the OC for so long. He's had success as OC in the NFL, but there is a big diffrence from being OC to HC.

But like you said... its cool that we have different perspectives. I also really mean it when I say that I hope he figures it out and changes my mind while he learned to be a better HC in Houston, and takes that knowledge here with him. Thats great for Denver...I'd love it.

BroncoJoe
09-19-2015, 09:48 AM
Would they? Because they all had chances to hire him last year when he was fired as HC.

I was talking about winning their division and making the playoffs, which you seem to heavily discount for some reason.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 09:54 AM
I was talking about winning their division and making the playoffs, which you seem to heavily discount for some reason.

No. I'm confused because that doesn't change anything I said.

BroncoJoe
09-19-2015, 09:59 AM
Look - I'm not saying he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he is a proven coach and this team needed something different. The last few years have been great, but the style of ball we've played has not brought a Superbowl win with one of the greatest QB's ever. Sound familiar?

I hope he changes your mind too... as well as the final outcome of this season.

:)

Northman
09-19-2015, 10:06 AM
Kubiak had some issues in Houston, no question. But i think he can be a great HC within a great organization, i think Denver is that type of organization. Not every coach's first gig ends in SB wins.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 11:38 AM
Kubiak had more success at his first stop as head coach than Shanahan did at his first stop.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 11:43 AM
Kubiak had more success at his first stop as head coach than Shanahan did at his first stop.

Hmmm... well... Shanahan was given less than a season and a half, while Kubiak was provided 7 years to make a difference. If you want to call that apples to apples..... that's your opinion, but I don't quite see it that way.

TXBRONC
09-19-2015, 12:11 PM
Hmmm... well... Shanahan was given less than a season and a half, while Kubiak was provided 7 years to make a difference. If you want to call that apples to apples..... that's your opinion, but I don't quite see it that way.

Well you're doing the samething my friend.

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 12:13 PM
Well you're doing the samething my friend.

Ok. In what way?

Poet
09-19-2015, 12:18 PM
All they did was beat the Bengals in the playoffs, who couldn't do that?

I've made that argument before. Kubiak is marginally better than Marvin Lewis. Want to ask me how good Marvin Lewis is?

Ravage, I think we're at least 'sort' of in agreement. And for those who point to the Texans as a success story for Kubiak, for years people picked them as a darkhorse playoff team, and he constantly failed to live up to even that. How many years were the Texans even a great team? How many teams that are great implode like his did?

That defense of yours is a Wade Phillips monstrosity. That offense last night, when it worked, was Peyton's. If what Kubiak provides is a psyche that is superior to Fox's then I get it. But I thought the mad genius was supposed to fix that line and bring the Broncos a running game that was godly.

I'm just saying.

Oh, and Joe, you are my message board brother. Albeit a much older and balder one.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-19-2015, 12:53 PM
IMO, things will be fine. It will just take a while. Why did the Broncos finally win two SuperBowls - because they had a great running game, which then took the pressure off of #7, where he could do his thing. The Broncos have played two of the better AFC teams so far this year, and WON

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver Sep 18

Don't get caught up in the either/or crap. Team win. RT @timjsheard: did the O & PFM win the game or was it the D again that won it?

Ravage!!!
09-19-2015, 01:06 PM
I've made that argument before. Kubiak is marginally better than Marvin Lewis. Want to ask me how good Marvin Lewis is?

Ravage, I think we're at least 'sort' of in agreement. And for those who point to the Texans as a success story for Kubiak, for years people picked them as a darkhorse playoff team, and he constantly failed to live up to even that. How many years were the Texans even a great team? How many teams that are great implode like his did?

That defense of yours is a Wade Phillips monstrosity. That offense last night, when it worked, was Peyton's. If what Kubiak provides is a psyche that is superior to Fox's then I get it. But I thought the mad genius was supposed to fix that line and bring the Broncos a running game that was godly.

I'm just saying.



This is what I'm saying. I think Elway brings in Kubiak because Kubes knows the changes that HAD to happen in order to bring the trophies to Denver, and with that knowledge, he can try to impliment that mindset. I like that its Kubiak, but I don't think Kubiak is a better HC than Fox is/was. That's either good nor bad, because I don't think Fox was nearly as bad as many posters around here want to say.

Wade is the bigger signing of the two, imo.

At the same time, as Carol just pointed out (as have many).... its only week 2. We have time to get the running game some wheels. So I'm not judging Kubkiak on his time in Denver yet, but his time in Houston.

But we are 2-0. At this point of the season, you just can't be better than that.

Poet
09-19-2015, 01:46 PM
I'm certain we've never agreed so much on any single day.


If pigs start flying I'm going to be pissed (my food needs to be stationary).

Buff
09-23-2015, 02:22 PM
I've made that argument before. Kubiak is marginally better than Marvin Lewis. Want to ask me how good Marvin Lewis is?

Ravage, I think we're at least 'sort' of in agreement. And for those who point to the Texans as a success story for Kubiak, for years people picked them as a darkhorse playoff team, and he constantly failed to live up to even that. How many years were the Texans even a great team? How many teams that are great implode like his did?

That defense of yours is a Wade Phillips monstrosity. That offense last night, when it worked, was Peyton's. If what Kubiak provides is a psyche that is superior to Fox's then I get it. But I thought the mad genius was supposed to fix that line and bring the Broncos a running game that was godly.

I'm just saying.

Oh, and Joe, you are my message board brother. Albeit a much older and balder one.

I think Kubiak has an unenviable task of trying to turn us into a more physical team that utilizes the run more, at the request of John Elway, while also still having Manning as the starting QB and an inexperienced o-line. They are basically opposing/competing priorities, and he somehow has to find the happy medium.

I think it's unfair to lay blame on Kubiak at this stage when he really doesn't have the ideal personnel to fit the vision. I think he's diligently trying to remake the team in Elway's vision, while not going through any rebuilding lull that many teams experience in coaching transitions.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-23-2015, 03:03 PM
I think Kubiak has an unenviable task of trying to turn us into a more physical team that utilizes the run more, at the request of John Elway, while also still having Manning as the starting QB and an inexperienced o-line. They are basically opposing/competing priorities, and he somehow has to find the happy medium.

I think it's unfair to lay blame on Kubiak at this stage when he really doesn't have the ideal personnel to fit the vision. I think he's diligently trying to remake the team in Elway's vision, while not going through any rebuilding lull that many teams experience in coaching transitions.

Kubiak has my respect after the effort I've seen the team play with so far.

TXBRONC
09-23-2015, 03:06 PM
Kubiak has my respect after the effort I've seen the team play with so far.

Same here. Wade Phillips also has my respect.

Ravage!!!
09-23-2015, 04:09 PM
We have Wade PHillips to thank. Wade has always been a great DC, and that hasn't changed.

Joel
09-23-2015, 04:11 PM
Kubiak has my respect after the effort I've seen the team play with so far.


Same here. Wade Phillips also has my respect.

And baby makes three, on both counts. One of those times I can be GLAD of being right; here's hoping there are many more such coming soon. As long as the ACTUAL Schaub finally taught Kubiak even he can't win championships with the likes of that and Griese, we'll be fine. But if he can't get us there soon with Manning, it'll probably take a while to find a QB capable of succeeding him.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-23-2015, 04:25 PM
We have Wade PHillips to thank. Wade has always been a great DC, and that hasn't changed.

I think credit also needs to be given to Kubiak as a leader of men.

Ravage!!!
09-23-2015, 04:52 PM
I think credit also needs to be given to Kubiak as a leader of men.

Hmm... ok. People want to crash down on Fox, yet we came back many times with other QBs behind center. As of right now, I'm giving much more credit to Phillips as I can actually see something positive from his side of the ball, and his work.

Joel
09-23-2015, 05:03 PM
I think credit also needs to be given to Kubiak as a leader of men.
The contrast with Fox couldn't be more stark: No more applauding blown plays and grinning through press conferences, constantly talking about "correctable mistakes" he NEVER corrects (even though THAT'S HIS JOB.) He's frankly stated his dissatisfaction (without tipping his hand by giving future opponents specifics) and demanded improvement; ask Ball and Clark what'll happen to everyone who doesn't deliver, whether a star (e.g. Mathis and Vasquez,) a vet he's known for years (e.g. Ryan Harris) or a promising younster (e.g. Sambrailo and Paradis.) Not with malice nor anger, but not with hesitation either.

Take that failed red zone 4th down in KC that's earned him so much criticism. Going for it wasn't a bad call, because any halfway decent offense should be able to run for 2 yds in 3 tries. He's as unhappy as anyone about that, but probably not for the same reason as most: He did what EVERY offensive player ALWAYS BEGS their coach to do, because he trusted his boys to at least be slightly below average--and they let him down. I GUARANTEE he's discussed it with them, neither indulgently nor menacingly, but as a fact of life that WILL change, whether or not they accomplish that change.

It's his first season, he's installing a new complex system, draft picks and cap space are finite, and the loss of an All Pro LT (and the only offensive player other than Harris and Daniels who have ZBS experience) compounded the challenges. Three of last years starters are gone, and not because Kubes shares McDumbass' petty prejudice against predecessors' players. He can only fill and upgrade so many of those holes at once, and since FA ended the quality of alternatives is relatively low; some guys who shouldn't start may continue doing so because they're the BPA--for now....

Kubes'll get us right in the end, sooner rather than later, and I'm not saying that just because of my admittedly many and strong biases in his favor. He knows how, from a systematic, personnel and intrapersonal record of consistent success. Elways involvement in much of that record since they both went pro suggests he'll be more accommodating than McNair or anyone else: Kubiak can do all aspects of the job, and won't be fighting with his roster tied behind his back, so will get it done. Just hope Manning's still around then (this is why I wanted him to go to a Texans team far more complete in 2011. :tongue:)

Joel
09-23-2015, 05:09 PM
Hmm... ok. People want to crash down on Fox, yet we came back many times with other QBs behind center. As of right now, I'm giving much more credit to Phillips as I can actually see something positive from his side of the ball, and his work.

Two is "many"? If memory serves, "many" people condemned "Foxball" as a thinly veiled ripoff of Martyball, and gave Manning all credit for bombing our way back into games, after crediting our other winning QBs success to luck and Del Rios D (the same one that let us down so badly in the 2012 and 2014 playoffs.) The only other QB Fox had in Denver was Orton, whose 1-4 tenure featured few comebacks.

TXBRONC
09-23-2015, 05:24 PM
And baby makes three, on both counts. One of those times I can be GLAD of being right; here's hoping there are many more such coming soon. As long as the ACTUAL Schaub finally taught Kubiak even he can't win championships with the likes of that and Griese, we'll be fine. But if he can't get us there soon with Manning, it'll probably take a while to find a QB capable of succeeding him.

With guy like Kubiak and his background it's not about being taught a lesson. He knows what a elite quarterback looks like he backed up an elite quarterback for eight or nine years and then spent another four years as the offensive coordinator of that same elite quarterback. So he knows but the fact is they're not easy to find.

Joel
09-23-2015, 06:13 PM
With guy like Kubiak and his background it's not about being taught a lesson. He knows what a elite quarterback looks like he backed up an elite quarterback for eight or nine years and then spent another four years as the offensive coordinator of that same elite quarterback. So he knows but the fact is they're not easy to find.

All true, I just sometimes felt he thought he didn't NEED an elite QB, due to overestimating how much elite coaching can improve mediocre players (and still do a bit, with him and QBs as well as Dennison and linemen.) I mean, EVERY season starter he's ever had made at least one Pro Bowl; Griese even managed it in 2000, averaging 8 yds/att and posting a career-low Int% (1.2) and career-high rating (102.9.) If he can do that much teaching and scheming with so little, it must be tempting to think he can do it annually with anything.

Thing is, that was Grieses ONLY Pro Bowl, and it was much the same for Schaub and Plummer. After everyone gets a season or two of game film the gimmicks and stratagems stop working and the QBs many physical and mental deficiencies get exposed; then everyone exploits them evey week, reducing the schemes and gameplans to damage control. Losing Foster didn't help Houstons 2013 offense, but Ben Tate was decent behind their solid line, so Schaub breaking the NFL record for consecutive pick-six games is squarely on Schaub alone, IMHO. Kubiak, Dennison and even WADE were just among his victims.

I'd said since 2011 Schaub would play himself and his coach out of a job unless upgraded first, and still believe that's what happened. If I could see it, so could Kubiak, and, if he didn't with Griese, Plummer and Schaub, I hope he now realizes turning hamburger into prime rib still can't make it filet mignon. It's worth waiting for a QB worth COACHING, especially while plugging many holes on a line guaranteed to ruin the careers of even the best QBs and RBs. It's also worth doing the latter ASAP when one already has a QB like Manning; hopefully Dennison didn't handpick a Griese in Sambrailo.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-23-2015, 07:05 PM
Hmm... ok. People want to crash down on Fox, yet we came back many times with other QBs behind center. As of right now, I'm giving much more credit to Phillips as I can actually see something positive from his side of the ball, and his work.
I get that. ..I understand what I'm saying is somewhat subjective.

Valar Morghulis
09-24-2015, 12:45 AM
Attitude reflects leadership.

I like our attitude. Thanks kubes

Ravage!!!
09-24-2015, 09:42 AM
Two is "many"? If memory serves, "many" people condemned "Foxball" as a thinly veiled ripoff of Martyball, and gave Manning all credit for bombing our way back into games, after crediting our other winning QBs success to luck and Del Rios D (the same one that let us down so badly in the 2012 and 2014 playoffs.) The only other QB Fox had in Denver was Orton, whose 1-4 tenure featured few comebacks.

I forget just how completely literal you are and how long -winded you can be over nothing.

I know you are a Kubiak fan... I get it. But there has been nothing, so far, either from Houston nor from Denver... that shows me that this offense is good. His "fingerprints" in Houston, didn't exactly prove themselves to be successful.

I wasn't 'excited' for the Kubiak hiring, as I think he's just completely over rated around here. Until I see something that actually shows signs of him, I'll continue to believe that. At the same time, I absolutely will root for the best for the Broncos, whatever that may be.

Joel
09-24-2015, 02:55 PM
I forget just how completely literal you are and how long -winded you can be over nothing.

I know you are a Kubiak fan... I get it. But there has been nothing, so far, either from Houston nor from Denver... that shows me that this offense is good. His "fingerprints" in Houston, didn't exactly prove themselves to be successful.

I had a detailed reponse to this typed out for you in another thread, but for some reason the forum software thinks PFRs list of Houstons 2013 IR is 50k. Considering how many people were on it, that may be credible, but it's way over the character limit, so consider yourself lucky. On the other hand....

Houston was a 4-year-old 4-12 baby carriage fire when Kubiak arrived; he made made it respectable immediately and respected eventually. This threads "Kubiak made Manning into Schaub" slander inadvertently pinpoints Houstons problem, and it wan't Kubiak (unless he rather than McNair wanted Schaub.) Filtering results with one team through results with all is a good approach, so let's do that:

What'd Schaub do before and after Kubiak got him to a Pro Bowl, and what'd Shanny do before and after his SB repeat with Kubiak as OC? Schaub only wound up in Houston because he'd played himself out of the franchise QB job in Atlanta, making him affordable for a team needing a QB after Capers and an awful line destroyed David Carrs career. Since melting down so badly he cost himself AND all his coaches their jobs in just one season, Schaub's been a backup (I'm not even sure he's still playing.) How good were the early '00s Falcons?

About as good as Shannys late '80s Raiders and early '10s 'Skins. Put another away: Head Coach Kubiaks taken more teams to the playoffs without Shanahan than Head Coach Shanahan has without Kubiak. Since it's well known Shanny Raiders and 'Skins were garbage, let's look at his epic Broncos:

Phoning in a playoff opener against a second-year expansion team cost big, but all that happened next was TWO straight SB wins, along the way making Terrell Davis the ONLY man to run for 3 TDs in a SB and one of only half a dozen to post a 2000 yd season. Kubiaks last year in Denver, he settled Plummer down into a Pro Bowler who only threw 6 Ints all year (a career low) before the AFCCG meltdown began the end of Plummers career. THAT WAS THE LAST SEASON SHANNY HAD DOUBLE-DIGIT WINS--ANYWHERE!

Don't get me wrong, I love Mike Shanahan: The record just makes me wonder whether Kubiak's overrated because of him, or vice versa.


I wasn't 'excited' for the Kubiak hiring, as I think he's just completely over rated around here. Until I see something that actually shows signs of him, I'll continue to believe that. At the same time, I absolutely will root for the best for the Broncos, whatever that may be.

That's fair enough; Kubiak almost CAN'T be as good as I think. But... WOW was that Texans expansion team bad; way worse than we were last year: If he can make THAT a 12-4 division champ and win a couple playoff games with SCHAUB, imagine what he can make an EXISTING 12-4 team with MANNING. Kubiaks two great lacks in Houston were a D, which Wade fixed in 2011, and a QB, which Manning would've fixed in 2012. So it's a different team than I fantasized doing it then, and Manning's got less time, but otherwise: Here we are.

Elway's now doing pretty much all I've wanted (though I would've drafted linemen earlier) since before we got Manning, so on one level I almost NEED it to work. We'll see; depends on how fast Kubiak and Dennison can 1) fix the line and/or 2) find a worthy successor to Manning when he runs out of gas. If Elway'd hired all Houstons ex-coaches the moment they were free, I'd guarantee SB 50, but I frankly doubt Kubiak will be the first HC EVER to win a SB the same year he joined a team. Hopefully I'm wrong there, Manning has just ONE more good year left after this or Oz (or whoever) is the next Rodgers.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2015, 06:12 PM
I had a detailed reponse to this typed out for you in another thread, but for some reason the forum software thinks PFRs list of Houstons 2013 IR is 50k. Considering how many people were on it, that may be credible, but it's way over the character limit, so consider yourself lucky. On the other hand....

Houston was a 4-year-old 4-12 baby carriage fire when Kubiak arrived; he made made it respectable immediately and respected eventually. This threads "Kubiak made Manning into Schaub" slander inadvertently pinpoints Houstons problem, and it wan't Kubiak (unless he rather than McNair wanted Schaub.) Filtering results with one team through results with all is a good approach, so let's do that:

What'd Schaub do before and after Kubiak got him to a Pro Bowl, and what'd Shanny do before and after his SB repeat with Kubiak as OC? Schaub only wound up in Houston because he'd played himself out of the franchise QB job in Atlanta, making him affordable for a team needing a QB after Capers and an awful line destroyed David Carrs career. Since melting down so badly he cost himself AND all his coaches their jobs in just one season, Schaub's been a backup (I'm not even sure he's still playing.) How good were the early '00s Falcons?

About as good as Shannys late '80s Raiders and early '10s 'Skins. Put another away: Head Coach Kubiaks taken more teams to the playoffs without Shanahan than Head Coach Shanahan has without Kubiak. Since it's well known Shanny Raiders and 'Skins were garbage, let's look at his epic Broncos:

Even Shannys BRONCOS were 8-8 pre-Kubiak; WITH Kubiak, we immediately became a 13-3 #1 seed. Phoning in a playoff opener against a second-year expansion team cost big, but all that happened next was TWO straight SB wins, along the way making Terrell Davis the ONLY man to run for 3 TDs in a SB and one of only half a dozen to post a 2000 yd season. Kubiaks last year in Denver, he settled Plummer down into a Pro Bowler who only threw 6 Ints all year (a career low) before the AFCCG meltdown began the end of Plummers career. THAT WAS THE LAST SEASON SHANNY HAD DOUBLE-DIGIT WINS.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mike Shanahan: The record just makes me wonder whether Kubiak's overrated because of him, or vice versa.



That's fair enough; Kubiak almost CAN'T be as good as I think. But... WOW was that Texans expansion team bad; way worse than we were last year: If he can make THAT a 12-4 division champ and win a couple playoff games with SCHAUB, imagine what he can make an EXISTING 12-4 team with MANNING. Kubiaks two great lacks in Houston were a D, which Wade fixed in 2011, and a QB, which Manning would've fixed in 2012. So it's a different team than I fantasized doing it then, and Manning's got less time, but otherwise: Here we are.

Elway's now doing pretty much all I've wanted (though I would've drafted linemen earlier) since before we got Manning, so on one level I almost NEED it to work. We'll see; depends on how fast Kubiak and Dennison can 1) fix the line and/or 2) find a worthy successor to Manning when he runs out of gas. If Elway'd hired all Houstons ex-coaches the moment they were free, I'd guarantee SB 50, but I frankly doubt Kubiak will be the first HC EVER to win a SB the same year he joined a team. Hopefully I'm wrong there, Manning has just ONE more good year left after this or Oz (or whoever) is the next Rodgers.
You can guarantee a Super Bowl victory had Elway just signed over the entire Houston staff?????? Uhmmmm..welll... ok.


But I would bet dollars to donuts that Manning doesn't play in Denver next year. So you better hope that Kubiak actually improves his coaching skills to a higher lever, pretty fast.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2015, 06:17 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love Mike Shanahan: The record just makes me wonder whether Kubiak's overrated because of him, or vice versa.



Shanahan did take the Broncos to the Super Bowl as the OC, and then won it with San Fran (as the OC) before becoming the HC that was calling the plays in Denver. But I find it funny that you think it was Kubiak calling the plays during the SUper Bowl years when it was well known that it was Shanahan.

Joel
09-24-2015, 07:08 PM
You can guarantee a Super Bowl victory had Elway just signed over the entire Houston staff?????? Uhmmmm..welll... ok.

He pretty much did, but if he'd done it LAST year I'd make that guarantee NOW. As it is: NO ONE--not Lombardi, not Landry, not Walsh and certainly not Shanahan--has EVER taken over a team and immediately won a SB. Seifert's the only guy whose team won a SB the first year he was head coach, but he was promoted (by defending champs who'd already won 3,) so still running his same system with his same players. Kubiak's installing a complex and completely different system, and previously coached only TWO of his current players. He doesn't have SFs '80s line either, nor Steve Young behind Manning.


But I would bet dollars to donuts that Manning doesn't play in Denver next year. So you better hope that Kubiak actually improves his coaching skills to a higher lever, pretty fast.
I don't have enough donuts to take that bet, but his skills are fine: I hope he improves our LINE fast. Too bad we didn't have him last year, but I realize there was no chance a SB team would bail on its whole coaching staff for the LAST PLACE teams staff (then again, I'd have thought there was no chance a SB teams whole coaching staff bails on IT at the start of their next playoff game, but....)

If Manning had another year... well, when we signed him I said he'd either retire by 2015 or "we'd all wish he had," so I don't expect him back in 2016, no. Not much more to add to that except "so close.... :("


Shanahan did take the Broncos to the Super Bowl as the OC, and then won it with San Fran (as the OC) before becoming the HC that was calling the plays in Denver. But I find it funny that you think it was Kubiak calling the plays during the SUper Bowl years when it was well known that it was Shanahan.
Uh huh: And Shanny as HEAD coach of his other two teams did what, exactly? Take them to their first non-losing and then first winning seasons EVER? Win their division title and playoff game EVER, then the second of each the very next year? Let's not measure those teams against Kubiaks best Houston showing (12-4:) How many times did Shannys Raiders or 'Skins match the 10-6 record Houston posted in 2011? Shanahan won a SB with a SF team that WON FOUR BEFORE HE EVER GOT THERE? Wow; Seifert let them to TWO SB wins when Shanny succeeded him as OC: That make him great, too? ;)

I can't say who did or didn't call our offensive plays in the SB wins, but can say this:

SINCE Kubiak Shanny's NEVER been better than 9-7, with EITHER of his teams, but WITH Kubiak Shannys team went 13-3, 12-4, and 13-3 over 3 years, with BOTH Denver ONLY SB wins EVER.

I can't KNOW if Shanahan made Kubiak, vice versa or (most likely) something in between, but I do know that without Kubiak Shanahan's NEVER been better than a 9-7 HEAD coach (and often much worse.)

Northman
09-24-2015, 07:25 PM
You also have to take into account player personnel though. Late in Shanahan's tenure in Denver he had a lot of young players especially on offense, thats not always going to translate to 12-4 seasons and rarely does. It was a rebuilding mode when Shanahan was eventually fired. I think its hilarious that someone actually believes that Shanahan didnt have a hand in those SB wins.

Joel
09-24-2015, 07:27 PM
Oh, while we're making comparisons: It took Landry 7 years to get an expansion team to a winning season and the playoffs, 11 to reach a SB and 12 to WIN one, which is the FASTEST EXPANSION TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP EVER. But Kubiak's an awful coach for not doing the same in HALF the time? Setting the bar a bit high, no?

Joel
09-24-2015, 07:33 PM
You also have to take into account player personnel though. Late in Shanahan's tenure in Denver he had a lot of young players especially on offense, thats not always going to translate to 12-4 seasons and rarely does. It was a rebuilding mode when Shanahan was eventually fired. I think its hilarious that someone actually believes that Shanahan didnt have a hand in those SB wins.

Like I say, it was probably a combination of Shanahan AND Kubiak. The point wasn't to bag on Shanny (again, I love Shanny to death) and credit all his contributions and accomplishments to Kubiak, only that the reverse is an equally false dichotomy. If anyone's in a position to say whether Shanny carried Kubes or vice versa, it's Elway, and both were available last year: Which did Elway hire?

Northman
09-25-2015, 05:52 AM
Like I say, it was probably a combination of Shanahan AND Kubiak. The point wasn't to bag on Shanny (again, I love Shanny to death) and credit all his contributions and accomplishments to Kubiak, only that the reverse is an equally false dichotomy. If anyone's in a position to say whether Shanny carried Kubes or vice versa, it's Elway, and both were available last year: Which did Elway hire?

I can guarantee that the hiring of Kubes had little to do with how good/bad he was compared to Shanahan. Im sorry, some of the stuff you spout on here is totally ridiculous and this one of those moments. Its actually common knowledge that Elway and Shanahan had a strained friendship for whatever reason that is so the likelihood that Elway would re-hire Shanahan was virtually zero. Shanahan did his time in Denver so even if Kubes was not hired to coach Denver Shanahan would not of been brought back. It had nothing to do with how much input both had during Elway's days as a QB.

Ravage!!!
09-25-2015, 10:20 AM
Oh, while we're making comparisons: It took Landry 7 years to get an expansion team to a winning season and the playoffs, 11 to reach a SB and 12 to WIN one, which is the FASTEST EXPANSION TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP EVER. But Kubiak's an awful coach for not doing the same in HALF the time? Setting the bar a bit high, no?

Landry? What year was that and was there free agency?

Don't compare that time to now, you need to read the book on how FA changed the NFL.

Kubiak's problem was that he often had stacked teams that were considered to be "favorites" to win the division, and/or go deep into the playoffs....and would end up with 8-8 or 9-7. I think its cool that you are such a big fan of his, but you sound like "top" used to sound when defending Kyle Orton. They weren't "excuses"..but reasons.

Ravage!!!
09-25-2015, 10:32 AM
Uh huh: And Shanny as HEAD coach of his other two teams did what, exactly? Take them to their first non-losing and then first winning seasons EVER? Win their division title and playoff game EVER, then the second of each the very next year? Let's not measure those teams against Kubiaks best Houston showing (12-4:) How many times did Shannys Raiders or 'Skins match the 10-6 record Houston posted in 2011? Shanahan won a SB with a SF team that WON FOUR BEFORE HE EVER GOT THERE? Wow; Seifert let them to TWO SB wins when Shanny succeeded him as OC: That make him great, too? ;)



I'm amazed that you are comparing one franchise that has a 73 year history to the Texans that had a four (4) year history... and then brag that he led them to their "first winning season." Uhmmm.. wow?? Honestly? Do you really think that holds much clout? Because I'm just astounded that it was used... in ANY way...as a point of contention.

I'm confused as to why you are trying to compare SHanahan's HC obs to Kubiak's, as it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion...but SHanahan took his Washington team to the playoffs in 3 years, and it took Kubiak 4 years to get a winning season and 6 years to get to the playoffs. Either way... glad you are a fan. But I'm not sold, and your long "topscribe" defenses of Kubiaks tenure isn't doing a good job of changing my mind.

TXBRONC
09-25-2015, 05:32 PM
Landry? What year was that and was there free agency?

Don't compare that time to now, you need to read the book on how FA changed the NFL.

Kubiak's problem was that he often had stacked teams that were considered to be "favorites" to win the division, and/or go deep into the playoffs....and would end up with 8-8 or 9-7. I think its cool that you are such a big fan of his, but you sound like "top" used to sound when defending Kyle Orton. They weren't "excuses"..but reasons.

That not accurate Rav. There was a two or three year window where Texans were favored to win their division and make a serious playoff run. Stacked team not hardly. The Texans had some talent but they were far from being considered stacked.

Elway knows exactly what Kubiak did in the Shanahan era and he feels he did plenty to prove himself.

Joel
09-25-2015, 06:21 PM
Landry? What year was that and was there free agency?

Don't compare that time to now, you need to read the book on how FA changed the NFL.
I'm old enough to have WATCHED how FA changed the NFL without needing a reference. One thing it definitely DIDN'T do was make it easier for expansion teams to keep lots of their original players under contract even after they became stars. Could be why the fastest expansion-to-SB teams EVER were still created 50 years ago (Minnesota's not far behind Dallas for fastest improvement from NOTHING, and was created the same year.) The Saints were created the same year Dallas reached its first SB; when did they reach THEIRS? Seattle? Atlanta? Tampa? Jacksonville?

Carolina's the ONLY team to reach a SB faster than Dallas, thanks to winning ¼ of their games in OT, back when whoever won the toss didn't have to kick if they scored. They're still awaiting a championship....

So Kubiak's a bum for not quite managing to do in 7 years (plus the dregs he inherited from Capers) what NO expansion team has EVER done. Even with HoF "bum" coaches.


Kubiak's problem was that he often had stacked teams that were considered to be "favorites" to win the division, and/or go deep into the playoffs....and would end up with 8-8 or 9-7.
Right, you said that before, but: Name three times Kubiaks Texans were "favorites" to win the division and/or go deep in the playoffs? Teams whose coach took them from 4-12 to .500, in a division where Mannings Colts won a DOZEN or more games ANNUALLY?! Are the Chiefs or Chargers "favorites" to win the AFCW and make a deep run? Bashing him for taking a 4-12 expansion team to .500 in two years but needing several to go further is one thing, but condemning him because his 8-8 and 9-7 teams were "disappointing favorites" to make the AFCCG game sharing a division with a team that WON two, AND a SB?

When Kubiak took them from 4-12 to 8-8 Houston wasn't a "favorite" to do anything, only a POSSIBLE wildcard. I doubt anyone favored them for a playoff spot or AFCCG appearance the year after they went 9-7 (their FIRST WINNING SEASON EVER,) but they won their first division title and playoff game ever--with Schaub on IR and a ROOKIE UDFA QB STARTING. Even SHULA lost his first playoff as head coach, with UNITAS in his prime at QB; Kubiak WON his first, with a ROOKIE TJ YATES. They got within a game of the AFCCG; that's overperforming after a 9-7 season.

Kubiaks Texans were "'favorites' to win the division, and/or go deep into the playoffs" all of ONCE: The 12-4 season following their 10-4 season and divisional round loss (to next years champions.) And they DID win the division, despite Lucks 10-6 Colts, and once again came within a game of the AFCCG before running into a Cheatriot buzzsaw. But if everyone who's winless playoff games @NE is a bum, what does that make Manning, and pretty much EVERYONE who's gone to Foxborough in January? Even Baltimore only won by a FG there, even with the League Office practically renaming it the "Ray Lewis Trophy."


I think its cool that you are such a big fan of his, but you sound like "top" used to sound when defending Kyle Orton. They weren't "excuses"..but reasons.

The proof's ultimately in the pudding, so it doesn't matter what I nor anyone thinks. Elway's right he was hired to win championships, not games, divisions nor even conferences, so he hired Kubiak to do the same. They'll either do it and vindicate their management skills together, or fail and take their lumps together, along with their advocates.


I'm amazed that you are comparing one franchise that has a 73 year history to the Texans that had a four (4) year history... and then brag that he led them to their "first winning season." Uhmmm.. wow?? Honestly? Do you really think that holds much clout? Because I'm just astounded that it was used... in ANY way...as a point of contention.

I'm amazed you can make an argument based on them being only four-years-old after previously arguing a four-year-old team's no longer an expansion team, so was no anchor around Kubiaks neck. Four years; that's a varsity team, not a PRO team, and the league was sufficiently embarrassed by the greatly "expanded" '95 expansion draft getting BOTH teams within a game of the SB by '97 that Houston and Cleveland didn't get all the help to avoid becoming the next New Orleans, Atlanta, Seattle or Tampa.

The point is they WERE still an expansion team (i.e. 4-12 and awful) but it only took Kubiak 2 years to end an unbroken string of losing seasons, 2 more to make them WINNERS, and 2 more to make them division champs and playoff game winners. They only regressed ONCE in Kubiaks first 7 years, and the REASON (i.e. NOT excuse) for what happened year 8 is Schaub pulling a '05 AFCCG Plummer (starting the season by breaking the RECORD for consecutive pick-six games) and this: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2013_injuries.htm Todays Historical Simulator Scenario:

You get the 2013 Houston Texans, but after playing the 2013 Bolts (wildcard,) Seahawks (SB Champ,) Ravens (defending SB Champ,) SF (defending NFC Champ) you LOSE Owen Daniels (Pro Bowler,) then play KC (wildcard) and LOSE Brian Cushing (Pro Bowler) and Danieal Manning (starting safety,) then play Lucks Colts (division champ) and Arizona (a team that went 10-6 despite playing ¼ of its schedule against NFCCG teams) and LOSE Arian Foster. Then "all" you have left is NE (division Champ,) Indy AGAIN and us (record-shattering AFC Champ) while Ed Reed quits and you desperately seek Schaubs replacement.

Your challenge, since you choose to impose it, is to win 10 games.


I'm confused as to why you are trying to compare SHanahan's HC obs to Kubiak's, as it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion...but SHanahan took his Washington team to the playoffs in 3 years, and it took Kubiak 4 years to get a winning season and 6 years to get to the playoffs. Either way... glad you are a fan. But I'm not sold, and your long "topscribe" defenses of Kubiaks tenure isn't doing a good job of changing my mind.
You're right, I inexcusably managed to blot Shannys 'Skins playoff games out of my mind as he and RGIII wish they could. But you're right about another thing: A four-year-old expansion teams front office and roster have NOTHING like the talent, skill and experience of a FOUNDING NFL club. Still took Shanny 3 years to reach that playoff with all THOSE resources when Kubiak did it in 6 with the rookies and scrub vets hand-picked by his failed successor (whose main qualification was getting the '97 Panthers to the NFCCG after the NFL gave them and Jax booster chairs it consequently denied Houston and Cleveland.)

Again, my point isn't to bash Shanny, of whom I'm very fond and for whom I have the deepest respect (except when it comes to running defenses.... :tongue:) In a sense, that's the exact opposite of my point: That his and Kubiaks contributions to our SB wins aren't mutually exclusive, and implying EITHER carried the others mediocrity to greatness is a grossly inaccurate oversimplification. Their Denver roles and accomplishments overlapped so much it's hard to distinguish either fingerprints from the others (Kubiak's on the other end of that dilemma with Dennison, here, in Houston, in Baltimore and now here again.)

Kubiak didn't just idly ride Shannys coattails, and has great accomplishments on his own, on two different teams (those in Houston aren't just because of Kyle Shanahan either, but if anyone's a candidate for "great by association"....)

Joel
09-25-2015, 06:35 PM
I can guarantee that the hiring of Kubes had little to do with how good/bad he was compared to Shanahan. Im sorry, some of the stuff you spout on here is totally ridiculous and this one of those moments. Its actually common knowledge that Elway and Shanahan had a strained friendship for whatever reason that is so the likelihood that Elway would re-hire Shanahan was virtually zero. Shanahan did his time in Denver so even if Kubes was not hired to coach Denver Shanahan would not of been brought back. It had nothing to do with how much input both had during Elway's days as a QB.
You don't credit "common knowledge" nearly as, well, CREDULOUSLY on Spygate and Deflategate: Why's this different (there's certainly far less concrete evidence.) Isn't it similarly "common knowledge" Shannys relationship with Elway was so strained he was able to put Elway up to delivering the supposed "him or me" ultimatum that led to Reeves floating trade offers so Mr. Bowlen had to fire him?

My point was simply that if Kubiak were nothing more than along for Shannys championship ride, Elway had a far better option. I agree Shanny is never coming back, not because of any personal history with Elway, but because of professional history with Mr. Bowlen. From a distance, it seemed like Shanny got MORE megalomaniacal as he was LESS successful (and his Broncos teams declined sharpy the moment Kubiak left, though they were still rarely losers.) Whether or not that perception's accurate, re-hiring him truly WOULD be regression in a way Kubiak is not (contrary to popular belief.)

Northman
09-25-2015, 06:43 PM
You don't credit "common knowledge" nearly as, well, CREDULOUSLY on Spygate and Deflategate: Why's this different (there's certainly far less concrete evidence.) Isn't it similarly "common knowledge" Shannys relationship with Elway was so strained he was able to put Elway up to delivering the supposed "him or me" ultimatum that led to Reeves floating trade offers so Mr. Bowlen had to fire him?

My point was simply that if Kubiak were nothing more than along for Shannys championship ride, Elway had a far better option. I agree Shanny is never coming back, not because of any personal history with Elway, but because of professional history with Mr. Bowlen. From a distance, it seemed like Shanny got MORE megalomaniacal as he was LESS successful (and his Broncos teams declined sharpy the moment Kubiak left, though they were still rarely losers.) Whether or not that perception's accurate, re-hiring him truly WOULD be regression in a way Kubiak is not (contrary to popular belief.)

Ive never said that Kubiak was along for the ride nor said that Kubiak was a bust here. Not sure where you are dragging that shit from.

Joel
09-25-2015, 06:59 PM
Ive never said that Kubiak was along for the ride nor said that Kubiak was a bust here. Not sure where you are dragging that shit from.
I never said YOU did, but (unless I badly misunderstood it) that IS the core of the argument to which I first replied: Kubiak's few successes were SOLELY with (so vicariously through) Shanny, as demonstrated by his consistent failure without Shanny. So I pointed out that could as easily cut the other way, as Shanny hasn't exactly polished his own Canton bust anywhere he lacked Kubiak. Even back to his OC SB victory in SF (already defending champ after winning its 4th) he "relied" on his QB coach (i.e. Gary Kubiak) as much as any OC does. Maybe more, given Kubiak and Youngs shared proclivity for scrambling.

Dzone
09-25-2015, 09:11 PM
Thats interesting. I had forgotten about shannahan a kubiak getting to that steve young super bowl...Hopefully kubiak will do as a lot of fired coaches have recently done on their second or third team..I dunno, so far he seems as conservative as fox, but its just 2 games , so hopefully not

Northman
09-26-2015, 07:42 AM
I never said YOU did, but (unless I badly misunderstood it) that IS the core of the argument to which I first replied: Kubiak's few successes were SOLELY with (so vicariously through) Shanny, as demonstrated by his consistent failure without Shanny. So I pointed out that could as easily cut the other way, as Shanny hasn't exactly polished his own Canton bust anywhere he lacked Kubiak. Even back to his OC SB victory in SF (already defending champ after winning its 4th) he "relied" on his QB coach (i.e. Gary Kubiak) as much as any OC does. Maybe more, given Kubiak and Youngs shared proclivity for scrambling.

To be fair, even Joe Gibbs second run didnt amount to anything either. A HC's success doesnt just hinge on their coaching abilities alone, other factors play a part as well.

NightTerror218
09-26-2015, 09:25 AM
Thats interesting. I had forgotten about shannahan a kubiak getting to that steve young super bowl...Hopefully kubiak will do as a lot of fired coaches have recently done on their second or third team..I dunno, so far he seems as conservative as fox, but its just 2 games , so hopefully not

Like going for it on 4th down in middle of first half in game one?

Ravage!!!
09-26-2015, 09:53 AM
Like going for it on 4th down in middle of first half in game one?

Yeah... bad calls is bad calls.

Ravage!!!
09-26-2015, 09:57 AM
I never said YOU did, but (unless I badly misunderstood it) that IS the core of the argument to which I first replied: Kubiak's few successes were SOLELY with (so vicariously through) Shanny, as demonstrated by his consistent failure without Shanny. So I pointed out that could as easily cut the other way, as Shanny hasn't exactly polished his own Canton bust anywhere he lacked Kubiak. Even back to his OC SB victory in SF (already defending champ after winning its 4th) he "relied" on his QB coach (i.e. Gary Kubiak) as much as any OC does. Maybe more, given Kubiak and Youngs shared proclivity for scrambling.

Seems that the success Kubiak has is when Shanahan was calling the plays. Maybe they work well together, who knows. Every coach looks better with a HoF QB behind center, just as HoF QBs need good coaching. But not every good coordinator makes a good HC. Wade is one of the very very best in the NFL at being DC, but he was a terrible HC.

Look at the douch in *NE (oops sorry, there is definintely more than one douche in *NE, let me be moe specific... *McDouch). He sure looks good as an OC in *NE but failed miserably as an HC in Denver and as an OC in St. Louis. He needs Belicheck and Brady.

BroncoJoe
09-26-2015, 10:24 AM
Just curious, Rav - who would you have hired? I get you're not sold on Kubiak.

Ravage!!!
09-26-2015, 12:25 PM
Just curious, Rav - who would you have hired? I get you're not sold on Kubiak.

That's a great question, joe. I don't know right off the top of my head, to be honest. I probably had some names after the season last year, and if I did research I could probably come up with those names again. Doesn't matter, though. We'll never know if they would have been the right hire or not. Everything would have been speculation and guess...and if you are a big fan of Kubiak, would be a name to simply tear apart as part of those guesses.

Even Kubiak hasn't had time in Denver to say is a "bad" choice. I'm not even saying that. I just feel like the familiarity with his name and history here has given him more of an emotional "want" than anything else, if that makes sense.

Joel
09-26-2015, 01:41 PM
To be fair, even Joe Gibbs second run didnt amount to anything either. A HC's success doesnt just hinge on their coaching abilities alone, other factors play a part as well.
No doubt, and I've always believed Washingtons problem under Snyder IS Snyder, not either of two coaches who've won multiple SBs. They're not exactly a juggernaut without Shanny either.


Yeah... bad calls is bad calls.

I still like that call: I've long advocated bombs on 2nd and short because 1) a minimal conversion doesn't move the ball much, 2) even short runs are much harder against a D expecting one, 3) bombs are much easier against a D NOT expecting one, so 2nd and short is the ultimate "run to establish the pass," 4) even a failed bomb leaves one (and potentially two) more chance(s) to convert and 5) "if your line can't gain 2 yds in as many tries, it should choose a new career." That also goes for THREE tries.

Kubiak did what every offensive player BEGS to do on short 4th downs, trusting his boys for at least BELOW AVERAGE performance: They let him down, and I doubt he let that pass.


Seems that the success Kubiak has is when Shanahan was calling the plays. Maybe they work well together, who knows. Every coach looks better with a HoF QB behind center, just as HoF QBs need good coaching. But not every good coordinator makes a good HC. Wade is one of the very very best in the NFL at being DC, but he was a terrible HC.
If one accepts that Kubiak was a failure in Houston and last years Baltimore offense succeeded because of Harbaughs genius, sure. THIS one strongly rejects both positions, but reasonable men can differ. I'd agree Kubiak and Shanny form a whole greater than the sum of its parts, if that's where you're going.


Look at the douch in *NE (oops sorry, there is definintely more than one douche in *NE, let me be moe specific... *McDouch). He sure looks good as an OC in *NE but failed miserably as an HC in Denver and as an OC in St. Louis. He needs Belicheck and Brady.

Yeah, but all their asterisks are why I never use any Cheatriot as evidence of anything (except that cheating ever prospers in the NFL.) McDumbass' career elsewhere reinforces that, too.

Ravage!!!
09-26-2015, 02:54 PM
Kubiak did what every offensive player BEGS to do on short 4th downs, trusting his boys for at least BELOW AVERAGE performance: They let him down, and I doubt he let that pass.

Never let the players nor the crowd sway your decisions. As a coach, you are supposed to make the smart choices for the game. Terrible timing, terrible call. I would make the SAME statement had we succeeded in that conversion, as I was saying it before it was attempted. After the time out, and they came out again to try and run an offensvie play.... I was just blown away by the stupidness of that move.


If one accepts that Kubiak was a failure in Houston and last years Baltimore offense succeeded because of Harbaughs genius, sure. THIS one strongly rejects both positions, but reasonable men can differ. I'd agree Kubiak and Shanny form a whole greater than the sum of its parts, if that's where you're going.
I'm a bit confused as to why Shanahan is brought up, to be honest. But yes, I believe Kubiak was a failure in Houston...and I don't know what being the OC in Baltimore has to do with him being an HC. Kubiak has proved to be a good OC while having a strong/good HC at the helm. But he hasn't proved to be a good choice to man that helm, yet, imo.

Joel
09-26-2015, 04:46 PM
Never let the players nor the crowd sway your decisions. As a coach, you are supposed to make the smart choices for the game. Terrible timing, terrible call. I would make the SAME statement had we succeeded in that conversion, as I was saying it before it was attempted. After the time out, and they came out again to try and run an offensvie play.... I was just blown away by the stupidness of that move.

Oh, I agree no coach should let the players or fans tell him how to do his job, and don't think Kubiak did: It was the right call because it shouldn't take a pro offense 4 tries to get 2 yds, and ANY pro line should run for >½ yd/att. But the near certainty Kubiak CHOSE to do what nearly every player out there WANTED to do is just one more reason they should've found a way to succeed in 3 tries: They couldn't, and that's on their inability to do THEIR jobs, not Kubiak expecting them to do it at least ONCE in 3 straight tries. Again: >½ yd/att; that's hardly an unreasonable demand.

Also, statistically, going for 4th and <6 ANYWHERE on the field scores more points than punting or kicking a FG. Good luck finding a coach to go for it on 4th and 5 at his own goal line (even though punting to his 30-40 doesn't protect his end zone much better,) but that's what the sum total of the concrete factual record says, and has for decades. Statistically, we still had a 50/50 shot of being the next team to score even after KC got the ball at their own 20, so what did a 4th and short TRY cost us compared to a FG TRY? Both had good odds, but the conversion's statistically worth 4 pts, not 3.

It'd be different if we were talking about taking points off the board, because a sure 3 beats a likely 7. But a 37 yd FG's far from a sure thing (ask Scott Norwood) and 4th and 2's far from hopeless.


I'm a bit confused as to why Shanahan is brought up, to be honest. But yes, I believe Kubiak was a failure in Houston...and I don't know what being the OC in Baltimore has to do with him being an HC. Kubiak has proved to be a good OC while having a strong/good HC at the helm. But he hasn't proved to be a good choice to man that helm, yet, imo.

Shanahan's brought up for 3 reasons:

1) Kubiak won 2 SBs as Shannys OC (and another as his QBs coach) and OC performance is very relevant (though not decisive) for HC performance.
2) Both have been head coaches, on multiple teams.
3) Neither has won a SB as head coach EXCEPT together, when they were 3-0 in SBs.

That makes their relative abilities hard to separate, because they repeatedly achieved the greatest possible NFL success together, but never separately. That said, Shannys solo campaigns had far more components of success than a 4th year expansion teams roster, yet achieved far LESS in MORE opportunities:

HC Shanahan-Kubiak: Two winning seasons, one playoff appearance and an 0-1 postseason record in 13 years. He only had TWO losing seasons with
HC Kubiak-Shanahan: Three winning seasons, two playoff appearances and a 2-2 postseason record in 8 years.

Further, Shanahan only had ONE losing season in 11 years with Kubiak, but the team immediately dropped from a 13-3 AFCCG host to 9-7 when Kubiak left, and that was its LAST winning season before firing Shanny after two more years. Still better than Shannys record away from Denver teams Kubiak helped build: ONE winning and FIVE losing seasons in six years.

Again, none of that's to say Shanny's inferior to his subordinate (and certainly not incompetent,) only that Kubiak's not "inferior to his superior." I personally think them similar: Offensive geniuses whose Ds should get restraining orders keeping them 100 yards away at all times. Thank heaven for Wade; the Kubiak-Phillips combination's lethal (the Bayou City humbly accepts your due thanks for that, too. :tongue:)

Ravage!!!
09-27-2015, 10:59 AM
Oh, I agree no coach should let the players or fans tell him how to do his job, and don't think Kubiak did: It was the right call because it shouldn't take a pro offense 4 tries to get 2 yds, and ANY pro line should run for >½ yd/att. But the near certainty Kubiak CHOSE to do what nearly every player out there WANTED to do is just one more reason they should've found a way to succeed in 3 tries: They couldn't, and that's on their inability to do THEIR jobs, not Kubiak expecting them to do it at least ONCE in 3 straight tries. Again: >½ yd/att; that's hardly an unreasonable demand.

Also, statistically, going for 4th and <6 ANYWHERE on the field scores more points than punting or kicking a FG. Good luck finding a coach to go for it on 4th and 5 at his own goal line (even though punting to his 30-40 doesn't protect his end zone much better,) but that's what the sum total of the concrete factual record says, and has for decades. Statistically, we still had a 50/50 shot of being the next team to score even after KC got the ball at their own 20, so what did a 4th and short TRY cost us compared to a FG TRY? Both had good odds, but the conversion's statistically worth 4 pts, not 3.

It'd be different if we were talking about taking points off the board, because a sure 3 beats a likely 7. But a 37 yd FG's far from a sure thing (ask Scott Norwood) and 4th and 2's far from hopeless.



Shanahan's brought up for 3 reasons:

1) Kubiak won 2 SBs as Shannys OC (and another as his QBs coach) and OC performance is very relevant (though not decisive) for HC performance.
2) Both have been head coaches, on multiple teams.
3) Neither has won a SB as head coach EXCEPT together, when they were 3-0 in SBs.

That makes their relative abilities hard to separate, because they repeatedly achieved the greatest possible NFL success together, but never separately. That said, Shannys solo campaigns had far more components of success than a 4th year expansion teams roster, yet achieved far LESS in MORE opportunities:

HC Shanahan-Kubiak: Two winning seasons, one playoff appearance and an 0-1 postseason record in 13 years. He only had TWO losing seasons with
HC Kubiak-Shanahan: Three winning seasons, two playoff appearances and a 2-2 postseason record in 8 years.

Further, Shanahan only had ONE losing season in 11 years with Kubiak, but the team immediately dropped from a 13-3 AFCCG host to 9-7 when Kubiak left, and that was its LAST winning season before firing Shanny after two more years. Still better than Shannys record away from Denver teams Kubiak helped build: ONE winning and FIVE losing seasons in six years.

Again, none of that's to say Shanny's inferior to his subordinate (and certainly not incompetent,) only that Kubiak's not "inferior to his superior." I personally think them similar: Offensive geniuses whose Ds should get restraining orders keeping them 100 yards away at all times. Thank heaven for Wade; the Kubiak-Phillips combination's lethal (the Bayou City humbly accepts your due thanks for that, too. :tongue:)

You keep wanting to give credit to Kubiak when with Shanahan, yet shanahan proved to have success without Kubiak as an HC and an OC. Kubiak hasn't proved to be a good HC yet. I'm judging Kubiak PURELY on his HC coaching tenure, as I don't see his OC resume as being relevant to the discussion on grading him as an HC. You keep wanting to show me just how golly-gee good he was with Shanahan by pointing out stats that have a lot more factors involved than just coaching changes, and you know that but want to use it.

If/when I judge Shanahan, I judge him on what he did in Denver as the HC. By the personnel he brought in, drafted, and coached. As that is the most familiar. When I'm grading Kubiak as an HC, I'm using his time in Houston (as its been his only HC job). Using his time as an OC in Denver has no relevance to being the HC.... not to me anyway. MANY coaches have had great success as coordinators and can't do as well as an HC....as I pointed out in just one single example in an above post. ONCE Kubiak has been Denver's HC for a while, then I will judge him on his job done HERE, and not somewhere else that it doesn't matter.

Shanahan was well known for being the "mastermind" in offensive sets and game plans. He was considered to be an offensive genius, and even coaches like Belicheck would point that out to you if asked. I've never heard that kind of statements about Kubiak, and certainly not while he was an HC in Houston. Time is still on his side, though. He has lots of time to improve and learn from his past experiences, and many coaches get better as they move on from their first team. So I'm not saying there is no 'hope' that he'll be good. Hell, I absolutely DO hope that he'll be great! But right now, knowing (feeling what I know) about him from what I've seen from his performance in Houston.... I don't have "high" hopes of that becoming the case.

That being said.... a coach doesn't have to be "great" to win a Super Bowl.

silkamilkamonico
09-27-2015, 03:14 PM
People need to stop bringing up Kubiak's credentials as an OC. He's not Denver's OC. He's Denver's HC. Big f'n difference in any type of argument. He's also only won as an OC with HoF QB's. Pretty sure McDaniels could even win a SuperBowl with a HoF QB. Wait - he's won 3 or 4.

GEM
09-27-2015, 03:48 PM
Kubiak has coached 2 wins and he's being vilified here. :laugh: Funny shit.

Joel
09-27-2015, 04:10 PM
People need to stop bringing up Kubiak's credentials as an OC. He's not Denver's OC. He's Denver's HC. Big f'n difference in any type of argument. He's also only won as an OC with HoF QB's. Pretty sure McDaniels could even win a SuperBowl with a HoF QB. Wait - he's won 3 or 4.
Griese, Plummer, Schaub and Flacco are HoFers? Unless you meant SBs, but lots of HoF coaches have failed to win SBs with HoF QBs (e.g. Shula was 2-1 with the OTHER Griese, but 0-2 with Unitas and Marino.)

Kubiak has coached 2 wins and he's being vilified here. :laugh: Funny shit.
Worst. Undefeated. EVER! :tongue:

Joel
09-27-2015, 04:36 PM
You keep wanting to give credit to Kubiak when with Shanahan, yet shanahan proved to have success without Kubiak as an HC and an OC.

TWO winning seasons out of THIRTEEN (and an 0-1 playoff record) is "success"? Yet Kubiak's a failure because he "only" managed one MORE winning season (and infinitely more playoff wins) in HALF the time with (a far worse) expansion franchise? Bit contradictory, no?


Kubiak hasn't proved to be a good HC yet. I'm judging Kubiak PURELY on his HC coaching tenure, as I don't see his OC resume as being relevant to the discussion on grading him as an HC. You keep wanting to show me just how golly-gee good he was with Shanahan by pointing out stats that have a lot more factors involved than just coaching changes, and you know that but want to use it.

Boiling those far more complex stats down to simply a verdict on the HC was fine for Kubiak; the "lot more factors involved than just coaching changes" were just "excuses" THEN: What changed?


If/when I judge Shanahan, I judge him on what he did in Denver as the HC. By the personnel he brought in, drafted, and coached. As that is the most familiar. When I'm grading Kubiak as an HC, I'm using his time in Houston (as its been his only HC job). Using his time as an OC in Denver has no relevance to being the HC.... not to me anyway. MANY coaches have had great success as coordinators and can't do as well as an HC....as I pointed out in just one single example in an above post. ONCE Kubiak has been Denver's HC for a while, then I will judge him on his job done HERE, and not somewhere else that it doesn't matter.

Shanahan was well known for being the "mastermind" in offensive sets and game plans. He was considered to be an offensive genius, and even coaches like Belicheck would point that out to you if asked. I've never heard that kind of statements about Kubiak, and certainly not while he was an HC in Houston. Time is still on his side, though. He has lots of time to improve and learn from his past experiences, and many coaches get better as they move on from their first team. So I'm not saying there is no 'hope' that he'll be good. Hell, I absolutely DO hope that he'll be great! But right now, knowing (feeling what I know) about him from what I've seen from his performance in Houston.... I don't have "high" hopes of that becoming the case.

That being said.... a coach doesn't have to be "great" to win a Super Bowl.

Coordinator performance=/=HC performance, no, but it's the best indicator short of actual HC performance: What was EVERY HCs job before becoming a HC, and why'd they get promoted?

Coordinator performance isn't synonymous with head coaching performance, but IS closely related, closer than anything else. Head coaches have final authority over O/DCs AND responsibility for TWICE as much of the team, a quantum leap in difficulty many coordinators can't handle, especially since half the duties are completely outside the bailiwick of most. Kubiak's a trainwreck without a good DC, and Wade without a good OC--but Shanny's awful without a good DC, too, and does a lousy job of finding them; Kubes was at least smart enough to grab onto Wade with both hands and never let go.

I'm forced to consider Kubiaks OC record because as long as we so strongly disagree on his SOLE HC record we remain at an impasse on it. Again:

First time HC taking a 4-12 fledgling franchise to 3 winning seasons, 2 division titles and 2 playoff wins in 7 years=failure
HC takes 3 different teams (one fresh off hosting the AFCCG) to 2 winning seasons, 1 division title and 0 playoff wins in 13 years=success.

Anyone who accepts those two statements can't be dissuaded buy anything anyone else says, so it's pointless to debate. Sure, Shanny had amazing success with the '94 '9ers and '95-'05 Broncos, but one of "a lot more factors involved than just coaching changes" was the coaching CONTINUITY of having Kubiak as a coordinator in all those successes. The only way to separately compare them IS separately, and Kubiaks HC record without Shanny blows the doors off Shannys HC record without Kubiak. And I don't think Shanny's a bad HC: I just think Kubiak's very good, maybe even BETTER.

silkamilkamonico
09-28-2015, 12:21 AM
Griese, Plummer, Schaub and Flacco are HoFers? Unless you meant SBs, but lots of HoF coaches have failed to win SBs with HoF QBs (e.g. Shula was 2-1 with the OTHER Griese, but 0-2 with Unitas and Marino.)

Worst. Undefeated. EVER! :tongue:

I'm glad we can both agree that Kubiak has been a far better OC than a HC up to this point in his career.

Joel
09-28-2015, 01:40 AM
I'm glad we can both agree that Kubiak has been a far better OC than a HC up to this point in his career.
That doesn't follow: None of the teams where he was OC were 4-12 dumpster fires that hadn't even EXISTED 4 years earlier. And had guys like Elway, Steve Young and even Flacco rather than Schaub. Ask Bill O'Brien if he'd rather have the Texans team Kubiak inherited or the one he bequeathed and I guarantee he'll instantly choose the one Kubiak built and trained.

Valar Morghulis
09-28-2015, 02:54 PM
Great call on 4th down.

Calls like that set the tone and attitude of the whole team and would never have happened last year. I love what Kubes has brought to town.

Timmy!
09-28-2015, 02:59 PM
Great call on 4th down.

Calls like that set the tone and attitude of the whole team and would never have happened last year. I love what Kubes has brought to town.

We have huevos now.
http://i.imgur.com/5LEyUsW.gif

Valar Morghulis
09-28-2015, 03:02 PM
We have huevos now.
http://i.imgur.com/5LEyUsW.gif

yeah - big ones!

(i had to google huevos - thanks urban dictionary)

TXBRONC
09-28-2015, 03:56 PM
People need to stop bringing up Kubiak's credentials as an OC. He's not Denver's OC. He's Denver's HC. Big f'n difference in any type of argument. He's also only won as an OC with HoF QB's. Pretty sure McDaniels could even win a SuperBowl with a HoF QB. Wait- he's won 3 or 4.

McDaniels as an OC has been to three Super Bowls with a HoF quarterback and he's 1-2. :coffee:

tripp
09-28-2015, 04:04 PM
Who calls the plays, Kubiak or Dennison? If it is Kubes, what does Dennison do exactly?

MOtorboat
09-28-2015, 04:10 PM
Who calls the plays, Kubiak or Dennison? If it is Kubes, what does Dennison do exactly?

He looks pretty.

Joel
09-28-2015, 04:30 PM
Who calls the plays, Kubiak or Dennison? If it is Kubes, what does Dennison do exactly?
While mostly speculation, I suspect Dennisons main role is preparing players to EXECUTE ANYTHING Kubiak calls. Remember, Dennison has deep, broad elite experience in all three phases of the game: As a player, he was a LB on a pair of Broncos SB teams, and he's coached STs, QBs and lines, plus been OC twice. He's also never worked ANYWHERE without Kubiak, but if this thing ends in a SB win any time soon (maybe even if it doesn't) one bittersweet worry of mine is that he could follow Kubiaks lead another way: Parlaying a SB-winning Denver coordinator resume into his first HC spot, on another team.

Again though, it's like Shanny and Kubiak: Until/unless we've got a significant sample of their respective records apart, we can't know how much each contributes to the others success.

MOtorboat
09-28-2015, 04:35 PM
What does Shanahan have to do with anything?

dogfish
09-28-2015, 04:36 PM
Who calls the plays, Kubiak or Dennison? If it is Kubes, what does Dennison do exactly?

installing the offensive gameplan each week. . . and most likely play design. . . there's a lot more to running an offense than just game day playcalling. . . he probably helps with half-time adjustments as well. . .

does anybody know if rico sits up in the booth? that one i'm not sure about. . .

TXBRONC
09-28-2015, 04:38 PM
installing the offensive gameplan each week. . . and most likely play design. . . there's a lot more to running an offense than just game day playcalling. . . he probably helps with half-time adjustments as well. . .

does anybody know if rico sits up in the booth? that one i'm not sure about. . .

I'm pretty sure Dennison sits up in the booth.

tripp
09-28-2015, 04:54 PM
While mostly speculation, I suspect Dennisons main role is preparing players to EXECUTE ANYTHING Kubiak calls. Remember, Dennison has deep, broad elite experience in all three phases of the game: As a player, he was a LB on a pair of Broncos SB teams, and he's coached STs, QBs and lines, plus been OC twice. He's also never worked ANYWHERE without Kubiak, but if this thing ends in a SB win any time soon (maybe even if it doesn't) one bittersweet worry of mine is that he could follow Kubiaks lead another way: Parlaying a SB-winning Denver coordinator resume into his first HC spot, on another team.

Again though, it's like Shanny and Kubiak: Until/unless we've got a significant sample of their respective records apart, we can't know how much each contributes to the others success.


installing the offensive gameplan each week. . . and most likely play design. . . there's a lot more to running an offense than just game day playcalling. . . he probably helps with half-time adjustments as well. . .

does anybody know if rico sits up in the booth? that one i'm not sure about. . .


Ahh gotcha. Wasn't insulting Dennison or anything, just curious what his role was if he wasn't calling plays.

Joel
09-28-2015, 05:11 PM
What does Shanahan have to do with anything?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What%27s+an+analogy%3F

Joel
09-28-2015, 05:13 PM
Ahh gotcha. Wasn't insulting Dennison or anything, just curious what his role was if he wasn't calling plays.
It was a good and fair question, if only because the answers showed the fallacy of saying, "Everyone knows the Mastermind called our champions plays; his idiot OC just collected a fat check to take up space."

BroncoJoe
09-28-2015, 05:15 PM
installing the offensive gameplan each week. . . and most likely play design. . . there's a lot more to running an offense than just game day playcalling. . . he probably helps with half-time adjustments as well. . .

does anybody know if rico sits up in the booth? that one i'm not sure about. . .


I'm pretty sure Dennison sits up in the booth.

From earlier in the year:


https://twitter.com/MaseDenver/status/568083394296299520

Poet
09-28-2015, 06:16 PM
I would like to take this time to say the following - Kubiak is vastly overrated by his supporters, and that BroncoJoe is a stud.

Joel
09-28-2015, 06:29 PM
I would like to take this time to say the following - Kubiak is vastly overrated by his supporters, and that BroncoJoe is a stud.
It's entirely possible you mistakenly swapped the correct descriptions. :tongue:

Poet
09-28-2015, 06:31 PM
BroncoJoe is not overrated, you heathen!

Joel
09-28-2015, 07:14 PM
BroncoJoe is not overrated, you heathen!
Fair enough, but one true and one false statement average out to a possible compound statement, right? ;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-28-2015, 09:26 PM
I would like to take this time to say the following - Kubiak is vastly overrated by his supporters, and that BroncoJoe is a stud.

I will admit, in spite of the fallacy, your delivery is very sexy.

Joel
09-28-2015, 09:43 PM
I will admit, in spite of the fallacy, your delivery is very sexy.
Does that make him a sex symbol, or just a fallic symbol? *runs*

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-28-2015, 09:46 PM
Does that make him a sex symbol, or just a fallic symbol? *runs*

It means Little Red Riding Hood better hide the gin.

Joel
09-28-2015, 09:59 PM
It means Little Red Riding Hood better hide the gin.
*runs faster*