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View Full Version : The Good and the Bad: Week 1



BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 06:28 PM
These were fun threads last year so here we go again.

GOOD:

The whole defense. Can't say enough about this unit. The absolutely won the game for us, no doubt. Namely Talib, Stewart, and our pass rush.

McManus. He appears to have worked out whatever kinks he had last year. Dude is money.

Hillman. The absolute hero on the clock killing drive at the end. He might challenge CJ for the starting job at this rate.

Sanders. The only bright spot in our passing game today. He was a gashing them all day long.

BAD:

The o-line. Woof these guys are bad. I know it's early in the season but man our offense is in trouble if they don't straighten things out.

Manning. He was hot garbage today. I do realize he had very little time to do anything, but even plays like the bootleg where he had all day he was just not on target. He has to play better.

CJ. Didn't want to put him on this list because of how the o-line played, but Hillman came in and killed it behind the same o-line, so CJ probably could have done more.

Pretty short list today since I grouped a bunch of units together, but this is all that comes to mind right now.

Bronco4ever
09-13-2015, 06:30 PM
I'd rather the offense looks garbage now and not at the end of the season. Hopefully we peak at the end of the year. Just my wishful thinking.

Valar Morghulis
09-13-2015, 06:31 PM
I agree with everything you wrote wave.

I would add

Good, I like Bruton

Bad, my nerves are shot after that finish

UnderArmour
09-13-2015, 06:36 PM
I just don't see Manning as the best QB on our roster anymore. It's time for Brock to start. We absolutely cannot go through 16 games with a QB that cannot throw beyond 15 yards. He picked off RIGHT where he left off at the end of last year. He's just not a playmaker anymore. I don't know if it's his neck, if it's his thigh, or if it's his arm, but he is definitely done. At the end of last year, I thought this might be temporary and he'd come back, but it never happened. Then today, we see the exactly thing we saw at the end of last year. He just doesn't have it anymore. The defense should not have to bail this team out every week; without that Talib pick 6, this team had no chance of driving down on a Raven's D for 7 points. Next week isn't going to be any easier, either.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 06:37 PM
I have to say I was in midseason form today, I wasn't nervous at all.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 06:51 PM
I just don't see Manning as the best QB on our roster anymore. It's time for Brock to start. We absolutely cannot go through 16 games with a QB that cannot throw beyond 15 yards. He picked off RIGHT where he left off at the end of last year. He's just not a playmaker anymore. I don't know if it's his neck, if it's his thigh, or if it's his arm, but he is definitely done. At the end of last year, I thought this might be temporary and he'd come back, but it never happened. Then today, we see the exactly thing we saw at the end of last year. He just doesn't have it anymore. The defense should not have to bail this team out every week; without that Talib pick 6, this team had no chance of driving down on a Raven's D for 7 points. Next week isn't going to be any easier, either.

I don't think he's any worse for wear than he was this time last year, he nailed a deep out to Sanders and had enough arm to overthrow Sander twice on deep passes. He's thoroughly out of sync, no denying that, I think his brilliance through the years has been his timing with his receivers in HIS offense and those days are gone, he's got to learn a new way to QB.

He may not get it together, but the suggestion of benching Peyton Manning in week 1 has less than zero chance of ever happening. The quick trigger is comical.

But hey, let me be the first to suggest that Elway/Kubiak are sabatoging Manning career because they're jealous.

underrated29
09-13-2015, 06:55 PM
Dayum. Shots fired ^

A lot of truth too

Valar Morghulis
09-13-2015, 06:56 PM
Dayum. Shots fired ^ A lot of truth too

I especially like the jealousy part

tripp
09-13-2015, 06:56 PM
CJ Anderson didn't have the explosiveness he usually possesses, and he didn't look like the bowling ball bouncing off tacklers, not like last year. Obviously, O-line was putrid today to say the least so I'm not going to worry too much about CJ. He did look a little beaten up as he was clutching his abdomen on our final drive. I think Hillman and CJ will be a great 1-2 punch once the O-line settles down.

Peyton looked shaky, and made some bad throws when he did have time in the pocket. The O-line did not help us out at all until our final drive where we ate about 11 mins of the clock with good run blocking. I'm not sure how we fix the O-line by Thursdays game against KC, but something needs to happen, I can't imagine us leaving it and hoping we have a better result in KC, where I would argue KC's defence is better than Baltimore's.

gregbroncs
09-13-2015, 06:57 PM
I don't think he's any worse for wear than he was this time last year, he nailed a deep out to Sanders and had enough arm to overthrow Sander twice on deep passes. He's thoroughly out of sync, no denying that, I think his brilliance through the years has been his timing with his receivers in HIS offense and those days are gone, he's got to learn a new way to QB.

He may not get it together, but the suggestion of benching Peyton Manning in week 1 has less than zero chance of ever happening. The quick trigger is comical.

But hey, let me be the first to suggest that Elway/Kubiak are sabatoging Manning career because they're jealous.I hope you are correct in that it's a timing issue. But today he was trash. The line was bad but not as bad as he made them look IMO. I am worried that Manning is done. His accuracy is not where it should be. He has no balls in the pocket, any hint he may take a hit and he quits on the play. He no longer seems to be able to out think a defense. I am worried, I'm not ready to give up on him but I've seen nothing from him since mid season last year that suggests he is more than a below average QB anymore. I'm glad we have an awesome defense because we are going to need it early this year.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-13-2015, 07:00 PM
The Good: The defense. That about sums it up. They can be great if they can stay healthy. They looked like the 85 Bears in the first half. They were all over the Ravens.

The Bad: The offense. I'm not gonna say that Peyton is playing poorly or even the line is playing poorly, but they're definitely out of sync out there. Remember, Peyton took days off in the offseason, DT got a late start, and ES was out for the preseason with injury. Peyton and ES hook up on those deep throws way more often then not. It comes from not practicing together.

They just need to practice together and gel. The Oline needs to work better as a unit. Almost every sack on Peyton was a delayed blitz today. The young guys just couldn't figure it out. I expected the running game to struggle vs Baltimore. Their front 7 is huge and strong. Everyone struggles to run against them.

Shazam!
09-13-2015, 07:00 PM
New System + Rust = Shaky Peyton Manning

Give Peyton time. I won't say he's done after one game. Peyton hasn't been practicing as much either. Offense needs time to get in sync and get rolling.

The OLine going back to last season was horrendous... he's rushing things a bit because he's afraid of getting crushed I think. Give him some time.

UnderArmour
09-13-2015, 07:02 PM
I don't think he's any worse for wear than he was this time last year, he nailed a deep out to Sanders and had enough arm to overthrow Sander twice on deep passes. He's thoroughly out of sync, no denying that, I think his brilliance through the years has been his timing with his receivers in HIS offense and those days are gone, he's got to learn a new way to QB.

He may not get it together, but the suggestion of benching Peyton Manning in week 1 has less than zero chance of ever happening. The quick trigger is comical.

But hey, let me be the first to suggest that Elway/Kubiak are sabatoging Manning career because they're jealous.

Peyton Manning or not, 4.4 yards per attempt isn't good enough. He just didn't look like he could throw beyond 15 yards, and I don't buy this whole argument of missing via overthrow=being able to throw deep passes. The accuracy beyond 15 yards wasn't here, and it hasn't been there. I don't care if it's Peyton Manning, if he can't play, he can't play. And today, he couldn't play. The end of last year, notably the Indy game, he couldn't play. Thanks for the memories, but football is a team sport. A team shouldn't have to carry their quarterback every week. I just don't see him turning it around.

This time, I think he's done. He's not a rookie QB, "giving him time" isn't the answer. Manning knows how to play football in any scheme. Physically, it just doesn't seem like he can anymore. I'm ready for Kubiak to pull the plug.

TXBRONC
09-13-2015, 07:10 PM
These were fun threads last year so here we go again.

GOOD:

The whole defense. Can't say enough about this unit. The absolutely won the game for us, no doubt. Namely Talib, Stewart, and our pass rush.

McManus. He appears to have worked out whatever kinks he had last year. Dude is money.

Hillman. The absolute hero on the clock killing drive at the end. He might challenge CJ for the starting job at this rate.

Sanders. The only bright spot in our passing game today. He was a gashing them all day long.

BAD:

The o-line. Woof these guys are bad. I know it's early in the season but man our offense is in trouble if they don't straighten things out.

Manning. He was hot garbage today. I do realize he had very little time to do anything, but even plays like the bootleg where he had all day he was just not on target. He has to play better.

CJ. Didn't want to put him on this list because of how the o-line played, but Hillman came in and killed it behind the same o-line, so CJ probably could have done more.

Pretty short list today since I grouped a bunch of units together, but this is all that comes to mind right now.

The offensive struggled no doubt and there were moments where they played well. That last drive was one of them. Going up against the Ravens defense is no easy assignment. The offensive touchdown that Denver missed on were because of overthrows. We figured the offense was going struggle today and that it would take the defense pulling Denver across the finish line.

CrazyHorse
09-13-2015, 07:11 PM
Manning's arm looked fine. His deep throws looked nice, they just weren't on the target. His overall accuracy seems off, even on the short throws. I think his confidence was shaken since he doesn't fully trust the offensive line. I was disappointed in CJ though. Hillman looked better than him today.

TXBRONC
09-13-2015, 07:13 PM
I have to say I was in midseason form today, I wasn't nervous at all.

Yeah how many Depends Underwear did you go through today? :D

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 07:26 PM
Yeah how many Depends Underwear did you go through today? :D

I watched from the comfort of my heated toilet seat.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 07:32 PM
Peyton Manning or not, 4.4 yards per attempt isn't good enough. He just didn't look like he could throw beyond 15 yards, and I don't buy this whole argument of missing via overthrow=being able to throw deep passes. The accuracy beyond 15 yards wasn't here, and it hasn't been there. I don't care if it's Peyton Manning, if he can't play, he can't play. And today, he couldn't play. The end of last year, notably the Indy game, he couldn't play. Thanks for the memories, but football is a team sport. A team shouldn't have to carry their quarterback every week. I just don't see him turning it around.

This time, I think he's done. He's not a rookie QB, "giving him time" isn't the answer. Manning knows how to play football in any scheme. Physically, it just doesn't seem like he can anymore. I'm ready for Kubiak to pull the plug.

He showed he could hit 15 yards down field though, in the very game you said he hasn't showed he could hit 15 yards.

You may be right and the good thing about predicting the end so soon is sooner or later you'll be right. You get to be the first to say "I told you so".

Btw, we're having this discussion during the same week that Joe Flacco didn't have a play longer than 15 yards.

Shazam!
09-13-2015, 07:39 PM
I think all the reps in preseason and practice with Oz hurt. Peyton is a very practice and study-centric QB. Too early to say he's done with a OLine that's playing like Cleveland.

VonDoom
09-13-2015, 07:42 PM
These were fun threads last year so here we go again.

GOOD:

The whole defense. Can't say enough about this unit. The absolutely won the game for us, no doubt. Namely Talib, Stewart, and our pass rush.

McManus. He appears to have worked out whatever kinks he had last year. Dude is money.

Hillman. The absolute hero on the clock killing drive at the end. He might challenge CJ for the starting job at this rate.

Sanders. The only bright spot in our passing game today. He was a gashing them all day long.

BAD:

The o-line. Woof these guys are bad. I know it's early in the season but man our offense is in trouble if they don't straighten things out.

Manning. He was hot garbage today. I do realize he had very little time to do anything, but even plays like the bootleg where he had all day he was just not on target. He has to play better.

CJ. Didn't want to put him on this list because of how the o-line played, but Hillman came in and killed it behind the same o-line, so CJ probably could have done more.

Pretty short list today since I grouped a bunch of units together, but this is all that comes to mind right now.

Hard to argue with any of these points, Wave. I'm not going to knock CJ yet, but Hillman definitely was the spark plug in this game.


I don't think he's any worse for wear than he was this time last year, he nailed a deep out to Sanders and had enough arm to overthrow Sander twice on deep passes. He's thoroughly out of sync, no denying that, I think his brilliance through the years has been his timing with his receivers in HIS offense and those days are gone, he's got to learn a new way to QB.

He may not get it together, but the suggestion of benching Peyton Manning in week 1 has less than zero chance of ever happening. The quick trigger is comical.

But hey, let me be the first to suggest that Elway/Kubiak are sabatoging Manning career because they're jealous.

I think "out of sync" is much more likely to be the explanation right now than "can't play anymore." The timing was off and he feels the pressure. As I said earlier in the thread, he stood in there a lot in the first half, but that's going to wear on a 39 year old who isn't used to being sacked. If/when the line improves, Manning will be more comfortable and therefore better.


CJ Anderson didn't have the explosiveness he usually possesses, and he didn't look like the bowling ball bouncing off tacklers, not like last year. Obviously, O-line was putrid today to say the least so I'm not going to worry too much about CJ. He did look a little beaten up as he was clutching his abdomen on our final drive. I think Hillman and CJ will be a great 1-2 punch once the O-line settles down.

Peyton looked shaky, and made some bad throws when he did have time in the pocket. The O-line did not help us out at all until our final drive where we ate about 11 mins of the clock with good run blocking. I'm not sure how we fix the O-line by Thursdays game against KC, but something needs to happen, I can't imagine us leaving it and hoping we have a better result in KC, where I would argue KC's defence is better than Baltimore's.

I'm going to give CJ a pass so far, as I said. We know what he can do, so I'm not going to judge him based on one bad game. He did look like he got hurt a couple of times and his durability over an entire season is a concern to me. But that's why we need RB depth, and so far, that seems to be okay.


New System + Rust = Shaky Peyton Manning

Give Peyton time. I won't say he's done after one game. Peyton hasn't been practicing as much either. Offense needs time to get in sync and get rolling.

The OLine going back to last season was horrendous... he's rushing things a bit because he's afraid of getting crushed I think. Give him some time.

Pretty much where I'm at with this. We can't judge a season by this one game, though there are obviously things that need to improve. I'm happy we escaped with a win.

Slick
09-13-2015, 07:44 PM
Yeah, his arm strength isn't what bothers me. It's the fact that he can't move his feet or throw on the run. The playoffs will be good defenses that will force him of his spot. He's not going to have a nice, clean pocket to throw from in January.

Manning coming back gave Elway two choices. Get a running game and get more aggressive on defense or invest heavily in the offensive line. One comes at the expense of the other. You can't have it all.

Northman
09-13-2015, 07:54 PM
Im actually going to say it. Im worried about Peyton this year. Even with time today he was off and it looks like a continuation of the end of last year.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 07:55 PM
Yeah, his arm strength isn't what bothers me. It's the fact that he can't move his feet or throw on the run. The playoffs will be good defenses that will force him of his spot. He's not going to have a nice, clean pocket to throw from in January.

Manning coming back gave Elway two choices. Get a running game and get more aggressive on defense or invest heavily in the offensive line. One comes at the expense of the other. You can't have it all.
A 2nd and 4th draft picks and an All-Pro G isn't investing in the OL?

tripp
09-13-2015, 07:56 PM
If anyone is concerned with Peyton and the Chiefs this week, just remember when we were struggling big time with Peyton towards the end of last season, we went into KC and still won. CJ Anderson was also on a tear though..

underrated29
09-13-2015, 07:56 PM
Yeah, his arm strength isn't what bothers me. It's the fact that he can't move his feet or throw on the run. The playoffs will be good defenses that will force him of his spot. He's not going to have a nice, clean pocket to throw from in January.

Manning coming back gave Elway two choices. Get a running game and get more aggressive on defense or invest heavily in the offensive line. One comes at the expense of the other. You can't have it all.


You are right. But which other defenses will we face in the playoffs better than the Ravens? Steelers? Pats*? Colts* Seahawks? Bills? Dolphins?

Only the bills, dolphins and Seahawks have defenses on par with the Ravens. The Seahawks would only be in the SB, I doubt they make 3 in a row.
The bills are even harder than the Ravens but it's doubtful they make the playoffs. The Dolphins may but we can handle them.


Who else would we face with s better defense?



Ps- jaded is baller

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 07:58 PM
Im actually going to say it. Im worried about Peyton this year. Even with time today he was off and it looks like a continuation of the end of last year.

I think the continuation from the end of last season is the way teams defend Manning, the ball is in his court and he's gotta find a way to make them pay. He may not be able to do that at this stage of his career but if he's hitting those two deep TD's to Sanders I think that goes a long way towards making them pay.

Northman
09-13-2015, 08:02 PM
I think the continuation from the end of last season is the way teams defend Manning, the ball is in his court and he's gotta find a way to make them pay. He may not be able to do that at this stage of his career but if he's hitting those two deep TD's to Sanders I think that goes a long way towards making them pay.

Yea, they talked about that today on the post game shows. Manning needs to hit those long balls so that they dont come up on the line the rest of the game. Im just worried that if he doesnt connect on those going forward that he is going to fall into the same rut and its going to just make it that harder for the defense to pull out wins. Eventually they will break if we cant get the offense figured out.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 08:03 PM
Dudes, that deep out to Sanders in the 2nd quarter went from 12 to the 35 yard line, that's a hell of a throw, tight, that's the throw they measure a QB's ability on.

The difference is the Ravens rushed 3 and let the receivers get off the LOS free, if Denver can find a way to make D's pay for playing so aggressive they'll be fine but they need the OL to grow up fast to do that, imo.

UnderArmour
09-13-2015, 08:12 PM
Dudes, that deep out to Sanders in the 2nd quarter went from 12 to the 35 yard line, that's a hell of a throw, tight, that's the throw they measure a QB's ability on.

The difference is the Ravens rushed 3 and let the receivers get off the LOS free, if Denver can find a way to make D's pay for playing so aggressive they'll be fine but they need the OL to grow up fast to do that, imo.

Meh. I hope Manning turns it around, but based on the game 4.4 yards per attempt is what I measure the QB's ability on. He continually took throws short of the down marker and hoped the receiver would convert. Manning beat nobody with his arm today.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-13-2015, 08:13 PM
You are right. But which other defenses will we face in the playoffs better than the Ravens? Steelers? Pats*? Colts* Seahawks? Bills? Dolphins?

Only the bills, dolphins and Seahawks have defenses on par with the Ravens. The Seahawks would only be in the SB, I doubt they make 3 in a row.
The bills are even harder than the Ravens but it's doubtful they make the playoffs. The Dolphins may but we can handle them.


Who else would we face with s better defense?



Ps- jaded is baller

This ^^

People are not giving Baltimore's defense nearly enough credit.

Does Joe Flacco now suck sour pickles because he had a worst game than Manning?

Is the Ravens O line hot garbage now too?

I could go to the team forum if I wanted a bunch knee jerk reactions.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 08:20 PM
Meh. I hope Manning turns it around, but based on the game 4.4 yards per attempt is what I measure the QB's ability on. He continually took throws short of the down marker and hoped the receiver would convert. Manning beat nobody with his arm today.

All good, I won't argue that he beat anybody, but I will argue that average per attempt is usually pretty poor when the completion percentage is low, I'd bet money Manning had a poor completion percentage too. I will also argue that this is a dink and dunk offense, always has been, they use ball control and try to beat you deep once they establish the run, which they failed to twice.

Jsteve01
09-13-2015, 08:20 PM
You are right. But which other defenses will we face in the playoffs better than the Ravens? Steelers? Pats*? Colts* Seahawks? Bills? Dolphins?

Only the bills, dolphins and Seahawks have defenses on par with the Ravens. The Seahawks would only be in the SB, I doubt they make 3 in a row.
The bills are even harder than the Ravens but it's doubtful they make the playoffs. The Dolphins may but we can handle them.


Who else would we face with s better defense?



Ps- jaded is baller

This ^^

People are not giving Baltimore's defense nearly enough credit.

Does Joe Flacco now suck sour pickles because he had a worst game than Manning?

Is the Ravens O line hot garbage now too?

I could go to the team forum if I wanted a bunch knee jerk reactions. agree with jaded UR and Mr Wilson. far far far too early to write Manning off. I said it early and camp thing that concerns me the most about this team is the young offensive line. Manning will be fine if they establish the run game which all keys on the offensive line. And give him more than a few seconds to set his feet when he's under center. there were a ton of blown protections today. That was on the line but also on the backs and tight ends

Northman
09-13-2015, 08:30 PM
Meh. I hope Manning turns it around, but based on the game 4.4 yards per attempt is what I measure the QB's ability on. He continually took throws short of the down marker and hoped the receiver would convert. Manning beat nobody with his arm today.

^This

The bigger problem is its this type of game where Manning needs to play his absolute best because it will be this kind of team that we face come playoff time. I wouldnt be near as concerned if we werent paying him a shit ton of money to be "the" guy.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-13-2015, 08:31 PM
^This

The bigger problem is its this type of game where Manning needs to play his absolute best because it will be this kind of team that we face come playoff time. I wouldnt be near as concerned if we werent paying him a shit ton of money to be "the" guy.

...and yet he still outplayed Flacco....maybe you're not giving the Ravens D enough credit.

Slick
09-13-2015, 08:38 PM
A 2nd and 4th draft picks and an All-Pro G isn't investing in the OL?

Not really. You bitch about o line and zone blocking more than anyone in history. Elway got lucky Mathis was still available, and he signed him so late he didn't get many reps with his new team.

So no. Your response is bullshit.

Northman
09-13-2015, 08:38 PM
...and yet he still outplayed Flacco....maybe you're not giving the Ravens D enough credit.

Either that or i over value Manning over Flacco.

underrated29
09-13-2015, 08:53 PM
Just for the record Eli manning and Tony romo are both playing worse than Peyton manning but they are playing VASTLY superior defenses.....oh wait.

Slick
09-13-2015, 09:03 PM
You are right. But which other defenses will we face in the playoffs better than the Ravens? Steelers? Pats*? Colts* Seahawks? Bills? Dolphins?

Only the bills, dolphins and Seahawks have defenses on par with the Ravens. The Seahawks would only be in the SB, I doubt they make 3 in a row.
The bills are even harder than the Ravens but it's doubtful they make the playoffs. The Dolphins may but we can handle them.


Who else would we face with s better defense?



Ps- jaded is baller

Some defenses will be better in January, some will be worse. One thing that won't change is Manning's wheels.

Look, just because I point out that flaw doesn't make me a mouthbreather, and if you choose not to see it, I guess you should just ignore me. It is a huge liability and every opposing defensive coordinator knows it.

Hawgdriver
09-13-2015, 09:09 PM
Manning wasn't getting a lot of time. The INT was a poor decision by Manning under duress. He makes fewer poor decisions when he stays upright. Outside of the protection issue, and a few accuracy issues, I don't see a reason to panic. Sure, today's performance won't cut it, but I'm giving the line a few weeks to gel before I put Manning in the crosshairs.

The defense is the real deal. Ugly game but the result is extremely satisfying.

honz
09-13-2015, 09:19 PM
Stop.

NightTerror218
09-13-2015, 09:19 PM
I am worried about the offense. If the offense can do that final drive every time then great. But having Manning throw it almost 50 times will lead to a noodle arm.

Offensive line will get better, they will get better as they play together but it will take time. Rookies may have had first game jitters and just wide eyed going against that DLine.

Manning and WR timing needs to be better which I hope is just going to be more reps together.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 09:20 PM
Not really. You bitch about o line and zone blocking more than anyone in history. Elway got lucky Mathis was still available, and he signed him so late he didn't get many reps with his new team.

So no. Your response is bullshit.

What I think about the OL and ZBS has nothing to do with you being wrong about them investing on the OL, a 2, a 4 and an All-Pro. Luck aside the Broncos addressed it. Now if you'd prefer the Broncos had told Manning to pound sand and spent that cap space on a couple more All-Pro OL then just say so.

TXBRONC
09-13-2015, 09:21 PM
I am worried about the offense. If the offense can do that final drive every time then great. But having Manning throw it almost 50 times will lead to a noodle arm.

Offensive line will get better, they will get better as they play together but it will take time. Rookies may have had first game jitters and just wide eyed going against that DLine.

Manning and WR timing needs to be better which I hope is just going to be more reps together.

That final drive is one reason I think the offense will get their issues worked out.

Cugel
09-13-2015, 09:24 PM
I just don't see Manning as the best QB on our roster anymore. It's time for Brock to start. We absolutely cannot go through 16 games with a QB that cannot throw beyond 15 yards. He picked off RIGHT where he left off at the end of last year. He's just not a playmaker anymore. I don't know if it's his neck, if it's his thigh, or if it's his arm, but he is definitely done. At the end of last year, I thought this might be temporary and he'd come back, but it never happened. Then today, we see the exactly thing we saw at the end of last year. He just doesn't have it anymore. The defense should not have to bail this team out every week; without that Talib pick 6, this team had no chance of driving down on a Raven's D for 7 points. Next week isn't going to be any easier, either.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner for most imbecilic post of the season! I'm sure there are lots of whiners who think like you.

Here's a thought that ought to penetrate just a bit of your confusion: Peyton generally OVERTHREW his receivers today. There's nothing wrong with his arm at all. He doesn't look like the end of last year. Last year when his thigh was injured he couldn't step into any throw.

Peyton will be fine. He missed a couple of deep balls, and the offense couldn't run the ball effectively for 3 quarters - which is what it is designed to do. That and the fact that he had absolutely no chance on 4 clean sacks where the OL simply "Oled" pass rushers.

And the OL wasn't terrible either. Every one of those sacks came on stunts and disguised blitzes. The OL is young and there were coverage breakdowns on delayed blitzes.

This new offense is a work in progress. And it will be a struggle at times. Talk about leaping to idiotic conclusions!

People are just going to have to chill out and not freak out if Peyton doesn't throw for 350 yards and 4 TDs every game.

He's proven he can still throw the ball 50 yards down field. He did it in this game and overthrew his WR and did it in the pre-season too, so statements like "he can't throw 15 yards" is just beyond idiotic. He made a couple of over-throws on deep balls, and had some timing issues with some WRs. He was under intense pressure on the pick-six and Norwood failed to make a play on the ball and allowed his defender to drive RIGHT THROUGH HIM to tip and intercept the ball.

That's 100% on the receiver and 0% on Peyton Manning. Peyton hit him on the hands, and he needs to at least put up a fight for the ball and not get totally owned like that.

Do you people even know that John Elway threw for 123 yards on 12 completions out of 23 passes, with zero TDs and 1 INT in the end zone in the Broncos 1997 SB game. They won anyway.

That's how this team is being designed by Elway and Kubiak.

But, you better get used to it, because no matter how loudly you whine, you're not going to see one single whiff of Brock Osweiler during this entire regular season. He ain't playing. Deal with it. :coffee:

underrated29
09-13-2015, 09:26 PM
Some defenses will be better in January, some will be worse. One thing that won't change is Manning's wheels.

Look, just because I point out that flaw doesn't make me a mouthbreather, and if you choose not to see it, I guess you should just ignore me. It is a huge liability and every opposing defensive coordinator knows it.


I can't ignore you baby cakes, but it's not fair to say I don't see something when I've acknowledged so, but see the oline as a more severe issue than Peyton. And aside from the chefs and lions are not likely to see another defense of that caliber until we see them again in the playoffs.

I believe Balt deserves credit for their outstanding d as much as the oline and Peyton deserve criticism for their performance. To me it's in that order. You think otherwise, that's cool.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 09:31 PM
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner for most imbecilic post of the season! I'm sure there are lots of whiners who think like you.

Here's a thought that ought to penetrate just a bit of your confusion: Peyton generally OVERTHREW his receivers today. There's nothing wrong with his arm at all. He doesn't look like the end of last year. Last year when his thigh was injured he couldn't step into any throw.

Peyton will be fine. He missed a couple of deep balls, and the offense couldn't run the ball effectively for 3 quarters - which is what it is designed to do. That and the fact that he had absolutely no chance on 4 clean sacks where the OL simply "Oled" pass rushers.

And the OL wasn't terrible either. Every one of those sacks came on stunts and disguised blitzes. The OL is young and there were coverage breakdowns on delayed blitzes.

This new offense is a work in progress. And it will be a struggle at times. Talk about leaping to idiotic conclusions!

People are just going to have to chill out and not freak out if Peyton doesn't throw for 350 yards and 4 TDs every game.

He's proven he can still throw the ball 50 yards down field. He did it in this game and overthrew his WR and did it in the pre-season too, so statements like "he can't throw 15 yards" is just beyond idiotic. He made a couple of over-throws on deep balls, and had some timing issues with some WRs. He was under intense pressure on the pick-six and Norwood failed to make a play on the ball and allowed his defender to drive RIGHT THROUGH HIM to tip and intercept the ball.

That's 100% on the receiver and 0% on Peyton Manning. Peyton hit him on the hands, and he needs to at least put up a fight for the ball and not get totally owned like that.

Do you people even know that John Elway threw for 123 yards on 12 completions out of 23 passes, with zero TDs and 1 INT in the end zone in the Broncos 1997 SB game. They won anyway.

That's how this team is being designed by Elway and Kubiak.

But, you better get used to it, because no matter how loudly you whine, you're not going to see one single whiff of Brock Osweiler during this entire regular season. He ain't playing. Deal with it. :coffee:

See what you've done UA and Slick?

VonDoom
09-13-2015, 09:34 PM
Meh. I hope Manning turns it around, but based on the game 4.4 yards per attempt is what I measure the QB's ability on. He continually took throws short of the down marker and hoped the receiver would convert. Manning beat nobody with his arm today.

Brandon Kirk @albukirky
Flacco-56% comp, 117 yards, 3.7 avg Manning-60% comp, 175 yards, 4.4 avg Any talk of Flacco being washed up?

VonDoom
09-13-2015, 09:37 PM
I am worried about the offense. If the offense can do that final drive every time then great. But having Manning throw it almost 50 times will lead to a noodle arm.

Offensive line will get better, they will get better as they play together but it will take time. Rookies may have had first game jitters and just wide eyed going against that DLine.

Manning and WR timing needs to be better which I hope is just going to be more reps together.

The plan for this offense is to run the ball more. The problem was, every time we ran it on first down, we got one yard. Manning had to throw it a ton because the run game was doing nothing. If this offense is working the way it's supposed to, the run/pass ratio will be a lot different than it was today.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 09:38 PM
Brandon Kirk @albukirky
Flacco-56% comp, 117 yards, 3.7 avg Manning-60% comp, 175 yards, 4.4 avg Any talk of Flacco being washed up?

This is such a bad comparison. First of all, Manning has way better weapons to work with than Flacco. Second, Flacco was actually doing a great job avoiding our pass rush all things considered. And he was making accurate throws when he had time.

Just because Flacco had a bad game doesn't mean people are stupid for saying Manning might be washed up and Flacco isn't.

DenBronx
09-13-2015, 09:40 PM
Ware looks like an animal in this defense.

Didn't notice Shane Ray. Did he even play?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-13-2015, 09:42 PM
This is such a bad comparison. First of all, Manning has way better weapons to work with than Flacco. Second, Flacco was actually doing a great job avoiding our pass rush all things considered. And he was making accurate throws when he had time.

Just because Flacco had a bad game doesn't mean people are stupid for saying Manning might be washed up and Flacco isn't.

Wrong

Cugel
09-13-2015, 09:42 PM
He showed he could hit 15 yards down field though, in the very game you said he hasn't showed he could hit 15 yards.

You may be right and the good thing about predicting the end so soon is sooner or later you'll be right. You get to be the first to say "I told you so".

Btw, we're having this discussion during the same week that Joe Flacco didn't have a play longer than 15 yards.

I don't often agree with you Jaded, but you hammered that nail right through the board.

Joe Flacco is a top 10 QB in this league with a cannon for an arm, and he was utterly ineffective all day long. The Ravens are one of the top 4 teams in the AFC, with elite talent on both sides of the ball, and some pretty smart people have picked them to win the SB this season.

And the Broncos proved they were the more physical team today. I can't remember the last time we could say that about a Broncos team, that they simply beat physically up a team and dominated their offense so totally that they could barely move the ball all day and were never a threat to score a TD until the last minute of the game.

I have to think back to the old Orange Crush days of the 1970s to see something like this. Perhaps the Broncos 1997 defense that beat the Steelers in the playoffs 14-10. Certainly no Broncos defense during the last 10 years has played a game like this.

And remember that they are doing it with almost exactly the same defenders that were the 18th ranked defense in points allowed last year. They had Von Miller and Aquib Talib, and Chris Harris and DeMarcus Ware and Brandon Marshall last year.

But, they also had a crap defensive coach in Jack Del Rio who never blitzed. Well you're welcome to him Raiders! How's that working out for you? 13-33 home opening loss, and they were down 0-30 at one point in that game so the 13 points were due to early garbage time.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 09:42 PM
Wrong

Killer in-depth reply here.

Slick
09-13-2015, 09:42 PM
What I think about the OL and ZBS has nothing to do with you being wrong about them investing on the OL, a 2, a 4 and an All-Pro. Luck aside the Broncos addressed it. Now if you'd prefer the Broncos had told Manning to pound sand and spent that cap space on a couple more All-Pro OL then just say so.

Expecting the second and fourth rounders to be good enough to protect the immobile one is a stretch. The Clady injury is a killer and that's not anyone's fault.

Since you brought it up, yes, I would have moved on from Manning. His post season history isn't a fluke. It's a pattern.

And Cugel, this o line is nothing like Elway's, full of veterans and we have no Terrel Davis. Horrible comparison. Plus even at 37-38 years old, Elway's mobility was miles ahead of Peyton at any point in his life.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 09:43 PM
Bringing up Flacco's bad game to absolve Manning of his is just a deflection, plain and simple.

Slick
09-13-2015, 09:43 PM
See what you've done UA and Slick?

Manning's arm isn't the problem.

Shazam!
09-13-2015, 09:47 PM
Flacco was ineffective because he gonna get killed.

VonDoom
09-13-2015, 09:47 PM
Bringing up Flacco's bad game to absolve Manning of his is just a deflection, plain and simple.

My point is that we're going to be having this Manning conversation all year, unless he can consistently show that he's back to being himself. He's under a huge microscope, here and in the general public. Plenty of QB's have bad days; Flacco's was awful, but there will be no microscope for him.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be worried about Manning. I'm just saying that the jury is out. Both defenses played at a high level today. Unfortunately, the quick turnaround against another very good defense will do us no favors this week.

CrazyHorse
09-13-2015, 09:48 PM
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner for most imbecilic post of the season! I'm sure there are lots of whiners who think like you.

Here's a thought that ought to penetrate just a bit of your confusion: Peyton generally OVERTHREW his receivers today. There's nothing wrong with his arm at all. He doesn't look like the end of last year. Last year when his thigh was injured he couldn't step into any throw.

Peyton will be fine. He missed a couple of deep balls, and the offense couldn't run the ball effectively for 3 quarters - which is what it is designed to do. That and the fact that he had absolutely no chance on 4 clean sacks where the OL simply "Oled" pass rushers.

And the OL wasn't terrible either. Every one of those sacks came on stunts and disguised blitzes. The OL is young and there were coverage breakdowns on delayed blitzes.

This new offense is a work in progress. And it will be a struggle at times. Talk about leaping to idiotic conclusions!

People are just going to have to chill out and not freak out if Peyton doesn't throw for 350 yards and 4 TDs every game.

He's proven he can still throw the ball 50 yards down field. He did it in this game and overthrew his WR and did it in the pre-season too, so statements like "he can't throw 15 yards" is just beyond idiotic. He made a couple of over-throws on deep balls, and had some timing issues with some WRs. He was under intense pressure on the pick-six and Norwood failed to make a play on the ball and allowed his defender to drive RIGHT THROUGH HIM to tip and intercept the ball.

That's 100% on the receiver and 0% on Peyton Manning. Peyton hit him on the hands, and he needs to at least put up a fight for the ball and not get totally owned like that.

Do you people even know that John Elway threw for 123 yards on 12 completions out of 23 passes, with zero TDs and 1 INT in the end zone in the Broncos 1997 SB game. They won anyway.

That's how this team is being designed by Elway and Kubiak.

But, you better get used to it, because no matter how loudly you whine, you're not going to see one single whiff of Brock Osweiler during this entire regular season. He ain't playing. Deal with it. :coffee:

I agree completely. Manning was off on several short throws too. His biggest weakness is still lack of mobility. He doesn't have to be Wilson or Newton but as long as he can move around in the pocket to avoid pressure it should be fine.

Also Brock will be the relief pitcher when we blow out the Raiders.:lol:

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 09:49 PM
My point is that we're going to be having this Manning conversation all year, unless he can consistently show that he's back to being himself. He's under a huge microscope, here and in the general public. Plenty of QB's have bad days; Flacco's was awful, but there will be no microscope for him.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be worried about Manning. I'm just saying that the jury is out. Both defenses played at a high level today. Unfortunately, the quick turnaround against another very good defense will do us no favors this week.

Flacco also hasn't had one tenth the success in his career that Manning has had, so he doesn't get held to the same standard. It's not as unusual for him to put up stinkers.

WJK
09-13-2015, 09:51 PM
Let's hang on a little before we declare that Peyton is done. Given time to establish chemistry and timing, we should be alright. Offensive lines require experience playing together before they really mesh. Considering Mathis has been on the team for less than a month along with Sambrailo and Paradis starting for the first time, we have to let them build chemistry. Peyton's arm looked fine, but he definitely doesn't look suited to the bootleg offense. Basically, we need to grow into our offense and slug it out in the meantime.

VonDoom
09-13-2015, 09:52 PM
Flacco also hasn't had one tenth the success in his career that Manning has had, so he doesn't get held to the same standard. It's not as unusual for him to put up stinkers.

Yeah, this was Regular Season Flacco, who often looks very pedestrian. If only Postseason Flacco would show up every week, this team would be the number one seed every year!

UnderArmour
09-13-2015, 09:55 PM
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner for most imbecilic post of the season! I'm sure there are lots of whiners who think like you.

Here's a thought that ought to penetrate just a bit of your confusion: Peyton generally OVERTHREW his receivers today. There's nothing wrong with his arm at all. He doesn't look like the end of last year. Last year when his thigh was injured he couldn't step into any throw.

Peyton will be fine. He missed a couple of deep balls, and the offense couldn't run the ball effectively for 3 quarters - which is what it is designed to do. That and the fact that he had absolutely no chance on 4 clean sacks where the OL simply "Oled" pass rushers.

And the OL wasn't terrible either. Every one of those sacks came on stunts and disguised blitzes. The OL is young and there were coverage breakdowns on delayed blitzes.

This new offense is a work in progress. And it will be a struggle at times. Talk about leaping to idiotic conclusions!

People are just going to have to chill out and not freak out if Peyton doesn't throw for 350 yards and 4 TDs every game.

He's proven he can still throw the ball 50 yards down field. He did it in this game and overthrew his WR and did it in the pre-season too, so statements like "he can't throw 15 yards" is just beyond idiotic. He made a couple of over-throws on deep balls, and had some timing issues with some WRs. He was under intense pressure on the pick-six and Norwood failed to make a play on the ball and allowed his defender to drive RIGHT THROUGH HIM to tip and intercept the ball.

That's 100% on the receiver and 0% on Peyton Manning. Peyton hit him on the hands, and he needs to at least put up a fight for the ball and not get totally owned like that.

Do you people even know that John Elway threw for 123 yards on 12 completions out of 23 passes, with zero TDs and 1 INT in the end zone in the Broncos 1997 SB game. They won anyway.

That's how this team is being designed by Elway and Kubiak.

But, you better get used to it, because no matter how loudly you whine, you're not going to see one single whiff of Brock Osweiler during this entire regular season. He ain't playing. Deal with it. :coffee:

First of all, I don't care WHO starts at quarterback. I just want the Broncos to win a Super Bowl. I'm not whining for the sake of whining, I'm not whining for the sake of being a contrarian, I'm whining because Manning is finished and Brock is the better option at this point. What I saw today was a continuation of the downward spiral Manning was stuck in at the end of last season. I'm not sure which was worse, today or the AFC Divisional game. Yes, Manning was against two premier edge rushers with a new offensive line, but even when he did have time he continually avoided long balls in critical situations, instead forcing his receivers to make plays on the down marker again and again.

I already commented on the "overthrowing" nonsense. Overthrowing is a missed pass, so that's a sign of inaccuracy. Yes, Manning can throw a ball 40 yards forward. Most high school quarterbacks can too. But can they HIT a target 40 yards down the field accurately? Bringing up that Manning overthrew receivers as a sign that he still has arm strength is an entirely inane point. He didn't connect. As you said, he didn't connect in preseason either. I don't see the accuracy beyond 15 yards anymore, and I don't think things will get any better. He didn't even appear to have the confidence to throw much beyond the 10 yard range.

I'm not freaking out because of the statistics. I'm freaking out because Manning was detrimental to the team today just like he was at the end of last year. 24/40 for 175 yards with 1 INT? Quarterbacks in the NFL have to make plays. There is a quarterback on the roster that can do that, and it's becoming more and more apparent that it isn't Manning. As a fan, I've just lost confidence in Manning. The Ravens dared Manning to beat them, and he didn't. Hopefully he comes out next week against the same type of defense and plays well, but I doubt it.

The only chance this team had was for the defense to score a touchdown, and luckily they did. But that luck isn't going to last and the offense is going to need a spark at some point. Manning just isn't that spark anymore. I'm not buying the whole "new offense" nonsense either. Manning is an offensive genius with an amazing football IQ; he can lead players to success in any scheme. I'm just not buying that he has "it" anymore. Brock will make starts this year if Manning doesn't show that he can still ball.

Cugel
09-13-2015, 09:56 PM
Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
This is such a bad comparison. First of all, Manning has way better weapons to work with than Flacco. Second, Flacco was actually doing a great job avoiding our pass rush all things considered. And he was making accurate throws when he had time.

Just because Flacco had a bad game doesn't mean people are stupid for saying Manning might be washed up and Flacco isn't.

Actually, yes it does mean that people are incredibly stupid. :coffee:

How great of a "weapon" is Jordan Norwood, the guy who let the ball hit him on the hands and allowed his defender to drive right through him to for a pick six? He's #3 on the depth chart and until the last week of the season it was questionable whether he was going to make the roster or not. The Broncos are seriously missing Julius Thomas right now. Owen Daniels and Virgil Green were supposed to be a huge part of this offense.

Well, back to the drawing board because Virgil Green was blanked and Owen Daniels had 2 catches for a grand total of 5 yards and no TDs. D.T. and Sanders had 15 total catches and the rest of the team had 9. That might be a problem going forward - the lack of a pass catching threat from the TE position.

When did Peyton "have time" all game?

He was sacked 4 freaking times! He was under constant pressure. The game plan was for them to run the ball and control the clock and they couldn't run for 3 quarters.

Peyton missed some throws, mostly on deep balls, which has quite frankly never been been his game. Flacco has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. And he looked like hot garbage out there. Not because he suddenly is "washed up" but because one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL put constant pressure on him, reminiscent of the way the Giants defense dominated Tom Brady and the Patriots in their 2 SB meetings. Tom Brady and the Pats offense managed to score 13 points in one SB loss. It didn't mean he was "finished."

If Peyton had the exact same game that Flacco did and it ended the way that Flacco ended it by being intercepted in the end-zone people would be screaming for Peyton's head.

In Baltimore they are taking this game in stride and expecting that the offense will look better when they are not playing a top 5 defense. We can say the same thing.

I fully expect the Broncos to struggle against KC's top 10 defense this Thursday on a short week. It's going to be a struggle. And lots more people will jump on the "Peyton is finished! We need to see Brock! bandwagon."

And it will continue to be utter nonsense. And Brock is not going to play this season.

After 1 game I'd go out on a limb and say that nothing can stop the Broncos from getting to the playoffs this year but key injuries. And when they get there, there's going to be some kicking and screaming before they're done.

You definitely won't see them just roll over and die like against Indy last year. That much we know right now. That team played SOFT as Charmin. This team is anything but soft.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 09:58 PM
Actually, yes it does mean that people are incredibly stupid. :coffee:

How great of a "weapon" is Jordan Norwood, the guy who let the ball hit him on the hands and allowed his defender to drive right through him to for a pick six? He's #3 on the depth chart and until the last week of the season it was questionable whether he was going to make the roster or not. The Broncos are seriously missing Julius Thomas right now. Owen Daniels and Virgil Green were supposed to be a huge part of this offense.

Well, back to the drawing board because Virgil Green was blanked and Owen Daniels had 2 catches for a grand total of 5 yards and no TDs. D.T. and Sanders had 15 total catches and the rest of the team had 9. That might be a problem going forward - the lack of a pass catching threat from the TE position.

When did Peyton "have time" all game?

He was sacked 4 freaking times! He was under constant pressure. The game plan was for them to run the ball and control the clock and they couldn't run for 3 quarters.

Peyton missed some throws, mostly on deep balls, which has quite frankly never been been his game. Flacco has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. And he looked like hot garbage out there.

If Peyton had the exact same game that Flacco did and it ended the way that Flacco ended it by being intercepted in the end-zone people would be screaming for Peyton's head.

In Baltimore they are taking this game in stride and expecting that the offense will look better when they are not playing a top 5 defense. We can say the same thing.

I fully expect the Broncos to struggle against KC's top 10 defense this Thursday on a short week. It's going to be a struggle. And lots more people will jump on the "Peyton is finished! We need to see Brock! bandwagon."

And it will continue to be utter nonsense. And Brock is not going to play this season.

After 1 game I'd go out on a limb and say that nothing can stop the Broncos from getting to the playoffs this year but key injuries. And when they get there, there's going to be some kicking and screaming before they're done.

You definitely won't see them just roll over and die like against Indy last year. That much we know right now.

Look at Peyton's career and look at Flacco's. Peyton gets held to a higher standard. He just does.

DenBronx
09-13-2015, 09:59 PM
KC will have a short week too so that's the positive.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-13-2015, 09:59 PM
Killer in-depth reply here.

I've made my point already. There's really nothing left to say.

I don't mean to be a jerk. You have some good takes, but the takes in this thread aren't them.

DenBronx
09-13-2015, 10:00 PM
Killer in-depth reply here.

I've made my point already. There's really nothing left to say.

I don't mean to be a jerk. You have some good takes, but the takes in this thread aren't them.

Are you saying Wave has hottakes???

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 10:01 PM
Manning's pick 6 was PI, I'm actually glad it wasn't called but by the letter it was 100% PI.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 10:03 PM
I've made my point already. There's really nothing left to say.

I don't mean to be a jerk. You have some good takes, but the takes in this thread aren't them.

I think the comparison to Flacco is a retarded take. If we are now holding Manning to the same standard as Flacco, that speaks volumes of how far he has fallen.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-13-2015, 10:05 PM
I think the comparison to Flacco is a retarded take. If we are now holding Manning to the same standard as Flacco, that speaks volumes of how far he has fallen.
Flacco is an elite QB. I'm not sure what you're talking about. He's easily one of the 7 or 8 best QB's in the NFL.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 10:06 PM
Flacco is an elite QB. I'm not sure what you're talking about. He's easily one of the 7 or 8 best QB's in the NFL.

Disagree entirely there. He has been elite at times, but he's also been very inconsistent.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 10:06 PM
Flacco is a stud.

BroncoWave
09-13-2015, 10:09 PM
Let's just say for argument's sake that Flacco is a top 10 QB. Even so, he has never been close to Manning-tier. So if we are now holding Manning and Flacco to the same standard, that implies that Manning has dropped in level.

Slick
09-13-2015, 10:11 PM
Flacco avoided several sacks. Our guy on the other hand.

Cugel
09-13-2015, 10:13 PM
I'm whining because Manning is finished and Brock is the better option at this point. What I saw today was a continuation of the downward spiral Manning was stuck in at the end of last season. I'm not sure which was worse, today or the AFC Championship game. Yes, Manning was against two premier edge rushers with a new offensive line, but even when he did have time he continually avoided long balls in critical situations, instead forcing his receivers to make plays on the down marker again and again.

7775

AFC Championship Game? You mean the one the Broncos won 26-16 over the Patriots? Or the AFC Divisional game against the Colts?

You might want to go back and look at the highlights of the AFC Championship Game of two years ago BTW, because Peyton looked almost exactly like he did today - overthrowing his WRs deep, having his receivers drop some passes on 3rd down, etc. Highlights (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000315210/GameDay-Patriots-vs-Broncos-highlights)

Frankly, I'm not concerned at all about Peyton. If the offense is playing like this in the playoffs, it will be a problem. But, in September against one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL, on a day when a young OL that has never started an NFL game together allows 4 sacks? Not a problem.

UnderArmour
09-13-2015, 10:13 PM
Let's just say for argument's sake that Flacco is a top 10 QB. Even so, he has never been close to Manning-tier. So if we are now holding Manning and Flacco to the same standard, that implies that Manning has dropped in level.

Flacco lost his starting LT early on in the game. He was under pressure the whole game, but settled in at the end and led his team down the field and put his receivers in a position to win the game. Steve Smith had a play on the ball. Last play of the game the receiver also had a shot on the ball too. The Ravens should not have even had a shot though, because our defense was playing lights out and their only points were off a pick 6. Our offense just stalled out again and again, and made almost no plays until the Hillman clock-chewing drive. If the 2 players were flipped, I'd be blaming receivers for not catching balls their QB put them in a position to catch. Flacco did a hell of a job, considering the circumstances.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 10:16 PM
Flacco avoided several sacks. Our guy on the other hand.

Our guy avoided one, fwiw.

underrated29
09-13-2015, 10:17 PM
Flacco also hasn't had one tenth the success in his career that Manning has had, so he doesn't get held to the same standard. It's not as unusual for him to put up stinkers.


They both have won a Super Bowl. I'm playing devils advocate tho as I agree with you

underrated29
09-13-2015, 10:18 PM
Flacco avoided several sacks. Our guy on the other hand.



Tell me you didn't laugh when on like the 4th play manning avoided the sack by basically running a bootleg. I was loling!

Simple Jaded
09-13-2015, 10:26 PM
Tell me you didn't laugh when on like the 4th play manning avoided the sack by basically running a bootleg. I was loling!

Yeah, rolled left and threw it in the dirt.

DenBronx
09-13-2015, 10:27 PM
The fainting goat strikes again!!!

Shazam!
09-13-2015, 10:29 PM
The horrendous OLine has been masked for years due solely to Manning. Ever since the Super Bowl, teams have adjusted. New philosophy, new players, this is going to take some time. Manning's reduced reps in practice is clear. Once the youngsters get more seasoning they'll be fine and Manning shakes off the rust.

Cugel
09-13-2015, 10:37 PM
Let's just say for argument's sake that Flacco is a top 10 QB. Even so, he has never been close to Manning-tier. So if we are now holding Manning and Flacco to the same standard, that implies that Manning has dropped in level.

Did you watch Joe Flacco in his SB run? Was there any chance whatever for the Ravens to even win a SB without a series of fantastic performances in the playoffs by Joe Flacco? The same Joe Flacco who has thrown 17 TD and 2 Ints in his last 6 post season games and gone 5-1? Even in his playoff loss last year to the Pats he threw 4 TDs and had them leading the game at several points.

That's what a top 10 QB looks like.

Frankly, would the Broncos be better off swapping Manning for Flacco at this point? Yes. Is Flacco coming to Denver? No. So, that's pretty irrelevant, yes? :coffee:

Does Brock Osweiler give the Broncos even a remote chance of winning the SB this year? No. And Kubiak knows it, which is exactly why you will see ZERO of Brock Osweiler this season.

Slick
09-13-2015, 10:41 PM
McManus was studly. He absolutely killed those two long ones.

I can't stand being negative. It's not me. I have a great life.

Denver won. Hopefully they'll get better as the season goes on.

My opinion on Manning stands And I don't want to sound like a broken record all season.

Go Broncos!

Cugel
09-13-2015, 10:45 PM
Flacco lost his starting LT early on in the game. He was under pressure the whole game, but settled in at the end and led his team down the field and put his receivers in a position to win the game. Steve Smith had a play on the ball. Last play of the game the receiver also had a shot on the ball too. The Ravens should not have even had a shot though, because our defense was playing lights out and their only points were off a pick 6. Our offense just stalled out again and again, and made almost no plays until the Hillman clock-chewing drive. If the 2 players were flipped, I'd be blaming receivers for not catching balls their QB put them in a position to catch. Flacco did a hell of a job, considering the circumstances.

Actually, the Broncos lost their starting LT early in the pre-season, when Ryan Clady was injured for the season.

What I object to is the massive hypocrisy of saying Joe Flacco did great, and Peyton sucked when both QBs struggled for exactly the same reaons - the defenses dominated the entire game.

Flacco had a last minute drive? Well, it helps when you have 4 downs every 10 yards because you're trailing late and have to go for it no matter what the down and distance. Flacco converted a 4th down on that drive. Any earlier in the game and that drive too would have resulted in a punt.

That Ravens offense did exactly nothing the entire game. And no that was not Joe Flacco's fault, any more than it was Peyton's fault that the offense struggled, he was under intense pressure the entire game, and they couldn't run the ball at all for 3 QTRs and his WRs made some bone-headed plays.

I seriously question how much more of Jordan Norwood we'll be seeing the rest of this season.

gregbroncs
09-13-2015, 10:47 PM
This ^^

People are not giving Baltimore's defense nearly enough credit.

Does Joe Flacco now suck sour pickles because he had a worst game than Manning?

Is the Ravens O line hot garbage now too?

I could go to the team forum if I wanted a bunch knee jerk reactions.
Because it was Baltimore's "D" and not a far lesser defense is why I'm just worried and not far more concerned. It's the trend of failing to end last year, not performing in the playoffs, followed by playing horrible in the preseason and again in this game that has me worried. If this was a one game sample of horrible play then no big deal. But it's not. And that is a concern.

Cugel
09-13-2015, 10:56 PM
Disagree entirely there. He has been elite at times, but he's also been very inconsistent.

If by inconsistent you mean he played badly in 2013 and they missed the playoffs, so what? Eli Manning also sucked that year and he's a top 10 QB too.

He's carried two Giants teams to the SB and made key plays in the Giants 2 SB wins. He played great last season for a pretty bad team.

Is either of those guys in the same category as Aaron Rogers, Andrew Luck, Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger? No. So?

But, the top 10 QBs in this league still include Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, Joe Flacco, Aaron Rogers, Russell Wilson, Eli Manning, and Ben Roethlisberger and probably Tony Romo although some might disagree.

If Manning really falls apart this year, then the SB dreams for the Broncos are over. Because you're just not seeing Brock at all. Not going to happen, so people can stop whining about it.

G_Money
09-13-2015, 10:59 PM
Manning was uncomfortable. We all know that the ONLY way to beat him is to make him uncomfortable, and unfortunately it was our own scheme and play-calls that were doing half the work for the Ravens.

Good:
+++++ that defense was amazing. Most fun I've had watching our defense work in quite a while. I don't expect it to continue like that because teams don't have footage of exactly how Phillips is going to use this personnel yet. After a few weeks of game film, teams will make adjustments. I want to watch us beat up Alex Smith next week though.

+ Special teams. McManus hit everything and looked cool as a cucumber. Colquitt had one shank punt but did well with the rest. Without good special teams we lose this game, and they came through for us.

Bad:
- that O-line. Jeez, fellas. Blown assignments, whiffed blocks, lack of holes for 3 quarters in the run game and lack of protection for all quarters. Not fun. Next week's pass rush isn't gonna be any easier to handle, so they'd better do some praying.

- Play-calling. Looked like we had no idea what to do in this game, and our half-time "adjustments" were a joke. The run game wasn't working in the first half and we didn't have a plan B other than 3 yard throws against sagging corners that disappeared after the other team DID make adjustments. Manning better find his downfield accuracy fast.

- Manning. Definitely a fish out of water there. Lots of flopping.

- Officiating. Didn't call the blatant through-the-back on the pick-six the Ravens got on us, called phantom false-start penalties and other randomness. I know the one line judge got hurt but that wasn't our fault. Don't take it out on us, yo.

The amazingness of the defense overcame all the rest. And I know that the lack of practice time in the new CBA has turned the first couple regular-season games into pre-season quality games thanks to players who don't yet know how to play together. It's still annoying to watch.

I'm thrilled we won the game despite what had better be the worst offensive performance of the year. Thank you Wade Phillips and the dozen pro-bowl performances we just got. I don't want them to have to do that every week for us to eke out wins though. Better to be us than the Colts or the Ravens right now, but adjustments are needed on the offensive end. More edge-plays please, with Sanders and Hillman who can actually get there and do something. Norwood too.

I don't know that we'll have it figured out in 4 days for Arrowhead, but maybe the week after. Congrats boys, you're 1-0. Better to learn lots of things like this in a hard-fought win than a bitter loss. Everybody buy the defense a malt shake for that.

I Eat Staples
09-14-2015, 12:05 AM
The good thing about this win is, we showed that we can win ugly. That's something we haven't been particularly good at the past few years. It's only one game in, but I already believe this is a better-coached team than we've seen lately. If we had this defense and this coaching staff in 2012 and 2013, we probably win back to back superbowls.

Hillman is obviously the more talented back between he and Anderson, and he'll probably get a chance to prove that as the year goes on. I like CJ, I like the way he plays the game and he's a great story, but when I saw him going in the 1st round in every fantasy draft I just kept thinking he's going to be this year's Montee Ball. The expectations on him are higher than they should be. That said, Suggs going down probably had as much to do with finding success in the running game as Hillman did. Not sure how great either of them can perform behind our abysmal O-Line, which is as bad as everyone feared they'd be.

As far as Flacco...he's got a lot of ability but he needs a long, long time to throw the ball. When he has that time, he'll look like one of the best QBs in the league. Their superbowl run happened because the O-Line was amazing for them. But no O-Line is going to consistently give their QB 5+ seconds to throw, so Flacco is average most of the time. Our defense did a great job of getting pressure on him, hence why there was absolutely no vertical threat in Baltimore's passing game.

Overall, the defense was outstanding but the offense, mostly the line and Manning, was pretty awful. If Manning gets better in this system, makes less mistakes and hits the throws he needs to on 3rd down, this team has the potential to go places. And McManus was absolutely amazing, if he doesn't make those huge kicks early we don't win the game.

BroncoTech
09-14-2015, 12:11 AM
Peyton Manning or not, 4.4 yards per attempt isn't good enough. He just didn't look like he could throw beyond 15 yards, and I don't buy this whole argument of missing via overthrow=being able to throw deep passes. The accuracy beyond 15 yards wasn't here, and it hasn't been there. I don't care if it's Peyton Manning, if he can't play, he can't play. And today, he couldn't play. The end of last year, notably the Indy game, he couldn't play. Thanks for the memories, but football is a team sport. A team shouldn't have to carry their quarterback every week. I just don't see him turning it around.

This time, I think he's done. He's not a rookie QB, "giving him time" isn't the answer. Manning knows how to play football in any scheme. Physically, it just doesn't seem like he can anymore. I'm ready for Kubiak to pull the plug.

Most fans aren't wanting to admit this but it's clearly the case, since last year and now into this season. The fainting goat is bad, and boot legging left he looked just terrible. It's a young man's game, and those kids on defense want to hurt Peyton. He's not spinning the ball either. I don't see him being able to get enough confidence to play like what we are used to seeing. I expect Kubes to move on this sooner, rather than later.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 12:21 AM
I'm not denying that Manning isn't the same guy anymore. I'm saying I'm ok with him being a top 10 qb instead the best qb, especially if it means we turn into a ball control team with a great defense.

I also expect Manning to have much better games than he had today because that was an elite defense he faced today.

Valar Morghulis
09-14-2015, 02:09 AM
I am a manning sycophant

But whilst manning and flacco both struggled because of stellar defence, manning missed more easy throws and looked punch drunk in the pocket

Valar Morghulis
09-14-2015, 02:17 AM
I forgot to say

Good - until the last drive a lack of defensive penalties. Last year, I felt we always shot ourselves in the foot on third down.

Bad - offensive penalties.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 02:24 AM
Watched a vine from the Broncos on Twitter. I caught this Ravens fans moment and had to capture it.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 02:28 AM
I meant to attach this one on the last post. Lol

mouthofsouth
09-14-2015, 02:37 AM
The year the Colts went to and won the Super Bowl, they played the Ravens in a playoff game. I recall there were no TDs at all in that game. The Colts scored a bunch of field goals. But Manning was given a lot of credit because he played ball control and there was one long drive that took a ton of time off the clock, just like today. Then he was praised. Today, in the same type of game, he is being criticized. He is not finished. He is learning a new offense just like everyone else on the offense, and he has a young offensive line that did not protect him well today. No qb can achieve if his offensive line does not protect him. Give the offense a little time to gel. Don't be so negative. Today was a win. Sometimes you have to depend on your defense to win games. Peyton has never been blessed with a super defense, but looks like he may be this year. Give them time.

Davii
09-14-2015, 04:44 AM
The Good: a Bronco win. That defense, and I think they'll get better yet as we go.

The bad: OL needs work, but they'll improve. Manning is rusty but, come on, it's Manning. Don't worry.

Bottom line: Last few years everyone complained that we needed to find a way to win when Manning was off, well, we just did EXACTLY that, and against a DAMN good team. Why are we now complaining about that? WHY? The offense will improve. Manning will improve and Gary will find ways to make Peyton more comfortable. Relax folks.

chazoe60
09-14-2015, 07:10 AM
The thing that worries me about Manning is that this isn't a one time thing. Manning has looked off for most of the last half of last year, the Colts playoff debacle, every time we saw him this preseason and yesterday. I have some hope that he gets his feet under him with some time in this new offense and with improved OL play but I also have some very legitimate concerns that this version of Manning is all that's left.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:14 AM
Some defenses will be better in January, some will be worse. One thing that won't change is Manning's wheels.

Look, just because I point out that flaw doesn't make me a mouthbreather, and if you choose not to see it, I guess you should just ignore me. It is a huge liability and every opposing defensive coordinator knows it.

Pffft!, what do you know buddy! You dont know jack over that drunk retard!

VonDoom
09-14-2015, 08:17 AM
I'm not denying that Manning isn't the same guy anymore. I'm saying I'm ok with him being a top 10 qb instead the best qb, especially if it means we turn into a ball control team with a great defense.

I also expect Manning to have much better games than he had today because that was an elite defense he faced today.

This is pretty much where I am at this point. Manning is not going to be in the same class as Rodgers, Brady or Luck at this point in his career. And that's okay, if this offense works as designed. This team is designed to be a running team with a killer defense. There are plenty of other teams that are built this way that have lesser QB's than Manning.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:18 AM
This is such a bad comparison. First of all, Manning has way better weapons to work with than Flacco. Second, Flacco was actually doing a great job avoiding our pass rush all things considered. And he was making accurate throws when he had time.

Just because Flacco had a bad game doesn't mean people are stupid for saying Manning might be washed up and Flacco isn't.

Not only that but apparently the doofus who wrote the tweet doesnt live in Bmore. There are plenty of Ravens fans who feel Flacco still sucks balls and that he drives them nuts. So yes, they come down on their QB as well.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:20 AM
Expecting the second and fourth rounders to be good enough to protect the immobile one is a stretch. The Clady injury is a killer and that's not anyone's fault.

Since you brought it up, yes, I would have moved on from Manning. His post season history isn't a fluke. It's a pattern.

And Cugel, this o line is nothing like Elway's, full of veterans and we have no Terrel Davis. Horrible comparison. Plus even at 37-38 years old, Elway's mobility was miles ahead of Peyton at any point in his life.

You just shattered Cugel's glass vagina.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:22 AM
My point is that we're going to be having this Manning conversation all year, unless he can consistently show that he's back to being himself. He's under a huge microscope, here and in the general public. Plenty of QB's have bad days; Flacco's was awful, but there will be no microscope for him.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be worried about Manning. I'm just saying that the jury is out. Both defenses played at a high level today. Unfortunately, the quick turnaround against another very good defense will do us no favors this week.

And unfortunately every game counts so if they are going to fix the issues they better get a move on because the rest of the divsion wont be waiting for us to hit our stride.

Northman
09-14-2015, 08:27 AM
McManus was studly. He absolutely killed those two long ones.

I can't stand being negative. It's not me. I have a great life.

Denver won. Hopefully they'll get better as the season goes on.

My opinion on Manning stands And I don't want to sound like a broken record all season.

Go Broncos!

Nothing wrong with being negative, its a part of life and part of fandom. If people cant accept that than thats on them and they can **** off. Dont like what we got to say? Put us on ignore or just ignore the post. Its not that difficult.

GEM
09-14-2015, 09:32 AM
The fainting goat was Orton, I penned the name.

Manning is an older qb who was once great, but not so much anymore. The line isn't doing him any favors.

The difference between Orton and Manning is Orton was the fainting goat in his prime.

underrated29
09-14-2015, 09:36 AM
Pffft!, what do you know buddy! You dont know jack over that drunk retard!



Like I said, name two defenses we will play in the playoffs tougher than the Ravens

underrated29
09-14-2015, 09:37 AM
I should also add that if the online and manning play like this all the way come playoff time we aren't going to do very well, but if it takes manning and the OL an entire season to get things going then we need to be concerned with coaching as well.

4 games should be about the max time allowed for this play.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 09:50 AM
Like I said, name two defenses we will play in the playoffs tougher than the Ravens
Buffalo is probably the only team in the AFC with a defense that good.

Buff
09-14-2015, 10:06 AM
Good: Wade Phillips is nails. Maybe a blessing in disguise that Cincy wouldn't let Joseph go - who better to implement this defense and teach everyone how to transition effectively than Wade? The whole unit is nasty - and the aggressive scheme suits the talent better than Del Rio's bend but don't break approach.

Bad: Manning's arm strength is a fatal flaw and no amount of defense can overcome it to win a super bowl. A guy needs to be able to improvise, make throws on the run, elude the pass rush, etc. in order to win multiple playoff games and the super bowl. He just has too many deficiencies. The offense is run with one arm behind our backs because the whole thing is set up to hide his deficiencies. Half the route tree isn't available, half of Kubiak's bootlegs aren't available; he's forced to take sacks because he can't scramble.

When you always hear athletes talk about how they'll stay until they aren't helping anymore - that's nonsense - athletes will stick around as long as you'll let them. Jerry Rice had to be shown the door. Elway already had the diminishing skills conversation with him in the offseason that led to a paycut - I don't see any way Manning can hold on for one more year. The league has figured out how to scheme against his limited skill set and it's never going to get better.

Davii
09-14-2015, 10:36 AM
When you always hear athletes talk about how they'll stay until they aren't helping anymore - that's nonsense - athletes will stick around as long as you'll let them. Jerry Rice had to be shown the door. Elway already had the diminishing skills conversation with him in the offseason that led to a paycut - I don't see any way Manning can hold on for one more year. The league has figured out how to scheme against his limited skill set and it's never going to get better.

IF, and I think that's a BIIIIIIIG if, you don't think Gary and Elway have the balls to bench Manning?

underrated29
09-14-2015, 10:55 AM
Buffalo is probably the only team in the AFC with a defense that good.


Exactly! and we are likely not to play them. They have a terrible offense and should they nake the playoffs they will likely be bounced in the divisional rounds. Miami is the only other team who has a defense near the same plane....Miamis d being just a hair lower than balts imo. After that it would only be seattle

BroncoWave
09-14-2015, 11:02 AM
Exactly! and we are likely not to play them. They have a terrible offense and should they nake the playoffs they will likely be bounced in the divisional rounds. Miami is the only other team who has a defense near the same plane....Miamis d being just a hair lower than balts imo. After that it would only be seattle

Teams with lesser defenses were shutting Manning down last year. It might not take an elite defense to do it, especially once it gets cold outside.

MasterShake
09-14-2015, 11:39 AM
Good - Defense looked ungodly and really took over the game. It was really nice to see a game where the offense struggled where the defense actually pulled it out. McManus was also a key after a shaky preseason.

Bad - The O-Line was really throwing off the timing of the rest of the offense, but Manning was also missing a few key throws when he had time. It was sloppy all around with penalties killing drives. Manning never looked comfortable until the very last drive.

I'm worried about the offense right now, but will not panic unless it still looks this bad in week 4 or 5. I don't think arm strength was an issue, even the over-throws I saw were not floating in the air long but it looked like they were thrown before he wanted to. The first and last drives were decent though we need to get our running game more involved. When Hillman took over I think we saw more of what the offense was supposed to look like as it took some steam off the pass rush.

tripp
09-14-2015, 12:07 PM
Everyone wants to point the finger at Peyton because he's the QB with all the accolades, but to me, the glaring eye sore is the O-line and new game plan. I'm not knocking the game plan, but to think implementing a brand new game plan, and to expect it to work like we've been running these plays for 4 years, is unrealistic.

Northman
09-14-2015, 12:15 PM
IF, and I think that's a BIIIIIIIG if, you don't think Gary and Elway have the balls to bench Manning?

A part of me would say no but then again Elway had no problem firing Fox or replacing Tebow so i would hope that if they felt Manning cant do it that they would pull the trigger and make the change. But if it happens during the season its probably going to be a lot like the Jake/Jay swap when people went apeshit after the change.

MasterShake
09-14-2015, 12:34 PM
Everyone wants to point the finger at Peyton because he's the QB with all the accolades, but to me, the glaring eye sore is the O-line and new game plan. I'm not knocking the game plan, but to think implementing a brand new game plan, and to expect it to work like we've been running these plays for 4 years, is unrealistic.

I think it started with the O-Line myself. The run game never got going and then when we were in obvious passing situations Manning had to rush nearly everything.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 12:37 PM
I think it started with the O-Line myself. The run game never got going and then when we were in obvious passing situations Manning had to rush nearly everything.

It started with the O-Line because Baltimore was stacking the box, and using delayed blitzes with just one safety over the top. If Manning connects on a few long passes, that'll ease them off the line.

As Buff said, I'm just not confident Manning will complete those long balls. I hope I'm wrong.

MasterShake
09-14-2015, 12:41 PM
It started with the O-Line because Baltimore was stacking the box, and using delayed blitzes with just one safety over the top. If Manning connects on a few long passes, that'll ease them off the line.

As Buff said, I'm just not confident Manning will complete those long balls. I hope I'm wrong.

Chicken or the egg I guess then. What I saw at the game was Manning having to throw those long balls early because he had people up in his face. The shorter throws where he could set he looked fine. You and Buff are right as far as the accuracy goes thouh, even with pressure if he just hits ONE of those it calls the dogs off a bit.

If any QB can get this corrected I know its him. At least I hope!

VonDoom
09-14-2015, 01:07 PM
I think it started with the O-Line myself. The run game never got going and then when we were in obvious passing situations Manning had to rush nearly everything.

One of the overthrows was certainly due to pressure in his face causing him to release it earlier than he wanted to. The one that Sanders nearly caught on his fingertips was straight up on Manning, I believe. Like I said, I'm reserving judgment for now, but I think the line will need to step up in order to see what this team can do.

On the Manning front, I'm more concerned about him not seeing open receivers (I remember they showed Caldwell calling for the ball at one point and I didn't see anyone around him). Lack of arm strength is one thing, but Manning's mind has always been his best asset. If he's missing reads, then I'm going to be concerned.

Buff
09-14-2015, 01:31 PM
Building on the MasterShake chicken or egg argument: Part of the reason our o-line play sucked is that we can't challenge them on the edge with bootlegs or intermediate boundary throws, and we can't hit them over the top with a deep ball, so they are able to stack the box and tee off.

Yes - the answer is that we need to connect on some deep balls, but that is a clear cut Manning weakness, and defenses will continue to let him live & die on his ability to hit deep passes. That has and will continue to be the blueprint since Seattle executed it so effectively in the super bowl, and the colts in the divisional round last year.

I Eat Staples
09-14-2015, 01:32 PM
I don't think Baltimore's defense is as good as some of you are saying...Buffalo, Miami, and NYJ all look to be better defenses, though we're not that likely to see them in the playoffs since they all play in the same division. Cincy's defense is pretty good as well. In fact, I don't think Baltimore will even make the playoffs this year. They have no weapons on offense in a great division, and the defense is really just average.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 01:36 PM
Building on the MasterShake chicken or egg argument: Part of the reason our o-line play sucked is that we can't challenge them on the edge with bootlegs or intermediate boundary throws, and we can't hit them over the top with a deep ball, so they are able to stack the box and tee off.

Yes - the answer is that we need to connect on some deep balls, but that is a clear cut Manning weakness, and defenses will continue to let him live & die on his ability to hit deep passes. That has and will continue to be the blueprint since Seattle executed it so effectively in the super bowl, and the colts in the divisional round last year.

Teams certainly must have the personnel to do this, but most do (to a degree).

I guess my biggest question is, when do we realize Manning is slipping, and not what he once was? At age 39? 40? 41? It's pretty clear is is not the same QB as when he first came here, or even the next year. His third year started out fantastic, and dropped substantially during the last 1/3 of the season.

I fully realize he is one of the greatest to ever play the game, and it's easy to say he is our best option because we don't know what Brock is yet. But really. How many QB's with limited mobility can play to that age? Elway was done at 38, and he was one of the most mobile QB's ever.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 01:38 PM
PS - I hope he comes out on Thursday and proves everyone wrong by tossing for 300+ yards and 3 TD's.

We'll see.

DenBronx
09-14-2015, 01:40 PM
I don't see Elway or Kubiak benching Manning. No way in hell they do that this year. Too much invested in him and still way too early to make such a decision. The GLARING problem is the OL anyway. It's not only effected our pass game but also out run game. So hey, lets fix that before we talk about benching our HOF QB.

Yeah, I'd love to see what Brock could do in this offense but that's only happening if Manning gets injured.

Buff
09-14-2015, 01:43 PM
Teams certainly must have the personnel to do this, but most do (to a degree).

I guess my biggest question is, when do we realize Manning is slipping, and not what he once was? At age 39? 40? 41? It's pretty clear is is not the same QB as when he first came here, or even the next year. His third year started out fantastic, and dropped substantially during the last 1/3 of the season.

I fully realize he is one of the greatest to ever play the game, and it's easy to say he is our best option because we don't know what Brock is yet. But really. How many QB's with limited mobility can play to that age? Elway was done at 38, and he was one of the most mobile QB's ever.

It's a great question. For me it was standing in the rain outside of Sports Authority after the Colts handed us our asses last year. It was obvious our QB was a liability in that game. Elway further reinforced this point by making Manning take a pay cut.

Then we spun everything as positively as we could all offseason, and he comes out in week 1 and is still a liability. If Daryl Smith could catch they would have had two pick 6s.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 01:44 PM
I don't see Elway or Kubiak benching Manning. No way in hell they do that this year. Too much invested in him and still way too early to make such a decision. The GLARING problem is the OL anyway. It's not only effected our pass game but also out run game. So hey, lets fix that before we talk about benching our HOF QB.

Yeah, I'd love to see what Brock could do in this offense but that's only happening if Manning gets injured.

I call BS. Sorry, but not buying it. It's really OK to admit Manning isn't the Manning of old anymore.

Ravens stacked the box and outnumbered our O-Line from the get-go. If the QB can't hit the open receiver, or play to the one-on-one match-ups on the outside, the offense is doomed even with the best O-Line ever.

Is there anyone here that thinks DT or Sanders can't beat 99% of the DB's in the league? Teams might have one good one. Not two.

Cugel
09-14-2015, 02:06 PM
Building on the MasterShake chicken or egg argument: Part of the reason our o-line play sucked is that we can't challenge them on the edge with bootlegs or intermediate boundary throws, and we can't hit them over the top with a deep ball, so they are able to stack the box and tee off.

Yes - the answer is that we need to connect on some deep balls, but that is a clear cut Manning weakness, and defenses will continue to let him live & die on his ability to hit deep passes. That has and will continue to be the blueprint since Seattle executed it so effectively in the super bowl, and the colts in the divisional round last year.

Sorry, but the reason the OL sucked is that they haven't played together as a unit. Not EVER. Paradis and Sambrailo have never started an NFL game before. Ryan Harris is a re-tread, but he's also new to this offense. OL is a UNIT where continuity matters. A lot. The best OL play together for years like the Broncos did with Tom Nalen, Stink, Gary Zimmerman and Matt Lepsis.

Sambrailo & Co. are very young and inexperienced. Evan Mathis didn't practice during the entire preseason and it showed. He was rusty and played bad, and you're talking about an All-Pro LG. Peyton was under intense pressure all game long, and was hit a bunch and sacked 4 times.

Guys were just blowing through the OL on delayed blitzes. That's not on Peyton. Teams are going to throw disguised and delayed blitzes against this team because the OL is so inexperienced. They're just going to have to learn how to deal with it.

And they will learn. You saw dramatic improvement from Sambrailo from the start of training camp till now. Same thing for Paradis and Max Garcia. There are reasons why Chris Clark and Gradkowski aren't on the team anymore. They were out-competed for jobs. They will go over the film and get better at communicating.

If the Broncos can managed to keep winning games in the first half of the season while the offense is making adjustments to the new system, this team has the potential to be a Super Bowl championship team.

They've got the defense down. Giving up 6 points to a team like Baltimore with Joe Flacco? That's beyond impressive. It's awesome.

They just have to work on running the ball more effectively, and the OL has to come together and protect Peyton better. And Peyton has to settle in to the new system and make some of those throws he missed this past week. Particularly on the bootleg he looked out of place. Jake Plummer he ain't. They might have to modify that play if Peyton struggles to throw while rolling out.

If the offense is still looking like this in week 10 we have a problem. But as of now? They can win ugly for a while until they get it straightened out.

MOtorboat
09-14-2015, 02:07 PM
Ryan Harris has played his entire career in this offense.

Cugel
09-14-2015, 02:16 PM
I don't see Elway or Kubiak benching Manning. No way in hell they do that this year. Too much invested in him and still way too early to make such a decision. The GLARING problem is the OL anyway. It's not only effected our pass game but also out run game. So hey, lets fix that before we talk about benching our HOF QB.

Yeah, I'd love to see what Brock could do in this offense but that's only happening if Manning gets injured.

Brock will start ZERO games this season, even if Peyton continues to struggle. Even if they would have lost the first 4 games, I doubt Peyton is benched.

That will never happen now. If they get to mid-season at 5-3 they'll be fine.

This season is not about how many wins you can pile up in the regular season. They tried that the last 3 years and went 38-10 and had the #1, #1 and #2 seed in the playoffs. How did that work out?

Its' about playing your best ball in January. It's about slowing down the offense, in order to keep the defense from tiring out in December. You saw that in microcosm in this game. Peyton led the team on a 10 minute drive in the 4th quarter. During that entire time the defense is resting on the sidelines.

Then they came back out and were playing with the same intensity in the last drive that they showed in the opening quarter. And they won the game.

That's what you need. 3 of the last 5 teams to win the SB went 10-6 in the regular season - Giants, Packers and Ravens.

Northman
09-14-2015, 02:18 PM
I think the Oline had its fair share of problems because of their inexperience and youth. But, i know at times they did very well too and Manning still could not hit a receiver to save his life. As pointed out, Manning missed a read on Caldwell who was wide open going to the endzone at one point. I know some people think its a bit harsh with some of the criticism with Manning but the reality is that is why we pay him those huge bucks. He has the experience, he is supposed to be one of the best in the game and because of his (generally) ability to read defenses and adjust he is expected to make plays when the surrounding players cant. Im not going to take anything away from Baltimore because traditionally they have been a very good defensive team but i dont believe for a minute that this team is as good as the one we destroyed 2 years ago. The whole idea of having a guy like Manning is so that he can carry some of the load and make plays because of who he is, otherwise what is the point? If he looks better this week vs KC it will put me a little more at ease but im really not counting on it. I just think the guy has hit a wall and now is far more limited than he once was. Either way, we will know after the next couple of games because in the end its all about how you perform against better competition and playoff calibur teams.

Cugel
09-14-2015, 02:34 PM
Ryan Harris has played his entire career in this offense.

In this offensive STYLE, but not with these linemates. That's the point. It's about communication. And that comes from playing together so that each OL knows where the others will be on a play and who has what assignment without confusion and without having to figure it out during a play or on the sideline.

What you saw was a tragi-comic version of the outfielders letting the pop fly drop and then saying "I thought you had it!" "No, I thought you had it. You were calling for it." "No, I was saying 'it's yours!'"

They will get that straightened out but it will take some time playing together.

Cugel
09-14-2015, 02:39 PM
I think the Oline had its fair share of problems because of their inexperience and youth. But, i know at times they did very well too and Manning still could not hit a receiver to save his life. As pointed out, Manning missed a read on Caldwell who was wide open going to the endzone at one point. I know some people think its a bit harsh with some of the criticism with Manning but the reality is that is why we pay him those huge bucks. He has the experience, he is supposed to be one of the best in the game and because of his (generally) ability to read defenses and adjust he is expected to make plays when the surrounding players cant. Im not going to take anything away from Baltimore because traditionally they have been a very good defensive team but i dont believe for a minute that this team is as good as the one we destroyed 2 years ago. The whole idea of having a guy like Manning is so that he can carry some of the load and make plays because of who he is, otherwise what is the point? If he looks better this week vs KC it will put me a little more at ease but im really not counting on it. I just think the guy has hit a wall and now is far more limited than he once was. Either way, we will know after the next couple of games because in the end its all about how you perform against better competition and playoff calibur teams.

Much of this is deliberate. They are NOT giving Manning a chance to just ad-lib at the los like in past years. They are giving him a play to run, and 1 check-down if he wants to check out of the play for some reason. 1 check-down, not the entire play-book as in years past.

THAT is the adjustment. He frankly doesn't look very comfortable yet in this new offense. He's playing more tentatively, and he missed some throws.

Mostly his misses are because he feels pressured and hurried because the OL can't block for him and his WRs are being covered on the underneath routes. They are going to have to work on their longer passes and hit a few of those so defenses will back off some. And they will have to make the play-action pass work better, because right now it's just not working.

I think the OL will get better as the season progresses and Peyton will feel more comfortable and his passing will improve. But, it probably won't happen by this Thursday. That could be ugly in KC.

Shazam!
09-14-2015, 02:45 PM
Since when is KC some unstoppable juggernaut? I know they have solid D but I can see Alex Smith getting slaughtered by Von, Ware and Co.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 02:45 PM
Since when is KC some unstoppable juggernaut? I know they have solid D but I can see Alex Smith getting slaughtered by Von, Ware and Co.

You could argue KC's OL is worse than ours.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 02:47 PM
And, God. I hope Brock starts at least one game this season just to shut up the idiot posting there's zero chance he'll start. I think there's a hitters chance he'll start at least one game - if not more.

GEM
09-14-2015, 03:12 PM
Just heard on the radio that the worst on the oline was Mathis. This surprises me in some ways, but the fact that he hasn't played a lick of ball with these other guys on the line makes it somewhat understandable. Worst to best according to the radio guys by statistic....Mathis -.36, Sambrailo -.25, Harris -.1, Paradis +1, Vasquez and Vasquez was only a +.165.

NightTrainLayne
09-14-2015, 03:20 PM
And, God. I hope Brock starts at least one game this season just to shut up the idiot posting there's zero chance he'll start. I think there's a hitters chance he'll start at least one game - if not more.

The only way Brock starts is if Manning gets injured.

I'm not hoping for that at all.

BroncoJoe
09-14-2015, 03:22 PM
The only way Brock starts is if Manning gets injured.

I'm not hoping for that at all.

If he continues to struggle, they'll claim injury. I honestly don't see Manning lasting all 16 games. I think he will get injured, and I don't write that hoping that's the case.

VonDoom
09-14-2015, 03:29 PM
If he continues to struggle, they'll claim injury. I honestly don't see Manning lasting all 16 games. I think he will get injured, and I don't write that hoping that's the case.

I was actually thinking about this earlier. If he continues to struggle, the way to save face will be to put him on the shelf with a phantom injury. I see no way that they bench Manning without all hell breaking loose.

Of course, I stand by the thought that it is far too early to worry about these things after one game.

Northman
09-14-2015, 03:33 PM
I was actually thinking about this earlier. If he continues to struggle, the way to save face will be to put him on the shelf with a phantom injury. I see no way that they bench Manning without all hell breaking loose.

Of course, I stand by the thought that it is far too early to worry about these things after one game.

Nah, if Manning continues to look like dog shit they will find a way for him to bow out gracefully.

Slick
09-14-2015, 03:33 PM
My criticisms of Manning are not because of one game and none of my posts call for benching him. Denver is stuck with him for better or worse.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2015, 03:47 PM
Good. The defense and McManus.

Bad. Manning. This offense. The blocking. The lack of a Y or Slot WR. The fact that our second year WR still doesn't see the field and is playing/not playing behind a lowwww draft WR. False starts. Our running game.

I didn't see anything on offense I was proud of, and if we come out of KC with a win, it will be because of our defense and luck. I'm just glad the Chiefs have Alex Smith at QB.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 03:52 PM
I was bummed to see Latimer didn't sniff the field. He must be having issues if he can't get pt over Norwood.

MOtorboat
09-14-2015, 03:55 PM
I was bummed to see Latimer didn't sniff the field. He must be having issues if he can't get pt over Norwood.

The tight ends are shit too. How else do you explain Norwood in the lineup and third down passes designed for Anderson?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 03:59 PM
The tight ends are shit too. How else do you explain Norwood in the lineup and third down passes designed for Anderson?

Well, I don't know how much of the passing issues were with Baltimore having a talented defense that knew what was coming.

Ideally CJ should be able to beat LB's on pass plays, but it looked like Baltimore's main objective in that game was to shut CJ down. They didn't stack the box the same way when Hillman was in the game.

MOtorboat
09-14-2015, 04:04 PM
Well, I don't know how much of the passing issues were with Baltimore having a talented defense that knew what was coming.

Ideally CJ should be able to beat LB's on pass plays, but it looked like Baltimore's main objective in that game was to shut CJ down. They didn't stack the box the same way when Hillman was in the game.

If the issue is you can't block long enough to throw intermediate passes to your wide receivers except on some select few crosses, what can you do? Short passes to tight ends and some slants to loosen that defense up a little. Other than those crosses to Sanders, Denver did none of that. Then, inexplicably, on third down they ISO'd a running back on the outside for a third and four? I was just baffled by that and I think the inability to get the tight ends involved, whether it be talent or scheme, is being overlooked. My supposition is that it's talent.

tripp
09-14-2015, 06:43 PM
Just heard on the radio that the worst on the oline was Mathis. This surprises me in some ways, but the fact that he hasn't played a lick of ball with these other guys on the line makes it somewhat understandable. Worst to best according to the radio guys by statistic....Mathis -.36, Sambrailo -.25, Harris -.1, Paradis +1, Vasquez and Vasquez was only a +.165.

Heard on the NFL network, Mathis literally came off the street and played for us. No experience in a ZBS, and no pre-season to even have a shot at succeeding yesterday.

tripp
09-14-2015, 06:44 PM
Nah, if Manning continues to look like dog shit they will find a way for him to bow out gracefully.

I really do hope so. I'd hate for it to turn ugly.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 06:55 PM
Killer in-depth reply here.

Sometimes one word says it all Wave.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 06:58 PM
If the issue is you can't block long enough to throw intermediate passes to your wide receivers except on some select few crosses, what can you do? Short passes to tight ends and some slants to loosen that defense up a little. Other than those crosses to Sanders, Denver did none of that. Then, inexplicably, on third down they ISO'd a running back on the outside for a third and four? I was just baffled by that and I think the inability to get the tight ends involved, whether it be talent or scheme, is being overlooked. My supposition is that it's talent.

I don't know, you might be right. I'm giving it 3 weeks before I form much of an opinion.

Honestly, the only thing that really concerned me about Manning was when he beached that designed bootleg.

MOtorboat
09-14-2015, 06:58 PM
I don't know, you might be right. I'm giving it 3 weeks before I form much of an opinion.

Honestly, the only thing that really concerned me about Manning was when he beached that designed bootleg.

That's fair. Small sample size.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 06:58 PM
The fainting goat was Orton, I penned the name.

Manning is an older qb who was once great, but not so much anymore. The line isn't doing him any favors.

The difference between Orton and Manning is Orton was the fainting goat in his prime.

Orton never had a prime.

tripp
09-14-2015, 08:26 PM
I don't know, you might be right. I'm giving it 3 weeks before I form much of an opinion.

Honestly, the only thing that really concerned me about Manning was when he beached that designed bootleg.

I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing that play this year again, not with Peyton under center. It was pretty laughable, and also sad at the same time. Can't exactly be that upset as that's the first time I've ever seen him roll out to a boot leg before.

BroncoWave
09-14-2015, 08:29 PM
I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing that play this year again, not with Peyton under center. It was pretty laughable, and also sad at the same time. Can't exactly be that upset as that's the first time I've ever seen him roll out to a boot leg before.

What baffles me is we have to have run that play in practice, right? And he must have executed it in practice for Kubes to call it in a game. It just blows my mind how inept he was on that play.

tripp
09-14-2015, 08:38 PM
What baffles me is we have to have run that play in practice, right? And he must have executed it in practice for Kubes to call it in a game. It just blows my mind how inept he was on that play.

Good point, no explanation on that. Was it that play or the pick 6 Phil Sims said that he didn't throw it properly?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-14-2015, 08:41 PM
Good point, no explanation on that. Was it that play or the pick 6 Phil Sims said that he didn't throw it properly?

It might have not come out of his hand right because the ball did a nose dive.

Maybe he needs to let some of the air out of the ball.

Simple Jaded
09-14-2015, 10:13 PM
One of the overthrows was certainly due to pressure in his face causing him to release it earlier than he wanted to. The one that Sanders nearly caught on his fingertips was straight up on Manning, I believe. Like I said, I'm reserving judgment for now, but I think the line will need to step up in order to see what this team can do.

On the Manning front, I'm more concerned about him not seeing open receivers (I remember they showed Caldwell calling for the ball at one point and I didn't see anyone around him). Lack of arm strength is one thing, but Manning's mind has always been his best asset. If he's missing reads, then I'm going to be concerned.

Manning missed 4 TD's last night, two to Sanders, the roll out to DT and the one to Caldwell.

Simple Jaded
09-14-2015, 10:18 PM
I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing that play this year again, not with Peyton under center. It was pretty laughable, and also sad at the same time. Can't exactly be that upset as that's the first time I've ever seen him roll out to a boot leg before.

If they scrap this play I'd disagree with this entirely, it's a staple, it has to be called, he's a ******* HoFer and he needs to suck it up and complete the pass. Steve Beierlien was just as immobile and got it done.

TXBRONC
09-14-2015, 10:24 PM
Good point, no explanation on that. Was it that play or the pick 6 Phil Sims said that he didn't throw it properly?

I think he said the pick 6.

Northman
09-15-2015, 06:50 AM
Actually, Manning rolled out on a bootleg in Dallas a couple of years ago. But he didnt have to throw it and just ran it in. Moving and throwing are definitely not his thing though.

Buff
09-15-2015, 08:19 AM
He showed he could hit 15 yards down field though, in the very game you said he hasn't showed he could hit 15 yards.

You may be right and the good thing about predicting the end so soon is sooner or later you'll be right. You get to be the first to say "I told you so".

Btw, we're having this discussion during the same week that Joe Flacco didn't have a play longer than 15 yards.

This is super disingenuous and unnecessarily condescending. Joe Flacco can throw the ball 70 yards on a rope. Nobody is worried about his ability to throw a 15 yard in route. And nobody is doing cartwheels about our QB's inability to throw the football, so it's beyond retarded to criticize him for having an opinion.

Simple Jaded
09-15-2015, 09:54 PM
This is super disingenuous and unnecessarily condescending. Joe Flacco can throw the ball 70 yards on a rope. Nobody is worried about his ability to throw a 15 yard in route. And nobody is doing cartwheels about our QB's inability to throw the football, so it's beyond retarded to criticize him for having an opinion.

Out route, 15 yard out route, and Manning nailed one.