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View Full Version : How does PFM beat teams that know how to beat him?



Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 05:58 AM
so, i think the blueprint for how to beat peyton manning is now well established - although it still takes top calibre players and excellent coaching to do it.

Getting pressure on hm, and taking out the short and intermediate routes seems to be the way to go, forcing him to throw downfield, early and under pressure.

Given the "perceived" weaknesses in our O-Line at the minute, it looks like when peyton drops back, he could have a lot of pressure, forcing him to take multiple "self sacks".

So, my question is, how do we compensate for this.

Obviously the answer is run the ball, make the defense respect and expect the run (first)......but it can not be as simple as that, otherwise, surely we would have made those adjustments last season.

Thoughts?

SR
07-11-2015, 07:06 AM
He doesn't beat them

BroncoWave
07-11-2015, 07:10 AM
The whole "blueprint" thing is silly. It's not like the blueprint to beat a Manning team was just discovered in the last year or two. Teams have always known how to beat Manning. It's just that very few have had the talent/coaching to execute that plan over the years. Now that he is starting to age, however, it's not as difficult to execute that plan as perhaps it once was.

Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 07:37 AM
The whole "blueprint" thing is silly. It's not like the blueprint to beat a Manning team was just discovered in the last year or two. Teams have always known how to beat Manning. It's just that very few have had the talent/coaching to execute that plan over the years. Now that he is starting to age, however, it's not as difficult to execute that plan as perhaps it once was.

so how do we get round it?

SR
07-11-2015, 08:49 AM
so how do we get round it?

We hope and pray that teams like Seattle's championship defense doesn't show up and games like the Colts in last seasons playoffs don't happen.

Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 09:21 AM
We hope and pray that teams like Seattle's championship defense doesn't show up and games like the Colts in last seasons playoffs don't happen.

Sometimes because I am a stupid Scottish person, who never grew up playing football, I think i might be missing something - so it makes me laugh when the answer from you guys is as simple as that!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
07-11-2015, 10:14 AM
We need a great defense and a good running game to beat teams like Seattle.

NightTrainLayne
07-11-2015, 10:27 AM
The simple answer to your question is that PFM doesn't beat teams that know how to beat him and have the personnel to execute that plan.

That is why, when we go up against a team like that (Seattle, etc.), we have to be able to beat them with our team instead of just relying on PFM all by himself. We have to run the ball and play great defense etc.

PFM is great enough to beat a lot of teams all by himself, but when you get into the playoffs, you need to be able to support your QB with other aspects of the team. Your defense can't allow Baltimore to score 38 points, or allow Seattle to completely ignore your running game while jumping all of your pass routes.

ShaneFalco
07-11-2015, 10:27 AM
hope the new o line becomes superstars

Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 10:29 AM
The simple answer to your question is that PFM doesn't beat teams that know how to beat him and have the personnel to execute that plan.

That is why, when we go up against a team like that (Seattle, etc.), we have to be able to beat them with our team instead of just relying on PFM all by himself. We have to run the ball and play great defense etc.

PFM is great enough to beat a lot of teams all by himself, but when you get into the playoffs, you need to be able to support your QB with other aspects of the team. Your defense can't allow Baltimore to score 38 points, or allow Seattle to completely ignore your running game while jumping all of your pass routes.

Yeah sorry, I agree.

To word it better.

How do we game plan against teams that have PFMs number

ShaneFalco
07-11-2015, 10:31 AM
if the new o line is shoddy in the running game, then there will be trouble. If we overpower people and can run at will, then i would say teams should have to worry about the run instead of #18. And then the plan around peyton shouldnt matter much. Play action most deadly weapon to defensive lbs and safeties, Only real way to deter teams planning around Manning. This is why i wanted Gurley on Denver, but yea, STL will do :)

NightTrainLayne
07-11-2015, 10:33 AM
Yeah sorry, I agree.

To word it better.

How do we game plan against teams that have PFMs number

The Broncos have to be able to execute an effective running game, and play good defense.

Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 10:46 AM
The Broncos have to be able to execute an effective running game, and play good defense.

Simples!

Super bowl 50 here we come!

NightTrainLayne
07-11-2015, 10:52 AM
Simples!

Super bowl 50 here we come!

I'm not too worried about the defense. The question is whether or not Kubiak, et al, can convince Manning to step back into the shadows a little bit and let us run the ball.

If they can't, it will still be a fun season, with a lot of wins. . . and a disappointing end. What else is new?

BroncoJoe
07-11-2015, 10:54 AM
I'm not too worried about the defense. The question is whether or not Kubiak, et al, can convince Manning to step back into the shadows a little bit and let us run the ball.

If they can't, it will still be a fun season, with a lot of wins. . . and a disappointing end. What else is new?

Hopefully, Manning listens long and hard to Elway. He can have a mediocre season (from Manning's perspective) and still break the couple of records he has left to break. AND, get another Superbowl win.

NightTrainLayne
07-11-2015, 10:57 AM
Hopefully, Manning listens long and hard to Elway. He can have a mediocre season (from Manning's perspective) and still break the couple of records he has left to break. AND, get another Superbowl win.

Part of the equation is Kubiak et al, creating an effective running game that can prove itself to Manning early. If he isn't confident in the running game, he's not going to want to relinquish control of the offense.

BroncoJoe
07-11-2015, 11:01 AM
Part of the equation is Kubiak et al, creating an effective running game that can prove itself to Manning early. If he isn't confident in the running game, he's not going to want to relinquish control of the offense.

Well, my glasses are pretty orange these days - I have a VERY good feeling about our running game.

EDIT: And our defense!

Northman
07-11-2015, 11:34 AM
Running the ball and running it with success will be important. But overall its just a matter of things coming together in all facets of the team. You have to stay healthy, hope for a better matchup team wise and have some good bounces go your way.

Ravage!!!
07-11-2015, 11:53 AM
I don't think there is a "blue print" on how to beat Manning...or any great QB. That's not how great QBs become great. You can't simply plug in a "formula" and beat him. If thats all it took, EVERYONE would beat them and the teams they lead.

NightTrainLayne
07-11-2015, 11:57 AM
I don't think there is a "blue print" on how to beat Manning...or any great QB. That's not how great QBs become great. You can't simply plug in a "formula" and beat him. If thats all it took, EVERYONE would beat them and the teams they lead.

Few teams have all the players on defense to execute well against Manning.

BroncoWave
07-11-2015, 12:12 PM
I don't think there is a "blue print" on how to beat Manning...or any great QB. That's not how great QBs become great. You can't simply plug in a "formula" and beat him. If thats all it took, EVERYONE would beat them and the teams they lead.

Yeah, obviously there is a style of play that works against him, but that doesn't matter if you don't have the players to execute it.

Ravage!!!
07-11-2015, 12:40 PM
Yeah, obviously there is a style of play that works against him, but that doesn't matter if you don't have the players to execute it.

I think its the same "style" that works against every QB. Try to mess with the timing, and put pressure on the QB. Every defense in the NFL tries to do that. Teams aren't going to 'outsmart' Manning, Rodgers, Brady, Luck, or Brees. Instead, they try to manhandle what they CAN control, and hope it causes enough havoc to cause THOSE players to make mistakes.

Valar Morghulis
07-11-2015, 12:44 PM
I think its the same "style" that works against every QB. Try to mess with the timing, and put pressure on the QB. Every defense in the NFL tries to do that. Teams aren't going to 'outsmart' Manning, Rodgers, Brady, Luck, or Brees. Instead, they try to manhandle what they CAN control, and hope it causes enough havoc to cause THOSE players to make mistakes.

Really, I think Rogers, brees, and luck can all escape the pocket, Brady has more toughness to dust himself off and stand tall the next snap.

Peyton lacks this.

That is why I think the "blueprint" is so applicable to PFM

MOtorboat
07-11-2015, 04:27 PM
The "blueprint" to beat Manning is the blueprint to beat any elite quarterback.

Denver needs to do better finding an early offensive rhythm in each game and hope that carries through to the playoffs. Shanahan, for all his faults, always emphasized first-drive scores, mostly touchdowns, and after last season that's what I'd like to see Kubiak emphasize.

DenBronx
07-11-2015, 04:45 PM
hope the new o line becomes superstars

Not holding my breath on that one.

VonDoom
07-11-2015, 07:02 PM
The simple answer to your question is that PFM doesn't beat teams that know how to beat him and have the personnel to execute that plan.

That is why, when we go up against a team like that (Seattle, etc.), we have to be able to beat them with our team instead of just relying on PFM all by himself. We have to run the ball and play great defense etc.

PFM is great enough to beat a lot of teams all by himself, but when you get into the playoffs, you need to be able to support your QB with other aspects of the team. Your defense can't allow Baltimore to score 38 points, or allow Seattle to completely ignore your running game while jumping all of your pass routes.

This is the simplest and best answer to the question - run game and defense.

Peyton's teams through the years have been great regular season teams when he can do his thing and dominate. Playoffs are usually a different animal. The team needs an identity that is not just PFM trying to outsmart everyone else. That often works (and carried us in 2013 when our defense was in shambles and the injuries were piling up) but if you run into a buzz saw that takes this away, we need something else.

Like most things, though, coaching is a big part of it. The Seahawks should have been able to do to the Patriots the same thing they did to us. However, we had no game plan to beat them and Belichick had a masterful one.

Dapper Dan
07-12-2015, 02:37 AM
In 2012 the Ravens won the Super Bowl. That year they ran the ball 472 times and passed it 560 times during the season. In the playoffs they only passed it 126 times while running it 136 times. In 2013 they ran the ball much less than passing, 405 to 614, and missed the playoffs. In 2014, under Kubiak, they had more similar number to 2012. They ran the ball 435 times and passed 554 times. In the playoffs, they didn't balance out like they did in 2012. They ran it 52 times and passed 74 times. So, will Kubiak have what it takes to run the ball in the playoffs? He doesn't have a ton of experience (4 games).

Jaded
07-12-2015, 08:54 AM
I think this is why Denver wants to get back to being more than just a threat to run a draw play to keep defenses honest.

The good thing about this year is that the running games deficiencies will mesh with Manning's decades-long strengths, in their ZBS Denver typically doesn't give a fat rats ass about goal line, short yardage and pass pro and this is where Manning still excels. Goal line will inevitably feel the loss of JT, tho.

If all else fails we could just "perceive" Manning is better than he is, kinda like we've done for decades when the ZBS racks up tons of yards between the 20's.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
07-12-2015, 10:45 AM
I think this is why Denver wants to get back to being more than just a threat to run a draw play to keep defenses honest.

The good thing about this year is that the running games deficiencies will mesh with Manning's decades-long strengths, in their ZBS Denver typically doesn't give a fat rats ass about goal line, short yardage and pass pro and this is where Manning still excels. Goal line will inevitably feel the loss of JT, tho.

If all else fails we could just "perceive" Manning is better than he is, kinda like we've done for decades when the ZBS racks up tons of yards between the 20's.

Good point-

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
07-12-2015, 10:47 AM
In 2012 the Ravens won the Super Bowl. That year they ran the ball 472 times and passed it 560 times during the season. In the playoffs they only passed it 126 times while running it 136 times. In 2013 they ran the ball much less than passing, 405 to 614, and missed the playoffs. In 2014, under Kubiak, they had more similar number to 2012. They ran the ball 435 times and passed 554 times. In the playoffs, they didn't balance out like they did in 2012. They ran it 52 times and passed 74 times. So, will Kubiak have what it takes to run the ball in the playoffs? He doesn't have a ton of experience (4 games).
I don't know...I thought Baltimore looked really good against NE in NE. They nearly won that game. I think they were just taking what the Patriots were giving them.

Jaded
07-12-2015, 01:39 PM
The running game is back in Denver, it's genuinely been a treat watching Manning run his faggoty spread but it's time to get back to Broncos' football.

I'm excited.

Dapper Dan
07-13-2015, 08:58 AM
Faggety offenses can't win the Super Bowl. Just ask Tom Brady.

BroncoNut
07-13-2015, 09:42 AM
He won't. I don't expect much from our offense this season. we may get to the playoffs, but I'll call it right now as 1 and done if so.

weazel
07-13-2015, 09:47 AM
voodoo

Ravage!!!
07-17-2015, 02:12 PM
Really, I think Rogers, brees, and luck can all escape the pocket, Brady has more toughness to dust himself off and stand tall the next snap.

Peyton lacks this.

That is why I think the "blueprint" is so applicable to PFM

Yet the Giants beat Brad TWICE (in Super Bowls) by applying pressure and getting his timing off. There have been a TON of "mobile" QBs in the NFL, and none have had the success that Manning has had. So there is no "blue print" to beat the Elite QBs that isn't applicatable to all top QBs. Put pressure on the QB and throw off the timing of the offense. That's why teams like the Chiefs...give 100 million to players like Houston. All the while drafting pass rushers in the first round despite having Hali and Houston already on the roster.

THat strategy is no different for anyone. Defense needs to make plays...whether that be getting a fingertip on a pass, or be sure to wrap up the RB out of the backfield. TEAMS win, and having a QB like the top guys always makes your TEAM better. The rest of the TEAM has to step up and do their part.

There is no "formula" to beat Manning........ otherwise teams would have been doing it for the last upteen years to stop him and he wouldn't be the most prolific passer in NFL history.

Valar Morghulis
07-17-2015, 03:15 PM
Yet the Giants beat Brad TWICE (in Super Bowls) by applying pressure and getting his timing off. There have been a TON of "mobile" QBs in the NFL, and none have had the success that Manning has had. So there is no "blue print" to beat the Elite QBs that isn't applicatable to all top QBs. Put pressure on the QB and throw off the timing of the offense. That's why teams like the Chiefs...give 100 million to players like Houston. All the while drafting pass rushers in the first round despite having Hali and Houston already on the roster.

THat strategy is no different for anyone. Defense needs to make plays...whether that be getting a fingertip on a pass, or be sure to wrap up the RB out of the backfield. TEAMS win, and having a QB like the top guys always makes your TEAM better. The rest of the TEAM has to step up and do their part.

There is no "formula" to beat Manning........ otherwise teams would have been doing it for the last upteen years to stop him and he wouldn't be the most prolific passer in NFL history.

great game plans and a shit ton of luck beat brady - but that never stopped him standing tall in the pocket - that was my point. When PFM gets hit, he spends the next quarter playing like a girl. That is why pressure affects pfm more than brady -a s for the others i metioned, they can all escape the pocket and throw on the run - PFM cant. Again highlighting why pressure affects him more.

I cant believe you dont think there is a formula to beat peyton - i think it is obvious - as other posters have said, that does not mean every team can do it, because it relies on well coached, disciplined and excellant players. But the strategy is there - and outside of running the ball and playing great defense, i see no other way to play against those teams (neither does anyone else by the looks of this thread)

Ravage!!!
07-17-2015, 03:24 PM
great game plans and a shit ton of luck beat brady - but that never stopped him standing tall in the pocket - that was my point. When PFM gets hit, he spends the next quarter playing like a girl. That is why pressure affects pfm more than brady -a s for the others i metioned, they can all escape the pocket and throw on the run - PFM cant. Again highlighting why pressure affects him more.

I cant believe you dont think there is a formula to beat peyton - i think it is obvious - as other posters have said, that does not mean every team can do it, because it relies on well coached, disciplined and excellant players. But the strategy is there - and outside of running the ball and playing great defense, i see no other way to play against those teams (neither does anyone else by the looks of this thread)

So its luck for one, and a "strategy" for another. K.

You are right, I don't think you are right and I certainly dn't believe there is a "formula" for beating Manning. Nor do I believe that he plays like a girl after he's been hit. Just sounds like, to me, that you have a problem with Manning more than you have a realistic view as to what is happening on the field.

Valar Morghulis
07-17-2015, 03:47 PM
So its luck for one, and a "strategy" for another. K.

You are right, I don't think you are right and I certainly dn't believe there is a "formula" for beating Manning. Nor do I believe that he plays like a girl after he's been hit. Just sounds like, to me, that you have a problem with Manning more than you have a realistic view as to what is happening on the field.

Just because i love PFM - does not mean that i need to be blinkered to his failings.

And as i see it, whenever he has be been hit - he goes missing for a 1/4, i dont see rodgers, brees or brady doing that. Whenever he gets hit, he will then act like a fainting goat for a few snaps, whenever he gets pressure - he throws it away.

I just dont see what is wrong with admitting that - and trying to work out how to game plan around these things.

But if you dont see it that way - fair enough.

Ravage!!!
07-17-2015, 03:55 PM
Just because i love PFM - does not mean that i need to be blinkered to his failings.

And as i see it, whenever he has be been hit - he goes missing for a 1/4, i dont see rodgers, brees or brady doing that. Whenever he gets hit, he will then act like a fainting goat for a few snaps, whenever he gets pressure - he throws it away.

I just dont see what is wrong with admitting that - and trying to work out how to game plan around these things.

But if you dont see it that way - fair enough.

Its not "admitting" it.....its an opinion. Its not like I'm "not admitting" something that is there.... I just think/feel its an exaggeration made by a frustrated fan. You don't have the success in the NFL to the level that Manning has, by simply 'disappearing' due to pressure.

Its a pretty well known "strategy" for every defense in the NFL to put pressure on the QB...hence why pass rushers get so much money. QBs, Pass rushers, and the LT that goes against the pass rushers and protects the QB. Passing and getting to the passer. The secret of the NFL.

Valar Morghulis
07-17-2015, 03:59 PM
Its not "admitting" it.....its an opinion. Its not like I'm "not admitting" something that is there.... I just think/feel its an exaggeration made by a frustrated fan. You don't have the success in the NFL to the level that Manning has, by simply 'disappearing' due to pressure.

Its a pretty well known "strategy" for every defense in the NFL to put pressure on the QB...hence why pass rushers get so much money. QBs, Pass rushers, and the LT that goes against the pass rushers and protects the QB. Passing and getting to the passer. The secret of the NFL.

ok mate

CrazyHorse
07-26-2015, 10:31 PM
To answer the original question, a strong rushing attack and good defense.