Are the broncos gonna suck at tight end this year?

[sneakers]

My sources say that they won't be as good at that position this year except in blocking

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

no dadgummit, they won't

[chazoe60]

I hope not considering the resources we put into it. Orange Julius was so awful at blocking and so incredibly soft that I won't miss him a bit.

[DenBronx]

Were not going to "suck" because we have Manning. He makes average guys look better than what they really are. However post Manning most likely yes. That's why we should of kept JT, he would have helped a new QB tremendously.

Yes still salty about that one.

[OrangeHoof]

It depends what you expect. If your tight end is supposed to be like a bigger wide receiver running a fast break, yeah, we'll miss JT.

But if you're idea is someone who blocks, sits in the short zone as a second/third option, makes the occassional deep route to keep safeties honest and catches well in traffic, we're fine. Owen Daniels is still good in the 15-20/yd range.

[WARHORSE]

Better this year than last of course. Last year, what did the tight ends do?


Exactly.

[TXBRONC]

My sources say that they won't be as good at that position this year except in blocking

The tight end position will be productive in Denver's new offense.

[MOtorboat]

Here's the list of Denver Broncos tight ends who have caught 10 or more touchdowns in a single season:

Julius Thomas
Shannon Sharpe

I'm sure we'll get way more production without them.

[Dapper Dan]

The whole team sucks. John Elway is the new Josh McDaniels

[Valar Morghulis]

Will any tight end catch ten touchdowns or pick up one thousand yards receiving - I doubt it. Although I do think Green will surprise a few people this year and he might be a fantasy sleeper.

But, they will be functional, with improved run blocking and pass protection - ultimately leading to a similar but different potency in attack.

I also think Daniels is above average as a red zone threat - in the same way manning made several tight ends better than they were - I think we well all be pleasantly surprised.

Lastly, with a more respected run game, there still be more intermediate routes over the middle for Manning to exploit. If we still had Julius, he could dine out all year on team's playing run and us playing pass for 15-20 yrs a go.

But I am an optimist - and garbage at identifying fantasy sleepers (for example, last year, I thought Aj mccarron would be starting and starring by the end of September and the year before I thought old shoelaces would be a revelation in Jacksonville)

[Simple Jaded]

It's a disaster, with The Usher currently in Jacksonville opponents are gonna have to find their own way to the ball carrier and it's going to take another 10 years to replace 10 TD receptions.

[dogfish]

Here's the list of Denver Broncos tight ends who have caught 10 or more touchdowns in a single season:

Julius Thomas
Shannon Sharpe

I'm sure we'll get way more production without them.

bah! yea, the guy is good in the red zone-- but as valuable as that is, exactly how much are you supposed to pay a guy who barely does anything else? :noidea: he's a gawddamned disaster as a blocker, he's basically never healthy, and this past season he rarely caught anything but those TDs. . . it's like dumervil-- you can only spend so much for a one-trick pony, no matter how nice the trick is. . . crap teams like jacksonville overpay for guys like JT-- we had more important concerns, like DT and chris harris. . . no, we won't be as dynamic at TE, but kubes knows how to make it work there. . . we'll end up with more catches, more yards and probably 8+ TDs out of the position for less or equal money (even if stats don't tell the whole story)-- AND get it from guys who can block. . .

so no, sneaks, we won't suck at TE this year, even without herman muenster. . . green is just fine, he'll work out well in GK's scheme-- and daniels makes a solid TE2. . . there won't be glamorous highlights, but they'll get the job done. . . worry about the O-line. . .

[MOtorboat]

It's interesting to me the amount of blame people place on the tight end for the bad running game.

The blocking problem wasn't the tight end. Especially in today's NFL, I don't give a shit about his blocking. Scoring points wins games, not blocking on third and two, because your right tackle blows chunks.

Denver is not Ok at tight end. They have an oft-injured journeyman tight end whose had menial production under Kubiak and a guy whose credited with basically playing right tackle last year because Denver refuses to properly address the position and last year insisted on moving a perfectly good one to left guard and then wouldn't pay him, either. Now, the rookie is hurt.

I don't know what logic you're using to come up with that Denver is fine at tight end, let alone better than the last few years. And, frankly, I don't care about money. It's not mine to spend or save. Making the cap numbers work is always possible.

[sneakers]

bump for shitty knees

[Valar Morghulis]

Is Gresham still available?

[DenBronx]

Is Gresham still available?

I thought he signed somewhere already. I wouldn't of minded seeing him here over the other guys that got picked up.

Can Champ Bailey play TE?

[Valar Morghulis]

I thought he signed somewhere already. I wouldn't of minded seeing him here over the other guys that got picked up.

Can Champ Bailey play TE?

We have good back up at QB - so I would move manning out to tight end.

[Dreadnought]

Owen Daniels alone is an upgrade over Julius Thomas. Even on the downside of his career he is an upgrade.

[MOtorboat]

Owen Daniels alone is an upgrade over Julius Thomas. Even on the downside of his career he is an upgrade.

Good grief.

Based on what?

[SR]

Owen Daniels alone is an upgrade over Julius Thomas. Even on the downside of his career he is an upgrade.

Ehhh I wouldn't go that far Dread. Julius is a top five receiver amongst tight ends. He's a bottom end blocking TE. At this point in his career Daniels is middle of the road in receiving. That being said, Green is one of the better blocking TEs in the league and with Sanders, DT, and hopefully Lattimer emerging Daniels will not have to do much more than be a check down in the flats and on crossing routes.

[Valar Morghulis]

Owen Daniels alone is an upgrade over Julius Thomas. Even on the downside of his career he is an upgrade.

Lol, I am not Orange Julius biggest fan, but this is a bit much!

[Dreadnought]

Lol, I am not Orange Julius biggest fan, but this is a bit much!

Well, I have no use at all for Julius Thomas, so it was an easy statement for me to make :D

[Poet]

Is Gresham still available?

You don't want those problems.

[Simple Jaded]

You don't want those problems.

What is his malfunction?

[Poet]

What is his malfunction?

He gets called for a lot of holding penalties, has horrible drops, runs the wrong routes, and he was cleared to play in the Colts playoff game and took himself out of the game. He benched himself. He fumbles a lot, and runs with the ball unsecured. He doesn't seem to get the coaching to overcome that He did the same thing two weeks prior against Cleveland. After that game he approached Lapham, a Bengals radio guy, in the locker room and yelled at Lapham for talking shit about him. Lapham's 'offense' was that he said he was surprised that Gresham didn't play in the game because he was cleared. Gresham said that Lapham called him soft.

The dude is pure talent. He is a good to great blocker, has the speed to get open, can make tough catches in traffic, and could be an all-world player. He's made a few Pro Bowls and deserved them.

[NightTerror218]

Julius had 1 great season and 1 decent ( last yr with strong start). He is always injured and seems to baby injuries and not push self to get onto the field.

He will prob "injure" ankle againand miss 1/3 of season....mostly since defenses are going to focus in on him and light him up across middle.

[Simple Jaded]

He gets called for a lot of holding penalties, has horrible drops, runs the wrong routes, and he was cleared to play in the Colts playoff game and took himself out of the game. He benched himself. He fumbles a lot, and runs with the ball unsecured. He doesn't seem to get the coaching to overcome that He did the same thing two weeks prior against Cleveland. After that game he approached Lapham, a Bengals radio guy, in the locker room and yelled at Lapham for talking shit about him. Lapham's 'offense' was that he said he was surprised that Gresham didn't play in the game because he was cleared. Gresham said that Lapham called him soft.

The dude is pure talent. He is a good to great blocker, has the speed to get open, can make tough catches in traffic, and could be an all-world player. He's made a few Pro Bowls and deserved them.

Sounds like Ryan Leaf.

If he would he be willing to sign a one-year-prove-it deal Denver could do a lot worse, imo.

Btw, everybody knows who Lapham is, he's a clown.

[BroncoWave]

It's interesting to me the amount of blame people place on the tight end for the bad running game.

The blocking problem wasn't the tight end. Especially in today's NFL, I don't give a shit about his blocking. Scoring points wins games, not blocking on third and two, because your right tackle blows chunks.

Denver is not Ok at tight end. They have an oft-injured journeyman tight end whose had menial production under Kubiak and a guy whose credited with basically playing right tackle last year because Denver refuses to properly address the position and last year insisted on moving a perfectly good one to left guard and then wouldn't pay him, either. Now, the rookie is hurt.

I don't know what logic you're using to come up with that Denver is fine at tight end, let alone better than the last few years. And, frankly, I don't care about money. It's not mine to spend or save. Making the cap numbers work is always possible.

When you have to completely telegraph every play you are running because you can't keep JT on the field for running plays, that is a problem. Makes it harder to execute when the D pretty much knows if you are passing or running based on if JT is on the field or not.

[OrangeHoof]

The current NFL is all about matchups and JT is a matchup problem for most NFL secondaries. Green and Daniels, less so. That said, JT overestimates his worth so when he demanded top dollar, he was shown the door. At what we paid him under his rookie contract, he was a bargain. At what he wanted to be paid as a free agent, he was a liability, preventing other more necessary player acquisitions.

Is Manning going to miss him? Yes, I think so but he knows how to adjust. We'll see more 3-wides and, barring injuries, we'll be fine.

[MOtorboat]

When you have to completely telegraph every play you are running because you can't keep JT on the field for running plays, that is a problem. Makes it harder to execute when the D pretty much knows if you are passing or running based on if JT is on the field or not.

If you have to rely on the blocking of your tight end for the success of your run game, your offensive line blows not the tight end.

[MOtorboat]

This makes me wonder if Seattle and its fans are this obsessed about Jimmy Graham's blocking. I'm going to guess "no" on that one.

Why? Because they have an offensive line worth a shit and don't have to rely on a blocking tight end to move the ball.

[Northman]

Seattle has a much better defense, a mobile QB, one of the best RB's in the game so they kind of of had the luxury to sign a guy like Graham. If Denver was half as good as Seattle has been the last couple of years they could afford to pay JT the kind of money he wanted.

[MOtorboat]

Seattle has a much better defense, a mobile QB, one of the best RB's in the game so they kind of of had the luxury to sign a guy like Graham. If Denver was half as good as Seattle has been the last couple of years they could afford to pay JT the kind of money he wanted.

Julius Thomas' blocking wasn't a problem when Orlando Franklin was at right tackle, either.

[Northman]

Julius Thomas' blocking wasn't a problem when Orlando Franklin was at right tackle, either.

Really doesnt matter, he wasnt worth what he was asking for.

[MOtorboat]

Really doesnt matter, he wasnt worth what he was asking for.

I don't disagree. But that leaves Denver with a hole at tight end.

[tripp]

We sucked in the RZ without JT. I keep thinking of the KC and Cinci game. I hope Owen Daniels proves to be a satisfactory replacement. If not, I'd like to see Virgil Green be given a legitimate shot to step up.

[Simple Jaded]

Broncos will have to go back to drawing board because they won't replace JT's redzone threat with a TE.

[G_Money]

Broncos will have to go back to drawing board because they won't replace JT's redzone threat with a TE.

In theory, with DT and Latimer both able to go up and get it, they shouldn't have to. It'll just be a scheme adjustment to pull the linebackers forward with either the slot receiver, TE or FB in the flat to give seam space for one of the big wides. It shouldn't be THAT hard... right?

[CoachChaz]

In theory, with DT and Latimer both able to go up and get it, they shouldn't have to. It'll just be a scheme adjustment to pull the linebackers forward with either the slot receiver, TE or FB in the flat to give seam space for one of the big wides. It shouldn't be THAT hard... right?

In preparation...no. But execution is another story

[chazoe60]

Owen Daniels and Virgil Green are a pretty good pair of TEs IMHO. I really think Virgil is going to have a break out season. There's no doubt that we don't have the same pass catching/route running talent that we had with JT but we gain toughness, blocking, attitude, and professionalism. Seems like a decent trade off in my book.

[weazel]

yeah, and deflategate.


did I do it right?

[dogfish]

when was the last time manning didn't throw a bazillion TDs? he'll get it figured out-- the GOAT passer doesn't need julius thomas. . .

[Valar Morghulis]

when was the last time manning didn't throw a bazillion TDs? he'll get it figured out-- the GOAT passer doesn't need julius thomas. . .

Bazillion lol

[BroncoJoe]

when was the last time manning didn't throw a bazillion TDs? he'll get it figured out-- the GOAT passer doesn't need julius thomas. . .

Oh, you are SO on MO's shit list now!

[dogfish]

Oh, you are SO on MO's shit list now!

but MO loves me!

[Northman]

but MO loves me!

Pfft, no he doesnt.

[dogfish]

Pfft, no he doesnt.

you're just jealous. . . :coffee:

[MOtorboat]

Dog's opinion on the subject makes me take pause, but I still think there's a gigantic hole at tight end, especially in the red zone.

[TXBRONC]

when was the last time manning didn't throw a bazillion TDs? he'll get it figured out-- the GOAT passer doesn't need julius thomas. . .

Denver's tight ends more than likely won't have as many touchdowns but if the running game is producing more touchdowns and evenso Manning should still put pretty impressive numbers.

[Cugel]

Were not going to "suck" because we have Manning. He makes average guys look better than what they really are. However post Manning most likely yes. That's why we should of kept JT, he would have helped a new QB tremendously.

Yes still salty about that one.

The dude turned down an $8 million a year contract. He turned it down flat and held out for $9 million and was willing to go to Jacksonville to get it.

The Broncos felt that he didn't play hurt and gave up on plays to preserve himself because he was heading into FA. In short they didn't like his "me first" attitude. I don't necessarily agree, but according to a lot of Broncos insiders that various Denver radio guys were talking to, the buzz around Dove Valley was clearly not in favor of re-signing J.T. and in fact they didn't even contact his agent after the season. They just let him go. Didn't want him back.

The Broncos will definitely miss his pass catching ability. He was a matchup nightmare that NONE of the TEs on the current roster can remotely hope to match. But, they can block and J.T. never wanted to or could learn how to block consistently.

Blocking is an absolute must in the ZBS system, especially with Peyton Manning about as mobile as an Equestrian Statue. So, it just wasn't a good fit. I mean seriously, Peyton's fathead moves faster than the original. So, you need everybody on the line to be able to block.

It's no surprise that J.T. never learned to do that. He wasn't a football player at all until college. Can you even imagine a guy who just decided he wanted to become a major league baseball player at 19 or something, played 2 years in college and then made it to MLB? Or taking up tennis or golf and wanting to go on the pro-tour in those sports if you didn't start before the age of 10?

It would be absolutely impossible. In most sports if you weren't playing at age 7 or 8 forget it. Take ski racing for instance: America's Mikela Shiffrin, the slalom gold medalist at the last Olympics, and the Wold Cup Slalom winner for the last 2 years, won her first world cup slalom title at 18. She was competing internationally from the age of 14 and was on the world cup tour at 17. Those top gymnasts are Olympians at 15, etc.

J.T. just isn't a complete football player and never will be. He's a major threat as a pass-catcher but just doesn't block well.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The dude turned down an $8 million a year contract. He turned it down flat and held out for $9 million and was willing to go to Jacksonville to get it.

The Broncos felt that he didn't play hurt and gave up on plays to preserve himself because he was heading into FA. In short they didn't like his "me first" attitude. I don't necessarily agree, but according to a lot of Broncos insiders that various Denver radio guys were talking to, the buzz around Dove Valley was clearly not in favor of re-signing J.T. and in fact they didn't even contact his agent after the season. They just let him go. Didn't want him back.

The Broncos will definitely miss his pass catching ability. He was a matchup nightmare that NONE of the TEs on the current roster can remotely hope to match. But, they can block and J.T. never wanted to or could learn how to block consistently.

Blocking is an absolute must in the ZBS system, especially with Peyton Manning about as mobile as an Equestrian Statue. So, it just wasn't a good fit. I mean seriously, Peyton's fathead moves faster than the original. So, you need everybody on the line to be able to block.

It's no surprise that J.T. never learned to do that. He wasn't a football player at all until college. Can you even imagine a guy who just decided he wanted to become a major league baseball player at 19 or something, played 2 years in college and then made it to MLB? Or taking up tennis or golf and wanting to go on the pro-tour in those sports if you didn't start before the age of 10?

It would be absolutely impossible. In most sports if you weren't playing at age 7 or 8 forget it. Take ski racing for instance: America's Mikela Shiffrin, the slalom gold medalist at the last Olympics, and the Wold Cup Slalom winner for the last 2 years, won her first world cup slalom title at 18. She was competing internationally from the age of 14 and was on the world cup tour at 17. Those top gymnasts are Olympians at 15, etc.

J.T. just isn't a complete football player and never will be. He's a major threat as a pass-catcher but just doesn't block well.

You make valid points, I would just like to interject that Gates was a basketball player who decided to learn to block and turned into a pretty good blocker. Blocking is about will and attitude. If said jackass can learn a route tree, then he can learn to block too.

[Simple Jaded]

JT has never been a football player, not yet anyway, he's a bed wetting basketball player.

[Dreadnought]

The number of TD catches is a deceptive and not very useful stat, useful mostly for Fantasy Football geeks. Kyle Johnson caught 5 TD passes in 2005 on 17 receptions. The immortal Patrick Hape had 4 TD catches in 2004 on 8 receptions overall. If anyone thinks that either of those guys were major pass catching threats...well, that would be wrong. TD catches, and often the number of TD throws by a QB is hugely impacted by play selection and less by the receiver having some unique irreplaceable skill set. I don't think JT's skill set is all that unique or irreplaceable, and his downsides were and are huge.

[MOtorboat]

Scoring touchdowns is so 2013.

[Dreadnought]

Scoring touchdowns is so 2013.

You should argue your point instead of being snarky and insulting. It would help your case immeasurably.

[Ravage!!!]

The number of TD catches is a deceptive and not very useful stat, useful mostly for Fantasy Football geeks. Kyle Johnson caught 5 TD passes in 2005 on 17 receptions. The immortal Patrick Hape had 4 TD catches in 2004 on 8 receptions overall. If anyone thinks that either of those guys were major pass catching threats...well, that would be wrong. TD catches, and often the number of TD throws by a QB is hugely impacted by play selection and less by the receiver having some unique irreplaceable skill set. I don't think JT's skill set is all that unique or irreplaceable, and his downsides were and are huge.

There is a reason that JT is considered a "Problem" for defenses to handle, and its not because of the volume of throws that Manning puts his way. It's because he's extremely difficult to deal with. Too large for CBs, and too fast for LBs. It's why Manning threw to him, and its why he was open for all those TD passes.

Your examples of the TEs you just gave, caught passes because NO ONE was concerned about them. Yes, they caught a pass here and there, but was never a threat DURING the other parts of the game. Thus, they didn't create mismatches, and dictate to the defense the packages or personnel they had to put on the field to DEAL with that mis-match problem. THat is something JT does create. He creates mis-matches that the defense HAS to try and account for.

We missed having Decker in the redzone as well. People wanted to say that our offense would be "fine" without him. But it wasn't fine in scoring. Sanders was faster, but not NEAR the threat in the red-zone as Decker is/was. Now we take yet another BIG red-zone threat away from the offense. That absolutely WILL make things more difficult to score the points that this offense has been used to scoring. It dropped big-time last year, and it will drop again.

Complain allllll we want about his blocking, but it wasn't his blocking that was setting NFL records for scoring TDs nor that blocking that helped take us to the Super Bowl.

[MOtorboat]

You should argue your point instead of being snarky and insulting. It would help your case immeasurably.

Well, when the argument is that anyone can replace an all pro and touchdowns really aren't that important there's not a whole lot to be serious about.

[Poet]

Listen, you take an athlete like that and give him to a good QB and he's going to have a sick season. The answer that any blocker TE is actually better than JT falls into old school notions of football that died...in the early 2000's. With that being said, Manning can get TE production by committee and off of the playaction, so losing a guy like JT hurts Manning less than it might hurt others.

Sometimes really good players cost too much.

[Poet]

The number of TD catches is a deceptive and not very useful stat, useful mostly for Fantasy Football geeks. Kyle Johnson caught 5 TD passes in 2005 on 17 receptions. The immortal Patrick Hape had 4 TD catches in 2004 on 8 receptions overall. If anyone thinks that either of those guys were major pass catching threats...well, that would be wrong. TD catches, and often the number of TD throws by a QB is hugely impacted by play selection and less by the receiver having some unique irreplaceable skill set. I don't think JT's skill set is all that unique or irreplaceable, and his downsides were and are huge.

Those guys were one year wonders and were not dynamic miss matches that could dominate a game. That's not a fair comparison to JT. I think the truth of the matter is that JT is a really good player who will rot in Jacksonville.

[BroncoJoe]

JT didn't want to be here, and because of that he's dead to me. His head got WAY too big - bigger than his worth IMO.

Manning's numbers will not suffer because JT is in Jacksonville. His 10 TD's will be replaced by a combination of WR/RB/TE touchdowns. Maybe not all passing, but we'll score just as much without JT as we did with him.

[Valar Morghulis]

JT didn't want to be here, and because of that he's dead to me. His head go WAY too big - bigger than his worth IMO.

Manning's numbers will not suffer because JT is in Jacksonville. His 10 TD's will be replaced by a combination of WR/RB/TE touchdowns. Maybe not all passing, but we'll score just as much without JT as we did with him.

Who is this JT chap anyway?

[Poet]

Joe, you're a business man, how can you be mad at a guy who made a business decision?

[BroncoJoe]

Joe, you're a business man, how can you be mad at a guy who made a business decision?

He went against family King. Family.

Being serious, I thought he'd have a bit more loyalty to the Broncos, since we gave him an opportunity and basically paid him a salary for 1 1/2 years for doing nothing. He had a couple good seasons - with one of the greatest QB's in the game. He left for $1 million over what, 3-4 years?

Dead to me.

[Poet]

He went against family King. Family.

Being serious, I thought he'd have a bit more loyalty to the Broncos, since we gave him an opportunity and basically paid him a salary for 1 1/2 years for doing nothing. He had a couple good seasons - with one of the greatest QB's in the game. He left for $1 million over what, 3-4 years?

Dead to me.

That's a lot of money, Joe. Home town discounts don't really happen that much. It's a business.

[Poet]

JT didn't want to be here, and because of that he's dead to me. His head got WAY too big - bigger than his worth IMO.

Manning's numbers will not suffer because JT is in Jacksonville. His 10 TD's will be replaced by a combination of WR/RB/TE touchdowns. Maybe not all passing, but we'll score just as much without JT as we did with him.

Maybe the numbers are but the manner in which they scored will not be, and that matters. J. T. offered a truly dynamic miss-match. Red zone boss while still being able to go long yardage? They are not a lot of tight ends that can do what he can do.

[Dreadnought]

Those guys were one year wonders and were not dynamic miss matches that could dominate a game. That's not a fair comparison to JT. I think the truth of the matter is that JT is a really good player who will rot in Jacksonville.

Of course they were. Hell, they were not even one year wonders, that's my whole freakin' point. Clarence Kay could catch TD passes off of a 2 yard play action fake, too. I mean he could do it today, at age 53, if you draw it up and set it up right. So could Mitch freakin' Unrein.

Of course JT is much faster, more athletic, what have you than any of those. He also makes play action less plausible simply by the fact that he so utterly blows as a blocker. Not merely inadequate, he is the single worst TE I have ever seen as a blocker. I say that as a fan of pass catching TE's rather than old school road graders.

You talk about "business decisions"...as in the "business decision" he made every time he avoided contact. His loss is addition by subtraction.

[GEM]

Well, when the argument is that anyone can replace an all pro and touchdowns really aren't that important there's not a whole lot to be serious about.

Who is saying that? I haven't read that here, other than Dread and the silly Owen Daniels is better than Jt comment. We couldn't afford him and apparently he didn't want to be here....offered $8 Mil, he took $9 Mil to go play in the dump of a franchise that is Jax. We don't have a player that can replace him, but we have a few players that can handle the position. Losing JT is not the end of the world.

[MOtorboat]

Who is saying that? I haven't read that here, other than Dread and the silly Owen Daniels is better than Jt comment. We couldn't afford him and apparently he didn't want to be here....offered $8 Mil, he took $9 Mil to go play in the dump of a franchise that is Jax. We don't have a player that can replace him, but we have a few players that can handle the position. Losing JT is not the end of the world.

And I was replying to the person who said that, so yes, someone did say that.

[Timmy!]

Mo loves JT like North loves the Pats.

[dogfish]

I say that as a fan of pass catching TE's rather than old school road graders.


it's true. . . dread is a big tony scheffler fan, he loves soft TEs. . .


:D

[Poet]

Of course they were. Hell, they were not even one year wonders, that's my whole freakin' point. Clarence Kay could catch TD passes off of a 2 yard play action fake, too. I mean he could do it today, at age 53, if you draw it up and set it up right. So could Mitch freakin' Unrein.

Of course JT is much faster, more athletic, what have you than any of those. He also makes play action less plausible simply by the fact that he so utterly blows as a blocker. Not merely inadequate, he is the single worst TE I have ever seen as a blocker. I say that as a fan of pass catching TE's rather than old school road graders.

You talk about "business decisions"...as in the "business decision" he made every time he avoided contact. His loss is addition by subtraction.

Julius Thomas was doing far more than just being sort of open on two yard plays, Dread. He's basically a slot receiver and not a real tight end. Jimmy Graham is sort of a thing too, no? Guys like him are few and far between and he creates matchup nightmares.

[MOtorboat]

Mo loves JT like North loves the Pats.

No, I just don't understand why this team punted on having a receiving tight end.

People complain about how "soft" Thomas was and Daniels has missed seven more games than Thomas the last two years. And he's eight years older. He's not nearly the receiver Thomas was and is a clear downgrade at the position. Instead of trying to improve the position through the draft they drafted Huermann (sp?) who is an exact clone of the blocking tight end whose already starting who has zero impact in the passing game.

Everyone complains that Thomas was one dimensional, well so is Green.

And yes, Thomas priced himself higher than the Broncos could afford. I get that. But this team didn't even attempt to replace him.

You can't just put Clarence Kay at tight end and reproduce 10 touchdowns. That's absurd. Kay had 13 touchdowns in nine seasons in a play-action offense with the best quarterback ever. It's not that easy.

[TXBRONC]

No, I just don't understand why this team punted on having a receiving tight end.

People complain about how "soft" Thomas was and Daniels has missed seven more games than Thomas the last two years. And he's eight years older. He's not nearly the receiver Thomas was and is a clear downgrade at the position. Instead of trying to improve the position through the draft they drafted Huermann (sp?) who is an exact clone of the blocking tight end whose already starting who has zero impact in the passing game.

Everyone complains that Thomas was one dimensional, well so is Green.

And yes, Thomas priced himself higher than the Broncos could afford. I get that. But this team didn't even attempt to replace him.

You can't just put Clarence Kay at tight end and reproduce 10 touchdowns. That's absurd. Kay had 13 touchdowns in nine seasons in a play-action offense with the best quarterback ever. It's not that easy.

To say they didn't even try to replace J. Thomas is not accurate. You don't have to like how they went about it but the fact is they have done something. The team isn't going fail to score points in the red zone just because J. Thomas isn't here anymore. There are other ways to score touchdowns in the red zone besides throwing to the tight end.

[DenBronx]

After 1 game I am not impressed. I get that it's still early but I think Manning needs that security blanket of a pass catching TE and a solid slot WR.

Loss: Welker and Julius. 2 huge losses for not only redzone options but easy dink and dunk type of plays that Manning liked as well as 3rd down options.

I don't want to rehash the losses of free agency. I think we have beat a dead horse on that issue.

But who will step up? I love me some Sanders but he won't be able to bail us out on 3rd downs all season. Will Green be able to step up? Can we utilize Latimer as a slot WR because I think Sanders is way more explosive on the edges. In fact, Sanders mostly flanker last game. Caldwell? Who can be that 3rd go to option for Manning?

Clearly there has been a decline at TE. I get that we wanted to block more but we robbed ourselves of a very valuable option for Manning.

Would anyone want to see Reggie Wayne come here as a slot WR?

[TXBRONC]

After 1 game I am not impressed. I get that it's still early but I think Manning needs that security blanket of a pass catching TE and a solid slot WR.

Loss: Welker and Julius. 2 huge losses for not only redzone options but easy dink and dunk type of plays that Manning liked as well as 3rd down options.

I don't want to rehash the losses of free agency. I think we have beat a dead horse on that issue.

But who will step up? I love me some Sanders but he won't be able to bail us out on 3rd downs all season. Will Green be able to step up? Can we utilize Latimer as a slot WR because I think Sanders is way more explosive on the edges. In fact, Sanders mostly flanker last game. Caldwell? Who can be that 3rd go to option for Manning?

Clearly there has been a decline at TE. I get that we wanted to block more but we robbed ourselves of a very valuable option for Manning.

Would anyone want to see Reggie Wayne come here as a slot WR?

I wouldn't say Denver robbed themselves of a valuable pass catching tight end. I would say J. Thomas went were he could get the biggest pay check.

Honestly Den, not at his age and two team in less than one year have given him the boot.

[DenBronx]

After 1 game I am not impressed. I get that it's still early but I think Manning needs that security blanket of a pass catching TE and a solid slot WR.

Loss: Welker and Julius. 2 huge losses for not only redzone options but easy dink and dunk type of plays that Manning liked as well as 3rd down options.

I don't want to rehash the losses of free agency. I think we have beat a dead horse on that issue.

But who will step up? I love me some Sanders but he won't be able to bail us out on 3rd downs all season. Will Green be able to step up? Can we utilize Latimer as a slot WR because I think Sanders is way more explosive on the edges. In fact, Sanders mostly flanker last game. Caldwell? Who can be that 3rd go to option for Manning?

Clearly there has been a decline at TE. I get that we wanted to block more but we robbed ourselves of a very valuable option for Manning.

Would anyone want to see Reggie Wayne come here as a slot WR?

I wouldn't say Denver robbed themselves of a valuable pass catching tight end. I would say J. Thomas went were he could get the biggest pay check.

Honestly Den, not at his age and two team in less than one year have given him the boot.



Who then? DT and Sanders won't be able to do it all themselves this year alone. I don't see Daniels or Green being a wow factor. When I look at high powered offenses they usually have a Witten, Gronk, Graham or Kelce...that dude exploded last week! It opens up so much for an offense.

Next option is a slot guy. Since pass catching TEs are very rare then I think a slot WR would help in many ways. Like I said, we didn't really use Sanders in slot last game. DBs can't seem to cover him on edges so why take him out of his element and put him in slot? That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Unless Latimer is going to step up as a #2 guy. Not holding my breath on that one.

[DenBronx]

Or running game does what it's supposed to do in a Kubiak offense. -_-

Kinda on edge with this KC defense and our offense woes. Don't have a good feeling about this game.

[TXBRONC]

Who then? DT and Sanders won't be able to do it all themselves this year alone. I don't see Daniels or Green being a wow factor. When I look at high powered offenses they usually have a Witten, Gronk, Graham or Kelce...that dude exploded last week! It opens up so much for an offense.

Next option is a slot guy. Since pass catching TEs are very rare then I think a slot WR would help in many ways. Like I said, we didn't really use Sanders in slot last game. DBs can't seem to cover him on edges so why take him out of his element and put him in slot? That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Unless Latimer is going to step up as a #2 guy. Not holding my breath on that one.

Den, I don't think Wayne has ever been a slot receiver and two teams gave up on him so it's safe to wonder what he has left in the tank. Besides that who does Denver cut to make room for him? It would probably be someone who plays on special teams like Bennie Fowler. If we cut Fowler I shutter to think what kind of mindset Dogfish would be in. :eek:

[DenBronx]

Yeah, we have to keep dog aka hophead happy TX. Above all else...Lol

[Ravage!!!]

IF Reggie Wayne came to the team, he wouldn't be the slot, he would be the Z WR and Sanders would move to the slot. That would make much more sense considering Sander's skill set and quickness compared to Wayne.

But I'll continue to believe that the loss of Decker and now JT over the last couple of years... as well as Welker, are some serious.... SERIOUS, losses to this offense. An offense can only take so many hits, and trying to replace those hits over and over again, leaves giant holes. Right now, our slot and pass catching TE, are big big holes that just aren't available for this team.

[DenBronx]

IF Reggie Wayne came to the team, he wouldn't be the slot, he would be the Z WR and Sanders would move to the slot. That would make much more sense considering Sander's skill set and quickness compared to Wayne.

But I'll continue to believe that the loss of Decker and now JT over the last couple of years... as well as Welker, are some serious.... SERIOUS, losses to this offense. An offense can only take so many hits, and trying to replace those hits over and over again, leaves giant holes. Right now, our slot and pass catching TE, are big big holes that just aren't available for this team.

I kinda wanted James Jones for cheap but the Packers picked him up when Jordy got injured. If Wayne came here then yes, absolutely, Sanders in the slot would make alot of sense. I think Waynes speed has declined but he still knows how to run a route.

Hopefully Latimer puts this debate to rest Thursday night. I believe Demaryius is going to have a huge huge game and Manning throws 2-3 TDs. KCs defense will put us to the test.

[Ravage!!!]

I kinda wanted James Jones for cheap but the Packers picked him up when Jordy got injured. If Wayne came here then yes, absolutely, Sanders in the slot would make alot of sense. I think Waynes speed has declined but he still knows how to run a route.

Hopefully Latimer puts this debate to rest Thursday night. I believe Demaryius is going to have a huge huge game and Manning throws 2-3 TDs. KCs defense will put us to the test.

Considering Jones just came from the Packer offense, it was almost a given that he would sign with the Packers. Hell, I'd bet he asked to be released so that he could then go sign with them as soon as the new hit that Jordy was injured.

Wayne looked pretty decent last year with Indy. He's obviously not the same Wayne of old, but he can provide some kind of "knowhow" in finding the holes. He most probably wouldn't be a starter, but, maybe he's declined faster than Manning has this season.

KC is pretty good, and I know their special teams are VERY VERY good. We will have a long field alllllll game long, as their punter is the master about pinning teams inside the 5. They are pretty spectacular at downing the ball before it hits the goal line. It's so good, it feels like its unfair. So I feel its going to be another game with few scoring chances and a game of field position. It's why I grabbed their FG kicker for my fantasy league this week.

[Simple Jaded]

Denver got just as much production out of JT this week as the Jags did.

I wonder if the Jags will miss him too.

[dogfish]

After 1 game I am not impressed. I get that it's still early but I think Manning needs that security blanket of a pass catching TE and a solid slot WR.

Loss: Welker and Julius. 2 huge losses for not only redzone options but easy dink and dunk type of plays that Manning liked as well as 3rd down options.

I don't want to rehash the losses of free agency. I think we have beat a dead horse on that issue.

But who will step up? I love me some Sanders but he won't be able to bail us out on 3rd downs all season. Will Green be able to step up? Can we utilize Latimer as a slot WR because I think Sanders is way more explosive on the edges. In fact, Sanders mostly flanker last game. Caldwell? Who can be that 3rd go to option for Manning?


it's probably going to be jordan norwood, playing out of the slot. . .



Yeah, we have to keep dog aka hophead happy TX. Above all else...Lol

absolutely!

[Dzone]

I watched Owen Daniels on a couple plays. He looked slooowwwww

[Northman]

I watched Owen Daniels on a couple plays. He looked slooowwwww

Yea, but how fast was he compared to a guy on injury reserve? lmao

[Ravage!!!]

Yea, but how fast was he compared to a guy on injury reserve? lmao

Jt is still faster, whether hurt hand or not.

[slim]

Were not going to "suck" because we have Manning. He makes average guys look better than what they really are. However post Manning most likely yes. That's why we should of kept JT, he would have helped a new QB tremendously.

Yes still salty about that one.
Lol

[dogfish]

it's probably going to be jordan norwood, playing out of the slot. . .



so, did you guys hear what emmanuel sanders said when deion asked him the same question?



:D

[Valar Morghulis]

so, did you guys hear what emmanuel sanders said when deion asked him the same question? :D

No. What did he say

[silkamilkamonico]

I watched Owen Daniels on a couple plays. He looked slooowwwww

Very slow. Denver needs to keep his ass on the bench and keep Jordan Norwood out on the field.

[underrated29]

Yes, what did he say?

[CrazyHorse]

I think given the chance Virgil Green could surprise some people. Owen Daniels reminds me of a Tamme, or Clark type TE.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Our TE's made some clutch plays tonight.

[Poet]

Games like these are why guys like Thomas matter. Giving a QB a security blanket who can run the middle of the field as well as shallow routes takes pressure off the QB.

I did not see any tight on the field come close to being able to block well enough to make up for that loss. If the notion is to go back to Manning's offense (which I feel Kubiak has no choice but to do so) then those who oppose J.T. pretty much have to concede the point. In 2015 if your TE is a stud receiver his poor blocking is marginal at best. If your team can't run block to save it's life it really, really, really does not matter at all.

I'm curious - if you can't pay him you can't pay him, but was Denver really in a position where they could not pay him? Because if it was plausible, even if he wasn't playing tonight, him coming back would have been something to really look forward to.

[MOtorboat]

Games like these are why guys like Thomas matter. Giving a QB a security blanket who can run the middle of the field as well as shallow routes takes pressure off the QB.

I did not see any tight on the field come close to being able to block well enough to make up for that loss. If the notion is to go back to Manning's offense (which I feel Kubiak has no choice but to do so) then those who oppose J.T. pretty much have to concede the point. In 2015 if your TE is a stud receiver his poor blocking is marginal at best. If your team can't run block to save it's life it really, really, really does not matter at all.

I'm curious - if you can't pay him you can't pay him, but was Denver really in a position where they could not pay him? Because if it was plausible, even if he wasn't playing tonight, him coming back would have been something to really look forward to.

He should have been paid. Denver lowballed him and he called their bluff. It was easily possible to work a contract around the cap.

[Poet]

He should have been paid. Denver lowballed him and he called their bluff. It was easily possible to work a contract around the cap.

If Denver just put him in the slot every (not literally but you know what I mean) play then you would be under paying him if he were a WR.


On a side note, although TE related, looks like you had a point about Eifert. Even if he doesn't pan out, the talent to be a guy who puts up...wait for the irony...numbers like J.T. did in Denver is very real.

He's also not much of a blocker.

[MOtorboat]

If Denver just put him in the slot every (not literally but you know what I mean) play then you would be under paying him if he were a WR.


On a side note, although TE related, looks like you had a point about Eifert. Even if he doesn't pan out, the talent to be a guy who puts up...wait for the irony...numbers like J.T. did in Denver is very real.

He's also not much of a blocker.

And Cincinnati doesn't give a shit about his blocking. Why? Because their line doesn't blow.

[dogfish]

Games like these are why guys like Thomas matter. Giving a QB a security blanket who can run the middle of the field as well as shallow routes takes pressure off the QB.

I did not see any tight on the field come close to being able to block well enough to make up for that loss. If the notion is to go back to Manning's offense (which I feel Kubiak has no choice but to do so) then those who oppose J.T. pretty much have to concede the point. In 2015 if your TE is a stud receiver his poor blocking is marginal at best. If your team can't run block to save it's life it really, really, really does not matter at all.

I'm curious - if you can't pay him you can't pay him, but was Denver really in a position where they could not pay him? Because if it was plausible, even if he wasn't playing tonight, him coming back would have been something to really look forward to.

i love you. . . but you are a silly man! :lol:


two games, my friend. . . two games. . .

1. kubiak and manning WILL mesh
2. julius thomas is a soft, sorry punk
3. and he's hurt, again-- notice a trend here?
4. he's out of the league in a couple of years
5. that money's going to the defense
6. our depth at WR is straight nasty, forget TEs
7. 2-0, and we haven't played three good quarters yet


:defense:

[dogfish]

Yes, what did he say?

look for it on Utube tomorrow, but short version, he said norwood can be that guy. . . and some other good stuff, see if it gets posted. . .

[Poet]

i love you. . . but you are a silly man! :lol:


two games, my friend. . . two games. . .

1. kubiak and manning WILL mesh
2. julius thomas is a soft, sorry punk
3. and he's hurt, again-- notice a trend here?
4. he's out of the league in a couple of years
5. that money's going to the defense
6. our depth at WR is straight nasty, forget TEs
7. 2-0, and we haven't played three good quarters yet


:defense:

Kubiak is a hack coach who is going to have to hand it back over to Manning. In fact, when Manning looked good there were suddenly less Kubiak moments. Hmm..

J.T. can be soft. Deion Sanders might be the best corner ever, he didn't tackle. Randy Moss wasn't a blocker and was soft. You can be soft and be a skill position player. The way that he, and many other players are used in today's game makes them position, or skill players. He's a hybrid WR for Christ's sake.

Yeah, he's hurt. But what happens when he is on the field? Is it something along the lines of dominating defenses, dictating what they can and cannot do, and being useful in regards to mitigating a pass rush? Because if it is then suddenly I can understand why teams have put up with..wait for it...tight ends who can catch. Because the Patriots will put up with Gronk missing games, the Saints and the 'Hawks understand what Jimmy Graham is as well.

The Broncos aren't built for long term success.

That money going to the defense is fine, but somehow I think the gains to the defense isn't going to be commensurate with the loss to the offense.

What depth at WR? Lattimer is and has done nothing, Caldwell is still a minor player, after Sanders and DT who do you have that is good? Norwood? Those are the guys who are supposed to make me forget about J.T.?

Yes, you're 2-0, and in both games Thomas would have made the game more bearable and taken pressure off of PFM. You wouldn't have needed a crazy int at the end of the game to win, and you wouldn't have needed Jamal Charles doing his best Tiki Barber impersonation to get the win, either. In other words, the victories would have been less precarious, more likely to have occurred, and PFM wouldn't have been rim-rocked as much.

We can disagree, my friend, but I'm not seeing much of a refutation.

[Poet]

And Cincinnati doesn't give a shit about his blocking. Why? Because their line doesn't blow.

We do have one of the best lines in football, and have had such a line for about three years now. We have also drafted two tackles so that this tradition might continue.

We can also, if we have to, have Eifert block and still run the play-action. Much like the Broncos were able to do at certain points in J.T.'s tenure in Denver.

[dogfish]

Kubiak is a hack coach who is going to have to hand it back over to Manning. In fact, when Manning looked good there were suddenly less Kubiak moments. Hmm..

J.T. can be soft. Deion Sanders might be the best corner ever, he didn't tackle. Randy Moss wasn't a blocker and was soft. You can be soft and be a skill position player.

my man!


i AM gonna read the rest of it, but we really could just stop here, at the point where you somehow referenced a couple first ballot guys in a conversation about julius thomas. . .


that's probably solid grounds for a contempt of court ruling, just right there. . .

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Damnit, I wish JT was soaking in the tub here in Denver!

[Poet]

my man!


i AM gonna read the rest of it, but we really could just stop here, at the point where you somehow referenced a couple first ballot guys in a conversation about julius thomas. . .


that's probably solid grounds for a contempt of court ruling, just right there. . .

Now hold on, because J.T. was producing at a HoF pace. Does that mean he would get there, not necessarily. But, were I to pander to you, well one can find tight ends who were not physical for shit. Someone jokingly brought up Scheffler, for instance. T.S.'s ability to block in addition to catch were not remotely close to that of J.T.'s worth on the field.

So realistically speaking, to your counterpoint I have this - either those guys got away with being soft because they were so good, or, one can be soft and run the gambit between, bad, subpar, below average, above average, good, great, all-time great, or however you would wish to qualify it.

At least as I see it.

[dogfish]

Now hold on, because J.T. was producing at a HoF pace. Does that mean he would get there, not necessarily. But, were I to pander to you, well one can find tight ends who were not physical for shit. Someone jokingly brought up Scheffler, for instance. T.S.'s ability to block in addition to catch were not remotely close to that of J.T.'s worth on the field.

So realistically speaking, to your counterpoint I have this - either those guys got away with being soft because they were so good, or, one can be soft and run the gambit between, bad, subpar, below average, above average, good, great, all-time great, or however you would wish to qualify it.

At least as I see it.

hey-o, this i can address briefly. . . JT produced @ a HOF clip for all of what, maybe 16 months? in the era of inflated passing game numbers?


your boy says, "child, please". . .

:D


neon and randy are both no-brainer top-five all-time at their position. . . when you're one of the best wide receivers to ever put cleats on, you can get away w/ being a weak blocker. . . julius hasn't quite earned his way into that eschelon yet. . . trust me, that kid is closer to out of the league than the freaking hall of fame!

[Poet]

To be fair, we know that he would continue to produce at that level with a real QB. We know that because he's the peer to Gronk, Graham, and Eifert (I hope). In other words, you can deal with him being soft because it's worth you while. And let's also be clear, his style of play helps alleviate pressure on the QB. Slants, screens, quick outs, all things that JT was great at, all things that punish the pass rush. And I agree, he's closer to out of the league than the HoF, but Denver is in the ultimate win now mode, which, in other words, renders that point moot.

The offense got worse as soon as he was. The notion that some blocking TE was going to come in and make things better was predicated always nonsense. The whole addition by subtraction thing was predicated on Denver fans being salty and nothing more.

[Timmy!]

Joel is viewing this thread.

[dogfish]

To be fair, we know that he would continue to produce at that level with a real QB. We know that because he's the peer to Gronk, Graham, and Eifert (I hope). In other words, you can deal with him being soft because it's worth you while. And let's also be clear, his style of play helps alleviate pressure on the QB. Slants, screens, quick outs, all things that JT was great at, all things that punish the pass rush. And I agree, he's closer to out of the league than the HoF, but Denver is in the ultimate win now mode, which, in other words, renders that point moot.

The offense got worse as soon as he was. The notion that some blocking TE was going to come in and make things better was predicated always nonsense. The whole addition by subtraction thing was predicated on Denver fans being salty and nothing more.

he is NOT a peer to gronk. . . eifert, yes. . . and in win-now mode, the money was better spent extending chris harris, and adding players like vance walker and creepy uncle antonio. . .

and i, personally, haven't been talking about addition by subtraction. . . but you're nuanced enough to understand scheme fit, and JT wasn't worth the money in ours. . . gary and peyton are both smart enough, low ego enough to figure it out. . . maybe it's replacing a chunk of his production by running it more, maybe it's norwood or caldwell out of the slot. . . maybe we score 20% less, and give up 30% fewer points. . . or we lose because of a TE that usually plays six weeks a year, but i doubt it comes down to that. . .

[dogfish]

seriously, y'all need to stop with this julius thomas nonsense. . .


please, anybody let me know when he shows enough to even be considered as a better football player-- on the field and right now, not in theory!-- than greg olsen. . .

[MOtorboat]

seriously, y'all need to stop with this julius thomas nonsense. . .


please, anybody let me know when he shows enough to even be considered as a better football player-- on the field and right now, not in theory!-- than greg olsen. . .

When did the Broncos sign Olsen? That's a hell of a pickup right there.

[Timmy!]

Ohmurgod.....enough. Let's end this.

Are the Broncos a better offense with JT? Yuuuuuuuup.

Is JT shitty at blocking and injury prone? Yuuuuuuup.

Was.JT worth what he got on the open market vs what Denver spent that money on? Noooope.

Did Nostratimmy predict more TDs for our TEs the. Julious this year? Yuuup. (1 to nada so far bitches(

[Poet]

Well, they're both tight ends that can put up a thousand plus yards and over ten TD's, and if J.T. isn't a peer to him than he's about as close as it gets. In regards to your scheme, Kubiak's cotton candy scheme died tonight. In the second half we saw old school Manning, not bootleg ground and pound Kubiak. If Kubiak thinks his magic is going to fix that offensive line than he's insane.

I once told you that I thought John Fox was overrated, was going to end up leaving Denver in disgrace, and was too conservative to win. Well Kubiak is a proven choker, he coached the Texans out of the playoffs multiple times, has managed to cash in on beating my boys in the playoffs twice, and ultimately is nothing more than a very good coordinator. We'll see where he goes, but I'm accurate enough on coaches at it is, and if he wants to play Kubiak ball you guys are truly ******.

Good coaches find ways to incorporate the talent around them, and if J.T. was bounced becuase he didn't fit Kubiak's scheme then my point is cemented. Let me be clear, there is not a scheme in the NFL that does not use a slot receiver. One could literally put J.T.'s eggshell ass in the slot and let him go buck wild. I'm waiting to see how you guys find that production and fill it - Caldwell isn't going to do it and we both know that. Norwood? Well, I guess it's plausible, but I doubt that's going to be the case. Is the running game going to pick up and make it up? How many TD's and more yards would Anderson need?

But, it's deeper than that - it isn't always so much about how much you score (although you'll be doing that less often) as how. It isn't so much about overall productin (again less) as how you can do it, and what J.T. gave the Broncos is something that all of three or four other teams had in the league. Again, his mere presence on the field makes it harder to sack Manning. We both know that when Caldwell, Norwood, or any other receiver steps onto the field it's not the same.

As far as Olson goes, he was a middling TE in Chicago because Martz refused to change his system to incorporate a gifted receiver at the position into his plan. Olson's a stud, although I don't think he's quite the TD machine that Thomas was, and he's not quite the dynamic player either. But hold on, a coordinator not incorporating a first round talent into the offense....that sounds familiar.

What it do Kubiak?

[Poet]

Ohmurgod.....enough. Let's end this.

Are the Broncos a better offense with JT? Yuuuuuuuup.

Is JT shitty at blocking and injury prone? Yuuuuuuup.

Was.JT worth what he got on the open market vs what Denver spent that money on? Noooope.

Did Nostratimmy predict more TDs for our TEs the. Julious this year? Yuuup. (1 to nada so far bitches(

Yes, let us end a fruitful and enjoyable discussion on a message board intended to foster...

J.T.'s production would have been worth it were he in Denver..

It's pretty telling that you would have to A. be happy that the player in question is injured and B. point to multiple other players to make up that production while C. pointing out that the entire TE cache is barely outproducing a sidelined player.

:D

[Timmy!]

Yes, let us end a fruitful and enjoyable discussion on a message board intended to foster...

J.T.'s production would have been worth it were he in Denver..

It's pretty telling that you would have to A. be happy that the player in question is injured and B. point to multiple other players to make up that production while C. pointing out that the entire TE cache is barely outproducing a sidelined player.

:D

JT can't stay on the field man. Until he produces more the green/Daniels I win. *insert 3 paragraphs and emoji*

[Poet]

JT can't stay on the field man. Until he produces more the green/Daniels I win. *insert 3 paragraphs and emoji*

****, guess Gronk and Graham suck as well. Gronk's going to probably miss chunks of time as he is also big and gets hit a lot. That spinal stenosis isn't going to help any either. Graham also misses games as well. I'll be sure to email their teams and suggest that they cut those guys and pick up stalwarts like Owen Daniels.

Come on Timmy time.

[Timmy!]

I don't think you follow king, and I know your one of the smartest football minds on this board. I'm not even going to argue that JT isn't better than Daniels + Green. Its obvious that JT helps this offense. The problem is he can't stay on the field man. He has literally, in his pro career, missed 50% (or close)/of his games....and he can't block. What did he get? 9 mil a year? Show me where the Broncos are better off spending that 9 mil, right now? Names such as DT come to mind. After 16 games if Daniels/Greens production, at half the cost, is the same or better than JT, who hasn't even seen the field yet, you look silly

[MOtorboat]

Why the hell are Broncos fans so ******* obsessed with the blocking of a receiving tight end?

[Timmy!]

1-0.

[Ravage!!!]

he is NOT a peer to gronk. . . eifert, yes. . . and in win-now mode, the money was better spent extending chris harris, and adding players like vance walker and creepy uncle antonio. . .

and i, personally, haven't been talking about addition by subtraction. . . but you're nuanced enough to understand scheme fit, and JT wasn't worth the money in ours. . . gary and peyton are both smart enough, low ego enough to figure it out. . . maybe it's replacing a chunk of his production by running it more, maybe it's norwood or caldwell out of the slot. . . maybe we score 20% less, and give up 30% fewer points. . . or we lose because of a TE that usually plays six weeks a year, but i doubt it comes down to that. . .


I'd bet dollars to donuts that Peyton is missing the hell out of JT right now.

[TXBRONC]

seriously, y'all need to stop with this julius thomas nonsense. . .


please, anybody let me know when he shows enough to even be considered as a better football player-- on the field and right now, not in theory!-- than greg olsen. . .

J. Thomas is a very receiver but as pointed out anyone who says we could have used him last night is missing point that he wouldn't been available last night anyway because he's hurt.......again.

[TXBRONC]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that Peyton is missing the hell out of JT right now.

Rav J. Thomas wouldn't have even been on the field because he's hurt .

[G_Money]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that Peyton is missing the hell out of JT right now.

Agreed. I didn't want to pay Julius because he disappears when he's not 100% and he gets dinged up every year, including this one (as all players do - most just still find ways to contribute and he's not good at that). But replacing him with cardboard cutouts who can't run routes and whose blocking has been nowhere in evidence thus far this season wasn't exactly my plan either.

I'm okay with putting Latimer at "receiving TE." I want to know when Arthur Lynch can get pulled up off the practice squad. Get me ANYBODY who can get behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties to catch seam passes and open up the offense.

The TE is an important part of Manning's security net and methodology with the Broncos. Do I regret not giving JT the cash? No. Do I wish we'd have looked at better receiving options at the position? Yeah. Maybe Virgil can do something... but absolutely the lack of a big pass-catching threat in the middle of the field is a limiter.

[Ravage!!!]

Agreed. I didn't want to pay Julius because he disappears when he's not 100% and he gets dinged up every year, including this one (as all players do - most just still find ways to contribute and he's not good at that). But replacing him with cardboard cutouts who can't run routes and whose blocking has been nowhere in evidence thus far this season wasn't exactly my plan either.

I'm okay with putting Latimer at "receiving TE." I want to know when Arthur Lynch can get pulled up off the practice squad. Get me ANYBODY who can get behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties to catch seam passes and open up the offense.

The TE is an important part of Manning's security net and methodology with the Broncos. Do I regret not giving JT the cash? No. Do I wish we'd have looked at better receiving options at the position? Yeah. Maybe Virgil can do something... but absolutely the lack of a big pass-catching threat in the middle of the field is a limiter.

Its a killer. Our 3rd down conversions are just going to go down and down as the year goes (especially with our running game) as we dont have a slot OR a TE, and the TE would create more problems. I understand having to work within the cap, but I absolutely think that JT was a MUCH MUCH bigger part of this dynamic offense than people give credit too. When you can't match up with the TE, you can see what it can do to a defense in a hurry (see the big plays made by KC when they needed at the end of the game). This offense is lacking in weapons, now. It's pretty pedestrian.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav J. Thomas wouldn't have even been on the field because he's hurt .

TX, we don't know that. People around here want to say that, but the truth is, if he were in Denver then the injury to his hand, doesn't happen. It's all conjecture anyway, since he's not here, but I would bet that Manning absolutely would take JT over any TE we have on the roster in a heart beat.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Let's not forget Julius is not an every down player. It made it easier to determine when we were going to run if Julius wasn't in the game.

[Valar Morghulis]

Let's not forget Julius is not an every down player. It made it easier to determine when we were going to run if Julius wasn't in the game.

i dont see how having JT at the line of scrimmage would help our team at the minute - it is hard enough for manning to have anytime, let alone having a primadonna wannable wr letting rushers glide past him

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

i dont see how having JT at the line of scrimmage would help our team at the minute - it is hard enough for manning to have anytime, let alone having a primadonna wannable wr letting rushers glide past him

Ole!!

[ShaneFalco]

deon sanders was talking about how the broncos need a true #3 wide receiver last night.

I do think if we had a good #3 that the offense would be a lot more threatening. But i think Elway expected it to be Latimer, just hasnt panned out.

I wonder if we would ever consider bringing Wes back. Not worried about Manning at all, worried about our weapons.

[NightTerror218]

deon sanders was talking about how the broncos need a true #3 wide receiver last night.

I do think if we had a good #3 that the offense would be a lot more threatening. But i think Elway expected it to be Latimer, just hasnt panned out.

I wonder if we would ever consider bringing Wes back. Not worried about Manning at all, worried about our weapons.

His play fell off so oooooo much last season. He won't be back.

[Poet]

i dont see how having JT at the line of scrimmage would help our team at the minute - it is hard enough for manning to have anytime, let alone having a primadonna wannable wr letting rushers glide past him

The slot is a magical place.

[Valar Morghulis]

The slot is a magical place.

so why are we not using daniels or green in this area of magic or why is sanders not operating out of it (apart from the fact he is awesome and would be a #1 wr on 90% of other teams in the league)

[MOtorboat]

so why are we not using daniels or green in this area of magic or why is sanders not operating out of it (apart from the fact he is awesome and would be a #1 wr on 90% of other teams in the league)

Well, Daniels and Green aren't very good in the passing game and Emmanuel Sanders has been money on the outside for two years. Norwood gives the Broncos some hope, but past that there are zero slot options.

[Poet]

so why are we not using daniels or green in this area of magic or why is sanders not operating out of it (apart from the fact he is awesome and would be a #1 wr on 90% of other teams in the league)

Neither one of them has the physical capabilities to do much there, Sanders has been a stud in other places (as Moseph pointed out) and I'm not sure who else you have who can do much from that position.

The reality of the situation is that if your line is just decent JT's weakness at blocking is mitigated to the point of being a non-issue. Even with your bad line and him blocking he would still give you a play-action threat. I mean FFS, if JT isn't worth keeping because he can't block than it's interesting people take more issue with his lack of blocking than the rest of your offensive line.

[Valar Morghulis]

I get it, the O-Line Sucks, which, the way i understand it is why we need to have the tight ends in blocking - both in pass protection to give him time to find a WR and because our O-line cannot create running lanes on their own.

Now, i am aware that my football knowledge can fall down when it comes to the x's and o's - so i am open to learning how given the glaring weaknesses of our o-line at blocking - h JT would improve our team more than say - Welker (or similar option)

(to clarify my opinion on JT - i would liked to have kept him, but glad we did not pay what he got, that said, i dont see the strategic advantage a player like JT brings to terrible O-line play using Kubes' playbook, i believe we would be carrying him and underusing him - and over paying him lol)

[Poet]

I get it, the O-Line Sucks, which, the way i understand it is why we need to have the tight ends in blocking - both in pass protection to give him time to find a WR and because our O-line cannot create running lanes on their own.

Now, i am aware that my football knowledge can fall down when it comes to the x's and o's - so i am open to learning how given the glaring weaknesses of our o-line at blocking - h JT would improve our team more than say - Welker (or similar option)

(to clarify my opinion on JT - i would liked to have kept him, but glad we did not pay what he got, that said, i dont see the strategic advantage a player like JT brings to terrible O-line play using Kubes' playbook, i believe we would be carrying him and underusing him - and over paying him lol)

Any good/great/above average/qualifier you would like would help the pass protection as those guys run the routes and makes the plays that A. are most damaging to pass rushes that blitz and B. tend to be brutal matchups for defenses. Julius Thomas would happen to be one of the more effective players in the league for A and B in the slot.

J.T. might be worthless in a Kubiak scheme, but if Kubiak won't change the scheme then it's a moot point as your season is over. But, as bad of a coach as he is I presume he's not that bad.

[Valar Morghulis]

Any good/great/above average/qualifier you would like would help the pass protection as those guys run the routes and makes the plays that A. are most damaging to pass rushes that blitz and B. tend to be brutal matchups for defenses. Julius Thomas would happen to be one of the more effective players in the league for A and B in the slot.

J.T. might be worthless in a Kubiak scheme, but if Kubiak won't change the scheme then it's a moot point as your season is over. But, as bad of a coach as he is I presume he's not that bad.

So, by having JT run a quick slant, picking up 5/6 yds at a time, it would stop the blitzes, as they would need to stop JT????

If that is what you are saying, i can see that, but teams are loading the box, they can still sent a 3 man rush, and have either a SS or LB to get physical with JT (it is at this point i think his form shows she will not be prepared to mix it up in this situation, once again, making him a waste of a skillset

JT could be great, and has been great, but i doubt he fits with a team whose qb can not consistently threaten defense with a medium/deep ball and a team witha shit o-line that does not give the qb time to throw consistently

Again - plese refute my argument, if it is flawed

[Ravage!!!]

So, by having JT run a quick slant, picking up 5/6 yds at a time, it would stop the blitzes, as they would need to stop JT????

If that is what you are saying, i can see that, but teams are loading the box, they can still sent a 3 man rush, and have either a SS or LB to get physical with JT (it is at this point i think his form shows she will not be prepared to mix it up in this situation, once again, making him a waste of a skillset

JT could be great, and has been great, but i doubt he fits with a team whose qb can not consistently threaten defense with a medium/deep ball and a team witha shit o-line that does not give the qb time to throw consistently

Again - plese refute my argument, if it is flawed

Well, if the other team is just rushing 3, than that's manageable. What you are forgetting is that most LBs can't match up with JT, so they have to put a DB on him of some kind. That usually means that a team will have to bring in an additional DB to match up...thus having to take a LB off the field.

The DL isn't coming through so fast that they aren't slowed down. If all they had to do was "bump and slow" them down, then he wouldn't have set records for the most amount of TDs set by a TE in the first 10 games. You split him out towards the slot, giving him more options on the inside, outside, and up...that forces teams to deal with that BIG problem that they can't match up with.

[Poet]

Well, if the other team is just rushing 3, than that's manageable. What you are forgetting is that most LBs can't match up with JT, so they have to put a DB on him of some kind. That usually means that a team will have to bring in an additional DB to match up...thus having to take a LB off the field.

The DL isn't coming through so fast that they aren't slowed down. If all they had to do was "bump and slow" them down, then he wouldn't have set records for the most amount of TDs set by a TE in the first 10 games. You split him out towards the slot, giving him more options on the inside, outside, and up...that forces teams to deal with that BIG problem that they can't match up with.

The impact is even more brutal in the red zone. Remember week one where the Steelers had to line up goal line, Gronk splits out wide and a LB is on him? It was the TD that led to the strange shimmy dance that made people mad? Those same things can be done with J.T. The LB's can deal with the speed, the corners can't deal with the massive body, it's an area of the field where the refs will enforce illegal contact, etc. etc. etc.

I'll give you another example, Val. In the early part of the gamdeday thread I saw several people calling for more quick passes over the middle, but I also saw a lot of people calling for screens as it castrates a pass rush, really crushes a blitz, all that good stuff.

J.T. is capable of of those, I believe he has had success in the past on that play, and all of the stuff that we're talking about is literally just him out wide or in the slot.

[Ravage!!!]

The impact is even more brutal in the red zone. Remember week one where the Steelers had to line up goal line, Gronk splits out wide and a LB is on him?

This..exactly the opposite situation from what I mentioned. Because close to the goal line, the defense has to keep LBs in to stop the run, but the LBs can't keep up with the TE. Its just a weapon that I'll miss alllll year long.

Right now the Bengals are enjoying their TE....as I am since he's on my fantasy team!

[Poet]

This..exactly the opposite situation from what I mentioned. Because close to the goal line, the defense has to keep LBs in to stop the run, but the LBs can't keep up with the TE. Its just a weapon that I'll miss alllll year long.

Right now the Bengals are enjoying their TE....as I am since he's on my fantasy team!

They also get to run the lamest (but highly effective) route, the stupid box them out route. In a sense watching a big man take a step forward, turn, and then back that ass up on a defender is pretty well lame as it's not an exciting play, but just being big works.

The same logic goes for all the 'pick' or 'rub' plays as well.

Oh, fwiw, if and when the line gets a little better, those three step drop seam passes to the TE are just unfair. How unfair? Unfair to the point that even Andy Dalton routinely makes them. I don't think Dalton is a bad Qb, but he's not known for his great work over the middle the past season or so.

[TXBRONC]

TX, we don't know that. People around here want to say that, but the truth is, if he were in Denver then the injury to his hand, doesn't happen. It's all conjecture anyway, since he's not here, but I would bet that Manning absolutely would take JT over any TE we have on the roster in a heart beat.

Rav you don't know that either.

[Poet]

Rav you don't know that either.

That's kind of the point, though. We can discuss whether he would be on the field or not, or we can discuss what type of player he is and how that would impact the Broncos' offense.

[Northman]

That's kind of the point, though. We can discuss whether he would be on the field or not, or we can discuss what type of player he is and how that would impact the Broncos' offense.

No one has said he isnt a impact player though, only that he has short comings in other areas (blocking) and has a hard time staying healthy. You simply dont overpay for a player like that.

[Poet]

No one has said he isnt a impact player though, only that he has short comings in other areas (blocking) and has a hard time staying healthy. You simply dont overpay for a player like that.

North, there are plenty of posters in this thread that have downplayed his impact. Some have done it blatantly, while others have done it through language approximately along the lines of 'well we'll just block better and it'll average out' when A. there's no indication of that and B. it's unlikely given the production that J.T. has.

His lack of blocking in the context of this season is marginally important, as referenced earlier, is only a real matter of discussion because of how bad the offensive line is, and still doesn't make up for what he does on the field - define defenses, slow a pass rush (something the line can't do which is further mitigation of the complaints about his blocking) and brutality in the red zone. Gronk, Graham, Gates, Tony Gonzalez, all great players, all probably headed to the hall (Graham is the least likely right now but still has a good shot at it) who have missed plenty of games due to injury. Whether you're blocking as a tight end or going over the middle, the abuse one takes is quite real.

Regardless, the points have been hashed out, the conversation was fruitful and fun. :D

[TXBRONC]

No one has said he isnt a impact player though, only that he has short comings in other areas (blocking) and has a hard time staying healthy. You simply dont overpay for a player like that.

I love the guy's recieving skills but in an offense that is trying to establish the run how much help is he going to be?

[Northman]

I love the guy's recieving skills but in an offense that is trying to establish the run how much help is he going to be?

Well, King makes some good points that a guy like JT could be a distraction to the pass rush but eventually you will need that guy to be a good blocker, Gronk is a great blocker and a great receiver. Its why is so valuable to the Patriots. But the other concern is his injury history, its just not good business to overpay a guy who has trouble staying on the field. This was a big reason why Baltimore could not keep a guy like Todd Heap ultimately. Sooner or later you have to realize that no matter how much of a weapon that guy can be if he cant stay healthy and is missing large amounts of time you cant keep shoveling out money into that player. Like i said before, Denver offered JT fair money because of the work that he still needed to do with blocking and his injury concerns. But JT wanted his payday and thats fair but its no surprise that the team that ended up overpaying him was one of the worst teams in the league. They have the cap room to do something like that, Denver did not.

[Poet]

TX, I think he'd be a great fit in just about any contemporary offense. Truth be told, I believe that J.T. would still be an asset to Denver now because he's just you're huge slot guy.

North, I feel the notion about not paying guys who can't stay on the field. It's a fair point, but sometimes you gotta bite that bullet, imo.

[TXBRONC]

TX, I think he'd be a great fit in just about any contemporary offense. Truth be told, I believe that J.T. would still be an asset to Denver now because he's just you're huge slot guy.

North, I feel the notion about not paying guys who can't stay on the field. It's a fair point, but sometimes you gotta bite that bullet, imo.

I agree he would still be a asset but that would be offset by his weakness in blocking.

[BroncoJoe]

NEWSFLASH: Julius Thomas is not only not a Bronco player anymore, he's not on the field either.

Let it go - he's gone.

[CoachChaz]

NEWSFLASH: Julius Thomas is not only not a Bronco player anymore, he's not on the field either.

Let it go - he's gone.

Amen!!!

[GEM]

TX, I think he'd be a great fit in just about any contemporary offense. Truth be told, I believe that J.T. would still be an asset to Denver now because he's just you're huge slot guy.

North, I feel the notion about not paying guys who can't stay on the field. It's a fair point, but sometimes you gotta bite that bullet, imo.

Can't bite that bullet when you have DT, Von and numerous other players up for big contracts. They weighed who they thought is worth those contracts and JT just wasn't high on the list.

[TXBRONC]

Can't bite that bullet when you have DT, Von and numerous other players up for big contracts. They weighed who they thought is worth those contracts and JT just wasn't high on the list.

I wouldn't be surprised if MO gives me hard time about it but in this day and age you just can't pay every star player big bucks. If Elway had paid J.Thomas what he wanted it wouldn't have been possible to re-sign D. Thomas. D. Thomas far and way the more important player to re-sign. Denver doesn't need the tight end to score double digit touchdowns to put up points and win games. Denver indeed needs it's tight ends to be better but they don't need them to be J. Thomas in receiving game.

[MOtorboat]

I wouldn't be surprised if MO gives me hard time about it but in this day and age you just can't pay every star player big bucks. If Elway had paid J.Thomas what he wanted it wouldn't have been possible to re-sign D. Thomas. D. Thomas far and way the more important player to re-sign. Denver doesn't need the tight end to score double digit touchdowns to put up points and win games. Denver indeed needs it's tight ends to be better but they don't need them to be J. Thomas in receiving game.

Green and Daniels' salaries equal Thomas' salary, so this is just false.

[TXBRONC]

Green and Daniels' salaries equal Thomas' salary, so this is just false.

No it isn't false. What you're doing is dishonest. You have to combine their salaries to make your point. Either one of them individually do not make as much Thomas does. Also I bet dollars to donuts that neither one of them is getting the same kind of guaranteed money J. Thomas is getting.

[MOtorboat]

No it isn't false. What you're doing is dishonest. You have to combine their salaries to make your point. Either one of them individually do not make as much Thomas does. Also I bet dollars to donuts that neither one of them is getting the same kind of guaranteed money J. Thomas is getting.

They should have signed Thomas, instead they chose to sign two lesser items for the same price as one good one. That's not a dishonest argument at all.

[Poet]

Can't bite that bullet when you have DT, Von and numerous other players up for big contracts. They weighed who they thought is worth those contracts and JT just wasn't high on the list.

We know that Denver could have signed J.T. from a fiscal point. His signing would not have stopped D.T. from getting paid.

[Valar Morghulis]

green gets 1.3 mil a year http://www.celebritiesmoney.com/virgil-green-salary-net-worth-te-of-denver-broncos-nfl-team/
daniels gets about 3 million http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/owen-daniels/

so unless JT is only clearing about 4 mil in Jax - i am not sure your agrument stands up

just checked - he is on double that http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/julius-thomas/

[Valar Morghulis]

also - one of the biggest loses last year to denver was when virgil Green got injured - i thought that loss affected us more that losing JT

[GEM]

We know that Denver could have signed J.T. from a fiscal point. His signing would not have stopped D.T. from getting paid.

Could have...but should have is the issue. Do you pay top dollar for a player with no heart to be on the field and a glass vagina? Not only thinking of what they had in front of them this past offseason, but what they have on the horizon...signing Von is not going to be cheap, especially now with a clearance off the drug program and performing like an effing madman. Yes, we miss Julius, but we can recover from his loss. You just don't overpay a player with the issues Julius has. No amount of money can make up for no heart.

[Poet]

Could have...but should have is the issue. Do you pay top dollar for a player with no heart to be on the field and a glass vagina? Not only thinking of what they had in front of them this past offseason, but what they have on the horizon...signing Von is not going to be cheap, especially now with a clearance off the drug program and performing like an effing madman. Yes, we miss Julius, but we can recover from his loss. You just don't overpay a player with the issues Julius has. No amount of money can make up for no heart.

I have long heard of all of these soft heartless football players. I have found many of them in the Hall of Fame and or on pro bowl and all-pro lists. He's a finesse player in a finesse league. But him being a finesse player stops Manning from getting his brains beaten in.

Denver doesn't want to put Sanders in the slot because they don't want his brains getting knocked around in his skull. Sanders used to be Mr. Slot, although he's still working wonders on the outside. The point that I'm making is that by signing a soft guy you keep your other skill players standing. And if I can figure that out, the Broncos should have figured that out.

[Timmy!]

Irony: Mo hates Tebois, but is president of the glass vag TE fan club.

[Poet]

What a horribly inaccurate yet mildly amusing comparison.

[Valar Morghulis]

A glass vagina is dangerous.

I don't want no part of that.

[Timmy!]

What a horribly inaccurate yet mildly amusing comparison.

Tebow....horribly inaccurate. Mo......mildly amusing. I see what you did there.

[Poet]

I recall certain parts of Gates' career he was called soft. Vernon Davis was called soft. FFS, Cincy fans, some of them, dislike Eifert because he's not much of a blocker (right now he's playing like an all-pro) and ******* Tony Gonzalez was called soft for ******* YEARS!

[TXBRONC]

They should have signed Thomas, instead they chose to sign two lesser items for the same price as one good one. That's not a dishonest argument at all.

It is my friend because you know J. Thomas is getting way more guaranteed money than either Daniels or Green are getting. In respect to receiving I agree neither Daniels or Green are as good J. Thomas but he can't block a wet paper sack in offensive scheme requires him too. He also has missed significant time every season he's played in.

This may be a clique but it is also true: "A player's best ability is his availability." Right now he would be worth a plug nickel sitting on the sideline with an injured hand.

[GEM]

King, buddy, settle down. We don't always have to agree. ;) Would it be nice to still have Julius, well yea, duh! It didn't work out, I'm ok with that.

[Poet]

King, buddy, settle down. We don't always have to agree. ;) Would it be nice to still have Julius, well yea, duh! It didn't work out, I'm ok with that.

Listen, we don't have to agree, but I have to kill time today. And god dammit, after having spent enough time last night at school, as well as my internship, the only thing I really want to do is eat dinner and argue with someone.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I have long heard of all of these soft heartless football players. I have found many of them in the Hall of Fame and or on pro bowl and all-pro lists. He's a finesse player in a finesse league. But him being a finesse player stops Manning from getting his brains beaten in.

Denver doesn't want to put Sanders in the slot because they don't want his brains getting knocked around in his skull. Sanders used to be Mr. Slot, although he's still working wonders on the outside. The point that I'm making is that by signing a soft guy you keep your other skill players standing. And if I can figure that out, the Broncos should have figured that out.

That's not true. Sanders isn't in the slot because Latimer hasn't developed into the #2 they hoped he would.

JT was great against soft coverage, but when physical safeties and lb's bared down on him he disappeared.

[GEM]

Listen, we don't have to agree, but I have to kill time today. And god dammit, after having spent enough time last night at school, as well as my internship, the only thing I really want to do is eat dinner and argue with someone.

Well arguing over Julius Thomas and his glass vagina is never rewarding. Get some jello and make a wrestling ring. ;) Much funner!

[Valar Morghulis]

Well arguing over Julius Thomas and his glass vagina is never rewarding. Get some jello and make a wrestling ring. ;) Much funner!

If this could be arranged for next weekend, I would be much obliged

[Northman]

Well arguing over Julius Thomas and his glass vagina is never rewarding. Get some jello and make a wrestling ring. ;) Much funner!

You and me babe, lets make this happen. We both can go topless and be in G strings.

[Valar Morghulis]

You and me babe, lets make this happen. We both can go topless and be in G strings.

Please refer to my comment above, but now with extra desire to see it.

[GEM]

:laugh: Like the kissing booth, but a jello ring instead. Step right up, pay a couple bucks and wrestle in jello. :lol:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I recall certain parts of Gates' career he was called soft. Vernon Davis was called soft. FFS, Cincy fans, some of them, dislike Eifert because he's not much of a blocker (right now he's playing like an all-pro) and ******* Tony Gonzalez was called soft for ******* YEARS!

Gates and Gonzalez, seriously?

They might not have been elite blockers, but at least demonstrated a willingness to do it. Both of them are considered very well rounded 3 down players.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

King, are you stirring the pot? I'm confused about why you actually give a crap about JT.

[Poet]

King, are you stirring the pot? I'm confused about why you actually give a crap about JT.

I love talking about football and hate bad arguments.


Gates was an awful blocker and called soft for years. Ironically I know this be true as I witnessed it...on this ******* site...

[ShaneFalco]

you guys see the broncos signed arthur lynch?

[CrazyHorse]

Virgil Green needs to start. He absolutely must. He's actually more athletic than Julius Thomas.

[Joel]

Virgil Green needs to start. He absolutely must. He's actually more athletic than Julius Thomas.
Was a bit surprised when Collinsworth said Green posted a faster Combine 40 than JT. And he blocks SO much better he had to fight to get passes because of... yeah, really wish we'd paid JT his $8 mil/yr to sit on the bench in street clothes WATCHING the game.

[Ravage!!!]

Green may have run a better 40, but his game speed isn't even NEAR JT's. He's certainly not more athletic. Green isn't even mentioned in the same sentence as far as being a threat to the defense. Our third down conversions are horrendous, and our TEs are basically invisible.... and easily covered by any LB. We absolutely are missing JT.

[silkamilkamonico]

Julius Thomas is wide receiver. Let's not even kid ourselves here. And give Green an opportunity. Owen Daniels is done.

[Joel]

Julius Thomas is wide receiver. Let's not even kid ourselves here. And give Green an opportunity. Owen Daniels is done.
Trouble is, JT's not a great WR either; he can beat LBs and safeties to jump balls, but runs ragged routes and blows assignments because he only had a year of football before he went pro and has missed half of each pro season. He plays pickup football; he plays it really really well, but this is the NFL. Also, I'm not missing anyone sitting on the bench in street clothes WATCHING the game, especially not for $8 mil/yr. Again, not only is JT a better WR than TE, DT's better at BOTH: HE actually run blocks his man. And the choice was clearly between one or the other: Elway made the right call.

Bottom line is that if TEs were WRs we'd call them WRs. I agree with those saying Daniels is disappointing though; Manning ate a HUGE sack that pinned us inside our 10 tonight because he whiffed a block (the one where they came back with the deep pass to Sanders a yard short of the marker that was reversed because he lost his grip for a split second after he slid out of bounds; thank heaven Colquitts punt had a NICE roll down near Detroits 20.) Virgil Green FTW going forward.

[ShaneFalco]

green had a faster 40 at the combine then jt.

[Joel]

green had a faster 40 at the combine then jt.
Yeah, Collinsworth said that during the game, and I cited it here, which was what prompted Ravs response: Try to keep up, Falco Julius. :tongue:

[SR]

green had a faster 40 at the combine then jt.

That was established about a half dozen posts ago.

[TXBRONC]

Virgil Green needs to start. He absolutely must. He's actually more athletic than Julius Thomas.

I wish he would get more opportunities in the passing game but a knock him in the past has been his route running.

[Joel]

I wish he would get more opportunities in the passing game but a knock him in the past has been his route running.
Yet that joins blocking as another thing he does better than Orange Julius.

$8 mil/yr for a "TE" who can't block to save his life, may or may not be where the QB told him to be and misses half of every season: Good luck, Jax.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Virgil might not be as explosive as JT, but he looked pretty good on that catch and run down the sideline.

[BroncoJoe]

Virgil might not be as explosive as JT, but he looked pretty good on that catch and run down the sideline.

JT would have either been tackled, or ran out of bounds.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

JT would have either been tackled, or ran out of bounds.

That's a possibility. ...or not been on the field at all. :D

[TXBRONC]

Virgil might not be as explosive as JT, but he looked pretty good on that catch and run down the sideline.

He sure did. He fought hard for extra yards on that catch. I hope this he'll start being incorporated more into the passing game.

[NightTerror218]

Glad to see him get ball thrown at him, not the best ha do but he made a great play.

[dogfish]

We absolutely are missing JT.

the team that's paying him this year is missing him even more. . .

[Poet]

the team that's paying him this year is missing him even more. . .

Ah, the assumption that he would be injured if he were a Bronco. Hey, Dog, if Jamaal Charles was a Bronco I bet he'd be injured. Oh, I bet that if Julio Jones were a Bronco he'd be injured, too. :D

[Joel]

Ah, the assumption that he would be injured if he were a Bronco. Hey, Dog, if Jamaal Charles was a Bronco I bet he'd be injured. Oh, I bet that if Julio Jones were a Bronco he'd be injured, too. :D

There's a BIT more to it, so it's no assumption: Julius Thomas has sat out hurt roughly HALF HIS "CAREER," and that's an ACTIVE streak: 36 games played out of 67 (and counting.) Remember, taht's just games where he limped around for a quarter, then left; he only has 25 STARTS in 67 games: Barely a THIRD. So there's good reason to believe he'd be making millions to WATCH teammates play while he sat on the bench in streetclothes WHEREVER he signed: That's kinda JTs thing. ;)

That, whiffing blocks the few blocks he even PRETENDS to attempt and running ragged routes wherever the Hell he feels, while his QBs timing pass goes where he's SUPPOSED to be. I'll stick with Virgil. :)

[Poet]

There's a BIT more to it, so it's no assumption: Julius Thomas has sat out hurt roughly HALF HIS "CAREER," and that's an ACTIVE streak: 36 games played out of 67 (and counting.) Remember, taht's just games where he limped around for a quarter, then left; he only has 25 STARTS in 67 games: Barely a THIRD. So there's good reason to believe he'd be making millions to WATCH teammates play while he sat on the bench in streetclothes WHEREVER he signed: That's kinda JTs thing. ;)

That, whiffing blocks the few blocks he even PRETENDS to attempt and running ragged routes wherever the Hell he feels, while his QBs timing pass goes where he's SUPPOSED to be. I'll stick with Virgil. :)

But the problem is that before J.T. left, and before the Cincinnati game, no one seemed to care, nor was he soft, or easily replaced. I'm not sure I'd agree with his routes being "ragged," either.

[Slick]

But the problem is that before J.T. left, and before the Cincinnati game, no one seemed to care, nor was he soft, or easily replaced. I'm not sure I'd agree with his routes being "ragged," either.

You got styled on.

[Poet]

You got styled on.

God no, Slick. The judgment of J.T. stems out of an emotional narrative. And let's be honest, when you're as awesome and routinely correct as me, the little people want to see you fail. I'm like Tom Brady, except I don't cheat.

[Joel]

But the problem is that before J.T. left, and before the Cincinnati game, no one seemed to care, nor was he soft, or easily replaced. I'm not sure I'd agree with his routes being "ragged," either.
I concede I've not watched him enough in games ('cause, y'know, he's gotta be IN games first) to know where he is now, but it was pretty bad prior to last year. Enough so he took it upon himself to spend a lot of offseason time working on it; since he missed the last half of the season, I'm not sure how much that paid off for him.

Again, I can't speak for others, but I'VE always cared, because TE=big slow WR. Remember, you're talking to a guy who's been demanding a run game and complaining about nonexistent line surge nonstop for over a decade. There's a search function; google my 2013 posts with the key words "Orange Julius" etc. and see for yourself.

Main thing I recall about JTs breakout year was that, on his FIRST CAREER TD, Suggs (IIRC) drilled Manning full on in the ribs and planted him hard (not that was on JT; I believe Ramirez whiffed that block, and it WAS a whiff.) Last year it was "is our line so bad we need 3 OTs to get a first down?" but in 2013 it was all about 2TE sets and max protect for Manning, yet everyone insisted the line was fine. Julius Thomas REALLY sucks for 2TE max protect, and I lobbied hard for Dreessen most of the year, hence I was so happy when we benched JT after Mannings 3rd strip-sack in as many games, and all Dreessen did was convert BOTH 4th downs on a single drive, the second in the end zone.

My opinion of JT's no more solely based on one Bengals game than my opinion of Kubiak's solely based on TWO Bengals games: There's pretty much only one poster on this site fixated on the Bengals, and we all know who. ;) That said, they WERE my 2013 preseason pick to win the AFCN as Pitt and the Ravens collapsed, though my subjective selective recollection is that was an unpopular view around here.

[Slick]

God no, Slick. The judgment of J.T. stems out of an emotional narrative. And let's be honest, when you're as awesome and routinely correct as me, the little people want to see you fail. I'm like Tom Brady, except I don't cheat.

Are you calling me a little person and are you denying JT's injury history?

[Poet]

I concede I've not watched him enough in games ('cause, y'know, he's gotta be IN games first) to know where he is now, but it was pretty bad prior to last year. Enough so he took it upon himself to spend a lot of offseason time working on it; since he missed the last half of the season, I'm not sure how much that paid off for him.

Again, I can't speak for others, but I'VE always cared, because TE=big slow WR. Remember, you're talking to a guy who's been demanding a run game and complaining about nonexistent line surge nonstop for over a decade. There's a search function; google my 2013 posts with the key words "Orange Julius" etc. and see for yourself.

Main thing I recall about JTs breakout year was that, on his FIRST CAREER TD, Suggs (IIRC) drilled Manning full on in the ribs and planted him hard (not that was on JT; I believe Ramirez whiffed that block, and it WAS a whiff.) Last year it was "is our line so bad we need 3 OTs to get a first down?" but in 2013 it was all about 2TE sets and max protect for Manning, yet everyone insisted the line was fine. Julius Thomas REALLY sucks for 2TE max protect, and I lobbied hard for Dreessen most of the year, hence I was so happy when we benched JT after Mannings 3rd strip-sack in as many games, and all Dreessen did was convert BOTH 4th downs on a single drive, the second in the end zone.

My opinion of JT's no more solely based on one Bengals game than my opinion of Kubiak's solely based on TWO Bengals games: There's pretty much only one poster on this site fixated on the Bengals, and we all know who that is. ;) That said, they WERE my 2013 preseason pick to win the AFCN as Pitt and the Ravens collapsed, though my subjective selective recollection is that was an unpopular view around here.

I chuckled at that first sentence. That was good.

While your stance might be more lasting than others, the point stands my man. Especially since were J.T. to be on the field a lot of the protection issues and stacked boxes are mitigated. That's the problem I have with people who bash his blocking - it's tertiary, he lessens pressure just by being on the field, and it's a non-issue for most playoff teams.

And believe me, it's only fitting, and convenient really, that the Bengals game started the snowball of J.T. hatred.

[Poet]

Are you calling me a little person and are you denying JT's injury history?

When setup's payoff it's beautiful.

Compared to me, you are a little man, and JT's injury history exists, but it's absurd to assume he would be injured in Denver.

[Slick]

When setup's payoff it's beautiful.

Compared to me, you are a little man, and JT's injury history exists, but it's absurd to assume he would be injured in Denver.

I think his injury history factored in to Elway's decision. That, and having to trot Green out there last year to run block. Anyone who thinks he didn't make this offense better is fooling themselves. He is definitely missed.

I think Elway was counting on Lattimer to be able to run some of the routes JT ran and be that player that opened up the middle of the field. That plan seems to have not worked out too well.

[Joel]

I chuckled at that first sentence. That was good.

While your stance might be more lasting than others, the point stands my man. Especially since were J.T. to be on the field a lot of the protection issues and stacked boxes are mitigated. That's the problem I have with people who bash his blocking - it's tertiary, he lessens pressure just by being on the field, and it's a non-issue for most playoff teams.

Except the ONLY time he played an (almost) full season he DIDN'T mitigate protection issues: They got so bad we BENCHED him midgame for one of Kubiaks old, slow mediocre receiving TEs, who laid out blitzers the rest of the game, converted a pair of 4th downs and scored the TD that put us back in the game. Sure—if his atrocious blocking hadn't prevented us getting there in the first place. I think I actually called it "atrocious" in the Gameday thread, but maybe it was "awful;" something starting with "a" anyway.


And believe me, it's only fitting, and convenient really, that the Bengals game started the snowball of J.T. hatred.
So bad even the BENGALS can beat him.... ;)

[Poet]

Except the ONLY time he played an (almost) full season he DIDN'T mitigate protection issues: They got so bad we BENCHED him midgame for one of Kubiaks old, slow mediocre receiving TEs, who laid out blitzers the rest of the game, converted a pair of 4th downs and scored the TD that put us back in the game. Sure—if his atrocious blocking hadn't prevented us getting there in the first place. I think I actually called it "atrocious" in the Gameday thread, but maybe it was "awful;" something starting with "a" anyway.


So bad even the BENGALS can beat him.... ;)

I'll repost it again for posterity my friend - When he's on the field, especially in the slot, he changes what a defense can do in terms of pressure. For instance, if he's in the slot, being a huge threat for TE screens, and small to mid-range routes, it makes blitzing that much worse. Especially when you have a QB who can get rid of the ball. Now the problem lies in the fact that him in the slot doens't do much to stop a basic defensive line, and let's be honest, if your line can't do that, especially when it's not an all-world defensive line, you're simply complaining to the wrong guy. A better solution, and a much more obvious one at that, is to leave him in the slot while pulling out your dime a dozen blocking TE in that same formation.

Now let's be fair, Cincinnati's secondary beats the dog shit out of a lot of players. Iloka almost killed Jimmy Graham, Maualuga knocked Gates out of the game, Reggie Nelson broke Bell. We hit hard. All we did was have our beastly CB take the ball from a tight end. :D

[Simple Jaded]

Ya know the best part of it all? So far the Broncos other TE's can't block worth a shit either, that's really gotta piss of the Broncos fans that wanted to keep JT.

[Joel]

I'll repost it again for posterity my friend - When he's on the field, especially in the slot, he changes what a defense can do in terms of pressure. For instance, if he's in the slot, being a huge threat for TE screens, and small to mid-range routes, it makes blitzing that much worse. Especially when you have a QB who can get rid of the ball. Now the problem lies in the fact that him in the slot doens't do much to stop a basic defensive line, and let's be honest, if your line can't do that, especially when it's not an all-world defensive line, you're simply complaining to the wrong guy. A better solution, and a much more obvious one at that, is to leave him in the slot while pulling out your dime a dozen blocking TE in that same formation.

Tried that; ran 2-TE sets much of 2013: Didn't help till we benched JT for Dreessen. Though you make a fair point that if 5 can't block 4, the TE's not really the problem, just failing to provide its solution. Doesn't change the fact he's not (technically) a WR, whatever he wanted to be when he went out for football as a college senior and the coach told him, "no, you're playing TE." Whether or not they should've been needed, our other (i.e. ACTUAL) TEs got the blocking job done, for both Moreno and Manning. For a fraction what JT demanded.

Only way keeping JT made sense was if we 1) could afford him AND DT (which we definitely couldn't) and 2) made him a true WR and moved DT to TE as a big and much better run blocker. Trouble is, DT's not just better at one but BOTH jobs, because he runs much crisper routes and has so much fight in him he set a SB receptions record playing 3 qtrs with a separated shoulder when we got blown out from the kickoff. And thank heaven he did, because if he doesn't catch at TD at the end of the 3rd we surrender the first EVER SB SHUTOUT. :( Orange Julius had 4 catches for 27 yds.


Now let's be fair, Cincinnati's secondary beats the dog shit out of a lot of players. Iloka almost killed Jimmy Graham, Maualuga knocked Gates out of the game, Reggie Nelson broke Bell. We hit hard. All we did was have our beastly CB take the ball from a tight end. :D
Alledged TE, counsellor. ;)

[Joel]

Ya know the best part of it all? So far the Broncos other TE's can't block worth a shit either, that's really gotta piss of the Broncos fans that wanted to keep JT.

Seems to have done, yeah, and I can't blame 'em since Green was a pretty good blocker till this year and Daniels is a former Pro Bowler. Just another argument our ZBS transition remains a work in progress: Not only do we only have TWO guys who've done it before, but even THEY look like crap right now.

[Poet]

Tried that; ran 2-TE sets much of 2013: Didn't help till we benched JT for Dreessen. Though you make a fair point that if 5 can't block 4, the TE's not really the problem, just failing to provide its solution. Doesn't change the fact he's not (technically) a WR, whatever he wanted to be when he went out for football as a college senior and the coach told him, "no, you're playing TE." Whether or not they should've been needed, our other (i.e. ACTUAL) TEs got the blocking job done, for both Moreno and Manning. For a fraction what JT demanded.

Only way keeping JT made sense was if we 1) could afford him AND DT (which we definitely couldn't) and 2) made him a true WR and moved DT to TE as a big and much better run blocker. Trouble is, DT's not just better at one but BOTH jobs, because he runs much crisper routes and has so much fight in him he set a SB receptions record playing 3 qtrs with a separated shoulder when we got blown out from the kickoff. And thank heaven he did, because if he doesn't catch at TD at the end of the 3rd we surrender the first EVER SB SHUTOUT. :( Orange Julius had 4 catches for 27 yds.


Alledged TE, counsellor. ;)

When Jimmy Graham went up for a new contract a big to-do was made about how he would be paid. The league knew, the fans as well, that he was for all intents and purposes a WR, regardless of where he lined up. He was represented by the player's union, as he should have been, and they ended up giving him a hybrid contract in terms of pay. What's the point of this interesting factoid? That we are seeing more and more TE's move towards that type of style. So, when you say it's libel against tight ends, you are almost right, as it's libel against sort of tight ends who are much more valuable as players. :D

[Poet]

Daniels made the Pro Bowl in years where the AFC was weak on impactful stars at the TE position. He made it the same way that Jermaine Gresham made it. Good blocker, more than adequate receiver, but not a gamebreaker. Or, to quote another poster on this site, Brick Smash.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd love to have him back for about $5-7 million per...10? No thanks.

[Slick]

I'd love to have him back for about $5-7 million per...10? No thanks.

Yeah, 5 years and 46 million? Not so much.

[Joel]

When Jimmy Graham went up for a new contract a big to-do was made about how he would be paid. The league knew, the fans as well, that he was for all intents and purposes a WR, regardless of where he lined up. He was represented by the player's union, as he should have been, and they ended up giving him a hybrid contract in terms of pay. What's the point of this interesting factoid? That we are seeing more and more TE's move towards that type of style. So, when you say it's libel against tight ends, you are almost right, as it's libel against sort of tight ends who are much more valuable as players. :D

If teams want to play 'em and pay 'em like #2 WRs or big slot possession WRs, fine, but get an ACTUAL TE out there for run blocking and max protect. At a certain point it becomes semantics, but the very fact there ARE so many ex-basketball players turning their ability to post up and rebound into NFL "TE" spots just shows there's far less of a premium than in the days of Gates and Hernandez. Both of whom are FAR better blockers than JT. Gronk, Vernon Davis and Witten are all excellent blockers AND receivers, and if JT played like them he'd be worth what he demanded.

I blanked on Wittens name just now, btw, and had to google; first two links:

Dallas Cowboys TE Jason Witten says he feels good after playing through 3 injuries Sunday (https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFUQqQIwA2oVChMIg77lgJmbyAIVBg0sCh2rGA3V&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dallasnews.com%2Fsports%2Fdal las-cowboys%2F20150927-dallas-cowboys-te-jason-witten-says-he-feels-good-after-playing-through-3-injuries-sunday.ece&usg=AFQjCNGQpwuPZ8oV0_NPkQbOktoXulaHYg&sig2=xmX5dEXloql7ydKDdEFFEw)

From crutches to playing in six days for Jason Witten (https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQqQIwAWoVChMIzPiG5ZibyAIVQRIsCh0ZTQ4v&url=http%3A%2F%2Fespn.go.com%2Fblog%2Fdallas-cowboys%2Fpost%2F_%2Fid%2F4745629%2Ffrom-crutches-to-playing-in-six-days-for-cowboys-jason-witten&usg=AFQjCNEibDa_FGb3YqRj8H_tfF44x_69MA&sig2=OtwkkHb5K3ZfBR4LRSx_Hg)

THAT is a TE, one of the best ever: And making ~$2 million LESS than JT this season.


Daniels made the Pro Bowl in years where the AFC was weak on impactful stars at the TE position. He made it the same way that Jermaine Gresham made it. Good blocker, more than adequate receiver, but not a gamebreaker. Or, to quote another poster on this site, Brick Smash.

"Good blocker, more than adequate receiver:" You just defined the TE position. Not "pitiful blocker the few times willing to impersonate one, great hands and speed at getting wherever he feels like running, unable to fight for balls against CBs he outweighs 30+ lbs. or slow LBs his own size, misses half of every season hurt." Virgil Green and Daniels are EACH better TEs, and we got BOTH for a little over HALF of what JT's earning to watch games in Jacksonville. At least Beadles is on the field earning the $5 million the Jags are paying HIM just because Manning got him to a Pro Bowl.

These are examples of why we've won our division every year since Elways return and Jax has... not.... I'm almost willing to say the bare fact THEY gave JT what he wanted PROVES that was stupid.

[MOtorboat]

The problem was the offensive line, not the tight end.

[Joel]

The problem was the offensive line, not the tight end.
True, though it sure was hard convincing most people of that then. BUT but TEs are supposed to be able to help with that: It's in their JOB DESCRIPTION, even if it shouldn't be necessary for pass protection. ALL our other TEs managed it; Tamme was a subpar blocker, but not terrible, and worlds better than JT. Tight ends aren't just track stars on steroids and lined up inside; again, if we want to play him and pay him like a #2 WR or big slot man, fine, but let's not pretend that's a "TE," or that we don't still need someone who IS. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin125047.html

[Poet]

The problem is, though, that at their best, neither Gresham or Daniels were as impactful as J.T. That's the issue, what a tight end is, at the top end, is not the same thing as yesteryear. Ironically, Davis was a horrible blocker when he first came into the league, so you'd probably have hated him for quite some time. Also, Witten is one of the best ever, but that's not an argument against J.T. At one point there were a few QB's making more money than Aaron Rodgers, yet it wasn't their fault that the system perpetuates growth, it's a mini version of capitalism in that sense.

This also implies J.T. never played through any injuries (if we are to believe a different post in this thread, that's false) and the fact that he's not as good as Witten, who should be in the Hall is also far from persuasive.

Oh, and Vernon Davis is an erratic player in terms of production. :D

[Slick]

Remember when Rick Pitino said, Larry Bird isn't walking through that door?

[Poet]

Remember when Rick Pitino said, Larry Bird isn't walking through that door?

J.T. isn't coming back, but it's a fun discussion. I don't understand why people, and I'm not trying to diss you, use that sentiment on a friggen message board.

Let's say for sake of argument that for the rest of the season Joel, Mo, a few other posters, and **** it, I still want to, post on the subject. Along the way we might discuss the history of the tight end position and things like that. What does it matter, and whom exactly is harmed?

I rebuke you.

[Slick]

J.T. isn't coming back, but it's a fun discussion. I don't understand why people, and I'm not trying to diss you, use that sentiment on a friggen message board.

Let's say for sake of argument that for the rest of the season Joel, Mo, a few other posters, and **** it, I still want to, post on the subject. Along the way we might discuss the history of the tight end position and things like that. What does it matter, and whom exactly is harmed?

I rebuke you.

I didn't say you couldn't talk about it, or that Mo couldn't pine away for JT. Knock yourselves out.

[Poet]

I didn't say you couldn't talk about it, or that Mo couldn't pine away for JT. Knock yourselves out.

Go away. Shoo.

[MOtorboat]

Sure was hard convincing most people of that at the time, but true. BUT but TEs are supposed to be able to help with that: It's in their JOB DESCRIPTION, even if it shouldn't be necessary for pass protection. ALL our other TEs managed it; Tamme was a subpar blocker, but not terrible, and worlds better than JT. Tight ends aren't just track stars on steroids and lined up inside; again, if we want to play him and pay him like a #2 WR or big slot man, fine, but let's not pretend that's a "TE," or that we don't still need someone who IS. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin125047.html

I do not give one shit about how tight ends block.

[Slick]

Go away. Shoo.

Yeah. Have fun guys. Denver sucks at TE this year.

[Poet]

yeah. Have fun guys. Denver sucks at te this year.

shoo

[Joel]

The problem is, though, that at their best, neither Gresham or Daniels were as impactful as J.T. That's the issue, what a tight end is, at the top end, is not the same thing as yesteryear. Ironically, Davis was a horrible blocker when he first came into the league, so you'd probably have hated him for quite some time. Also, Witten is one of the best ever, but that's not an argument against J.T. At one point there were a few QB's making more money than Aaron Rodgers, yet it wasn't their fault that the system perpetuates growth, it's a mini version of capitalism in that sense.

This also implies J.T. never played through any injuries (if we are to believe a different post in this thread, that's false) and the fact that he's not as good as Witten, who should be in the Hall is also far from persuasive.

Oh, and Vernon Davis is an erratic player in terms of production. :D

No, the issue is how we define "impactful," because right now (and then) I'd MUCH rather have a TE who could reliably BLOCK FBs and safeties to spring Anderson for 4-5 yds AND periodically BEAT them for 5-10 over the middle or in the flat than a possession receiver who still leaves ALL the pressure on Manning to get him and everyone else the ball. We've got a pair of elite WRs (and, based on Fowlers last game, maybe another on the way.) What we SORELY lack, and have for at least half a DECADE, are solid run blockers, and it's killing our QB and costing us playoff games, even championships.

I don't know if JT ever played through injuries, but if so that just proves him MORE injury prone: Even playing hurt he's lost HALF HIS CAREER to injury. That adds up; if it KEEPS up it will END his career.

I get the whole "Sharpe was a horrible blocker his first few years, Gates, Hernandez, Davis, etc." They all got better because 1) it was their JOB and 2) they CARED enough to IMPROVE unacceptable parts of their job performance, not categorically refuse and justify it by pointing to the other parts of their job they did very well.

"Son, we need to talk about how you're packing the groceries."

"Yeah, boss, did you see me load that one customers stuff into five bags in 30 seconds? :)"

"Uh huh... I saw her eggs and peaches oozing out from underneath her detergent, too, and you need to work on that."

"Nah, I'm just gonna load the next one up in TWENTY seconds 'cause it's SO :censored: EASY111"

"Right... listen, my brother-in-law runs a car wash; have you ever thought about washing cars...?"

#Can'tBlocktheSunoutofHisEyes

[Joel]

I do not give one shit about how tight ends block.
Really? Would you like $8 million/yr to play for Jacksonville? I hear they're short a guy like that right now.

[Simple Jaded]

I do not give one shit about how tight ends block.

Shift to the Shotgun and go 9 on 11 when you run the ball, why do you hate the running game?

[MOtorboat]

Shift to the Shotgun and go 9 on 11 when you run the ball, why do you hate the running game?

Because it's ineffective and results in less points. And I don't hate it, but I'd rather use the pass to set it up than the other way around.

[Simple Jaded]

Because it's ineffective and results in less points. And I don't hate it, but I'd rather use the pass to set it up than the other way around.

Some have argued that it results in more points for your own defense.

[MOtorboat]

Some have argued that it results in more points for your own defense.

Not if you've got a good defense. This Denver teams needs to step on people's throats. Running it into the line for 2 yards a pop and punting in the fourth quarter doesn't do that.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Julius Thomas dominates last 10 regular season games.

7842

[Ravage!!!]

Julius Thomas dominates last 10 regular season games.

7842

He's ten times better than any TE we have on the roster, and its why the cartoons are used to try to make the point. Everyone knows that our TEs are lacking. They are so poor, its not even funny with some photoshop sign.

[Ravage!!!]

No, the issue is how we define "impactful," because right now (and then) I'd MUCH rather have a TE who could reliably BLOCK FBs and safeties to spring Anderson for 4-5 yds AND periodically BEAT them for 5-10 over the middle or in the flat than a possession receiver who still leaves ALL the pressure on Manning to get him and everyone else the ball. We've got a pair of elite WRs (and, based on Fowlers last game, maybe another on the way.) What we SORELY lack, and have for at least half a DECADE, are solid run blockers, and it's killing our QB and costing us playoff games, even championships.

I don't know if JT ever played through injuries, but if so that just proves him MORE injury prone: Even playing hurt he's lost HALF HIS CAREER to injury. That adds up; if it KEEPS up it will END his career.

I get the whole "Sharpe was a horrible blocker his first few years, Gates, Hernandez, Davis, etc." They all got better because 1) it was their JOB and 2) they CARED enough to IMPROVE unacceptable parts of their job performance, not categorically refuse and justify it by pointing to the other parts of their job they did very well.

"Son, we need to talk about how you're packing the groceries."

"Yeah, boss, did you see me load that one customers stuff into five bags in 30 seconds? :)"

"Uh huh... I saw her eggs and peaches oozing out from underneath her detergent, too, and you need to work on that."

"Nah, I'm just gonna load the next one up in TWENTY seconds 'cause it's SO :censored: EASY111"

"Right... listen, my brother-in-law runs a car wash; have you ever thought about washing cars...?"

#Can'tBlocktheSunoutofHisEyes
all your made up conversations and assumptions about caring doesn't make your opinion more valid. Its just made up filler to make you feel more correct.

[Poet]

Not if you've got a good defense. This Denver teams needs to step on people's throats. Running it into the line for 2 yards a pop and punting in the fourth quarter doesn't do that.

The difference between this defense and any other defense that Manning has had is dynamic play-makers are all around him. Being down against the old Colts was awful because of Mathis and Freeney. Mathis and Freeney don't have shit on Ware and Von Miller. It's not even close - Both Ware and V.M. trump Freeney at his best, and whichever you don't choose trumps Mathis with ease. Now imagine having that pass rush unleashed on you while knowing that your hot read is probably going to get slumped by Ward, the two best WR's on the field have Harris and Talib on them, and even worse is the fact that Denver might be blitzing.

It sucks that the first time Manning has a truly dominate defense he's at the tail end of his career. Tom Brady used to have defenses that got turnovers like crazy when he was a young QB. They were so good he was just a game manager then.

The point is that getting to such a tremendous situation on defense requires a lead. Denver is better served passing the ball, maybe not as much as the past, but throwing to set up the run.

[MOtorboat]

The difference between this defense and any other defense that Manning has had is dynamic play-makers are all around him. Being down against the old Colts was awful because of Mathis and Freeney. Mathis and Freeney don't have shit on Ware and Von Miller. It's not even close - Both Ware and V.M. trump Freeney at his best, and whichever you don't choose trumps Mathis with ease. Now imagine having that pass rush unleashed on you while knowing that your hot read is probably going to get slumped by Ward, the two best WR's on the field have Harris and Talib on them, and even worse is the fact that Denver might be blitzing.

It sucks that the first time Manning has a truly dominate defense he's at the tail end of his career. Tom Brady used to have defenses that got turnovers like crazy when he was a young QB. They were so good he was just a game manager then.

The point is that getting to such a tremendous situation on defense requires a lead. Denver is better served passing the ball, maybe not as much as the past, but throwing to set up the run.

Maybe later in the year, Denver can run a little more conventionally, but as long as that line is shit they have to get people into space, the pitches to Hillman helped Sunday, but Denver has to be more creative in the short passing game. At this point it simply has to replace a running game. I'm disappointed that they aren't running more slants, which is a staple of the Shanahan/Kubiak West Coast Offense, anyway. Hell, try Hillman on a slant. I'm not 100 percent sure why they are trying to rely on double moves and fades so much. It'd help if the tight ends would be more consistent in catching the football. Daniels needs props for the great catch at the end of the game and Green needs props for the long run after the pass down the sideline. But more consistency to help stretch the offense.

:rambling:

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe later in the year, Denver can run a little more conventionally, but as long as that line is shit they have to get people into space, the pitches to Hillman helped Sunday, but Denver has to be more creative in the short passing game. At this point it simply has to replace a running game. I'm disappointed that they aren't running more slants, which is a staple of the Shanahan/Kubiak West Coast Offense, anyway. Hell, try Hillman on a slant. I'm not 100 percent sure why they are trying to rely on double moves and fades so much. It'd help if the tight ends would be more consistent in catching the football. Daniels needs props for the great catch at the end of the game and Green needs props for the long run after the pass down the sideline. But more consistency to help stretch the offense.

:rambling:

We just need SOMETHING to take a little pressure and coverage off our outside guys. SOMETHING to press the middle of the field, because right now, we have nothing that threatens anyone. Hillman would be fast enough from the slot.. I'd like to see that kind of change and thinking.

[MOtorboat]

We just need SOMETHING to take a little pressure and coverage off our outside guys. SOMETHING to press the middle of the field, because right now, we have nothing that threatens anyone. Hillman would be fast enough from the slot.. I'd like to see that kind of change and thinking.

Hillman in the slot, Sanders in the slot...Fowler did it a little bit.

[Joel]

Because it's ineffective and results in less points. And I don't hate it, but I'd rather use the pass to set it up than the other way around.
Passing to establish the run is like a haymaker to set up a jab. SHORT passing to establish the run is like a jab to set up ANOTHER jab with the SAME HAND.

4.2 yds/att (the AVERAGE NFL rushing yardage pretty much since forever) isn't ineffective; a team that consistenlty gets 4.2 yds/play will NEVER punt. And lose the ball 5-6 times a season instead of 25-30.

[MOtorboat]

Passing to establish the run is like a haymaker to set up a jab. SHORT passing to establish the run is like a jab to set up ANOTHER jab with the SAME HAND.

4.2 yds/att (the AVERAGE NFL rushing yardage pretty much since forever) isn't ineffective; a team that consistenlty gets 4.2 yds/play will NEVER punt. And lose the ball 5-6 times a season instead of 25-30.

The NFL and, well, all of football, disagrees. Can you explain that?

Nevermind, ignore that. None of us are going to read that bullshit, anyway.

[Poet]

Passing to establish the run is like a haymaker to set up a jab. SHORT passing to establish the run is like a jab to set up ANOTHER jab with the SAME HAND.

4.2 yds/att (the AVERAGE NFL rushing yardage pretty much since forever) isn't ineffective; a team that consistenlty gets 4.2 yds/play will NEVER punt. And lose the ball 5-6 times a season instead of 25-30.

The great passers don't lose the ball that often. Look at Brady, Manning, and Rodgers on the years they go nuts. Honestly the biggest turnover QB who was an absolute stud was Brees, and the production that he had more than made up for it.

Passing to set up the run is what Green Bay does. It's what the Patriots are doing, believe me, Gronk and Edelmen aren't sitting there going "thank god for Dion Lewis and Blount," two castoff players who are replaced in an instant. Also, the argument of if a team gets 4.2 they never punt doesn't work. It's not that your math is wrong, but the reason that number is so high is because of long runs. Charles out of KC has the all-time YPC, but he doesn't get 5.5 yards a carry. If he literally did the Chiefs couldn't lose a game despite the fact that they are the Chiefs. It stems from long runs, and ironically right now it's that high because teams are having problems stopping the run because of the passing league. There's a reason why the fullback position is nearing extinction, and why the box safety style is going the way of the Dodo bird. Sure, Kam Chancellor exists, but that's because the cover 3 scheme allows that to occur, and their linebackers are an insane group.

If you are a purely defensive team, you should run the ball. If you aren't passing the ball is the better way to go, and while a balanced offense is always a good thing, those teams tend to win games based off of passing. Believe me, I'm watching Hue Jackson go from a run orientated style to a more balanced one for a reason.

[Poet]

We just need SOMETHING to take a little pressure and coverage off our outside guys. SOMETHING to press the middle of the field, because right now, we have nothing that threatens anyone. Hillman would be fast enough from the slot.. I'd like to see that kind of change and thinking.

Sanders should get a few more snaps a game at the slot position. I know that you don't want him there a ton, but holy shit the middle of the field is a deadzone for boys. D.T. in the slot every now and again wouldn't be bad, either.

[TXBRONC]

Ah, the assumption that he would be injured if he were a Bronco. Hey, Dog, if Jamaal Charles was a Bronco I bet he'd be injured. Oh, I bet that if Julio Jones were a Bronco he'd be injured, too. :D

I hope Spike flags you for taunting. :wave:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He's ten times better than any TE we have on the roster, and its why the cartoons are used to try to make the point. Everyone knows that our TEs are lacking. They are so poor, its not even funny with some photoshop sign.

I don't deny he's an impact receiver when he's on the field. That's the point I'm making here (and yes it is funny). He had almost no impact in the second half of the season last year.

[Timmy!]

2-0

[BroncoJoe]

2-0

3-0

[Timmy!]

3-0

Well yes, but no. 2-0 is the updated touchdowns of current Bronco TE's this season vs a certain former Bronco TE.

[Joel]

Well yes, but no. 2-0 is the updated touchdowns of current Bronco TE's this season vs a certain former Bronco TE.
Through 3 games, I have as many receptions, yards and TDs as JT—and block about as well: I can haz $50 million? ;)

Signing him, let alone to THAT contract, without making a big chunk of it incentives based on playing time, was moronic. But then: Jax; this is a team paying Beadles $5 mil/yr. :redface:

[BroncoJoe]

Well yes, but no. 2-0 is the updated touchdowns of current Bronco TE's this season vs a certain former Bronco TE.

OK - good point.

I'm not upset JT is gone. Not sure why others are crying over spilled milk. It's done and over with. Move on, people.

PS: MO is going to come at you with all kinds of "potential" record breaking stats for JT.

3,2,1....

[Ravage!!!]

Through 3 games, I have as many receptions, yards and TDs as JT—and block about as well: I can haz $50 million? ;)

Signing him, let alone to THAT contract, without making a big chunk of it incentives based on playing time, was moronic. But then: Jax; this is a team paying Beadles $5 mil/yr. :redface:

Because good players don't sign "incentive laden" contracts. Those are for suckers. Its why they aren't used except for bonuses.

But teams don't sign impact TEs for their blocking. Seattle signed a big contract to Graham. Think he got that because ofhis blocking? Think NE would let Gronk go if he couldn't block, despite his injury history? The blocking thing when talking about a receiving TE is so completely over-used around here, its embarrassing. Just as the idea that JT would have had the hand injury had he been anywhere else, OTHER, than where he was in Jax when it happened.

sure seems like that the receiving TE is missed much much MUCH more than the blocking TE is helping.