Frank Schwab on why Hillis didn't get more carries/touches

[Tned]

Frank Schwab of the Colorado Springs Gazette addressed a question that I posed about Hillis involvement in the offense:


Reader suggestion: Where was Hillis?

September 17th, 2009, 3:20 pm · Post a Comment · posted by Frank Schwab

A few Twitter followers, @picklerino, @craigary and @BroncosForums, wondered about the lack of touches for Peyton Hillis on Sunday, and whether the absence of Spencer Larsen (http://twitter.com/BroncosForums/status/4038839466) had anything to do with it. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said that not having Larsen, who suffered a shoulder injury in a freak accident before the game, might have had a little to do with Hillis getting only one carry and one catch against Cincinnati. Larsen's absence left Hillis as the only fullback.

"It could have affected where he's going in and all of that stuff," McDaniels said. "If Spencer was there, Spencer could have played some fullback."

More than that, McDaniels said the flow of the game - and the Broncos facing long situations on second and third down because of their struggles on first down - limited Hillis' chances.

"The way we played the game dictated that's how it went," McDaniels said.

Read the rest of Frank's article at: http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2009/09/17/reader-suggestion-where-was-hillis/1393/

[Slick]

Give it to Hillis a few more times on first down Coach, I'll bet you'll find a few less 2nd and longs as a result.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Give it to Hillis a few more times on first down Coach, I'll bet you'll find a few less 2nd and longs as a result.

My thoughts too.

[Lonestar]

it looked like other than one or two slants off of tackle we did not have much luck running against any of those DT they had going..

not sure our OLINE is quite ready to move that much beef around..

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Give it to Hillis a few more times on first down Coach, I'll bet you'll find a few less 2nd and longs as a result.

I would love to see Hillis run more also. Many of the long 2nds were a result of a penalty.

[Slick]

it looked like other than one or two slants off of tackle we did not have much luck running against any of those DT they had going..

not sure our OLINE is quite ready to move that much beef around..

Good point, Kuper's absence hurt us. We'll know in a few more weeks if our offense was that bad, or their defense was that good. Fingers crossed for the latter.

[powderaddict]

I wonder if they arn't keeping him in their pocket, and will unleash him against the Cowboys?

The less they do early on the more surprises they can unleash when the competition gets turned up a notch.

Maybe not, but I'm wondering.

[Shutdown]

It doesn't seem like Hillis, when he did get touches, ran with the power or authority we saw last season. Didn't see the downhill north/south type of running.

Maybe he was holding back for a reason?

[Slick]

I wonder if they arn't keeping him in their pocket, and will unleash him against the Cowboys?

The less they do early on the more surprises they can unleash when the competition gets turned up a notch.

Maybe not, but I'm wondering.

Maybe so. I thought they might use him early, try to soften up the defense for Buckhalter and Moreno. After last weeks game, I'm hoping they'll use Buck to soften them up, then use Hillis and Moreno more in the second half.

[Lonestar]

Good point, Kuper's absence hurt us. We'll know in a few more weeks if our offense was that bad, or their defense was that good. Fingers crossed for the latter.



Hamilton was no big help either.. I think 2-3 of the three flags on the OLINE were his..

sorry but "Show me the Beef" I want all of my OLINE over 300..

[Shutdown]

Hamilton was no big help either.. I think 2-3 of the three flags on the OLINE were his..

sorry but "Show me the Beef" I want all of my OLINE over 300..

No doubt. Hamilton was not playing well.

[LRtagger]

All of the runners seemed timid except Bucky.

But it does make sense that Hillis saw limited carries with our backup FB hurt. You don't want to get your only FB hurt in case you need him for 2-back short-yardage situations.

[T.K.O.]

I wonder if they arn't keeping him in their pocket, and will unleash him against the Cowboys?

The less they do early on the more surprises they can unleash when the competition gets turned up a notch.

Maybe not, but I'm wondering.

i think if were waiting to see if we dont get a miracle at the end of each game .....we might have to re-think our strategy;)
the "competition will be plenty tough to throw out all the stops every week !

[nevcraw]

when passing from 3rd and 2 in the shotgun in makes pounding the rock difficult..

[Dean]

After 15 years of phenominal success running the ball in the zone blocking scheme, suddenly we can not run the ball. Maybe we should retain zone blocking and one cut running.

. . . and boy do we need Kuper back!

[T.K.O.]

After 15 years of phenominal success running the ball in the zone blocking scheme, suddenly we can not run the ball. Maybe we whould retain zone blocking and one cut running.

. . . and boy do we need terrell davis back!
i could'nt resist

[elsid13]

After 15 years of phenominal success running the ball in the zone blocking scheme, suddenly we can not run the ball. Maybe we whould retain zone blocking and one cut running.

. . . and boy do we need Kuper back!

They are still running the ZBS, but have incorporated more man to man blocking and traps. BTW Denver was running more traps over the last couple of season when Shanahan was in charge. I think the problem isn't the blocking scheme it the lack of patience on calling runs and to much rotations of backs.

[Lonestar]

All of the runners seemed timid except Bucky.

But it does make sense that Hillis saw limited carries with our backup FB hurt. You don't want to get your only FB hurt in case you need him for 2-back short-yardage situations.



they have a couple designated BIG FB's to play but I do not remember who they are.. seemed to me it was one of the TE and OLINE backups..

[honz]

We ran the ball okay against Cincy. Not great, but not terrible either. Penalties and dropped passes hurt us more than anything last Sunday.

[Dean]

We ran the ball okay against Cincy. Not great, but not terrible either. Penalties and dropped passes hurt us more than anything last Sunday.

I think that 3.2 yards per carry is IMO somewhat less than okay.

[topscribe]

After 15 years of phenominal success running the ball in the zone blocking scheme, suddenly we can not run the ball. Maybe we whould retain zone blocking and one cut running.

. . . and boy do we need Kuper back!

I keep asking myself: "It wasn't broke, so why did they fix it?" :confused:

-----

[Nomad]

Isn't Larson the one who slipped in the shower, hopefully he'll buy himself some quality shower shoes!! Jordan seems big enough to play fullback. I'm anxious to see Hillis run.

[honz]

I think that 3.2 yards per carry is IMO somewhat less than okay.

It was actually 3.8. Cincy averaged 3.2 YPC. I would consider 3.8 a respectable average.

[T.K.O.]

It was actually 3.8. Cincy averaged 3.2 YPC. I would consider 3.8 a respectable average.

and if you take out moreno's what.....1.8 ? it would look down right respectable;)

[Tned]

Isn't Larson the one who slipped in the shower, hopefully he'll buy himself some quality shower shoes!! Jordan seems big enough to play fullback. I'm anxious to see Hillis run.

Bull Durham:


Crash Davis: Your shower shoes have fungus on them. Youll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, youll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the pressll think youre colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob.

Larsen is in the big show and needs some fungus free shower shoes. :lol:

[Dean]

It was actually 3.8. Cincy averaged 3.2 YPC. I would consider 3.8 a respectable average.

I stand corrected; I incorrectly remembered the yards gained to be 65. It was twenty carries for 75 yards which is 3.75 yd/carry. Respectable??????

[topscribe]

I stand corrected; I incorrectly remembered the yards gained to be 65. It was twenty carries for 75 yards which is 3.75 yd/carry. Respectable??????

I don't think so. For instance, I checked out Chicago's YPA for 2008, which
was 3.9. That was good for #27 in the league. Kinda puts it in a different
light, doesn't it?

-----

[jhildebrand]

I just don't buy some of what Josh McDaniels is selling when it comes to Peyton Hillis.

It appeared all preaseason long, to me, that he was showcasing the guy. McD also seems to have a double standard with the RB's. Torain was cut because he wasn't healthy and couldn't contribute. However, LaMont Jordan wasn't healthy for most of camp and he is here and getting valuable carries!

Ultimately, it took Shanahan and company far too long to see what they had in Hillis. It appears McDaniels and company are going the same route.

What would it hurt to give the ball to Hillis on anything other than short down situations? Let the guy go out and prove himself again so you can better work Moreno into the pro game!

[Shutdown]

I just don't buy some of what Josh McDaniels is selling when it comes to Peyton Hillis.

It appeared all preaseason long, to me, that he was showcasing the guy. McD also seems to have a double standard with the RB's. Torain was cut because he wasn't healthy and couldn't contribute. However, LaMont Jordan wasn't healthy for most of camp and he is here and getting valuable carries!

Ultimately, it took Shanahan and company far too long to see what they had in Hillis. It appears McDaniels and company are going the same route.

What would it hurt to give the ball to Hillis on anything other than short down situations? Let the guy go out and prove himself again so you can better work Moreno into the pro game!

Honestly, how many short yardage situations did we really have?

Hillis will get his touches. From what I got from the presser today McD is all about having everyone of our skill players on the field. Which ever one is in the best position to make a play will get the ball.

With Larsen out Hillis is all we have a FB. Once Larsen is back I think we will start seeing more of him though.

[jhildebrand]

Honestly, how many short yardage situations did we really have?

Hillis will get his touches. From what I got from the presser today McD is all about having everyone of our skill players on the field. Which ever one is in the best position to make a play will get the ball.

With Larsen out Hillis is all we have a FB. Once Larsen is back I think we will start seeing more of him though.

I hear you Shutdown. The problem with that, and why I am not buying McD on this one, is this system doesn't utilize a FB too often. Hardly at all. I saw Hillis lined up at FB a few times and those few times will presumably go to Larsen once he is back. We can only speculate if Hillis would have been on the field if Larsen didn't jack himself up.

[honz]

Hillis was also a big part of the passing game in the preseason from both the FB and RB position. I think McD clearly likes Hillis and all he brings to the table...he simply didn't get many looks in the passing game (and dropped what should have been a 1st down catch on 3rd down when he did get a look) and it sounds like He didn't get run as a HB because he was our only healthy FB on Sunday.

[honz]

I hear you Shutdown. The problem with that, and why I am not buying McD on this one, is this system doesn't utilize a FB too often. Hardly at all. I saw Hillis lined up at FB a few times and those few times will presumably go to Larsen once he is back. We can only speculate if Hillis would have been on the field if Larsen didn't jack himself up.

Hillis got almost all the run at FB in the preseason. Not sure why that would change. He caught quite a few passes when lining up at FB as well. He will be utilized and have some better games. Eddie was also a big part of our offense in the preseason, but didn't get a lot of looks last week for some reason. I don't expect that to consistently happen either.

[jhildebrand]

Hillis got almost all the run at FB in the preseason. Not sure why that would change. He caught quite a few passes when lining up at FB as well. He will be utilized and have some better games. Eddie was also a big part of our offense in the preseason, but didn't get a lot of looks last week for some reason. I don't expect that to consistently happen either.

Sure. But one person is proposing the reason Hillis was limited was because Larsen was out at FB due to injury.

I agree that Hillis had a lot of looks in the preseason. But like I said before, I believe he was being shopped. How much time did Hillis get with the #1's?

Most other coaches coming in would have a clear idea of what they had in Hillis. With Buckhalter and Hillis you could have used the Moreno pick somewhere else. Which brings me back to my original point: I don't buy McD on this one.

[rcsodak]

I just don't buy some of what Josh McDaniels is selling when it comes to Peyton Hillis.

It appeared all preaseason long, to me, that he was showcasing the guy. McD also seems to have a double standard with the RB's. Torain was cut because he wasn't healthy and couldn't contribute. However, LaMont Jordan wasn't healthy for most of camp and he is here and getting valuable carries!

Ultimately, it took Shanahan and company far too long to see what they had in Hillis. It appears McDaniels and company are going the same route.

What would it hurt to give the ball to Hillis on anything other than short down situations? Let the guy go out and prove himself again so you can better work Moreno into the pro game!
Good questions, but easily answered:

Torain hasn't made it 1 season, healthy...going back to college. Jordan, on the other hand, KNOWS the system, and McD knows him. Not to mention, he is only a stop-gap rb.

How do you figure it took Shanny too long? How long do you think Hillis has been witht he team? Besides, he wasn't brought in to be a RB. And probably wasn't given the chance to showcase his running ability until after the others all went down.
Me on the other hand....knew before he was drafted....but I won't brag. *wink*

[rcsodak]

I hear you Shutdown. The problem with that, and why I am not buying McD on this one, is this system doesn't utilize a FB too often. Hardly at all. I saw Hillis lined up at FB a few times and those few times will presumably go to Larsen once he is back. We can only speculate if Hillis would have been on the field if Larsen didn't jack himself up.

Well, since it's obvious you're not trusting anything McD is saying, this'll probably fall on deaf ears.....


...but McD has clearly stated, that this offense is in no way/shape/form identical to what he was running in NE.

Different parts means different dynamics.

BM isn't Moss.

Orton isn't Brady.

Buckhalter isn't Maroney.

Just because there are similarities, doesn't mean they're identical.

[rcsodak]

Sure. But one person is proposing the reason Hillis was limited was because Larsen was out at FB due to injury.

I agree that Hillis had a lot of looks in the preseason. But like I said before, I believe he was being shopped. How much time did Hillis get with the #1's?

Most other coaches coming in would have a clear idea of what they had in Hillis. With Buckhalter and Hillis you could have used the Moreno pick somewhere else. Which brings me back to my original point: I don't buy McD on this one.

Good grief....*black helicopter sound*.......


McD didn't know WHAT HE HAD IN HILLIS!!!!

Read what he says. :rolleyes:

How many games has Hillis played in, in his NFL career?

I think it might take a while before a 'resume' can be afforded him. A handful

of games doesn't make a career.


I love hillis...have before the draft.....but until he proves himself for a longer period of time, he's nothing more than an above average player. Nothing more/nothing less. This team will not lose the division if he's not running the ball.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Hillis probably isn't getting more touches because he isn't as great as people would like to think he is.

[Elevation inc]

After 15 years of phenominal success running the ball in the zone blocking scheme, suddenly we can not run the ball. Maybe we should retain zone blocking and one cut running.

. . . and boy do we need Kuper back!

we ran the zbs like 11 times and Man 8....we only had like 19 carries the whole game, our interior O-line with hochstein, hamilton, and weigman, was weak and weigman and hamilton get pushed around always when dealing with bigger Dt's

kuper is a big loss and unfortunaetly olsen is a very good run blocker but is very raw at pass blocking so we cant use him just yet.

and we ran the ball decently the first half, but then we hit a offense wall with drops, and penalties and 3 and outs.

also we had a couple 3rd and shorts where we tried screens that didnt work...gotta stop that crap....they already expect run and play close....

also moreno looks a little tenative from his knee issue, hillis was the only FB, bukcy looked good and WTF is jordan still on the roster for??? lol


things will gradually improve if we dedicate 25-27 touches a game to teh run....

even last year we did alot of man blocking, the zbs is still in effect at least 50-60 % of the time.

dont be suprised to see C/G as big needs in the first 4 rds next year

[Dirk]

Hillis probably isn't getting more touches because he isn't as great as people would like to think he is.

I think that comes from him being the only RB last year that gave the running game life! He came in and was the "WOW" factor at RB.

I think the kid is a stud with a ton of heart! Give the rock to Bucky and Hillis. It could be our 1-2 punch at RB this year!

[EastCoastBronco]

Not a bad thing at all but I think that Hillis is going to wind up being our version of Kevin Faulk.

[broncofaninfla]

Because Larsen's injury occurred right before the game, Denver really didn't get an opportunity to prep another player for the FB role which meant Hillis essentially became our only viable option for FB last Sunday. I look for Jordon or one of the tight ends to split time with Hillis allowing him more opportunities to touch the ball.

[jhildebrand]

Good questions, but easily answered:

Torain hasn't made it 1 season, healthy...going back to college. Jordan, on the other hand, KNOWS the system, and McD knows him. Not to mention, he is only a stop-gap rb.

That's fine and dandy and all but I think we can all agree that you are simply speculating not to mention putting words in McD's mouth.

What we do know for sure is the McDaniels made it clear Torain was cut because he was not going to be able to contribute. He wouldn't speak anymore on the issue because he didn't want to play into the idea that he was cutting Shanahan guys.

Jordan was not able to contribute for the final three weeks of camp and preseason but still kept a spot. Double standard? Furthermore, Hillis was healthy and played more than most starters due in part to injuries! I think he showed he not only can work this system but did more than Jordan. The NE style system values versatility which Hillis has way more of than Jordan. That should amount to some carries on something other than 3rd and short which is all McDaniels referenced with Hillis this week when asked. At a minimum I would think Hillis would get those carries before Jordan.



How do you figure it took Shanny too long? How long do you think Hillis has been witht he team? Besides, he wasn't brought in to be a RB. And probably wasn't given the chance to showcase his running ability until after the others all went down.

Do you follow this team? :confused: Did you pay attention at all last year. :confused: It was widely reported before camp broke that Shanahan not only thought Hillis had the best hands on the team but he knew what kind of player he was. He referenced using him just like Cooley and Clark. Some running, some blocking, some lined up out wide.

Furthermore, Hillis played had 3 carries for 14 yards and a reception week 1 against Oak. He did not see the ball or action again until the Miami game and even then it was all receptions! 7 weeks passed! I think that is the team taking too long to figure out what they knew in camp. In all fairness, Shanahan was stubborn and old school when it came to the rooks and playing time.



Me on the other hand....knew before he was drafted....but I won't brag. *wink* I would hope so. ;)


Well, since it's obvious you're not trusting anything McD is saying, this'll probably fall on deaf ears.....

In all fairness, you don't know me so what makes you think you can say that? :confused: I am not anti mcdaniels as some are. Have I been critical? Sure but no more so than I was of Shanahan.



...but McD has clearly stated, that this offense is in no way/shape/form identical to what he was running in NE.

Different parts means different dynamics.

BM isn't Moss.

Orton isn't Brady.

Buckhalter isn't Maroney.

Just because there are similarities, doesn't mean they're identical.

I never said anything to that effect. However, the system does utilize and value multi position players. It does utilize a single back set more often than not. It is a system known for playing the guys who do it in practice, ota's, camp, and preseason, and the installation of the game plan. All things Hillis did that Jordan did sparingly at best.


Good grief....*black helicopter sound*.......


That's not a helicopter sound. It is misfiring of the synapses as they jump to conclusions and make assessments you know nothing about.



McD didn't know WHAT HE HAD IN HILLIS!!!!

Where did I say that or anything to that affect? McDaniels has already heaped praise on Hillis which makes this all the more frustrating. Should it continue the praise will be proven to be a hollow endorsement and nothing more.



How many games has Hillis played in, in his NFL career?

What's your point? He proved it last year. He proved it in camp and preseason. More important is how much he has left. Jordan is all but done. A 2 yard run for him is lucky at best. The guy is old, slow and stiff. A waste of a carry. Hillis is regarded as a top 5 player on the team and Jordan doesn't sniff the top 20.




I think it might take a while before a 'resume' can be afforded him. A handful

of games doesn't make a career.

Youre a real piece of work! Nobody is affording Hillis anything. He cant build on the resume if not given the opportunity. Knowing McD and the system and the ballyhooed theory that those that prepare well and produce play...he should have played more. Sound like a broken record yet? Let's put it another way, what has Jordan shown to deserve those carries especially the few that came on 2nd down?



I love hillis...have before the draft.....but until he proves himself for a longer period of time, he's nothing more than an above average player. Nothing more/nothing less. This team will not lose the division if he's not running the ball. It will if Jordan is getting more touches consistently! How has Jordan proven himself more than Hillis??? Please be specific!! Hillis is an above average player and nothing more....wow! He is a top 5 talent on this team and would be on most teams. What exactly is Jordan?? Again, please be specific.