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BroncoWave
03-31-2015, 06:01 PM
After having this discussion just pop up in another thread, I thought it would make for an interesting poll question. Seeing how the offseason has played out for us so far, if you could go back and change things, which of these options would you pick?

Option A: Let Manning go, be able to afford most or all of our key free agents (JT, Franklin, Pot Roast, Moore, etc)

Option B: Keep Manning with the knowledge that we will lose basically all of our free agents to do so.

Now obviously the draft hasn't happened yet so it's too soon to grade the offseason fully, but I think we have seen enough in FA so far to see the direction that the Manning decision has forced the team to go in. So if you could go back, do you still keep Manning, or do you try to keep the rest of our pieces to give Oz the best chance possible of succeeding here?

GEM
03-31-2015, 06:08 PM
We have to have a team when Manning leaves. Right now, I don't see that with him here and hard seeing that in the very close future when he leaves. We let a lot of talent walk.

dogfish
03-31-2015, 06:45 PM
no option for "hoes is a dirtbag" OR "atwater's mom?"

noob. . . :coffee:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-31-2015, 06:48 PM
I don't usually spend a lot of time speculating about unlikely scenarios. We are not losing "all" of our valuable FA's.

So far, the only Pro-bowl players we've lost this offseason are JT and PotRoast, and there's a good reason both had limited suitors. Elite teams don't pay players top dollar if they're limited in attitude and offering.


We have a very talented team to compliment Manning. We have one of the most talented defenses in the league. If you want to look at a team that is losing a lot of high caliber talent then look at the Patriots. They lost both starting corners and their NT.

VonDoom
03-31-2015, 07:13 PM
I don't know if it's as black and white as you're making it out to be, but I assume you're doing this as an experiment. I have to think that Elway (and Kubiak) wasn't really interested in keeping a lot of these guys anyway, for various reasons. If they were, they would have done more to free up some money (cut dead weight, restructure Clady, perhaps) with which to keep them.

First, remember that if we didn't keep Manning, we would need to replace him with a veteran backup to compete with Oz and potentially start. That kind of guy (Cassel, Fitzpatrick, Schaub) is going to run you around $3-4 million. Also, I suspect we wouldn't have kept JT under any circumstance at the price tag he got from Jacksonville, so factor him out. As for Knighton ... he looks like a bargain at $4 million, but a) perhaps there's a reason all of his former coaches passed on him and b) if we had shown interest early on, we would not have gotten him at that price. I'm not even sure Wade wanted him for this scheme, but let's say he did, in this scenario.

So we're really talking about having either a) random QB, Franklin, Knighton and Moore or b) Manning, Smith, Stewart and Walker. Scenario a) also leaves us with approximately $4-6 million more than we have now (quick estimate via Over the Cap) so we could have brought in someone else as well that might have helped.

Which is better? I'm leaning towards the scenario without Manning. I suspect we would have been worse without him at QB, but it leaves a better groundwork for next year and starts the rebuilding around Oz (or whoever). That being said, all is not lost here - assuming Manning leaves after this year (and probably Ware as well), we should have a ton of money to be big players in the FA market again next year. My guess is that for this year, Elway thinks that the best chance to give it a go is once again with Manning, even if his supporting cast is weaker. The best case scenario there is that the young guys step up, and our already very good defense gets even better under a better DC. It's not as far fetched as people are making it seem.

VonDoom
03-31-2015, 07:14 PM
We have a very talented team to compliment Manning. We have one of the most talented defenses in the league. If you want to look at a team that is losing a lot of high caliber talent then look at the Patriots. They lost both starting corners and their NT.

This is true. I suspect they will once again be a top team, though. Is their fanbase in a panic over losing these guys? They have trust (and rightfully so) in the front office over there.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-31-2015, 07:16 PM
This is true. I suspect they will once again be a top team, though. Is their fanbase in a panic over losing these guys? They have trust (and rightfully so) in the front office over there.

exactly...

spikerman
03-31-2015, 08:31 PM
Yeah, considering the Broncos never made a serious effort to sign any of these guys I'm guessing that they never intended to bring them back. It may not be as "either/or" as it seems.

BroncoWave
03-31-2015, 08:45 PM
Yeah, considering the Broncos never made a serious effort to sign any of these guys I'm guessing that they never intended to bring them back. It may not be as "either/or" as it seems.

But maybe they didn't make a very serious effort because they knew they couldn't afford to keep them...

spikerman
03-31-2015, 08:55 PM
But maybe they didn't make a very serious effort because they knew they couldn't afford to keep them...

I suppose that's possible, and it's entirely conceivable that I missed it, but I never even heard of the Broncos reaching out. That's just standard procedure if you're interested in bringing them back.

BroncoWave
03-31-2015, 09:21 PM
Maybe I'm way off base, but I feel like had Manning not come back and we had all this cap space, we would have at least tried to bring back guys like Irving, Franklin, and Moore. And maybe even JT to give Oz a red zone safety blanket. I could be way off base, but I have a hard time believing Denver lets all those guys go if they can afford them.

spikerman
03-31-2015, 09:23 PM
Maybe I'm way off base, but I feel like had Manning not come back and we had all this cap space, we would have at least tried to bring back guys like Irving, Franklin, and Moore. And maybe even JT to give Oz a red zone safety blanket. I could be way off base, but I have a hard time believing Denver lets all those guys go if they can afford them.

I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong. You may very well be right, but I just think that all of those guys back without a proven QB wouldn't make much of a difference. I think the Broncos have a puncher's chance with Manning, but I'd be less confident with Oz starting.

Tned
03-31-2015, 09:26 PM
no option for "hoes is a dirtbag" OR "atwater's mom?"

noob. . . :coffee:

Or, 'The "real" Atwater was bad ass"

That would have been the option I chose. Christian Okoye is still stumbling backwards.

BroncoWave
03-31-2015, 09:27 PM
I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong. You may very well be right, but I just think that all of those guys back without a proven QB wouldn't make much of a difference. I think the Broncos have a puncher's chance with Manning, but I'd be less confident with Oz starting.

I agree that Manning gives us a better chance than Oz this season, but I think the bigger question is if you are ok with seemingly mortaging our future to try to make a run with a 39 year old QB who has a less talented roster then he went one and done with the year before. I just don't know if that's the best way to go for the future of the franchise.

Tned
03-31-2015, 09:41 PM
Here's the deal.



Knighton. No big loss. No team wanted to touch him, because like in Jax, once he "thought" he had made it, he got out of shape and wasn't giving it his all. Signing him to the $8 mil or so he wanted would have been a big mistake. He got a ONE year, $4 million contract. That should tell you all you need to know.
Moore. He turned into a solid safety, but we have others that can step up. Especially as good as the rest of the secondary is.
Franklin. Was a terrible tackle, but I think was/could be a good run blocking guard. However, not exactly all pro material. That said, I would have liked to keep him, but the Broncos probably wouldn't have at his price, even if they had ditched Manning.
Julius Thomas. The only free agent I really hate to see go. When healthy (key word being "when") he's one of the best pass catching TE's in the game. However, he's spent much of his career hurt, and isn't a good blocker.


None of those players, or all of them combined, were going to insure the Broncos were perennial SB contenders. With the exception of a healthy JT in an offense that doesn't need a blocking TE, none of them are difference makers.

Manning, even with what he's lost in velocity, still gives the Broncos a chance to win it all this year. Prior to getting injured in the second half of the season, he was still playing at a top tier level. The failures last year had more to do with the coaching staff and their misguided attempt to remake the team as a "tough" we can run by putting in six or seven linemen, team, which was an overreaction to the SB loss. Instead, they should have stuck with what got them to the SB, which was being one of the best offenses to ever take the field, and supplemented it with the improved defense. The coaching staff, offensive scheme was a far greater problem than Manning's age.

So, yea, as much as I hated losing JT and to a lesser extent Moore, I'll take Manning in a heartbeat for another year or two over those free agents.

P.S. Considering Franklin's lack of mobility and nimbleness, there is a lot of question as to whether he would have succeeded in Kubiak's offense.

Davii
03-31-2015, 09:45 PM
I agree that Manning gives us a better chance than Oz this season, but I think the bigger question is if you are ok with seemingly mortaging our future to try to make a run with a 39 year old QB who has a less talented roster then he went one and done with the year before. I just don't know if that's the best way to go for the future of the franchise.

This is speculation. We might very well have not offered a contract to the guys you're concerned with walking even if Manning retired. JT was soft and got overpaid, Pot Roast had weight issues and wore down quickly on longer drives, and Orlando doesn't really fit Kube's scheme. Sure, that's also speculation, but it's more believeable IMO.

Tned
03-31-2015, 09:49 PM
This is speculation. We might very well have not offered a contract to the guys you're concerned with walking even if Manning retired. JT was soft and got overpaid, Pot Roast had weight issues and wore down quickly on longer drives, and Orlando doesn't really fit Kube's scheme. Sure, that's also speculation, but it's more believeable IMO.

Yea, now if the choice was to jettison Manning and sign Mallet and McFadden, then I would change my vote.

Woooo Pig Sooie == Super Bowl Baby!!!!

VonDoom
03-31-2015, 10:17 PM
I agree that Manning gives us a better chance than Oz this season, but I think the bigger question is if you are ok with seemingly mortaging our future to try to make a run with a 39 year old QB who has a less talented roster then he went one and done with the year before. I just don't know if that's the best way to go for the future of the franchise.

Like I said, I don't think the future is all that dire beyond this year. This year feels kind of like a transition year to me, which scares me. And we're not going to be good post-Manning until we can find at least a competent, long term QB. It sucks that we had to let a bunch of good players walk, but as we talked about before, that's the price you pay for having a team with a lot of good players. We locked up Harris long term, I think a deal with DT is coming (let's hope so) and I believe we'll make every effort to extend Von. We can't keep everyone and by next year, we'll have the resources to make a FA splash again if we so choose. We also have an opportunity to see if these young guys are worth anything, and we haven't even had a draft yet this year. The QB is still the key to the future (of any team) and that will determine where we are five years down the road.

sneakers
04-01-2015, 05:26 AM
This is difficult. But I say keep manning and trust Elway to find a way.

Northman
04-01-2015, 07:27 AM
Here's the deal.



Knighton. No big loss. No team wanted to touch him, because like in Jax, once he "thought" he had made it, he got out of shape and wasn't giving it his all. Signing him to the $8 mil or so he wanted would have been a big mistake. He got a ONE year, $4 million contract. That should tell you all you need to know.
Moore. He turned into a solid safety, but we have others that can step up. Especially as good as the rest of the secondary is.
Franklin. Was a terrible tackle, but I think was/could be a good run blocking guard. However, not exactly all pro material. That said, I would have liked to keep him, but the Broncos probably wouldn't have at his price, even if they had ditched Manning.
Julius Thomas. The only free agent I really hate to see go. When healthy (key word being "when") he's one of the best pass catching TE's in the game. However, he's spent much of his career hurt, and isn't a good blocker.


None of those players, or all of them combined, were going to insure the Broncos were perennial SB contenders. With the exception of a healthy JT in an offense that doesn't need a blocking TE, none of them are difference makers.

Manning, even with what he's lost in velocity, still gives the Broncos a chance to win it all this year. Prior to getting injured in the second half of the season, he was still playing at a top tier level. The failures last year had more to do with the coaching staff and their misguided attempt to remake the team as a "tough" we can run by putting in six or seven linemen, team, which was an overreaction to the SB loss. Instead, they should have stuck with what got them to the SB, which was being one of the best offenses to ever take the field, and supplemented it with the improved defense. The coaching staff, offensive scheme was a far greater problem than Manning's age.

So, yea, as much as I hated losing JT and to a lesser extent Moore, I'll take Manning in a heartbeat for another year or two over those free agents.

P.S. Considering Franklin's lack of mobility and nimbleness, there is a lot of question as to whether he would have succeeded in Kubiak's offense.


Agreed.

Also, its difficult to say we have "lesser" talent when we really havent seen what the other players have. Some of you guys are seriously jumping the gun when it comes to what we have or dont have in terms of talent. Furthermore, free agents come and go EVERY YEAR. Who's to say we dont sign more guys after Manning leaves and surround Oz with other players next year? I mean frankly Wave, you pretty much nailed it in your initial post about this, we simply dont know how its going to play out because we havent even hit the draft nor played any games this year yet. People need to really settle down and relax. Its not the end of the world here.

BroncoWave
04-01-2015, 08:37 AM
I mean, at this point in time, we are a less talented team than were were at the end of the season. I don't really see how you can debate that, North. We certainly didn't get better by losing JT, Franklin, Pot Roast, Irving, and Moore and replacing them with a bunch of bargain bin players. That's not to say Elway doesn't kill it in the draft or make a big trade or something, but RIGHT NOW, the team is less talented than it was before.

BroncoNut
04-01-2015, 09:11 AM
Is "that the op never ever post again" an option? Just kidding

Northman
04-01-2015, 09:34 AM
I mean, at this point in time, we are a less talented team than were were at the end of the season.

But we really dont know that yet. I remember one time the Chargers had a great RB name LT, and behind him was Michael Turner and Darren Sproles. You never know what you have until the other players take the field. We didnt know what we had in CJ until he took the field this year and everyone was moaning about not having Moreno anymore. For all we know we might have some studs in the waiting.

Ravage!!!
04-01-2015, 09:59 AM
So far, the only Pro-bowl players we've lost this offseason are JT and PotRoast, and there's a good reason both had limited suitors. Elite teams don't pay players top dollar if they're limited in attitude and offering.


There are a couple reasons for this other than what you are implying. Elite teams are elite because they have few holes, and/or, they are elite because they are paying top players on their roster already.....thus don't have the money to spend on top FAs. It's why the bottom teams get the 1st overall pick. Its not beacuse those elite teams dont WANT the top picks.

I know that gets in the way of player bashing, but ...

Ravage!!!
04-01-2015, 10:04 AM
As for the poll... I went with keeping Manning.

The NFL is ALLLLL about THIS season. I know the mantra seems to be "we have to look forward to the future"..and you do, but not when you have an elite QB at the helm. Seriously, we don't know what will happen in the future. We don't know what will leave us, or fall into our lap. So right now, we have to look at THIS team, this year, THIS opportunity and make the absolute best of it while we can. We know, that when we move forward without Manning, that we are basically into "rebuilding" as opposed to "reloading" mode that we are in right now. Top teams LOSE FA's.

Moving forward with a new coach, at this point, is as big of an uphill battle than anything else we have to deal with.

Krugan
04-01-2015, 04:23 PM
I chose lose, based simply on the situation the Broncos are in right now, not so much the couple players we lost.

This is a new coaching staff, this is a relatively young team, and Manning is at most 2 years away from being gone.

Look I like this team winning, but at this juncture, i would have been happy to see a fresh start with a new coaching staff and looking for the growth of the team.

The loss of knighton is very meh in my thoughts, although this year may show we need him more than we though, JT is a hell of a threat but not a complete player. Also you cant be injured all the time and be considered reliable, you become a liability, and a expensive one at that.

Cugel
04-01-2015, 07:12 PM
Here's a simple question. Would you prefer to be 12-4 this season, or 9-7 and miss the playoffs? :coffee:

As for those people who think life will somehow be better after Manning, were you around when idiots were making the same arguments in 1999? Because this all sounds like Deja Vu to me. All the people demanding to "see what we have in Brian Griese." Arguing that you can win the SB without an elite QB. Talking about how the team was talented and deep at a lot of positions and could win without Elway.

NO. No it couldn't. That team had a ton of talent, but the minute Elway retired that talent could accomplish nothing.

They don't have a QB. Elway doesn't believe in Brock Osweiler or he wouldn't have wanted to sign a FA QB at a higher salary to come in this year. They tried to sign Tyrod Taylor, Flacco's backup. He would have made more money this year than Osweiler. You just don't pay your #3 QB more than your #2 presumptive franchise QB, if he really IS the presumptive future franchise QB.

They wouldn't even have wanted Manning back for a final year if they thought they had their franchise QB in Brock.

Why bother? If you think you've got the next Aaron Rogers or Joe Flacco sitting there waiting for his chance then why waste a year getting him ready?

Clearly they don't think that.

It's going to be a long, painful return to the early 2000s, trying to figure out how the Broncos can get to 10-6, somehow win the division, and then have to face Indianapolis in Indy in the playoffs. Only now instead of Peyton Manning they have to figure out somehow to beat Andrew Luck to advance. To have any chance they will need to find a QB.

And the team failed utterly to find one between 1999 and 2012. Lots of teams go for decades without finding a franchise QB to replace their Hall of Fame guy. How long have they been waiting in Buffalo to replace Jim Kelly? How many coaches and GMs have come and gone in that time? Come to think of it, how long have the Jets been trying to replace Joe Namath? (Short time rental of Brett Favre at the end of his career doesn't count).

Cugel
04-01-2015, 07:27 PM
I agree that Manning gives us a better chance than Oz this season, but I think the bigger question is if you are ok with seemingly mortaging our future to try to make a run with a 39 year old QB who has a less talented roster then he went one and done with the year before. I just don't know if that's the best way to go for the future of the franchise.

What you refuse to accept is that there is no future. The future is now. After Manning retires they have a QB that Elway has no confidence in. No matter what he says, actions speak louder than words. The fans may believe (hope) in Brock Osweiler, but Elway does not, or he would be starting this season.

There's no way past this: Elway is letting Brock Osweiler play out his entire rookie contract without starting a single regular season game for the Broncos. How much could they possibly believe in him as their future Franchise QB?

It just makes no sense to bring Peyton back for 1 more year unless you just don't have confidence in Brock. They'd have to get him some experience some time. Why wait until 2016 unless you just aren't all that confident he's anything special and figure they might as well wait till after Peyton retires, bring in whatever QBs they can and have a competition.

And if Brock goes elsewhere as an Unrestricted FA, well so what? Elway has seen him in practices for 4 years and concluded that he's nothing special. Not the guy they are looking for to build around for the next 10 years.

spikerman
04-01-2015, 09:32 PM
I mean, at this point in time, we are a less talented team than were were at the end of the season. I don't really see how you can debate that, North. We certainly didn't get better by losing JT, Franklin, Pot Roast, Irving, and Moore and replacing them with a bunch of bargain bin players. That's not to say Elway doesn't kill it in the draft or make a big trade or something, but RIGHT NOW, the team is less talented than it was before.

And all of that talent got them what? I'm willing to sacrifice some talent for an attitude adjustment. Hopefully they bring in players who actually play like they care about whether they win or lose. I see what you're saying, but being one of, if not the, most talented teams in the NFL hasn't gotten them to the top.

Simple Jaded
04-01-2015, 09:45 PM
This years free agency was ridiculous, players got massively overpaid. There's a Center making $10 MM this year.

Besides all that I'll take the QB every time.

Ravage!!!
04-02-2015, 12:17 PM
And all of that talent got them what?

A trip to the Super Bowl?

Lets not simply dismiss tht fact purely because we lost. Even how we lost, we STILL got to the friggin Super Bowl. Its like some want to simply believe that getting TO the Super Bowl is a simple task and happens to everyone.

BroncoJoe
04-02-2015, 12:29 PM
Eh - I don't see us winning the Superbowl. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. I'm over Manning. And yes, I'd rather at this point move forward with the younger players and see what we have, and build a SB team that will contend year in and year out, ala the Seahawks.

Again, I hope I'm wrong and will gladly admit it if so.

Northman
04-02-2015, 01:58 PM
A trip to the Super Bowl?

Lets not simply dismiss tht fact purely because we lost. Even how we lost, we STILL got to the friggin Super Bowl. Its like some want to simply believe that getting TO the Super Bowl is a simple task and happens to everyone.

I think the general point was you can have less talent (IE NE) and still get the Super Bowl and actually win it. Also, it depends on the kind of talent you have when making a run. I dont think one dimensional TE's are a necessity.

Northman
04-02-2015, 01:59 PM
Eh - I don't see us winning the Superbowl. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. I'm over Manning. And yes, I'd rather at this point move forward with the younger players and see what we have, and build a SB team that will contend year in and year out, ala the Seahawks.

Again, I hope I'm wrong and will gladly admit it if so.

I dont think we will win it either, but i understand the thought process. There really is no rush right now to throw Oz in or any other young QB. It will happen eventually one way or the other. Might as well utilize the time we have left with Manning if he's still able to play well.

BroncoWave
04-02-2015, 03:24 PM
And all of that talent got them what? I'm willing to sacrifice some talent for an attitude adjustment. Hopefully they bring in players who actually play like they care about whether they win or lose. I see what you're saying, but being one of, if not the, most talented teams in the NFL hasn't gotten them to the top.

Well I don't see the answer to that problem being to lower our talent level, but I guess we will find out.

BroncoWave
04-02-2015, 03:25 PM
I think the general point was you can have less talent (IE NE) and still get the Super Bowl and actually win it. Also, it depends on the kind of talent you have when making a run. I dont think one dimensional TE's are a necessity.

Yes, but they also have BB. We have nothing of the sort in the coaching department, IMO.

Northman
04-02-2015, 03:40 PM
Yes, but they also have BB. We have nothing of the sort in the coaching department, IMO.

And apparently having a lot of talent didnt compensate for that coaching either. So then what? The answer is you try different things to find the right chemistry to be able to put it together. Despite Rodgers being one of the best QB's in the game he's only been to the SB once in his prime. Its going to take the right combination of coaching and players to get another championship. Thats what makes BB great, he knows how to adapt with his roster.

BroncoWave
04-02-2015, 03:43 PM
And apparently having a lot of talent didnt compensate for that coaching either. So then what? The answer is you try different things to find the right chemistry to be able to put it together. Despite Rodgers being one of the best QB's in the game he's only been to the SB once in his prime. Its going to take the right combination of coaching and players to get another championship. Thats what makes BB great, he knows how to adapt with his roster.

And my point is that we don't necessarily have a coach like that.

Northman
04-02-2015, 04:09 PM
And my point is that we don't necessarily have a coach like that.

Based on what? What Kubes did in Houston? You do know that BB was not very good in Cleveland right? Im not saying Kubes will be BB but its really hard to make a declaration that he wont succeed right now when the guy has never coached in Denver before.

BroncoWave
04-02-2015, 05:10 PM
Based on what? What Kubes did in Houston? You do know that BB was not very good in Cleveland right? Im not saying Kubes will be BB but its really hard to make a declaration that he wont succeed right now when the guy has never coached in Denver before.

Where did I declare he won't succeed? You have a really bad habit of putting words in people's mouths North. I'm just saying he's probably no BB. Could he be? Anything is possible I guess, but I wouldn't put money on it.

Northman
04-02-2015, 05:13 PM
Where did I declare he won't succeed? You have a really bad habit of putting words in people's mouths North. I'm just saying he's probably no BB. Could he be? Anything is possible I guess, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I dont know man, sure sounds a lot like you have pretty much tanked it for the season judging by your posts lately. Frankly, i really dont understand it since we havent even gotten to the draft or even taken the field this year to see how the team will mesh but to each his own i guess. No worries, i wont piss anymore in your wheaties dude. \m/

BroncoWave
04-02-2015, 05:15 PM
I do think our odds of winning it all this season are very very slim, but I will still watch and enjoy all the games and root for the team. There is always a shot I suppose, but I just don't think it's much of one this year. But that's not to say I have lost all hope for the franchise or am jumping ship. Just skeptical, that's all.

Simple Jaded
04-02-2015, 05:24 PM
I do think our odds of winning it all this season are very very slim, but I will still watch and enjoy all the games and root for the team. There is always a shot I suppose, but I just don't think it's much of one this year. But that's not to say I have lost all hope for the franchise or am jumping ship. Just skeptical, that's all.

Kreckman was just talking about this, the last 3 seasons the Broncos have been the favorites and fell short, maybe the lower expectations are a good thing.

Tned
04-02-2015, 07:52 PM
A trip to the Super Bowl?

Lets not simply dismiss tht fact purely because we lost. Even how we lost, we STILL got to the friggin Super Bowl. Its like some want to simply believe that getting TO the Super Bowl is a simple task and happens to everyone.

Exactly. Not to mention, didn't we have something like seven starters on IR by the time the SB rolled around, and ran into a Seahawks team which was a juggernaut all year and peaking at the right time.

Tned
04-02-2015, 07:59 PM
And my point is that we don't necessarily have a coach like that.


Yes, but they also have BB. We have nothing of the sort in the coaching department, IMO.

We don't know what Kubiak will do with the Broncos, but at the moment, I will agree, we don't have a BB on the Broncos. However, trading Manning for JT, Moore and Knighton who nobody wanted, isn't going to make up for not having a BB.

If Manning is healthy, and playing like he did in 2013 or even the first half of 2014, the Broncos have a chance to compete, and possibly compete for it all (especially if Kubiak can add some creativity and not make it all about Manning's arm). If they had dumped Manning, they still wouldn't have a BB, and there is no reason to believe that JT, Moore and Knighton (all who were on the one and done team) would make the Broncos contenders, now or in the future.