Artist creates concept helmets

[Pudge]

http://thechive.com/2015/02/18/nfl-concept-helmets-put-a-new-spin-on-things-34-hq-photos/

Dylan Young redesigned all 32 teams helmets. Nothing too crazy but I love the Denver design

[Dapper Dan]

I saw them on Twitter and on Bleacher Report. Not too bad for concepts. I feel like most are pretty good.

[OrangeHoof]

Where do the Giants get off with Old Glory in the background? How did the Houston Oilers sneak back into the NFL? Chief fans probably will hate those ideas the most. Yellow helmets? The problem with the exploding logos on the helmets is how ugly some of them would look from the back.

[Dapper Dan]

Where do the Giants get off with Old Glory in the background? How did the Houston Oilers sneak back into the NFL? Chief fans probably will hate those ideas the most. Yellow helmets? The problem with the exploding logos on the helmets is how ugly some of them would look from the back.

Things usually look better from the back.

[TXBRONC]

I like it.

[Lancane]

Would be cool for Denver to return to the old D logo in a new fresh way.

[Ravage!!!]

I've seen these before.

The Browns helmets have never looked so good. But why did he change the logos of the Broncos, Dolphins, and Texans? That isn't our logo.

[Lancane]

I've seen these before.

The Browns helmets have never looked so good. But why did he change the logos of the Broncos, Dolphins, and Texans? That isn't our logo.

A lot of the new uniform designs being tested have had Denver returning to the old D or a combination of the new horsehead and the D. I think it's because the old D is more iconic and synonymous with Denver then the horsehead.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the new logo better than the old one.

:couch:

[Lancane]

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the new logo better than the old one.

:couch:

It's split HP, some like the old, some the new and some both. I like the new horsehead but I think it also represents the turning of the culture within the league, I enjoyed Bronco football more during the time of the D then I do today (honestly), because it's become an inflated, weak, shadow of it's former self. Give our two Super Bowl Championships not much great has happened with the Horsehead on the helm.

[Northman]

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the new logo better than the old one.

:couch:

Nah, i agree with you. I loved the changes when they were first made and still like them.

[Magnificent Seven]

It would be cool to see Peyton Manning in throwback uniforms with an old logo. I was wondering if we would see those throwback uniforms again? Last time, they wore in 1996.

[Valar Morghulis]

i like the concept of most of those helmets

[Shazam!]

The logos look hand drawn or something, not good. I like the idea tho

[Dapper Dan]

I've seen these before.

The Browns helmets have never looked so good. But why did he change the logos of the Broncos, Dolphins, and Texans? That isn't our logo.

That's the Dolphins new logo..

[Dapper Dan]

The logos look hand drawn or something, not good. I like the idea tho

I guess I have to disagree. I don't see what's wrong with the quality of the logos at all.

[TXBRONC]

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the new logo better than the old one.

:couch:

I like the one Denver is using now, but I also like the looks of the concept helmet.

[Pudge]

That's the Dolphins new logo..

Also I'm fairly sure that's the same Texans logo. I like the new logo, but I love the old logo.

[Ravage!!!]

That's the Dolphins new logo..

Yes and no. Meaning, the white down the middle of the dophin shouldn't be ORANGE because the helmet is orange. The white on the dophin helmet, now, isn't whit because the helmet is white, but because white makes sense to be on a dolphin. Changing it to 'fire orange' in the middle of the body of the dolphin isn't what the logo REALLY is.

Whomever did these got sloppy in several parts of their photoshopping. You can see overlays of where they Cut-n-pasted the helmet backrounds, against the brackets and facemasks. This was just a bad oversight on the artist's part, imo.

[Ravage!!!]

Also I'm fairly sure that's the same Texans logo. I like the new logo, but I love the old logo.

My bad. I was looking at the old Houston Oilers logo and thinking he changed the Houston logo back to the old one like he did Denver's.

[Dapper Dan]

Yes and no. Meaning, the white down the middle of the dophin shouldn't be ORANGE because the helmet is orange. The white on the dophin helmet, now, isn't whit because the helmet is white, but because white makes sense to be on a dolphin. Changing it to 'fire orange' in the middle of the body of the dolphin isn't what the logo REALLY is.

Whomever did these got sloppy in several parts of their photoshopping. You can see overlays of where they Cut-n-pasted the helmet backrounds, against the brackets and facemasks. This was just a bad oversight on the artist's part, imo.

So he changed the color?

[Valar Morghulis]

I thought that was the point of the redesign

[Dapper Dan]

I thought that was the point of the redesign

Yeah. And you also don't think DT is elite.

[Ravage!!!]

So he changed the color?

Changing anything on the logo, IS changing the logo...right? That's what I said, he changed the logo and then you disagreed with me. I don't want some "concept" artist redesigning logos or changing a franchise emblem. That's NOT what a concept artist does when talking about this area. If he was trying to redesign logos, then we would be having a different discussion.

[Ravage!!!]

I thought that was the point of the redesign

Actually... not in this case. He was redesigning helmets while using the teams current logos. He can concept redesigning logos if that's what he wants to do, but I don't like some bad artist messing with logos. Franchises are identified by their logos. Messing with logos. as he did in the dolphins case, simply makes you amateur. He might be amateur, but that doesn't mean I can't point it out that I don't like it.

[Dapper Dan]

Concept art is a serious business. Thank God that's not my field. Talk about pressure.

[Valar Morghulis]

people can think what they like mate. You are more than welcome to your opinion.

Since the artwork is going absolutely nowhere and no logos are actually changing as a result, i found the pictures interesting and worthy of discussion, i see no need to get to excited about he skills or motives of the artist/designer or whatever she should be called and berate his workmanship on the principle that "logos should not me altered"

I certainly dont care enough to argue about the semantics of redesign or concept art.

I like it - you dont. Fair enough

[Dapper Dan]

Changing anything on the logo, IS changing the logo...right? That's what I said, he changed the logo and then you disagreed with me. I don't want some "concept" artist redesigning logos or changing a franchise emblem. That's NOT what a concept artist does when talking about this area. If he was trying to redesign logos, then we would be having a different discussion.

In that case, he "changed" most of the logos. Naughty on his part. I'd write an angry letter.

[Ravage!!!]

people can think what they like mate. You are more than welcome to your opinion.

Since the artwork is going absolutely nowhere and no logos are actually changing as a result, i found the pictures interesting and worthy of discussion, i see no need to get to excited about he skills or motives of the artist/designer or whatever she should be called and berate his workmanship on the principle that "logos should not me altered"

I certainly dont care enough to argue about the semantics of redesign or concept art.

I like it - you dont. Fair enough

I didn't want to get into that discussion, either. I made a comment and Dapper felt he needed to attempt to correct me. If I'm going to be corrected, at least be right in your corrections.

:beer:

[Ravage!!!]

In that case, he "changed" most of the logos. Naughty on his part. I'd write an angry letter.

You do that Dapper.... you do that.

[Dapper Dan]

I didn't want to get into that discussion, either. I made a comment and Dapper felt he needed to attempt to correct me. If I'm going to be corrected, at least be right in your corrections.

:beer:

I'm sorry you felt insulted.

[Valar Morghulis]

I didn't want to get into that discussion, either. I made a comment and Dapper felt he needed to attempt to correct me. If I'm going to be corrected, at least be right in your corrections.

:beer:

:beer:

[olathebroncofan]

Why is there an oilers helmet?

[Ravage!!!]

Why is there an oilers helmet?

who knows. Seems the artist just wanted to throw anything out there that might stick.

[BroncoJoe]

Yes and no. Meaning, the white down the middle of the dophin shouldn't be ORANGE because the helmet is orange. The white on the dophin helmet, now, isn't whit because the helmet is white, but because white makes sense to be on a dolphin. Changing it to 'fire orange' in the middle of the body of the dolphin isn't what the logo REALLY is.

Whomever did these got sloppy in several parts of their photoshopping. You can see overlays of where they Cut-n-pasted the helmet backrounds, against the brackets and facemasks. This was just a bad oversight on the artist's part, imo.


Actually... not in this case. He was redesigning helmets while using the teams current logos. He can concept redesigning logos if that's what he wants to do, but I don't like some bad artist messing with logos. Franchises are identified by their logos. Messing with logos. as he did in the dolphins case, simply makes you amateur. He might be amateur, but that doesn't mean I can't point it out that I don't like it.

Or, the stripe on the dolphin is clear. In other words, it shows the color underneath. Their current helmet is white, the concept helmet is orange.

The stripe is see through!

[Pudge]

Holy cow, they are concepts. He didn't have any criteria to what he was trying to accomplish.. it was just fun and to see what other people think..

[MOtorboat]

A lot of the new uniform designs being tested have had Denver returning to the old D or a combination of the new horsehead and the D. I think it's because the old D is more iconic and synonymous with Denver then the horsehead.

Who is testing uniforms?

[Lancane]

Who is testing uniforms?

You know how Nike when they got the contract for new NFL uniforms came out with new designs for each team? They've continued to play with various designs and materials, they have even been approached to design others - some with different logos by certain franchises, including Denver and Cleveland but not sure it went anywhere or we would have heard. But there is talk that Nike is dangerously close to losing it's contract with the NFL at it's end and not be renewed.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12273991/is-nike-hold-nfl-college-football-uniforms-peril-uni-watch

Denver is suppose to be changing their overall look sometime in the near future, I hear that next off-season is very likely the right time frame, but who knows. Also look for UnderArmor and Addidas designers to start leaking designs that could interest league officials to seriously look at committing a switch. Some of these so-called renders could be from those companies to garner a response.

[Northman]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/984286_1634045390150244_4655082507091614991_n.jpg? oh=8c3604ad94ccb45a40011072156ebb35&oe=5596289C&__gda__=1434732245_301db2487d80ee7734bcaf09846176d 2

[Lancane]

According to what information has been given by those in the league that they expected more in the way of overall changes then Nike has done, some alterations were so minimal that the Nike had to explain the differences to those teams. What the league wanted was whole new looks for all 32 teams, but a lot of teams either did not like the changes or as I said they were minimal it didn't make the impact the league wanted. Nike will have to come up with something so look for the Broncos and Browns to have something soon or they'll likely be replaced by a more competent company. Nike has actually lost a couple long-time clients at the collegiate level, but it doesn't look good for Nike right now.

[DenBronx]

Id like to see a revamp of the whole NFL. I think that would be kinda cool.

[Northman]

Id like to see a revamp of the whole NFL. I think that would be kinda cool.

Same. In that last picture i really like that Charger helmet, the Bronco one is interesting but the Packers and Vikings dont look that great to me.

[DenBronx]

Lol that Packers one is awful!

[MileHighCrew]

I hate that Broncos helmet. In fairness I normally like concept helmets except for Denver's. It is ok to mess with other teams, but not the Broncos

[Lancane]

I hate that Broncos helmet. In fairness I normally like concept helmets except for Denver's. It is ok to mess with other teams, but not the Broncos

Most concepts I've seen has Denver returning to the iconic D in some manner which I am for. But if all reports are true, Denver has major changes on the way including the logo, so we'll soon see.

[MOtorboat]

According to what information has been given by those in the league that they expected more in the way of overall changes then Nike has done, some alterations were so minimal that the Nike had to explain the differences to those teams. What the league wanted was whole new looks for all 32 teams, but a lot of teams either did not like the changes or as I said they were minimal it didn't make the impact the league wanted. Nike will have to come up with something so look for the Broncos and Browns to have something soon or they'll likely be replaced by a more competent company. Nike has actually lost a couple long-time clients at the collegiate level, but it doesn't look good for Nike right now.

That's not true at all. From the article from Paul Lukas:

There's no reason to believe a change to Adidas or Under Armour would make much difference either, especially since the NFL has uniform rules that prevent things from getting too crazy: A team can change its uniforms only once in a five-year period; a team can have only one alternate or throwback uniform, which can be worn only twice per season; teams can have only one helmet shell; and so on. Faced with these constraints (not to mention the rather conservative visual preferences of team ownership dynasties like the Maras and the Rooneys), it's hard to envision any outfitter making a big difference in the league's look.

The league isn't unhappy about only minor changes and big changes aren't in store.

Denver cannot change until 2016.

[Valar Morghulis]

That's not true at all. From the article from Paul Lukas:

The league isn't unhappy about only minor changes and big changes aren't in store.

Denver cannot change until 2016.

I did not think Denver's switch to orange counted as a change that carried a 5 year time penalty.

[Lancane]

That's not true at all. From the article from Paul Lukas:

The league isn't unhappy about only minor changes and big changes aren't in store.

Denver cannot change until 2016.

First off Mo, one is an article about how the league is not likely to retain Nike who had a short term deal to begin with and shows the league has been extremely unhappy including the franchises with uniform issues and how the league wanted to create a mass change but only two or three teams did switch. Lukas' piece states 'it's hard to envision any outfitter making a big difference in the league's look.' That is opinionative only. And no one is saying that NFL franchises are going to go wacky and have five uniforms, NFL rules will not allow it, but Nike was hired to make changes and they failed to live up to that, between material and design issues to lack of creativity.

Denver and Cleveland have been rumored to be making design changes with the help of Nike designers, now the Browns are unveiling their new uniforms in April while their new colors and logos have been released as of the other day.

As for the Broncos Mo, when did I say that their change was this year, I said next year makes sense and I meant just that. With Manning likely to be leaving and it being the first official year that they can change according to the NFL rules (if they consider the shade of orange change substantial enough to be included). But this has been ongoing, we've pretty much been told that the change was coming but have had no confirmation and likely will not till after 2015.

[Traveler]

Broncos helmet is horrid! Never liked the old logo.

[Poet]

Nah, i agree with you. I loved the changes when they were first made and still like them.

Good design is good design. I really enjoy the fact that it's pretty easy to be able to get a lot of 'throwback' gear as well. If you don't like the newer stuff, you have access to what you did like, and if you like the new stuff it's that much more accessible.

[MOtorboat]

First off Mo, one is an article about how the league is not likely to retain Nike who had a short term deal to begin with and shows the league has been extremely unhappy including the franchises with uniform issues and how the league wanted to create a mass change but only two or three teams did switch. Lukas' piece states 'it's hard to envision any outfitter making a big difference in the league's look.' That is opinionative only. And no one is saying that NFL franchises are going to go wacky and have five uniforms, NFL rules will not allow it, but Nike was hired to make changes and they failed to live up to that, between material and design issues to lack of creativity.

Denver and Cleveland have been rumored to be making design changes with the help of Nike designers, now the Browns are unveiling their new uniforms in April while their new colors and logos have been released as of the other day.

As for the Broncos Mo, when did I say that their change was this year, I said next year makes sense and I meant just that. With Manning likely to be leaving and it being the first official year that they can change according to the NFL rules (if they consider the shade of orange change substantial enough to be included). But this has been ongoing, we've pretty much been told that the change was coming but have had no confirmation and likely will not till after 2015.

So you use Lukas' article to confirm that Denver may change its uniforms but you call it just opinion when he says big changes aren't in store?

And talk about big changes, did you see Cleveland's new helmet?

You are right, you didn't say what year. I did.

[Lancane]

So you use Lukas' article to confirm that Denver may change its uniforms but you call it just opinion when he says big changes aren't in store?

First off Mo, I said Lukas' statement was opinionative, not the whole article - why would I use one article of his to claim one thing and simply view another is insubstantial? He confirmed himself that the League wanted to change the look of all 32 teams but only a few actually made the switch, he’s also confirmed himself that several teams are unhappy with the material standards, the small unnoticeable changes, etc. Not that all teams are upset as far as I know nor has such been reported by any outlet. He’s also the one who said that Nike is close to losing the contract for various reasons, including that overall lack of what the league had hoped for from the deal.


And talk about big changes, did you see Cleveland's new helmet?

Yes, I did and your point? Did I once claim that Cleveland’s changes would be as drastic as say Seattle’s or Tampa’s? I said that a change was coming and depending on the overall outcome (IE material and style issues) like Denver’s possible own could effect the Nike contract if the two teams are unhappy in light of the other issues which is quite probable. I am of the opinion myself that we’ll see renderings so long as Nike has an unstable contract with the league, especially given that the league did want substantial changes to look of all 32 teams, per Lukas’ as well.


You are right, you didn't say what year. I did.

Really?


next off-season is very likely the right time frame, but who knows.

[MOtorboat]

First off Mo, I said Lukas' statement was opinionative, not the whole article - why would I use one article of his to claim one thing and simply view another is insubstantial? He confirmed himself that the League wanted to change the look of all 32 teams but only a few actually made the switch, he’s also confirmed himself that several teams are unhappy with the material standards, the small unnoticeable changes, etc. Not that all teams are upset as far as I know nor has such been reported by any outlet. He’s also the one who said that Nike is close to losing the contract for various reasons, including that overall lack of what the league had hoped for from the deal.

He never confirmed that. He predicted it would have very little effect on the league's overall uniforms.


When it was announced that the company would be taking over the league's uni responsibilities, many observers expected a wholesale makeover that would fundamentally alter the look of the NFL. But a certain uniform columnist always believed that Nike's effect on the league would be fairly minimal (scroll down to the "Looking Ahead to Next Season" section). At the risk of saying, "Told ya so," that uniform columnist has turned out to be right. Sure, a few teams' uniforms have been overhauled.

Why? Because the NFL has rules against repeated major uniform changes.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12273991/is-nike-hold-nfl-college-football-uniforms-peril-uni-watch

A team can change its uniforms only once in a five-year period; a team can have only one alternate or throwback uniform, which can be worn only twice per season; teams can have only one helmet shell; and so on. Faced with these constraints (not to mention the rather conservative visual preferences of team ownership dynasties like the Maras and the Rooneys), it's hard to envision any outfitter making a big difference in the league's look.

The NFL has 32 strong brands. They don't make sweeping changes like the college game.


Yes, I did and your point? Did I once claim that Cleveland’s changes would be as drastic as say Seattle’s or Tampa’s? I said that a change was coming and depending on the overall outcome (IE material and style issues) like Denver’s possible own could effect the Nike contract if the two teams are unhappy in light of the other issues which is quite probable. I am of the opinion myself that we’ll see renderings so long as Nike has an unstable contract with the league, especially given that the league did want substantial changes to look of all 32 teams, per Lukas’ as well.

You're claiming that teams are unhappy with the changes, and yet they are continually signing off on only minor changes, outside of two team redesigns by Nike (Jacksonville and Tampa, Seattle's uniforms were originally designed by Reebok). Again, whose renderings? The only thing we've ever seen are independent graphic artists, just like the original post in this thread.


Really?

My apologies. I missed that statement. Either way, Denver can't change uniforms until 2016 (actually now that I think about it, by rule it's 2017, because the change was 2012).

[Lancane]

He never confirmed that. He predicted it would have very little effect on the league's overall uniforms.

Okay, then it’s completely speculative on his and my own part.


Why? Because the NFL has rules against repeated major uniform changes.

The NFL has 32 strong brands. They don't make sweeping changes like the college game.

He did report that the NFL wanted a fresh look for all 32 teams, but I don’t believe he meant as vastly major changes either. I believe that the league was hoping to just take their brands and make them more palatable with the next generation of fans, not go outrageous as some of Nike’s so called designs were or had reportedly been.


You're claiming that teams are unhappy with the changes, and yet they are continually signing off on only minor changes, outside of two team redesigns by Nike (Jacksonville and Tampa, Seattle's uniforms were originally designed by Reebok).

They are per Lukas’ own reporting - several had cut, collar and material issues, some due to dye and so on. When the uniforms are provided by a single distributor the teams have to sign off one way or the other, they cannot tell the league to take a hike because they prefer Reebok’s old jerseys.


Again, whose renderings? The only thing we've ever seen are independent graphic artists, just like the original post in this thread.

I don’t believe every rendering out there is legitimate from designers of any particular company or firm and that many are in fact from independent graphical artists’ likely trying to get noticed, like the one from the original post. But I also know how certain firms work, don’t be surprised if some renderings are from designers who work for Adidas or UnderArmor trying to draw interest and possibly make a run at a contract that is soon to be up and according to Lukas’ hasn’t really been all that impressive within league.


My apologies. I missed that statement. Either way, Denver can't change uniforms until 2016 (actually now that I think about it, by rule it's 2017, because the change was 2012).

But does changing a simple shade of coloring count as enough change? That would be my only question regarding the Broncos’, because you could be right about it being 2017 but that is also when Nike’s contract expires correct?

As far as Denver’s likely changes I don’t believe they’ll be overly drastic either. While the D is iconic and many would be okay with it returning - I don’t see them changing away from horse head logo or a form of it to be absolutely honest. It’s more likely that it will be a combination of old and new, but I think the look of the Browns uniform will give us an idea in a way. Maybe some color alteration but it will not be extreme, the stripes on the side of the jerseys and pants could be one thing that we see change which is just my opinion of course.

[MOtorboat]

First, I don't remember Lukas reporting that the NFL wanted to change and update all uniforms. Maybe it was someone else. I think the point he was trying to make in the article we've been discussing is that the NFL may choose another option in 2016 because of collar issues in the initial Nike uniforms, collar issues that the Cowboys had with their blue numbering dye and the fact that the Eagles didn't get their green jerseys until November last year. Not because Nike hasn't made enough changes.

The league works for the teams, so I'm skeptical that Goodell and company went rogue on the NFL uniform contract with Nike and that out of rebellion against the contract teams haven't been approving more radical designs, which seems to be what you're suggesting Lancane.

As to why the Broncos wouldn't have to adhere to the same rules as the other 32 teams? I just don't understand why people would think they would be exempt. They had to go through all the proper channels to change them, why would they then be exempt from the uniform change rules?

The Browns have had to go through all of the proper channels just to apparently change the shade of their helmet.

[Dzone]

The old D is cool but that horse looks like something that got third place in a 6th grade art contest, those legs are not even right, but it does have nostalgia. maybe thats why its cool because its so goofy

[Pudge]

Good design is good design. I really enjoy the fact that it's pretty easy to be able to get a lot of 'throwback' gear as well. If you don't like the newer stuff, you have access to what you did like, and if you like the new stuff it's that much more accessible.

I wish I could find more yellow and brown Broncos great. It's hard to find anything that looks decent

[Lancane]

First, I don't remember Lukas reporting that the NFL wanted to change and update all uniforms. Maybe it was someone else. I think the point he was trying to make in the article we've been discussing is that the NFL may choose another option in 2016 because of collar issues in the initial Nike uniforms, collar issues that the Cowboys had with their blue numbering dye and the fact that the Eagles didn't get their green jerseys until November last year. Not because Nike hasn't made enough changes.

The league works for the teams, so I'm skeptical that Goodell and company went rogue on the NFL uniform contract with Nike and that out of rebellion against the contract teams haven't been approving more radical designs, which seems to be what you're suggesting Lancane.

As to why the Broncos wouldn't have to adhere to the same rules as the other 32 teams? I just don't understand why people would think they would be exempt. They had to go through all the proper channels to change them, why would they then be exempt from the uniform change rules?

The Browns have had to go through all of the proper channels just to apparently change the shade of their helmet.

I think it was Lukas - he stated that the league expected more from their partnership with Nike. But I could be wrong too and it was someone else, I readily admit that.

No, what I was saying is that once Nike had the contract that teams could not say 'screw this' and go with Adidas or Reebok over them, they had to use the same distributor as all other 32 teams per the contract. While Nike has reportedly created various designs (not substantiated) for the clubs that the amount of changes have to be approved by individual teams but that several did not accept the changes from the look of it, that is at least my opinion (not fact).

I'm not saying the Broncos don't have to adhere to the rules, I never once said that - I simply am wondering if a slight shade change effects that whatsoever.

By the way, the Browns' new uniforms are said to be refreshingly updated, guess we'll see in April.

[weazel]

Only Mo could find an argument in a fictitious new helmet thread

[Valar Morghulis]

I would love us to go back to the old orange and blue, with a helmet design combing the old D with the new horse.

Away Jersey, the old white

Third all navy blue.

I think that would alleviate the need for a throwback. And it would nicely combine the old and new.

I hope whatever they do, they don't come up with something completely new.

Change is scary and will probably lead to a global catastrophe - like gay marriage

[DenBronx]

Id like to see a matted blue then add a metallic orange to it.

[BroncoJoe]

Only Mo could find an argument in a fictitious new helmet thread

Uh, there's also another arguer involved, who has never been wrong. Ever.

[Lancane]

Uh, there's also another arguer involved, who has never been wrong. Ever.

Joe you wound me, never been wrong? I've been wrong plenty enough and have openly admitted such, earlier on here I said that Mo may have the right of it. Even you have proven me wrong before. I'm so hurt...

:bawling:


:throwrock:

[BroncoJoe]

Joe you wound me, never been wrong? I've been wrong plenty enough and have openly admitted such, earlier on here I said that Mo may have the right of it. Even you have proven me wrong before. I'm so hurt...

:bawling:


:throwrock:

Love ya, man.

Until I realized you're a flaming heart liberal degenerate. :)

:beer:

[ShaneFalco]

the guy just put on a ramp shader and changed the colors...

[sneakers]

I like them