Chris Harris: Osweiler is "like a young Joe Flacco"

[VonDoom]

We'd all sign for this right now, wouldn't we?


Harris, meanwhile, said he had “a lot of confidence” in Osweiler, a 6-8, 240-pound Arizona State product.

“He’s kind of like a young Joe Flacco,” Harris said of Osweiler. “He has that arm. I think him and (Broncos head coach Gary) Kubiak, I think they’re going to fit perfect together. With the way he ran the offense with the Ravens with Joe Flacco, I see Brock as a similar quarterback.”

The rest: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/30/chris-harris-optimistic-on-mannings-return-has-faith-in-osweiler/

DT is also pretty confident about Os (from the same article all the juicy stuff came from):


And if Manning hangs it up and the Broncos have to turn things over to Brock Osweiler? Thomas says Osweiler will be ready.

"I’ve got all the confidence in the world in Brock," Thomas said. "He hasn’t been around the best quarterback in the game the past two years for nothing. As the years go on, he builds and builds and is more confident. You see him against our first-team defense during the season, and they’ll be going hard, and he’s out there calm and collected. I think he’ll be fine."

The rest: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/demaryius-thomas-thinks-some-broncos-teammates-underestimated-colts-221131155.html

[Ravage!!!]

I personally don't think Flacco is very good. But I personally think the "Flacco" comparisons come into effect because they are both So tall. To be honest, I think too tall (I know, i didn't even know that was a problem until they did an entire article on it regarding Flacco and other tall QBs). Flacco has gone to the special off season workouts with schools to work on compensating for his hight and mobility with tht height, so I will give Flacco lots of credit for that.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I personally don't think Flacco is very good. But I personally think the "Flacco" comparisons come into effect because they are both So tall. To be honest, I think too tall (I know, i didn't even know that was a problem until they did an entire article on it regarding Flacco and other tall QBs). Flacco has gone to the special off season workouts with schools to work on compensating for his hight and mobility with tht height, so I will give Flacco lots of credit for that.

Manning and Rothelisburger?

[Ravage!!!]

Manning and Rothelisburger?

I'm just going over what the entire article was about. Take that for what you will.

Plus Os is taller than both of them. 2" is a lot when it comes to height.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm just going over what the entire article was about. Take that for what you will.

Gotcha, I would think a lack of dexterity would be the issue, but that doesn't really apply to Oz, or Flacco for that matter. I don't remember, maybe it did in the beginning of his career.

[tomjonesrocks]

Even if Manning comes back I expect to see a lot more of Oz next season and don't think that's a bad thing. Manning is no longer the injury-resistant outlier he used to be, and what good did 12-4 do the team anyway if you're beat to shit when you get there?

We shall see.

[Ravage!!!]

Gotcha, I would think a lack of dexterity would be the issue, but that doesn't really apply to Oz, or Flacco for that matter. I don't remember, maybe it did in the beginning of his career.

I think they were talking about QBs over 6'5"... has been pretty poor in NFl's history. Although its just 2", there seems to be "something" about getting too tall. Don't know. I know Flacco went out and searched for some additional training to work on certain things because of his height. I say "article".. but it was a video "expose'" of some sorts. Was a few years back, though.

[Jsteve01]

Gotcha, I would think a lack of dexterity would be the issue, but that doesn't really apply to Oz, or Flacco for that matter. I don't remember, maybe it did in the beginning of his career.

I think they were talking about QBs over 6'5"... has been pretty poor in NFl's history. Although its just 2", there seems to be "something" about getting too tall. Don't know. I know Flacco went out and searched for some additional training to work on certain things because of his height. I say "article".. but it was a video "expose'" of some sorts. Was a few years back, though. not a pure science by any means. I've heard all kinds of ridiculous assertions that the reading for not liking shorter qbs. You have an extremely small sample group of guys that tall and only Ryan Leaf was a top pick. That to me is the real issue. There haven't been top talents coming out at that height.

[Ravage!!!]

not a pure science by any means. I've heard all kinds of ridiculous assertions that the reading for not liking shorter qbs. You have an extremely small sample group of guys that tall and only Ryan Leaf was a top pick. That to me is the real issue. There haven't been top talents coming out at that height.

Agreed. I remember talking about the expose when it came out, but now I'm fadey on the details. I just remember thinking about that expose when we drafted a 6'7" QB. Flacco is the only one that tall.

As far as Oz.. I'm hoping for the best for him. Seems to be a pretty decent kid and has had the benefit (or not, depending on how you look at it) of playing with this team and Manning for 3 years now. Normally, I'm not excited for a QB to sit for 4 years, as I think that's too long and that means 4 seasons sitting without getting any 'real' playtime. That's a college career. Hopefully we can see more of Oz play soon.

[slim]

Too tall...lol

[Ravage!!!]

Too tall...lol

THere is some merit. Players can be too tall for many positions. Obviously it comes down to the individual, but its not like there aren't aguments for it.... obviously there are, otherwise Flacco (himself) wouldn't have talked about having to deal with it.

[BroncoWave]

I would consider the pick of Osweiler a raging success if he wound up being as good as Flacco. Not an elite guy, but good enough to get hot for a few games and potentially get you to a super bowl. Can't ask for much more from a second round pick.

[Northman]

Hopefully we will get to see what he has to offer. Glad the guys are confident in him though.

[TXBRONC]

Flacco is a franchise quarterback but he's not elite.

[Bronco9798]

Even if Manning comes back I expect to see a lot more of Oz next season and don't think that's a bad thing. Manning is no longer the injury-resistant outlier he used to be, and what good did 12-4 do the team anyway if you're beat to shit when you get there?

We shall see.

As long as Manning is QB on this team, I don't think you will see "a lot of" Oz at QB. If you're suggesting due to injury, that may be true. But most games are close enough going into the 4th qtr that Manning will never come out. And it would have to be a really huge lead.

[DenBronx]

Flacco is a franchise quarterback but he's not elite.

Seems like some of these franchise QBs are winning SBs unlike our elite one.

[Lancane]

Seems like some of these franchise QBs are winning SBs unlike our elite one.

Flacco has also been putting up elite numbers with the right cast and offense, just as Cutler did when he was in Denver.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Flacco has been elite in the playoffs.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Flacco has been elite in the playoffs.

In fact I'll go so far as to say in the last five years there hasn't been a better qb in the playoffs. He plays better in the playoffs than Manning

[Northman]

Seems like some of these franchise QBs are winning SBs unlike our elite one.

Yep. If you got a solid group around a franchise QB it can pay dividends.

[Northman]

Flacco has been elite in the playoffs.

Which is really the only important time to be.

[MasterShake]

Flacco is incredible in the playoffs, so I'd love that comparison to be true. I would like to see how Brock does in a Kubiak offense, like after a 1st down gash by CJ Anderson of 8 yards Brock rolls out in a bootleg on 2nd and 2 and hits Sanders in stride for a TD. Really looking forward to preseason this year to see the new schemes. I'm really tired of the trips right and left and bubble screens.

[Simple Jaded]

They (I) said a 5-10 QB couldn't make it in the NFL too, I'd rather have the too tall problem to overcome.

[Lancane]

They (I) said a 5-10 QB couldn't make it in the NFL too, I'd rather have the too tall problem to overcome.

Especially when that too tall problem has a rocket for an arm!

[MasterShake]

Especially when that too tall problem has a rocket for an arm!

I think you mean, a "Brock-et!" hahahahahaha! Oh god I hate the offseason...

[Jsteve01]

They (I) said a 5-10 QB couldn't make it in the NFL too, I'd rather have the too tall problem to overcome.Not to rub it in but I remember debating Wilson with you prior to the draft and I'm with you. Much rather have the problem of an athletic dude that's too tall than one that's a midget. I just see such a small sample group that I don't buy the too tall arguments

[Lancane]

Not to rub it in but I remember debating Wilson with you prior to the draft and I'm with you. Much rather have the problem of an athletic dude that's too tall than one that's a midget. I just see such a small sample group that I don't buy the too tall arguments

And we've seen too tall find success without all the right weapons, Flacco, Big Ben, Manning compared to Wilson who is Dough Flutie with legs.

[Simple Jaded]

Not to rub it in but I remember debating Wilson with you prior to the draft and I'm with you. Much rather have the problem of an athletic dude that's too tall than one that's a midget. I just see such a small sample group that I don't buy the too tall arguments

Wilson is every bit as good as a Pro as he was in college, that's impressive for a 6-4 QB.

[Hawgdriver]

Flacco is a franchise quarterback but he's not elite.

Yeah, and I'd be fine with him as the dude if it was my team. We can only hope Oz is that kind of dude.

[dogfish]

so, is harris saying that he can't outrun oz?

[Jsteve01]

so, is harris saying that he can't outrun oz? I think, you Jaded, and I beat that one to death. He's earned a reprieve

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think, you Jaded, and I beat that one to death. He's earned a reprieve

Nah, he'll never outrun that joke. :D

[dogfish]

Nah, he'll never outrun that joke. :D

lol, well played. . .

[Simple Jaded]

If only Harris were as quick as AW4M's wit.

[dogfish]

If only Harris were as quick as AW4M's wit.

:lol:

[sneakers]

he very tall

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

he very tall

Let's get back to the running joke.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, and I'd be fine with him as the dude if it was my team. We can only hope Oz is that kind of dude.

Brian Bilick once said elite quarterbacks are franchise quarterbacks but not all franchise quarterbacks are elite. You can win both and build your offense around both but the difference is a franchise quarterback needs more pieces around him than elite quarterback does.

[Lancane]

Brian Bilick once said elite quarterbacks are franchise quarterbacks but not all franchise quarterbacks are elite. You can win both and build your offense around both but the difference is a franchise quarterback needs more pieces around him than elite quarterback does.

Problem is TX that too many players get categorized as elite, when they are simply great, or great when they are only good. Part of the problem is the Pro-Bowl becomes a measuring pole despite the inefficiency of the voting - the AP All Pro is a better tool, but even then and per position there tends to only be three or four players who should be considered elitist, in some fewer at others a couple more. Denver is not riddled with elite talent, but we have a lot good to great talent at certain positions and a couple elite, but then we also know how fans believe so deeply that a player is something he is not, or is more then he is. I have just resigned myself that sometimes it's pointless to argue overmuch because nothing will deter their point of view.

When I look at those quarterbacks that I'd give that elitist status, we're talking Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers and Andrew Luck. Those I consider Great Quarterbacks would be Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Nick Foles and Ryan Tannehill. Those I consider Good Quarterbacks: Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton and Derek Carr. And I consider all of them Franchise Quarterbacks, teams can win with them... And yes, I know I did not mention Russell Wilson, but in my opinion he is one of those on the border, he's a solid quarterback but in truth he is a Playmaker more then that, not a franchise quarterback, were talking the likes of Jake Plummer, Colin Kaepernick, Jim McMahon, Randall Cunningham and so on, they can put up franchise numbers, but they need a complete team to win, they're the ones that defy the odds and always seem to make things happen (If Tebow only had an arm he'd have been in this category)...but I don't consider them franchise quarterbacks in the same sense.

[Simple Jaded]

I think "great" is better than "elite", Muhammad Ali didn't say "I'm the Elitest of all time", John Elway is the G.O.A.T, not the E.O.A.T.

[Lancane]

I think "great" is better than "elite", Muhammad Ali didn't say "I'm the Elitest of all time", John Elway is the G.O.A.T, not the E.O.A.T.

Different spectrum of the wording Jaded, it's not the term Great, but Great(est) which is key, it changes the terminology. Elite: the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. Great: wonderful; first-rate; very good. See the distinction? Greatest means above all, I got the Greatest Portion, that is the Greatest Award anyone can win, he is the Greatest of All Time. Don't get stupid with it, it's simply standard English.

;)

[Cugel]

Harris, meanwhile, said he had “a lot of confidence” in Osweiler, a 6-8, 240-pound Arizona State product.

“He’s kind of like a young Joe Flacco,” Harris said of Osweiler. “He has that arm. I think him and (Broncos head coach Gary) Kubiak, I think they’re going to fit perfect together. With the way he ran the offense with the Ravens with Joe Flacco, I see Brock as a similar quarterback.”

Uh-oh. He'd better not say that "Brock Osweiler has as strong an arm as Joe Montana" because we all know where that leads. . . .

Personally, I'd love to think that Osweiler is going to be another Joe Flacco. There's only a 1% chance that's true, but they might as well find out before beginning the inevitable decade long search for a QB again, just like under Shanahan after Elway and then McMoron and then the first year of Fox. . . .

The problem is that there really are only a handful of "elite" QBs, guys who give you a chance to win the SB every year, because they never have a bad regular season: Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Tom Brady. That's it.

Then there are "franchise QBs" who can be elite in the playoffs but are Not consistent. They have great years and suck years: Eli Manning, Joe Flacco (who threw more interceptions in 2013 than TDs, but came back and had a good year this season), Phillip Rivers (won a playoff game again in 2013 after looking like he was washed up), Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Cam Newton. I would not include Nick Foles in this category because the word out of Philly is that the Eagles are trying to move up in the draft to get Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota, because they don't like what they were seeing with Nick Foles before his injury and are not convinced he's their QB of the future.

You can win any given year with elite QBs like Tom Brady, but the rest of the team needs to be playing at an elite level to do it. Most years of course they're not. And of course, even your elite QB can be beaten in the playoffs (as Peyton was in 2014 SB).

You can win it all with a Franchise QB like Eli Manning or Ben Roethlisberger but they've both had some down years as has Flacco (just after he signed his ginormous contract). If the rest of your team is ready to win while your QB is having a suck year, well . . . . too bad, and better luck next year. So, with a Franchise QB you need to coincide the team peaking at the same time your QB is having a great year, which is obviously harder to do.

Unfortunately, that makes only about 10 or 12 QBs who give their teams a CHANCE to win the SB, which means that approximately 22 teams have NO CHANCE in any given season. Some years of course there might only be 6 or 8 teams with a chance and 24 teams with no shot, because you have, say, Eli Manning and he's having a suck season like he did in 2013.

Then that leaves a bunch of teams like Buffalo who have some nice players, great defensive line, good team defense, some interesting players on offense, etc. A good team all around, but they had Kyle Orton as their QB so, no shot. This year they will have E.J. Manuel so they still have no shot.

The problem for Denver is that Tom Brady is still elite, Andrew Luck will only get better and better until he is the unchallenged best QB in football, so to win Denver will have to beat those teams, probably on the road. With Brock Osweiler that will be tough, even if the rest of the team plays better than it did this year.

[Simple Jaded]

Different spectrum of the wording Jaded, it's not the term Great, but Great(est) which is key, it changes the terminology. Elite: the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. Great: wonderful; first-rate; very good. See the distinction? Greatest means above all, I got the Greatest Portion, that is the Greatest Award anyone can win, he is the Greatest of All Time. Don't get stupid with it, it's simply standard English.

;)


You should know better than to underestimate my capacity for stupid.

[TXBRONC]

You should know better than to underestimate my capacity for stupid.

Dirty Harry would tell you a man has to know his limitation.

[Lancane]

Another problem for Denver is that they are facing probably their worst off-season under John Elway. Now while I credit Elway with being solid at his job, he's been more effective in Free Agency then the Draft which could lead the team in the wrong direction and quicker then some on here realize. The drive to win is one thing, but being compulsively obsessive about it can cause more harm then good. Bill Parcells and Urban Meyer both know this, Bill Belichick learned the hard way - he tried to use free agency twice to win and they lost, he returned to his roots and they are World Champions (again) and it cost Mike Shanahan as well. While you need to add some pieces via Free Agency you need to use the Draft more effectively. Denver at this point is set to spend more then 70 million on free agents on the roster, the 7 of our top 10 paid players for 2015 are from Free Agency.

Peyton Manning will make 21.5 million in 2015, during a regime switch which will see a new offense and defense installed, chances are about 15/1 that we'll make it to the Super Bowl, when at this stage it is probably smarter to move in a more youthful, long-term direction. People love to say "In Elway We Trust", they won't for long if the team is ill prepared for the next step because he's holding on too hard to the notion of win and win now. Since drafting Von Miller Denver has drafted how many long-term starters?

Problem is that the fan base is in a win now mode as well, not looking beyond to see the horizon may be black.

[Jsteve01]

Another problem for Denver is that they are facing probably their worst off-season under John Elway. Now while I credit Elway with being solid at his job, he's been more effective in Free Agency then the Draft which could lead the team in the wrong direction and quicker then some on here realize. The drive to win is one thing, but being compulsively obsessive about it can cause more harm then good. Bill Parcells and Urban Meyer both know this, Bill Belichick learned the hard way - he tried to use free agency twice to win and they lost, he returned to his roots and they are World Champions (again) and it cost Mike Shanahan as well. While you need to add some pieces via Free Agency you need to use the Draft more effectively. Denver at this point is set to spend more then 70 million on free agents on the roster, the 7 of our top 10 paid players for 2015 are from Free Agency.

Peyton Manning will make 21.5 million in 2015, during a regime switch which will see a new offense and defense installed, chances are about 15/1 that we'll make it to the Super Bowl, when at this stage it is probably smarter to move in a more youthful, long-term direction. People love to say "In Elway We Trust", they won't for long if the team is ill prepared for the next step because he's holding on too hard to the notion of win and win now. Since drafting Von Miller Denver has drafted how many long-term starters?

Problem is that the fan base is in a win now mode as well, not looking beyond to see the horizon may be black. ten years ago I would have agreed with you, but in today's league with the rookie wage scale and well written contracts you can balance free agency and the draft much more effectively. Of the deals written last year, all were below fair market but Talib's and his can be torn up after year two. Our cap guy is a guru.

Another thing that was lost in the debates about Fox was his propensity to bury young guys on the bench and many in the building stated frustration over his lack of effort in developing young talent. I'm excited to see what teachers like wade, Dennison, and kubes do with our young guns

Th pats don't win the super bowl without revis, browner, and lafell all ofwhim were relatively big name free agents

[TXBRONC]

ten years ago I would have agreed with you, but in today's league with the rookie wage scale and well written contracts you can balance free agency and the draft much more effectively. Of the deals written last year, all were below fair market but Talib's and his can be torn up after year two. Our cap guy is a guru.

Another thing that was lost in the debates about Fox was his propensity to bury young guys on the bench and many in the building stated frustration over his lack of effort in developing young talent. I'm excited to see what teachers like wade, Dennison, and kubes do with our young guns

Th pats don't win the super bowl without revis, browner, and lafell all ofwhim were relatively big name free agents

This, the rookie wage scale along with well written/negotiated contracts does make it easier manage the cap. Elway and his front office staff seem adept at managing it.

[Lancane]

ten years ago I would have agreed with you, but in today's league with the rookie wage scale and well written contracts you can balance free agency and the draft much more effectively. Of the deals written last year, all were below fair market but Talib's and his can be torn up after year two. Our cap guy is a guru.

Another thing that was lost in the debates about Fox was his propensity to bury young guys on the bench and many in the building stated frustration over his lack of effort in developing young talent. I'm excited to see what teachers like wade, Dennison, and kubes do with our young guns

Th pats don't win the super bowl without revis, browner, and lafell all ofwhim were relatively big name free agents

The Broncos are not balanced though, as I stated 7 out of our top 10 paid players are from Free Agency, only one drafted under Elway. Actually, Denver under Elway has cut more of his drafted players then most others do in the league, on average he has cut two drafted players each year. Like most Broncos' fans I love Elway and think he is the Greatest Quarterback in History, but he is a man and not a God, and man is prone to mistakes, it's human nature. Elway's fatal flaw is obvious, he is obsessed with winning, not that it's completely bad - but that also blinds someone to making the right choices, their vision is tunneled.

New England uses lower end free agents more then high end, Tom Brady is due to make 14 million this season, not 21.5 like Manning...so they can spread more around and keep a competitive team. Revis got a one year deal, to stay long term his contract would need to be less then Talib's here but Revis is a better corner. Denver just made Harris the highest paid number two cornerback in the league with a staggering 5 year 42.5 million dollar contract which is near double Browner's salary. So while you consider our Cap guy to be a Guru, I see that Denver is set to hit fiscal hell on the road we're taking. And with Talib making the Pro-Bowl this year and if he doesn't again next year, do you see the team being able to part with him easily? You think our Cap guy is a Guru, but take a deeper look at you'll see Denver is close to falling into a fiscal puddle. Yes, New England uses free agency as well, is most of their starters from Free Agency? What about Seattle or Baltimore?

Denver doesn't really have a choice but to develop some of the youth, our cap is near next to nothing once we pay Manning and D. Thomas, we'll have little room and they will not be able to bring in top quality free agents like Ward, Manning, Ware, Talib and Vasquez, they'll have to target more players like Knighton and Austin who need a second chance or Band-Aid players like Clark, Ramirez, Adams and so on.

[Lancane]

This, the rookie wage scale along with well written/negotiated contracts does make it easier manage the cap. Elway and his front office staff seem adept at managing it.

I would beg to differ, the contracts are smartly written, but not wisely given.

[weazel]

what are they supposed to say? "yeah I think we're ******! Dude throws like Tebow and scrambles like Bledsoe!"

[Cugel]

Another problem for Denver is that they are facing probably their worst off-season under John Elway. Now while I credit Elway with being solid at his job, he's been more effective in Free Agency then the Draft which could lead the team in the wrong direction and quicker then some on here realize. The drive to win is one thing, but being compulsively obsessive about it can cause more harm then good. Bill Parcells and Urban Meyer both know this, Bill Belichick learned the hard way - he tried to use free agency twice to win and they lost, he returned to his roots and they are World Champions (again) and it cost Mike Shanahan as well. While you need to add some pieces via Free Agency you need to use the Draft more effectively. Denver at this point is set to spend more then 70 million on free agents on the roster, the 7 of our top 10 paid players for 2015 are from Free Agency.

Peyton Manning will make 21.5 million in 2015, during a regime switch which will see a new offense and defense installed, chances are about 15/1 that we'll make it to the Super Bowl, when at this stage it is probably smarter to move in a more youthful, long-term direction. People love to say "In Elway We Trust", they won't for long if the team is ill prepared for the next step because he's holding on too hard to the notion of win and win now. Since drafting Von Miller Denver has drafted how many long-term starters?

Problem is that the fan base is in a win now mode as well, not looking beyond to see the horizon may be black.

Hell, NO! It is NOT "smarter to move in a long-term direction" any more than it was to move on from John Elway to Brian Griese.

"Win now with Peyton" is better than the alternative, which is hope Brock Osweiler is not the next Brian Brohme or Chad Henne (guys who were drafted at #56-#57. Because that's what you normally get with a late 2nd or later round QB. 118 guys drafted since Tom Brady, and 1 Russell Wilson and a bunch of stiffs.

We WANT Elway to be unrealistic, that's his job. But, to pretend that it's smart to "move on" from Peyton to Brock is just idiotic. The odds are wildly against that "youth move" panning out.

I say that if Peyton is 70% of what he was, that's still 70% of a first ballot Hall of Fame QB. And that is almost certainly better than Brock Osweiler will ever be. Just statistically speaking.

Because in hindsight it reality might be: "we have no chance at all because Peyton is shot, and Brock turned out to be another Brian Griese, and we don't have a Franchise QB and no one is coming to town for the next 5 years."

I don't care listen to that crap that we "need to see what we've got with Brock Osweiler." We don't need that at all. That's just wild optimism not at all grounded in reality, like getting really, really excited about betting the house, the kids and the family dog on #17 red in roulette in Vegas.

The Brock Osweiler era will be on us soon enough and everybody will get to watch the annual "search for a QB" for the next ten years. How stupid are those fans going to look if it turns out that Brock isn't any good, and you threw away at least a chance with Peyton?

And before you say that "Brock might be great, you don't know." We won't know for sure until he gets the starting job, but "history says that's not the way to bet." Period. :coffee:

And if you've got an alternative, you don't have to be in a rush to look behind door #3 where Carol Merrill is standing - and when you open door #3 it's 100 cans of tinned squid.

[TXBRONC]

Hell, NO! It is NOT "smarter to move in a long-term direction" any more than it was to move on from John Elway to Brian Griese.

"Win now with Peyton" is better than the alternative, which is hope Brock Osweiler is not the next Brian Brohme or Chad Henne (guys who were drafted at #56-#57. Because that's what you normally get with a late 2nd or later round QB. 118 guys drafted since Tom Brady, and 1 Russell Wilson and a bunch of stiffs.

We WANT Elway to be unrealistic, that's his job. But, to pretend that it's smart to "move on" from Peyton to Brock is just idiotic. The odds are wildly against that "youth move" panning out.

I say that if Peyton is 70% of what he was, that's still 70% of a first ballot Hall of Fame QB. And that is almost certainly better than Brock Osweiler will ever be. Just statistically speaking.

Because in hindsight it reality might be: "we have no chance at all because Peyton is shot, and Brock turned out to be another Brian Griese, and we don't have a Franchise QB and no one is coming to town for the next 5 years."

I don't care listen to that crap that we "need to see what we've got with Brock Osweiler." We don't need that at all. That's just wild optimism not at all grounded in reality, like getting really, really excited about betting the house, the kids and the family dog on #17 red in roulette in Vegas.

The Brock Osweiler era will be on us soon enough and everybody will get to watch the annual "search for a QB" for the next ten years. How stupid are those fans going to look if it turns out that Brock isn't any good, and you threw away at least a chance with Peyton?

And before you say that "Brock might be great, you don't know." We won't know for sure until he gets the starting job, but "history says that's not the way to bet." Period. :coffee:

And if you've got an alternative, you don't have to be in a rush to look behind door #3 where Carol Merrill is standing - and when you open door #3 it's 100 cans of tinned squid.

If Manning retires and Denver goes with Osweiler feel free to be a fatalist. I choose to wait and see how it pans out rather trying tell everyone I'm only one with the correct answers.

[Cugel]

If Manning retires and Denver goes with Osweiler feel free to be a fatalist. I choose to wait and see how it pans out rather trying tell I'm only one with the correct answers.

Screw that "fatalistic" crap! I'm a REALIST! There's a DIFFERENCE! One is based on "hope" and one is based on "reality." Reality = History and Statistics.

Hope - that's how Vegas gets those Billion $ casinos. Because people who are math challenged go to Vegas and bet on #17 red. And then they get all excited about "their chance to win big!"

I look at the actual HISTORY of the last 15 years and see that there's 1 QB drafted as late as #57 who was any good and then look at the list of all the busts and disappointments. And I conclude based on reality, that there's about a 1% chance that Brock Osweiler is going to be a Super Bowl winning QB and about 117 chances that he's not.

I'm sorry if that punctures the illusion of hope that some fans have.

I certainly "hope" Brock Osweiler is great. It would be awesome if he were a Super Bowl caliber QB. I'd cheer just as loudly as you any day of the week!

But, is it likely enough to happen that I'm going to suspend my belief in reality and get all excited about the "possibility"? No.

And it's flat idiotic to say "get rid of Peyton Manning", who has actually won a SB, in order to "see what we've got with Brock Osweiler" who has about a 1% chance of ever winning a SB.

I don't know what the odds are with Peyton, but they've got to be better than 1%.

[TXBRONC]

Screw that "fatalistic" crap! I'm a REALIST! There's a DIFFERENCE! One is based on "hope" and one is based on "reality." Reality = History and Statistics.

Hope - that's how Vegas gets those Billion $ casinos. Because people who are math challenged go to Vegas and bet on #17 red. And then they get all excited about "their chance to win big!"

I look at the actual HISTORY of the last 15 years and see that there's 1 QB drafted as late as #57 who was any good and then look at the list of all the busts and disappointments. And I conclude based on reality, that there's about a 1% chance that Brock Osweiler is going to be a Super Bowl winning QB and about 117 chances that he's not.

I'm sorry if that punctures the illusion of hope that some fans have.

I certainly "hope" Brock Osweiler is great. It would be awesome if he were a Super Bowl caliber QB. I'd cheer just as loudly as you any day of the week!

But, is it likely enough to happen that I'm going to suspend my belief in reality and get all excited about the "possibility"? No.

I understand what the history is, I also know that history doesn't write the future.

[Cugel]

I understand what the history is, I also know that history doesn't write the future.

Take that attitude to Vegas and you'll be returning with just your shorts! :laugh:

We can statistically gauge the probability of future events by looking at how often they've happened in the past. If one QB drafted after the first 35 picks or so manages to win the SB at least once over a span of 15 seasons, that's relevant to how likely it is to happen again.

That's reality. Can it happen with Brock? Of course. Is that the way to bet? No.

So, faced with a choice "roll with Peyton until that horse dies" or "let's see what we've got with Brock" the only smart choice is "roll with Peyton."

Because even if he's not the player he was even 2 seasons ago, he's still almost certainly (99% probability) better than Brock.

[TXBRONC]

Take that attitude to Vegas and you'll be returning with just your shorts! :laugh:

We can statistically gauge the probability of future events by looking at how often they've happened in the past. If one QB drafted after the first 35 picks or so manages to win the SB at least once over a span of 15 seasons, that's relevant to how likely it is to happen again.

That's reality. Can it happen with Brock? Of course. Is that the way to bet? No.

So, faced with a choice "roll with Peyton until that horse dies" or "let's see what we've got with Brock" the only smart choice is "roll with Peyton."

Because even if he's not the player he was even 2 seasons ago, he's still almost certainly (99% probability) better than Brock.

We're talking past each other. You're writing off the season and the next ten years if Manning retires and I'm not.

[Cugel]

We're talking past each other. You're writing off the season and the next ten years if Manning retires and I'm not.

I'm not "writing off" the next ten years. I'm basing an analysis on history and saying "Whoa there! Not so fast!"

If Peyton retires there's NO choice. It's "Brock or bust" right?

"There is no plan B. We're going plan A." At least for 1 season.

But, if you have a choice, then stick with Peyton and try and convince him to come back.

What I object to is all the idiotic nonsense about "Peyton's washed up. Let's see what we have in Brock." Well, we probably don't have anything in Brock, so let's not be in such a rush to open that particular door.

Some fans are just too mesmerized by shiny objects. "Oooh! Shiny new! Let's take a look!"

[Lancane]

Hell, NO! It is NOT "smarter to move in a long-term direction" any more than it was to move on from John Elway to Brian Griese.

Elway retired, we had to move on, so that is an asinine statement, at best. Look at Green Bay, they had to move on from Brett Favre as well, he was not the same quarterback and were rewarded with another Lombardi. And I am not saying Osweiler is another Favre, Luck, Brees or Young, but sometimes you need to move past iconic quarterbacks for the sake of the organization.


"Win now with Peyton" is better than the alternative, which is hope Brock Osweiler is not the next Brian Brohme or Chad Henne (guys who were drafted at #56-#57. Because that's what you normally get with a late 2nd or later round QB. 118 guys drafted since Tom Brady, and 1 Russell Wilson and a bunch of stiffs.

So ride the horse to death because it’s from a better stock instead of seeing if the new horse is of any quality? So even if we go with Manning to a winning record for one more year, it’s better because? We’ll still have to ride that new horse or another the following year.


We WANT Elway to be unrealistic, that's his job. But, to pretend that it's smart to "move on" from Peyton to Brock is just idiotic. The odds are wildly against that "youth move" panning out.

Really? Do you really want to discuss the ages of quarterbacks that have been winning championships? Brady is the oldest quarterback to win a Lombardi of this decade. And he doesn’t disappear in the Post-Season and cost 21.5 million either.


I say that if Peyton is 70% of what he was, that's still 70% of a first ballot Hall of Fame QB. And that is almost certainly better than Brock Osweiler will ever be. Just statistically speaking.

This is about the dumbest statement I’ve heard in this argument. It’s not about who is better, it’s about what is better for the organization as a whole. One more winning season (which statistically speaking will lead nowhere) or ten more, because Manning is not going to be here in three years, four years, five years, six years...as I said, ride a horse till it’s dead, we already did it till he’s lame.


Because in hindsight it reality might be: "we have no chance at all because Peyton is shot, and Brock turned out to be another Brian Griese, and we don't have a Franchise QB and no one is coming to town for the next 5 years."

So you are making my argument for me?

That is why we have to move on, so we are not in the dumps for five or six seasons. It’s not about Manning or Osweiler, it’s about the team and one winning season doesn’t make or break a franchise, turning into the Cleveland Browns does.


I don't care listen to that crap that we "need to see what we've got with Brock Osweiler." We don't need that at all. That's just wild optimism not at all grounded in reality, like getting really, really excited about betting the house, the kids and the family dog on #17 red in roulette in Vegas.

So you think what? That Denver can keep relying on an overpaid, lame quarterback and then suddenly draft the next Andrew Luck? Yeah, Okay...


The Brock Osweiler era will be on us soon enough and everybody will get to watch the annual "search for a QB" for the next ten years. How stupid are those fans going to look if it turns out that Brock isn't any good, and you threw away at least a chance with Peyton?

What chance with Peyton? You want to play the odds, no team that has had a complete regime change and especially new systems instilled have ever won a Championship. The only two examples are completely asinine because Seifert inhereted the 49ers and the staff and Gruden rode their on the coat tails of the Buccaneers defense.

This is not about whether or not Brock Osweiler is great, it’s about knowing whether or not he is more then his draft position, despite your incoherent rambling and belligerent beliefs. Or if Denver needs to move in another direction, which is just as possible. You seem more interested in one more winning season despite the odds before it all falls apart, what is the difference? If your wife is cheating on you and wants a divorce do you go to marriage counseling even knowing in the end the result is likely to be the same?


And before you say that "Brock might be great, you don't know." We won't know for sure until he gets the starting job, but "history says that's not the way to bet." Period. :coffee:

Really? Actually, you need to fix your version of history; because Favre, Staubach, Montana, Brady, Fouts, Brees, Delhomme, Jurgensen, Foles, Moon, Starr, Dalton, Tarkenton, Hasselbeck and Romo could argue that point. Funny how three of those on that list are in GOAT debates.


And if you've got an alternative, you don't have to be in a rush to look behind door #3 where Carol Merrill is standing - and when you open door #3 it's 100 cans of tinned squid.

Another senseless statement...no you’re absolutely right, you keep riding a dead horse into obscurity, it worked for San Francisco, Green Bay and New England...oh, wait...it didn’t.

[Buff]

Guys, quality QBs are hard to find.

There - now you can skip over Cugel's last 40,000 words on the forums.

[MOtorboat]

The Plan A, Plan B comment by Elway has gotten ridiculously blown out of proportion and out of context at this point.

[Ravage!!!]

Guys, quality QBs are hard to find.

There - now you can skip over Cugel's last 40,000 words on the forums.

Yeah.. that's about the shortest set of cliff notes I've seen that nails it. Can you start doing this for Joel's posts from now on?

[underrated29]

Another problem for Denver is that they are facing probably their worst off-season under John Elway. Now while I credit Elway with being solid at his job, he's been more effective in Free Agency then the Draft which could lead the team in the wrong direction and quicker then some on here realize. The drive to win is one thing, but being compulsively obsessive about it can cause more harm then good. Bill Parcells and Urban Meyer both know this, Bill Belichick learned the hard way - he tried to use free agency twice to win and they lost, he returned to his roots and they are World Champions (again) and it cost Mike Shanahan as well. While you need to add some pieces via Free Agency you need to use the Draft more effectively. Denver at this point is set to spend more then 70 million on free agents on the roster, the 7 of our top 10 paid players for 2015 are from Free Agency.

Peyton Manning will make 21.5 million in 2015, during a regime switch which will see a new offense and defense installed, chances are about 15/1 that we'll make it to the Super Bowl, when at this stage it is probably smarter to move in a more youthful, long-term direction. People love to say "In Elway We Trust", they won't for long if the team is ill prepared for the next step because he's holding on too hard to the notion of win and win now. Since drafting Von Miller Denver has drafted how many long-term starters?

Problem is that the fan base is in a win now mode as well, not looking beyond to see the horizon may be black.





I cannot agree with any of this Lan.

Who cares if our best players are FA or draftees? What does it matter? And what does it matter if our BEST players earn the top salaries on our team? The best players usually do get paid the most.

The whole better to build through the draft then FA applies only to when teams get in cap hell for signing outragous contracts to guys looking to get paid. So far we do not have any of those. All of our FA have been brought in on extremely friendly deals. They all have played up to their standards as well. There is no Jarmcus Russell or Dale Carter or that fat DT shanny cut from washington here. We dont have longterm dead money from guys who just wanted to get paid.


Also, we have drafted and kept (off the top of my head)


Orlando Franklin
MOntee Ball
Cj Anderson
Ronnie hillman
Brock Oz
Julius Thomas
Virgil Green
Schofield
Derek Wolfe
Malik Jackson
Sly Williams
Von Miller
Danny Trev
Nate Irving
Rahim Moore
Chris Harris
Brad Roby
Brandon Marshall (or did we sign him from colts or somewhere?)
Kayvon Webster


ALL OF WHOM aside from Schofield have started this year for us at one time or another. Yes, many of them have cheap o salaries, due to being drafted and the rookie cap, but the best ones also do or will have top salaries on our team sooner than later.



You do not blow up a team one year removed from a superbowl for a youth movement or any other garbage like that. We are an Elite team. We have the talent and sent the most players to the Pro Bowl this year (11) then any other team. This is not a team or a Time do something like that. Not at all.

I cannot even see how this will be elways hardest offseason either? We have a few guys we have to keep. No biggie. Just like any other good team. We dont have to go crazy in FA this year as we are a stacked team nearly everywhere. We will likely bring in a few guys (not huge names) and plug them in. Draft for need and whoever leaves in FA. IMO I see this as his easiest offseason here. Not the hardest. We have just a couple big guys we have to retain. We do not have major needs that require high profile FAs. I see it as keep some guys, add a few low key players to replace and see if anyone who can help will come cheap.




We have lost the last few years not because of talent or salary cap or anything like that. We have lost because of coaching. Plain and Simple. Our offense is intact and will dominate. Cj and Ball could both go for 1k. Our WR and QB we know about and all we need is another pass catching type TE (easy to get)Look at Owen Daniels still getting it done. Our defense is loaded and with Wade....yeah. We are locked and loaded. All we need is a HC who can motivate the guys. An OC who wont call only bubble screens and runs on every first down and a DC who knows what a blitz is.




**EDIT- and as for our team long term we have Tons and Tons of players who are really young. Manning, Vasquez, Montgommery, Welker and a few others are the guys who make our team seem so old. After that it is all mid 20 somethings or less. We have the youth and the foundation in place already. Manny sanders, DT, Virg, Von, all RBs, OZ, Trev, Harris, Roby, Moore, Webster, Irving, Jackson, Wolfe, Sly......all these guys are on their first contracts or just about to enter their 2nd one. We are super young.

[BroncoJoe]

Screw that "fatalistic" crap! I'm a REALIST! There's a DIFFERENCE! One is based on "hope" and one is based on "reality." Reality = History and Statistics.

Hope - that's how Vegas gets those Billion $ casinos. Because people who are math challenged go to Vegas and bet on #17 red. And then they get all excited about "their chance to win big!"

I look at the actual HISTORY of the last 15 years and see that there's 1 QB drafted as late as #57 who was any good and then look at the list of all the busts and disappointments. And I conclude based on reality, that there's about a 1% chance that Brock Osweiler is going to be a Super Bowl winning QB and about 117 chances that he's not.

I'm sorry if that punctures the illusion of hope that some fans have.

I certainly "hope" Brock Osweiler is great. It would be awesome if he were a Super Bowl caliber QB. I'd cheer just as loudly as you any day of the week!

But, is it likely enough to happen that I'm going to suspend my belief in reality and get all excited about the "possibility"? No.

And it's flat idiotic to say "get rid of Peyton Manning", who has actually won a SB, in order to "see what we've got with Brock Osweiler" who has about a 1% chance of ever winning a SB.

I don't know what the odds are with Peyton, but they've got to be better than 1%.

You're really not that smart, are you.

[Northman]

I certainly "hope" Brock Osweiler is great. It would be awesome if he were a Super Bowl caliber QB. I'd cheer just as loudly as you any day of the week!

.

Best thing you have ever said on this forum. Everything else you said is just hot air.

[Lancane]

I cannot agree with any of this Lan.

Who cares if our best players are FA or draftees? What does it matter? And what does it matter if our BEST players earn the top salaries on our team? The best players usually do get paid the most.

The whole better to build through the draft then FA applies only to when teams get in cap hell for signing outragous contracts to guys looking to get paid. So far we do not have any of those. All of our FA have been brought in on extremely friendly deals. They all have played up to their standards as well. There is no Jarmcus Russell or Dale Carter or that fat DT shanny cut from washington here. We dont have longterm dead money from guys who just wanted to get paid.


Also, we have drafted and kept (off the top of my head)


Orlando Franklin
MOntee Ball
Cj Anderson
Ronnie hillman
Brock Oz
Julius Thomas
Virgil Green
Schofield
Derek Wolfe
Malik Jackson
Sly Williams
Von Miller
Danny Trev
Nate Irving
Rahim Moore
Chris Harris
Brad Roby
Brandon Marshall (or did we sign him from colts or somewhere?)
Kayvon Webster


ALL OF WHOM aside from Schofield have started this year for us at one time or another. Yes, many of them have cheap o salaries, due to being drafted and the rookie cap, but the best ones also do or will have top salaries on our team sooner than later.



You do not blow up a team one year removed from a superbowl for a youth movement or any other garbage like that. We are an Elite team. We have the talent and sent the most players to the Pro Bowl this year (11) then any other team. This is not a team or a Time do something like that. Not at all.

I cannot even see how this will be elways hardest offseason either? We have a few guys we have to keep. No biggie. Just like any other good team. We dont have to go crazy in FA this year as we are a stacked team nearly everywhere. We will likely bring in a few guys (not huge names) and plug them in. Draft for need and whoever leaves in FA. IMO I see this as his easiest offseason here. Not the hardest. We have just a couple big guys we have to retain. We do not have major needs that require high profile FAs. I see it as keep some guys, add a few low key players to replace and see if anyone who can help will come cheap.




We have lost the last few years not because of talent or salary cap or anything like that. We have lost because of coaching. Plain and Simple. Our offense is intact and will dominate. Cj and Ball could both go for 1k. Our WR and QB we know about and all we need is another pass catching type TE (easy to get)Look at Owen Daniels still getting it done. Our defense is loaded and with Wade....yeah. We are locked and loaded. All we need is a HC who can motivate the guys. An OC who wont call only bubble screens and runs on every first down and a DC who knows what a blitz is.




**EDIT- and as for our team long term we have Tons and Tons of players who are really young. Manning, Vasquez, Montgommery, Welker and a few others are the guys who make our team seem so old. After that it is all mid 20 somethings or less. We have the youth and the foundation in place already. Manny sanders, DT, Virg, Von, all RBs, OZ, Trev, Harris, Roby, Moore, Webster, Irving, Jackson, Wolfe, Sly......all these guys are on their first contracts or just about to enter their 2nd one. We are super young.

Sorry UD, this is so incoherent I don't know how to respond. If you actually buy what your selling...then good for you. If you think that Denver should pay near 40 million for two single players then kudos to you, but I'd rather we kept five others that really are the core of the team for that price, hell - they'd be cheaper.

[Slick]

One could argue your hope in Manning ever taking this team on a title run is just as misguided, Cugel.

[Bronco9798]

I'm not to anxious to move on to OZ. I'll watch and hope he does well. I'm not, and never will be, sold on him until he proves me wrong. I think he's a career backup QB, if that. He's a Bronco and I'll always pull for him. Just making that clear. I hope we draft a QB this year that has a lot of upside.

[Cugel]

So you think what? That Denver can keep relying on an overpaid, lame quarterback and then suddenly draft the next Andrew Luck? Yeah, Okay...


Nope. That's the point. They're probably NOT going to draft Andrew Luck, or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees, etc. They're probably going to do exactly what Shanahan did for 10 years. 8-8, 7-9, 9-7. One playoff win in 10 years. And they've already drafted a guy who will be lucky to be Brian Griese or Kyle Orton. It's actually statistically more likely that he's the next Brian Brohme or Chad Henne - players who were drafted at his spot.

So, what's the rush? Peyton gives them at least a chance. And that's what it's all about. It's not going to "set the team back" because that future is nothing to look forward to.

Just ask how far this team with all this talent can go with a mediocre QB. You just saw what a Hall of Fame QB can do with a roster of undrafted WRs. Well, Tom Brady isn't coming to town. So, it's Peyton or bust. I'll take that ride.

[Northman]

Well i guess the good news is when Peyton finally does retire so will Cugel from this board since he already has packed it in post Manning.

[Rick]

I hope I am wrong but I have visions of Manning going down the same route as Schaub. No ability to push it down the field, loss of confidence, INTs.

[Northman]

I hope I am wrong but I have visions of Manning going down the same route as Schaub. No ability to push it down the field, loss of confidence, INTs.

I dont think Peyton will quite get to that point. I think if he struggles out the gate (if he comes back) he will just call it a day.

[Bronco9798]

I hope I am wrong but I have visions of Manning going down the same route as Schaub. No ability to push it down the field, loss of confidence, INTs.

You should probably not trust your visions. See if you have them again if we make the playoffs. They may be right then. Hopefully, not.

[Cugel]

I'm not to anxious to move on to OZ. I'll watch and hope he does well. I'm not, and never will be, sold on him until he proves me wrong. I think he's a career backup QB, if that. He's a Bronco and I'll always pull for him. Just making that clear. I hope we draft a QB this year that has a lot of upside.

Every Broncos fan on these boards would be thrilled if Brock Osweiler proves to be great. I can't even describe the thrill I got when he made a few insignificant plays in the pre-season and didn't suck.

We all hope that. But, you have to be smart about this. He's probably going to fail because he's a late 2nd round pick and those almost never pan out.

So, if you still have a chance to win a SB with Peyton Manning, then you give it another shot. When Brock takes over, they can blow up the team, do anything they want, because it's just not going to matter. This team with Osweiler is probably going to struggle to win the division. Just look what happened to Kubiak because he had a 3rd round QB in Matt Schaub. Got fired.

We've been through all this before with Shanny. What in Hell makes anybody think this time is going to be different?

[Lancane]

I'm not to anxious to move on to OZ. I'll watch and hope he does well. I'm not, and never will be, sold on him until he proves me wrong. I think he's a career backup QB, if that. He's a Bronco and I'll always pull for him. Just making that clear. I hope we draft a QB this year that has a lot of upside.

This years quarterback class is like watching to see who is the next option quarterback to bust or who is the next Manziel. The only quarterbacks that look worth a damn are Grayson and Mannion, Denver would have to take Grayson in the first and Mannion is more immobile then Manning.

[Lancane]

Nope. That's the point. They're probably NOT going to draft Andrew Luck, or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees, etc. They're probably going to do exactly what Shanahan did for 10 years. 8-8, 7-9, 9-7. One playoff win in 10 years. And they've already drafted a guy who will be lucky to be Brian Griese or Kyle Orton. It's actually statistically more likely that he's the next Brian Brohme or Chad Henne - players who were drafted at his spot.

So, what's the rush? Peyton gives them at least a chance. And that's what it's all about. It's not going to "set the team back" because that future is nothing to look forward to.

Just ask how far this team with all this talent can go with a mediocre QB. You just saw what a Hall of Fame QB can do with a roster of undrafted WRs. Well, Tom Brady isn't coming to town. So, it's Peyton or bust. I'll take that ride.

I doubt Elway will let it play out that way...but to each his own. I don't believe Manning is the answer and am not sure Osweiler is either - but spending a quarter of the cap on two players is down right ****ing retarded.

[Northman]

I doubt Elway will let it play out that way...but to each his own. I don't believe Manning is the answer and am not sure Osweiler is either - but spending a quarter of the cap on two players is down right ****ing retarded.

You would have to be an absolute MORON to think that Elway will let this team fall like it did under McD. Elway will do what it takes to keep this team competitive and in the mix for a championship no matter the cost.

[Rick]

Oz doesn't have to be great. With this defense and running game we hopefully build he just has to be relatively good. Don't make stupid mistakes, hand it off, and throw the ball down the field off behind the defense.

Be good enough that defense don't consider him an afterthought. If they play a defense that plays the run and gives him the chance to beat them...he needs to beat them.

[Northman]

This years quarterback class is like watching to see who is the next option quarterback to bust or who is the next Manziel. The only quarterbacks that look worth a damn are Grayson and Mannion, Denver would have to take Grayson in the first and Mannion is more immobile then Manning.

This class is extremely weak, even Mariota doesnt 100% convince me he will be good.

[Cugel]

One could argue your hope in Manning ever taking this team on a title run is just as misguided, Cugel.

Wrong. :coffee:

He's already won a SB so it's no fantasy to think he might win another. He AVERAGES 12 wins every season and won 12 this year. He's won the AFC West 3 straight years. He threw for 4700 yards, 39 TDs and only 15 picks with a QBR of 101.5.

That's a great year by any standard. He was a top 5 QB in the NFL this year. He was injured the last month of the season and had a bad playoff game so tons of idiots want him to retire?

That's just so wrong!

He sucked in the Super Bowl? Name one Bronco who didn't suck in that game? How about the playoff loss to Indy? I can't think of one guy who had a good game that game.

The fact is that John Fox constantly got out-coached and did again this year, and Del Rio was on speed-dial to get his coaching gig lined up in Oakland. They were checked out before the damn game! Fox even had his buddy Jay Glazer publicly tip off the Bears not to hire anybody because Fox might be available after the game.

Then his team went out and tanked and he had another job lined up 48 hours later. Basterd couldn't wait to get out of town.

So, no, I don't blame Manning for everything like you do.

I say Peyton's going to look pretty damn good after 5 years of mediocrity. People who are ripping him now are going to look back and think that 12-13 wins a season and getting to the SB looks actually pretty good when you're 8-8 or 9-7.

[Lancane]

This class is extremely weak, even Mariota doesnt 100% convince me he will be good.

Grayson is about the only quarterback to impress me thus far, but he'll go early in the second round - so Denver would have to take him in the first. Mannion has all the tools but not the legs, if Manning is immobile that kid is a freaking statue.

Winston will be busted for hookers and coke sooner then Manziel's proven to be a bust, Mariota looks like the next Kaepernick, while Hundley and Petty look like piss poor versions of Robert Griffin.

[Slick]

Wrong. :coffee:

He's already won a SB so it's no fantasy to think he might win another. He AVERAGES 12 wins every season and won 12 this year. He's won the AFC West 3 straight years. He threw for 4700 yards, 39 TDs and only 15 picks with a QBR of 101.5.

That's a great year by any standard. He was a top 5 QB in the NFL this year. He was injured the last month of the season and had a bad playoff game so tons of idiots want him to retire?

That's just so wrong!

He sucked in the Super Bowl? Name one Bronco who didn't suck in that game? How about the playoff loss to Indy? I can't think of one guy who had a good game that game.

The fact is that John Fox constantly got out-coached and did again this year, and Del Rio was on speed-dial to get his coaching gig lined up in Oakland. They were checked out before the damn game! Fox even had his buddy Jay Glazer publicly tip off the Bears not to hire anybody because Fox might be available after the game.

Then his team went out and tanked and he had another job lined up 48 hours later. Basterd couldn't wait to get out of town.

So, no, I don't blame Manning for everything like you do.

I say Peyton's going to look pretty damn good after 5 years of mediocrity. People who are ripping him now are going to look back and think that 12-13 wins a season and getting to the SB looks actually pretty good when you're 8-8 or 9-7.

I'm not blaming Manning for anything. The guy gives it his all which is all I can ask as a fan.

The fact that I would rather move on instead of prolonging the inevitable only means that I don't have the hope in him that many still do.

It doesn't mean that I think Brock is the answer either. I'd just rather get started on the future sooner than you.

We can disagree. I'm okay with that.

[BroncoJoe]

Well i guess the good news is when Peyton finally does retire so will Cugel from this board since he already has packed it in post Manning.

We can only hope.

[Cugel]

This class is extremely weak, even Mariota doesnt 100% convince me he will be good.

100%? I'd give him about 60% and that's being somewhat charitable.

That's the problem we face. Some years there just are NO QBs available even if you have the #1 pick.

Take 2006 for instance. Suppose you're the Titans and you need a QB. What are you to do? Your choices are Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler. So, even if you knew that Vince Young was hopeless, what other options do you have? None. Good luck with that.

Then if you needed a QB in 2007 you could choose from such All-Pros as JaWalrus Russell, Brady Quinn, and Kevin Kolb.

So, basically you're screwed for 3 years! 2008 rolls around and if you had a top 3 pick you could get Matt Ryan, and #18 gets you Joe Flacco. Two guys, both gone in the top 18 picks, when probably 20 teams need a franchise QBs (although some of them don't know it yet).

Then you get to 2009 and it's Matt Stafford, Mark Sanchez, or Josh Freeman. Maybe, no and Hell No! 2010? Sam Bradford who has underwhelmed in St. Louis and might be traded soon with the #1 pick (and they weren't trading that pick no matter what anyway). So, 31 other teams have a choice of Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen or Colt McCoy? No thanks.

2011 gets you Cam Newton, but also Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder all with top 20 picks. Maybe Cam will ultimately win a championship. Maybe.

I'm not including the late 2nd rounders or later, because they ALL sucked in every one of those years.

[BroncoJoe]

Wrong. :coffee:

He's already won a SB so it's no fantasy to think he might win another. He AVERAGES 12 wins every season and won 12 this year. He's won the AFC West 3 straight years. He threw for 4700 yards, 39 TDs and only 15 picks with a QBR of 101.5.

That's a great year by any standard. He was a top 5 QB in the NFL this year. He was injured the last month of the season and had a bad playoff game so tons of idiots want him to retire?

That's just so wrong!

He sucked in the Super Bowl? Name one Bronco who didn't suck in that game? How about the playoff loss to Indy? I can't think of one guy who had a good game that game.

The fact is that John Fox constantly got out-coached and did again this year, and Del Rio was on speed-dial to get his coaching gig lined up in Oakland. They were checked out before the damn game! Fox even had his buddy Jay Glazer publicly tip off the Bears not to hire anybody because Fox might be available after the game.

Then his team went out and tanked and he had another job lined up 48 hours later. Basterd couldn't wait to get out of town.

So, no, I don't blame Manning for everything like you do.

I say Peyton's going to look pretty damn good after 5 years of mediocrity. People who are ripping him now are going to look back and think that 12-13 wins a season and getting to the SB looks actually pretty good when you're 8-8 or 9-7.

And all those wins and yards, TD's and rating etc. got us exactly what?

[Lancane]

I'd trade Peyton Manning for Nick Foles or Ryan Tannehill without batting an eye.

[BroncoJoe]

I'd trade Peyton Manning for Nick Foles or Ryan Tannehill without batting an eye.

I know you don't like him, but honestly - I'll take Brock. Let's see what the kid has, especially with Kubiak as coach.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not "writing off" the next ten years. I'm basing an analysis on history and saying "Whoa there! Not so fast!"

If Peyton retires there's NO choice. It's "Brock or bust" right?

"There is no plan B. We're going plan A." At least for 1 season.

But, if you have a choice, then stick with Peyton and try and convince him to come back.

What I object to is all the idiotic nonsense about "Peyton's washed up. Let's see what we have in Brock." Well, we probably don't have anything in Brock, so let's not be in such a rush to open that particular door.

Some fans are just too mesmerized by shiny objects. "Oooh! Shiny new! Let's take a look!"

I don't think anyone is saying with any certainty that Manning is washed up. No one has or will dispute the odds of Osweiler being a franchise quarterback. You say that is a reality and a fact that's fine. It's also reality and a fact Manning is going to be 39 years old by the start of next season. Mentally Manning can handle the position but physically just might be a different story. You say Manning at 80% is still vastly superior to Osweiler that purely subjective. We have seen Manning at about 80% the last six weeks of the season and he was pedestrian at best.

[Lancane]

I know you don't like him, but honestly - I'll take Brock. Let's see what the kid has, especially with Kubiak as coach.

Don't like Brock? Where did you get that? I am ready to see what Oz has in the tank. But I was making a point, that is all.

[Bronco9798]

And all those wins and yards, TD's and rating etc. got us exactly what?

Joe, all those wins have made us at least AFC West Champions for consecutive years and a shot in the playoffs. I mean, it's better than going 7-9 and 6-10, etc., It gave us hope, a shot, a regular season to beat the AFC west opponents over and over and at least give us something to be happy about during the regular season. It's better than being the Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Raiders. being competitive like that gives you chances of landing FA's like Ware, Talib, Ward, etc., Yea, there's been no Super Bowl victories, I agree. I totally agree. But it's been better than sitting through seasons of mediocrity and nothing. You think we're going 13-3 or 12-4 with Brock at the helms. I mean, come on, seriously. Peyton this year will probably bring us another AFC West championship and at least another shot. We're not going to get a shot without him. I really believe that.

[Bronco9798]

I can't believe all this hype for friggin Brock. If he gets the nod one day, I hope he does great. I wouldn't bet my future on it though. I just don't see it.

[Lancane]

Joe, all those wins have made us at least AFC West Champions for consecutive years and a shot in the playoffs. I mean, it's better than going 7-9 and 6-10, etc., It have us hope, a shot, a regular season to beat the AFC west opponents over and over and at least give us something to be happy about during the regular season. It's better than being the Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Raiders. being competitive like that gives you chances of landing FA's like Ware, Talib, Ward, etc., Yea, there's been no Super Bowl victories, I agree. I totally agree. But it's been better than sitting through seasons of mediocrity and nothing. You think we're going 13-3 or 12-4 with Brock at the helms. I mean, come on, seriously. Peyton this year will probably bring us another AFC West championship and at least another shot. We're not going to get a shot without him. I really believe that.

So winning the Division is priority now? Come on man. Elway said what his goal was, what is unrealistic is to think Manning can lead us there during a regime change with a completely new offense and defense, one year with Manning will net us crap and woo'freaking'hoo if we win the division then become bottom feeders. Hell, I'd be surprised if we win the division again even with him at the helm.

[TXBRONC]

I can't believe all this hype for friggin Brock. If he gets the nod one day, I hope he does great. I wouldn't bet my future on it though. I just don't see it.

Whose betting their future on it?

[Lancane]

I can't believe all this hype for friggin Brock. If he gets the nod one day, I hope he does great. I wouldn't bet my future on it though. I just don't see it.

It's not hype, but we see the goose is cooked, actually it's burnt and despite being hungry we don't want it...we'll take a hamburger and hope it's better then the burnt ****!

[Bronco9798]

Whose betting their future on it?

Just a choice of words. I really don't think you're going to, like, put your kids on the auction block or mortgage your house... Calm down, Tex......lol..

[Bronco9798]

So winning the Division is priority now? Come on man. Elway said what his goal was, what is unrealistic is to think Manning can lead us there during a regime change with a completely new offense and defense, one year with Manning will net us crap and woo'freaking'hoo if we win the division then become bottom feeders. Hell, I'd be surprised if we win the division again even with him at the helm.

There you go paraphrasing and making it your way. Find the word priority in my post about winning the division. Come on, man, you're better than that.

[BroncoJoe]

Don't like Brock? Where did you get that? I am ready to see what Oz has in the tank. But I was making a point, that is all.

I must have confused you with someone else. Maybe...


Joe, all those wins have made us at least AFC West Champions for consecutive years and a shot in the playoffs. I mean, it's better than going 7-9 and 6-10, etc., It gave us hope, a shot, a regular season to beat the AFC west opponents over and over and at least give us something to be happy about during the regular season. It's better than being the Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Raiders. being competitive like that gives you chances of landing FA's like Ware, Talib, Ward, etc., Yea, there's been no Super Bowl victories, I agree. I totally agree. But it's been better than sitting through seasons of mediocrity and nothing. You think we're going 13-3 or 12-4 with Brock at the helms. I mean, come on, seriously. Peyton this year will probably bring us another AFC West championship and at least another shot. We're not going to get a shot without him. I really believe that.

I get it Kev - but all those AFCW Championships and winning 12+ games don't really mean anything if we get blown out in the Superbowl, or never even make it to the game. It's more of a tease to have this team winning in that regard than going through a couple of down years. Just my opinion.

I'm not "all in" on Brock, but Manning at 38/39 is no Elway at 38/39. It's just not going to happen IMO. So why not try the kid?

[Northman]

Joe, all those wins have made us at least AFC West Champions for consecutive years and a shot in the playoffs. I mean, it's better than going 7-9 and 6-10, etc., It gave us hope, a shot, a regular season to beat the AFC west opponents over and over and at least give us something to be happy about during the regular season. It's better than being the Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Raiders. being competitive like that gives you chances of landing FA's like Ware, Talib, Ward, etc., Yea, there's been no Super Bowl victories, I agree. I totally agree. But it's been better than sitting through seasons of mediocrity and nothing. You think we're going 13-3 or 12-4 with Brock at the helms. I mean, come on, seriously. Peyton this year will probably bring us another AFC West championship and at least another shot. We're not going to get a shot without him. I really believe that.

It got us a shot when he was playing well, when he wasnt he was no better than Akili Smith. While it remains to be seen how Peyton will fair coming back from injury im never one to believe we cant get there with another QB. Shanahan got us within a game of the SB with Jake fricking Plummer. The Steelers won a SB in Big Ben's second season. Its been done and can be done with or without Oz.

[Northman]

I can't believe all this hype for friggin Brock. If he gets the nod one day, I hope he does great. I wouldn't bet my future on it though. I just don't see it.

What hype? Since when does seeing what a guy has turn into hype? Lmao

[Bronco9798]

It's not hype, but we see the goose is cooked, actually it's burnt and despite being hungry we don't want it...we'll take a hamburger and hope it's better then the burnt ****!

Sure. Whatever you say. So since Peyton can't win the Super Bowl, Brock is going to take us there and win it. Gotcha! Sure, whatever you say. How funny, or stupid. Not sure, yet.

[TXBRONC]

Just a choice of words. I really don't think you're going to, like, put your kids on the auction block or mortgage your house... Calm down, Tex......lol..

I didn't take it in that kind of a literal sense my friend. If I understood you correctly you were meaning people are to eager to see Osweiler get on the field and kick Manning to curb but I pretty sure that anyone is saying. Hey I not upset in the least.

[Bronco9798]

OK, so Let's say we play Brock and we go 7-9. You're all ok with that? You would rather do that instead of playing Peyton this year, winning the division, getting to the playoffs, and at least getting a shot at the Super Bowl. Gotcha all again. Please respond to what I'm saying. Hypothetical here. Brock starts and we go 7-9 and no playoffs. Peyton starts and get us to the playoffs, and a shot at the Super Bowl. You would rather have Brock? Yes or no?

[Bronco9798]

It got us a shot when he was playing well, when he wasnt he was no better than Akili Smith. While it remains to be seen how Peyton will fair coming back from injury im never one to believe we cant get there with another QB. Shanahan got us within a game of the SB with Jake fricking Plummer. The Steelers won a SB in Big Ben's second season. Its been done and can be done with or without Oz.

Big Ben? Brock couldn't hold up to the beating Ben takes week in and week out. He's not even comparable to Ben. Nice take there.

[Lancane]

There you go paraphrasing and making it your way. Find the word priority in my post about winning the division. Come on, man, you're better than that.

Point is that your saying that fans will find gratification with another winning season and taking the division...but most will not be satisfied with anything less then a championship and the calls for moving on will be worse with another shot season and it would do us what good? Piss off more fans?

Especially when he'll get 21.5 million for this upcoming season and we're likely lose a player or two just to pay him his asinine, unrealistic salary.

Denver's chances at winning the Super Bowl during a regime changes is almost nil, at least with Brock at the helm expectations will lower and we go from there.

[underrated29]

If we cannot win with Manning we sure as shit arent going to win with any other QB we currently have or may have (sam bradford is imo the only exception).


Not sure why everyone thinks it is on manning? Guy was hurt, but with our roster only 13 points? Thats coaching. Anyone who think Belicheck could only score 13 with our roster and a hurt manning is a liar. Even Mcdaniels could probably score us more than 13 points. But, if you believe the lack of fire, and lack of any other play then bubble screen or first down run is not on the coaches but manning, well, I dont even know.

[Lancane]

OK, so Let's say we play Brock and we go 7-9. You're all ok with that? You would rather do that instead of playing Peyton this year, winning the division, getting to the playoffs, and at least getting a shot at the Super Bowl. Gotcha all again. Please respond to what I'm saying. Hypothetical here. Brock starts and we go 7-9 and no playoffs. Peyton starts and get us to the playoffs, and a shot at the Super Bowl. You would rather have Brock? Yes or no?

At this stage? Yes. We use that 21.5 million to secure the other cogs in the machine, see if Brock can do anything with the machine, if not - then we know and we start moving forward in a different direction, but those other pieces will be in place and ready.

[Bronco9798]

Point is that your saying that fans will find gratification with another winning season and taking the division...but most will not be satisfied with anything less then a championship and the calls for moving on will be worse with another shot season and it would do us what good? Piss off more fans?

Especially when he'll get 21.5 million for this upcoming season and we're likely lose a player or two just to pay him his asinine, unrealistic salary.

Denver's chances at winning the Super Bowl during a regime changes is almost nil, at least with Brock at the helm expectations will lower and we go from there.

I enjoy a winning season. I like sweeping the Chiefs, Chargers, and Raiders. However, I want a Super Bowl win as bad as I did in 9798. OK, get that straight. However, I like watching football on Sundays and enjoying the games as well. So yes, I'll take another 13 win season and a shot at the playoffs for this year instead of going with a back up QB with the talent that is on the field. I'll take Peyton leading this group this year over OZ, yes I will. That's really not a hard decision for this year coming up. It's actually a smart choice.

[underrated29]

Point is that your saying that fans will find gratification with another winning season and taking the division...but most will not be satisfied with anything less then a championship and the calls for moving on will be worse with another shot season and it would do us what good? Piss off more fans?

Especially when he'll get 21.5 million for this upcoming season and we're likely lose a player or two just to pay him his asinine, unrealistic salary.

Denver's chances at winning the Super Bowl during a regime changes is almost nil, at least with Brock at the helm expectations will lower and we go from there.




Who are we going to keep or sign if we dont have mannings salary? I cannot think of nearly as many FA that will want to come here to win with a QB who has never played before. I bet a lot of our guys on the fence, like pot roast would leave for a contender with a QB too.

We can keep DT and Pot roast with manning here. Who else are we going to be able to keep that we otherwise could not have kept? or Who would we sign that can help if manning leaves? Be realistic if you can please.

[Bronco9798]

At this stage? Yes. We use that 21.5 million to secure the other cogs in the machine, see if Brock can do anything with the machine, if not - then we know and we start moving forward in a different direction, but those other pieces will be in place and ready.

Just have to disagree with you. That's it.

[Lancane]

Sure. Whatever you say. So since Peyton can't win the Super Bowl, Brock is going to take us there and win it. Gotcha! Sure, whatever you say. How funny, or stupid. Not sure, yet.

Did I ever say that bro? I don't think Brock will lead us there, but at least seeing him will give the answer about him? Yes or No and would allow us to continue to solidify a team that needs that one last piece on the chess board.

[underrated29]

At this stage? Yes. We use that 21.5 million to secure the other cogs in the machine, see if Brock can do anything with the machine, if not - then we know and we start moving forward in a different direction, but those other pieces will be in place and ready.



I would do this after next year though. You dont just blow up our team. Our team is too good. It is a SB caliber team. Next year, when peyton leaves, I can see exactly what you are saying. But not this upcoming year. Its a moment too soon.

[Lancane]

Who are we going to keep or sign if we dont have mannings salary? I cannot think of nearly as many FA that will want to come here to win with a QB who has never played before. I bet a lot of our guys on the fence, like pot roast would leave for a contender with a QB too.

We can keep DT and Pot roast with manning here. Who else are we going to be able to keep that we otherwise could not have kept? or Who would we sign that can help if manning leaves? Be realistic if you can please.

I don't believe for a second D. Thomas and T. Knighton's decision is based on Manning, too many players have said they'll be fine...would they say that if keeping Manning meant we could not sign them and they had to go elsewhere?

[Northman]

OK, so Let's say we play Brock and we go 7-9. You're all ok with that?

Is it likely we go 7-9 with Brock? Possible and probably likely. Aaron Rodgers after sitting for 3 years went 6-10 his first year. So you expect some bumps with a new and wet QB. Does this mean that Brock will be Aaron? No, but since we are playing the hypothetical game im using that comparison. Rodgers went 11-5 the following year and hasnt looked back since.


You would rather do that instead of playing Peyton this year, winning the division, getting to the playoffs, and at least getting a shot at the Super Bowl.

What if Peyton comes back and plays most of the season like he did in the Colts playoff game? NO way we are winning the division let alone 10 games with that kind of play. Would i rather start a green QB to try and get better for future chances at a championship vs watching a HOF QB disgrace himself and his legacy by forcing himself to play longer than he should? No, i would rather that Peyton leave with some dignity than face the embarrassment because i do care that his legacy stay intact.



Hypothetical here. Peyton starts and doesnt get us to the playoffs, and a shot at the Super Bowl.

Certainly possible, hypothetically speaking of course.

[Simple Jaded]

This offseason is no more, no less important for John Elway than the last two, the pivotal off season was 2012.

And the main reason the highest paid players on the team are free agents is because the McDaniels Error didn't leave this regime with ANY players worth extending. They're just now getting to this regimes draft picks up for extension, and they got 4 starters out of that first draft class.

Edit. Ok I can see this threads gone full retard, peace out.

[Rick]

I respect Manning and all he has done for this team. I just think he physically can't get it done at an elite level anymore.

Does that mean Brock is a better QB? No, it doesn't. If Brock is decent enough though, he can QB this team to the playoffs when you consider the pieces we can add to the puzzle with an extra 21.5 million to spend.

It is not just Manning vs Brock.

It is an aging Manning vs Brock and the extra pieces that could be brought in as well as retained to help out Brock.

[Lancane]

I would do this after next year though. You dont just blow up our team. Our team is too good. It is a SB caliber team. Next year, when peyton leaves, I can see exactly what you are saying. But not this upcoming year. Its a moment too soon.

Well, your likely to get your wish anyways. We'll likely end up paying about 39 million for him and Demaryius Thomas, probably lose Franklin or Knighton, if not both. And let us hope Elway doesn't spend an additional 10 million on Julius cause then you can guarantee we lose both, hope we find enough Band-Aid players to fill the gaps and do something that has never been done, win a Super Bowl in the first year of a regime change with a new offense and defense instilled.

[TXBRONC]

This offseason is no more, no less important for John Elway than the last two, the pivotal off season was 2012.

And the main reason the highest paid players on the team are free agents is because the McDaniels Error didn't leave this regime with ANY players worth extending. They're just now getting to this regimes draft picks up for extension, and they got 4 starters out of that first draft class.

Edit. Ok I can see this threads gone full retard, peace out.

I'm not a retard. :viking:

[underrated29]

Well, your likely to get your wish anyways. We'll likely end up paying about 39 million for him and Demaryius Thomas, probably lose Franklin or Knighton, if not both. And let us hope Elway doesn't spend an additional 10 million on Julius cause then you can guarantee we lose both, hope we find enough Band-Aid players to fill the gaps and do something that has never been done, win a Super Bowl in the first year of a regime change with a new offense and defense instilled.

Nah, don't want to pay a TE more than 5. I think we can land clay, Cameron or kendricks for 5 or way less in kendricks case.

We don't need many bandaid players at all.

Our holes: G,C,RT, FS, ILB, TE....Depth at DE would be nice but not required, same for OLB.

thats 6 needs and 2 more for depth.

Assuming we can find 2 starters in the draft. That leaves 4 players to fil via FA. TE will be easy in FA. RT seems like it will be with the Houston guy. MUG thinks our old C Chris Myers will be cut from Houston because he has a big cap hit. He could likely end up here also. If we get a TE and the RT, that leaves 2 holes to fill and depth......that's insanely good. Most teams do not only have 2 holes.


2 starters in FA.
2 starters in draft.

I think we can easily obtain this. And with a little luck we may be able to add another starter or two in FA and may get lucky and get another starter in the draft or Ufda.

[Rick]

I have read mixed reviews but what about Gresham at TE?

[underrated29]

I have read mixed reviews but what about Gresham at TE?



He'd be an ideal fit in kubes system, IMO. I'd love him but I don't think cincy lets him go. I'm not sure how much he would ask for either. I'd assume more then what we would want to pay but who knows. It's worth monitoring. Maybe King would shed some light.

[Rick]

Seems to be a decent blend of blocking and receiving. Big body in the end zone, could be ideal fit as part of a 2 TE pairing with Green.

My hope is the negatives about him keep his value reasonable. Not sure he will be resigned in Cincy since they have Eifert.

[underrated29]

Seems to be a decent blend of blocking and receiving. Big body in the end zone, could be ideal fit as part of a 2 TE pairing with Green.

My hope is the negatives about him keep his value reasonable. Not sure he will be resigned in Cincy since they have Eifert.

Possibly. There are a plethora of TEs who will be FA this year. There should be no reason that we cannot land a good TE for a very reasonable contract. Gresham would be one of those hopefully,

[Simple Jaded]

I like Gresham and/or Rob Housler, hope their franchise QB doesn't prevent them from signing two bit players.

[underrated29]

Houser is interesting. Definitely the receiving threat no question. Not so much on the blocking though. I think we can get a more well rounded TE for near same price. I would not be opposed to him though.

[Simple Jaded]

Houser is interesting. Definitely the receiving threat no question. Not so much on the blocking though. I think we can get a more well rounded TE for near same price. I would not be opposed to him though.

Much rather have Gresham, Green and a rookie, there just aren't many in the draft.

[Jsteve01]

Ahhh this reminds me of the good old days at the freak. A solid dose of hyperbole supplemented with a smidge of ad hominem. Fwiw, I'm pretty much cool with either scenario.

And for those who keep bringing up Griese and what a horrid transition it was let's not forget that he was playing extremely well in his second year as a starter prior to tearing up his shoulder vs Oakland which lead to his already meager arm strength becoming sub par. He did that in this very system with nothing near the supporting cast the current team sports and nowhere near the physical attributes Brock possesses. Ftr he threw 19 touchdowns and 4 picks in 10 games with a 7-3 record and a 102 qbr. With this staff and these weapons a young qb has a very good chance to succeed. Doesn't mean I don't want Manning back but I'm not buying the end of the world scenarios being parlayed right now.

[Lancane]

Much rather have Gresham, Green and a rookie, there just aren't many in the draft.

Actually this is one of the better tight end classes in recent memory Jaded.