Quote Forensics: Demaryius Thomas Will Be A Bronco

[WARHORSE]

Read an article in ESPN mag last year on Thomas. Outstanding artcle. In that article he said he would give Denver a home town discount and he wanted to be in Denver.
When asked about whether Peyton Manning was coming back, he said “I think he will.”

But Thomas added this: “I say that because I want him back, but I really don’t know.”

Sooooooooo......why would Demaryius want him back unless he was planning on being back himself?


See how I put the pieces of the puzzle together and learn that DT is going to be in Denver next year?

Quote forensics are amazing.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Preach it brotha

[Cugel]

I think the Broncos are going to franchise DT and the negotiations are going to be rather difficult. He's not going to be very happy going into June until they get the deal done and it might take right up till training camp.

[TXBRONC]

I think the Broncos are going to franchise DT and the negotiations are going to be rather difficult. He's not going to be very happy going into June until they get the deal done and it might take right up till training camp.

Clady was disappointed when Elway franchised him but they still managed to get a long term deal done.

[UnderArmour]

I'm cautiously optimistic about this. The Cowboys are unlikely to resign Dez long term, making the market price for receivers cloudy. DT's agent is going to tell him to wait, forcing us to franchise him. I think he ends up with around $13-14 million annually when all is said and done, but him and Dez will both angle for Calvin Johnson money.

[TXBRONC]

I'm cautiously optimistic about this. The Cowboys are unlikely to resign Dez long term, making the market price for receivers cloudy. DT's agent is going to tell him to wait, forcing us to franchise him. I think he ends up with around $13-14 million annually when all is said and done, but him and Dez will both angle for Calvin Johnson money.

Nah Jerry Jones will get Bryant signed long term.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If the Broncos’ don’t re-sign Demaryius Thomas in free agency, Eric Decker thinks his former teammate would look great in green.

In a phone interview with The New York Post, Decker said he spent some time with Thomas in Arizona this past week, trying to recruit the Broncos’ star receiver to New York. Thomas — who finished second in the league in regular-season receptions (111) and total receiving yards (1,619) in 2014 — is set to become an unrestricted free agent in March.

But despite Decker’s efforts, Thomas probably won’t make it to the open market. The Broncos are expected to at least franchise him, to retain his rights through the 2015 season, if not sign him to a longer-term deal.

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2015/01/30/eric-decker-trying-recruit-demaryius-thomas-new-york/32441/

[Joel]

I read that as "Decker thinks DT dumber than a sack of hammers." The Jets owner's an idiot, his team's garbage, he just replaced one GM and defensive coach with another, and the QB's Geno Smith: How much is it worth to enter that career event horizon when he's looking at close to $10 million next year even if franchised? The real money for elite players is in endorsements and merchandise; NY may be a bigger market, but the Broncos are a far better TEAM, so they can showcase his abilities instead of obscuring them with a mountain of suck.

[Northman]

I think DT is priority one above all else so either he gives a hometown discount or gets franchised he will be a Denver Bronco one way or the other. I dont see Denver letting him walk.

[Lancane]

Personally I'd tag him and trade him, partially because I don't see him worth the money he's likely to garner from the tag or from a long-term deal. Of course I am of the minority on here and do not see him as elite, he's a good receiver, but he disappears too often, doesn't adjust to aid his quarterback well, he isn't physical but he is a great route runner. I keep thinking about his recent interview where he threw his teammates under the bus and really did not place blame on himself then add the league high 80 missed attempts during the course of the season and post-season...ugh. I'd rather they re-signed Knighton and Franklin...but that is just me.

[Northman]

Personally I'd tag him and trade him, partially because I don't see him worth the money he's likely to garner from the tag or from a long-term deal. Of course I am of the minority on here and do not see him as elite, he's a good receiver, but he disappears too often, doesn't adjust to aid his quarterback well, he isn't physical but he is a great route runner. I keep thinking about his recent interview where he threw his teammates under the bus and really did not place blame on himself then add the league high 80 missed attempts during the course of the season and post-season...ugh. I'd rather they re-signed Knighton and Franklin...but that is just me.

DT has his fair share of problems but he is without a doubt the best receiver on this squad. Sanders is a good #2 but will not being able to be the kind of threat that DT is. Like i said he does have some issues that i get concerned with but the numbers also dont lie. Fact is, Denver doesnt have anyone to replace his talent at the moment so he is a must to keep.

[Lancane]

DT has his fair share of problems but he is without a doubt the best receiver on this squad. Sanders is a good #2 but will not being able to be the kind of threat that DT is. Like i said he does have some issues that i get concerned with but the numbers also dont lie. Fact is, Denver doesnt have anyone to replace his talent at the moment so he is a must to keep.

Wasn't that the argument with Brandon Marshall that you and I both made? We'd not find another receiver to cover what he brought? Yet, Brandon Lloyd had a great season, we got Decker and Thomas as well who both turned into outstanding wide receivers, not elite but pretty damn good receivers. Manning had a lot to do with where D. Thomas is at, some of it is talent but there are some lingering issues that IMHO keep him from being worth the money he's going to receive. The receiver class this year in the draft is deep as hell, we'll see 1,000 yard receivers still available in the mid rounds, and if Denver used another first round pick they got out of a deal? We have Latimer, Sanders as you said is a great number two, we can also bring in someone like Eddie Royal at the slot for less then Welker was costing or even go with someone like Wayne as a one year rental, there are options. What is Demaryius Thomas' real worth? Is he worth Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Vincent Jackson and Larry Fitzgerald money or is he worth more around Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson and Reggie Wayne type money? The difference is about half, so 14 million or 7 million...especially when that other 7 million let's them keep Knighton or Franklin? The Franchise tag would put him at 14 for one season which he's not worth IMHO.

[Northman]

Wasn't that the argument with Brandon Marshall that you and I both made? We'd not find another receiver to cover what he brought? Yet, Brandon Lloyd had a great season, we got Decker and Thomas as well who both turned into outstanding wide receivers, not elite but pretty damn good receivers. Manning had a lot to do with where D. Thomas is at, some of it is talent but there are some lingering issues that IMHO keep him from being worth the money he's going to receive. The receiver class this year in the draft is deep as hell, we'll see 1,000 yard receivers still available in the mid rounds, and if Denver used another first round pick they got out of a deal? We have Latimer, Sanders as you said is a great number two, we can also bring in someone like Eddie Royal at the slot for less then Welker was costing or even go with someone like Wayne as a one year rental, there are options. What is Demaryius Thomas' real worth? Is he worth Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Vincent Jackson and Larry Fitzgerald money or is he worth more around Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson and Reggie Wayne type money? The difference is about half, so 14 million or 7 million...especially when that other 7 million let's them keep Knighton or Franklin? The Franchise tag would put him at 14 for one season which he's not worth IMHO.

Lloyd was more of a product of the system, he hasnt replicated that since leaving Denver. Decker is good but he was a #2 receiver which we filled with Sanders.

As too the rest of your points the problem with replacing DT with a possible draft pick is,

1) They are an unknown and most likely wont show what they really have for a couple of years. Latimer has shown squat at this point and the fact he doesnt see the field much tells me he is either not ready or he hasnt done anything to justify putting him in the lineup.

2) If Manning doesnt return than yes, maybe take the chance and let DT walk. But if Manning returns he will need all the offensive help he can get.

The only thing that would remotely make it work would be to let DT walk and go after Fitzgerald.

[Lancane]

Lloyd was more of a product of the system, he hasnt replicated that since leaving Denver. Decker is good but he was a #2 receiver which we filled with Sanders.

As too the rest of your points the problem with replacing DT with a possible draft pick is,

1) They are an unknown and most likely wont show what they really have for a couple of years. Latimer has shown squat at this point and the fact he doesnt see the field much tells me he is either not ready or he hasnt done anything to justify putting him in the lineup.

2) If Manning doesnt return than yes, maybe take the chance and let DT walk. But if Manning returns he will need all the offensive help he can get.

The only thing that would remotely make it work would be to let DT walk and go after Fitzgerald.

And it could be argued that Demaryius Thomas is as much a product of a system or quarterback, look at Decker in New York - his numbers dropped not drastically but enough to give that argument some value.

Some believe that Sanders success at his position is as much of the system and Manning, look at his stats. Pittsburgh has a huge need for receiver talent, they have a good quarterback but Sanders never had numbers as he has with Manning. Now, if Manning does return could he not make Latimer a better receiver or a rookie wide receiver for that matter? I get your argument but it also folds back on you North, it's not as cut and dry as it might seem. Also, Fitzgerald could probably be had for about 7 - 8 million a year, near half of what Bryant or Thomas are likely to receive by contract or tag, now if Thomas signs a four year 33 million dollar deal then I think it's a win-win, but a four year 60 million dollar deal (which is more likely) would be too pricey and would IMHO backfire on the Broncos.

Hell, we could probably bring in Fitzgerald, Wayne and re-sign Knighton for what Thomas might get? Think about that.

[Northman]

And it could be argued that Demaryius Thomas is as much a product of a system or quarterback, look at Decker in New York - his numbers dropped not drastically but enough to give that argument some value.

Some believe that Sanders success at his position is as much of the system and Manning, look at his stats. Pittsburgh has a huge need for receiver talent, they have a good quarterback but Sanders never had numbers as he has with Manning. Now, if Manning does return could he not make Latimer a better receiver or a rookie wide receiver for that matter? I get your argument but it also folds back on you North, it's not as cut and dry as it might seem. Also, Fitzgerald could probably be had for about 7 - 8 million a year, near half of what Bryant or Thomas are likely to receive by contract or tag, now if Thomas signs a four year 33 million dollar deal then I think it's a win-win, but a four year 60 million dollar deal (which is more likely) would be too pricey and would IMHO backfire on the Broncos.

Hell, we could probably bring in Fitzgerald, Wayne and re-sign Knighton for what Thomas might get? Think about that.

I dont know, i dont see DT being quite as bad as you perceive. I see far more positives than negatives, plus the guy has stated he will take less to stay so we shall see.

[GEM]

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2015/01/30/eric-decker-trying-recruit-demaryius-thomas-new-york/32441/

I just saw this after I posted the article in a separate thread. Sorry Carol!

[Lancane]

I dont know, i dont see DT being quite as bad as you perceive. I see far more positives than negatives, plus the guy has stated he will take less to stay so we shall see.

It's not that he is bad North, he is a good receiver but there are things that he lacks which stops him from being great and worth that 14 million plus range.

[Jsteve01]

I dont know, i dont see DT being quite as bad as you perceive. I see far more positives than negatives, plus the guy has stated he will take less to stay so we shall see.

It's not that he is bad North, he is a good receiver but there are things that he lacks which stops him from being great and worth that 14 million plus range.. I don't devalue him like you, but I did say after the SB And getting punked by Talib in the AFC championship that if he had a nastier demeanor ala dez, he might even push Megatron for top receiver in the league his physical skill set combined with his route running are elite. His lack of killer instinct definitely drops him a bit

[dogfish]

calvin johnson's not worth calvin johnson money. . .

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Numbers don't lie, and the numbers say he's elite; and don't give me any mumbo-jumbo about it being a product of Manning. DT put up elite numbers with Tebow.

I'm sure there are 30 other fan bases that would love to whine about his shortcomings. It's taken Denver 50 years to find a talent like him, and you guys are all wet if think we'll find anyone to replace him anytime soon.

You can cash that check son. :laugh:

[Lancane]

. I don't devalue him like you, but I did say after the SB And getting punked by Talib in the AFC championship that if he had a nastier demeanor ala dez, he might even push Megatron for top receiver in the league his physical skill set combined with his route running are elite. His lack of killer instinct definitely drops him a bit

It's not devaluing if it's true. He has the physical attributes to be so much more, and how many receivers are elite just because of their route running ability? If I devalue him there are those overvaluing him. Besides route running he is pretty good at separating from defenders to make the catch when he actually tries...He disappears often, he struggles to maintain blocks and is easily pushed aside, he shies away from contact a lot and often takes the less physical end of the play, he doesn't fight for the ball and allows defenders to move him out of position and while he has good hands sometimes they hit his hands and he can not maintain a grip or easily lets the ball fall away for an incompletion? I know people like to believe that 5% drops is not bad, calculate that over a season, he had a league high 80 missed attempts, the average is 40 among great and elite receivers and Manning can not be blamed when J.T., Welker and Sanders had half that number and closer to the average. As I said, he's hot and cold.

To be elite IMHO you have to have to be more physical from whistle to whistle, you have to be willing to mix it up with a defender rather then allow them to dictate where you go and screw up your timing, you can not always rely on routes and separation, you have to be able to read your quarterback beyond the route and make plays for the ball instead of taking the play off because it's easier or too much for you to break for the ball, especially when you are within the vicinity to make the play and you have to sometimes fight for yards instead of making for the sideline or allowing the quick tackle to end the play.

Despite what he lacks, I would love to see him return to Denver (so don't get me wrong) as I've said before I hate homegrown talent leaving, but at 14 million a season - he is not worth it, if at 7 million a season it is.

[Lancane]

Numbers don't lie, and the numbers say he's elite; and don't give me any mumbo-jumbo about it being a product of Manning. DT put up elite numbers with Tebow.

I'm sure there are 30 other fan bases that would love to whine about his shortcomings. It's taken Denver 50 years to find a talent like him, and you guys are all wet if think we'll find anyone to replace him anytime soon.

You can cash that check son. :laugh:

LMAO...He did not put up elite numbers with Tim Tebow at quarterback, Demaryius Thomas did not have those kind of stats till Manning came, so your stats do lie.

It has not taken 50 years for Denver to find a talent like him, now I know you been smoking and not tobacco...Rod Smith and Brandon Marshall are both better then D. Thomas, hell Lloyd had a thousand yards in Denver, Javon Walker did as well and so did Ashley Lelie. Thomas showed flashes, but it is easily arguable that Manning made Demaryius, hell if Thomas get's 14 million he should pay 5% to Manning for making it happen.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

LMAO...He did not put up elite numbers with Tim Tebow at quarterback, Demaryius Thomas did not have those kind of stats till Manning came, so your stats do lie.

It has not taken 50 years for Denver to find a talent like him, now I know you been smoking and not tobacco...Rod Smith and Brandon Marshall are both better then D. Thomas, hell Lloyd had a thousand yards in Denver, Javon Walker did as well and so did Ashley Lelie. Thomas showed flashes, but it is easily arguable that Manning made Demaryius, hell if Thomas get's 14 million he should pay 5% to Manning for making it happen.

The year we went to the playoffs with Tebow he led the league in receiving yards the last 5 weeks of the season, then had 300 yards in 2 playoff games. That's elite...

The only thing gettin' smoked in here is you. :D

:cheers:

[Lancane]

The year we went to the playoffs with Tebow he led the league in receiving yards the last 5 weeks of the season, then had 300 yards in 2 playoff games. That's elite...

The only thing gettin' smoked in here is you. :D

:cheers:

Brandon Lloyd had 419 yards receiving within a three game stretch in 2010 with Kyle Orton as his quarterback...I guess he's elite as well. ;)

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Brandon Lloyd had 419 yards receiving within a three game stretch in 2010 with Kyle Orton as his quarterback...I guess he's elite as well. ;)

Brandon had a one year stretch where he was one of the best pay making wr's in the league. DT has been putting up elite numbers for 3.5 years. He does things only 2 or 3 guys in the league can do.

[Lancane]

Brandon had a one year stretch where he was one of the best pay making wr's in the league. DT has been putting up elite numbers for 3.5 years. He does things only 2 or 3 guys in the league can do.

And what are those things?

Look, no need to get your undies in a twist bro. we all know the kid is going to get his money - I just do not buy that he is elite (so freaking what), we all have players we believe something about that others do not share. Is he a great wide receiver? Yes. So shouldn't that be good enough?

39 million between Manning, D. Thomas and Sanders isn't too much is it? Oops, I mean 42.5 million. Manning would actually receive 21.5 million for 2015, guess about 14 million for Thomas tagged, maybe 4 million less if signed long-term with a heavier backend contract and Sanders near 5.8 million.

[Joel]

The year we went to the playoffs with Tebow he led the league in receiving yards the last 5 weeks of the season, then had 300 yards in 2 playoff games. That's elite...
At the time, DTs receiving yards vs. Pitt in 2011 were a playoff RECORD—until the next day, when Megatron did better by (IIRC) 14 yds. That's a good argument DT's our Megatron, deserving Megatron money.

[Lancane]

At the time, DTs receiving yards vs. Pitt in 2011 were a playoff RECORD—until the next day, when Megatron did better by (IIRC) 14 yds. That's a good argument DT's our Megatron, deserving Megatron money.

So you think Demaryius Thomas is worth 20 million a year? Because that is what Megatron makes each of the next three seasons...(((Okay)))

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

My undies ain't twisted. I'm very free.

[Lancane]

My undies ain't twisted. I'm very free.

ROFL... Well, we all believe in Freedom. :beer:

[silkamilkamonico]

Dthomas is elite IMHO despite his garbage effort in Denver's biggest game not withstanding. But I think he is elite. I also think he plays the wrong position in terms of dishing out that kind of money being the basis of a SuperBowl team. How many elite WR's did we watch yesterday? 0? How many really good ones? 0? 1? Does that midget Edelman even count? He couldn't hold DThomas jock strap. But he also isn't harboring a good percentage portion of their salary cap, assuming DTHomas is getting paid what he's worth.

How many elite WR's (top 5) have won SuperBowls the last 5 years. How many even got their team to the SuperBowl? Yea - I don't want to put $20 million into a position that is completely predicated on it's QB to be successful. And despite what anyone thinks, any WR needs a QB to get them the ball and make $15-$20 million.

[Lancane]

Dthomas is elite IMHO despite his garbage effort in Denver's biggest game not withstanding. But I think he is elite. I also think he plays the wrong position in terms of dishing out that kind of money being the basis of a SuperBowl team. How many elite WR's did we watch yesterday? 0? How many really good ones? 0? 1? Does that midget Edelman even count? He couldn't hold DThomas jock strap. But he also isn't harboring a good percentage portion of their salary cap, assuming DTHomas is getting paid what he's worth.

How many elite WR's (top 5) have won SuperBowls the last 5 years. How many even got their team to the SuperBowl? Yea - I don't want to put $20 million into a position that is completely predicated on it's QB to be successful. And despite what anyone thinks, any WR needs a QB to get them the ball and make $15-$20 million.

Here's how I see it Silk, if you are building a team and you can pick two receivers (similar to the Pro Bowl formula) does Demaryius Thomas make the cut? Let's say that you have Jerry Rice in his prime, Calvin Johnson, Tim Brown in his prime, Andre Johnson, etc. Does Demaryius Thomas actually make your team? I don't see him as elite, he has the ability to be elite, but quite honestly I believe like some have said about Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, it was Manning who made them who they became which is not elite just really great receivers with a really great quarterback. Brandon Marshall IMHO is elite, he has been a continual Pro Bowl receiver everywhere he's gone and played with **** or mundane quarterbacks, he made Orton look like a franchise quarterback for a season. Stafford is more because of Megatron, imagine his numbers without Johnson. Some receivers are made, but elite receivers just are and can play with anyone.

But I agree with the second part completely. Last year when the Broncos had to choose between Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas, I think Decker would have been the smarter choice. His salary for this year is 6.5 million, you telling me an elite quarterback couldn't win with Decker/Sanders/Welker? I daresay give all three to Brady and he'd likely still be holding the Lombardi, what about Flacco or Wilson? We could make the argument that Rodgers is so good that he makes receivers just like Manning. But Demaryius Thomas if tagged will make 17.5, if Denver signs him long-term then he'll still be up there around 14 million on the low end, and let's hope Elway doesn't buy the hype and gives him Megatron money which is higher then the tag price. Between Manning and Thomas they eat a quarter of the cap easily between just them.

[pedrohmlima]

And,maybe, in the post-Manning Era will be a big problem having a big part of salary cap in one receiver, considering that probably the offense will be completelly reshaped

[silkamilkamonico]

Here's how I see it Silk, if you are building a team and you can pick two receivers (similar to the Pro Bowl formula) does Demaryius Thomas make the cut? Let's say that you have Jerry Rice in his prime, Calvin Johnson, Tim Brown in his prime, Andre Johnson, etc. Does Demaryius Thomas actually make your team? I don't see him as elite, he has the ability to be elite, but quite honestly I believe like some have said about Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, it was Manning who made them who they became which is not elite just really great receivers with a really great quarterback. Brandon Marshall IMHO is elite, he has been a continual Pro Bowl receiver everywhere he's gone and played with **** or mundane quarterbacks, he made Orton look like a franchise quarterback for a season. Stafford is more because of Megatron, imagine his numbers without Johnson. Some receivers are made, but elite receivers just are and can play with anyone.




In my trying to stay objective viewpoint about it, yes. I have had enough conversations over the last year or so with various fans of other teams and absolutely would a common theme be DThomas is a legitimate top 2-3 WR. There would be arguments for maybe 4-5 WR's in those top 2 - some would not have Thomas on the list, others would. He's that good IMHO where you could create an equal argument for him just like others (with the exception of Megatron who all probably favored)

[Ravage!!!]

I think Harrison and Wayne were great nontheless....however, I"m agreeing with Silk on this one. I personally don't put DT in the "elite" WR group. I thought he had made that step up after the way he played in the Super Bowl...but this year he dropped down. However, Manning wasn't playing as well, so I know its symbiotic relationship. But I would rather spend the money on other positions. Personally, I would rather have a stud TE for a young QB than a DT. I'd rather have a monster MLB (although we are now moving to a 34). Can I find decent WRs in FA? I think we can. I think we did last year.

But as Silk stated....how many top WRs were in that game last night? Not a single one.

[MOtorboat]

Second in the entire league in receptions and yards. Definitely a step back.

[Ravage!!!]

Second in the entire league in receptions and yards. Definitely a step back.

THis is the same old argument.... stats don't END the discussion, they start it. You really think he's the second best WR in the NFL because of that stat? Yes, I think he took a step back. Watching him play showed me that, just as it showed me that Manning wasn't playing well from early in the season despite you telling me all his stats. I don't WATCH football from a stat print-off.

[Lancane]

Second in the entire league in receptions and yards. Definitely a step back.

He was targeted more this season then last season or the season before, he also had a league high 80 missed attempts (dropped passes, passes that he missed completely or were batted away) that is pretty bad Mo.

[MOtorboat]

I pretty thoroughly disagree.

[Lancane]

I agree Rav, Denver would be better spending the money at other key positions; had Denver kept Decker added Sanders, even with Welker their combined salary makes up what Demaryius is likely to get via the tag or long-term contract. That's almost insane, tally what Seattle and New England pay between their quarterbacks and receivers compared to the Broncos if they keep Thomas and it's just as insane. Tagged Demaryius Thomas will make about 17.5, Manning is due 21.5 so 39 million for the two, if they don't decide to pay him Megatron money then we'll be looking at 41 to 42 million between just those two?

[Ravage!!!]

I agree Rav, Denver would be better spending the money at other key positions; had Denver kept Decker added Sanders, even with Welker their combined salary makes up what Demaryius is likely to get via the tag or long-term contract. That's almost insane, tally what Seattle and New England pay between their quarterbacks and receivers compared to the Broncos if they keep Thomas and it's just as insane. Tagged Demaryius Thomas will make about 17.5, Manning is due 21.5 so 39 million for the two, if they don't decide to pay him Megatron money then we'll be looking at 41 to 42 million between just those two?

Seattle had the benefit of only having to pay Wilson third round money. That's about to change, though. It's MUCH easier to build a team when you don't have to pay your QB much money.

But considering the production of WRs in the NFL today, and the rules that benefit the WR to such high degrees, that I don't think we need a top WR. I hate to sy that because I REALLY like DT's personality and think he's a GREAT guy. I love the he's about to be paid, because there are few players that I truly love to see get paid top dollar, but he's one of them. However, I would love to spend that money on other spots.

[Lancane]

Seattle had the benefit of only having to pay Wilson third round money. That's about to change, though. It's MUCH easier to build a team when you don't have to pay your QB much money.

But considering the production of WRs in the NFL today, and the rules that benefit the WR to such high degrees, that I don't think we need a top WR. I hate to sy that because I REALLY like DT's personality and think he's a GREAT guy. I love the he's about to be paid, because there are few players that I truly love to see get paid top dollar, but he's one of them. However, I would love to spend that money on other spots.

Brady is set to make only make's 14 million next year, Flacco 14.5 and Wilson's will go up, but those quarterbacks making 15 plus million are not the one's winning Super Bowls, they're making the playoffs (Romo, Brees, Rodgers and Manning) but they are not winning championships. And neither are top tier wide receivers...New England failed with Moss, Philadelphia failed with Owens, but some don't see the facts, just the stats.

[Joel]

So you think Demaryius Thomas is worth 20 million a year? Because that is what Megatron makes each of the next three seasons...(((Okay)))
Rotoworld says he gets $12½ million next year, and DT's probably worth that. After that they show Megatron going up to $16 million in 2016 plus another $½ million the next two years, but I'll be surprised if even the Lions ACTUALLY pay him $17 million when he's 33 in 2018: They have a buy back option for that and his $18¼ million 2019 salary; if exercised they only pay him 3½ for those years, not $35 million. His contract's heavily backloaded so they could get away with paying him a measly $5 million this year (I'm CERTAIN DT's worth that) and few players >30 get all their backloaded contracts.


He was targeted more this season then last season or the season before, he also had a league high 80 missed attempts (dropped passes, passes that he missed completely or were batted away) that is pretty bad Mo.
He also played hurt nearly all year, so people can come online and complain about how soft he is. After he left the SB with a separated shoulder but returned to set a SB completions record: Wuss. :rolleyes:

As far as the "Brady doesn't need great WRs" argument, did everyone sleep through the past 5 years as everyone ELSE commented on how Brady turns to crap ANY TIME Gronk's hurt? Just a few months ago the talk was about whether Belicheat would cut him or he'd just gracefully retire, but then Gronk and Edelman (the only legit WR on that whole team) got healthy and now everything's fine.

[tomjonesrocks]

Even moreso than JT, I see no reason why DT wouldn't mature and get even better in the near future.

He has had some rough drops but showed up in the SB last year, and with Kubiak I guarantee he will be put in positions regularly where teams can't do a damn thing to stop him.

Franchising him and paying big money is a no brainier. And JFE always structures deals so he has an out worst case.

DT walking can't and won't happen.

[dogfish]

Brady is set to make only make's 14 million next year, Flacco 14.5 and Wilson's will go up, but those quarterbacks making 15 plus million are not the one's winning Super Bowls, they're making the playoffs (Romo, Brees, Rodgers and Manning) but they are not winning championships. And neither are top tier wide receivers...New England failed with Moss, Philadelphia failed with Owens, but some don't see the facts, just the stats.

cane, i totally hear ya on this-- have said it before myself about paying WRs. . .

i don't know, though. . . we're going to lose some guys this off-season, that we all know. . . you do have to keep some, though. . . this team certainly shouldn't be in a mode to dump lots of young veteran talent, that doesn't make sense. . . granted, i myself would prioritize knighton, then some of the others. . . but i think it's awfully tough to lose DT and julius in one off-season. . . you almost can't let that happen regardless, but it makes even less sense if manning IS back. . . whatever we here happen to think, there's just no way an organization pays peyton what we owe him next year if you don't think it's still possible for him to give you a shot at a title. . . and if you do think that, you know you gotta give him weapons. . .

personally, i'll take DT's flaws over JT's, even at a higher price. . . at least bebe has stayed on the field most of the time since his first year or two. . . and i think you're drunk if you're ACTUALLY concerned that JFE could give him calvin johnson money. . . that is never happening. . . if DT wants more than 13-14 per, i think you almost have to franchise him, to buy yourself a year to see what you have with latimer-- and possibly draft one more as well. . .

maaaybe you let him go if manning does happen to retire. . . but it kinda sucks to doom your new QB to probable failure if he suddenly doesn't have any weapons. . . love sanders, but he's not a one-- and i can't believe that cody is ready to be, either. . . given my concerns about franklin's fit in the ZBS-- and the value you can get drafting interior OLs-- i would find it tough to keep him over DT. . . i don't know, we'll see. . . but the cap is going up, and von next year won't be the only guy getting paid. . . just gotta wait a bit and see who they choose. . .

:defense:

[Lancane]

Rotoworld says he gets $12½ million next year, and DT's probably worth that. After that they show Megatron going up to $16 million in 2016 plus another $½ million the next two years, but I'll be surprised if even the Lions ACTUALLY pay him $17 million when he's 33 in 2018: They have a buy back option for that and his $18¼ million 2019 salary; if exercised they only pay him 3½ for those years, not $35 million. His contract's heavily backloaded so they could get away with paying him a measly $5 million this year (I'm CERTAIN DT's worth that) and few players >30 get all their backloaded contracts.

My bad, my calculations got skewed, I accidentally calculated based on quarterbacks. So I was off, by about 6 million. He gets 12.5 via franchise tag and they’re basing that on the cap’s projected jump to 142 million for 2015. According to one source they expect Demaryius’ agent to demand at least what Jordy Nelson received from Green Bay (4 years, 39 million) but could well demand Calvin Johnson money, who will receive 20 million in 2015, 24 million in 2016 and 21 million in 2017. There are several clauses in Johnson’s contract, but I don’t believe the buy back option is viable in 2015 from what I’ve read, that is only viable for the final two years I believe and no way in my opinion do the Lions get away paying the top receiver in the league a mere 5 million. Is Demaryius worth 5 million? Yes. Is he worth 10 million? Yes. Is he worth 15 million plus? No.


He also played hurt nearly all year, so people can come online and complain about how soft he is. After he left the SB with a separated shoulder but returned to set a SB completions record: Wuss. :rolleyes:

As far as the "Brady doesn't need great WRs" argument, did everyone sleep through the past 5 years as everyone ELSE commented on how Brady turns to crap ANY TIME Gronk's hurt? Just a few months ago the talk was about whether Belicheat would cut him or he'd just gracefully retire, but then Gronk and Edelman (the only legit WR on that whole team) got healthy and now everything's fine.

Joel, there is a difference between being a physical player and being physically or mentally tough. Did I ever accuse him of being weak, or did I question his physicality on the field? There is a difference. And while I agree that part of those 80 missed attempts could be due to quarterback play and injury, it’s still near double the average for the league and he is far from the only receiver to be hurt, Julius Thomas was injured this year and he was closer to the league average...part of that does fall on Demaryius no matter if you want it to or not.

Brady? Flacco won with great receivers? Did Wilson? Or how about Manning’s little brother? - And you just said it, Edelman (the only legit receiver) so does overpaying for receivers actual do much of anything? Let alone a top five receiver? If Demaryius Thomas comes back for say (4 years 40 million) then I am all for it, but several people believe he’ll ask for closer to (4 years 60 million), especially since they believe that his agent will see what teams are willing to pay, and teams like Miami, Cleveland, New York (Jets), Oakland and so on could well overpay for his services. But more then Demaryius returning, I have a bigger problem paying Manning 21.5 for 2015, especially given the other needs we have.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Let's not pretend Brady doesn't have weapons. Gronk is a matchup nightmare and is the best TE in football (gets paid handsomely too). Some believe he's the most dominant offensive player in the league.

[Lancane]

Let's not pretend Brady doesn't have weapons. Gronk is a matchup nightmare and is the best TE in football (gets paid handsomely too). Some believe he's the most dominant offensive player in the league.

No, we're not arguing weapons, we're arguing the value of paying top tier receivers over spreading it out to various positions including tight end, etc. Fact is that most of the teams to win this decade did so without great or elite receivers, but good receivers and good players throughout their perspective squads. Let's say we kept Decker and let Thomas go, do you believe that Brady, Flacco or Wilson couldn't win a Super Bowl with Decker/Sanders/Welker? Remember that Philadelphia tried that with Owens, that New England tried that with Moss, both backfired. It's simply a matter of perspective Al, however if D. Thomas is willing to take less then his worth to return to Denver then I am all for it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Philly made a SB with Owens as did NE with Moss (while going 17-1). That is far from back firing.

[dogfish]

however it works out, let's give the duke a lot of credit where a lot is due. . . he recognized our MOST important pending free agent, and got that guy locked up with no worries. . .


give me chris harris over any of the rest of 'em, every day and twice on sundays. . .

[Bronco9798]

I'm really glad none of us are in a position to make these decisions. Broncos would really be ******.

[Jsteve01]

however it works out, let's give the duke a lot of credit where a lot is due. . . he recognized our MOST important pending free agent, and got that guy locked up with no worries. . .


give me chris harris over any of the rest of 'em, every day and twice on sundays. . .plus 10. Great point

[Jsteve01]

I agree Rav, Denver would be better spending the money at other key positions; had Denver kept Decker added Sanders, even with Welker their combined salary makes up what Demaryius is likely to get via the tag or long-term contract. That's almost insane, tally what Seattle and New England pay between their quarterbacks and receivers compared to the Broncos if they keep Thomas and it's just as insane. Tagged Demaryius Thomas will make about 17.5, Manning is due 21.5 so 39 million for the two, if they don't decide to pay him Megatron money then we'll be looking at 41 to 42 million between just those two?. I'll play dvils's advocate here. Different sport but the nuggets are floundering right now because they have no superstars
If we can just for a moment find middle ground and say his drop percentage was avg actually a few points better than Brandon Marshall so perhaps the missed targets were also due to poor qb decisions. And if I can get you to set aside the assertion that he's not elite, if you're trying to sell me on the idea that decker, welker and sanders and some other above average player is a better option then I'd humbly disagree. Decker isn't a game changer. He doesn't get separation and trips over his own feet. DT brings fear to opposing dB's he just does. He changes defensive game plans. Sanders may get there. This team needs game changers

[Ravage!!!]

. I'll play dvils's advocate here. Different sport but the nuggets are floundering right now because they have no superstars
If we can just for a moment find middle ground and say his drop percentage was avg actually a few points better than Brandon Marshall so perhaps the missed targets were also due to poor qb decisions. And if I can get you to set aside the assertion that he's not elite, if you're trying to sell me on the idea that decker, welker and sanders and some other above average player is a better option then I'd humbly disagree. Decker isn't a game changer. He doesn't get separation and trips over his own feet. DT brings fear to opposing dB's he just does. He changes defensive game plans. Sanders may get there. This team needs game changers

You are completely wrong on Decker's skill set, as that has been shown time and time again. Especially our woes in the red zone this year. But that's for another time. I get the boards seem to want to jump on certain players and its the "cool" thing to do.

But he's saying that the positions you can pay for that are used up in players like DT can be used in positions that can make the difference in a team. If what you are saying is true, how is it that time and time again teams are winning Super Bowls without the TOP WRs? Al Wilson made the point that teams have GONE to the SUper Bowl with those WRs, but they aren't winning them. Isn't that the point?

Do I think that a WR corp or Sanders, Decker, Welker, some medium FA WR, JT with a stud Offensive line (that you can use that money to get a good FA) can be just as deadly as the offense we have now? Absolutely. Sure DT is better than the other guys on the roster, but the additional FA that coudl be signed would be HUGE to this team. Look how Seattle was able to build their team because of the SAVED money they didn't have to pay their QB? It's the same situation.

[TXBRONC]

Call me greedy but I prefer having the best talent possible at every position.

[Ravage!!!]

Call me greedy but I prefer having the best talent possible at every position.

Me too.... would be nice if a team could afford to do that. ALthough, then Seattle, Washington and Dallas would own all the good players.

[Lancane]

Philly made a SB with Owens as did NE with Moss (while going 17-1). That is far from back firing.

Did they win or lose Al? Green Bay won with good receivers, but are they great or elite? Some may be great, but they are not Calvin Johnson. Detroit has the quarterback, receiver, running game and had the defense, why have they not made it to the big game? Part of it is coaching; coaches like Carroll, Harbaugh and Belichick get their players to buy in to their philosophies and the organization, they believe. The other part is because no one player is bigger then the whole, when you start treating them as though they are then others want that treatment and soon you are the Dallas Cowboys, good team with bad leadership and too many me-me players.

[Lancane]

Call me greedy but I prefer having the best talent possible at every position.

Okay Greedy, my name is Reality - while that would be great it just is never going to happen. Every time you pay one player of such and such status you then have another, say Knighton who could be lost due to who you prioritize. Does Denver have great defensive ends for the 3-4? No, they're adequate, maybe solid but not great or elite. Inside linebackers? Safety? Center? Guard? etc., etc.

I think it was Madden who once said that the key is not talent but being united that makes a team. Great talent here and there makes a team shine, but they are also likely to burn out like a falling star sooner rather then later, but solid players throughout the roster who believe in their teammates, they burn brighter and longer.

[Northman]

You are completely wrong on Decker's skill set, as that has been shown time and time again. Especially our woes in the red zone this year. But that's for another time. I get the boards seem to want to jump on certain players and its the "cool" thing to do.

But he's saying that the positions you can pay for that are used up in players like DT can be used in positions that can make the difference in a team. If what you are saying is true, how is it that time and time again teams are winning Super Bowls without the TOP WRs? Al Wilson made the point that teams have GONE to the SUper Bowl with those WRs, but they aren't winning them. Isn't that the point?

Do I think that a WR corp or Sanders, Decker, Welker, some medium FA WR, JT with a stud Offensive line (that you can use that money to get a good FA) can be just as deadly as the offense we have now? Absolutely. Sure DT is better than the other guys on the roster, but the additional FA that coudl be signed would be HUGE to this team. Look how Seattle was able to build their team because of the SAVED money they didn't have to pay their QB? It's the same situation.

I agree with this. I think it was painfully obvious this year that no matter how many "big" names you have on your roster if you dont have the quality depth behind them than you end up like Denver did this year, one and done.

[Bronco9798]

I agree with this. I think it was painfully obvious this year that no matter how many "big" names you have on your roster if you dont have the quality depth behind them than you end up like Denver did this year, one and done.

Do you really blame our depth for not getting further in the playoffs. I'm not sure I would. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Northman]

Do you really blame our depth for not getting further in the playoffs. I'm not sure I would. Maybe I'm missing something.

I think it was certainly a part of it. Mental toughness and coaching were a bigger part of it but i think not having quality depth when you need does hurt like it or not which is why i agree with Lan and Ravage that you dont necessarily have to have 4-5 big names on a team to get the job done. Outside of Brady and Gronk there really isnt any big time name i would consider elite at their position. Im all for DT coming back if he takes the hometown discount because i think we need to really start adding quality depth so that other guys on this team dont feel like they have to play through injuries or we dont lose quality play when they go down.

[Bronco9798]

I think it was certainly a part of it. Mental toughness and coaching were a bigger part of it but i think not having quality depth when you need does hurt like it or not which is why i agree with Lan and Ravage that you dont necessarily have to have 4-5 big names on a team to get the job done. Outside of Brady and Gronk there really isnt any big time name i would consider elite at their position. Im all for DT coming back if he takes the hometown discount because i think we need to really start adding quality depth so that other guys on this team dont feel like they have to play through injuries or we dont lose quality play when they go down.

I hear you and I agree with you. I really though our depth was good until the two back up LB's played late in the season in the Bengals game. They were awful. I forgot their names. But overall I thought our depth was pretty good.

[Lancane]

Do you really blame our depth for not getting further in the playoffs. I'm not sure I would. Maybe I'm missing something.

Denver has how many great players, I am not talking good, but great to elite? How many solid to good and how many are less then stellar? It's obvious that the offensive line had less then solid players which forced Denver who lacked even better depth to make changes that literally altered their effectiveness as a unit. When you have quality depth and someone above them goes down, then even if less effective the others help make that player more then he is, when depth is so horrible that all becomes lost, then yes it messes with the whole of that unit and likewise the team.

[Bronco9798]

Denver has how many great players, I am not talking good, but great to elite? How many solid to good and how many are less then stellar? It's obvious that the offensive line had less then solid players which forced Denver who lacked even better depth to make changes that literally altered their effectiveness as a unit. When you have quality depth and someone above them goes down, then even if less effective the others help make that player more then he is, when depth is so horrible that all becomes lost, then yes it messes with the whole of that unit and likewise the team.

I understand what depth is and how important it is. I merely stated I didn't think our depth was a reason we went 1 and out in the playoffs.

[Lancane]

I understand what depth is and how important it is. I merely stated I didn't think our depth was a reason we went 1 and out in the playoffs.

No, it's only part. There was so much involved in the fiasco from poor coaching, questionable leadership, lack of drive, cowardice, lack of depth, no heart. It was a complete mental cluster ****!

[Jsteve01]

. I'll play dvils's advocate here. Different sport but the nuggets are floundering right now because they have no superstars
If we can just for a moment find middle ground and say his drop percentage was avg actually a few points better than Brandon Marshall so perhaps the missed targets were also due to poor qb decisions. And if I can get you to set aside the assertion that he's not elite, if you're trying to sell me on the idea that decker, welker and sanders and some other above average player is a better option then I'd humbly disagree. Decker isn't a game changer. He doesn't get separation and trips over his own feet. DT brings fear to opposing dB's he just does. He changes defensive game plans. Sanders may get there. This team needs game changers

You are completely wrong on Decker's skill set, as that has been shown time and time again. Especially our woes in the red zone this year. But that's for another time. I get the boards seem to want to jump on certain players and its the "cool" thing to do.

But he's saying that the positions you can pay for that are used up in players like DT can be used in positions that can make the difference in a team. If what you are saying is true, how is it that time and time again teams are winning Super Bowls without the TOP WRs? Al Wilson made the point that teams have GONE to the SUper Bowl with those WRs, but they aren't winning them. Isn't that the point?

Do I think that a WR corp or Sanders, Decker, Welker, some medium FA WR, JT with a stud Offensive line (that you can use that money to get a good FA) can be just as deadly as the offense we have now? Absolutely. Sure DT is better than the other guys on the roster, but the additional FA that coudl be signed would be HUGE to this team. Look how Seattle was able to build their team because of the SAVED money they didn't have to pay their QB? It's the same situation.. I'm not bashing Decker but their numbers heads up when they are on the same team are a fair representation of what they bring to the table. He is a very good red zone threat but he's not a game changer

[Ravage!!!]

. I'm not bashing Decker but their numbers heads up when they are on the same team are a fair representation of what they bring to the table. He is a very good red zone threat but he's not a game changer

Again, a discussion for a nother thread/time, but what does being a "game changer" have anything to to with it? Would you say Edelman is a "game changer?"

[Lancane]

Eric Decker had Geno Smith for a quarterback, do you know how many times he was targeted? 115, he caught 74 (league average is 40 missed attempts) he had 41, Demaryius Thomas had 80 between the regular season and post-season this year. Decker had 60 missed attempts in 2013 with Manning as his quarterback, Demaryius Thomas is 2013 was targeted 181 times between the season and post-season, he missed 61 attempts that year. Hell, let's go back to the 'Year of Tebow', Demaryius Thomas is 2011 was targeted 86 times, he caught 42 passes, so he had 44 missed attempts that season (with freaking Tebow), Eric Decker that year was targeted 96 times, he made 44 catches that is 52 missed attempts. Demaryius and Decker with a better quarterback had higher missed attempts then with crappy quarterbacks? How the hell does that work?

[Northman]

All i know is Decker still almost had 1,000 yds receiving in NY this past year. With those QB's? In that offense? Lol

Decker may not be Dez Bryant, he may not even be DT. But he is damn good and i think some people under-appreciated his worth and how good he was for us. And yes, ill say it now. I think Manning did miss him being here this year as in some way Deck was his security blanket. I get why Deck is gone and best of luck to him but people saying he really wasnt as good or that Manning made him is completely wrong. Dude can play.

[Lancane]

All i know is Decker still almost had 1,000 yds receiving in NY this past year. With those QB's? In that offense? Lol

Decker may not be Dez Bryant, he may not even be DT. But he is damn good and i think some people under-appreciated his worth and how good he was for us. And yes, ill say it now. I think Manning did miss him being here this year as in some way Deck was his security blanket. I get why Deck is gone and best of luck to him but people saying he really wasnt as good or that Manning made him is completely wrong. Dude can play.

Amen. I'd trade D. Thomas to New York for E. Decker and their 2nd Round Pick in a freaking heartbeat.

[Bronco9798]

Amen. I'd trade D. Thomas to New York for E. Decker and their 2nd Round Pick in a freaking heartbeat.

6567

[Slick]

I'm still trying to rationalize why you think 80 missed targets are on DT, Lancane.

We're talking about a guy who caught 111 balls, had over 1600 yards and 11 touchdowns.

Blame him for the drops, but simply being targeted and not making a play? Way too many variables to lay blame on him for those.

[Lancane]

I'm still trying to rationalize why you think 80 missed targets are on DT, Lancane.

We're talking about a guy who caught 111 balls, had over 1600 yards and 11 touchdowns.

Blame him for the drops, but simply being targeted and not making a play? Way too many variables to lay blame on him for those.

Actually if you calculate his drop % per game then that is a huge chunk of the 80 missed attempts, part of it could be on the quarterback but why would Thomas and Decker have a lower attempt to miss ratio with less accurate quarterback? The league average is 40 attempts that includes drops, so he had near double? Joel would argue that he was injured or hurt, but last year Decker and Thomas both were 60 plus in that category, 20 above the league average? If you can figure out the variable then you tell me, because in truth it makes little sense, you add 20 for injuries but even healthy he has missed more attempts then the league average.

[Slick]

Actually if you calculate his drop % per game then that is a huge chunk of the 80 missed attempts, part of it could be on the quarterback but why would Thomas and Decker have a lower attempt to miss ratio with less accurate quarterback? The league average is 40 attempts that includes drops, so he had near double? Joel would argue that he was injured or hurt, but last year Decker and Thomas both were 60 plus in that category, 20 above the league average? If you can figure out the variable then you tell me, because in truth it makes little sense, you add 20 for injuries but even healthy he has missed more attempts then the league average.

How many of those 80 missed targets were drops? I'm serching but can't find anything.

[Bronco9798]

Actually if you calculate his drop % per game then that is a huge chunk of the 80 missed attempts, part of it could be on the quarterback but why would Thomas and Decker have a lower attempt to miss ratio with less accurate quarterback? The league average is 40 attempts that includes drops, so he had near double? Joel would argue that he was injured or hurt, but last year Decker and Thomas both were 60 plus in that category, 20 above the league average? If you can figure out the variable then you tell me, because in truth it makes little sense, you add 20 for injuries but even healthy he has missed more attempts then the league average.

You're too enamored with your 80 number there. 10 games over 100 yards, played all 16 games, 11 TD's. etc., You would really trade DT for Decker and a NO#2. Maybe I'm in the minority but that's just not very well thought out.

I would love to go back and watch all 80 you're talking about and see what the situation was for each one. It wasn't 80 dropped balls.

[Lancane]

6567

I didn't say you would 9er, I said I would. I would also take that money he was going to get and bring in Da'Norris Searcy, Rolando McClain, Jared Odrick and then re-sign Terrance Knighton. Defense wins Championships, well I'd give Coach Phillips the chance to prove that.

[Lancane]

How many of those 80 missed targets were drops? I'm serching but can't find anything.

Not sure, I believe last year he was 5%, you could look at dropped passes per team but that would not give you his percentage. Let me see what I can find.

[Lancane]

You're too enamored with your 80 number there. 10 games over 100 yards, played all 16 games, 11 TD's. etc., You would really trade DT for Decker and a NO#2. Maybe I'm in the minority but that's just not very well thought out.

I would love to go back and watch all 80 you're talking about and see what the situation was for each one. It wasn't 80 dropped balls.

And your too enamored with padded stat sheets. What I bring up is a viable and concerning facts, do you know that most major news outlets ran stories about Thomas and his dropped passes in 2014? Before he was even injured? I guess they're too enamored as well. Did he have a great season? Statistically he had a great season, but stats do not tell the whole story, hell we saw Brian Griese win the NFL Passing Title, we saw Javon Walker, Ashley Lelie and Brandon Lloyd have career years, but there is always more to the story then what is being shown or said. Buy the Kool-Aid, it doesn't bother me any, you know that well enough by now 9er.

Now, is that all on him? No, part is quarterback/receiver miscues, part is because he was the receiver in the vicinity and not able to make the catch. However, some were drops, others were because he allowed defensive backs to move him out of position, some are simply broken up passes...but under Manning that number climbed, then climbed again. Why? Some could be injury but as I've already shown that under Manning that statistic has grown each season? What changed? He was targeted more, which means that his missed attempts also did, there is some concern there. Especially when you are going to dish out mega bucks, is his productivity overall worth it? I don't believe so and you do, that is just how it goes.

[Slick]

Not sure, I believe last year he was 5%, you could look at dropped passes per team but that would not give you his percentage. Let me see what I can find.

You probably won't find any. This was the best I could come up with.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr


Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this.

He has a higher catch rate than Calvin Johnson.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think you're just pulling numbers out of your ass.

[Jsteve01]

Actually if you calculate his drop % per game then that is a huge chunk of the 80 missed attempts, part of it could be on the quarterback but why would Thomas and Decker have a lower attempt to miss ratio with less accurate quarterback? The league average is 40 attempts that includes drops, so he had near double? Joel would argue that he was injured or hurt, but last year Decker and Thomas both were 60 plus in that category, 20 above the league average? If you can figure out the variable then you tell me, because in truth it makes little sense, you add 20 for injuries but even healthy he has missed more attempts then the league average.

You're too enamored with your 80 number there. 10 games over 100 yards, played all 16 games, 11 TD's. etc., You would really trade DT for Decker and a NO#2. Maybe I'm in the minority but that's just not very well thought out.

I would love to go back and watch all 80 you're talking about and see what the situation was for each one. It wasn't 80 dropped balls. agree completely with all of this. Drop percentage is the only fair stat to go off off. DT led the league in drops yes but he caught 111 balls placing his drop percentage at 5.4 with the likes of Gronk and Edelman, and Hilton.

[Jsteve01]

Rav why edelman? Not an apples to apples discussion.

[TXBRONC]

Okay Greedy, my name is Reality - while that would be great it just is never going to happen. Every time you pay one player of such and such status you then have another, say Knighton who could be lost due to who you prioritize. Does Denver have great defensive ends for the 3-4? No, they're adequate, maybe solid but not great or elite. Inside linebackers? Safety? Center? Guard? etc., etc.

I think it was Madden who once said that the key is not talent but being united that makes a team. Great talent here and there makes a team shine, but they are also likely to burn out like a falling star sooner rather then later, but solid players throughout the roster who believe in their teammates, they burn brighter and longer.

I'm not oblivious to that reality but I also know it's possible for Denver to keep both Knighton and Demaryius without breaking the bank.

[Lancane]

You probably won't find any. This was the best I could come up with.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

He has a higher catch rate than Calvin Johnson.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think you're just pulling numbers out of your ass.

If I am pulling anything out of my ass it's statistically recorded facts, I think your disregarding any data that leads to 'how dare someone question Demaryius Thomas or the Broncos', similar to the same BS that comes with questioning John Elway as a General Manager, it's completely un-fan like, your a bandwagon fan, blah...blah...blah. And I think your better then two-bit comments like that Slick. It's not like I am arguing from a completely unsupported angle with no factual data supporting what I am saying, it's that you just don't want to buy it, that is fine - but isn't it better to just make your argument and leave it at that?

[Bronco9798]

And your too enamored with padded stat sheets. What I bring up is a viable and concerning facts, do you know that most major news outlets ran stories about Thomas and his dropped passes in 2014? Before he was even injured? I guess they're too enamored as well. Did he have a great season? Statistically he had a great season, but stats do not tell the whole story, hell we saw Brian Griese win the NFL Passing Title, we saw Javon Walker, Ashley Lelie and Brandon Lloyd have career years, but there is always more to the story then what is being shown or said. Buy the Kool-Aid, it doesn't bother me any, you know that well enough by now 9er.

Now, is that all on him? No, part is quarterback/receiver miscues, part is because he was the receiver in the vicinity and not able to make the catch. However, some were drops, others were because he allowed defensive backs to move him out of position, some are simply broken up passes...but under Manning that number climbed, then climbed again. Why? Some could be injury but as I've already shown that under Manning that statistic has grown each season? What changed? He was targeted more, which means that his missed attempts also did, there is some concern there. Especially when you are going to dish out mega bucks, is his productivity overall worth it? I don't believe so and you do, that is just how it goes.

I'm not enamored with stats. You're the guy with all the numbers around here. I just talk about how I feel or what I see. I'm not a stat man, I'm an eye man. I talk about what I see. I debate based on my opinions and my beliefs. Numbers can be true, but are generally misleading. Numbers don't give you a picture, an illustration, or a reason. You will hardly ever see me reference numbers or stats. I don't need them to talk or give an opinion about a subject. I've always been one to talk about what I see. That number 80 is very deceiving in many ways. I don't think DT is as bad as you make him out to be. Again, just my opinion based on what I see every week of the season, not highlights.

[Slick]

If I am pulling anything out of my ass it's statistically recorded facts, I think your disregarding any data that leads to 'how dare someone question Demaryius Thomas or the Broncos', similar to the same BS that comes with questioning John Elway as a General Manager, it's completely un-fan like, your a bandwagon fan, blah...blah...blah. And I think your better then two-bit comments like that Slick. It's not like I am arguing from a completely unsupported angle with no factual data supporting what I am saying, it's that you just don't want to buy it, that is fine - but isn't it better to just make your argument and leave it at that?

What factual data? How many of the missed targets were drops?

[Lancane]

I'm not oblivious to that reality but I also know it's possible for Denver to keep both Knighton and Demaryius without breaking the bank.

Really? And how much do you think the Broncos have? Even with the suspected jump of the Cap to 142 million, Manning if he returns - his base salary is 19 million, his prorated bonus is an additional 2.5 million which places 21.5 against the cap. According to overthecap.com Denver right now is at $119,825,082, if the Cap rises as expected then that leaves Denver at $22,174,918 before resigning a single player (that includes Manning and Harris' new contract) that is what they have to spend on free agents an draftees. Let's say Demaryius Thomas get's tagged and not a long term deal that leaves $9,674,918. How far do you think that 10 million goes in this league? Denver can trim some fat, cutting Ramirez would save 2.5 million, Clark another 1.5 million. Trust me, it all sounds good but is not as easy as it looks.

[Bronco9798]

Really? And how much do you think the Broncos have? Even with the suspected jump of the Cap to 142 million, Manning if he returns - his base salary is 19 million, his prorated bonus is an additional 2.5 million which places 21.5 against the cap. According to overthecap.com Denver right now is at $119,825,082, if the Cap rises as expected then that leaves Denver at $22,174,918 before resigning a single player (that includes Manning and Harris' new contract) that is what they have to spend on free agents an draftees. Let's say Demaryius Thomas get's tagged and not a long term deal that leaves $9,674,918. How far do you think that 10 million goes in this league? Denver can trim some fat, cutting Ramirez would save 2.5 million, Clark another 1.5 million. Trust me, it all sounds good but is not as easy as it looks.

I'm not a Capologist ok. Can you give a decent signing bonus and backload the contract with a small yearly salary upfront and backload the big money toward the end? I'm just curious. The signing bonus would make up for the smaller salary upfront and is guaranteed money. Can you do that? Is the signing bonus prorated or does it not count?

[TXBRONC]

I'm not a Capologist ok. Can you give a decent signing bonus and backload the contract with a small yearly salary upfront and backload the big money toward the end? I'm just curious. The signing bonus would make up for the smaller salary upfront and is guaranteed money. Can you do that? Is the signing bonus prorated or does it not count?

Elway hasn't been back loading contract in fact, he seems to avoid it like the plaque.

[Lancane]

What factual data? How many of the missed targets were drops?

What factual data? What do you think I am using, a ****ing ruler? LOL. I am going off recorded statistics, I believe that his drop rate was 5% for the season, 9.8 drops - if my calculations are correct, that would be near double his drops the previous season. So take about 10 off the 80, 70 is still high. So then you calculate how many times a defensive back led him or forced him to move out of place or batted a ball away, which I can not find - but is still included in that remaining tally. So let's say an additional 10, that would mean that Manning has then thrown in the vicinity of D. Thomas 20 times more then the league average and throw was incomplete, it would explain how both Decker and Thomas had 60 missed attempts the year before, so then we have a bigger quarterback issue, the league average in missed attempts is 40, so even 60 is rather high. Brandon Marshall had 44 missed attempts in 2014, Calvin Johnson had 60 in 2014, A.J. Green had 47 in 2014 and I could go on. So who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops?

[Lancane]

I'm not a Capologist ok. Can you give a decent signing bonus and backload the contract with a small yearly salary upfront and backload the big money toward the end? I'm just curious. The signing bonus would make up for the smaller salary upfront and is guaranteed money. Can you do that? Is the signing bonus prorated or does it not count?

Beyond base salary you have to include bonuses under certain criteria (Roster, Workout, Prorated) now Manning received no contract based bonus in 2012 only his salary of 18 million, in 2013 his salary dropped but included a prorated part of the bonus which came to 17.5 same with last year, but now we jump up to a larger base salary plus the prorated bonus (does not include post season bonuses). Despite what TX said, which his correct to some extent, Manning's contract is easier to walk from but is back loaded he would make 21.5 this year and next year. Now if Denver parts from Manning before the agreed deadline they'll have 5 million in dead money, after the start of the official season it's 16.5 which is kind of scary when you think about it. After Manning passed his first physical following the 2012 season his guaranteed money jumped from 18 mil to 58 million. He still has another 8 guaranteed which he'll get split over two years.

[Jsteve01]

If I am pulling anything out of my ass it's statistically recorded facts, I think your disregarding any data that leads to 'how dare someone question Demaryius Thomas or the Broncos', similar to the same BS that comes with questioning John Elway as a General Manager, it's completely un-fan like, your a bandwagon fan, blah...blah...blah. And I think your better then two-bit comments like that Slick. It's not like I am arguing from a completely unsupported angle with no factual data supporting what I am saying, it's that you just don't want to buy it, that is fine - but isn't it better to just make your argument and leave it at that?

What factual data? How many of the missed targets were drops?. Ten. He was tied for the league lead in drops but had a drop percentage of 5.4

[Lancane]

. Ten. He was tied for the league lead in drops but had a drop percentage of 5.4

Thanks, I had it at 9.8 so basically ten but at 5%.

[Jsteve01]

I'm not a Capologist ok. Can you give a decent signing bonus and backload the contract with a small yearly salary upfront and backload the big money toward the end? I'm just curious. The signing bonus would make up for the smaller salary upfront and is guaranteed money. Can you do that? Is the signing bonus prorated or does it not count?

Beyond base salary you have to include bonuses under certain criteria (Roster, Workout, Prorated) now Manning received no contract based bonus in 2012 only his salary of 18 million, in 2013 his salary dropped but included a prorated part of the bonus which came to 17.5 same with last year, but now we jump up to a larger base salary plus the prorated bonus (does not include post season bonuses). Despite what TX said, which his correct to some extent, Manning's contract is easier to walk from but is back loaded he would make 21.5 this year and next year. Now if Denver parts from Manning before the agreed deadline they'll have 5 million in dead money, after the start of the official season it's 16.5 which is kind of scary when you think about it. After Manning passed his first physical following the 2012 season his guaranteed money jumped from 18 mil to 58 million. He still has another 8 guaranteed which he'll get split over two years (dead money).. He was thrown at with a 20% higher rate but how much higher is his catch total. The drops don't bother me as much as the lack of effort in the Indy game bit that's not typical

[Lancane]

. He was thrown at with a 20% higher rate but how much higher is his catch total. The drops don't bother me as much as the lack of effort in the Indy game bit that's not typical

Let's see for the season he was targeted 184 times, but caught the ball 111 times, Antonio Brown is the closest stat wise, he had 182 times and had 129 catches (attempt to miss ratio of 53)...so 62% give or take.

[TXBRONC]

Beyond base salary you have to include bonuses under certain criteria (Roster, Workout, Prorated) now Manning received no contract based bonus in 2012 only his salary of 18 million, in 2013 his salary dropped but included a prorated part of the bonus which came to 17.5 same with last year, but now we jump up to a larger base salary plus the prorated bonus (does not include post season bonuses). Despite what TX said, which his correct to some extent, Manning's contract is easier to walk from but is back loaded he would make 21.5 this year and next year. Now if Denver parts from Manning before the agreed deadline they'll have 5 million in dead money, after the start of the official season it's 16.5 which is kind of scary when you think about it. After Manning passed his first physical following the 2012 season his guaranteed money jumped from 18 mil to 58 million. He still has another 8 guaranteed which he'll get split over two years.

I remember reading in the D.P. (I think) that Elway has made it standard operating procedure not to backload contract. I'm not saying that happens in every case but from I remember of the article it is what he prefers to do.

[Lancane]

I remember reading in the D.P. (I think) that Elway has made it standard operating procedure not to backload contract. I'm not saying that happens in every case but from I remember of the article it is what he prefers to do.

Manning's early contract was not back loaded, and in most cases Elway does not like such contracts. But Manning's which basically breaks down into a year to year originally only had the guarantee of his first season's salary, after they agreed to stick with him and he passed his physical the guaranteed jumped up and additional 40 mil. Even if Denver would have parted last off-season, they'd have still owed him 25 mil. now he's guaranteed less then 10 after what he received last year. So yeah, when you look at it, it is a back loaded deal...but it's one of the few I have seen under Elway.

[bcbronc]

What factual data? What do you think I am using, a ****ing ruler? LOL. I am going off recorded statistics, I believe that his drop rate was 5% for the season, 9.8 drops - if my calculations are correct, that would be near double his drops the previous season. So take about 10 off the 80, 70 is still high. So then you calculate how many times a defensive back led him or forced him to move out of place or batted a ball away, which I can not find - but is still included in that remaining tally. So let's say an additional 10, that would mean that Manning has then thrown in the vicinity of D. Thomas 20 times more then the league average and throw was incomplete, it would explain how both Decker and Thomas had 60 missed attempts the year before, so then we have a bigger quarterback issue, the league average in missed attempts is 40, so even 60 is rather high. Brandon Marshall had 44 missed attempts in 2014, Calvin Johnson had 60 in 2014, A.J. Green had 47 in 2014 and I could go on. So who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops?

Why look at total number of incompletions instead of % of targets not completed? DT had the most targets in the league last season..so he should also have the most incompletions. Doesn't seem overly useful to look at gross numbers and not factor in total targets.

Looking at comp% for some of the top target guys from 2014:
DT: 60.3
A Brown: 70.9
J Jones: 63.4
J Nelson: 64.9
A Johnson: 57.8
K Benjamin: 50
A Jeffrey: 58.6
V Jackson: 48.9
J Macklin: 59.4
G Tate: 69.4

Those are the top 10 most targeted WRs last year. Brown and Tate stick out, but DT's comp% compares favourably to other top target players.

Megatron and Green both missed a bunch of time, so comparing their total drops to a player that played all 16 games seems a bit sneaky. For comparison's sake:

C Johnson ranked 21 for total targets, with a 55.5 comp%
AJ Green tied for 32 for total targets, with a 59.5 comp%
Both lower than DT's, despite him having more actual incompletions.

Sorry Lan, the metric you're using just isn't useful.

[silkamilkamonico]

I would be curious the ratio of double teaming players like CJ and AJ vs DT. CJ has times in games where he has 3 players on him and AJ constantly sees double teams every time I watch a Bengals game. I am sure DT sees them too but with guys like Sanders/JThomas(more specifically) and Welker how often is DT seeing double teams?

[Lancane]

Why look at total number of incompletions instead of % of targets not completed? DT had the most targets in the league last season..so he should also have the most incompletions. Doesn't seem overly useful to look at gross numbers and not factor in total targets.

Looking at comp% for some of the top target guys from 2014:
DT: 60.3
A Brown: 70.9
J Jones: 63.4
J Nelson: 64.9
A Johnson: 57.8
K Benjamin: 50
A Jeffrey: 58.6
V Jackson: 48.9
J Macklin: 59.4
G Tate: 69.4

Those are the top 10 most targeted WRs last year. Brown and Tate stick out, but DT's comp% compares favourably to other top target players.

Megatron and Green both missed a bunch of time, so comparing their total drops to a player that played all 16 games seems a bit sneaky. For comparison's sake:

C Johnson ranked 21 for total targets, with a 55.5 comp%
AJ Green tied for 32 for total targets, with a 59.5 comp%
Both lower than DT's, despite him having more actual incompletions.

Sorry Lan, the metric you're using just isn't useful.

Actually BC, there is one part of your calculations that doesn't compute whatsoever the Quarterback for those same said teams (Attempts to Reception Ratio) also has to account for the quarterback or as Joel has mentioned, injury, etc. McCown had a completion percentage of 56.3, then calculate Vincent Jackson's numbers. Andre Johnson had Ryan Fitzpatrick while his completion percentage was better then McCown's we also have come to learn the A. Johnson was at odds with the coaches in Houston (he had only A single 100 plus yard game this season). There is a lot more to it all then just the percentages. E. Sanders was also above 60%, but he had around 40 missed attempts and same with J. Thomas? Manning had a completion percentage of 66.2 and while some might go 'not that big a difference between that and Fitzpatrick's 63.1' trust me it's more then people think. T.Y. Hilton was targeted 158 times and caught 93 passes, Hilton only missed 65 attempts but what is impressive is that Andrew Luck had a completion percentage of 61.7 for the season.

[Slick]

What factual data? What do you think I am using, a ****ing ruler? LOL. I am going off recorded statistics, I believe that his drop rate was 5% for the season, 9.8 drops - if my calculations are correct, that would be near double his drops the previous season. So take about 10 off the 80, 70 is still high. So then you calculate how many times a defensive back led him or forced him to move out of place or batted a ball away, which I can not find - but is still included in that remaining tally. So let's say an additional 10, that would mean that Manning has then thrown in the vicinity of D. Thomas 20 times more then the league average and throw was incomplete, it would explain how both Decker and Thomas had 60 missed attempts the year before, so then we have a bigger quarterback issue, the league average in missed attempts is 40, so even 60 is rather high. Brandon Marshall had 44 missed attempts in 2014, Calvin Johnson had 60 in 2014, A.J. Green had 47 in 2014 and I could go on. So who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops?

I lost track of this thread for a minute.

Who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops? Well, it is probably a combination of things. Like a poorly thrown ball, a bad play call against a particular defense, he's covered.

I just felt like you were accusing/blaming DT for not giving enough effort for ALL of the other missed attempts, when those misses may not necessarily be on him.

[Ravage!!!]

I lost track of this thread for a minute.

Who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops? Well, it is probably a combination of things. Like a poorly thrown ball, a bad play call against a particular defense, he's covered.

I just felt like you were accusing/blaming DT for not giving enough effort for ALL of the other missed attempts, when those misses may not necessarily be on him.

But that can be said for all teams, all QBs, and all pass patterns/reasons. It's why a % comparison to the rest of the NFL gives SOME kind of indication. If I were going to give the advantage to any WR over another, it would be one that had Manning throwing the ball over one that had McCown throwing the ball.

I think the main point is, that as good as DT is, he's not an indispensable 'type' of WR. Also could be making the point that if he has a higher % of misses with a Manning throwing the ball, what kind of % would he have with a Oz throwing the ball?

He's a very good player, but can this team afford to put that much into him? No matter what the outcome on that, I think it's debatable.

[Jsteve01]

I lost track of this thread for a minute.

Who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops? Well, it is probably a combination of things. Like a poorly thrown ball, a bad play call against a particular defense, he's covered.

I just felt like you were accusing/blaming DT for not giving enough effort for ALL of the other missed attempts, when those misses may not necessarily be on him.

But that can be said for all teams, all QBs, and all pass patterns/reasons. It's why a % comparison to the rest of the NFL gives SOME kind of indication. If I were going to give the advantage to any WR over another, it would be one that had Manning throwing the ball over one that had McCown throwing the ball.

I think the main point is, that as good as DT is, he's not an indispensable 'type' of WR. Also could be making the point that if he has a higher % of misses with a Manning throwing the ball, what kind of % would he have with a Oz throwing the ball?

He's a very good player, but can this team afford to put that much into him? No matter what the outcome on that, I think it's debatable. what manning brings in accuracy seemed to have been offset by a loss of velocity during the second half of the season. I just keep coming back to the fact that even if we can't concede that DT is elite (something which I believe he is) he's still a home grown top talent who has great character. You don't let that type of player walk when they're just entering their prime

[TXBRONC]

what manning brings in accuracy seemed to have been offset by a loss of velocity during the second half of the season. I just keep coming back to the fact that even if we can't concede that DT is elite (something which I believe he is) he's still a home grown top talent who has great character. You don't let that type of player walk when they're just entering their prime

His injured quads probably has something to do with loss of velocity.

[Ravage!!!]

what manning brings in accuracy seemed to have been offset by a loss of velocity during the second half of the season. I just keep coming back to the fact that even if we can't concede that DT is elite (something which I believe he is) he's still a home grown top talent who has great character. You don't let that type of player walk when they're just entering their prime

Although I don't agree that he is "elite"... I can absolutely see what you are saying. I've always said, and firmly believe, that letting top talent go hurts a team more than helps. But I wouldn't be saying the same thing about a RB, either. RBs are quick/easy to replace in the NFL. WRs, believe it or not, are getting easier and easier to replace because of the rules.

Used to be a trend where the NFL was looking for bigger, taller, WRs so that they could be more physical with the DBs. Now, because of the rules, smaller faster guys are getting to be just as valuable and just as deadly. WRs don't have to be "experts" at getting off the bump as much any more, and the rules allow the small guy to cross the middle without getting crushed. Results? WRs are getting easier to come by. Hard to justify that money on one when it can be spread out over many.

[Lancane]

Who holds the responsibility for the higher rate of missed attempts, beyond just drops? Well, it is probably a combination of things. Like a poorly thrown ball, a bad play call against a particular defense, he's covered.

There are measurable variables, the league average is 40 missed attempts, now we can look at the times he was targeted plus his number of drops and calculate 5.4% off that or 10 dropped passes (70). Now despite Manning’s drop in production he remained one of the more accurate passers with a completion percentage of 66.3 I believe, and Sanders along with J. Thomas were closer to the league average, so how many poorly made passes, bad play calls or coverage do you account for? There is no exact science, just can not fathom 80 missed attempts with an elite receiver.


I just felt like you were accusing/blaming DT for not giving enough effort for ALL of the other missed attempts, when those misses may not necessarily be on him.

I don’t think anyone can ask for more of Demaryius other then he can of himself. He’s given his best to this team, whether or not he is elite or great is fully debatable, but I don’t think anyone can deny that he is a football player who makes a difference. I just don’t believe that he is worth overpaying in this day and age and at this point with what the Broncos face.

[Simple Jaded]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/

Here is a pretty thorough breakdown of the Broncos cap, they're assuming the cap is $142 MM. I see another $8-$9 MM in dead weight too. So what's that leave, over $30 MM in cap space?

Btw, don't forget about the 2014 cap rollover, $5.9 MM, that's included here.

[Lancane]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/

Here is a pretty thorough breakdown of the Broncos cap, they're assuming the cap is $142 MM. I see another $8-$9 MM in dead weight too. So what's that leave, over $30 MM in cap space?

Btw, don't forget about the 2014 cap rollover, $5.9 MM, that's included here.

The new cap figures are not in, but you are correct - most are assuming that the cap will be somewhere in the 142 million range, owners wanted to set it 139 mil but the NFLPA is arguing for the 142 million given the new earnings from television contracts.

Denver at this moment will has according to Spotrac 26,673,438 mil (which includes the rollover according to overthecap.com who has Denver's cap at 122,870,082 mil. Now the Broncos have to tag Demaryius Thomas by Tuesday, that immediately washes 12.71 million which would leave Denver at 13,973,438 million. I don't see Denver cutting Colquitt which would only save 2 million, so when I look at the likely candidates I come up with Manny Ramirez at 3 mil., Andre Caldwell at 1.35 mil., and will likely ask Ryan Clady to restructure his current contract, but I don't believe he will. So that would leave the Broncos with a cap of around 18,323,438 unless Peyton Manning decides not to return, then Denver would have 34,823,438 million. The Broncos will only have 30 million plus in cap space if Manning doesn't come back for 2015 or they do not keep Demaryius Thomas.

[Simple Jaded]

**** Colquitt.

The way I look at it, Manning's current cap hit is a bookmark for Miller's next contract. You can argue whether or not Denver should resign Miller with someone else, to me that's a no brainer.

[Jsteve01]

**** Colquitt.

The way I look at it, Manning's current cap hit is a bookmark for Miller's next contract. You can argue whether or not Denver should resign Miller with someone else, to me that's a no brainer. he's rated as easily the best 4-3 olb in the game the past three years, and by a huge margin. Scary thing is the 3-4 under Wade should do a much better jib of utilizing his skills. Yeah no brainer

[Lancane]

**** Colquitt.

The way I look at it, Manning's current cap hit is a bookmark for Miller's next contract. You can argue whether or not Denver should resign Miller with someone else, to me that's a no brainer.

Special Teams are just as important, I know some tend to forget that. But looking at Colquitt's numbers the Broncos really cannot justify cutting him to save a mere 2 million when Colquitt grades out so high.

Did I argue about Von Miller, IMHO he's the only elite player on this team. So I don't know why your getting belligerent?

[TXBRONC]

**** Colquitt.

The way I look at it, Manning's current cap hit is a bookmark for Miller's next contract. You can argue whether or not Denver should resign Miller with someone else, to me that's a no brainer.


he's rated as easily the best 4-3 olb in the game the past three years, and by a huge margin. Scary thing is the 3-4 under Wade should do a much better jib of utilizing his skills. Yeah no brainer

Miller is a franchise player it seems highly likely that Denver lets him walk away.

Colquitt is a lot easier to replace than Miller but he still a very good punter. As much as people have complained about special teams Colquitt hasn't been the problem. The coverage units have been the problem.

[Jsteve01]

people keep talking net punting avg with Britton. The problem is that net number is all on the coverage teams. His kicks are always high and directional. Last seasons special teams woes were squarely on the coverage units. It didn't help that we kept losing linebackers who make up the core of your coverage teams. It reminded me a little of the mid 2000s when the offense and defense were solid but our kickig teams were in the bottom third of the league. Really puts your offense and defense at a disadvantage when you're always giving the opponent short field and you have to consistently sustain long drives.

[Simple Jaded]

Special Teams are just as important, I know some tend to forget that. But looking at Colquitt's numbers the Broncos really cannot justify cutting him to save a mere 2 million when Colquitt grades out so high.

Did I argue about Von Miller, IMHO he's the only elite player on this team. So I don't know why your getting belligerent?


Colquitt is easily one of the most replacable players on the team, if they can live without two of their best players they can live without a Punter. And every little bit of cap space counts when you consider that the Broncos apparently have no interest in life without DT and Manning at this point.

As for Miller, it was a joke, the part about resigning him, considering he is one of Denver's best players it kinda follows your pattern to get rid of him. The part about Manning saving a salary slot for Miller's extension is sound logic, I would think the Broncos already have that money earmarked for Miller, considering we don't know whether the cap will go up again next season we don't know if the Broncos would do much with the cap saving they'd get if Manning retired this year.

They might just try to roll as much over as possible, although, according to Spotrac the Broncos currently have less than $100 MM under contract in 2016 salary cap, maybe they restructure some guys.

[Lancane]

Colquitt is easily one of the most replacable players on the team, if they can live without two of their best players they can live without a Punter. And every little bit of cap space counts when you consider that the Broncos apparently have no interest in life without DT and Manning at this point.

Easily? So then you think Denver can simply insert anyone and they’ll have the same production? Yes, they save 2 million but they’ll also have 1.5 million in dead money from cutting him. Eight punters are set to make 3 million plus this season, three more then Britton Colquitt. The top 15 punters will all make 2 million plus. Denver apparently have no interest in life without? Well good for them, but 2 million does not make or break their return but the return of maybe two depth players. Big difference between 3.5 million, 12.7 million and 21.5 million.


As for Miller, it was a joke, the part about resigning him, considering he is one of Denver's best players it kinda follows your pattern to get rid of him. The part about Manning saving a salary slot for Miller's extension is sound logic, I would think the Broncos already have that money earmarked for Miller, considering we don't know whether the cap will go up again next season we don't know if the Broncos would do much with the cap saving they'd get if Manning retired this year.

Follows my pattern, okay there Mr. I hate Julius Thomas with a passion and can not wait to move on without him. And again I reiterate my stance, I would like Demaryius Thomas to return, even if I do not believe he is elite I still consider him a true number one receiver and a great one, but I do not believe he is worth Calvin Johnson money. As for Manning, we all knew that he came with a short window hoping for a Championship, and I am far from the only one ready to move on, especially at with his current salary numbers and overall odds of getting there. We’d much rather keep more talent across the board then one nearly dead horse that disappears in the final and most important races. I understand the fiscal aspects regarding Miller, and you are correct to a certain degree, but I wholly disagree about what they could do with the savings from moving on from Manning; they could sign Demaryius Thomas to a contract that is uploaded up front and saves tons in the coming years, they could keep Julius Thomas, Terrance Knighton, Brandon Marshall, Orlando Franklin, Virgil Green and so on without having to worry about much in the way of holes or could upgrade some positions and become a stronger roster then they already are.


They might just try to roll as much over as possible, although, according to Spotrac the Broncos currently have less than $100 MM under contract in 2016 salary cap, maybe they restructure some guys.

You do know that under the current Collective Bargaining Agreement that teams are required to spend 95% of their cap per season? That is in effect for this season and next, in 2017 it jumps back to 99% as it was 2011 and 2012. And it only allows them to rollover so much of the cap. As for the 2016 Salary Cap, those numbers will not be calculated until next off-season and they are currently projecting that it could well jump to 150 million for 2016. As for restructuring contracts, I think that will depend.

[Simple Jaded]

I do hate JT, he's a ******* *****, makes zero sense to reward this guy with a top TE contract. If he wants to get paid like a WR pay him like the 60 catch/500 yard WR's in the league. Fauria catches a lot of TDs, it doesn't make him a top TE.

My point about the '16 cap number is that they currently have a very healthy '16 cap situation so perhaps the Broncos don't need to earmark Manning's slot for Miller, and that maybe they could restructure current guys, like Clady, into roster bonuses later. That's not Denver's style tho.

As for Colquitt, cut him and give McManus a shot at punting, I am dead serious, that's how little impact Colquitt has on a game.

[Lancane]

I do hate JT, he's a ******* *****, makes zero sense to reward this guy with a top TE contract. If he wants to get paid like a WR pay him like the 60 catch/500 yard WR's in the league. Fauria catches a lot of TDs, it doesn't make him a top TE.

That is absolutely irrational on your part and hypocritical. Julius Thomas is considered one of the top tight ends in the league by those within the league and by John Elway himself, remember he said Thomas and Thomas are priorities, unless you’ve lost faith in Elway? Thomas is considered one of the hottest free agents, trust me that he’ll get paid as a Top TE because that is what he is, not all Tight Ends are good at blocking, in this day and age receiving Tight Ends are highly coveted.


My point about the '16 cap number is that they currently have a very healthy '16 cap situation so perhaps the Broncos don't need to earmark Manning's slot for Miller, and that maybe they could restructure current guys, like Clady, into roster bonuses later. That's not Denver's style tho.

Problem is that I see this as Clady’s make or break season, he could force Denver to release him if he is unwilling to restructure now in light of the cap situation. We also have to remember that while Miller is the prevalent free agent next off-season, we’ll also be looking at Wolfe, Jackson, Osweiler, Anderson, Trevathan, McManus, McCray and others who are going to effect that as well, depending on the team’s outlook.


As for Colquitt, cut him and give McManus a shot at punting, I am dead serious, that's how little impact Colquitt has on a game.

This isn’t Necessary Roughness part two, most teams don’t allow Place Kickers to have dual duties as Punters for a reason. So, if Denver does part with Colquitt then expect a free agent to be brought in or for them to draft someone for the position.

[Simple Jaded]

I said JT is a *****, I realize he's a Top TE talent but I think it's borderline criminal to reward this bed wetter with a Top TE contract. No one said all TE's have to be great, or even good, at blocking, but JT has no interest in even putting some effort into it, he's an absolute liability when he's not running routes. And letting Reggie Nelson take that football right out of his hands? Like he's waiting for the refs to call a jump ball? Soft, dude is baby shit soft.

I used to think exactly like you do, I used to defend him against Joel, but I lost a lot of respect for the dude. Ya have any idea what it's like when Joel is right and you're wrong about something?

John Elway can run this as he sees fit, if he brings JT back under huge TE money I'll have someone to take a dump on next season. That is, unless, JT finds a set of balls and actually learns what it is to be a football player.

As for McManus, with Barth here he's nothing more than a KO specialist, he wouldn't be handling two jobs and he was supposedly a better punter than kicker in college. If Denver insists on keeping him around they can give him a shot at a real job.

Btw, I'm a huge hypocrite, always have been. Ya got me there.

[ShaneFalco]

TAndre Caldwell at 1.35 mil

why in the world is he worth that much? he had 4 catches all season?

i just hope the Broncos are not stupid enough to waste two roster spots on kickers again this year.

[Pudge]

why in the world is he worth that much? he had 4 catches all season?

i just hope the Broncos are not stupid enough to waste two roster spots on kickers again this year.

I wish we wouldn't have signed Barth to the deal we did

[ShaneFalco]

what is barths deal? i never really looked into it. I thought it was a 1 year deal?

[Pudge]

He's not making a whole lot but he's signed through 2016

[TXBRONC]

He's not making a whole lot but he's signed through 2016

I have doubts that Denver will keep him that long. I expect there will be competition in camp this year.

[WARHORSE]

JT wants a top contract. The man isnt worth it, as Schlereth said, hes one of those 100% guys. If he doesnt feel 100% hes not playing. He showed the heart of a turnip this past season imo.

Im good signing Owen Daniels, or perhaps Cameron Jordan from Cleveland. Definitely want Green back.

Im thinking Peyton restructures too.

[TXBRONC]

JT wants a top contract. The man isnt worth it, as Schlereth said, hes one of those 100% guys. If he doesnt feel 100% hes not playing. He showed the heart of a turnip this past season imo.

Im good signing Owen Daniels, or perhaps Cameron Jordan from Cleveland. Definitely want Green back.

Im thinking Peyton restructures too.

Peyton restructures based on what?

[Simple Jaded]

what is barths deal? i never really looked into it. I thought it was a 1 year deal?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/connor-barth/

Pretty solid deal for Denver, I think, they have him for 2 more seasons at less than a Mil/per.

[Pudge]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/connor-barth/

Pretty solid deal for Denver, I think, they have him for 2 more seasons at less than a Mil/per.

He's defiantly a bargain, nothings guaranteed. I just don't want to see him here next year. He's accurate but a weak kicker. There's got to be a happy medium between him and McManus. Hopefully McManus can show he's greatly improved and we don't need two kickers.

[ShaneFalco]

ughh mcanus. I dont know what they see in him.

[ShaneFalco]

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[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

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