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VonDoom
01-26-2015, 04:10 PM
I know PFF isn't the end all, be all around here, but a lot of teams are relying on their stats. This is an interesting article on each team and how "close" they are to being Super Bowl contenders. The actual reasoning isn't that thrilling to me, but there is some good in depth stuff in the body of the article, so I thought it was worth a read:


DE Malik Jackson: As was the case in 2013, Jackson proved to be one of the Broncos' most efficient players. He played just 53 percent of the team's defensive snaps during the regular season yet was third in tackles for loss (eight), second in QB hits (20) and ninth in tackles (42) -- which led all of the team's defensive linemen. The Broncos kept him a rotational player because that was defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio's way -- none of the defensive linemen played more than 69 percent of snaps in 2014. We'll see if that changes with a new coaching staff in town.


G Orlando Franklin: The Broncos moved Franklin from right tackle to left guard this season in hopes he would improve Peyton Manning's protection up the middle. Even though he committed a team-high 10 penalties, Franklin allowed just one sack, per PFF, and helped propel the Broncos run game. Denver averaged 5.4 yards per carry on run plays over his left guard spot in the final six games of 2014. Several personnel executives said in recent weeks that Franklin was playing near an All-Pro level over the season's final month. He'll draw plenty of interest as a guard in free agency.


Good News: Denver had the best cornerback in football this season. Coming off an ACL injury, Harris allowed just 0.57 yards per coverage snap. That was a full 0.2 better than Richard Sherman, the next closest qualified CB. And when quarterbacks dared to target Harris, they had a passer rating of just 47.8. That was second in the league among starters.

Bad News: Of the six Broncos offensive linemen to play more than 450 snaps this season, just two (Franklin and Montgomery) had positive PFF grades. This comes a year after four of the five regulars up front had plus-ratings. Left tackle Ryan Clady, coming off a major foot injury, fell from the fifth-ranked tackle in 2012 to 41st overall this season.



The Best, Worst Values

by Kevin Seifert, ESPN.com

Best -- WR Emmanuel Sanders: His $6 million salary did fall within the top 20 for wide receivers, but Sanders ranked fifth in the NFL in both catches (101) and yards (1,404) while starting all 16 games. That production -- by far a career high -- came after signing a three-year, $15 million deal in 2014. In fact, the total value of Sanders' deal is equivalent to the guaranteed money former Broncos receiver Eric Decker got from the Jets this past offseason.

Worst -- RT Ryan Clady: Generally speaking, the Broncos' talent, production and pay scale match up as well as any team's in the league. But Clady did not play to his history in 2014, based on PFF's reckoning, while earning $8 million and consuming $8.6 million of the salary cap. PFF graded him as average for this project and ranked him 41st overall among NFL tackles. To put that in perspective, fellow Bronco Orlando Franklin earned just $969,000 in 2014 but ranked as PFF's 13th-best guard.

The rest (just click on each team): http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12179331/how-many-players-away-super-bowl-team

H/T to the Orange Mane for posting the article - I don't know if I would have seen it otherwise

Northman
01-26-2015, 04:24 PM
I dont even know if its just about 2 players away honestly. I think its more a mentality thing for us, we have trouble dealing with adversity as a team right now. The talent is there but when push comes to shove we fold pretty quickly.

VonDoom
01-26-2015, 04:30 PM
I dont even know if its just about 2 players away honestly. I think its more a mentality thing for us, we have trouble dealing with adversity as a team right now. The talent is there but when push comes to shove we fold pretty quickly.

Right, I mean, take that part with a grain of salt. I thought it was a pretty good summary of where we are overall at this point

GEM
01-26-2015, 04:47 PM
You mean to say Franklin played at a WHAT level??? I thought he sucked...:rolleyes:

That's my boy! :D

Joel
01-26-2015, 04:52 PM
Two players, right: A guard and offensive tackle. Or center and tackle, or guard and center/guard; however it's spun, even Franklin fans must admit he can't play three spots at once. So we're two linemen away; pretty sure I've been saying that since this time last year. Only difference is now EVERYONE'S saying it—and Manning's a year older....

I mean, OK, even the improved Moore doesn't thrill me—but ALL other starting DBs are Pro Bowlers; if Moore's not good enough to cover the rest, cut him. Likewise, even the improved Irving doesn't thrill me, but we spend so much time in nickel (and justifiably as the NFL passes more and more) it'll be Marshall out there with Trevathan half the time, and that DOES thrill me.

Beyond that... well, no, we can't have All Pros EVERYWHERE—but we come pretty close: NINE Broncos were picked to start the Pro Bowl, and that's not counting Sanders and Anderson starting as alternates. Vasquez was an All Pro last year; put him back at guard and he will be again. Assuming Cladys lis-franc surgery slowed him this year (much as when he was coming off a season-ending injury a few years ago) he'll be back in All Pro shape next year. Plus "great" Malik Jackson and "good" Terrance Knighton, Brandon Marshall and Virgil Green. What are we up to now, 16? How many starting spots are LEFT...?

WJK
01-26-2015, 05:01 PM
In no way was last season's failure an issue of talent. On talent alone, we'd be representing the AFC in the Super Bowl as we speak. We were really banking on Chris Clark to transition to right tackle and play as well as he did at LT, but that wasn't the case. Outside of that, John Fox couldn't get the players up for the Colts game, and Peyton Manning soldiering through his quad strain hurt us more than it helped us.

GEM
01-26-2015, 05:05 PM
Two players, right: A guard and offensive tackle. Or center and tackle, or guard and center/guard; however it's spun, even Franklin fans must admit he can't play three spots at once. So we're two linemen away; pretty sure I've been saying that since this time last year. Only difference is now EVERYONE'S saying it—and Manning's a year older....

I mean, OK, even the improved Moore doesn't thrill me—but ALL other starting DBs are Pro Bowlers; if Moore's not good enough to cover the rest, cut him. Likewise, even the improved Irving doesn't thrill me, but we spend so much time in nickel (and justifiably as the NFL passes more and more) it'll be Marshall out there with Trevathan half the time, and that DOES thrill me.

Beyond that... well, no, we can't have All Pros EVERYWHERE—but we come pretty close: NINE Broncos were picked to start the Pro Bowl, and that's not counting Sanders and Anderson starting as alternates. Vasquez was an All Pro last year; put him back at guard and he will be again. Assuming Cladys lis-franc surgery slowed him this year (much as when he was coming off a season-ending injury a few years ago) he'll be back in All Pro shape next year. Plus "great" Malik Jackson and "good" Terrance Knighton, Brandon Marshall and Virgil Green. What are we up to now, 16? How many starting spots are LEFT...?

Do you ever just admit you were wrong. There are multiple articles out there from people who know a whole lot more than you that say Franklin is damn good. You've done nothing but berate him this entire season. You were wrong!

weazel
01-26-2015, 05:28 PM
3 linemen, TE, MLB, QB... yep, two away

Lancane
01-26-2015, 05:28 PM
Do you ever just admit you were wrong. There are multiple articles out there from people who know a whole lot more than you that say Franklin is damn good. You've done nothing but berate him this entire season. You were wrong!

He is but at the same time is not Gem, it's really one of those hindsight things. Sadly Franklin played better then ever whilst Vasquez and Ramirez played out of place and Clady had probably his worst year as a pro. It's easy to focus the blame on someone when the whole is screwed up. Like how the quarterback is at fault when the entire offense plays horridly or it's the running backs fault when the run game stalls and not the line. You get the idea I am sure.

GEM
01-26-2015, 05:45 PM
He is but at the same time is not Gem, it's really one of those hindsight things. Sadly Franklin played better then ever whilst Vasquez and Ramirez played out of place and Clady had probably his worst year as a pro. It's easy to focus the blame on someone when the whole is screwed up. Like how the quarterback is at fault when the entire offense plays horridly or it's the running backs fault when the run game stalls and not the line. You get the idea I am sure.

Nope. If he stuck to the line sucks, maybe. On many different occasions he stated that Franklin was pretty freakin bad.

Franklin is my boy, I absolutely love him and what he brings to the team. I love his enthusiasm and I love how he plays through plays well past when other players have stopped. I love the man. And damn it...he deserves some shine after all the crap that was talked about him through the season.

CoachChaz
01-26-2015, 05:48 PM
Two players, right: A guard and offensive tackle. Or center and tackle, or guard and center/guard; however it's spun, even Franklin fans must admit he can't play three spots at once. So we're two linemen away; pretty sure I've been saying that since this time last year. Only difference is now EVERYONE'S saying it—and Manning's a year older....

I mean, OK, even the improved Moore doesn't thrill me—but ALL other starting DBs are Pro Bowlers; if Moore's not good enough to cover the rest, cut him. Likewise, even the improved Irving doesn't thrill me, but we spend so much time in nickel (and justifiably as the NFL passes more and more) it'll be Marshall out there with Trevathan half the time, and that DOES thrill me.

Beyond that... well, no, we can't have All Pros EVERYWHERE—but we come pretty close: NINE Broncos were picked to start the Pro Bowl, and that's not counting Sanders and Anderson starting as alternates. Vasquez was an All Pro last year; put him back at guard and he will be again. Assuming Cladys lis-franc surgery slowed him this year (much as when he was coming off a season-ending injury a few years ago) he'll be back in All Pro shape next year. Plus "great" Malik Jackson and "good" Terrance Knighton, Brandon Marshall and Virgil Green. What are we up to now, 16? How many starting spots are LEFT...?

I know it was discussed 100 times after it happened, but let's do it again.

Per pretty much every bit of medical research out there...no one ever fully recovers from a lis-franc injury. So, I wouldn't invest too much into Clady being much better than what we saw this year.

Lancane
01-26-2015, 05:53 PM
Nope. If he stuck to the line sucks, maybe. On many different occasions he stated that Franklin was pretty freakin bad.

Franklin is my boy, I absolutely love him and what he brings to the team. I love his enthusiasm and I love how he plays through plays well past when other players have stopped. I love the man. And damn it...he deserves some shine after all the crap that was talked about him through the season.

Franklin next to Vasquez was the most consistent lineman we had, allowed only one sack this season and pretty much was one of the few bright spots on the offensive line - so I agree with you, he's earned a little shine, especially after the way so many were ready to move on past him last off-season - including myself.

Sadly, I am not sure that Franklin will return and he's far from the weakness of the offensive line.

GEM
01-26-2015, 05:59 PM
Franklin next to Vasquez was the most consistent lineman we had, allowed only one sack this season and pretty much was one of the few bright spots on the offensive line - so I agree with you, he's earned a little shine, especially after the way so many were ready to move on past him last off-season - including myself.

Sadly, I am not sure that Franklin will return and he's far from the weakness of the offensive line.

He has stated he wants to be a Bronco. He came from a really rough childhood in Ontario until his mom moved him to Florida hoping it would calm him down. He ended up with some robbery charges against him and it wasn't until he found football or rather a coach at his school found him that he got it together and went to Univ. of Miami. He has an afternoon show on with Scott Hastings and a couple other guys and he says he wants to be a Bronco til he retires. It's all he knows and all he wants to know. I sincerely hope he is.

Lancane
01-26-2015, 06:02 PM
I know people have all sorts of ideas about how to fix the line, but the best I believe would be to draft a left tackle, kick Clady to the right side next to Vasquez, keep Franklin at left guard and draft a center to compete with Ramirez and Paradis.

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:09 PM
I know people have all sorts of ideas about how to fix the line, but the best I believe would be to draft a left tackle, kick Clady to the right side next to Vasquez, keep Franklin at left guard and draft a center to compete with Ramirez and Paradis.

Cut Manram today and you have yourself a deal. Dude sucks balls.

Lancane
01-26-2015, 06:13 PM
Cut Manram today and you have yourself a deal. Dude sucks balls.

They'll keep him for depth and to compete, he is a free agent next year so as security he's a steal at this point.

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:24 PM
I can't stand him and all the issues started when he couldn't hold up at Center and they started shuffling him around.

During the playoff game and games before that he's looking behind him making calls on the line AS A GUARD. Get in your position, let Montgomery do the job YOU LOST and shut the hell up. No sooner than I was screaming at the tv for him to knock the shit off, he gets called for a False Start. Just hate him. He lost the job, that was on him.

Rick
01-26-2015, 06:28 PM
Good thing Rameriz never cost us a safety in a superbowl, that would spell the end in my book.

VonDoom
01-26-2015, 06:31 PM
Nope. If he stuck to the line sucks, maybe. On many different occasions he stated that Franklin was pretty freakin bad.

Franklin is my boy, I absolutely love him and what he brings to the team. I love his enthusiasm and I love how he plays through plays well past when other players have stopped. I love the man. And damn it...he deserves some shine after all the crap that was talked about him through the season.

They highlighted a bunch of players in that article, but I posted the Franklin bit just for you, Gem!


I know it was discussed 100 times after it happened, but let's do it again.

Per pretty much every bit of medical research out there...no one ever fully recovers from a lis-franc injury. So, I wouldn't invest too much into Clady being much better than what we saw this year.

Funny you should mention this, because Andrew Mason just posted this today:


Clady's persistence made his starting slot in the Pro Bowl all the more impressive, given what he endured to get there.

"I was struggling with it early in the season," Clady said. "I just tried to stay on top of it with treatment and stuff. It's the hardest injury I've ever had. I'm a year and a half from the first surgery now, and I still feel a little soreness here and there."

Fortunately for him and the Broncos, he expects the worst to be behind him.

"It's definitely better," Clady said, "and this next year I'm just excited to get a full offseason, I don't have to rehab, and just come back 100 percent."

The rest: http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/In-blocking-Ryan-Clady-ready-to-zone-out-/06e1f425-4125-49f5-b087-fc2649b6ed17


I know people have all sorts of ideas about how to fix the line, but the best I believe would be to draft a left tackle, kick Clady to the right side next to Vasquez, keep Franklin at left guard and draft a center to compete with Ramirez and Paradis.

It's easier to draft a plug and play interior lineman. I was down on Clady this year too, but it would be weird to have Clady lose his job to a rookie. LT is the most important position on the line, and I'd feel a little trepidation about doing that. Getting a good RT in FA or the draft, maybe drafting that C whose name I can't pronounce who's supposed to be made for ZBS, hope Clady is better and move Vasquez back. I'd feel a lot better about the line that way.


Cut Manram today and you have yourself a deal. Dude sucks balls.

I don't like him either. If we cut him, we take a miniscule dead money hit and save $3 million. I'd drop the hammer and assume we can get someone better for that money.

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:32 PM
Good thing Rameriz never cost us a safety in a superbowl, that would spell the end in my book.

:laugh:!!!

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:34 PM
They highlighted a bunch of players in that article, but I posted the Franklin bit just for you, Gem! Thanks Von! :D



Funny you should mention this, because Andrew Mason just posted this today:



The rest: http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/In-blocking-Ryan-Clady-ready-to-zone-out-/06e1f425-4125-49f5-b087-fc2649b6ed17



It's easier to draft a plug and play interior lineman. I was down on Clady this year too, but it would be weird to have Clady lose his job to a rookie. LT is the most important position on the line, and I'd feel a little trepidation about doing that. Getting a good RT in FA or the draft, maybe drafting that C whose name I can't pronounce who's supposed to be made for ZBS, hope Clady is better and move Vasquez back. I'd feel a lot better about the line that way.



I don't like him either. If we cut him, we take a miniscule dead money hit and save $3 million. I'd drop the hammer and assume we can get someone better for that money.
Even more reason....as if I need any! I don't track all the money crap, I just say what I like and what I don't (As if all of you didn't know that already :laugh: ) and me no likey Manram!

Joel
01-26-2015, 06:36 PM
Do you ever just admit you were wrong. There are multiple articles out there from people who know a whole lot more than you that say Franklin is damn good. You've done nothing but berate him this entire season. You were wrong!
Do any of those multiple articles cite anything or anyone but PFF? Because it's come up with some very dubious stats and comparisons in the past. The one that stuck in my mind was when they rated Rahim Moore per DENVER snap (so Champ and Harris padded his stats) and Mike Adams per HIS snaps and concluded we were right to start Moore. Well, Adams just had a 5-pick season and started at the Pro Bowl; we all know Moore's claim to fame. So does anyone OTHER than PFF think Franklin's elite? I get that he's your boy, but that doesn't win SBs.

All that said, I concede he's gotten better, is a better guard than he was an offensive tackle, and even pulled to lead block on a goal line TD. He's still VERY inconsistent, but that's an improvement on consistently getting his QB pasted, yes. Does it make him a net asset? Guess that's Elways call; I'm glad it's not PFFs.


I know it was discussed 100 times after it happened, but let's do it again.

Per pretty much every bit of medical research out there...no one ever fully recovers from a lis-franc injury. So, I wouldn't invest too much into Clady being much better than what we saw this year.
I've heard that, but have also heard some conflicting claims; I'm not a doctor so honestly don't know. I HOPE he comes back like or nearly like his old self, because then we need TWO offensive tackles, and going into another season with our 39-year-old Bionic QBs blindside naked is a recipe for disaster (if he's even willing to do it.) For what it's worth, I believe the lis-franc injury is to the foot of the same leg where he tore up his knee a few years ago, so it'd be unsurprising (but unfortunate) if he's got a permanent bad wheel now. I hope and pray that's not the case, but we may need to plan for it.

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:40 PM
Rahim Moore does suck balls. Franklin does not.

GEM
01-26-2015, 06:48 PM
The original article was posted on ESPN, PFF lists him at #13, this lists him at #15 http://athlonsports.com/nfl/2014-nfl-player-rankings-offensive-linemen, I mean I guess you could say that's just not good enough, but that is ALL linemen, every position on the line and he's named anywhere between 13-15 of 160 starters. Not sure what you want, but that's pretty damn good, even if you don't want to fully admit it. And that's in his first year playing G in the NFL after a pretty successful run at RT. I don't know what your expectations are, but they seem to be outlandish just going off stats and where experts rank him.

Joel
01-26-2015, 07:15 PM
The original article was posted on ESPN, PFF lists him at #13, this lists him at #15 http://athlonsports.com/nfl/2014-nfl-player-rankings-offensive-linemen, I mean I guess you could say that's just not good enough, but that is ALL linemen, every position on the line and he's named anywhere between 13-15 of 160 starters. Not sure what you want, but that's pretty damn good, even if you don't want to fully admit it. And that's in his first year playing G in the NFL after a pretty successful run at RT. I don't know what your expectations are, but they seem to be outlandish just going off stats and where experts rank him.
1. The OP says ESPN/PFF, hence VonDooms disclaimer that some here put no stock in PFF; I'm one of those some.
2. That Athlon Sports article is from PRESEASON and ranks Franklin as the 15th best TACKLE (NOT lineman, and certainly not GUARD; they ranked tackles, guards and even centers separately.)

I STRONGLY dispute he was even the 15th best of 64 starting OTs last year; Manning took too much heat from his right side, and well before the SB (though certainly there, too.) There's a few tackles out there starting more from team necessity than preference, but it's hard to believe even that put Franklin (barely) in the top 25% of last years starters.

GEM
01-26-2015, 07:21 PM
Then show me Joel...show me where he's ranked. Because I don't believe you that he's as bad as you say he is.

Ziggy
01-26-2015, 07:24 PM
Denver wasn't 2 players away from the super bowl. They were 2 coaches away. This is the most talented roster in the league top to bottom. Elway has already added one of the coaches with Kubiak. Hire a great D coordinator and this team has a serious shot to win it all next season.

Joel
01-26-2015, 07:29 PM
Then show me Joel...show me where he's ranked. Because I don't believe you that he's as bad as you say he is.
I'm just going by the eye test, with no rankings to show he sucks, but I've seen none but PFFs say he's great. Even that Athlon ranking only put him 15th out of 64 starting tackles in 2013, well above average, but not the stud folks make him out to be—and it also ranked Clady 6th among OTs: When he only played TWO GAMES! Whatever they based that on, it wasn't performance nor production.

Stats are hard to come by for linemen, but I do have one courtesy of Pro Football Reference: Franklin's drawn more penalties EACH of his four seasons, and false starts and holding flags are nearly always a telltale sign of a blocker not getting it done. I'd rather he hold or leave early than get Manning planted, but both stall drives and negate postive plays. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FranOr00/penalties//

Actually, I take that back: He WAS on pace to break his season record as late as November, but PFR doesn't show him with ANY penalties after that; he has indeed improved. Is it enough...?

GEM
01-26-2015, 07:35 PM
I'm just going by the eye test, with no rankings to show he sucks, but I've seen none but PFFs say he's great. Even that Athlon ranking only put him 15th out of 64 starting tackles in 2013, well above average, but not the stud folks make him out to be—and it also ranked Clady 6th among OTs: When he only played TWO GAMES! Whatever they based that on, it wasn't performance nor production.

Stats are hard to come by for linemen, but I do have one courtesy of Pro Football Reference: Franklin's drawn more penalties EACH of his four seasons, and false starts and holding flags are nearly always a telltale sign of a blocker not getting it done. I'd rather he hold or leave early than get Manning planted, but both stall drives and negate postive plays. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FranOr00/penalties//

Actually, I take that back: He WAS on pace to break his season record as late as November, but PFR doesn't show him with ANY penalties after that; he has indeed improved. Is it enough...?

Well since you can't provide proof, we're just going off your opinion that he's bad.

I disagree.

VonDoom
01-26-2015, 07:42 PM
Denver wasn't 2 players away from the super bowl. They were 2 coaches away. This is the most talented roster in the league top to bottom. Elway has already added one of the coaches with Kubiak. Hire a great D coordinator and this team has a serious shot to win it all next season.

Exactly. The idea that this team has a lot of needs is kind of crazy to me. We had a ton of pro bowlers but flamed out against a far inferior team at home. Those same players take some blame, sure, but the coaching was not there and it's hard to overcome that.

Joel
01-26-2015, 07:48 PM
Well since you can't provide proof, we're just going off your opinion that he's bad.

I disagree.
Fair enough; I've seen little evidence either way. I can't buy a top 2013 ranking for him from a place that ranked Clady 6th even though he missed 14 games. Again, lots of penalties are invariably a sign of a tackle grabbing because he got beat and/or leaving early because he can't make it to the edge in time, but Franklin did have a penalty-free December and January (thanks to Anderson hauling him away from an unsportsmanlike—twice!) so he's improved. Hopefully it's enough. We can agree to disagree though; I really would prefer to be wrong (honest.)

MOtorboat
01-26-2015, 08:49 PM
The exact reason I didn't post this this morning when I saw it is because I knew Joel would spam it.

You're wrong about Franklin and you can't back shit up dude. It's, frankly, weak.

TXBRONC
01-26-2015, 08:58 PM
Fair enough; I've seen little evidence either way. I can't buy a top 2013 ranking for him from a place that ranked Clady 6th even though he missed 14 games. Again, lots of penalties are invariably a sign of a tackle grabbing because he got beat and/or leaving early because he can't make it to the edge in time, but Franklin did have a penalty-free December and January (thanks to Anderson hauling him away from an unsportsmanlike—twice!) so he's improved. Hopefully it's enough. We can agree to disagree though; I really would prefer to be wrong (honest.)

Joel let it go because this looks like trolling.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2015, 09:37 PM
I know people have all sorts of ideas about how to fix the line, but the best I believe would be to draft a left tackle, kick Clady to the right side next to Vasquez, keep Franklin at left guard and draft a center to compete with Ramirez and Paradis.

I like this idea, but Clady's already one of the highest paid LTs in the NFL and even the best RTs make G money.

Oh, And btw, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha, Joel you suck at this. :eviltongue:

Lancane
01-26-2015, 09:55 PM
I like this idea, but Clady's already one of the highest paid LTs in the NFL and even the best RTs make G money.

True Jaded, but by drafting another left tackle he's only getting a rookie contract and then once Clady's deal is done that should be able to be used to lock up our new left tackle after that same said contract. Greg Robinson who was the second overall pick last year got a four year 21 million dollar deal, drafting and paying a rookie left tackle would be nothing at this point, especially in light of how piss poor Clady was this past year. What is he going to demand a trade? Good luck anyone taking on his contract when his play was so horrendous.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2015, 10:21 PM
True Jaded, but by drafting another left tackle he's only getting a rookie contract and then once Clady's deal is done that should be able to be used to lock up our new left tackle after that same said contract. Greg Robinson who was the second overall pick last year got a four year 21 million dollar deal, drafting and paying a rookie left tackle would be nothing at this point, especially in light of how piss poor Clady was this past year. What is he going to demand a trade? Good luck anyone taking on his contract when his play was so horrendous.

Think Ogbuehi can play LT? Cause he's dropping due to injury and there won't be a better LT at 28. He struggled at LT early but apparently he's been playing with a knee injury since last years bowl game, worst case he stays at RT.

I like him.

Donavan Smith reminds me a bit of Cordy Glenn, probably has to be a RT tho. No thank you to Sambrailo.

WJK
01-26-2015, 10:53 PM
Hopefully whoever we end up hiring for DC knows how to get the most out of Von. Jack Del Rio wasn't willing to trying anything exotic in his 1.5 seasons with Von. Dennis Allen knew how to use him better than anyone in blitz packages and in pass and run coverage.

Jsteve01
01-26-2015, 11:39 PM
Von's not built physically to hold up to all the abuse he faces every week if he's going heads up every down with tackles. I agree completely that they need to get him in space and use creative stunts and blitz packages. That is what's exciting about running a true 3-4 with he and Ware. I also think Smith and the youngster from Duke who showed so well last year in camp benefit from the switch.

Jsteve01
01-26-2015, 11:42 PM
Orlando Franklin gave up one sack last year and as is stated in the article run plays to LG averaged 5.6 ypc over the last six games. Those are just cold hard numbers Joel. Debate all you like about the validity or lack thereof of PFF quality stats but the numbers posted are real and quantifiable. And they are very solid. If he wasn't getting penalized almost once a game his value is through the roof. Watching him pull toward the end of the year was fun too and oddly enough a classic zone look.

Jsteve01
01-26-2015, 11:45 PM
Can't wait to see what young guys like Latimer, Schofield, Paradis, Barrow and Nelson do with an offseason under their belts. I'm still not high on Schofield. He lacks the feet to be a great tackle and the punch to be a great guard. I hope I'm wrong, but that pick felt like a miss when they made it and the fact that he still couldn't get in the mix with all the problems at rt doesn't offer much encouragement.

Lancane
01-27-2015, 12:41 AM
Can't wait to see what young guys like Latimer, Schofield, Paradis, Barrow and Nelson do with an offseason under their belts. I'm still not high on Schofield. He lacks the feet to be a great tackle and the punch to be a great guard. I hope I'm wrong, but that pick felt like a miss when they made it and the fact that he still couldn't get in the mix with all the problems at rt doesn't offer much encouragement.

Latimer has a chance to step up with Welker departing. Schofield sadly is better suited inside then at tackle, so really I don't expect much unless they feel he can step in and start at left guard in place of Franklin (which is unlikely). Barrow and many of the other linebackers including Nelson we have will get the chance to prove they belong inside for Denver in a 3-4 base, most of those we have are solid against the pass so should find they can do well. Paradis may benefit from ZBS, which is a better fit for his stature, he'll get a shot to compete...but as to whether he'll be more then fodder - I am unsure.

Denver is likely to have 10 Draft Picks this Draft, that is huge - Denver may add one or two free agents but nothing like we're use to because in-house free agents I feel will be more important.

Joel
01-27-2015, 12:17 PM
Latimer has a chance to step up with Welker departing. Schofield sadly is better suited inside then at tackle, so really I don't expect much unless they feel he can step in and start at left guard in place of Franklin (which is unlikely). Barrow and many of the other linebackers including Nelson we have will get the chance to prove they belong inside for Denver in a 3-4 base, most of those we have are solid against the pass so should find they can do well. Paradis may benefit from ZBS, which is a better fit for his stature, he'll get a shot to compete...but as to whether he'll be more then fodder - I am unsure.
I've been thinking about "Welker departing:" What if he DOESN'T? Would Elway cut him, and if not, what kind of flexibility do we have with Manning and Welker still on the roster at full salary?


Denver is likely to have 10 Draft Picks this Draft, that is huge - Denver may add one or two free agents but nothing like we're use to because in-house free agents I feel will be more important.
How so? We've only got 6 now; who'd we lose last year that justifies the full 4 extra picks? There's Decker and Beadles, but it's not like they had another Pro Bowl season. Phillips bounced around multiple teams before we faced him in the playoffs, and Moreno went on IR before the season was a month old.

Ziggy
01-27-2015, 12:20 PM
How so? We've only got 6 now; who'd we lose last year that justifies the full 4 extra picks? There's Decker and Beadles, but it's not like they had another Pro Bowl season. Phillips bounced around multiple teams before we faced him in the playoffs, and Moreno went on IR before the season was a month old.

Compensatory picks aren't given out based on performance. (edit-Not all based on performance) They're given out based on contracts. Joel, the draft isn't your forte. Why are you spamming this part of the board with nonsense?

Ziggy
01-27-2015, 12:21 PM
I've been thinking about "Welker departing:" What if he DOESN'T? Would Elway cut him, and if not, what kind of flexibility do we have with Manning and Welker still on the roster at full salary?


Welker's contract is up. Elway doesn't have to cut him. He just needs to not re-sign him.

Lancane
01-27-2015, 12:25 PM
I've been thinking about "Welker departing:" What if he DOESN'T? Would Elway cut him, and if not, what kind of flexibility do we have with Manning and Welker still on the roster at full salary?

He's an Unrestricted Free Agent and has not justified another big contract, especially give injuries, his age, etc.


How so? We've only got 6 now; who'd we lose last year that justifies the full 4 extra picks? There's Decker and Beadles, but it's not like they had another Pro Bowl season. Phillips bounced around multiple teams before we faced him in the playoffs, and Moreno went on IR before the season was a month old.

It's not based on playing time alone or simply their impact on a team, but also the league cap and the contracts that those players received. Right now I have Denver receiving a fourth, two sixth round picks and a seventh round pick. If the league salary cap plays out right Denver could end up with two fourth round compensation picks - but I doubt it will, especially given that almost all our free agents have made the Pro-Bowl.

Ziggy
01-27-2015, 12:35 PM
It's not based on playing time alone or simply their impact on a team, but also the league cap and the contracts that those players received. Right now I have Denver receiving a fourth, two sixth round picks and a seventh round pick. If the league salary cap plays out right Denver could end up with two fourth round compensation picks - but I doubt it will, especially given that almost all our free agents have made the Pro-Bowl.

From what I've gathered over the years, most of it is based on the players salary. Remember Lan, Ware doesn't count against the Broncos at all in this formula because he was cut from his team before the Broncos signed him.

Lancane
01-27-2015, 12:44 PM
From what I've gathered over the years, most of it is based on the players salary. Remember Lan, Ware doesn't count against the Broncos at all in this formula because he was cut from his team before the Broncos signed him.

Zigs, by being cut he officially became an Unrestricted Free Agent - he still counts. And the reason that making the Pro-Bowl could play a factor is based on possible clauses within a player's contract, so does he make another $500,000.00 for making the Pro-Bowl therein changing the aspect of his salary against the cap? If the new salary cap surpasses 142 million then Denver will receive a 4th Round Compensation Pick, otherwise they'll likely get a 6th instead.

Ziggy
01-27-2015, 01:11 PM
Zigs, by being cut he officially became an Unrestricted Free Agent - he still counts. And the reason that making the Pro-Bowl could play a factor is based on possible clauses within a player's contract, so does he make another $500,000.00 for making the Pro-Bowl therein changing the aspect of his salary against the cap? If the new salary cap surpasses 142 million then Denver will receive a 4th Round Compensation Pick, otherwise they'll likely get a 6th instead.

I disagree with you there. The only free agents that count against you when it comes to compensatory picks are the ones that you sign away from other teams.


With what is known for the formula, the Broncos signed only Aqib Talib, T.J. Ward and Emmanuel Sanders. They also signed DeMarcus Ware and Will Montgomery, but remember those rules I mentioned?

Well, the only players who count in the formula are players whose contract ended. Since Ware and Montgomery were both released, they do not count in the formula. Neither would any player the Broncos had, but ended up cutting. Another rule also takes players signed during the season out of the equation, so the Broncos losing Jeremy Mincey in free agency would not count as he was signed during the season. The formula does not count players on the league minimum salary, either.

http://den.scout.com/story/1503797-projected-broncos-compensatory-picks

VonDoom
01-27-2015, 01:15 PM
I disagree with you there. The only free agents that count against you when it comes to compensatory picks are the ones that you sign away from other teams.


http://den.scout.com/story/1503797-projected-broncos-compensatory-picks

Yep, I think this is right, Ziggy. All reports I've read on the NFL's confusing system say that guys who are cut don't count. I posted this link elsewhere but it's a good in-depth read if you have time:

http://overthecap.com/projecting-the-compensatory-draft-picks-for-2015/

Lancane
01-27-2015, 01:29 PM
I disagree with you there. The only free agents that count against you when it comes to compensatory picks are the ones that you sign away from other teams.

http://den.scout.com/story/1503797-projected-broncos-compensatory-picks

No, I think you misinterpreting what I am getting at, I am saying that Ward will cost Denver the value of a 4th Round compensation unless the cap issue is raised to a certain amount, not that we're getting a compensation pick specifically for him but that he effects the overall value despite his being cut.


TJ Ward will count as a 4th rounder against Denver. However, should the salary cap be greater than about $142 million, that would subsequently raise that cutoff, and possibly reduce Ward to a 5th rounder. But on the other hand, since Ward was named to the Pro Bowl it appears likely that he will end up as a 4th anyway. The reason this matters for Denver is because if Ward is a 5th instead of a 4th, he will cancel out a lower-valued player and give the Broncos a higher-valued pick (explained below). (In short, us Broncos fans should be rooting for a high salary cap in 2015, not only for this reason but so they have extra space to retain their key pending free agents.)”

http://predominantlyorange.com/2015/01/19/nfl-draft-broncos-expected-receive-four-compensatory-picks/

See where I am going? I am not arguing that he counts as a compensatory pick but could play a factor in to the value of what we receive.

Joel
01-27-2015, 02:25 PM
Compensatory picks aren't given out based on performance. (edit-Not all based on performance) They're given out based on contracts. Joel, the draft isn't your forte. Why are you spamming this part of the board with nonsense?
This isn't the draft forum *points up*. But no, the draft's not my forte, hence the "how so?" I only know the little I've skimmed about comp picks being based on a proprietary formula including pay, postseason advancement and Pro Bowl selections; that's why I asked: Because it seemed strange, but there's plenty I don't know about the process.


Welker's contract is up. Elway doesn't have to cut him. He just needs to not re-sign him.


He's an Unrestricted Free Agent and has not justified another big contract, especially give injuries, his age, etc.
Good enough; I thought he had a year left, but that simplifies things after a bad year that started with a substance abuse suspension and enough concussions Elway might talk him into retiring for his own good.


It's not based on playing time alone or simply their impact on a team, but also the league cap and the contracts that those players received. Right now I have Denver receiving a fourth, two sixth round picks and a seventh round pick. If the league salary cap plays out right Denver could end up with two fourth round compensation picks - but I doubt it will, especially given that almost all our free agents have made the Pro-Bowl.
After reading the further discussion, I'm unsure ANYONE but Goodell (if that) REALLY knows how comp picks work. :tongue:

Simple Jaded
01-27-2015, 11:30 PM
These comp rules are clear as mud.