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G_Money
01-19-2015, 10:53 PM
Look, I think I've made it clear I'm pretty supportive and optimistic about this change. I like Kubiak the man and the coach, and think John made a good hire.

That said: what are the concerns to watch for going forward? These are my top 3:

1) Nepotism/quality of hires vs. quality of friends: This was Shanny's downfall: his inability to select a defensive coordinator who was actually good at/qualified for the job. Knowing Shanny's home address appeared to be more important than knowing how to stop opposing offenses.

Kubiak appears to be bringing his old OC and TE coach, his old OL consultant, and maybe his old DB coach with him. Since he failed at his last stop in Houston, he might not want to get the WHOLE band back together. I don't mind him getting his offensive guys to rally around him - offense is his strong suit.

But I'd like an aggressively competent DC as well - whether or not he cannonballs into Kubiak's pool on the weekends. Maybe Joseph is the guy, and Kubiak already knowing him well is just a bonus to snagging him before others can. I'm hoping that's the case. But Kubes has a friend, friend, friend, friend track record at the coaching position, and I was rather hoping Elway would break him of that. We'll see how that unfolds.

2) Conservative playcalling. God, am I tired of this. And Texans fans will call Kubiak as conservative as we ever called Fox. A distinct lack of trickeration (since boots are standard in his O), a lack of courage on short-yardage or goal line situations, 4th down willies, and putting the game in the hands of people ill-equipped to handle it (special teams, bone-headed QB maneuvers, etc). Since he picked the special teamers, kickers, QBs, etc it seems hard to blame someone else for that. Has he learned his lesson? You can BE conservative if your defense and special teams are great. Ask Seattle. But Kubes has rarely had that luxury. So if he HAS to make it happen on offense, I hope he learned that he might want to resort to using that offensive genius in charge instead of hoping the lesser talents can carry the day. If he's unsure, he should probably call McCarthy in Green Bay and have a little chat.

3) QB/personnel situation: This is more a musing than a true concern - yet. I'm on record as disliking Oz. I think his yellow brick road is a few bricks short of a full path, and that monkeys are gonna set fire to his scarecrow self. That said, if I was gonna trust anybody to set him on the right path it would be Kubiak. So if Manning retires and we go with Osweiler, I'll believe Kubiak can turn him around. I would rather draft a QB, but this is a pretty shitty draft for em after Mariota. Kubes could probably find another Schaub or Alex Smith type in it though, for what that's worth.

If Manning comes back, how will Kubiak integrate him into the offense while simultaneously preparing for his departure in a season or two? I'm really curious to see that. A fierce running game will absolutely help (and will require some new linemen) and we have a lot of decisions to make on free agents. That's more Elway's job than Kubiak's, but if you think they aren't gonna be dissecting and reassembling the roster over some beers at Buffalo Wild Wings, you're probably mistaken. How we do that will go a long way to seeing us over the hump - or left on the side of the road in a ditch.

Wishing you the best, Gary. :salute: You bleed orange, and we love you for it.

But we'll love you more if you pull a Shanahan and grab a ring for a HOFer.

DenBronx
01-19-2015, 11:02 PM
That he didnt do good in Houston as a HC. He does good as an OC but some guys dont make good HCs. That's my only concern and ill just wait and see while hoping for the best.

MOtorboat
01-19-2015, 11:07 PM
I have lots of concerns. You outline the largest in your first entry, so I won't expound upon that here.

One of the downfalls of the Shanahan regime was recognizing and addressing problems in the offseason and then trying to fix those problems. I think we saw some of this with the offensive line last season. The problem wasn't Orlando Franklin and yet they made him the scapegoat and moved him to the interior of the line. If I can see that moving a perfectly equipped tackle to guard is an issue than so should those in charge. I'm rambling, but essentially the offensive line needs fixed. One of two things have to happen. Franklin goes back to tackle and Denver drafts of signs a left guard or Denver drafts or signs a right tackle. When I say draft, I mean first or second round.

Likewise, nose tackle could be an issue, especially if Kubiak chooses to go with a 3-4. These are the problem areas and they have to be addressed. If not, it's going to be frustrating. Elway clearly addressed one issue, which is coaching, so I hope he can address the others. I hope he doesnt think just hiding his buddy fixes those issues. It wasn't just coaching.

No matter what some will tell you, Kubiak was nothing but mediocre in Houston. I hope the ownership was holding him back. I have my doubts.

He's also seen as some quarterback guru, but Schaub had all the talent in the world and didn't become a top flight quarterback, so I'm immediately skeptical.

Jsteve01
01-19-2015, 11:18 PM
Yep read what the media had to say in Houston after Kubes was fired and they'll tell you that he was overly conservative and didn't manage games well. I would hope that a huge part of the conversation at Morton's was regarding what went wrong in Houston.

All that said, his first go round was better than Belichek's or Carroll's or Coughlin's all of whom have rings. I like the idea of the hometown hero bringing another ring to Denver

BroncoNut
01-19-2015, 11:46 PM
A lot of concerns with bringing people back. Its like trying to recapture the golden years and that's just not gonna happen. Ie: Joe gibbs at Washington redskins circa 07/08

artie_dale
01-19-2015, 11:49 PM
I think coaches deserve 2nd and maybe even 3rd chances. I'm glad Kubes was fired in Houston, but when his team was healthy, they were a force. The team (not just him), couldn't find good enough replacements when those players did go down. Kubes got the blame like every head coach of a team that doesn't turn it around. We have Elway to put players in position to "next man up".

The point made about bringing in the good ole boys, concerns me too. It's already happening. I hope Elway can put a halt on that before Kubes gets too carried away.

We'll see if Kubes learned from his time in Houston (I'm confident he did). All we need now is a good DC to utilize all that talent we have on defense.

I also think that if Peyton doesn't return, Brock Osweiller could benefit more under a Kube's offense than a Gase's.

Lancane
01-20-2015, 02:45 AM
I think coaches deserve 2nd and maybe even 3rd chances. I'm glad Kubes was fired in Houston, but when his team was healthy, they were a force. The team (not just him), couldn't find good enough replacements when those players did go down. Kubes got the blame like every head coach of a team that doesn't turn it around. We have Elway to put players in position to "next man up".

The point made about bringing in the good ole boys, concerns me too. It's already happening. I hope Elway can put a halt on that before Kubes gets too carried away.

We'll see if Kubes learned from his time in Houston (I'm confident he did). All we need now is a good DC to utilize all that talent we have on defense.

I also think that if Peyton doesn't return, Brock Osweiller could benefit more under a Kube's offense than a Gase's.

It's not like the team/staff is overloaded with former staff. In fact thus far only Dennison and Pariani on board with Gibbs possibly coming on board as a consultant. They're likely to keep Knapp if he doesn't get the Baltimore OC Position and will likely ask Clancy Barone to move to Offensive Line Coach, Tolbert has already been asked to stay as Wide Receivers Coach. Vance Joseph is the front runner for the DC position and while from Colorado has no ties to the team outside Kubiak and Phillips. The Defensive Staff has been gutted give Smith (LBers) and Jay Rodgers (DL) - no word if they'll be retained, but that means some new blood - if they reach out to another DC like Schwartz they'll likely bring in several new coaches.

My concern is that boneheaded fans upset that their favorite candidate for the job will be too quick to judge and will not give him the respect and time he deserves - like those of us against Fox did despite disliking the hire. If he is not 14-2 and they win the Super Bowl year one then it was a mistake or that he failed, when what they want is to improve - improvement to me would simply not be quitting midway through the season let alone in games, especially important ones.

Canmore
01-20-2015, 03:04 AM
It's not like the team/staff is overloaded with former staff. In fact thus far only Dennison and Pariani on board with Gibbs possibly coming on board as a consultant. They're likely to keep Knapp if he doesn't get the Baltimore OC Position and will likely ask Clancy Barone to move to Offensive Line Coach, Tolbert has already been asked to stay as Wide Receivers Coach. Vance Joseph is the front runner for the DC position and while from Colorado has no ties to the team outside Kubiak and Phillips. The Defensive Staff has been gutted give Smith (LBers) and Jay Rodgers (DL) - no word if they'll be retained, but that means some new blood - if they reach out to another DC like Schwartz they'll likely bring in several new coaches.

My concern is that boneheaded fans upset that their favorite candidate for the job will be too quick to judge and will not give him the respect and time he deserves - like those of us against Fox did despite disliking the hire. If he is not 14-2 and they win the Super Bowl year one then it was a mistake or that he failed, when what they want is to improve - improvement to me would simply not be quitting midway through the season let alone in games, especially important ones.

Ouch...but true.

Northman
01-20-2015, 05:27 AM
All i will say is this, there are a lot of comparisons to Shanahan but none of this is about Shanahan. There is no guarantee that Kubiak will work or be a great HC for Denver but i think trying to compare this situation to the Shanahan situation is a far reach. Elway to me has done NOTHING to suggest that this situation is even remotely the same thing.

Shazam!
01-20-2015, 07:45 AM
Bellichick was labeled mediocre in Cleveland.

MileHighCrew
01-20-2015, 08:17 AM
Cleveland is mediocre in Cleveland. They move to Baltimore and win titles

jhildebrand
01-20-2015, 12:54 PM
All coaches try to bring in guys they know and have familiarity with. I am not going to hold that against Kubiak up front. I certainly not going to hold that against him when the guy who hired him has now done just that! It would be disingenuous, IMHO, to hold it against Kubiak but not Elway.

I have a different concern with all of this.

Elway-it was clear Fox was going to be gone with anything short of a Super Bowl appearance and probably win for that matter. It was equally well known that Kubiak would be the guy. While there were a couple interviews that took place and a few cancelled, my concern is it feels like the team didn't really truly 'look' at anybody. The biggest concern I have is Elway now has his dear friend as a coach. How is that going to work if things get tough? :confused: Also, seeing how this is Elway's hand picked guy from the start, if things do go poorly will he allow it to go on longer than necessary because of the friendship and it being his second hire? I have seen this dynamic up close and personal many times and rarely does it work or end well.

GEM
01-20-2015, 12:56 PM
All coaches try to bring in guys they know and have familiarity with. I am not going to hold that against Kubiak up front. I certainly not going to hold that against him when the guy who hired him has now done just that! It would be disingenuous, IMHO, to hold it against Kubiak but not Elway.

I have a different concern with all of this.

Elway-it was clear Fox was going to be gone with anything short of a Super Bowl appearance and probably win for that matter. It was equally well known that Kubiak would be the guy. While there were a couple interviews that took place and a few cancelled, my concern is it feels like the team didn't really truly 'look' at anybody. The biggest concern I have is Elway now has his dear friend as a coach. How is that going to work if things get tough? :confused: Also, seeing how this is Elway's hand picked guy from the start, if things do go poorly will he allow it to go on longer than necessary because of the friendship and it being his second hire? I have seen this dynamic up close and personal many times and rarely does it work or end well.

He fired his father's best friend and dear friend to him from the Crush after only a year and knowing it wasn't the right fit. He doesn't have issues making those kind of hard decisions if need be for the betterment of the team.

BroncoWave
01-20-2015, 01:02 PM
All coaches try to bring in guys they know and have familiarity with. I am not going to hold that against Kubiak up front. I certainly not going to hold that against him when the guy who hired him has now done just that! It would be disingenuous, IMHO, to hold it against Kubiak but not Elway.

I have a different concern with all of this.

Elway-it was clear Fox was going to be gone with anything short of a Super Bowl appearance and probably win for that matter. It was equally well known that Kubiak would be the guy. While there were a couple interviews that took place and a few cancelled, my concern is it feels like the team didn't really truly 'look' at anybody. The biggest concern I have is Elway now has his dear friend as a coach. How is that going to work if things get tough? :confused: Also, seeing how this is Elway's hand picked guy from the start, if things do go poorly will he allow it to go on longer than necessary because of the friendship and it being his second hire? I have seen this dynamic up close and personal many times and rarely does it work or end well.

Read the SI artile that was posted about Elway before the Colts game. It was talking about how when he ran the Crush, he fired a guy who had been a close friend of his for years and was even in his wedding, because he wasn't getting it done. I don't think he's a guy who will just give his buddies breaks if they aren't getting it done.

BroncoWave
01-20-2015, 01:03 PM
He fired his father's best friend and dear friend to him from the Crush after only a year and knowing it wasn't the right fit. He doesn't have issues making those kind of hard decisions if need be for the betterment of the team.

Didn't see this post before I made mine. But yeah, I think Elway cares more about winning than maintaining friendships.

Buff
01-20-2015, 01:16 PM
My main concern is with the assistants. I like Kubiak as a leader and an offensive mastermind - I think he is a net upgrade from Fox. I'm not sure if we can say the same about our potential OC or DC yet.

I would have liked to see some new/different assistants to push him out of his comfort zone. Bringing in former LB Rick Dennison to coordinate our offense doesn't inspire a lot of faith with me. Maybe it's more of a formality since Kubiak will be running his offense, but I would have liked to see an OC who could bring in added value, not a retread who is already well versed in what Kubiak is trying to accomplish.

I worry about bringing in a young unknown at DC. Our defense saw a resurgence under Fox who was a defensive oriented HC, but prior to that it had been a problem area for a number of years. Kubiak is an offensive specialist... So the D would seem to be at the biggest risk of regression, and I'm not sure a first time DC inspires much confidence for me.

GEM
01-20-2015, 01:17 PM
Didn't see this post before I made mine. But yeah, I think Elway cares more about winning than maintaining friendships.

There is a story out there that Elway had a pool table in his house that was absolutely beautiful and he was never beaten on it. One of the guys finally beat him on it and he had it removed from his house the next day. The guy is fiercely competitive.

Lancane
01-20-2015, 01:20 PM
There is a story out there that Elway had a pool table in his house that was absolutely beautiful and he was never beaten on it. One of the guys finally beat him on it and he had it removed from his house the next day. The guy is fiercely competitive.

Holy ****! I never heard that one... But if there is a concern with Elway it would be that being too fierce a competitor can backfire because while it's not impatience it is close enough that decisions made due to the fact look porous and are sometimes premature. Though Fox leaving does not in my mind fit that, in truth he should have never been hired...well that is my opinion at least.

Joel
01-20-2015, 07:49 PM
All i will say is this, there are a lot of comparisons to Shanahan but none of this is about Shanahan. There is no guarantee that Kubiak will work or be a great HC for Denver but i think trying to compare this situation to the Shanahan situation is a far reach. Elway to me has done NOTHING to suggest that this situation is even remotely the same thing.
All the stuff about Elway just going back to what worked for him 20 years ago and/or merely phoning a friend smacks of lazy journalism to me. As others have noted, it's abundantly clear from his management record in the arena league and now the NFL that his bottom line top priority is winning, and not just games nor division titles, but championships. He knew bringing Kubes back will frequently strain their friendship even if it achieves his goals: In a very real sense he wanted Kubiak DESPITE their friendship (and the risks to which working together subjected it.)

It's not because he can't THINK of anything else and is just falling back on the Shanahan model either: Kubiak and Dennisons philosophy and schemes are so antiquated they turned the 29th ranked 2013 Ravens offense into the 11 ranked 2014 Ravens offense. As long as we get a quality DC like Phillips to bring a quality defensive staff, I'm not worried.

Yet to the extent this IS Shanny 2.0, I keep wondering how much of championship offense was Kubiak rather than Shanny, and how much Dennison rather than Shanny kept it going after it got Kubes his first HC job. For all the impatience of Bob McNair and his like-minded critics, the RECORD shows he and Dennison had nothing BUT success in Houston, then Baltimore, while Shanny went to Washington and... didn't (though I'm pretty sure much of that was Snyder.) Did we even talk to EITHER Shanahan about ANY coaching position? Maybe there's a reason....

silkamilkamonico
01-20-2015, 09:24 PM
My concern is ELway not even really looking past Kube and giving others a shot. We had what, 1 other interview for the HC gig? A charity case in Adam Gase. And don't give me anything about Ausitn and Marrone dropping out, because I will just say there is a reason they both did, and his name is Gary Kubiak. People here talked about how Elway did a great job going through due process and taking his time and not rushing anything, but who are we kidding, Elway was all about about Kube from the moment Fox was officially gone.

MileHighCrew
01-20-2015, 09:28 PM
My concern is ELway not even really looking past Kube and giving others a shot. We had what, 1 other interview for the HC gig? A charity case in Adam Gase. And don't give me anything about Ausitn and Marrone dropping out, because I will just say there is a reason they both did, and his name is Gary Kubiak. People here talked about how Elway did a great job going through due process and taking his time and not rushing anything, but who are we kidding, Elway was all about about Kube from the moment Fox was officially gone.

the only person i wish he would have talked to was quinn but they were not allowed and he is going to the falcons. aside from that i don't believe anyone is a better selection to be the hc of denver then cubic

Lancane
01-21-2015, 12:02 PM
My concern is ELway not even really looking past Kube and giving others a shot. We had what, 1 other interview for the HC gig? A charity case in Adam Gase. And don't give me anything about Ausitn and Marrone dropping out, because I will just say there is a reason they both did, and his name is Gary Kubiak. People here talked about how Elway did a great job going through due process and taking his time and not rushing anything, but who are we kidding, Elway was all about about Kube from the moment Fox was officially gone.

Okay Silk, fair points. But it also did not help they jumped in the race late and Glazier was out there shining Fox's ass like it was brass around the league which made many feel it was on Elway, those stepping up on Elway's behalf were a week late and a dollar short to the parade IMHO. I myself, like you would have been all for Rex Ryan coming to Denver, but that didn't happen and all bounced in Kubiak's favor at that point. Had Ryan, Del Rio and especially Harbaugh been available I feel this would have been far different, in fact I believe had Harbaugh not taken the Michigan job he'd be the Head Coach in Denver right now.

silkamilkamonico
01-21-2015, 12:06 PM
I cant stand the Kubiak hire, but it is what it is. My legitimate concern moving forward is that defense will not be a focal point, and considering he wants some guy who's a defensive back coach to be the DC has me very concerned. That's ok if the head oach is defensive oriented, but there is nothing defensive about Kubiak or Elway - they need to get a proven guy in there and let him run the defense.

Lancane
01-21-2015, 12:10 PM
I cant stand the Kubiak hire, but it is what it is. My legitimate concern moving forward is that defense will not be a focal point, and considering he wants some guy who's a defensive back coach to be the DC has me very concerned. That's ok if the head oach is defensive oriented, but there is nothing defensive about Kubiak or Elway - they need to get a proven guy in there and let him run the defense.

Well, your going to be real pissed if they go with someone familiar that doesn't have a great track record because of familiarity, as will I. It would be that move that made me seriously question this whole thing.

silkamilkamonico
01-21-2015, 12:12 PM
Well, your going to be real pissed if they go with someone familiar that doesn't have a great track record because of familiarity, as will I. It would be that move that made me seriously question this whole thing.

Someone who doesn't have a great track record but has some experience vs someone who is a defensive backs position coach to be the head man on the defensive side. If that's the case, wow.

Rick
01-21-2015, 12:13 PM
Someone who doesn't have a great track record but has some experience vs someone who is a defensive backs position coach to be the head man on the defensive side. If that's the case, wow.

Last rumor, which could turn out to be utter BS, was they were considering Smith, our LB coach, a guy who Kubiak actually fired in Houston in the past.

Lancane
01-21-2015, 12:16 PM
Last rumor, which could turn out to be utter BS, was they were considering Smith, our LB coach, a guy who Kubiak actually fired in Houston in the past.

Exactly... Which is pathetic, I can name a dozen or so better candidates off the top of my head. This literally would be the step that makes me question this entire ordeal.

silkamilkamonico
01-21-2015, 12:17 PM
I don't think the rumor of consideration of Smith somehow enlightens the hope that we get VJ. It's one of the same to me and I don't understand wtf Elway is doing here.

Buff
01-21-2015, 12:21 PM
Exactly... Which is pathetic, I can name a dozen or so better candidates off the top of my head. This literally would be the step that makes me question this entire ordeal.

Just for the sake of discussion - I don't know why Dennison gets a pass but Smith seems to be universally questioned. Dennison is merely an extension of Kubiak and doesn't really bring his own system or any unique coaching experience beyond what Kubiak brings. He is arguably more of a nepotistic hire than Smith would be.

I don't love the idea of hiring Smith and I don't love the idea of making Dennison the de facto OC either. I guess my point is that I have been questioning every single assistant hire thus far.

BroncoJoe
01-21-2015, 12:23 PM
Man. It's brutal in here. I hope Kubes doesn't read this garbage!

Pudge
01-21-2015, 12:23 PM
Just for the sake of discussion - I don't know why Dennison gets a pass but Smith seems to be universally questioned. Dennison is merely an extension of Kubiak and doesn't really bring his own system or any unique coaching experience beyond what Kubiak brings. He is arguably more of a nepotistic hire than Smith would be.

I don't love the idea of hiring Smith and I don't love the idea of making Dennison the de facto OC either. I guess my point is that I have been questioning every single assistant hire thus far.

Maybe in a couple years you can go all Joel like and tell us all I told you so. As for me I'm going to sit back and hope for the best, because it's all I can do.

Rick
01-21-2015, 12:24 PM
Just for the sake of discussion - I don't know why Dennison gets a pass but Smith seems to be universally questioned. Dennison is merely an extension of Kubiak and doesn't really bring his own system or any unique coaching experience beyond what Kubiak brings. He is arguably more of a nepotistic hire than Smith would be.

I don't love the idea of hiring Smith and I don't love the idea of making Dennison the de facto OC either. I guess my point is that I have been questioning every single assistant hire thus far.

Because Kubiak will be the guy calling the plays and running the offense, Dennison is OC in name only, he just helps to implement Kubiaks system.

Whomever we hire at DC on the other hand will actually be the one managing the defense and calling the plays.

Buff
01-21-2015, 12:25 PM
Maybe in a couple years you can go all Joel like and tell us all I told you so. As for me I'm going to sit back and hope for the best, because it's all I can do.

No, you can also complain along the way.

Pudge
01-21-2015, 12:26 PM
No, you can also complain along the way.

Yeah but then I'd get on my own nerves

Lancane
01-21-2015, 12:27 PM
I don't think the rumor of consideration of Smith somehow enlightens the hope that we get VJ. It's one of the same to me and I don't understand wtf Elway is doing here.

With Joseph I can at least see the attraction since he hails from the trees of two really good coordinators, but going with Smith who's units in Houston were the 25th, 22nd and then 27th ranked during his tenure, even with talent like Mario Williams and two other first round defensive lineman including Amobi Okoye?

Hell, Frank Bush came in a year later with the same squad add Brian Cushing and raised them to 17th in the league.