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View Full Version : If we never got Manning - how would the last three yearshave unfolded?



Valar Morghulis
01-17-2015, 09:25 AM
Would Elway have ridden Tebow in 2012?

Would he have drafted a different qb?

Would we be divisional champs 4 years running?

Who would we likely have made a play for instead?

Thoughts?

olathebroncofan
01-17-2015, 09:34 AM
I think after Tebow playoff run, he would have been gone, or at least a battling with a 1st or 2nd round rookie.

I think our defense was so battle tested that year that their success would have carried them through the next few years.

I think we would have been good enough to win a few afc west titles. Iirc, KC really wasn't relevant until last year, and SD had their own issues. So just considering that we don't play in an ultra competitive division, I think with our talent level, we win 2 or three division titles.

Maybe not last year though. I think the Chiefs 9-0 run to start the season might have been too much to overcome with out manning.

Northman
01-17-2015, 09:44 AM
Initially i thought that Elway might go with another year with Teebs. However, recent articles suggest that Elway was never looking at Tebow as a long term plan so i think we would of been drafting a QB and probably signing another vet of some kind to either let the young guy sit behind him or back the the rookie up. Maybe a little of both. The problem is you really cant say how we would of done, i dont think we would of won or even made the SB but considering we went 8-8 with Tebow i seriously doubt we would of done much worse than that the following years. Im guessing we would probably be in that 8-10 win range with some early playoff exits as the team gained experience, etc. Just depends on what moves Elway and company would of made, would they have traded to move up for a QB? Would they have traded back to stockpile? Hard to say because getting Manning changed the picture a lot for us.

Joel
01-17-2015, 09:46 AM
Not being God, I can't know what might've been, and speculating now is as dangerous as it was then, yet far more pointless.

Valar Morghulis
01-17-2015, 09:52 AM
Not being God, I can't know what might've been, and speculating now is as dangerous as it was then, yet far more pointless.

Obviously, but I find this more fun than using big words , berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people with insanely long and banal posts.

Don't have anything constructive to add - don't post in that thread you ******* milquetoast.

Blocked.

Northman
01-17-2015, 09:57 AM
Lol, thats probably the angriest ive seen Dave on here. haha.

7DnBrnc53
01-17-2015, 10:21 AM
Alternate scenario: Manning things about it for a while, and goes back to Tennessee, where he played his college ball.

Tebow was gone no matter what, and the Broncos would have drafted Brandon Weeden in the first round.

With the talent available, and in a sorry division, the Broncos are still able to go 10-6, but lose in the first round in 2012.

Last season, though, the Broncos end up 6-10 as injuries and poor play from Weeden catch up to them. So, Brandon is shown the door, Fox and Del Rio are fired, and Gary Kubiak is brought in to be the new Bronco coach after getting fired in Houston.

The Broncos, picking 6th overall, think about trying to trade up for Bortles, but the price is too high. So, Elway contacts the Steelers, who have the 16th pick (Jake Matthews is there, and Pittsburgh needs a franchise LT). Pittsburgh gives up that pick, a second rounder, and a 2015 third-rounder to move up to 6th overall, and they take Matthews, while the Broncos take C.J. Mosley at 16.

Then, Elway packages their two second-rounders to trade up with New England(who is famous for trading out of Round 1), and he drafts Fresno State QB Derek Carr. Denver brings in Matt Schaub to caddy for him, but Carr replaces him by Week 5. The Broncos have a 2-game improvement over 2013, and a young QB to develop for the future.

BroncoJoe
01-17-2015, 10:24 AM
Joel refusing to speculate? My God - that's what 99% of his 3,000 word posts are!

Oh, and I'd appreciate if if you don't quote him. I have him blocked as well.

Rick
01-17-2015, 10:26 AM
We would have still taken Brock, who knows what the offense would look like in 2012 and 2013 but I think Elway would have brought in Kubes and Dennison in 2014 to help out Brock right after they got fired.

Valar Morghulis
01-17-2015, 10:32 AM
Alternate scenario: Manning things about it for a while, and goes back to Tennessee, where he played his college ball.

Tebow was gone no matter what, and the Broncos would have drafted Brandon Weeden in the first round.

With the talent available, and in a sorry division, the Broncos are still able to go 10-6, but lose in the first round in 2012.

Last season, though, the Broncos end up 6-10 as injuries and poor play from Weeden catch up to them. So, Brandon is shown the door, Fox and Del Rio are fired, and Gary Kubiak is brought in to be the new Bronco coach after getting fired in Houston.

The Broncos, picking 6th overall, think about trying to trade up for Bortles, but the price is too high. So, Elway contacts the Steelers, who have the 16th pick (Jake Matthews is there, and Pittsburgh needs a franchise LT). Pittsburgh gives up that pick, a second rounder, and a 2015 third-rounder to move up to 6th overall, and they take Matthews, while the Broncos take C.J. Mosley at 16.

Then, Elway packages their two second-rounders to trade up with New England(who is famous for trading out of Round 1), and he drafts Fresno State QB Derek Carr. Denver brings in Matt Schaub to caddy for him, but Carr replaces him by Week 5. The Broncos have a 2-game improvement over 2013, and a young QB to develop for the future.

Now that is how to answer a question like that!

Rick
01-17-2015, 10:32 AM
Thinking on this, off topic, I wonder if Elway wanted Fox to reach out to Kubes after the Superbowl crushing to bring the offense here and Fox refused, thus starting the strife between Elway and Fox.

underrated29
01-17-2015, 11:19 AM
Is that an Irish English term? Three yearsshave?

Ah, I looked backed and it's just the space missing. Too bad, I like yearsshave better.




As for manning and the yearsshave it was reported we would have taken brandon weeden with our first. Thank god we did not. Is he even in the league? Only 2 years in and he is out. Bad news bears. I feel he would have done ok with us. Kyle Orton ok. We probably would have been champs at least one year but the Chargers probably would have bested us a few years too.

We also likely would not have been able to lure as many of the awesome Probowl FA we did had we not had manning.

BroncoJoe
01-17-2015, 11:35 AM
Weeden backs up Romo in Dallas.

Ravage!!!
01-17-2015, 11:51 AM
well... Brock was "plan B" of the Manning signing. Would we have gone for another QB had Manning not signed? Hard to tell since the QB class that year was top heavy.

But I think we might have drafted Brock nonetheless, and brought in a Vet QB to help bring some 'experience' to the team. Tebow would still have been gone, and the vet would have started the season, but Brock would have finished the season as the starter. We most probably would have finished under .500. That's where it gets even MORE difficult, who would we have used that higher draft pick on? What position? Maybe OL?

Then, the second year we would have started Brock from game 1. That would have told us if we believe we have a guy that can be a capable starter, or a guy that needs to be replaced. The team had a lot of talent, and I think we would have finished 8-8 by then, but would have finished 3rd in our division behind KC and SD.

So the third year would have been either a 'reloading'...or dependin on how Brock had played his first 1.5 as a starter, possibly starting over with another QB. But betting Elway brings in another vet.

Free Agency would have been completely different as players wouldn't have been as anxious to sign with Denver without Manning behind center.

Joel
01-17-2015, 11:51 AM
Joel refusing to speculate? My God - that's what 99% of his 3,000 word posts are!

Oh, and I'd appreciate if if you don't quote him. I have him blocked as well.
Speculating what might be can be educationally confirmed/refuted by time, but speculating what might have BEEN just causes arguments forever because it's impossible to ever know who's right. There's nothing "constructive" there: That's my whole objection. To borrow a great line, "what if Walter Camp had gone to Vassar?" We'd be discussing Denver soccer team.

I said my piece three years ago on the alternate reality where we don't sign Manning, and the reaction was so "constructive" it STILL gets me accused of "berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people." Even when I DON'T repeat my answer to a now-irrelevant question, everyone remembers and I STILL catch Hell for it.

jhildebrand
01-17-2015, 12:21 PM
I can't say what would have happened. However, at the time, some of us questioned if getting Manning would be enough. Some of us felt we were more than 1 player away from winning a Super Bowl and wanted to focus on building the right way.

That said, we are far better off having had Manning. Getting Manning, even though the team didn't win a Super Bowl, enabled-at least made it easier-for John Elway to lure big time FA's. Getting Manning brought this team back to respectability but also to the level of one of the premier organizations in the league.

Ravage!!!
01-17-2015, 01:05 PM
I still don't know what this "right way" is.

Some said the same thing when McDoosh was dumping people left and right, and said "he's doing it the right way." "It's the right way to build a team."

jhildebrand
01-17-2015, 01:50 PM
Good point, Rav. There are a 1,000 ways through the forest so to speak. For me, the right way is the way Seattle, Pittsburgh, Indy, Green Bay, and Arizona to a degree have built. Build the majority of the team through the draft and only slightly enhance it through FA. San Diego when they went on their runs did that. They built through the draft.

To me that is the right way because it more readily lends itself to long term success where as consistently buying players via FA tends to skew the cap pretty quickly.

NightTerror218
01-17-2015, 01:56 PM
I think we would have still have drafted Oz and he would have challenged Tebow for starting job and won it.

Without Manning , Elway could not just drop Tebow. And everyone knew how high he was on Oz. Tebow would have only lasted the year. I do think we would not have signed ware. Kept signing of FA to younger players like Ward and Talib.

Simple Jaded
01-17-2015, 02:13 PM
Obviously, but I find this more fun than using big words , berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people with insanely long and banal posts.

Don't have anything constructive to add - don't post in that thread you ******* milquetoast.

Blocked.

Joel just doesn't wanna take the bait and let his Tebow obsession out to play, he's spent the last 3 seasons denying the monster, repressing it, but deep inside he is aching to pen a weeklong diatribe about how things should've been instead of how things actually went.

Joel used to be the single most annoyingly positive poster around, he was full of optimism for the direction this team was going....then. . .Elway was hired! It went from Joel being the most pleasant person around to being "the talent around Tebow sucks" and complex algorithms to replace Passer Ratings.

Since then it's been one thing after, Manning too old, Manning contract will choke the competitive life out of team, OL sucks, can't run the ball, wasting "our" time unless we win a SB. Elway has gone onto to doing basically everything he said couldn't happen and he's been a bitter ******* because the one ingredient he pines for was the last thing Elway wanted to build around.

As to your OP.

John Elway drafts Tebows replacement and spends the next three seasons building around him, I still don't doubt Elway in free agency and I don't think draft plans dramatically, resulting in much the same kind of roster.

Unfortunately, I thinks the stench from Tebowmania gets the best of whatever QB replaces Tebow, fans have a short leash and turn on him in a big way. Forget about Tebowfags, Broncos fans were all in on the thought of Tebow and we've been otherwise brutal on QB's anyway (we booed Manning off the field in what might have been his final game).

In spite of what Joel will tell you the Broncos were a 10-win talent team before Manning was signed, I think they hover around 10 wins without him. I don't think I'm being over dramatic when I say this but Manning saved the Broncos organization the second he signed with Denver, as ridiculous as it sounds the Broncos needed to sign a HoF QB and win SB's to justify the decision to move on from Tebow.

Honestly, I'm actually kinda with a lot of people that are sick of Manning, his pouting and the Godawful offense they run, but I have a vivid idea of what it'd have been like without him and THOROUGHLY appreciate everything he brought to the Denver Broncos. He can stay as long as he likes.

10 wins are nice but it does little to reverse the brain damage caused by Tebowmania.

Ravage!!!
01-17-2015, 02:15 PM
I think we would have still have drafted Oz and he would have challenged Tebow for starting job and won it.

Without Manning , Elway could not just drop Tebow. And everyone knew how high he was on Oz. Tebow would have only lasted the year. I do think we would not have signed ware. Kept signing of FA to younger players like Ward and Talib.

You know... I personally think Elway would have traded Tebow away when he did, no matter what. Couple reasons, 1) being that Elway knew he wasn't the kind of guy you can win with in the NFL...and 2) his stock would NEVER be higher to actually get a trade for him.. 3) having him here would just cause a mess with whomever you put ahead of him in the lineup. THey wouldn't get a chance with the Tebow crowd, and no one knows that 'extra' high pressure put onto certain QB jobs than Elway.

Simple Jaded
01-17-2015, 02:36 PM
Remember guys, Weeden went 22nd and their top choice went at 24 to the Stealers. Weeden isn't a slam dunk pick at QB.

Simple Jaded
01-17-2015, 02:43 PM
Let the Monster out Joel, open the gates and let your demons run.

:scottsturfvoice: feed your Monster, Joel, feed it!

vettesplus
01-17-2015, 02:50 PM
Speculating what might be can be educationally confirmed/refuted by time, but speculating what might have BEEN just causes arguments forever because it's impossible to ever know who's right. There's nothing "constructive" there: That's my whole objection. To borrow a great line, "what if Walter Camp had gone to Vassar?" We'd be discussing Denver soccer team.

I said my piece three years ago on the alternate reality where we don't sign Manning, and the reaction was so "constructive" it STILL gets me accused of "berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people." Even when I DON'T repeat my answer to a now-irrelevant question, everyone remembers and I STILL catch Hell for it.

DUDE, take a chill pill, this thread is all in fun. its great to see what others think what might of been. if you have nothing to ad to the op just sit down and shut up....thank you

Ravage!!!
01-17-2015, 02:51 PM
Remember guys, Weeden went 22nd and their top choice went at 24 to the Stealers. Weeden isn't a slam dunk pick at QB.

:confused:

MOtorboat
01-17-2015, 02:51 PM
Doesn't THAT set off major chains of events.

Denver is built more on the draft than free agency, for one. Brandon Stokely never comes back, and Wes Welker, Emmannuel Sanders and Jacob Tamme probably aren't Broncos. Ware, Ward and Talib probably don't come to Denver either. Vasquez might have, but of the major free agent signings, he's the only one I'd say would be a possibility without Manning.

I think Weeden or Osweiler is the quarterback. It was pretty clear that Tebow wasn't capable of playing quarterback at an NFL level and he would've been traded. I think someone like Matt Hasselbeck might have been on the team. I think Denver would have been looking for a quarterback before this season, as I'm not sure Weeden or Osweiler would lead this team to success after being thrown to the wolves. I think there would have been three higher draft choices, and maybe a little more homegrown talent starting this season than what was there.

Interesting question, because if you're going to factor in everything, then that means Manning likely goes to Tennessee and how different is the landscape of the AFC? Andrew Luck probably doesn't have the same success he's had because Manning is in his division, instead of the dumpster fire situations at quarterback of the other three teams.

If Manning goes to San Francisco that would've set off all sorts of crazy chain of events. Maybe Alex Smith or Kaepernick are Broncos, or Smith is a Titan.

vettesplus
01-17-2015, 02:55 PM
Doesn't THAT set off major chains of events.

Denver is built more on the draft than free agency, for one. Brandon Stokely never comes back, and Wes Welker, Emmannuel Sanders and Jacob Tamme probably aren't Broncos. Ware, Ward and Talib probably don't come to Denver either. Vasquez might have, but of the major free agent signings, he's the only one I'd say would be a possibility without Manning.

I think Weeden or Osweiler is the quarterback. It was pretty clear that Tebow wasn't capable of playing quarterback at an NFL level and he would've been traded. I think someone like Matt Hasselbeck might have been on the team. I think Denver would have been looking for a quarterback before this season, as I'm not sure Weeden or Osweiler would lead this team to success after being thrown to the wolves. I think there would have been three higher draft choices, and maybe a little more homegrown talent starting this season than what was there.

Interesting question, because if you're going to factor in everything, then that means Manning likely goes to Tennessee and how different is the landscape of the AFC? Andrew Luck probably doesn't have the same success he's had because Manning is in his division, instead of the dumpster fire situations at quarterback of the other three teams.

If Manning goes to San Francisco that would've set off all sorts of crazy chain of events. Maybe Alex Smith or Kaepernick are Broncos, or Smith is a Titan.


I would love to see Kaepernick as a Bronco!!!!!

Simple Jaded
01-17-2015, 02:56 PM
I think the 49ers traded up with Denver to draft Kaepernick, iirc, maybe he's on Denver's board without Manning. Ironic considering his biological mother lives in Denver.

Valar Morghulis
01-17-2015, 03:02 PM
I think teebs would have been retained - but also lost his place to a rookie.

I guess no logic can suggest that we would have taken anyone but Oz, given that we picked him in the second round.

I think losing Allen would still translate as a dip in our Defense - and we would end up hovering around the 8-8 mark, but no better than 10-6 in any of the three years.

I reckon we would still have been active in FA - but would not have Welker, Talib or Ware. I think we would still have went in on Vasquez, and Ward. Decker woudl still be here because we would have signed him on a team friendly contract because his production would be no where near where it was with Manning, same is true of DT.

Virgil Green would likely be demanding Jimmy Graham this year and JT would never have been heard of!

Obviously not being God - i can not confirm the accuracy of that alternate reality. But i know this - i much prefer the reality of the three years we have just had. No superbowl hurts - but what a great time to have been a broncos fan. With the exceptions of the Ravens game in 2012, the superbowl in 2013 and the last 5 games we played this year - every minute has been awesome.

Valar Morghulis
01-17-2015, 03:07 PM
Crazy to think we could have had Russell Wilson that year as well.

Poet
01-17-2015, 03:15 PM
Tebow takes the Broncos on a bizarre SB run where he only completes 200 passes and over half of those occur in the final two minutes of the game.

Simple Jaded
01-17-2015, 03:20 PM
That's another thing that can't be overstated, the huge benefit the Thomases and Decker got from 2-3 years working in this offense with a QB that demands that you prepare, run the right routes correctly and be where your supposed to be. They've come a long way.

God knows where they'd be.

MOtorboat
01-17-2015, 03:21 PM
Tebow takes the Broncos on a bizarre SB run where he only completes 200 passes and over half of those occur in the final two minutes of the game.

:akilismith:

7DnBrnc53
01-17-2015, 05:33 PM
I think we would have still have drafted Oz and he would have challenged Tebow for starting job and won it.

Without Manning , Elway could not just drop Tebow. And everyone knew how high he was on Oz. Tebow would have only lasted the year. I do think we would not have signed ware. Kept signing of FA to younger players like Ward and Talib.

I thought that we only drafted Oz because of Manning.

jhildebrand
01-18-2015, 12:03 AM
Osweiler could very well still be here without Manning. However, had Manning not come Elway may have used the picks that became Wolfe and Os differently for another QB. Let's also remember we had a higher original pick that year IIRC. I think that was the pick TB traded for to draft Martin.

Hawgdriver
01-18-2015, 01:08 AM
Lol, thats probably the angriest ive seen Dave on here. haha.

I get it. Just when I thought I was warming up to debs, she upped the ante.

Hawgdriver
01-18-2015, 01:10 AM
brilliant stroke, debs.

MOtorboat
01-18-2015, 01:21 AM
I get it. Just when I thought I was warming up to debs, she upped the ante.

It was his Best Post Evah!!!

GEM
01-18-2015, 01:47 AM
Obviously, but I find this more fun than using big words , berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people with insanely long and banal posts.

Don't have anything constructive to add - don't post in that thread you ******* milquetoast.

Blocked.

Fatality!

Simple Jaded
01-18-2015, 03:43 AM
Osweiler could very well still be here without Manning. However, had Manning not come Elway may have used the picks that became Wolfe and Os differently for another QB. Let's also remember we had a higher original pick that year IIRC. I think that was the pick TB traded for to draft Martin.

I think they trade back twice before taking Wolfe, they had the 25th, moved to 31 and then out of round one altogether.

sneakers
01-18-2015, 07:16 AM
TEBOW TIME!

Oh how it would have been fun. Fox would have the team he always wanted, running the ball and defense.

sneakers
01-18-2015, 07:17 AM
I think we should get Harry Turtledove to write an Alternate History novel about this subject.

Valar Morghulis
01-18-2015, 07:21 AM
Or Damechek to do an N if L

ShaneFalco
01-18-2015, 07:31 AM
Tebow would have been Super Bowl MVP for 3 years straight:cool:

Jaded, Ravage, and mo would have been arrested for charging the field to give Tebow a giant hug.

Northman
01-18-2015, 07:53 AM
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/tim.tebow.cut.memes.1.jpg

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 08:07 AM
Not being God, I can't know what might've been, and speculating now is as dangerous as it was then, yet far more pointless.

Obviously, but I find this more fun than using big words , berating the team I allegedly support and generally trolling the forum to annoy people with insanely long and banal posts.

Don't have anything constructive to add - don't post in that thread you ******* milquetoast.

Blocked.


Damn! Lol


Im hella hungover and that made my night.

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 08:08 AM
What is a milquetoast??? Lol

Valar Morghulis
01-18-2015, 08:29 AM
What is a milquetoast??? Lol

A milquetoast is a weak willed pushover but it has been used so much on here recently I thought I would chuck it in.

Has to be said though, that post earned me more mhs than any other

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:25 AM
I dont know Joel...have you tried to be less douchebagery??? I appreciate the private cps and all but damn dude sometimes you like to stir shit up! You're not making any friends here by doing that.

ShaneFalco
01-18-2015, 09:27 AM
Tebow would have been Super Bowl MVP for 3 years straight:cool:

Jaded, Ravage, and mo would have been arrested for charging the field to give Tebow a giant hug.

You guys must all agree with me. I am so proud.

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:29 AM
******* milquetoast!! Lololol

Im still shit faced. Have to drive an hour home and ive already waited 6 hours. Damn fireball whiskey!!!

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:33 AM
Need to throw up but cant. Damn this blows.

Still spiinin with a royal headavke

ShaneFalco
01-18-2015, 09:34 AM
why you drinkin and drivin bro?

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:41 AM
Not bro..sittin in front of my buddies house wirh my seatbelt on

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:42 AM
Wearin this shit off

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:43 AM
I got to get home

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:44 AM
If i get a ticket ill get fired from my job. Its FRA n they dont play.

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:45 AM
My buddies wife keeps checkin on me. Kinda weird and i feel uncomfortable now

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 09:50 AM
Shit



Shit



Shit


Times tickin away


I swear if i could just throw up id be good

ShaneFalco
01-18-2015, 09:54 AM
lol.

Joel
01-18-2015, 10:51 AM
Not bro..sittin in front of my buddies house wirh my seatbelt on
Be careful: They can (and will) still bust you for DUI even sitting there with the engine off; a cop once told one of my relatives "if the key's in the ignition, you're driving" and they busted Willie Nelson when he was asleep in the BACK SEAT. Anyway, hope you get home safely and without incident.

Simple Jaded
01-18-2015, 12:36 PM
Tebow would have been Super Bowl MVP for 3 years straight:cool:

Jaded, Ravage, and mo would have been arrested for charging the field to give Tebow a giant hug.

Be kinda difficult to hug Tebow with you hugging his nuts.

Simple Jaded
01-18-2015, 12:43 PM
Hey Den, how bout a nice greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ashtray?

TXBRONC
01-18-2015, 01:49 PM
Hey Den, how bout a nice greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ashtray?

I'm sure he appreciates your effort to help him spew. :lol:

DenBronx
01-18-2015, 06:24 PM
Hey Den, how bout a nice greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ashtray?

I hate you. Lol

Still feel like shit with a wicked headache but never ended up hurling.

TXBRONC
01-18-2015, 06:34 PM
I hate you. Lol

Still feel like shit with a wicked headache but never ended up hurling.

I'm guessing you finally made it back home?

Joel
01-18-2015, 07:41 PM
I'm guessing you finally made it back home?
Either that or County has wifi now. :tongue:

sneakers
01-19-2015, 05:17 PM
I dont know Joel...have you tried to be less douchebagery??? I appreciate the private cps and all but damn dude sometimes you like to stir shit up! You're not making any friends here by doing that.

Joel used to troll softly, and now I don't know anymore

Joel
01-19-2015, 05:27 PM
Joel used to troll softly, and now I don't know anymore
I'm a BIT pissed at how little we've done with so much more than EVERYONE the last three years; there's a guy in Dove Valley who feels the same way; difference is ONE of us saw it coming three years ago. ;)

weazel
01-19-2015, 05:32 PM
Would Elway have ridden Tebow in 2012?

Would he have drafted a different qb?

Would we be divisional champs 4 years running?

Who would we likely have made a play for instead?

Thoughts?

nice thread, foreigner

Valar Morghulis
01-19-2015, 05:37 PM
nice thread, foreigner

thanks?

sneakers
01-19-2015, 06:02 PM
It is so weird seeing Fox as the coach of the bears

weazel
01-19-2015, 06:20 PM
It is so weird seeing Fox as the coach of the bears

Cutler is going to love those 5 to 10 yard bombs!

Joel
01-19-2015, 06:33 PM
Cutler is going to love those 5 to 10 yard bombs!
Quitter coach for a quitter team; wonder if they'll prorate season tickets since the fans will be the only ones in the stadium the last half of each year.

Lancane
01-19-2015, 06:58 PM
It is so weird seeing Fox as the coach of the bears

How so? We had a coaching staff from the Head Coach on down all with their sights on other opportunities and allowed **** production on the field. Why? Because one was more concerned where he might be a Head Coach, another who wanted to be only a Raider and then Fox who orchestrated probably the closest thing I've seen to tampering because he was butt-hurt. Who cares that Elway called them out, I would have. Hell, Brian Dawkins called them out on Twitter. Odd? No. I am relieved, but I do feel sorry for Chicago because they are a storied franchise known for tough defenses and smashmouth football, the fans will be calling out the coach often when he doesn't live up to the hype.

7DnBrnc53
01-20-2015, 12:10 AM
I'm a BIT pissed at how little we've done with so much more than EVERYONE the last three years; there's a guy in Dove Valley who feels the same way; difference is ONE of us saw it coming three years ago. ;)

I hear ya. I was agitated, too. The Seahawks weren't 43-8 better than us, if at all. We gave the Colts the game just like the Chiefs did last year in the playoffs. And, Denver couldn't beat NE at least once in Foxboro? They aren't that great of a team. I have been sick of them since 03-04.


Quitter coach for a quitter team; wonder if they'll prorate season tickets since the fans will be the only ones in the stadium the last half of each year.

Makes me want to see the Broncos kick Chicago's and Oakland's (along with NE's) rear ends this upcoming season. Their new coaches cost us at least one SB win, and I want them to pay.

SM19
01-20-2015, 12:56 AM
Random-ass chance has made fools of better teams. As much as the Broncos underperformed the quality of their roster, sometimes that shit just happens, and I'm glad they had the run they did. They weren't going to have it without Manning.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2015, 01:21 AM
I'm a BIT pissed at how little we've done with so much more than EVERYONE the last three years; there's a guy in Dove Valley who feels the same way; difference is ONE of us saw it coming three years ago. ;)

:rolleyes:

You've been wrong about damn near everything for years, what exactly did you see coming?

Poet
01-20-2015, 01:24 AM
Saying you were right because your team didn't the SB for three years is insane. Like we were here for many of your posts...they were not enlightening.

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 01:41 AM
Saying you were right because your team didn't the SB for three years is insane. Like we were here for many of your posts...they were not enlightening.

Joel is vindicated!

I absolutely hate how he makes me want to root against Kubiak. He is so wrong about everything, that the last thing I want to happen is something that he wants to happen.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2015, 01:44 AM
Saying you were right because your team didn't the SB for three years is insane. Like we were here for many of your posts...they were not enlightening.

King I predict you will not win the lottery.

Btw, I'm wrong a lot so start planning early retirement.

SM19
01-20-2015, 02:10 AM
Saying you were right because your team didn't the SB for three years is insane. Like we were here for many of your posts...they were not enlightening.

Heh, right? You can bet against any team winning even one Super Bowl in a three-year period, and you'll probably come out ahead.

jhildebrand
01-20-2015, 12:28 PM
Cutler is going to love those 5 to 10 yard bombs!

I believe they call them bubble screens. :lol:

jhildebrand
01-20-2015, 12:32 PM
r and then Fox who orchestrated probably the closest thing I've seen to tampering

That is what I don't get. :noidea: It is the next worst kept secret (after the Broncos wanting Kubiak) that Fox had his buddy Jay release that. What team in the NFL looks at him after that as a guy who can lead their organization after he showed just how unloyal he can be to his current team with a legitimate shot/path to the Super Bowl? :confused: When things go wrong in Chicago I guess we can all tell them "He is who we thought is! AND YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT!"

Lancane
01-20-2015, 12:41 PM
That is what I don't get. :noidea: It is the next worst kept secret (after the Broncos wanting Kubiak) that Fox had his buddy Jay release that. What team in the NFL looks at him after that as a guy who can lead their organization after he showed just how unloyal he can be to his current team with a legitimate shot/path to the Super Bowl? :confused: When things go wrong in Chicago I guess we can all tell them "He is who we thought is! AND YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT!"

Because after the fact Jay Glazier went on a 'Rah-Rah' campaign where he put the blame on no one's shoulders saying both Elway and Fox are likeable men that they just did not agree on some things and that was significant and so on. And Pace is buddies with Fox's buddy Sean Payton and Ernie Accorsi who was an advisor for Chicago is also an old friend of Fox's...I don't believe for a minute that Chicago did not know he was their choice, even before the split.

Joel
01-20-2015, 01:10 PM
Saying you were right because your team didn't the SB for three years is insane. Like we were here for many of your posts...they were not enlightening.
You've been here, but that's all you recall? A bit intellectually dishonest, no? Didn't I ALSO say:

1) Manning had two or MAYBE three years before he'd retire or we'd wish he had; Heckle and Jeckle over there sneered that he'd finish a contract ending weeks before he turns 41: Wanna double down, fellas?

2) A team that needed the script of "Rudy" to manage .500 didn't have time to build a championship rosters support—nor a LINE to keep the Bionic QB healthy—before his window closed.

3) That that would force us to Irsays script demanding he singlehandedly win playoff games like our one-and-done years or the SB, till his 2012 cheerleaders here revived the "washed up choker" charge now?

4) That TRYING to avoid that with lots of pricey FA studs would blow up our cap so we couldn't keep younger longterm lynchpins like Doom, Decker, Moreno and the Thomases? I can't stop folks believing PFMs $20 million ANNUAL cap hit prevented Doom re-signing and required franchise tagging Clady, but their math doesn't check.

I said in 2012 all that would happen, now it all has and, as you say, you were here for and are therefore aware of all of it, so pretending otherwise dishonestly insults both our intellects.


Joel is vindicated!

I absolutely hate how he makes me want to root against Kubiak. He is so wrong about everything, that the last thing I want to happen is something that he wants to happen.
Don't forget to surrender your fancard on your way out the door, Comrade Loyalty Officer. Rooting against ones own team and coach just for the sake of a personal grudge against another fan practically defines pettiness. Aren't you a little old to act like this is a 7th grade girls room?


You've been wrong about damn near everything for years, what exactly did you see coming?
If I'm always wrong about everything, why do you keep borrowing my line about DT being a better TE than Orange Julius, or regurgitate all the points I JUST MADE about our front sevens 3-4 suitability, as if I hadn't said all the same things half a dozen posts earlier? You can't even admit I'm right when you're riding my coattails; that's just sad, man. :(

Joel
01-20-2015, 01:16 PM
Random-ass chance has made fools of better teams. As much as the Broncos underperformed the quality of their roster, sometimes that shit just happens, and I'm glad they had the run they did. They weren't going to have it without Manning.
There was nothing random about it: The team consistently and severely underperformed three STRAIGHT years, despite by far the leagues most talented roster the last two. We're not talking about missing a trip to the SB by no more than a goal line QB sneak: We were one-and-done at home and off a bye to heal and prepare for GROSSLY inferior teams just to get there, and the ONE time we did reach a SB, we got blown out LITERALLY FROM KICKOFF TO GUN. I mean, the last time we were in that game was right before the coin toss, which is pathetic for the greatest passing attack in history.

Random chance is how Trindon Hollidays playoff-record TD returns kept us in our only 2012 playoff game. Blowing it along with this years, the last SB and virtually every big non-divisional game of each season: No one but the Broncos themselves did that to them. Hence that whole coaching staff's rightly out of a job.

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 01:19 PM
Yes, repeatedly being one of the best teams in the league was so excruciating.

How ******* stupid is that shit?

Joel
01-20-2015, 01:29 PM
There's no such thing as "ONE of the best," because it's superlative: You're either the best, or not. If that's still unclear after the debacle of the last three years, ask Elway, Ellis or PFM to explain it.

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 01:31 PM
There's no such thing as "ONE of the best," because it's superlative: You're either the best, or not. If that's still unclear after the debacle of the last three years, ask Elway, Ellis or PFM to explain it.

Lol. Yes, it was a debacle. I hate finishing 4-12 every season.

BroncoNut
01-20-2015, 01:34 PM
what does the F in PFM stand for? Filmore? Fred? Fonzy?

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 01:36 PM
I wonder if Joel is going to be Ricky Bobby when Kubiak doesn't win a Super Bowl next year?

Poet
01-20-2015, 01:37 PM
He'll move the goalposts and accuse others of doing the same thing.

Slick
01-20-2015, 01:58 PM
Joel is vindicated!

I absolutely hate how he makes me want to root against Kubiak. He is so wrong about everything, that the last thing I want to happen is something that he wants to happen.

WTF Mo? This is insanity.

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 02:04 PM
WTF Mo? This is insanity.

Except it's not. I didn't say I won't be rooting for Denver.

My bar is that winning a division title and a being in the conversation, I.e., the playoffs, is a satisfying season. More than that is a great season. My bar doesn't move, and I will be deeply satisfied with a fifth AFC West title. I can't say the same for someone who consistently moves the bar.

Slick
01-20-2015, 03:32 PM
Except it's not. I didn't say I won't be rooting for Denver.

My bar is that winning a division title and a being in the conversation, I.e., the playoffs, is a satisfying season. More than that is a great season. My bar doesn't move, and I will be deeply satisfied with a fifth AFC West title. I can't say the same for someone who consistently moves the bar.

The fact that you seem care so much about what Joel posts is insanity. The rest of your post is sound thinking.

MOtorboat
01-20-2015, 07:03 PM
Don't misquote me.

Joel
01-20-2015, 07:05 PM
I wonder if Joel is going to be Ricky Bobby when Kubiak doesn't win a Super Bowl next year?
NEXT year? Maybe jumping the gun a BIT. Mr. Bowlen and Elway both clearly agree on the importance of giving new coaches time to clean up messes that got their predecessors fired, a principle I fully support even if I disagreed with their choices of post-Shanny waste management artisans until now. They're so committed to it they had more patience than I with both McDumbass and Fox (then again, I didn't have to worry about how to find a new coach.)

Anything less than a championship's failure, yes, but if you stood by Fox FOUR SEASONS before bailing when Elway did, Kubiak is entitled to more than ONE, especially since he won't have a first ballot HoFer at QB three of the four years he's under contract unless Elway goes out and finds him another one. If we're having this conversation in 3-4 years with no SBs in sight, I'll freely if sadly admit my error. Because admitting error when it's proven is what adults do, however much they may dislike the person who proved it.

MileHighCrew
01-20-2015, 07:06 PM
if you all could cut out the personal stuff, there have been some great points to debate in here.

MOtorboat
01-21-2015, 04:56 AM
NEXT year? Maybe jumping the gun a BIT. Mr. Bowlen and Elway both clearly agree on the importance of giving new coaches time to clean up messes that got their predecessors fired, a principle I fully support even if I disagreed with their choices of post-Shanny waste management artisans until now. They're so committed to it they had more patience than I with both McDumbass and Fox (then again, I didn't have to worry about how to find a new coach.)

Anything less than a championship's failure, yes, but if you stood by Fox FOUR SEASONS before bailing when Elway did, Kubiak is entitled to more than ONE, especially since he won't have a first ballot HoFer at QB three of the four years he's under contract unless Elway goes out and finds him another one. If we're having this conversation in 3-4 years with no SBs in sight, I'll freely if sadly admit my error. Because admitting error when it's proven is what adults do, however much they may dislike the person who proved it.

Already setting up the back track. Yes, adults admit when they are wrong. Try it sometime.

I stood by Fox because he continued to win games as I will stand by Kubiak, even more so than I did Fox, because he's a Bronco. Will you? Because you didn't even give Fox and Manning a single game before becoming a insufferable troll for three ******* seasons. My guess is that you'll move the bar where you see fit as you always do. In this case, you're going to hypocrite it up and be overly optimistic.

Meanwhile, I'll still hold the same standards I always have. Consistency. Try it some time.

Joel
01-21-2015, 10:10 AM
Already setting up the back track. Yes, adults admit when they are wrong. Try it sometime.
Try three posts up; I didn't MHS that just because I think you're such a swell guy. ;) I didn't backtrack on anything: If Kubiak doesn't get us to a championship, that's as much failure as it would be for anyone else—but he and we deserve at least as many tries without PFM as Fox had with him.


I stood by Fox because he continued to win games as I will stand by Kubiak, even more so than I did Fox, because he's a Bronco. Will you? Because you didn't even give Fox and Manning a single game before becoming a insufferable troll for three ******* seasons. My guess is that you'll move the bar where you see fit as you always do. In this case, you're going to hypocrite it up and be overly optimistic.
For what it's worth, I said nothing short of a Conference Championship game was acceptable, and we DID reach and even win one with Manning, so I can't complain about him. Likewise, I was amazed how close Elway DID get to that championship support roster overnight, despite the critically and fatally adding so little to the line it not only didn't improve, but didn't even keep PACE through Kupers retirement and Beadles leaving in FA (making the offensive foundation such a low priority is especially frustrating since Elway knows as well as anyone the difference his championship lines made.)

My beef's 100% Fox having (at least) two first ballot HoFers and a former DRoY THREE SOLID YEARS, Elway adding half a dozen Pro Bowlers—yet still not winning the SB all those guys got us to DESPITE Fox.


Meanwhile, I'll still hold the same standards I always have. Consistency. Try it some time.
I love consistency as long as it's positive, but two one-and-dones in three years, with a Super Blowout in between, is the wrong kind of consistency. This isn't Detroit or Cleveland, where poeople are not just satisfied but thrilled to merely make the playoffs whether they WIN ANY GAMES there or not. Elway set a higher standard in Denver, and is maintaining a higher standard—the highest—in Denver. Maybe some are satisfied with four straight "not too shabby" division titles with one-and-done playoff outings, but it's not good enough for Elway, for which I commend him.

SM19
01-21-2015, 02:26 PM
There was nothing random about it: The team consistently and severely underperformed three STRAIGHT years, despite by far the leagues most talented roster the last two. We're not talking about missing a trip to the SB by no more than a goal line QB sneak: We were one-and-done at home and off a bye to heal and prepare for GROSSLY inferior teams just to get there, and the ONE time we did reach a SB, we got blown out LITERALLY FROM KICKOFF TO GUN. I mean, the last time we were in that game was right before the coin toss, which is pathetic for the greatest passing attack in history.

Random chance is how Trindon Hollidays playoff-record TD returns kept us in our only 2012 playoff game.

You've got a much narrower view of the possible range of chance outcomes in any football game than is merited by the evidence.


Blowing it along with this years, the last SB and virtually every big non-divisional game of each season

And this, right here? Just naked selection bias.

Joel
01-21-2015, 04:08 PM
You've got a much narrower view of the possible range of chance outcomes in any football game than is merited by the evidence.
Skill, diligence and focus increasingly minimize lucks role; that's among their chief advantages, since each is as reliable as luck isn't. There was talk of consistency before; the Broncos were certainly consistent the last three years with the most talented roster since perhaps the '94 Cowboys, but our postseasons were consistently BAD, and we had too much talent too long to crap out that many times in a row.


And this, right here? Just naked selection bias.
How so? We've got a losing record in playoff games with Manning and Fox, are 1-5 vs. NE (and only 1-1 at home,) 1-2 vs. Indy (and again only 1-1 at home) 0-2 vs. Seattle and even blew home playoff fresh off a bye against a wildcard team we destroyed in their house barely a month earlier. The only undeniably big games we've won were last years against KC, whom everyone here insisted was grossly overrated. We won more big games with Tebow than PFM, for Petes sake; that ought to make clear he couldn't singlehandedly salvage the team and we lacked the time and money to get him enough help.

That's not even counting losses to good 2012 Texans and Falcons teams, or this years typically mediocre Bengals. If noting a DOZEN big games lost is selection bias, that means there must be nearly as many or more big games we won: Where are they? Beating an SF team in mid-collapse? The Steelers and Ravens years they didn't make the playoffs? In 2012 we only beat TWO teams with winning records—one of which paid us back in the postseason by marching to a championship over our broken dreams. Last year we only beat four losing teams: The default NFCE Champ Eagles, SD and KC twice.

Where are all the big games we won with one of the all-time great rosters? We beat up a bunch of teams nearly everyone beat up, but lost nearly every game that really mattered. That's good enough to get elected to a bowl game, but not to win a Super Bowl.

Simple Jaded
01-21-2015, 04:34 PM
what does the F in PFM stand for? Filmore? Fred? Fonzy?

Fivehead.

Joel
01-21-2015, 04:40 PM
Fivehead.
Gotta admit, that one took me a sec; I blame infant-induced insomnia/narcolepzzzz....

Simple Jaded
01-21-2015, 04:47 PM
You've been here, but that's all you recall? A bit intellectually dishonest, no? Didn't I ALSO say:

1) Manning had two or MAYBE three years before he'd retire or we'd wish he had; Heckle and Jeckle over there sneered that he'd finish a contract ending weeks before he turns 41: Wanna double down, fellas?

2) A team that needed the script of "Rudy" to manage .500 didn't have time to build a championship rosters support—nor a LINE to keep the Bionic QB healthy—before his window closed.

3) That that would force us to Irsays script demanding he singlehandedly win playoff games like our one-and-done years or the SB, till his 2012 cheerleaders here revived the "washed up choker" charge now?

4) That TRYING to avoid that with lots of pricey FA studs would blow up our cap so we couldn't keep younger longterm lynchpins like Doom, Decker, Moreno and the Thomases? I can't stop folks believing PFMs $20 million ANNUAL cap hit prevented Doom re-signing and required franchise tagging Clady, but their math doesn't check.

I said in 2012 all that would happen, now it all has and, as you say, you were here for and are therefore aware of all of it, so pretending otherwise dishonestly insults both our intellects.


Don't forget to surrender your fancard on your way out the door, Comrade Loyalty Officer. Rooting against ones own team and coach just for the sake of a personal grudge against another fan practically defines pettiness. Aren't you a little old to act like this is a 7th grade girls room?


If I'm always wrong about everything, why do you keep borrowing my line about DT being a better TE than Orange Julius, or regurgitate all the points I JUST MADE about our front sevens 3-4 suitability, as if I hadn't said all the same things half a dozen posts earlier? You can't even admit I'm right when you're riding my coattails; that's just sad, man. :(

Your line? You arrogant ****, your taking credit for other people's opinions now?

Here's the truth, buy it or stick it, you're the first person I've ever put on Ignore and you've been on ignore for half the season, I dont even read your War and Peace sized posts when you're not on iggy. I don't need anybody's 2-cents to form my own opinion, I put in as much effort as anyone to know what I'm talking about and the last opinion I'd be cut and pasteing would be those from a completely brain damaged Tebowfag. When I do agree with you it causes me to consider the fact that I might have it wrong.

Every time I take you off ignore you make me regret it.

Joel
01-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Your line? You arrogant ****, your taking credit for other people's opinions now?

Here's the truth, buy it or stick it, you're the first person I've ever put on Ignore and you've been on ignore for half the season, I dont even read your War and Peace sized posts when you're not on iggy. I don't need anybody's 2-cents to form my own opinion, I put in as much effort as anyone to know what I'm talking about and the last opinion I'd be cut and pasteing would be those from a completely brain damaged Tebowfag. When I do agree with you it causes me to consider the fact that I might have it wrong.

Every time I take you off ignore you make me regret it.
So you just coincidentally, ignorantly and repeatedly started making the exact comparison I'd been making for months? I bet MO remembers it well enough, considering how many times I threw out there when he kept insisting TEs don't have to block or run clean routes if they're great WRs.

You didn't have me on ignore when responding to my posts in this thread and elsewhere, so if you didn't see me go through how Ware and Miller are prototypical 3-4 OLBs who've spent a lot of time playing there, Knighton's a classic 3-4 NT, Wolfe and Jackson have the size, speed, run stuffing and pass rushing ability for ideal 3-4 DEs and Trevathan and Marshall have the great coverage skills demanded of 3-4 ILBs who don't need to be huge, well, you sure did a fine job of saying ALL THE EXACT SAME THINGS HALF A DOZEN POSTS AFTER ME.

Arrogant, nothing; check the time and date stamps. Whether you intentionally echoed my comments or not, you DID echo them, because you said the same thing as me after me, so if I'm always wrong about everything, agreeing with my statements (with or without acknowledging it IS agreement) makes you...?

One thing's for sure: For a guy who puts me and leaves me on ignore, you sure are johnny-on-the spot constantly saying I'm wrong about everything, then repeating what I just said, as if a novel discovery.

Simple Jaded
01-21-2015, 07:23 PM
So you just coincidentally, ignorantly and repeatedly started making the exact comparison I'd been making for months? I bet MO remembers it well enough, considering how many times I threw out there when he kept insisting TEs don't have to block or run clean routes if they're great WRs.

You didn't have me on ignore when responding to my posts in this thread and elsewhere, so if you didn't see me go through how Ware and Miller are prototypical 3-4 OLBs who've spent a lot of time playing there, Knighton's a classic 3-4 NT, Wolfe and Jackson have the size, speed, run stuffing and pass rushing ability for ideal 3-4 DEs and Trevathan and Marshall have the great coverage skills demanded of 3-4 ILBs who don't need to be huge, well, you sure did a fine job of saying ALL THE EXACT SAME THINGS HALF A DOZEN POSTS AFTER ME.

Arrogant, nothing; check the time and date stamps. Whether you intentionally echoed my comments or not, you DID echo them, because you said the same thing as me after me, so if I'm always wrong about everything, agreeing with my statements (with or without acknowledging it IS agreement) makes you...?

Un****ingbelievable. Listen wingnut, just because someone has the same, or even just similar, opinion as you it doesn't mean they're plagiarizing your superior intellect. Get over yourself homeboy.

I simply cannot emphasize this enough, you are the single worst person I could think of to copy if I have any intention of sounding like I have any clue of what I'm talking about. If I don't know enough to form my own opinion I don't voice my opinion, this is why I stay out of the politics forum.

I'll be honest, this is by far the most insulting thing somebody has said to me in a long while, because you're a complete idiot.

Btw, go thru my post history and you'll find that I posted about going to a 3-4 in response to the notion of bringing in Rex Ryan as DC. I know what a 3-4 defense entails, I have for decades, no thanks to you.Check those time stamps.

Joel
01-21-2015, 07:54 PM
Un****ingbelievable. Listen wingnut, just because someone has the same, or even just similar, opinion as you it doesn't mean they're plagiarizing your superior intellect. Get over yourself homeboy.
That's fine, but it doesn't change the logic that if I'm always wrong on everything and you say the same thing I just said you MUST be every bit as wrong about it. Either that or, y'know, I'm not as uniformly delusional as alleged. Guess it's a question of which of your statements was wrong, since they're mutually exclusive.


I simply cannot emphasize this enough, you are the single worst person I could think of to copy if I have any intention of sounding like I have any clue of what I'm talking about. If I don't know enough to form my own opinion I don't voice my opinion, this is why I stay out of the politics forum.

I'll be honest, this is by far the most insulting thing somebody has said to me in a long while, because you're a complete idiot.
Dunno what to tell ya: It happened, and that's documented fact however either of us feels about it. The comments were originally mine (and in the case of "DT's not just a better WR than JT, he's a better TE" repeateadly so,) but didn't become a point of verbatim agreement until you LATER said the same. No one put a gun to your head and made you say the same thing


Btw, go thru my post history and you'll find that I posted about going to a 3-4 in response to the notion of bringing in Rex Ryan as DC. I know what a 3-4 defense entails, I have for decades, no thanks to you.Check those time stamps.
Lots of people have talked about it for years; difference we didn't have the personnel before, but now our front seven's ideal for it, at least if we re-sign Knighton. Here's the thing though: Even if you repeatedly said it before I ever thought of it, we DO agree on it, just as on Orange Julius, just as on Beadles (if not Hamilton nor Franklin) so either 1) I'm not always wrong about everything or 2) you're wrong about the (at least) three things on which we agree. That's just not possible though, is it?

Because heaven forbid there be a CIVIL DISCUSSION or EXCHANGE OF IDEAS: Competitive Posting is a brutal bloodsport; in the end, there can be only one, and if some slut's wearing the same color scrunchie RIP THAT SKANKS HAIR OFF HER! No biggy: Just try to keep it at "Mean Girls" level intensity; if it escalates to "Heathers" there's a problem.... ;)

Joel
01-21-2015, 08:21 PM
Oh, and be careful with "put[ting] in as much effort as anyone to know what I'm talking about" and "sounding like I have any clue of what I'm talking about:" Speak in anything but grunts and lots of people think it's putting on airs and talking down to them. Dunno WHY expecting people to know things long, widely and well known is condescending, but I'm often told it is. It's a good reason to just put in that effort to know what one's talking about, and let other worry about how it SOUNDS.

Especially those who insist it sounds like a defence of a guy who hasn't even PLAYED since 2011; I also dunno why you keep bringing him up like the world revolves around him.

Simple Jaded
01-21-2015, 08:32 PM
Wow, Joel you are truly full of yourself, I've been on MB's for years and I can't remember anybody ever taking credit for another persons opinion simply because they have the same opinion.

Seriously, if you were looking for a mic drop insult you found it.

Btw, I'm wrong all the time so it makes sense that we have the same opinion, considering you're damn near wrong about everything.

Lancane
01-21-2015, 08:39 PM
Sheesh you two, can't we all just get along! Come on, let's go sing Kumbaya.

Simple Jaded
01-21-2015, 09:10 PM
Sheesh you two, can't we all just get along! Come on, let's go sing Kumbaya.

Fine, but I'd suggest you let Joel pick the campfire song, according to him there are 2 kinds of opinions, wrong opinions and opinions somebody stole from him. I'm not sure where he stands on kumbaya so I don't know what to think.

Joel
01-21-2015, 09:37 PM
Wow, Joel you are truly full of yourself, I've been on MB's for years and I can't remember anybody ever taking credit for another persons opinion simply because they have the same opinion.

Seriously, if you were looking for a mic drop insult you found it.

Btw, I'm wrong all the time so it makes sense that we have the same opinion, considering you're damn near wrong about everything.
You just cussed me out and called me "a completely brain damaged Tebowfag;" who insulted whom? Who violated the CoC? I'm not looking for a mic drop nor any other kind of insult, just stating my impressions from "put[ting] in as much effort as anyone to know what I'm talking about," but when folks don't simply disagree but insultingly and abusively because they have a personal grudge against a long gone former player, I'll defend my case with as much VIGOR as anyone. Not because I think I'm so much smarter than everyone else, but because I DO make an effort and flinging poo's not a rebuttal.

Cugel
01-26-2015, 12:11 PM
Initially i thought that Elway might go with another year with Teebs. However, recent articles suggest that Elway was never looking at Tebow as a long term plan so i think we would of been drafting a QB and probably signing another vet of some kind to either let the young guy sit behind him or back the the rookie up. Maybe a little of both. The problem is you really cant say how we would of done, i dont think we would of won or even made the SB but considering we went 8-8 with Tebow i seriously doubt we would of done much worse than that the following years. Im guessing we would probably be in that 8-10 win range with some early playoff exits as the team gained experience, etc. Just depends on what moves Elway and company would of made, would they have traded to move up for a QB? Would they have traded back to stockpile? Hard to say because getting Manning changed the picture a lot for us.

Basically this. I remember that video of Elway standing there right next to Tebow watching his throwing motion with a bemused expression on his face. He made the decision to get rid of Tebow BEFORE he got Peyton Manning. It was just made a lot easier to justify to the fans when they landed Peyton.

He would have been totally ripped by all the Teboniacs for getting rid of their Christian Hero; remember that they were hating on Elway (saying that he got rid of Tebow because he was jealous of Tebow breaking all his Super Bowl records!) and saying that Manning was washed up and that Tebow would be a super-star in the NFL.

They were shouted down by the sane fans of course, but they were all waiting their chance to say "I told you so!" if Manning failed and if Tebow hadn't totally washed out of the league as a complete bust. In fact there was a letter to the Denver Post saying that Manning's recent failure in the playoffs proved the Broncos should "bring back Tim Tebow!"

Idiots never forget and they never learn.

But Elway has never shown that he cares a great deal what the fans think of his decisions. He learned that lesson as a QB when fans and the media were saying that he was a failure because he had lost all those Super Bowls. He could have handled the heat for a couple of years while Timmy failed in NY.

But, starting Brock Osweiler in 2012 would have been a disaster so they would have needed to bring in a veteran QB - who probably would NOT have won the division, so there would have been intense fan warfare between the Teboniacs and the rational fans for a while - until Tebow's obvious unfitness proved itself and he was cut from the Jets and failed in NE.

And the Tebowites would have had a counter-argument if Osweiler failed as a starter in 2013 and 2014 -- that Elway's chosen QB for which he ran Tebow out of town was a bust too.

One thing is almost certain - the Broncos would never have gotten to a Super Bowl in Brock Osweiler's 2nd season, nor would they have won 4 straight AFC West Titles.

Simple Jaded
01-27-2015, 02:44 AM
It's sad that they had to justify getting rid of Tebow at all.

7DnBrnc53
01-27-2015, 05:26 AM
It's sad that they had to justify getting rid of Tebow at all.

Well, you know, that's the power of the hype machine. And, that season, nobody seemed to power that machine more than a Mr. Skip Bayless.

ShaneFalco
01-27-2015, 06:16 AM
or winning a playoff game and throwing for 313 yards and the game winning td giving Denver its first playoffs in 8 years....

I know its hard for some people to get their heads around, but alot of people in Denver still like Tebow and would have liked to keep him on the roster to see him develop till Manning retired.

Hawgdriver
01-27-2015, 11:08 AM
or winning a playoff game and throwing for 313 yards and the game winning td giving Denver its first playoffs in 8 years....

I know its hard for some people to get their heads around, but alot of people in Denver still like Tebow and would have liked to keep him on the roster to see him develop till Manning retired.

Some good times, for sure. But I remember the 55-7 or whatever loss to the Pats the game after more than St. Tebow's miracles. They were pretty cool though, I got excited like everyone else. Couldn't ignore the cold water though.

Valar Morghulis
01-27-2015, 11:42 AM
Some good times, for sure. But I remember the 55-7 or whatever loss to the Pats the game after more than St. Tebow's miracles. They were pretty cool though, I got excited like everyone else. Couldn't ignore the cold water though.

Yup. I loved Tebow time.

But the games against buffalo, Seattle, kansas and 3 quarters against the jets and bears told me he was not a qb - but he was still a great competitor and leader on the field.

Shame about the sex scandal that is bound to come out in a few years - I just hope it involves hookers not children.

underrated29
01-27-2015, 12:48 PM
or winning a playoff game and throwing for 313 yards and the game winning td giving Denver its first playoffs in 8 years....

I know its hard for some people to get their heads around, but alot of people in Denver still like Tebow and would have liked to keep him on the roster to see him develop till Manning retired.




I am one of them. I would have loved to have tebow stay and work behind Peyton and to an extent Elway. Not sure Tebow could have done it or not but the guy was damn near unstoppable in the redzone. Who knows, with 3 years of polishing behind peyton he may just have turned into a russell wilson. We will never know now. But I would have liked that.

Lancane
01-27-2015, 01:13 PM
Everyone I know who has worked with Tebow has stated the same, that no matter who has coached him or tried to fix his release and accuracy they simply can not do it - in fact two of the most respected scouts I know have said that his mechanics have literally gotten worse despite Tebow seeking out the best in the business to fix it. Coach Mazzone who helped Rivers overcome his worst mechanical issues tried to help Tebow further, that same year he worked with Osweiler, which of those two are a Bronco now? That speaks volumes in my honest opinion.

Tebow wants to be a quarterback, he's wasting money left and right and still showing piss poor results. He's relentless, I'll give him that - but more then that he's delusional which is obvious. No one can argue his athletic talent and other qualities, but that will not make up for the deficiencies - it's a lot like the Rudy Ruetiger effect.

It's almost nauseating how many clamor to the delusional psychosis that he could be more, especially given that all signs point to the exact opposite...he could have been like Russell Wilson my ***, he couldn't clean Wilson's cleats, and Wilson would be another failed example if not for Marshawn Lynch and probably the greatest defense of this generation and even then Tebow would not measure up, even Kaepernick and Griffin are better quarterbacks to date then Tebow.

Ravage!!!
01-27-2015, 01:33 PM
Yeah.. Tebew behind Manning would be a complete waste of space.

Joel
01-27-2015, 02:00 PM
or winning a playoff game and throwing for 313 yards and the game winning td giving Denver its first playoffs in 8 years....

I know its hard for some people to get their heads around, but alot of people in Denver still like Tebow and would have liked to keep him on the roster to see him develop till Manning retired.
That was never going to happen. For one thing, signing Manning was a clear statement Elway was sure Tebow wasn't The Guy, but for another, HE was sure he was ready to be an NFL starter, so however low key he was in public, he wasn't willingly returning to the bench, even behind a first ballot HoFer, even briefly. The story was Elway gave him his pick of the few trade offers and he chose the Jets because convinced Sanchez would finishing playing himself out of a job in under a year (which was true) so he'd be the inevitable default successor (which was false.)

It may be interesting to speculate what might've been had we played out that hand with his first real offseason and first full season of starts, but it's DEFINITELY impossible to prove anything either way: All it can (and will) do is stir up a lot of bitter old arguments that remain as inconclusive as ever (so they continue forever because neither side can ever truly "win" a debate on hypotheticals.)

MOtorboat
01-27-2015, 02:12 PM
If my wagon was attached to that pathetic of a quarterback, I wouldn't want to discuss hypotheticals, either.

Rick
01-27-2015, 02:17 PM
Tebow was a great guy and a guy I loved to root for, I would have loved it if he could have been the guy for us to build a franchise around if he ever could have learned to throw.

Let's face it, how far could we have gone over time with a QB that completes less than 50% of his passes?

Slick
01-27-2015, 02:20 PM
As bad as he was at throwing the ball, he saved me from having to watch Kyle Orton take another snap in a Broncos uniform. I will always be grateful for that.

underrated29
01-27-2015, 02:26 PM
I dont see the big deal? Tebow never would have played behind manning anyway. Be it Oz, Tebow, the other Qbs we drafted.....none would have played. It could have been ronnie hillman as the backup. Oz only played garbage time and like 1 play when manning hurt his quad. and like I said- who knows what tebow may have been molded into. Maybe molded into different shape of shit or maybe molded into a russell wilson type. We will never know. I am not sure why anyone would get up in arms about it. Dude is gone. Never coming back and anything else is just wild speculation on any side.

Joel
01-27-2015, 02:37 PM
If my wagon was attached to that pathetic of a quarterback, I wouldn't want to discuss hypotheticals, either.
There's no way to know how he'd be playing now, because he's not, so discussing it's worse than a waste of time because it can only lead back to, well, THIS till there's proof either way, and there never can be.

MOtorboat
01-27-2015, 02:48 PM
There's no way to know how he'd be playing now, because he's not, so discussing it's worse than a waste of time because it can only lead back to, well, THIS till there's proof either way, and there never can be.

You write thousands of words based hypotheticals all the time, but you clam up on this one? Hilarious.

I wonder if Bengals fans wonder what Akili Smith's 2005 season would have been like? Let's ask King.

Joel
01-27-2015, 02:55 PM
You write thousands of words based hypotheticals all the time, but you clam up on this one? Hilarious.

I wonder if Bengals fans wonder what Akili Smith's 2005 season would have been like? Let's ask King.
I don't write about UNVERIFIABLE hypotheticals, because it's a waste of time that can only lead to interminable arguments, which is bad enough when folks don't get abusive and personal. To take a topical example, we've got a great test of what would've happened if we'd drafted the two rookie linemen starting this weekends SB instead of a WR who spent the season on the bench behind THREE Pro Bowlers while our line got our RBs beat to Hell and our QB a torn quad: Those teams are in the SB, and we couldn't even win a playoff game.

We can't point to Tebows record with some other team, nor does his rejection by a team and coach who drafted and started the likes of Mark Sanchez and Geno Smith. It's a great big question mark that does nothing—CAN do nothing—but resume a bunch of vicious fights that became tedious years ago. With that in mind, I'm out of it; have fun beating a dead Bronco if you like.

Ravage!!!
01-27-2015, 02:58 PM
There's no way to know how he'd be playing now, because he's not, so discussing it's worse than a waste of time because it can only lead back to, well, THIS till there's proof either way, and there never can be.

Yeah, I gotta say that kinda weird to see you claim it's a "waste of time" to discuss hypotheticals when you have gone on for MONTHS and 10's of thousands of words, explaining how YOU would have fixed the OL with your hypothetical signings and hypothetical draft choices, all resulting in your hypothetical 'fix' that those in charge just couldn't see as well as you could.

Joel
01-27-2015, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I gotta say that kinda weird to see you claim it's a "waste of time" to discuss hypotheticals when you have gone on for MONTHS and 10's of thousands of words, explaining how YOU would have fixed the OL with your hypothetical signings and hypothetical draft choices, all resulting in your hypothetical 'fix' that those in charge just couldn't see as well as you could.
Not UNVERIFIABLE hypotheticals though: The other guys we could've had aren't co-hosting morning talk shows; two of them have started all year, including this weeks SB.

Ravage!!!
01-27-2015, 03:09 PM
Not UNVERIFIABLE hypotheticals though: The other guys we could've had aren't co-hosting morning talk shows; two of them have started all year, including this weeks SB.

It's absolutely unverifiable. Don't convince yourself otherwise. Your hypotheticals on how YOU would have fixed the OL is completely hypothetical. No more so than guessing how Tebow would have worked out sitting behind Manning.

In fact, knowing that Tebow would have completely failed is a LOT more possible than any of your guesses on the OL.

Joel
01-27-2015, 04:21 PM
It's absolutely unverifiable. Don't convince yourself otherwise. Your hypotheticals on how YOU would have fixed the OL is completely hypothetical. No more so than guessing how Tebow would have worked out sitting behind Manning.

In fact, knowing that Tebow would have completely failed is a LOT more possible than any of your guesses on the OL.
VERIFIED: Our coaches knew our line was a fatal flaw by the end of last years SB (probably by the end of the 1st qtr) and Gase told Phil Simms in the offseason our one-dimensional offense cost us a title.
VERIFIED: Clark AND Cornick were such liabilities as starting RTs we benched BOTH and moved our All Pro G out of position.
VERIFIED: Despite that indisputable need, the RT we took on the 3rd rounds next to last pick NEVER EVEN DRESSED ALL YEAR.
VERIFIED: All ELEVEN OTs drafted higher played this year, many started, a few won the job permanently and one is starting in the SB.
VERIFIED: The WR we picked instead of those guys spent all but the last couple games on the bench behind THREE Pro Bowlers.

It's VERIFIED our coaches knew our line was a fatal flaw by the end of last years SB (probably by the end of the 1st qtr) and VERIFIED Gase told Phil Simms in the offseason our one-dimensional offense cost us a title. It's also VERIFIED we didn't even take a SWING at the line despite all that. And no, spending the #95 overall pick on the 11th OT in a draft deep in offensive linemen isn't "taking a swing:" It's "taking a flyer" at one of the few positions we couldn't afford that.

It's the same with spending the #207 overall pick on a C everyone pretty much knew was headed for the PS the moment we picked him. Even after Ramirez sent the SBs first scrimmage snap past Mannings ear, how many people greeted the late 6th round pick of Paradis with "great; we've got the guy to replace Ramirez"?

None of this is speculation or what-iffing; that's what's so frustrating. This whole season felt like being tied to the tracks watching a speeding freight trains approach, hoping for help we knew wasn't coming.

Ravage!!!
01-27-2015, 04:52 PM
blah blah blah... its alllllll hypothetical on how YOUR "fixes" would have done a damned thing. It seems that you believe your 'beliefs' are facts... they aren't. You BELIEVE you know more than the coaches....believe me, you do NOT. So your hypothetical fixes are nothing more than hypotheticals and not less so than any other hypothetical... no matter how much YOU think them to be true.

Joel
01-27-2015, 05:57 PM
Blah, blah, blah, don't bother me with facts? It's not just my "belief" that:

1) ELEVEN other OTs were drafted higher than Schofield, nor that they all played and some won starting jobs while he NEVER dressed all year: Documented concrete FACTS.

2) Our infallible coaches ADMITTED failure to find a line good enough to win the last SB, nor that they changed 4/5 line positions more than once without finding the elusive solution: Documented concrete facts.

3) The WR we drafted instead of a lineman spent all but the last 2-3 games on the bench behind THREE current and/or former Pro Bowles: Documented concrete fact.

Can we be CERTAIN any or all OTs drafted before Schofield would've helped more than he, let alone Clark and Cornick? No, but the FACT all of them played while he watched, and several earned the starting jobs Clark and Cornick LOST are strong evidence they would've; I may not be smarter than Fox, but DID know he was WAY off calling Clark "the best backup OT in the league."

Ravage!!!
01-27-2015, 06:01 PM
Facts? :lol: wow.. You are STILL denying that everything you GUESS to happen, everything you said you WOULD have done.. everything you THOUGHT should be done, are alllllll hypothetical solutions. QUIT saying "our OT was replaced, thus my hypothetical is fact." Its NOT fact, Joel. Quit trying to make yourself out to be some kind of savant and future telling prodigy. No one is impressed, outside of yourself. Quit trying to make it sound as if YOU have EVERYTHING figured out, and if the coaches would ONLY BE AS COMPETENT as you, everything woudl be awesome.

Lets be realistic here...seriously. Stop with the self promotion.

Joel
01-27-2015, 08:33 PM
Look up last years draft and see ELEVEN OTs went before Schofield; look up the record of each one and see they ALL played, many started and several won the starting job permanently—one of them in Sundays SB—while Schofield was INACTIVE ALL SEASON. Look up Gase telling Simms one-dimensional offense lost last years SB. Look up how many Broncos linemen starting Opening Day played the same spots in our playoff loss. Look up the last two Pro Bowl rosters and see Sanders on one, Welker on the other and Thomas on BOTH, then look up how many games Latimer played.

Those aren't speculative hypotheticals, they're matters of fact and public record; you don't have to take my word for any of it: TAKE THE NFLS!

As to our FORMER coaches, I don't know everything would be awesome if they were competent, but they wouldn't have taken the NFLs best roster to ANOTHER one-and-done that got them FIRED.

Simple Jaded
01-27-2015, 10:28 PM
or winning a playoff game and throwing for 313 yards and the game winning td giving Denver its first playoffs in 8 years....

I know its hard for some people to get their heads around, but alot of people in Denver still like Tebow and would have liked to keep him on the roster to see him develop till Manning retired.


You can't have Tebow on your team unless you're 1000% committed to him as a starter, you just can't, you do realize that right?

Tebowfans would have been screaming for Tebow as soon as Manning threw 3 Int's against the Falcons, as a matter of fact, I think I remember you doing just that.

Tebow is toxic, weve been through this, and his fans are the reason.

Joel
01-27-2015, 10:53 PM
True, but moot: He wanted out the moment we signed Manning, because he was sure he was an NFL starter. Part of that's almost probably because even if he knew he didn't have the skills and never would, he was even more sure the Lord would make a way because His plan stands or falls on His "humble" little boy. His fans were only part of the problem.

TXBRONC
01-28-2015, 08:53 AM
You can't have Tebow on your team unless you're 1000% committed to him as a starter, you just can't, you do realize that right?

Tebowfans would have been screaming for Tebow as soon as Manning threw 3 Int's against the Falcons, as a matter of fact, I think I remember you doing just that.

Tebow is toxic, weve been through this, and his fans are the reason.

Tebow is what he is as a player but the bigger problem was his fans who tended to be total douchenozzles.

Ravage!!!
01-28-2015, 12:50 PM
As to our FORMER coaches, I don't know everything would be awesome if they were competent, but they wouldn't have taken the NFLs best roster to ANOTHER one-and-done that got them FIRED.

another hypothetical : )

TXBRONC
01-29-2015, 01:00 PM
As to our FORMER coaches, I don't know everything would be awesome if they were competent, but they wouldn't have taken the NFLs best roster to ANOTHER one-and-done that got them FIRED.

I agree with Rav on this, there is no way to know this.

Joel
01-29-2015, 01:09 PM
I agree with Rav on this, there is no way to know this.
Competent coaches don't lose home playoff games to rosters theirs so completely outclasses. Indys D is a sieve, and after Bradshaw broke his leg in mid-November Luck was pretty much their whole team (yes, they've got a couple good WRs, but SOMEONE must get them the ball.) We had a league-high NINE guys named Pro Bowl starters, and two more started due to injury and the SB: Literally HALF OUR STARTERS ARE PRO BOWLERS! And it's really more than that, because Welker's been to many Pro Bowls, and Vasquez was an All Pro last year before we moved him out of position.

We've got significantly more talent than the NE team that blew Indy out even after the refs took away their nerf balls. With even average coaches, WE blow them out of Mile High.

Ravage!!!
01-30-2015, 12:23 PM
Competent coaches don't lose home playoff games to rosters theirs so completely outclasses. Indys D is a sieve, and after Bradshaw broke his leg in mid-November Luck was pretty much their whole team (yes, they've got a couple good WRs, but SOMEONE must get them the ball.) We had a league-high NINE guys named Pro Bowl starters, and two more started due to injury and the SB: Literally HALF OUR STARTERS ARE PRO BOWLERS! And it's really more than that, because Welker's been to many Pro Bowls, and Vasquez was an All Pro last year before we moved him out of position.

We've got significantly more talent than the NE team that blew Indy out even after the refs took away their nerf balls. With even average coaches, WE blow them out of Mile High.

No matter how many different ways you phrase the same thing..... it's still just generalizations. If what you say is true, no one would lose home games, and there would never be an 'upset.' The 'best' teams would always get to the Super Bowl and win, and there would be no reason to play the games because the paper would tell us who 'should' win.

Hypothetical statements and generalizations are easy to state as fact when its something you believe. Doesn't make them anything other than what they are, however.

Joel
01-30-2015, 01:30 PM
No matter how many different ways you phrase the same thing..... it's still just generalizations. If what you say is true, no one would lose home games, and there would never be an 'upset.' The 'best' teams would always get to the Super Bowl and win, and there would be no reason to play the games because the paper would tell us who 'should' win.

Hypothetical statements and generalizations are easy to state as fact when its something you believe. Doesn't make them anything other than what they are, however.
11 Pro Bowlers, plus 3 more from last year (including All Pro Vasquez) lost to a statistically average run and pass D, Ahmad Bradshaws BACKUP and Andrew Luck. Basically and almost literally,

Andrew Luck SINGLEHANDEDLY beat HALF THE AFC PRO BOWL TEAM!
Yet we're SERIOUSLY debating whether that teams coaches are competent?! Why? Some kind of academic exercise testing whether anyone can prove the self-evident? :confused:

MOtorboat
01-30-2015, 01:41 PM
11 Pro Bowlers, plus 3 more from last year (including All Pro Vasquez) lost to a statistically average run and pass D, Ahmad Bradshaws BACKUP and Andrew Luck. Basically and almost literally,

Andrew Luck SINGLEHANDEDLY beat HALF THE AFC PRO BOWL TEAM!
Yet we're SERIOUSLY debating whether that teams coaches are competent?! Why? Some kind of academic exercise testing whether anyone can prove the self-evident? :confused:

Your assessments on the coaching staff are so ******* ridiculously overblown that it makes you look stupid.

John Fox is incompetent because he lost a game he should have won? His entire career be damned! How ******* ridiculous is that. For ****'s sake, it was time for a coaching change but dammit how ******* stupid is this drivel?

TXBRONC
01-30-2015, 01:58 PM
Competent coaches don't lose home playoff games to rosters theirs so completely outclasses. Indys D is a sieve, and after Bradshaw broke his leg in mid-November Luck was pretty much their whole team (yes, they've got a couple good WRs, but SOMEONE must get them the ball.) We had a league-high NINE guys named Pro Bowl starters, and two more started due to injury and the SB: Literally HALF OUR STARTERS ARE PRO BOWLERS! And it's really more than that, because Welker's been to many Pro Bowls, and Vasquez was an All Pro last year before we moved him out of position.

We've got significantly more talent than the NE team that blew Indy out even after the refs took away their nerf balls. With even average coaches, WE blow them out of Mile High.

That is ridiculous Denver isn't the only team to lose to a supposedly weaker opponent. A few years go the Giants finished 9-7 barely made the playoffs and beat the number one seeded Packers at Lambeau.

Cugel
01-30-2015, 02:36 PM
VERIFIED: Our coaches knew our line was a fatal flaw by the end of last years SB (probably by the end of the 1st qtr) and Gase told Phil Simms in the offseason our one-dimensional offense cost us a title.
VERIFIED: Clark AND Cornick were such liabilities as starting RTs we benched BOTH and moved our All Pro G out of position.
VERIFIED: Despite that indisputable need, the RT we took on the 3rd rounds next to last pick NEVER EVEN DRESSED ALL YEAR.
VERIFIED: All ELEVEN OTs drafted higher played this year, many started, a few won the job permanently and one is starting in the SB.
VERIFIED: The WR we picked instead of those guys spent all but the last couple games on the bench behind THREE Pro Bowlers.

It's VERIFIED our coaches knew our line was a fatal flaw by the end of last years SB (probably by the end of the 1st qtr) and VERIFIED Gase told Phil Simms in the offseason our one-dimensional offense cost us a title. It's also VERIFIED we didn't even take a SWING at the line despite all that. And no, spending the #95 overall pick on the 11th OT in a draft deep in offensive linemen isn't "taking a swing:" It's "taking a flyer" at one of the few positions we couldn't afford that.

It's the same with spending the #207 overall pick on a C everyone pretty much knew was headed for the PS the moment we picked him. Even after Ramirez sent the SBs first scrimmage snap past Mannings ear, how many people greeted the late 6th round pick of Paradis with "great; we've got the guy to replace Ramirez"?

None of this is speculation or what-iffing; that's what's so frustrating. This whole season felt like being tied to the tracks watching a speeding freight trains approach, hoping for help we knew wasn't coming.

Basically, I felt the same way. You knew in the offseason that there was a problem exposed in the SB with the OL and that they had done nothing really to fix it.

The fixes were:

Move Chris Clark, a career backup to RT. I tried to be optimistic about this, but they really needed a RT. Instead they drafted a guy and sat him on the bench. I can accept that they simply made a draft mistake, but why was there no effort to get a RT in FA?

Then once the season started there was endless reshuffling of the OL, which only made things worse. The started out with one serious problem - RT and managed to create THREE serious problems by moving everybody around.

Now they need a RT and a C. And no, Paradis is not any kind of solution.

Cugel
01-30-2015, 02:39 PM
That is ridiculous Denver isn't the only team to lose to a supposedly weaker opponent. A few years go the Giants finished 9-7 barely made the playoffs and beat the number one seeded Packers at Lambeau.

The Giants won the SB that year so "supposedly weaker" doesn't really cut it with them. The Colts went to Foxboro and died a horrible ugly flaming death very reminiscent of the Broncos SB performance or perhaps the Broncos - 49ers SB. (I apologize to old timers for mentioning that game but despite years of effort, I still haven't entirely managed to kill off all the brain cells that remember that afternoon).

Cugel
01-30-2015, 02:42 PM
Your assessments on the coaching staff are so ******* ridiculously overblown that it makes you look stupid.

John Fox is incompetent because he lost a game he should have won? His entire career be damned! How ******* ridiculous is that. For ****'s sake, it was time for a coaching change but dammit how ******* stupid is this drivel?

I think we can all relax and watch just how good a coach John Fox is when he tries to make something out of Jay Cutler. If he can do that, then I take my hat off to him. I'm not holding my breath though. I think Fox made a fatal mistake going to Chicago and that Del Rio is utterly doomed in Oakland just like Dennis Allen.

Valar Morghulis
01-30-2015, 02:48 PM
I think we can all relax and watch just how good a coach John Fox is when he tries to make something out of Jay Cutler. If he can do that, then I take my hat off to him. I'm not holding my breath though. I think Fox made a fatal mistake going to Chicago and that Del Rio is utterly doomed in Oakland just like Dennis Allen.

I think del Rio is a better HC than DC and I think Oakland are dangerously close to turning it around

Cugel
01-30-2015, 02:57 PM
I think del Rio is a better HC than DC and I think Oakland are dangerously close to turning it around

Well, they could hardly be worse! But, they've got exactly 2 players: Derek Carr and Khalil Mack. The entire rest of their roster is composed of guys who would be cut by most of the other teams in the NFL. If they get to 7-9 next season it will be a miracle.

Valar Morghulis
01-30-2015, 03:06 PM
Well, they could hardly be worse! But, they've got exactly 2 players: Derek Carr and Khalil Mack. The entire rest of their roster is composed of guys who would be cut by most of the other teams in the NFL. If they get to 7-9 next season it will be a miracle.

They have a good running back, Murray I think. James Jones is a good wr.

They will have lots of cap room - 2 years away from the playoffs IMO

Joel
01-30-2015, 06:14 PM
Your assessments on the coaching staff are so ******* ridiculously overblown that it makes you look stupid.

John Fox is incompetent because he lost a game he should have won? His entire career be damned! How ******* ridiculous is that. For ****'s sake, it was time for a coaching change but dammit how ******* stupid is this drivel?
Losing games he should've won summarizes Foxs career: He got the same one-and-done result with the same huge advantage in 2012, and got beaten badly 3 solid quarters of his previous SB before letting the offense play TOO LATE, score 19 4th qtr pts to turn an 11 pt deficit into a 1 pt lead, yet lose on a walkoff FG because he didn't show up before Tebow Time. If bad teams so often beat good ones on the road after playing an extra game, perhaps you can cite a time a great coach like Fox was on the RIGHT side of that? For that matter, if he's so good, why was it "time for a coaching change"?

Yet this wasn't just a good team beating a slightly better one: It was ONE GUY beating HALF A TEAM of Pro Bowlers.


That is ridiculous Denver isn't the only team to lose to a supposedly weaker opponent. A few years go the Giants finished 9-7 barely made the playoffs and beat the number one seeded Packers at Lambeau.
Not only is Cugel right NY was GOOD enough to beat the #4, #1 and #2 seeds on the road before beating NE in the SB, it was virtually the same team that did the SAME THING in '07; only difference is

1) Dallas was the #1 seed they beat on the road, so GB was the #2 seed NY beat on the road in the NFCCG and
2) The Pats were undefeated until that "inferior" team beat them in the SB.

The Colts don't have the '07 nor '11 Giants pass rush, and haven't had Ahmad Bradshaw since he broke his leg in mid-November: They have Andrew Luck and NOTHING ELSE. That shouldn't be enough against a home team with a week off to rest, heal and prepare when it produced HALF THE AFC PRO BOWL STARTERS. This wasn't a marginally lesser team lucky enough to squeak our a marginal road win, it was a WEAK team DOMINATING a VASTLY superior one throughout a road game. And not the first time that happened on Foxs watch, hence Elway cleaned house.

MOtorboat
01-30-2015, 10:38 PM
Good coaches get fired. Great coaches lose games. Organizations sometimes need to move on. Coaches sometimes need to move on. It's not a black and white conversation.

Fox is a good coach who didn't win enough big games and he and Denver (mutual) wanted to move on. It's not some idiotic endictment of his competency as a coach.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-31-2015, 12:16 AM
Fox will have the Bears at 8-8 this season. He's not foolish enough not to address the defense and not use his running game as the weapon it could be. He will stabilize the team and have them in the playoff race in a year or two.

Will he win a Super Bowl? Probably not, but he will make the Bears relevant again. That's his MO.

Cugel
01-31-2015, 05:52 AM
Fox will have the Bears at 8-8 this season. He's not foolish enough not to address the defense and not use his running game as the weapon it could be. He will stabilize the team and have them in the playoff race in a year or two.

Will he win a Super Bowl? Probably not, but he will make the Bears relevant again. That's his MO.

Not if he keeps Jeff George Cutler he won't. :coffee:

The fans in Chicago are in a state of riot. They want Cutler gone yesterday. And who can blame them? He's be horrible. Yet they would have a huge cap hit if they cut him because he's only played one year of a $57 million guaranteed contract. Most likely they try and find a QB to groom behind him for a year and then cut him because in his 10th season he's not going to suddenly become a SB quality QB. Yet they can't just cut him now and eat a huge cap hit and find a new QB this off-season.

It's very probable that Fox will have some success in Chicago and get them stabilized. He's a player's coach and very mellow. He will do in Chicago what he did with Tebow here - maybe 7-9 if they can beat the Lions. And they should beat the Vikings twice. But, they're in the same division with Aaron Rogers and the Lions are a good team. No shot at backing into the playoffs in a weak division like Tebow did at 8-8.

Fox is a coach who will take an 8-8 team and make them 8-8. If they're a 10-6 team talent wise he'll get them to 10-6. What he won't do is like John Harbaugh or Belichick or Pete Carroll, or Tom Coughlin, or even Andy Reid, make everybody play better than their talent level.

Valar Morghulis
01-31-2015, 07:01 AM
Fox is a coach who will take an 8-8 team and make them 8-8. If they're a 10-6 team talent wise he'll get them to 10-6. What he won't do is like John Harbaugh or Belichick or Pete Carroll, or Tom Coughlin, or even Andy Reid, make everybody play better than their talent level.

I think this is probably the fairest most accurate analysis of Fox I have read