Per Schefter - Manning played with torn quad

[VonDoom]

I know we don't need yet another Manning thread, but I wanted this to be visible:

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 2m2 minutes ago

Broncos QB Peyton Manning played Sunday’s Divisional Playoff loss and the past month of the season with a torn right quad, per two sources.

They've been telling us that there was no injury but obviously they were just trying to cover that up. Does this change anyone's feelings on whether Manning should return?

[silkamilkamonico]

The way this season ended it just seems like a bad culture. I think Denver needs to just blow it up and move in another direction - I don't care if it does take 20 years.

[BroncoJoe]

Schefter's timeline suggests the injury occurred in Week 15 against the Chargers. Over his final 3 games, Manning completed just 59% of his passes and averaged 6.3 yards per attempt.

- See more at: http://www.draftsharks.com/sharkbites/35971/manning-played-through-torn-quad#sthash.7PpfFGSs.dpuf

...

[Dzone]

Well, yes, that does change things if we now know he was playing at less than 100%. Show us proof on an mri and maybe Manning gets a bit of a pass. Cant say I saw him limping much

[silkamilkamonico]

Not going to limp much on a torn quad.

A torn calf though? Damn Rogers that's impressive.

[Traveler]

Does this change anyone's feelings on whether Manning should return?

No! Everyone was playing with some type of injury. Kudos to Peyton for trying to play through it, but it's time to move on.....

[NightTrainLayne]

Yes, this changes thoughts somewhat. Certainly he can heal up, but what happens next year if he gets another injury?

Thank God, in a way, that there is an explanation greater than "he's just old". But. .. he is getting old, and these types of injuries are likely to be more frequent as well.

I hate that as fanatics of this team, we don't have this information until it's too late, but I understand that you don't want to alert the opponents to a potential "target" for them to hit.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 5m

Peyton Manning initially tore his right quad Dec. 14 in win over Chargers, per sources. MRI back in Denver confirmed tear.

[wayninja]

Color me cynical, but I'm not sure I believe it. Why wasn't this disclosed? Other QB's playing through injuries had their ailments announced, and it's not like in a playoff game you need extra motivation to go after the opposing quarterback. Just seems extremely convenient to me.

[PatriotsGuy]

I suggested he might be hurt after I watched the Denver/Bengals game. The run game seemed forced and he just looked off.

[VonDoom]

No! Everyone was playing with some type of injury. Kudos to Peyton for trying to play through it, but it's time to move on.....

I actually agree with this. I just wanted to see what peoples' opinions were, in light of this information.

[CoachChaz]

I guess my question is this...how does a guy who never moves more than 2-3 yards in the pocket and folds like a lawn chair when a DL is within breathing distance of him, tear a quad to begin with? I could see if he was a mobile guy and took a risk, but I dont see what he could have done to have this happen. That being said...he is getting older and it doesnt take much, so who knows.

I'm okay with Manning being around next year. Mostly because I just dont see any other viable option to replace him right now. But I still think we need changes in coaching and a legitimate replacement to groom.

[VonDoom]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 6m6 minutes ago

If a torn quad was ailing Manning, that explains a lot. But why didn't the Broncos reveal the extent of the injury? Why hide it?

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 2m2 minutes ago

NFL teams are required to disclose injuries. Big difference between "he's got a thigh" and a torn quad. I knew we'd get this today.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 1m1 minute ago

If a dude is playing with a torn quad, hell no I don't expect him to run for it on 3rd and 5. Credit to Peyton for playing. However ...

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 43s44 seconds ago

still against the rules not to declare the injury. They know it.

[Northman]

Does this change anyone's feelings on whether Manning should return?

Yes and no.

It explains why he was struggling.

But im still pissed because,

1) If he was hurt he should of sat the last few games. Thats why we have backup QB's. I dont know the healing time of a quad but i know that him playing through it was not the best move.

2) Even if you have him playing to ensure a playoff spot than they should of used the 2 weeks to get Oz prepared to play. No one is going to convince me that it was the team's best interest to have a banged up Manning who was struggling with accuracy play in that game yesterday. And this falls on coaching and only tells me more that Fox needs to go.

I would of rather gone down yesterday with a QB who at least brings some mobility and more velocity in this throws than i would with a guy who cant run for a first down and totally misses on his long throws. You just cant tell me with 2 weeks to prepare they could not have gotten Oz up to speed.

[NightTrainLayne]

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 5m

Peyton Manning initially tore his right quad Dec. 14 in win over Chargers, per sources. MRI back in Denver confirmed tear.

They did a hell of a job keeping that under wraps.

[Dzone]

Exactly, when has manning ever ran hard enough to pop a quad?

[tripp]

I guess my question is this...how does a guy who never moves more than 2-3 yards in the pocket and folds like a lawn chair when a DL is within breathing distance of him, tear a quad to begin with? I could see if he was a mobile guy and took a risk, but I dont see what he could have done to have this happen. That being said...he is getting older and it doesnt take much, so who knows.

I'm okay with Manning being around next year. Mostly because I just dont see any other viable option to replace him right now. But I still think we need changes in coaching and a legitimate replacement to groom.

100% yes.

[G_Money]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 43s44 seconds ago

still against the rules not to declare the injury. They know it.

Yep. Fine coming. Just say he has a leg issue. At least it's not something with his arm or neck.

But as NTL said, old players get hurt. Ask Champ, who was a little more of a physical specimen throughout his career than Manning.

Nothing says Manning doesn't get hurt again next year. If it was a torn quad, then with an offseason and rehab he should be fine - in September. But we need him to be fine in January and February. If he comes back, fingers crossed on the health front - again.

[OB]

I wish it did change my mind but as an old person I know you just dont bounce back as easy as you did when you were 10-15 years younger.

At some point you have to face the facts that you just cant do it anymore

I do agree with Coach - I would be OK with him for one more year because I dont think Brock is going to be the guy of our future (I could be very wrong about this but I just dont see it)

[BroncoJoe]

Yes and no.

It explains why he was struggling.

But im still pissed because,

1) If he was hurt he should of sat the last few games. Thats why we have backup QB's. I dont know the healing time of a quad but i know that him playing through it was not the best move.

2) Even if you have him playing to ensure a playoff spot than they should of used the 2 weeks to get Oz prepared to play. No one is going to convince me that it was the team's best interest to have a banged up Manning who was struggling with accuracy play in that game yesterday. And this falls on coaching and only tells me more that Fox needs to go.

I would of rather gone down yesterday with a QB who at least brings some mobility and more velocity in this throws than i would with a guy who cant run for a first down and totally misses on his long throws. You just cant tell me with 2 weeks to prepare they could not have gotten Oz up to speed.

That is one thing that "bothers" me about Manning - he just doesn't want to give any practice reps or playing time to his backup. If true, we should have played Brock at least a little bit to let Manning heal, AND give Brock some live action playing time.

[NightTrainLayne]

Yep. Fine coming. Just say he has a leg issue. At least it's not something with his arm or neck.

But as NTL said, old players get hurt. Ask Champ, who was a little more of a physical specimen throughout his career than Manning.

Nothing says Manning doesn't get hurt again next year. If it was a torn quad, then with an offseason and rehab he should be fine - in September. But we need him to be fine in January and February. If he comes back, fingers crossed on the health front - again.

Bring Manning back, but let Oz take half of the snaps. . .at least half in the pre-season, and get him ready to spell Manning either for rest and/or in case of injury.

[Buff]

This just angers me further...

1.) We obviously have very little faith in Osweiler (see:none) that we'd rather continue to ride an ineffective Manning into the ground. He was putrid yesterday.
2.) It seems like a convenient excuse to not disclose the injury per league protocol and then use it as an excuse once the season is over. Either you are healthy enough to play effectively or you aren't. Manning was a liability. Why was he playing?
3.) He is so limited physically after 4 neck surgeries that any injury or imperfection renders him useless. Do we really want to pay $20 million/year for that kind of risk?

I'm done with Manning for the same reasons I was done with Plummer - I've seen his ceiling and it's no longer high enough.

[NightTrainLayne]

This just angers me further...

1.) We obviously have very little faith in Osweiler (see:none) that we'd rather continue to ride an ineffective Manning into the ground. He was putrid yesterday.
2.) It seems like a convenient excuse to not disclose the injury per league protocol and then use it as an excuse once the season is over. Either you are healthy enough to play effectively or you aren't. Manning was a liability. Why was he playing?
3.) He is so limited physically after 4 neck surgeries that any injury or imperfection renders him useless. Do we really want to pay $20 million/year for that kind of risk?

I'm done with Manning for the same reasons I was done with Plummer - I've seen his ceiling and it's no longer high enough.

I think this says more about Manning and the deference paid to a first-ballot HOFer than anything about our team's faith in Oz.

[Traveler]

I guess my question is this...how does a guy who never moves more than 2-3 yards in the pocket and folds like a lawn chair when a DL is within breathing distance of him, tear a quad to begin with? I could see if he was a mobile guy and took a risk, but I dont see what he could have done to have this happen. That being said...he is getting older and it doesnt take much, so who knows.

I'm okay with Manning being around next year. Mostly because I just dont see any other viable option to replace him right now. But I still think we need changes in coaching and a legitimate replacement to groom.

Mostly agree with you here. The exception being Manning for another year. Not all change is good or bad, but the team has way too many other decisions to make with the"younger" players on the team this offseason. For Elway's quote of "winning now and from now on" to mean anything, now is the time to move to the next phase IMO.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

This just angers me further...

1.) We obviously have very little faith in Osweiler (see:none) that we'd rather continue to ride an ineffective Manning into the ground. He was putrid yesterday.
2.) It seems like a convenient excuse to not disclose the injury per league protocol and then use it as an excuse once the season is over. Either you are healthy enough to play effectively or you aren't. Manning was a liability. Why was he playing?
3.) He is so limited physically after 4 neck surgeries that any injury or imperfection renders him useless. Do we really want to pay $20 million/year for that kind of risk?

I'm done with Manning for the same reasons I was done with Plummer - I've seen his ceiling and it's no longer high enough.

Can the front office get in trouble for calling it a bruise when it was a tear?

[tripp]

This just angers me further...

1.) We obviously have very little faith in Osweiler (see:none) that we'd rather continue to ride an ineffective Manning into the ground. He was putrid yesterday.
2.) It seems like a convenient excuse to not disclose the injury per league protocol and then use it as an excuse once the season is over. Either you are healthy enough to play effectively or you aren't. Manning was a liability. Why was he playing?
3.) He is so limited physically after 4 neck surgeries that any injury or imperfection renders him useless. Do we really want to pay $20 million/year for that kind of risk?

I'm done with Manning for the same reasons I was done with Plummer - I've seen his ceiling and it's no longer high enough.

Taking you to a SB a year ago wasn't a high enough ceiling? Ok, let's go with Brock then.

[NightTrainLayne]

Can the front office get in trouble for calling it a bruise when it was a tear?

Yes. The team will be fined, you can count on that.

[OB]

Taking you to a SB a year ago wasn't a high enough ceiling? Ok, let's go with Brock then.

Did we bring him in to GET us to the SB or WIN us a SB - pretty sure it was to WIN one

[BroncoWave]

This just angers me further...

1.) We obviously have very little faith in Osweiler (see:none) that we'd rather continue to ride an ineffective Manning into the ground. He was putrid yesterday.
2.) It seems like a convenient excuse to not disclose the injury per league protocol and then use it as an excuse once the season is over. Either you are healthy enough to play effectively or you aren't. Manning was a liability. Why was he playing?
3.) He is so limited physically after 4 neck surgeries that any injury or imperfection renders him useless. Do we really want to pay $20 million/year for that kind of risk?

I'm done with Manning for the same reasons I was done with Plummer - I've seen his ceiling and it's no longer high enough.

Great post. I think you summed everything up pretty nicely here. It's total BS that they are using the injury as an excuse now that we lost. And given his age, he will only be more susceptible to injury next year. He either needs to take a massive paycut or retire IMO.

[GEM]

Exactly, when has manning ever ran hard enough to pop a quad?

I think it was that hit he took to the thigh?

[GEM]

That is one thing that "bothers" me about Manning - he just doesn't want to give any practice reps or playing time to his backup. If true, we should have played Brock at least a little bit to let Manning heal, AND give Brock some live action playing time.

That is where my issue with this lies.

[tripp]

Did we bring him in to GET us to the SB or WIN us a SB - pretty sure it was to WIN one

He got you to a SB, unfortunately we lost it. What's your plan, get rid of Peyton so we can cycle through QB's till we can find one that can even win us the AFC West? Everyone acts like we have Tom Brady as our back up.

[VonDoom]

Manning initially injured his thigh when he rolled out right to throw a 12-yard completion to Emmanuel Sanders late in the first half of Denver's Dec. 14 win over the San Diego Chargers.

Following the game, Manning said he injured his leg on a throw to Sanders. There was some thought that he had hurt it on an 8-yard completion to Sanders with 2:43 to play in the first half or three plays before he left the field and went up the tunnel to the visitors' locker room. But after the 12-yard completion with 5:39 left, Manning can be seen flexing his leg and grimacing as he moves to call the next play.

Broncos doctors knew about the injury, and Manning did what he could to intentionally conceal the injury from as many people as he could, sources said.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12154238/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-played-torn-right-quad-last-month-season

[Cugel]

The way this season ended it just seems like a bad culture. I think Denver needs to just blow it up and move in another direction - I don't care if it does take 20 years.

I do care. So, pull that bag down over your head and get out of town!

[BroncoJoe]

He got you to a SB, unfortunately we lost it. What's your plan, get rid of Peyton so we can cycle through QB's till we can find one that can even win us the AFC West? Everyone acts like we have Tom Brady as our back up.

We don't know what we have. Manning can't move in the pocket, and when he does it's almost always an incomplete pass. Could have easily run for a 1st down on at least one occasion, and saw him take a sack where a mobile QB would not have.

Don't take out of context what a lot of us are saying - Manning's days might or might not be over. His is getting up there in age, and I'd rather start grooming another QB (who I think is Brock) while we still have a lot of pieces to compete.

[GEM]

Taking you to a SB a year ago wasn't a high enough ceiling? Ok, let's go with Brock then.

:laugh: Exactly...does anyone really think Manning goes away and things just get better? How better can they be and can the person behind Manning get you there? Nope, nope and nope.

[NightTrainLayne]

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12154238/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-played-torn-right-quad-last-month-season


Broncos doctors knew about the injury, and Manning did what he could to intentionally conceal the injury from as many people as he could, sources said.

I have to think on this for a while. What was Manning's motivation for concealing this "from as many people as he could"?

Again, this does seem to show how much deference the Broncos organization pays to Manning. And perhaps they should. But what is the motivation here? I can't figure it out.

[VonDoom]

Now conflicting "reports" from Vic Lombardi:

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 2m2 minutes ago

SOURCES TELL ME: Peyton did NOT tear his quad. It's a strain.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 1m1 minute ago

Different agendas coming to light now. Again, tests revealed a STRAINED quad. Not a tear.

[BroncoJoe]

Strained and "torn" can mean the same thing. At least partially torn = strain.


Definition
Quadriceps strain is a partial tear of the small fibers of the muscles that make up the quadriceps group. The quadriceps are the large group of muscles in the front of the thigh. They consist of four muscles in each leg that run from the hips to the knees.

http://medicine.med.nyu.edu/conditions-we-treat/conditions/quadriceps-strain

[NightTrainLayne]

now conflicting "reports" from vic lombardi:

Vic lombardi ‏@viclombardi 2m2 minutes ago

sources tell me: Peyton did not tear his quad. It's a strain.

Vic lombardi ‏@viclombardi 1m1 minute ago

different agendas coming to light now. Again, tests revealed a strained quad. Not a tear.

wtf?

[tripp]

We don't know what we have. Manning can't move in the pocket, and when he does it's almost always an incomplete pass. Could have easily run for a 1st down on at least one occasion, and saw him take a sack where a mobile QB would not have.

Don't take out of context what a lot of us are saying - Manning's days might or might not be over. His is getting up there in age, and I'd rather start grooming another QB (who I think is Brock) while we still have a lot of pieces to compete.

That's where I disagree, I'd rather another shot with Peyton. But I'll agree to disagree.

[VonDoom]

I have to think on this for a while. What was Manning's motivation for concealing this "from as many people as he could"?

Again, this does seem to show how much deference the Broncos organization pays to Manning. And perhaps they should. But what is the motivation here? I can't figure it out.

The wording on this definitely troubles me as well. The coaches have to act with the team in their best interests, not any one player, even if it is Manning. So either they helped cover it up or were somehow kept in the dark by the team doctors, and how likely is that?

[BroncoWave]

:laugh: Exactly...does anyone really think Manning goes away and things just get better? How better can they be and can the person behind Manning get you there? Nope, nope and nope.

No one is saying Manning leaving makes us better next year. I think the prevailing thought is that he's now a liability though and that it might be better for the long term future of the franchise to take a step back next year to start reloading for the future.

[Joel]

No! Everyone was playing with some type of injury. Kudos to Peyton for trying to play through it, but it's time to move on.....
It's a torn freaking quad, and QBs throw with their hips and legs at least as much as their arms. It's not like he went into a funk over a hangnail: It's something that can't help but severely impact any QBs game, whether he's 38 or 28.



Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 5m

Peyton Manning initially tore his right quad Dec. 14 in win over Chargers, per sources. MRI back in Denver confirmed tear.
Every :censored: time we play that team; remember when he came out of last years first SD with BOTH ankles taped and skipped practice days for the rest of the year, all becase "don't dive at the QBs knees after the pass" was too complex for Liuget to grasp? Half our team leaves on stretchers whenever we play those guys.

Manning plays the seasons whole last month plus a playoff game hurt (again) because his "just fine, Schlereth's an idiot" line (still) can't protect him, so the home crowd boos while the MBs demand the old chokers retirement. Yeah, I bet he's champing at the bit to come back for more of that, chasing a carrot on a stick through the snow yet another season with coaches who can't get him there. :rolleyes:

[Cugel]

He got you to a SB, unfortunately we lost it. What's your plan, get rid of Peyton so we can cycle through QB's till we can find one that can even win us the AFC West? Everyone acts like we have Tom Brady as our back up.

Those fans will be the same ones screaming "get RID of Osweiler! He sucks!" next year if Manning retires. Then after the Broncos get rid of Brock and get some other QB who also winds up sucking, and then another, they'll be screaming to fire the (new) coach, fire John Elway, etc., etc. It's depressingly predictable.

[VonDoom]

[QUOTE=BroncoJoe;2299663]Strained and "torn" can mean the same thing. At least partially torn = strain./QUOTE]

Thanks, I honestly didn't know the distinction. Per Vic again:

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 2m2 minutes ago

There was not a complete tear. No severance of muscle. To characterize it as a tear, according to my sources, is false. There's a difference

[Northman]

Good grief.....

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:

CAUSES


A strain occurs when a force is placed on the muscle or tendon that is greater than it can withstand. Common mechanisms of injury include:

Direct trauma to the quadriceps muscles or tendons.

http://www.sw.org/HealthLibrary?page=Quadriceps%20Tendon%20Tear,%20D isruption%20with%20Rehab-SportsMed

I posted this because people are questioning how Manning could have tore a quad, as he does not run. As it says, it can occur when a force is placed on the muscle or tendon. I don't remember if Manning was sacked in the Chargers' game, for this to happen.

[BroncoJoe]

That's where I disagree, I'd rather another shot with Peyton. But I'll agree to disagree.

Imagine how boring this site would be if we all agreed 100% of the time!

I'm leaning toward Manning being more of a liability. Especially over the course of a 16 game schedule.

[BroncoWave]

Imagine how boring this site would be if we all agreed 100% of the time!

I'm leaning toward Manning being more of a liability. Especially over the course of a 16 game schedule.

Yep. I still think Manning could be great when healthy, but I doubt he can make it another 16+ games without breaking down again.

[BroncoJoe]

Imagine how boring this site would be if we all agreed 100% of the time!

I'm leaning toward Manning being more of a liability. Especially over the course of a 16 game schedule.

To finish my thought...

Even Elway missed significant time in his final year. Manning would have been wise to do so this year. He just wasn't healthy, and I can't believe he'd be healthy all year next year.

I also can't imagine Oz is any worse than Bubby... ( I loved Bubby too ).

[Northman]

No one is saying Manning leaving makes us better next year. I think the prevailing thought is that he's now a liability though and that it might be better for the long term future of the franchise to take a step back next year to start reloading for the future.

Exactly.

I mean, if Manning had career ending injury with a broken his leg yesterday would Tripp and Gem still be clamoring to put him on the field just because of his past resume?

At some point Denver is going to have to move on. YEA! Lets stick his corpse out there anyway! Argh! :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 6m

There was not a complete tear. No severance of muscle. To characterize it as a tear, according to my sources, is false. There's a difference

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 7m

Different agendas coming to light now. Again, tests revealed a STRAINED quad. Not a tear.

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 8m

SOURCES TELL ME: Peyton did NOT tear his quad. It's a strain.

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 11m

Why he threw the ball early. Why he couldn't move laterally. Why he took so many self-sacks. Explains a lot. Why play him then?

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 15m

Got a sense from that locker room that players weren't overly shocked by the results. Now we know why. They knew. Explains a lot I guess.

[Cugel]

Now conflicting "reports" from Vic Lombardi:

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 2m2 minutes ago

SOURCES TELL ME: Peyton did NOT tear his quad. It's a strain.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 1m1 minute ago

Different agendas coming to light now. Again, tests revealed a STRAINED quad. Not a tear.

Doesn't matter does it? The backup QB is still Brock freakin' Osweiler and he still sucks. So what's the plan? 80% of the old Peyton Manning is still better than anybody else the Broncos can hope to find.

And its not even going to help to draft another QB this April, because the Broncos will be drafting in the late 20s once again and it will be a miracle if there's a QB available there who will ever be any good.

[GEM]

No one is saying Manning leaving makes us better next year. I think the prevailing thought is that he's now a liability though and that it might be better for the long term future of the franchise to take a step back next year to start reloading for the future.

And they are the same fans who are going to go ape shit crazy when this team goes 8-8 or worse in the process of trying to do so.

[tripp]

To finish my thought...

Even Elway missed significant time in his final year. Manning would have been wise to do so this year. He just wasn't healthy, and I can't believe he'd be healthy all year next year.

I also can't imagine Oz is any worse than Bubby... ( I loved Bubby too ).


Oddly enough I thought about that too when Elway missed time and had Bubby Brister come in and help. I don't see why we can't do that with Brock. That would require Brock to get some time with the first team which isn't always easy with Peyton at the helm.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Manning has to fully step into his throws. He's not Rogers who can throw 30 yard dimes flat footed.

[tripp]

No one is saying Manning leaving makes us better next year. I think the prevailing thought is that he's now a liability though and that it might be better for the long term future of the franchise to take a step back next year to start reloading for the future.

Lol and Peyton wasn't a liability when he came to Denver after his neck surgery and had to learn to throw a football again? His neck has always been a liability but after he took a few hits his first season here, everyone seemed to forget his neck was even an issue.

[Northman]

To finish my thought...

Even Elway missed significant time in his final year. Manning would have been wise to do so this year. He just wasn't healthy, and I can't believe he'd be healthy all year next year.

I also can't imagine Oz is any worse than Bubby... ( I loved Bubby too ).


People know i like Oz (yet i dont know how he will fare) but you could of put ANY QB to fill in for him the last few weeks and i would of been ok with that so as long as Peyton was healthy for the playoffs. Its not about me wanting to throw Oz in, its about protecting our star QB and sacrificing the short term for the long term goal which was a SB victory. Bottom line, if Manning was that hurt that it affected his game that much he should not have been playing. Even if Denver had sat him and we failed to make the playoffs this year i would of been ok with that because i understand injuries happen. We could of just done what we could and regrouped for the next year. To have Manning play the remaning schedule was ******* stupid. PERIOD.

[GEM]

Exactly.

I mean, if Manning had career ending injury with a broken his leg yesterday would Tripp and Gem still be clamoring to put him on the field just because of his past resume?

At some point Denver is going to have to move on. YEA! Lets stick his corpse out there anyway! Argh! :lol:

Who is clamoring? FFS North. Don't put words in my keyboard. Who takes over? And when they do, don't be the fan bitching about going 8-8 or worse. Cause that will happen. So when we aren't even competitive and the AFCW goes to San Diego, don't be bitching about the nobody qb who couldn't get the team with all the other talent near the playoffs.

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't think people trust Manning can remain healthy for full season.

And I think everyone knows when he is done, if it is next year, this team is going to slip into the other 26 NFL irrelevants or so. But it has to come.

[Cugel]

No one is saying Manning leaving makes us better next year. I think the prevailing thought is that he's now a liability though and that it might be better for the long term future of the franchise to take a step back next year to start reloading for the future.

If you define "long term future" as potentially 14 years (1999-2012) this could be true. That a franchise can't find an elite QB and disappears for a decade or more happens a LOT more often in the NFL than Indy going from Peyton to Andrew Luck.

If you realize that every single player, Von Miller, Chris Harris, Demaryius Thomas, Julius Thomas, Ryan Clady, every single one of them could be long since retired before Denver gets another chance at a SB then you stick with Manning. Period.

But I get the feeling that most of the fans who say things like this think somehow magically it will turn around in a year or so and out of a magic hat Denver is going to find another Hall of Fame caliber QB. :coffee:

Most of the time those "Magic Beans" you bought aren't really magic after all and you just traded the old family horse for some regular beans.

[BroncoWave]

And they are the same fans who are going to go ape shit crazy when this team goes 8-8 or worse in the process of trying to do so.

Some fans, sure. But I think most of us are intelligent to realize that next season will be more of a struggle without Manning.

[BroncoJoe]

Who is clamoring? FFS North. Don't put words in my keyboard. Who takes over? And when they do, don't be the fan bitching about going 8-8 or worse. Cause that will happen. So when we aren't even competitive and the AFCW goes to San Diego, don't be bitching about the nobody qb who couldn't get the team with all the other talent near the playoffs.

Can I borrow your crystal ball? I have a few things I'd like to know re: the next few months and this year as a whole.

tia.

[Northman]

Who is clamoring? FFS North. Don't put words in my keyboard. Who takes over? And when they do, don't be the fan bitching about going 8-8 or worse. Cause that will happen. So when we aren't even competitive and the AFCW goes to San Diego, don't be bitching about the nobody qb who couldn't get the team with all the other talent near the playoffs.

Ill say it again, i dont believe for a second that Elway will let this team fall to lows like it did under McD. Sure, we will struggle as all teams do when replacing a great QB but im more than ready for it. Whether its with Oz or someone else i more than ready for it. I was ready before Manning got here and i will be ready for it when he leaves. Will you be? Sounds doubtful. :lol:

[Buff]

Taking you to a SB a year ago wasn't a high enough ceiling? Ok, let's go with Brock then.

We could have played that game 100 times and lost 97 of them. Manning's track record shows that the stars need to align perfectly for his style of play to take him to the top. So while it may seem short sighted - I'd say, no, the ceiling is not high enough.


He got you to a SB, unfortunately we lost it. What's your plan, get rid of Peyton so we can cycle through QB's till we can find one that can even win us the AFC West? Everyone acts like we have Tom Brady as our back up.


Those fans will be the same ones screaming "get RID of Osweiler! He sucks!" next year if Manning retires. Then after the Broncos get rid of Brock and get some other QB who also winds up sucking, and then another, they'll be screaming to fire the (new) coach, fire John Elway, etc., etc. It's depressingly predictable.

This organization is essentially graded on a pass/fail grade anyway and the only way to pass is to win the super bowl. No sense in continuing to maintain our B grade when we need an A+.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Doesn't matter does it? The backup QB is still Brock freakin' Osweiler and he still sucks. So what's the plan? 80% of the old Peyton Manning is still better than anybody else the Broncos can hope to find.

And its not even going to help to draft another QB this April, because the Broncos will be drafting in the late 20s once again and it will be a miracle if there's a QB available there who will ever be any good.

How can you say that OZ sucks, when the only times we have seen him play were in preseason games with backups, or in a regular season game, when basically all they had him do was hand the ball off?

[OB]

Is a tear the same as a sprain?

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm hoping if Manning is done we absolutely change coaching staffs. Developing a young QB is going to require a staff that knows how to develop young talent and we don't have that now. Unless we're going to sign Drew Brees in a couple years.

[BroncoWave]

If Manning does want to come back, I think these are the contingencies Elway needs to set:

1. Paycut. I think almost all of us would agree he's not a 20 million dollar guy any more. I would have him cut that in half or so.

2. Give brock more practice snaps. He just has to be ready in case of an injury. Elway needs to tell Peyton he has no choice but to relinquish some practice snaps.

3. Manning has to sit if he is hurt. Peyton playing injured doesn't do himself or the team any good. And this ties into the need to get brock more snaps.

If he is willing to agree to those terms I'd be happy to have him back. But if not, Elway should thank Manning for his service here but let him know we need to move in a different direction.

[Northman]

How can you say that OZ sucks, when the only times we have seen him play were in preseason games with backups, or in a regular season game, when basically all they had him do was hand the ball off?

Dont waste your breath Carol. This guy just doesnt have a clue so trying to go back and forth with him is complete waste of time. Trust me. :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi retweeted
Dan Petty @danielpetty · 5m

JUST IN: #Broncos are disputing @AdamSchefter's report of Peyton Manning having a torn right quad: http://dpo.st/1DAUHfD

[Northman]

So we are back to him just being old then? lmao

Pretty funny the reporting isnt even being 100% confirmed.

[Dreadnought]

How can you say that OZ sucks, when the only times we have seen him play were in preseason games with backups, or in a regular season game, when basically all they had him do was hand the ball off?

Cugel has a long running belief that draft position is the be all and end all for QB's. Russell Wilson and Tom Brady and Kurt Warner I all disagree.

[silkamilkamonico]

How can you say that OZ sucks, when the only times we have seen him play were in preseason games with backups, or in a regular season game, when basically all they had him do was hand the ball off?

I don't think anyone can say he sucks, just like I don't think anyone can say what they have seen from him bodes confidence of him figureing it out in the future. He is a complete unknown right now.

[Joel]

And they are the same fans who are going to go ape shit crazy when this team goes 8-8 or worse in the process of trying to do so.
MUCH worse: Before Manning we needed the luckiest season in NFL history to reach 8-8 with a team that started 1-4 after a 4-12 finish. That teams few young stars are Pro Bowlers at or past the end of their cheap rookie contracts (e.g. Decker last year, DT now, Miller next year) so the caps already costing us players because we can't pay them all. Part of the reason is Manning's not our only pricey merc; when he put us in "win today" mode (yeah, I know what Elway said; he said Tebow would start in 2012, too) we paid top dollar for a bunch of guys near 30 who'll soon be fading fast just like Manning.

We didn't accelerate the rebuild, just delay it three years while we lived in a fantasy world where a dog team can sign an aging HoF QB, overnight build the championship TEAM they didn't have around him, and become an instant dynasty. That's so simple every team does it, right? And it's all Mannings fault it didn't work, so the problems that didn't magically vanish when signing him will do just that when he's cut.

No, I really DON'T like being right; I feel like I've spent three solid years tied to a railroad track waiting and hoping for a rescue I knew would never come. Next to people telling me I was a traitorous idiot for feeling that way and saying they'd rebrand their erstwhile savior a senile career choker when the freight train arrived to put us all out of our misery. Fun...? :confused:

[GEM]

If Manning does want to come back, I think these are the contingencies Elway needs to set:

1. Paycut. I think almost all of us would agree he's not a 20 million dollar guy any more. I would have him cut that in half or so.

2. Give brock more practice snaps. He just has to be ready in case of an injury. Elway needs to tell Peyton he has no choice but to relinquish some practice snaps.

3. Manning has to sit if he is hurt. Peyton playing injured doesn't do himself or the team any good. And this ties into the need to get brock more snaps.

If he is willing to agree to those terms I'd be happy to have him back. But if not, Elway should thank Manning for his service here but let him know we need to move in a different direction.

Agree with this completely. I don't have some messed up idea that Manning is the player he was even 3 years ago. But I just don't have any confidence in Oz and I'm not sure who else we could get where we are in the draft board or available through FA.

But if he does come back, that list is a very good set of guidelines.

[TXBRONC]

I have to think on this for a while. What was Manning's motivation for concealing this "from as many people as he could"?

Again, this does seem to show how much deference the Broncos organization pays to Manning. And perhaps they should. But what is the motivation here? I can't figure it out.

The possible motivation is that there is no calls/pressure for him to sit and heal.

[VonDoom]

If Manning does want to come back, I think these are the contingencies Elway needs to set:

1. Paycut. I think almost all of us would agree he's not a 20 million dollar guy any more. I would have him cut that in half or so.

2. Give brock more practice snaps. He just has to be ready in case of an injury. Elway needs to tell Peyton he has no choice but to relinquish some practice snaps.

3. Manning has to sit if he is hurt. Peyton playing injured doesn't do himself or the team any good. And this ties into the need to get brock more snaps.

If he is willing to agree to those terms I'd be happy to have him back. But if not, Elway should thank Manning for his service here but let him know we need to move in a different direction.

This is pretty reasonable, actually. It might be the best chance we have to go through a "transition year", as we could actually see Oz work with the first teamers and maybe even get some game action, while still having Manning for a real retirement tour. I don't know if he or the team would do this, but I could get on board with it.

[Buff]

If Manning does want to come back, I think these are the contingencies Elway needs to set:

1. Paycut. I think almost all of us would agree he's not a 20 million dollar guy any more. I would have him cut that in half or so.

2. Give brock more practice snaps. He just has to be ready in case of an injury. Elway needs to tell Peyton he has no choice but to relinquish some practice snaps.

3. Manning has to sit if he is hurt. Peyton playing injured doesn't do himself or the team any good. And this ties into the need to get brock more snaps.

If he is willing to agree to those terms I'd be happy to have him back. But if not, Elway should thank Manning for his service here but let him know we need to move in a different direction.

I think the writing is on the wall that Brock is never going to amount to anything more than Peyton Manning's insurance plan. He hasn't really shown flashes of anything in 3 years. When we really needed him, the coaches chose not to use him. I guess it just seems too little and too late for #2. No sense in mandating that if the coaches didn't organically come to that conclusion on their own. I agree with 1 & 3 though.

[MOtorboat]

I'm confused. Didn't we know about this? He's been listed as limited in practice with a thigh injury for three weeks.

[BroncoJoe]

If Manning does want to come back, I think these are the contingencies Elway needs to set:

1. Paycut. I think almost all of us would agree he's not a 20 million dollar guy any more. I would have him cut that in half or so.

2. Give brock more practice snaps. He just has to be ready in case of an injury. Elway needs to tell Peyton he has no choice but to relinquish some practice snaps.

3. Manning has to sit if he is hurt. Peyton playing injured doesn't do himself or the team any good. And this ties into the need to get brock more snaps.

If he is willing to agree to those terms I'd be happy to have him back. But if not, Elway should thank Manning for his service here but let him know we need to move in a different direction.

Elway's last year - and I'm mentioning that assuming this was Peyton's last year, or maybe next year - he was held out of practice at least one day each week, giving Bubby time to work with the first stringers. Manning would NEVER let that happen based on reports from training camp and practices.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that the Colts went 2-14 the year he was out, after a 10-6 year. The next they went 11-5. Granted, Painter was GOD-Awful, but was it because he was just awful or because he got zero reps and/or help from Manning? I'd guess he was bad, but even Tebow won more than 2 games.

[Buff]

I'm confused. Didn't we know about this? He's been listed as limited in practice with a thigh injury for three weeks.

We all suspected it - especially when he was still missing playoff practice time during the bye week. But the Schefter report implies that we understated the severity.

[VonDoom]

MUCH worse: Before Manning we needed the luckiest season in NFL history to reach 8-8 with a team that started 1-4 after a 4-12 finish. That teams few young stars are Pro Bowlers at or past the end of their cheap rookie contracts (e.g. Decker last year, DT now, Miller next year) so the caps already costing us players because we can't pay them all. Part of the reason is Manning's not our only pricey merc; when he put us in "win today" mode (yeah, I know what Elway said; he said Tebow would start in 2012, too) we paid top dollar for a bunch of guys near 30 who'll soon be fading fast just like Manning.

We didn't accelerate the rebuild, just delay it three years while we lived in a fantasy world where a dog team can sign an aging HoF QB, overnight build the championship TEAM they didn't have around him, and become an instant dynasty. That's so simple every team does it, right? And it's all Mannings fault it didn't work, so the problems that didn't magically vanish when signing him will do just that when he's cut.

No, I really DON'T like being right; I feel like I've spent three solid years tied to a railroad track waiting and hoping for a rescue I knew would never come. Next to people telling me I was a traitorous idiot for feeling that way and saying they'd rebrand their erstwhile savior a senile career choker when the freight train arrived to put us all out of our misery. Fun...? :confused:

We've been a contender for the three years since Manning has been here, and we were in the freakin' Super Bowl last year. We didn't win - we all know this. But having Manning wasn't a failure, even if he retires today. We also didn't sacrifice any rebuilding years - we have a ton of talent who came to this team to play WITH Manning, and if Manning leaves now, we'll still have those players plus $20 million in cap room to spend elsewhere.

[silkamilkamonico]

We've been a contender for the three years since Manning has been here, and we were in the freakin' Super Bowl last year. We didn't win - we all know this. But having Manning wasn't a failure, even if he retires today. We also didn't sacrifice any rebuilding years - we have a ton of talent who came to this team to play WITH Manning, and if Manning leaves now, we'll still have those players plus $20 million in cap room to spend elsewhere.

Some would disagree with you. And in that, they are saying that in the Broncos 55 years of existence, the entire thing has been a failure with the exception of 2 years.

I certainly wouldn't, and definitely not going to bag on Peyton Manning like some do around here just because he didn't bring us a SuperBowl. I'll blame the coaching for that one.

[G_Money]

Shanny was a tremendous coach, and he could barely win a playoff game without Elway. We have basically what the Steelers had when they got Big Ben. So - we need to find Big Ben. I'm an Oz doubter and always have been, so I don't think it's him. But do you want to spend a high draftpick on a QB when that talent could help put you over the top this year? I mean, whaddaya want: a new RT or a backup QB who will hopefully start soon? You wanna go later in the draft and take someone like Grayson out of CSU or the skinny Rakeem Cato, hope a guy like that can somehow transcend the odds and become a Pro-Bowl level QB?

*shrugs* Do I think we can be a .500 team without Manning? Sure, we can probably do that. Do we have the team to be great without good QB play? Sure doesn't seem so.

Maybe a new HC and OC would change that... but very few teams get far without a good QB. Without Manning, we'll have to scrounge one up.

Any chance we trade Von Miller and some stuff for Mariota? Yeah, I didn't so.

[VonDoom]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 19m19 minutes ago

The Broncos diagnosed Manning with a strained quad (yes, a strain is a partial tear). Had it been a full tear, he would not have played.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 18m18 minutes ago

So to call it a "torn quad" is misleading. You don't play football with a torn quad.

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 7m7 minutes ago

Specifically: Peyton Manning has a torn rectus femoris, which runs down center of thigh. Bruising was so severe it spread to back of his leg

:confused:

[Joel]

We've been a contender for the three years since Manning has been here, and we were in the freakin' Super Bowl last year. We didn't win - we all know this. But having Manning wasn't a failure, even if he retires today. We also didn't sacrifice any rebuilding years - we have a ton of talent who came to this team to play WITH Manning, and if Manning leaves now, we'll still have those players plus $20 million in cap room to spend elsewhere.
Sanders, Ward and a bunch of cap-busters near or past 30? That's not a rebuild, it's Win Today Mode. We HAD a (very) few stars when we signed Manning, but now their rookie contracts are ending and we have to PAY them like stars while doing the same with all those pricey FAs who only have a 2-3 good years left. The cap, FA and reality don't allow teams to skip rebuild mode; all we did was postpone it. The only good news is 4-12 seasons and top five draft picks make it easier to draft the franchise All Pros a rebuilding team needs; hard to do that after an 8-8 season going nowhere.

[BroncoJoe]

I think the writing is on the wall that Brock is never going to amount to anything more than Peyton Manning's insurance plan. He hasn't really shown flashes of anything in 3 years. When we really needed him, the coaches chose not to use him. I guess it just seems too little and too late for #2. No sense in mandating that if the coaches didn't organically come to that conclusion on their own. I agree with 1 & 3 though.

I just don't get the logic in this statement and others re: Brock. Of course he hasn't
shown flashes of anything in 3 years.. He hasn't played!

As also mentioned, I don't think Manning allows his backup to play. At all. If he can stand up, he's going to play. What is concerning is Manning seems to control the coaching staff.

[silkamilkamonico]

If Manning had a full tear, he would have been done for the year and had surgery. I'm not even sure why they are continuing to run with this story. It's kind of taking away from their credibility a little.

[OB]

Losing the SB was not solely on Peyton's shoulders IMO - that was coaching (they werent prepared for the noise and didnt have a proper game plan to handle it) - Our defense was way softer than it is this year and I think our ST has stepped up this year also - I say if we took Manning of last season with this seasons team (which we all kind of thought was going to happen)- we win the SB BUT for whatever reason the Manning from last season disappeared 6 weeks ago and never returned - WHY that happened (which I think is the biggest argument at this point) no one really knows but hopefully John & Co. can figure it out

[GEM]

Ill say it again, i dont believe for a second that Elway will let this team fall to lows like it did under McD. Sure, we will struggle as all teams do when replacing a great QB but im more than ready for it. Whether its with Oz or someone else i more than ready for it. I was ready before Manning got here and i will be ready for it when he leaves. Will you be? Sounds doubtful. :lol:

I'll be just fine, North. Not sure why you are getting personal, but I'll stick with football. I am worried about who takes over and what they can bring to the table. I just hope people are prepared for a team that isn't as successful the next year or more while we get that player in place.

[Northman]

Specifically: Peyton Manning has a torn rectus femoris,
:confused:

You mean he and the Broncos got ass raped by the Colts. Yea, we knew that already.

[silkamilkamonico]

Ilike how everyone insinuates they are so confident with John Elway, just like they were that he would bring us a SuperBowl when we signed Manning.

Oops

[Joel]

Just glad I was wrong about the fanbase melting down when the QB expected to singlehandedly win MULTIPLE SBs won NONE. Congrats to everyone for accepting reality with such grace and proving me wrong.

[G_Money]

*sighs*

A completely torn quad would have been unplayable, yes. But a "torn quad" the way they're talking about it sounds like a Grade 2. If you have a Grade 2 hamstring you're out 4-6 weeks - it's pretty severe. Even a partially torn quad would make the act of stepping into throws pretty damn difficult. Sounds like Manning either partially or completely tore one of the 4 quad muscles. He should have sat more than 4 plays or whatever.

[GEM]

MUCH worse: Before Manning we needed the luckiest season in NFL history to reach 8-8 with a team that started 1-4 after a 4-12 finish. That teams few young stars are Pro Bowlers at or past the end of their cheap rookie contracts (e.g. Decker last year, DT now, Miller next year) so the caps already costing us players because we can't pay them all. Part of the reason is Manning's not our only pricey merc; when he put us in "win today" mode (yeah, I know what Elway said; he said Tebow would start in 2012, too) we paid top dollar for a bunch of guys near 30 who'll soon be fading fast just like Manning.

We didn't accelerate the rebuild, just delay it three years while we lived in a fantasy world where a dog team can sign an aging HoF QB, overnight build the championship TEAM they didn't have around him, and become an instant dynasty. That's so simple every team does it, right? And it's all Mannings fault it didn't work, so the problems that didn't magically vanish when signing him will do just that when he's cut.

No, I really DON'T like being right; I feel like I've spent three solid years tied to a railroad track waiting and hoping for a rescue I knew would never come. Next to people telling me I was a traitorous idiot for feeling that way and saying they'd rebrand their erstwhile savior a senile career choker when the freight train arrived to put us all out of our misery. Fun...? :confused:

No one has brought up you being right or wrong, yet you keep posting about being right. Stop already. No one cares if you were wrong or right, that has never been their issue with you, it's always been delivery. The only one bringing up you being wrong or right is you because without saying I've been right this whole time, you're saying I've been right this whole time.

[silkamilkamonico]

Just glad I was wrong about the fanbase melting down when the QB expected to singlehandedly win MULTIPLE SBs won NONE. Congrats to everyone for accepting reality with such grace and proving me wrong.


Instead the fanbase is just bagging on a guy that did nothing but represent the Denver organization with class, grace, and everything possible except 1 thing 99% of QB's never get.

[Buff]

I just don't get the logic in this statement and others re: Brock. Of course he hasn't . He hasn't played!

As also mentioned, I don't think Manning allows his backup to play. At all. If he can stand up, he's going to play. What is concerning is Manning seems to control the coaching staff.

It's been 3 years, Joe - if he could play maybe he would have flashed in the preseason or made us take notice of something. The fact that our starting QB couldn't run or throw and we didn't use the kid in his 3rd year is just about the biggest indictment I can offer.

[Northman]

I'll be just fine, North. Not sure why you are getting personal, but I'll stick with football. I am worried about who takes over and what they can bring to the table. I just hope people are prepared for a team that isn't as successful the next year or more while we get that player in place.

I wasnt getting personal Gem. I was addressing you because you believe that everyone is going to meltdown when Manning is gone. Most of us are being pretty level headed about the entire situation both with Manning and without.

I dont worry about who is taking over because one way or the other its going to happen anyway. Manning cant play forever. The important thing for me is that this organization is in good hands with a guy who cares about winning and i dont believe he will let the fanbase down no matter who the QB is.

[VonDoom]

Sanders, Ward and a bunch of cap-busters near or past 30? That's not a rebuild, it's Win Today Mode. We HAD a (very) few stars when we signed Manning, but now their rookie contracts are ending and we have to PAY them like stars while doing the same with all those pricey FAs who only have a 2-3 good years left. The cap, FA and reality don't allow teams to skip rebuild mode; all we did was postpone it. The only good news is 4-12 seasons and top five draft picks make it easier to draft the franchise All Pros a rebuilding team needs; hard to do that after an 8-8 season going nowhere.

By your definition, though, there really is no "rebuild mode." Unless you think that we would hit on every high draft pick in one year (or maybe two years in a row). Every team has guys in flux - they're aging, they're going to be FA, they're injured, etc. So unless most of your starters come from the same draft class, you will have a mix of young guys and veterans. If Manning leaves now, we have his money to spend on other FA's. We also have the draft coming up to fill holes. Say Ware retires next year - now we have that money available, and yet another draft.

You don't need to sink to 2-14 to "rebuild" your team, but you do have to make your draft picks count, and I don't know if we're great at that yet. The idea that Manning somehow took us away from our future (and included a trip to the Super Bowl, as I like to point out) is wrong.

[Joel]

No one has brought up you being right or wrong, yet you keep posting about being right. Stop already. No one cares if you were wrong or right, that has never been their issue with you, it's always been delivery. The only one bringing up you being wrong or right is you because without saying I've been right this whole time, you're saying I've been right this whole time.
Right, we haven't done a dance for three years with me predicting we'd end here, while everyone called me a traitorous lunatic who knows NOTHING about football except what I've read.

Guess I don't have to worry about my disloyal insanity forfeiting the right to come celebrate after we win, huh?

[Northman]

Ilike how everyone insinuates they are so confident with John Elway, just like they were that he would bring us a SuperBowl when we signed Manning.

Oops


You mean the guy that helped us get back to the SB in just 2 years? That guy? Yea, i have total faith in him. Tell us more about how Denver should pack up and move to LA. I need a good laugh today.

[silkamilkamonico]

You don't need to sink to 2-14 to "rebuild" your team, but you do have to make your draft picks count, and I don't know if we're great at that yet. The idea that Manning somehow took us away from our future (and included a trip to the Super Bowl, as I like to point out) is wrong.

Elway has been terrible in the draft so a rebuilding mode scares me. I don't think Denver will get that fair because he can fair well enough in free agency to avoid that.

[MOtorboat]

Right, we haven't done a dance for three years with me predicting we'd end here, while everyone called me a traitorous lunatic who knows NOTHING about football except what I've read.

Guess I don't have to worry about my disloyal insanity forfeiting the right to come celebrate after we win, huh?

You sure are going to celebrate when "we" lose, though, aren't you.

[Northman]

Right, we haven't done a dance for three years with me predicting we'd end here, while everyone called me a traitorous lunatic who knows NOTHING about football except what I've read.

Guess I don't have to worry about my disloyal insanity forfeiting the right to come celebrate after we win, huh?

Joel, just stop with the pity party already.

[BroncoWave]

Elway's last year - and I'm mentioning that assuming this was Peyton's last year, or maybe next year - he was held out of practice at least one day each week, giving Bubby time to work with the first stringers. Manning would NEVER let that happen based on reports from training camp and practices.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that the Colts went 2-14 the year he was out, after a 10-6 year. The next they went 11-5. Granted, Painter was GOD-Awful, but was it because he was just awful or because he got zero reps and/or help from Manning? I'd guess he was bad, but even Tebow won more than 2 games.

If Manning really is going to be that stubborn, he has to go then. He's not in a position anymore to be bigger than the team.

[VonDoom]

Just glad I was wrong about the fanbase melting down when the QB expected to singlehandedly win MULTIPLE SBs won NONE. Congrats to everyone for accepting reality with such grace and proving me wrong.

Anyone "expecting" "multiple" Super Bowl victories under any circumstances is delusional. My expectation of Manning coming here is that he would make us relevant and give us the opportunity to be in the postseason on a regular basis. And let's see what's happened ...

[GEM]

I wasnt getting personal Gem. I was addressing you because you believe that everyone is going to meltdown when Manning is gone. Most of us are being pretty level headed about the entire situation both with Manning and without.

I dont worry about who is taking over because one way or the other its going to happen anyway. Manning cant play forever. The important thing for me is that this organization is in good hands with a guy who cares about winning and i dont believe he will let the fanbase down no matter who the QB is.

I hope you are right. I wish there had been a Plan B. :laugh:

[weazel]

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 5m

Peyton Manning initially tore his right quad Dec. 14 in win over Chargers, per sources. MRI back in Denver confirmed tear.

sounds like it happened on the play when he went to the locker room.

[BroncoJoe]

It's been 3 years, Joe - if he could play maybe he would have flashed in the preseason or made us take notice of something. The fact that our starting QB couldn't run or throw and we didn't use the kid in his 3rd year is just about the biggest indictment I can offer.

That can't be used against Brock.

I'm not a huge fan of his, so don't get me wrong. I just think it's a bit premature (OK - A LOT premature) to say he has no skills and the Broncos will fall to 8-8 at best with him at the helm. I just don't see it.

RE: preseason and showing flashes - it's pretty clear this team doesn't have a lot of depth, especially on offense. He never had the opportunity to play with the first stringers.

[TXBRONC]

I just don't get the logic in this statement and others re: Brock. Of course he hasn't . He hasn't played!

As also mentioned, I don't think Manning allows his backup to play. At all. If he can stand up, he's going to play. What is concerning is Manning seems to control the coaching staff.

Dang Joe how can you not get this. Osweiler is suppose show it on the sideline with warm up throws and extremely limited mop up duty where he was asked to basically hand the ball off or kneel down.

[silkamilkamonico]

You mean the guy that helped us get back to the SB in just 2 years? That guy? Yea, i have total faith in him. Tell us more about how Denver should pack up and move to LA. I need a good laugh today.

ANd then didn't fire the head coach who self admittingly confessed that he failed miserably in preparing the team for the biggest game of the majority of their lives? The writing on the wall for this season occurred when that failed to happen.

If you want a good laugh, then just go here........http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm

[VonDoom]

Elway has been terrible in the draft so a rebuilding mode scares me. I don't think Denver will get that fair because he can fair well enough in free agency to avoid that.

Right, and that's basically what I was getting at. If we don't have the Manning security blanket anymore, those draft picks will have to hit more often and become bigger parts of the team. But as long as the money is available, Elway will be aggressive in pursuing free agents, as he's shown so far.

[GEM]

Right, we haven't done a dance for three years with me predicting we'd end here, while everyone called me a traitorous lunatic who knows NOTHING about football except what I've read.

Guess I don't have to worry about my disloyal insanity forfeiting the right to come celebrate after we win, huh?

No, but I question if you were happy we lost.

[OB]

Right, we haven't done a dance for three years with me predicting we'd end here, while everyone called me a traitorous lunatic who knows NOTHING about football except what I've read.

Guess I don't have to worry about my disloyal insanity forfeiting the right to come celebrate after we win, huh?

We are still a better all around team than we were 3 years ago - Peyton didnt HURT us - he just didnt get the one thing we were all hoping for - the SB WIN - we have been contenders all 3 years

Not sure we could have done that with Baby Jesus aka Tebow or Brock

[BroncoJoe]

Elway has been terrible in the draft so a rebuilding mode scares me. I don't think Denver will get that fair because he can fair well enough in free agency to avoid that.

Hogwash.

[Northman]

It baffles me that people write off a guy who has barely seen the field. Omazing.

[BroncoJoe]

Dang Joel how can you not get this. Osweiler is suppose show it on the sideline with warm up throws and extremely limited mop up duty where he was asked to basically hand the ball off or kneel down.

Don't call me Joel.

[OB]

Joel, just stop with the pity party already.

It's not a pity party - its a HEY LOOK AT ME I WAS RIGHT party

He needs a smiley that pats itself on the back so instead of his long winded posts he could just post that smiley over and over again

[silkamilkamonico]

Hogwash.

So is his 2nd round drafting. And the majority of the rest of his early round picks.

[OB]

Dang Joel how can you not get this. Osweiler is suppose show it on the sideline with warm up throws and extremely limited mop up duty where he was asked to basically hand the ball off or kneel down.

I think this is a whole other topic for its own thread - but one must ask ones self why when he did get the opportunity to play was he asked/told to hand off the ball and/or kneel down - I would guess a lack of confidence from the coaches who see him play every day

[Bronco9798]

If Manning comes back healthy next year, we win 10-13 games and take the AFC West again with at least a #2 seed.

If we go with Brock next year we go 8-8 or 7-9 and probably miss the playoffs. He's not our answer at QB.

We all know Peyton isn't the long term answer, obviously. Peyton gets healthy, we reload at a few positions, draf well, pick a FA or two and go at it again with Fox and Peyton. To dump this thing and go in a different direction isn't the answer right now. I think Elway is going to give it one more shot. Gase and Del Rio will be gone. You grab a DC and do what you want with OC.

You all need to get prepared for one more run, like it or not. That's my opinion. Elway wants to win. This is his best shot right now.

[Tangerine]

Sanders, Ward and a bunch of cap-busters near or past 30? That's not a rebuild, it's Win Today Mode. We HAD a (very) few stars when we signed Manning, but now their rookie contracts are ending and we have to PAY them like stars while doing the same with all those pricey FAs who only have a 2-3 good years left. The cap, FA and reality don't allow teams to skip rebuild mode; all we did was postpone it. The only good news is 4-12 seasons and top five draft picks make it easier to draft the franchise All Pros a rebuilding team needs; hard to do that after an 8-8 season going nowhere.

What are you talking about, the only older players besides Manning are Ware and Welker. This team has only 5 players of the 53 over 30, and are the 12th youngest team in the league. This isn't like some the Bronco teams in the past were like half the team was over 30.

[Buff]

It baffles me that people write off a guy who has barely seen the field. Omazing.

I'm not writing him off. I hope he can still develop into a starting QB - I'm just saying that there have been really zero indications that he's ready to be the guy. After three years, you'd hope that we would have seen more. But Joe has a point - I don't know to what extent you can hold Brock accountable. It's hard to know how much is skill vs. Peyton's stubbornness.

[tripp]

In lighter note, we may have our RB of the future in CJ. After JT's performance this year, it's really tough to determine whether we sign him or let him walk. I think we might left him walk...

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm not writing him off. I hope he can still develop into a starting QB - I'm just saying that there have been really zero indications that he's ready to be the guy. After three years, you'd hope that we would have seen more. But Joe has a point - I don't know to what extent you can hold Brock accountable. It's hard to know how much is skill vs. Peyton's stubbornness.

People would be stupid to write him off, just like they would be stpid to say they have actually seen something from him when he has played that actually gives them some sort of hope. The guy is a complete unknown, as unknown as you're going to get right now anywehere in the NFL.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

A while back, I posted a tweet from Vic which referenced this article. I did not have time to see if anyone actually posted anything from the article, so here it is.


Peyton Manning strained his right quadricep on Dec. 14 in San Diego, but it never advanced to a more serious injury, according to a team source.

An ESPN report on Monday said Manning tore his right quadriceps in the San Diego game. The team source said Manning played with a strained quad, not a full tear. Manning received treatment on the injury after the Chargers game and was listed on the injury report for the following game against the Bengals. Manning left the Chargers game just prior to halftime following an attempt to block for running back C. J. Anderson.

There are semantics involved as a strain is technically the fraying of muscle fiber. However, a full tear of the quadriceps would leave an athlete sidelined for several weeks. Rockies shortstop Troy Tulowitzki, for instance, missed several months in 2008 with a torn quadriceps.

Manning received treatment on the quad injury for the past several weeks and was forced to miss consecutive practices during the bye week after the season for the first time since joining the Broncos.

The Broncos are expected to discuss Manning's health in a season-ending news conferences with coach John Fox and general manager John Elway later this week.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_27304471/broncos-dispute-report-quarterback-peyton-manning-having-torn-right-quad

[silkamilkamonico]

In lighter note, we may have our RB of the future in CJ. After JT's performance this year, it's really tough to determine whether we sign him or let him walk. I think we might left him walk...


If something didn't happen with the coaching staff, it wouldn't surpise me at all if they put him back to #3 in the depth chart behind sucksBalls and Hillman.

[tripp]

If Manning comes back healthy next year, we win 10-13 games and take the AFC West again with at least a #2 seed.

If we go with Brock next year we go 8-8 or 7-9 and probably miss the playoffs. He's not our answer at QB.

We all know Peyton isn't the long term answer, obviously. Peyton gets healthy, we reload at a few positions, draf well, pick a FA or two and go at it again with Fox and Peyton. To dump this thing and go in a different direction isn't the answer right now. I think Elway is going to give it one more shot. Gase and Del Rio will be gone. You grab a DC and do what you want with OC.

You all need to get prepared for one more run, like it or not. That's my opinion. Elway wants to win. This is his best shot right now.



NOO!!! I don't want to compete for a SB!! :Cry:

[BroncoJoe]

What are you talking about, the only older players besides Manning are Ware and Welker. This team has only 5 players of the 53 over 30, and are the 12th youngest team in the league. This isn't like some the Bronco teams in the past were like half the team was over 30.

Joel doesn't like facts very much.

[Joel]

By your definition, though, there really is no "rebuild mode." Unless you think that we would hit on every high draft pick in one year (or maybe two years in a row). Every team has guys in flux - they're aging, they're going to be FA, they're injured, etc. So unless most of your starters come from the same draft class, you will have a mix of young guys and veterans. If Manning leaves now, we have his money to spend on other FA's. We also have the draft coming up to fill holes. Say Ware retires next year - now we have that money available, and yet another draft.

You don't need to sink to 2-14 to "rebuild" your team, but you do have to make your draft picks count, and I don't know if we're great at that yet. The idea that Manning somehow took us away from our future (and included a trip to the Super Bowl, as I like to point out) is wrong.
Sure there's a rebuild mode—it just takes more than A year. Teams can make draft count by two things, in order:

1) Spending rare and painfully earned top five picks on the best athlete out there while they still have their pick of the whole draft, NOT trying to fill ONE particular need when they have a DOZEN.

2) After a couple years of that gets them to 8-8, spending mediocre draft picks to fill needs they still have around half a dozen young All Pro franchise players, NOT seeking more with no top twenty picks.

Same deal with FAs: Sign young HoFers to long contracts with a dog team, because losers have so many "needs" they can use ANY star, but with a decent team, sign the ones who fill the few remaining holes. That's one of reason I advocate giving any new coach 4+ years to replace the bums that got his predecessor fired and build a quality roster that can play his game. It's just really hard to convince billionaire owners and GMs facing owner, media and fan scrutiny to spend the time and energy required rather than pursuing instant gratification so they oscillate between 6-10 and 10-6 forever.

It's not complicated, it just takes time and patience, not snatching up the first HoF QB who hits the market and expecting him to win a championship alone just 2 years after the team was 4-12.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm not writing him off. I hope he can still develop into a starting QB - I'm just saying that there have been really zero indications that he's ready to be the guy. After three years, you'd hope that we would have seen more. But Joe has a point - I don't know to what extent you can hold Brock accountable. It's hard to know how much is skill vs. Peyton's stubbornness.

Rogers didn't play a lick while backing up Favre. Not saying Oz is Rogers, but you just can't judge anything at this point.

[TXBRONC]

Don't call me Joel.

Sorry about that Joe it was not intended.

[Joel]

What are you talking about, the only older players besides Manning are Ware and Welker. This team has only 5 players of the 53 over 30, and are the 12th youngest team in the league. This isn't like some the Bronco teams in the past were like half the team was over 30.
Talib turns 29 a week from tomorrow (and has had an injury plagued career already.) Knighton will be 29 in July and Clady in September. Vasquez is a whole year younger; he'll only be 28 on Opening Day.

That's just off the top of my head. Put down the orange Kool-Aid, folks; we just saw what that addiction gets us.

[MOtorboat]

Sure there's a rebuild mode—it just takes more than A year. Teams can make draft count by two things, in order:

1) Spending rare and painfully earned top five picks on the best athlete out there while they still have their pick of the whole draft, NOT trying to fill ONE particular need when they have a DOZEN.

2) After a couple years of that gets them to 8-8, spending mediocre draft picks to fill needs they still have around half a dozen young All Pro franchise players, NOT seeking more with no top twenty picks.

Same deal with FAs: Sign young HoFers to long contracts with a dog team, because losers have so many "needs" they can use ANY star, but with a decent team, sign the ones who fill the few remaining holes. That's one of reason I advocate giving any new coach 4+ years to replace the bums that got his predecessor fired and build a quality roster that can play his game. It's just really hard to convince billionaire owners and GMs facing owner, media and fan scrutiny to spend the time and energy required rather than pursuing instant gratification so they oscillate between 6-10 and 10-6 forever.

It's not complicated, it just takes time and patience, not snatching up the first HoF QB who hits the market and expecting him to win a championship alone just 2 years after the team was 4-12.

This was the only HOF quarterback to ever hit the free agency market, so that pretty much nullifies whatever point you were trying to make in this rambling mess.

[OB]

NOO!!! I don't want to compete for a SB!! :Cry:

I have no problem with one more shot at the big one with Peyton BUT we need to also start working on the future - we cant put all of our eggs into the Peyton basket next year - we have to pull a few out to hatch and grow into their own - specifically in the QB position

[GEM]

12th youngest. FFS. Argue anything and everything.

[BroncoJoe]

Talib turns 29 a week from tomorrow (and has had an injury plagued career already.) Knighton will be 29 in July and Clady in September. Vasquez is a whole year younger; he'll only be 28 on Opening Day.

That's just off the top of my head.

Those are all people under 30, unless I forgot how to count.

[GEM]

Those are all people under 30, unless I forgot how to count.

My first thought as well! :laugh:

[tripp]

I have no problem with one more shot at the big one with Peyton BUT we need to also start working on the future - we cant put all of our eggs into the Peyton basket next year - we have to pull a few out to hatch and grow into their own - specifically in the QB position

I agree Oz deserves to have some reps with the 1st team, and if Peyton is hurt, let Brock play that week. At his age, it is a bit silly to let Peyton have all the 1st team reps. I'm sure he'd understand as there is life after him.


Ideal situation is to see how Brock can handle a regular season game but also compete for a SB with Peyton.

[Bronco9798]

I have no problem with one more shot at the big one with Peyton BUT we need to also start working on the future - we cant put all of our eggs into the Peyton basket next year - we have to pull a few out to hatch and grow into their own - specifically in the QB position

Fox and Manning are both coming back. You think Elway is going to admit he made a mistake and start over? Not happening. There won't be a ton of changes, but we're going to see the same nucleus intact next year and make another run at it.

[Buff]

People would be stupid to write him off, just like they would be stpid to say they have actually seen something from him when he has played that actually gives them some sort of hope. The guy is a complete unknown, as unknown as you're going to get right now anywehere in the NFL.

I guess I'm saying that we actually know a little more than we think... Three years and no teammates raving about his performance in practice, no preseason flashes, no opportunities to play when our starter was clearly less than 100%. I personally believe we can infer quite a bit from this. It doesn't mean I'm writing him off, it just means I'm not very optimistic about his future.

Also, probably unfair, but Ryan Mallet's lackluster debut this year also influenced my impression of him.

[MOtorboat]

Those are all people under 30, unless I forgot how to count.

And those are the old people on this team...the cupboard wasn't, isn't and won't be bare. Manning didn't do this on his own. He has nine effing Pro Bowlers around him. This narrative that Joel wants to pimp that Manning was expected to do it by himself is idiotic, at best.

He's trying to prove his stupid point about Manning's salary hurting Denver initially and in the subsequent three years. He's wrong.

[Bronco9798]

I guess I'm saying that we actually know a little more than we think... Three years and no teammates raving about his performance in practice, no preseason flashes, no opportunities to play when our starter was clearly less than 100%. I personally believe we can infer quite a bit from this. It doesn't mean I'm writing him off, it just means I'm not very optimistic about his future.

Also, probably unfair, but Ryan Mallet's lackluster debut this year also influenced my impression of him.

It's ok to write him off, he's not the answer.

[tripp]

God today is depressing, feels like a funeral.

[GEM]

God today is depressing, feels like a funeral.

I hate life with no football, so I agree completely!

[BroncoJoe]

I guess I'm saying that we actually know a little more than we think... Three years and no teammates raving about his performance in practice, no preseason flashes, no opportunities to play when our starter was clearly less than 100%. I personally believe we can infer quite a bit from this. It doesn't mean I'm writing him off, it just means I'm not very optimistic about his future.

Also, probably unfair, but Ryan Mallet's lackluster debut this year also influenced my impression of him.

I think I've accurately rebutted all those concerns.

My biggest concern? 9'er doesn't like him. He hated the Cutler pick while I was sort of excited about it.

[G_Money]

If Oz had Russell Wilson's moxie, he'd get some snaps. He wouldn't have shat himself when Manning had to go to the locker room for 10 minutes. He would make his second string teammates look better, like Manning tends to make first-stringers look better (especially on the OL).

I dunno what Oz's upside is, because no we have not seen him play much. Everybody who practiced with Aaron Rodgers knew he could step in for Favre if he had to, and when he took over they were behind him. The Seahawks had the rookie's back out of the gate. Big Ben's teammates thought quite a bit of him before he had to step in for Tommy M.

As Buff says, there's NOBODY who plays for the Broncos who is all, "OMG, I squee with glee at the idea of going 16 games with Oz as my quarterback. He's sooooooo dreamy..."

Maybe he can improve with more reps. Maybe he's Drew Bledsoe in waiting. But every time he's given a moment, that moment is too big for him. Whether it's preseason or a couple of regular season snaps doesn't seem to matter.

I don't trust him. And if the Broncos DID trust him, you'd think he'd play a bit more when Manning is tearing muscles and putting up a puke-tastic performance against the Rams.

[Northman]

I'm not writing him off. I hope he can still develop into a starting QB - I'm just saying that there have been really zero indications that he's ready to be the guy. After three years, you'd hope that we would have seen more. But Joe has a point - I don't know to what extent you can hold Brock accountable. It's hard to know how much is skill vs. Peyton's stubbornness.

Well, the way i see this is it would be hard for any QB backing Manning up to give any indication on what they can do. Throw in Peyton's stubbornness as well as he is a HOF QB so its not like any backup is going to see much time anyway while he is still playing. Chances are we should of seen Brock for at least a couple of games this year going by the information we are getting regarding Peyton's injury. But whether that was Peyton not wanting to sit or a call from above i dont know. But, until we see Brock in some games i really cant make a determination based on nothing. Sometimes you have to wait and see, no one saw Brady coming and he was thrown in at the last minute. Brock may not be the answer but until we see him play i just scratch my head at the argument laid out that he isnt the guy right now.

[TXBRONC]

Fox and Manning are both coming back. You think Elway is going to admit he made a mistake and start over? Not happening. There won't be a ton of changes, but we're going to see the same nucleus intact next year and make another run at it.

I wouldn't see it as Elway saying he made a mistake if those changes were to take place.

[Northman]

I guess I'm saying that we actually know a little more than we think... Three years and no teammates raving about his performance in practice, no preseason flashes, no opportunities to play when our starter was clearly less than 100%. I personally believe we can infer quite a bit from this. It doesn't mean I'm writing him off, it just means I'm not very optimistic about his future.

Also, probably unfair, but Ryan Mallet's lackluster debut this year also influenced my impression of him.

To be fair, i dont recall any players rambling about Rodgers while backing up Favre. Just saying.

[Bronco9798]

I wouldn't see it as Elway saying he made a mistake if those changes were to take place.

I think Elway sticks with what he has right now. He signed a bunch of Free Agents on Defense last year. He's been retooling and building it each year. He has an ego. He wants this to work. He's going to give it another shot, with Peyton and Fox intact. He don't want to fail with this project. He's going to see it through for at least another season. I just don't see him doing anything else. He wants his plan to work. There will be no wholesale changes this year.

[Dreadnought]

~G, at the risk of sounding all fanboi-ish on you, its a pleasure to be reading your reasoned non-hysterical posts on a Black Day like this. There are times that you alone double the football IQ on this board. Just sayin'

[Northman]

~G, at the risk of sounding all fanboi-ish on you, its a pleasure to be reading your reasoned non-hysterical posts on a Black Day like this. There are times that you alone double the football IQ on this board. Just sayin'

Well, not with his last post.

[Buff]

To be fair, i dont recall any players rambling about Rodgers while backing up Favre. Just saying.

I think there was a clear belief within their organization that Rodgers had earned his chance. That's why they held so firm on not letting Favre come back out of retirement and rejoin the team.

Wouldn't that be something if Elway goes all Ted Thompson on Manning and tells him that we're moving on even if Manning wants to play another year? You think Manning would pull a Brett and go play for the Jets?

[Timmy!]

I figured something like this would come out today. You could tell Peyton was hurt.

[Northman]

I think there was a clear belief within their organization that Rodgers had earned his chance. That's why they held so firm on not letting Favre come back out of retirement and rejoin the team.

Wouldn't that be something if Elway goes all Ted Thompson on Manning and tells him that we're moving on even if Manning wants to play another year? You think Manning would pull a Brett and go play for the Jets?

No, but he might go play for the Niners. lmao

[OB]

I think Elway sticks with what he has right now. He signed a bunch of Free Agents on Defense last year. He's been retooling and building it each year. He has an ego. He wants this to work. He's going to give it another shot, with Peyton and Fox intact. He don't want to fail with this project. He's going to see it through for at least another season. I just don't see him doing anything else. He wants his plan to work. There will be no wholesale changes this year.

What if Peyton decides he's done?

[Bronco9798]

What if Peyton decides he's done?

I don't think he's done. Him and Elway will have a chat. I think Elway persuades him to come back and make another run at it. A few moves will be made. They'll re-sign who they can and go forward. I just don't think Elway is going to give up on this current team.

[BroncoWave]

I think there was a clear belief within their organization that Rodgers had earned his chance. That's why they held so firm on not letting Favre come back out of retirement and rejoin the team.

Wouldn't that be something if Elway goes all Ted Thompson on Manning and tells him that we're moving on even if Manning wants to play another year? You think Manning would pull a Brett and go play for the Jets?

I think Manning would retire. He's already said Denver is his last stop and he doesn't want to start over with another team.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think if Manning is 100% healthy he can still be a top 5 QB, but the problem is the risk involved with hoping he's 100% healthy for 16+ games. He just doesn't have the arm strength to be very effective at less than 100%.

[OB]

I don't think he's done. Him and Elway will have a chat. I think Elway persuades him to come back and make another run at it. A few moves will be made. They'll re-sign who they can and go forward. I just don't think Elway is going to give up on this current team.

I was just wondering "what if" because there is a possibility - where do we go next year if Peyton says see ya

[G_Money]

~G, at the risk of sounding all fanboi-ish on you, its a pleasure to be reading your reasoned non-hysterical posts on a Black Day like this. There are times that you alone double the football IQ on this board. Just sayin'

LOL any thoughts of ritual seppuku were entertained yesterday. Today I'm fine with moving ahead. I didn't expect to beat New England anyway, so it's not like my expectations of a title were shattered. I just want to see good football with a chance to get hot at the right time. We just haven't gotten hot later in the year. Reminds me of the end of Shanny's run that way. Start a year 6-1, end it 9-7 and out in the first round. At least we haven't sunk there yet, and we still have quite a bit of talent on this team. Nobody dig us a grave for 2015-2016 just yet.

We can bury 2014, then dig it up, kick the corpse and hit it with a shovel a few more times though, I suppose. It's probably cathartic. :)

~G

[NightTerror218]

The tear may explain a little. But manning has been in funk longer than that. I do not give him a buy. He starting to make bad decsions and forcing stuff (Bengals game). He just is not the same and I think he realized that and that is why he was non committal to next season after the game.

[NightTrainLayne]

If Oz had Russell Wilson's moxie, he'd get some snaps. He wouldn't have shat himself when Manning had to go to the locker room for 10 minutes. He would make his second string teammates look better, like Manning tends to make first-stringers look better (especially on the OL).

I dunno what Oz's upside is, because no we have not seen him play much. Everybody who practiced with Aaron Rodgers knew he could step in for Favre if he had to, and when he took over they were behind him. The Seahawks had the rookie's back out of the gate. Big Ben's teammates thought quite a bit of him before he had to step in for Tommy M.

As Buff says, there's NOBODY who plays for the Broncos who is all, "OMG, I squee with glee at the idea of going 16 games with Oz as my quarterback. He's sooooooo dreamy..."

Maybe he can improve with more reps. Maybe he's Drew Bledsoe in waiting. But every time he's given a moment, that moment is too big for him. Whether it's preseason or a couple of regular season snaps doesn't seem to matter.

I don't trust him. And if the Broncos DID trust him, you'd think he'd play a bit more when Manning is tearing muscles and putting up a puke-tastic performance against the Rams.

Damn man. . . now I'm REALLY depressed. :(

[Bronco9798]

I was just wondering "what if" because there is a possibility - where do we go next year if Peyton says see ya

7-9, 8-8. The FA market is horrible at QB. Elway knows that. You're not going to make a trade for a good veteran QB. There are no options, but OZ. Again, 7-9 8-8. Just a wasted season. With Manning you get an AFC West Title and 10-12 wins and another shot. That's all you have. There really is no other "good" option at QB.

[OB]

I think this is why I am so more depressed after this loss than the SB - after the SB i KNEW we had at least one more year to get 'er done - I dont feel that this time - I felt like that window was slammed shut last night - I just hope the nails arent being hammered in yet :/

[BroncoJoe]

If Oz had Russell Wilson's moxie, he'd get some snaps. He wouldn't have shat himself when Manning had to go to the locker room for 10 minutes. He would make his second string teammates look better, like Manning tends to make first-stringers look better (especially on the OL).

I dunno what Oz's upside is, because no we have not seen him play much. Everybody who practiced with Aaron Rodgers knew he could step in for Favre if he had to, and when he took over they were behind him. The Seahawks had the rookie's back out of the gate. Big Ben's teammates thought quite a bit of him before he had to step in for Tommy M.

As Buff says, there's NOBODY who plays for the Broncos who is all, "OMG, I squee with glee at the idea of going 16 games with Oz as my quarterback. He's sooooooo dreamy..."

Maybe he can improve with more reps. Maybe he's Drew Bledsoe in waiting. But every time he's given a moment, that moment is too big for him. Whether it's preseason or a couple of regular season snaps doesn't seem to matter.

I don't trust him. And if the Broncos DID trust him, you'd think he'd play a bit more when Manning is tearing muscles and putting up a puke-tastic performance against the Rams.

No one knows. All I know is Wilson wasn't behind a HOF QB like Manning. Wilson was given every opportunity to take the job from day one. That wasn't, or isn't going to happen with Manning on the roster.

Again - I'm not singing the praises of Brock. I just want to see for myself, and the fact that he's still on the roster as a "solid" #2 behind one of the greatest ever to play says, well, something. If he was that bad, he'd be gone, or they'd be bringing in someone else to compete for the #2 spot if they had doubts.

At some point we have to trust those in the position to make the decision.

[Northman]

With Manning you get an AFC West Title and 10-12 wins and another shot.

Well, thats not a given. Especially with his play right now and next year wont get any easier schedule wise.

[Bronco9798]

Well, thats not a given. Especially with his play right now and next year wont get any easier schedule wise.

Nothing is a given. Just my opinion. I think Peyton can still play at a level where we can win games. Your Defense is going to carry you a few games. Peyton will still play good enough to get some wins. It's a team effort. You just don't have to rely on him, by himself, to get you wins. I think as a team, it's still very solid. So yeah, I think you can still win the AFC next year with Peyton at QB.

[G_Money]

No one knows. All I know is Wilson wasn't behind a HOF QB like Manning. Wilson was given every opportunity to take the job from day one. That wasn't, or isn't going to happen with Manning on the roster.

Again - I'm not singing the praises of Brock. I just want to see for myself, and the fact that he's still on the roster as a "solid" #2 behind one of the greatest ever to play says, well, something. If he was that bad, he'd be gone, or they'd be bringing in someone else to compete for the #2 spot if they had doubts.

At some point we have to trust those in the position to make the decision.

See, you are looking at him not playing as having no evidence. I'm looking at him not playing as BEING evidence.

When Manning got injured, Brock did not play one more snap than he was absolutely forced to. And in those snaps he tried to give the game away.

People talk about moving to the run as a way to protect an injured Manning. I thought it was also because if Oz had to step in we were gonna have to win the Tebow Way: on the ground and with defense.

We finally started running because Oz can't get out of trouble the way Manning can (With a quick release and decisive reading of the defense). I'm not looking forward to more Fox-Ball if Oz is our QB.

Perhaps the negative space I'm looking at in Oz's resume is not indicative of his talent - but based on what I saw in college + three years of backup duty and camp/preseason, I'm willing to put my thumb on the scale that it DOES mean something.

Silence can still say a lot. And since the way Manning plays QB has never been successfully duplicated by his backup or really anyone else, I don't think Oz is the sort of understudy to break that mold. Unfortunately.

[Bronco9798]

No one knows. All I know is Wilson wasn't behind a HOF QB like Manning. Wilson was given every opportunity to take the job from day one. That wasn't, or isn't going to happen with Manning on the roster.

Again - I'm not singing the praises of Brock. I just want to see for myself, and the fact that he's still on the roster as a "solid" #2 behind one of the greatest ever to play says, well, something. If he was that bad, he'd be gone, or they'd be bringing in someone else to compete for the #2 spot if they had doubts.

At some point we have to trust those in the position to make the decision.

There's never been a QB behind Peyton that has evolved into anything at all. I think they have all stunk?

[Joel]

This was the only HOF quarterback to ever hit the free agency market, so that pretty much nullifies whatever point you were trying to make in this rambling mess.
Favre says hi; Manning's not even the first HoF QB to hit the FA market this DECADE. The Raiders traded Stabler to Houston, but three years later they released him and he signed with NO as a FA.

Who has trouble with facts again...?


Joel, just stop with the pity party already.
I asked no pity—nor OFFERED any. It's not "they're so mean to poor me," it's "they were as off base as they claimed I was." When people spend three years telling someone he's a lunatic traitor who knows nothing of football but what he's read, they should EXPECT a little "I told ya so" when everything he said would happen over the next three years DOES.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

There's never been a QB behind Peyton that has evolved into anything at all. I think they have all stunk?

I don't think there's ever been a high draft pick behind Manning. So, I think that's sort of an apples and oranges comparison.

[Northman]

See, you are looking at him not playing as having no evidence. I'm looking at him not playing as BEING evidence.

When Manning got injured, Brock did not play one more snap than he was absolutely forced to. And in those snaps he tried to give the game away.

People talk about moving to the run as a way to protect an injured Manning. I thought it was also because if Oz had to step in we were gonna have to win the Tebow Way: on the ground and with defense.

We finally started running because Oz can't get out of trouble the way Manning can (With a quick release and decisive reading of the defense). I'm not looking forward to more Fox-Ball if Oz is our QB.

Perhaps the negative space I'm looking at in Oz's resume is not indicative of his talent - but based on what I saw in college + three years of backup duty and camp/preseason, I'm willing to put my thumb on the scale that it DOES mean something.

Silence can still say a lot. And since the way Manning plays QB has never been successfully duplicated by his backup or really anyone else, I don't think Oz is the sort of understudy to break that mold. Unfortunately.


Rubbish

[BroncoJoe]

Nothing is a given. Just my opinion. I think Peyton can still play at a level where we can win games. Your Defense is going to carry you a few games. Peyton will still play good enough to get some wins. It's a team effort. You just don't have to rely on him, by himself, to get you wins. I think as a team, it's still very solid. So yeah, I think you can still win the AFC next year with Peyton at QB.

I only doubt this when considering there are 16 games. Dude is turning 39 this year. 39.

[Dzone]

Favre says hi; Manning's not even the first HoF QB to hit the FA market this DECADE. The Raiders traded Stabler to Houston, but three years later they released him and he signed with NO as a FA.

Who has trouble with facts again...?

Stabler is in the HOF? Well I'll be damned:coffee:

[BroncoJoe]

See, you are looking at him not playing as having no evidence. I'm looking at him not playing as BEING evidence.

When Manning got injured, Brock did not play one more snap than he was absolutely forced to. And in those snaps he tried to give the game away.

People talk about moving to the run as a way to protect an injured Manning. I thought it was also because if Oz had to step in we were gonna have to win the Tebow Way: on the ground and with defense.

We finally started running because Oz can't get out of trouble the way Manning can (With a quick release and decisive reading of the defense). I'm not looking forward to more Fox-Ball if Oz is our QB.

Perhaps the negative space I'm looking at in Oz's resume is not indicative of his talent - but based on what I saw in college + three years of backup duty and camp/preseason, I'm willing to put my thumb on the scale that it DOES mean something.

Silence can still say a lot. And since the way Manning plays QB has never been successfully duplicated by his backup or really anyone else, I don't think Oz is the sort of understudy to break that mold. Unfortunately.

I just don't see it that way. At all. Which is strange, because I normally agree with you 97.98% of the time.

[Dzone]

Torn quad or not, a team with 9 pro bowlers failed to show up for a playoff game. The whole team stunk, not just Manning. Pathetic.

[Joel]

Stabler is in the HOF? Well I'll be damned:coffee:
I stand corrected, he's not in the Hall—but Warren Moon is, and Seattle signed him as a FA after Minnesota released him; he may still be the best QB Seattle ever had. Blanda came out of RETIREMENT to sign with the Oilers and lead them to the first two AFL Championships. There's probably more if anyone wants to take time to look, but 3>0 either way.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It's been 3 years, Joe - if he could play maybe he would have flashed in the preseason or made us take notice of something. The fact that our starting QB couldn't run or throw and we didn't use the kid in his 3rd year is just about the biggest indictment I can offer.

article written by Mike Klis on 8-17-2014

from article:


Through two games of the 2014 preseason, Osweiler already has led the Broncos' second-team offense on four touchdown drives — two in each game. He has tossed two touchdown passes, including a well-thrown, 33-yard deep strike Sunday to rookie Cody Latimer.

Osweiler finished Sunday's game 10-of-13 for 105 yards and a terrific 125.5 passer rating.

"He had a good day," said Broncos general manager John Elway, whose selection of Osweiler in the second round of the 2012 draft has been his most second-guessed pick. "He's getting better and better. He's getting time. He's done a heck of a job of working it on the board, and then practice, and now he's fundamentally much more sound. Throwing the ball very well and confident. It's just a matter of getting him playing time."


"I've always been impressed with Brock," said Broncos tight end Julius Thomas. "I think he does a really good job with leadership. Sometimes that second group is tough because you have a lot of younger guys, guys getting their first action, and he does a good job of leading them."

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26355910/broncos-backup-qb-brock-osweiler-stars-preseason-rout

[Buff]

Torn quad or not, a team with 9 pro bowlers failed to show up for a playoff game. The whole team stunk, not just Manning. Pathetic.

Do you think they'll still let Talib play in the pro bowl after yesterday? Good lord he got abused.

[NightTrainLayne]

I just don't see it that way. At all. Which is strange, because I normally agree with you 97.98% of the time.

I've always followed the rule that if I am disagreeing with G$, I stop and re-evaluate ALL my assumptions. Especially on football stuff.

[Cugel]

This is pretty reasonable, actually. It might be the best chance we have to go through a "transition year", as we could actually see Oz work with the first teamers and maybe even get some game action, while still having Manning for a real retirement tour. I don't know if he or the team would do this, but I could get on board with it.

Been down that road before. It led to Brian "his arm strength is just as good as Joe Montana" Griese. Even though all of NFL history says "it just isn't going to happen" fans keep insisting that it will. Well it will just be worse. You'll all be shocked at how much worse and for how long it lasts without a ray of light at the end of the tunnel.

And all the fans who are saying "Peyton is washed up" will be changing their tune when they start to feel the suck and it just keeps on sucking one year after another.

And don't tell me they can get it right. I've bought into that lie before with Brian Griese, Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, and Kyle Orton. I bought into every single one of those guys.

I remember defending Brian Griese back in 2001 to people who said "I just don't have any confidence in him." And I was dead WRONG!

Well, I AIN'T buying any more of that B.S. - and it is B.S. people. Andrew Luck or Tom Brady is going to the Super Bowl. That's your AFC Champion. There's a lesson in that. And it isn't "let's find some new QB in the draft and wait 3 years and then find out he was a 2nd round pick for a reason, or else pick some failure up off the FA scrap-heap and hope for the best."

I say you ride that Peyton mule until the sucker dies, because he at least gives you a CHANCE to win a Super Bowl. A chance. That's all.

With Brock Osweiler or his replacement they've got no shot. If you think otherwise you will quickly be disillusioned.

[G_Money]

I just don't see it that way. At all. Which is strange, because I normally agree with you 97.98% of the time.

*grins* I could be wrong, absolutely. Like you said, we're not working with a lot of evidence. But I'm going off:

1) college. Not enamored of Oz, which might be coloring my perceptions. I threw things when we drafted him where we did, IIRC.
2) camp. Holy hell did that guy look lost even last year at camp. "Better" is relative to how he looked as a rookie. "Better" is not "good."
3) Pre-season. Even against backups he looks weak. Yes, he's also playing with OUR backups, but the backups on a Super Bowl team are not the backups on the Jags, y'know?
4) Lack of playing time, even for an injured PM. And this can be attributed to Manning being a giant jerk who will never let Oz see the field even when we're up 4 scores... but I don't think that's the only reason.
5) Silence out of Bronco-land regarding Osweiler, even when it became known that Manning was hurting. No "If Manning can't go we have complete confidence in Oz to get the job done" speech-stumping. Instead, they played down his injury rather than talk up Osweiler.

I dunno man. If he's the best-kept secret in the league, I'll be the happiest guy around because I'm coming from a much more pessimistic perspective on him than you are.

There are Broncos I liked that turned out to be poor players, but rarely have there been players I disliked who turned out to be great ones. I'm a fan of the underdog. Just don't think there's enough fight in that dog, m'man.

If we go away from Peyton, then I hope we bring in real competition for Brock. The problem for me is I don't think it will take a HOFer to beat him out. Hoyer could do it, IMO, and that doesn't make me feel good about the post-Manning years unless we get a much better QB whisperer in here than I believe Gase to be.

[NightTrainLayne]

Do you think they'll still let Talib play in the pro bowl after yesterday? Good lord he got abused.

I can't figure out for the life of me why they didn't put Harris on Hilton.

[Northman]

article written by Mike Klis on 8-17-2014

from article:




full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26355910/broncos-backup-qb-brock-osweiler-stars-preseason-rout

I think i just heard a turtle flush.

[Buff]

Been down that road before. It led to Brian "his arm strength is just as good as Joe Montana" Griese. Even though all of NFL history says "it just isn't going to happen" fans keep insisting that it will. Well it will just be worse. You'll all be shocked at how much worse and for how long it lasts without a ray of light at the end of the tunnel.

And all the fans who are saying "Peyton is washed up" will be changing their tune when they start to feel the suck and it just keeps on sucking one year after another.

And don't tell me they can get it right. I've bought into that lie before with Brian Griese, Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, and Kyle Orton.

I AIN'T buying any more of that B.S. - and it is B.S. people. Andrew Luck or Tom Brady is going to the Super Bowl. That's your AFC Champion. There's a lesson in that. And it isn't "let's find some new QB in the draft and wait 3 years and then find out he was a 2nd round pick for a reason, or else pick some failure up off the FA scrap-heap and hope for the best."

Who is the defending SB winning QB and on the verge of playing for another? A 2nd round pick. Effective QB play is about efficiency. I don't think your overall point is wrong - but I disagree that it's absolutely impossible to find a QB.

[Joel]

Those are all people under 30, unless I forgot how to count.
Yeah—for one more season; good luck splitting those hairs all the way to next years championship. Thanks for the reminder though: Manning won't be 40 next year, "only" 39.

We've got a lot of BENCH youth, but haven't signed any 24-year-old FA Pro Bowlers to START. Sanders may be the youngest of our many marquee FA signings: He turns 28 in March.


No, but I question if you were happy we lost.
Whatever cushions the blow for ya, but no, I didn't stay up till 2AM so I could zombie-shamble over the ice pushing my daughter to kindergarten this morning beause I wanted to see us lose so badly. Fully EXPECTED it, but that made seeing it worse, not better. Just like last years SB. What kind of a masochist do you people think I am, anyway?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think i just heard a turtle flush.

Part of me wants to laugh....but first I need to understand the analogy. :laugh:

Please explain...

[BroncoJoe]

Who is the defending SB winning QB and on the verge of playing for another? A 2nd round pick. Effective QB play is about efficiency. I don't think your overall point is wrong - but I strongly disagree that it's absolutely impossible to find a QB.

fify

cugel is winning the dunce award today.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Part of me wants to laugh....but first I need to understand the analogy. :laugh:

Please explain...

I think it's in regards to the article I just posted - here is link to article
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26355910/broncos-backup-qb-brock-osweiler-stars-preseason-rout

[Cugel]

Who is the defending SB winning QB and on the verge of playing for another? A 2nd round pick. Effective QB play is about efficiency. I don't think your overall point is wrong - but I disagree that it's absolutely impossible to find a QB.

He's a THIRD round pick. And Tony Romo was undrafted. And Tom Brady was a 6th rounder.

So there's been something close to 200+ QBs taken in the draft after #56 of the draft since Tom Brady, or taken as undrafted FAs, and Russell Wilson is the only one who's won a SB or even come close.

It's like arguing with people who insist they're going to win the lotto "somebody has to win and I've got just as good a chance as anybody else!"

You're not going to win the lotto. You just aren't. :coffee:

[OB]

fify

cugel is winning the dunce award today.

And there are lots of people vying for it today

[Northman]

Part of me wants to laugh....but first I need to understand the analogy. :laugh:

Please explain...


Ace Ventura

[VonDoom]

Been down that road before. It led to Brian "his arm strength is just as good as Joe Montana" Griese. Even though all of NFL history says "it just isn't going to happen" fans keep insisting that it will. Well it will just be worse. You'll all be shocked at how much worse and for how long it lasts without a ray of light at the end of the tunnel.

And all the fans who are saying "Peyton is washed up" will be changing their tune when they start to feel the suck and it just keeps on sucking one year after another.

And don't tell me they can get it right. I've bought into that lie before with Brian Griese, Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, and Kyle Orton. I bought into every single one of those guys.

I remember defending Brian Griese back in 2001 to people who said "I just don't have any confidence in him." And I was dead WRONG!

Well, I AIN'T buying any more of that B.S. - and it is B.S. people. Andrew Luck or Tom Brady is going to the Super Bowl. That's your AFC Champion. There's a lesson in that. And it isn't "let's find some new QB in the draft and wait 3 years and then find out he was a 2nd round pick for a reason, or else pick some failure up off the FA scrap-heap and hope for the best."

I say you ride that Peyton mule until the sucker dies, because he at least gives you a CHANCE to win a Super Bowl. A chance. That's all.

With Brock Osweiler or his replacement they've got no shot. If you think otherwise you will quickly be disillusioned.

I'm on record on this board saying that we are in for a rude awakening when Manning retires, so I understand your point. However, that day is coming, whether it's now, one year or two years from now. We'll have to get a QB from SOMEWHERE. I don't know if it's Brock, but I was agreeing with Wave in that if we had more of a chance to see Brock play with the number ones, we'd have a better idea of his progress if next year is Manning's last. I don't think we can trust Manning to play sixteen healthy games, plus playoffs at his age. The odds of us finding another great starter, nevermind GOAT-caliber, is very slim, but we're going to need someone to play the position once Manning isn't here anymore. That will probably come with growing pains, but hopefully not a decade of them.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
It's been 3 years, Joe - if he could play maybe he would have flashed in the preseason or made us take notice of something. The fact that our starting QB couldn't run or throw and we didn't use the kid in his 3rd year is just about the biggest indictment I can offer.
article written by Mike Klis on 8-17-2014

from article:

Through two games of the 2014 preseason, Osweiler already has led the Broncos' second-team offense on four touchdown drives — two in each game. He has tossed two touchdown passes, including a well-thrown, 33-yard deep strike Sunday to rookie Cody Latimer.

Osweiler finished Sunday's game 10-of-13 for 105 yards and a terrific 125.5 passer rating.

"He had a good day," said Broncos general manager John Elway, whose selection of Osweiler in the second round of the 2012 draft has been his most second-guessed pick. "He's getting better and better. He's getting time. He's done a heck of a job of working it on the board, and then practice, and now he's fundamentally much more sound. Throwing the ball very well and confident. It's just a matter of getting him playing time."
"I've always been impressed with Brock," said Broncos tight end Julius Thomas. "I think he does a really good job with leadership. Sometimes that second group is tough because you have a lot of younger guys, guys getting their first action, and he does a good job of leading them."
full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...preseason-rout

Sadly, I could point to similar stuff said about a LOT of QB failures, including Brian Griese who Shanahan famously defended insisted had "just as strong an arm as Joe Montana." Except Griese sucked and Joe Montana didn't obviously.

All this proves is that Elway still believes in Osweiler. Well, duh! He picked him and he's been fantastically loyal to his draft picks so far.

I wouldn't hold your breath anticipating that Brock Osweiler is ever going to hoist the Lombardi Trophy. Obviously, I will be thrilled to be proven wrong. But, I flat do not believe at all that I will be.

[BroncoWave]

Do you think they'll still let Talib play in the pro bowl after yesterday? Good lord he got abused.

How we never switched Harris onto Hilton boggles my mind.

[GEM]

I just don't see it that way. At all. Which is strange, because I normally agree with you 97.98% of the time.

See bolded part. Niner says hi! :laugh: Nice one, Joe! :d

[Bronco9798]

Niner says hi! :laugh:

Huh?

[BroncoJoe]

See bolded part. Niner says hi! :laugh: Nice one, Joe! :d


Huh?

I used 97.98 on purpose. Not necessarily in reference to you (although you and I agree on a lot of things that % of the time), but to those SB teams. :)

[Bronco9798]

I got it!!!

[Cugel]

I'm on record on this board saying that we are in for a rude awakening when Manning retires, so I understand your point. However, that day is coming, whether it's now, one year or two years from now. We'll have to get a QB from SOMEWHERE. I don't know if it's Brock, but I was agreeing with Wave in that if we had more of a chance to see Brock play with the number ones, we'd have a better idea of his progress if next year is Manning's last. I don't think we can trust Manning to play sixteen healthy games, plus playoffs at his age. The odds of us finding another great starter, nevermind GOAT-caliber, is very slim, but we're going to need someone to play the position once Manning isn't here anymore. That will probably come with growing pains, but hopefully not a decade of them.

OK, I can accept this point. I don't think you're going to get your chance, because Elway doesn't care if the fans are OK with his choices, he likes Osweiler and he's going to give him a chance - but unless Peyton comes out and retires he may very well finish out his contract as he promised.

Immediately after a disappointing loss, Peyton is unsure if he'll be back. But, he's so insanely competitive that I seriously doubt he wants to ride off under a cloud. I think he gets up, dusts himself off, reviews the tape and tries to figure out how to adjust to his diminishing skills. And I think Elway is realist enough to give him another chance.

If next season turns out to be more like Muhammad Ali at the end of his career getting beat by Trevor Burbick, then I think Elway will show him the door at the end of 2015 and hand the baton to Brock.

But, I doubt it will happen next season. And if Manning plays a bit better than he did, he may very well be back for the 2016 season, like he said he wants to, whether the fans like that or not.

[Joel]

The draft's always a long shot lottery at virtually every position, but the odds go from "steep" to "need a miracle" quickly after the first 2-3 rounds, especially at premium positions, and NO position is at more of a premium than QB. One of the online places did a ten year overview of starting QBs around 2011, and it was pretty stark: The only starters drafted after the 2nd were Schaub and Brady (with Romo undrafted.) Finding a legit franchise QB was about as likely at the bottom AND top of the 1st round, and there were a few in the 2nd, but after that... an overflowing career graveyard.

The problem with Oz isn't that we picked him 57th overall (though he'd be statistically more than twice as likely to pan out as even the 32nd overall pick.) The problem is dual threat QBs usually need lots of work to become competent pro passers and Oz hasn't even had a PRACTICE first team snap since 2011. For good or ill, Manning overprepares too much for that.

[BroncoJoe]

OK, I can accept this point. I don't think you're going to get your chance, because Elway doesn't care if the fans are OK with his choices, he likes Osweiler and he's going to give him a chance - unless Peyton comes out and retires, he may very well finish out his contract as he promised.

Immediately after a disappointing loss, Peyton is unsure if he'll be back. But, he's so insanely competitive that I seriously doubt he wants to ride off under a cloud. I think he gets up, dusts himself off, reviews the tape and tries to figure out how to adjust to his diminishing skills. And I think Elway is realist enough to give him another chance.

If next season turns out to be more like Muhammad Ali at the end of his career getting beat by Trevor Burbick, then I think Elway will show him the door at the end of 2015 and hand the baton to Brock.

But, I doubt it will happen next season. And if Manning plays a bit better than he did, he may very well be back for the 2016 season, like he said he wants to, whether the fans like that or not.

I thought you've insisted Brock will get a massive contract somewhere else.

[GEM]

Yeah—for one more season; good luck splitting those hairs all the way to next years championship. Thanks for the reminder though: Manning won't be 40 next year, "only" 39.

We've got a lot of BENCH youth, but haven't signed any 24-year-old FA Pro Bowlers to START. Sanders may be the youngest of our many marquis FA signings: He turns 28 in March.


Whatever cushions the blow for ya, but no, I didn't stay up till 2AM so I could zombie-shamble over the ice pushing my daughter to kindergarten this morning beause I wanted to see us lose so badly. Fully EXPECTED it, but that made seeing it worse, not better. Just like last years SB. What kind of a masochist do you people think I am, anyway?

You don't want me to answer that. :laugh:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Sadly, I could point to similar stuff said about a LOT of QB failures, including Brian Griese who Shanahan famously defended insisted had "just as strong an arm as Joe Montana." Except Griese sucked and Joe Montana didn't obviously.

All this proves is that Elway still believes in Osweiler. Well, duh! He picked him and he's been fantastically loyal to his draft picks so far.

I wouldn't hold your breath anticipating that Brock Osweiler is ever going to hoist the Lombardi Trophy. Obviously, I will be thrilled to be proven wrong. But, I flat do not believe at all that I will be.

As I read all of the posts, I posted that because of statements that Brock has never shown anything in preseason games, and no Bronco player has given him praise. The article I posted proved those statements very wrong. Also, people seem to be forgetting that Elway watched OZ in college many times, as Elway's kid was also a QB at AZ. And remember, OZ came out of college in his junior year, and was drafted the same year as Manning was signed. It's not like Elway threw a dart at a draft board, and the dart landed on OZ's name.

[G_Money]

If John goes with Oz after this many years, then it's because he believes Brock has a chance to be really good, and he expects him to be average at worst. When he drafted him, it's because he believed in his potential. 3 years later, it's not about potential it's about what you've seen from the kid.

I don't expect John to have his homer glasses on for that, or to try to prove anything about the pick.

I also don't expect him to go with Oz.

[wayninja]

I agree that we currently don't have a lot of great alternatives to Manning, but if we can expect the same play from him we've seen in the last half of the season for next season, we have to roll the dice.

Future HoF'er or not, we won't win 12 games next season with Manning playing like he did yesterday. Maybe it's his injury and he can get back, but how is your confidence?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The Denver Broncos used their second-round pick—at No. 57 overall—on ex-Arizona State quarterback Brock Osweiler.

Osweiler declared for the NFL draft a year early, surprising many, but the early entry proved to be the right choice.

Osweiler joins an organization with Peyton Manning and John Elway as the focal leaders. He will thrive because he isn't expected to play anytime soon.

When the time comes to start, he will be ready.

Here are five reasons why Osweiler will succeed with the Broncos.

rest - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1166731-nfl-draft-2012-5-reasons-brock-osweiler-will-succeed-with-the-denver-broncos

[Bronco9798]

We're watching the news wire closely, but right now it's mostly speculation and rumor. The Denver Post reports there were no discussions about firing Fox heading into this game. However, there is a different storyline brewing: friction between Fox and John Elway causing Fox to walk out the door, or perhaps, a desire by Fox to call it a career.

http://www.milehighreport.com/horse_tracks/2015/1/12/7531355/peyton-manning-broncos-2015-retirement-john-fox-fired-rumors

How reliable is that place?

[Joel]

You don't want me to answer that. :laugh:
Like I say, different people cope with loss different ways; whatever works for you, so long as it's legal. ;) Sometimes I feel like masochism's a prerequisite for being a Broncos fan.... :(

[Bronco9798]

Jason La Canfora ✔ @JasonLaCanfora
Follow
Plenty of people around the NFL talking about friction b/n John Fox and John Elway. If Fox does depart, would Adam Gase be the new HC there?

[OB]

Questions: If Manning has had this injury for 6-8 weeks - should he not have been benched once we clinched a playoff spot? That i don't understand

[tomjonesrocks]

Jason La Canfora ✔ @JasonLaCanfora Follow Plenty of people around the NFL talking about friction b/n John Fox and John Elway. If Fox does depart, would Adam Gase be the new HC there?

PFT refuted this. But it's not hard to imagine.

[Joel]

Jason La Canfora ✔ @JasonLaCanfora
Follow
Plenty of people around the NFL talking about friction b/n John Fox and John Elway. If Fox does depart, would Adam Gase be the new HC there?
How many times do I have to say I'm NOT a masochist?! Elway went to Stanford; he's smarter than THAT.

[tomjonesrocks]

Questions: If Manning has had this injury for 6-8 weeks - should he not have been benched once we clinched a playoff spot? That i don't understand

That's what I have trouble with. That he had an injury confirmed isn't a surprise.

But Oz should have played. It might have helped Manning be better yesterday if he had. But sounds like management of the injury was all around incompetent.

[LawDog]

Yes. The team will be fined, you can count on that.


Vegas should reimburse the team then...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Questions: If Manning has had this injury for 6-8 weeks - should he not have been benched once we clinched a playoff spot? That i don't understand

Since we lost to Cincinnati, the game against the Raiders was - if we win, we would have a first round bye, if we lose, no first round bye. Also, the injury came against the Chargers on 12-14.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vegas should reimburse the team then...

from article posted this morning:


An ESPN report on Monday said Manning tore his right quadriceps in the San Diego game. The team source said Manning played with a strained quad, not a full tear. Manning received treatment on the injury after the Chargers game and was listed on the injury report for the next game against the Bengals. Manning left the Chargers game just before halftime after an attempt to block for running back C. J. Anderson.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_27304471/broncos-dispute-report-quarterback-peyton-manning-having-torn-right-quad

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 3h

On Manning/#Broncos reporting injury. Was listed with a thigh injury on every injury report following Dec. 14 game -- severity not required

[Joel]

Yeah, Manning stayed in for the same reason Brady stayed in till they clinched home field, which wasn't before we lost our penultimate game. Before that, we could still have finished anywhere from #1 to #4 seed, so Manning kept fighting every bit as hard as one would expect from a first ballot HoFer. Really pathetic how many people are yet again dropping another team-wide breakdown entirely on Manning. All the same people were his loudest cheering section when he was shattering all those season records; my, how just one year can change everything so radically (and I DON'T mean his playing ability.)

[Joel]

from article posted this morning:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_27304471/broncos-dispute-report-quarterback-peyton-manning-having-torn-right-quad
Will never forget that play: Goal line run right, and the whole front seven was in our backfield at the snap, as usual, so CJ did a 180° and came left, where Manning threw the best block on the play, and the refs signalled TD, but reversed it when replay showed his kneed down at the 1" line. Our elite line that's so good our former SB Champ All Pro guard's crazy to suggest firing them did such a fine job their QUARTERBACK had to do it FOR them, got badly hurt doing it, and that may have ended the season even though we played five more desultory games before making if official.

None of them need replacing though; all Mannings fault. Just like when a straight four man rush overpowered our five great linemen throughout the SB. If Elway wants Manning back he BETTER sort that out, because he ought to remember no QB wants to hobble through the last two months of a season behind a line thinner than the posters he used to run through before HS games.

[BroncoWave]

As I read all of the posts, I posted that because of statements that Brock has never shown anything in preseason games, and no Bronco player has given him praise. The article I posted proved those statements very wrong. Also, people seem to be forgetting that Elway watched OZ in college many times, as Elway's kid was also a QB at AZ. And remember, OZ came out of college in his junior year, and was drafted the same year as Manning was signed. It's not like Elway threw a dart at a draft board, and the dart landed on OZ's name.


Since we lost to Cincinnati, the game against the Raiders was - if we win, we would have a first round bye, if we lose, no first round bye. Also, the injury came against the Chargers on 12-14.

IMO, Manning's health is more important than the first round bye. As we saw yesterday, that bye is irrelevant if Manning can't play effectively. I would have rather fallen to the 3 or 4 seed but had a healthy Manning. I think that would have helped our title odds.

[NightTrainLayne]

IMO, Manning's health is more important than the first round bye. As we saw yesterday, that bye is irrelevant if Manning can't play effectively. I would have rather fallen to the 3 or 4 seed but had a healthy Manning. I think that would have helped our title odds.

I don't know. I think the rest of the team needed that bye pretty badly.

[BroncoWave]

I don't know. I think the rest of the team needed that bye pretty badly.

Fair enough, but without a healthy Manning I just don't think we had a prayer regardless of the seed. I'd rather he be healthy and at 100% and take my chances with any other players being banged up.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Here's what Peyton Manning should do:

Write that hand-written, thank-you letter he so genuinely does from his heart instead of his iPad upon the retirements of all those fellow NFL greats who played the game the right way during Manning's 17-year, slam-dunk, first-ballot Hall of Fame career.

Then, take that "Dear Peyton'' letter, seal it in an envelope and tuck it away in a drawer to be re-read two months from now.

AND


This isn't a decision Manning needs to make in a hurry. He put so much into his grueling comeback and daily rehabilitation since undergoing four neck surgical procedures he is owed the benefit of time.

Manning owes it to himself to make sure he's ready either to move on to the next chapter or shred that letter.

Manning isn't a Brett Favre flip-flopper. Write that letter, tuck it away, then read it two months from now.

And if he feels good enough that his 39-year-old body can withstand one more run at a Super Bowl ring, then shred that letter and get back to Duke to get after it the way he always does

There's no shame in walking away. There is in doing it too soon.

full article - http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/01/12/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-retirement-decision/21619871/

[wayninja]

Yeah, Manning stayed in for the same reason Brady stayed in till they clinched home field, which wasn't before we lost our penultimate game. Before that, we could still have finished anywhere from #1 to #4 seed, so Manning kept fighting every bit as hard as one would expect from a first ballot HoFer. Really pathetic how many people are yet again dropping another team-wide breakdown entirely on Manning. All the same people were his loudest cheering section when he was shattering all those season records; my, how just one year can change everything so radically (and I DON'T mean his playing ability.)

A team-wide breakdown? We held one of the best offenses in the NFL to 24 points, I'd say our defense did better than I expected given the lack of pass-rush.

CJ anderson was flat out ballin'. Other than DT dropping some silly-easy bubble screen passes, where was the team-wide breakdown?

No, we lost this game because we couldn't even get first downs, let alone points. 13 points at home is flat out ridiculous.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

A team-wide breakdown? We held one of the best offenses in the NFL to 24 points, I'd say our defense did better than I expected given the lack of pass-rush.

CJ anderson was flat out ballin'. Other than DT dropping some silly-easy bubble screen passes, where was the team-wide breakdown?

No, we lost this game because we couldn't even get first downs, let alone points. 13 points at home is flat out ridiculous.

Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about how bad the D was. Our offense went 3 quarters without a drive of more than 25 yards. Our D did a great job of keeping the Colts within striking distance. Our poor D had to be exausted.

[OB]

Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about how bad the D was. Our offense went 3 quarters without a drive of more than 25 yards. Our D did a great job of keeping the Colts within striking distance. Our poor D had to be exausted.

I kind of think the same thing - everyone dissing our D and I thought they did a decent job last night - had our offense done ANYTHING (besides go 3 and out) I dont think anyone would be complaining about the D today

When they were playing lackluster it was from the play calling and Del Rio refusing to blitz, IMHO

[Hawgdriver]

I'd wouldn't mind seeing Manning get another go at it with a new staff. But then, Manning is so entrenched in Manning-ball, I wonder if it even matters. This last game has the feeling of falling off a cliff, but I hope that's just normal fan overreaction on my part. My gut says it's not. It's not just an injury, it's that the team was beleaguered by an ossified athlete clinging stubbornly to his greatness to yield to what was best for the team.

On the whole, I think Manning the control freak hurts more than helps, and I don't like that the staff has allowed and encouraged this.

He's proven his merit time and again, but seeing these multi-season symptoms of lack of coaching leadership and vision are troubling, and I don't know how a new staff improves the overall make-up and identity of the team with Manning in place. Weird to complain about a 12-5 season, but it felt so panicky and wrong the whole time, and the final result was kind of a clear measurement of what the team was. How frail Plan A really is.

Maybe if he's healthy it's a different story, so I don't mind rolling the injury dice the same way in 2015. My expectations are far reduced.

[Northman]

IMO, Manning's health is more important than the first round bye. As we saw yesterday, that bye is irrelevant if Manning can't play effectively. I would have rather fallen to the 3 or 4 seed but had a healthy Manning. I think that would have helped our title odds.

^This

As admirable as it was for him to play through the injury he basically gave up the endgame for short term success. I would rather have a healthy Manning and be forced to go on the road than be one and done in the playoffs at home because he wasnt 100% and playing like ass.

[MOtorboat]

A team-wide breakdown? We held one of the best offenses in the NFL to 24 points, I'd say our defense did better than I expected given the lack of pass-rush.

CJ anderson was flat out ballin'. Other than DT dropping some silly-easy bubble screen passes, where was the team-wide breakdown?

No, we lost this game because we couldn't even get first downs, let alone points. 13 points at home is flat out ridiculous.

Joel's new theory is that Peyton Manning didn't have any help. Admitting that there's talent that played well in any fashion yesterday would completely nullify said theory.

[wayninja]

Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about how bad the D was. Our offense went 3 quarters without a drive of more than 25 yards. Our D did a great job of keeping the Colts within striking distance. Our poor D had to be exausted.

It's hard to tell if you are agreeing with me or if this is directed at me. I definitely did not blame the D.

[TXBRONC]

It's hard to tell if you are agreeing with me or if this is directed at me. I definitely did not blame the D.

I think he's in agreement with you as am I.

[tomjonesrocks]

IAOFM has a post from a supposed doctor that basically predicts the injury will be career-ending.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/peyton-mannings-injury-likely-from-overuse-will-be-hard-to-overcome

[Joel]

A team-wide breakdown? We held one of the best offenses in the NFL to 24 points, I'd say our defense did better than I expected given the lack of pass-rush.

CJ anderson was flat out ballin'. Other than DT dropping some silly-easy bubble screen passes, where was the team-wide breakdown?

No, we lost this game because we couldn't even get first downs, let alone points. 13 points at home is flat out ridiculous.
Our D did better than expected given the lack of pass rush? From a first ballot HoFer opposite a former DRoY against a line nearly as bad as ours? That's like saying, "I'd say the plane landed pretty safely given the crash." Indy was only one of the best offenses before Bradshaw broke his leg; for nearly two months they've been a one-man one-dimensional offense with NO line and NO run game, just Luck scrambling around flinging balls to guys our TREE Pro Bowl DBs and excellent rookie should've handled easilly; they did Opening Day!

The D played better than the offense, but not much, and only at the start and end of the game. CJ was working his tail off and overperforming incredibly behind a typically inconsistent line that made him break TWO backfield tackles on that huge 4th and short run, then a THIRD to convert. They were on him at the snap; looked like the front seven knew where we were running before our line did. The same line that gave up the blindside strip-sack on Manning early in the game, on the possession just after he threw a deep arcing sideline pass over JTs shoulder, hitting him in stride to set up 1st and G.

TEAM fail; Only CJ and Marshall showed up, but most of the rest have been here >3 yrs and won't probably be gone next year: Let's throw the expendable rental under the bus; he's used to it.

[ShaneFalco]

i like manning. but what a selfish *******.

If your hurt, you sit, you let the backup qb be a backup qb. otherwise no point in having any on roster.

[tomjonesrocks]

i like manning. but what a selfish *******. If your hurt, you sit, you let the backup qb be a backup qb. otherwise no point in having any on roster.

If Manning hadn't played again after the injury, how much worse off would we have been?

Probably would have gotten to see a little of Oz and would be reloading for one last go instead of rebuilding for an unknown period.

It is kind of Favre-esque.

[Joel]

If Manning hadn't played again after the injury, how much worse off would we have been?
Remember what happened when Oz took over? He made a wild throw nearly intercepted, then immediately followed it with a wild throw to no one but the D and got flagged for grounding. That was just TWO PLAYS; imagine two more QUARTERS like that. With no guarantee Manning would be any healthier the following week, or the next; could've ended up like the Cards, going from the drivers seat for #1 seed to hoping to get through wildcard weekend with our scrub QB so the REAL QB had time to (hopefully) get healthy for the divisional round.


IProbably would have gotten to see a little of Oz and would be reloading for one last go instead of rebuilding for an unknown period.
We saw some Oz. Main thing we may have seen is that without Mannings quick pre-snap reads, audibles and quick release our stellar line that TOTALLY doesn't need firing en masse will have our QB under heavy pressure every down, either throwing wild or going down in a heap, and can't bail us out with Tebow-style running and D because it can't keep our RBs from getting hit FOUR TIMES on a 1 yd run that would've been -2 if he hadn't broken a pair of tackles.

Maybe there's a reason Manning tore his quad, just like he finished last years first SD game with tape on BOTH ankles, and took a day off practice every week from then until... what time is it now? Maybe there's a reason we can't keep >50% of our RBs healthy enough to play through the end of ANY season? All starts up front—or NEVER.

[ShaneFalco]

it doesnt matter. Whats the difference, were one and done. having oz play and not getting the game at home. Would have made 0 difference.

having oz play at 100% is better then having Manning go 20/40 for 150 yards at 50%.

Manning was completely selfish to do this. Why do we even have a backup qb if they are never allowed to play when the starter is hurt? Why even have one? Makes 0 sense to me. This isnt micheal jordan playing with the Flu....

[wayninja]

Our D did better than expected given the lack of pass rush? From a first ballot HoFer opposite a former DRoY against a line nearly as bad as ours? That's like saying, "I'd say the plane landed pretty safely given the crash." Indy was only one of the best offenses before Bradshaw broke his leg; for nearly two months they've been a one-man one-dimensional offense with NO line and NO run game, just Luck scrambling around flinging balls to guys our TREE Pro Bowl DBs and excellent rookie should've handled easilly; they did Opening Day!

They didn't handle Andrew Luck easily opening day. That's just absurd. The defense performed about as well then as they did this time. They did their jobs. The offense didn't do theirs. It's that simple. Luck isn't one dimensional. He can throw, he can run, and he can throw on the run. 2 of those things our QB flat out can't do, and the other he was terrible at yesterday.

Von was double teamed most of the day, I'm not sure what the other guys problems were, but we couldn't get consistent pressure. But I'm not sure that's much different than the last few games. It's not ideal, and I don't think our pass rush get's an A, but I'm not ready to say that they had a total meltdown. Only 1 person on the broncos that I saw had a total meltdown.


The D played better than the offense, but not much, and only at the start and end of the game.

The D played as well as we could have expected. They held Luck to the exact same performance as in week 1. We won in week 1, on the road. They weren't fantastic, but neither did they shit the bed.


CJ was working his tail off and overperforming incredibly behind a typically inconsistent line that made him break TWO backfield tackles on that huge 4th and short run, then a THIRD to convert. They were on him at the snap; looked like the front seven knew where we were running before our line did. The same line that gave up the blindside strip-sack on Manning early in the game, on the possession just after he threw a deep arcing sideline pass over JTs shoulder, hitting him in stride to set up 1st and G.

So, we agree. CJ was playing very well, and the line made some mistakes. I still don't see how that equates to a total team breakdown. Again, there was 1 person on the field that was clearly playing worse than everyone else.


TEAM fail; Only CJ and Marshall showed up, but most of the rest have been here >3 yrs and won't probably be gone next year: Let's throw the expendable rental under the bus; he's used to it.

I'm not sure exactly what your issue is, but Manning played like shit. Injury, cold weather, fox distraction, playoff game...whatever it was, it was one of his worst playoff games ever. If you can't see that, I'm not sure what to tell you. Week 1 the score is 31 to 24 on the road. Divsional playoff round the score is 13 to 24 at home. Go ahead and blame everyone else if you must, but they all played better than manning.

[mouthofsouth]

Color me cynical, but I'm not sure I believe it. Why wasn't this disclosed? Other QB's playing through injuries had their ailments announced, and it's not like in a playoff game you need extra motivation to go after the opposing quarterback. Just seems extremely convenient to me.

Well, how do YOU explain that through most of November Manning was on target, completing 70% per cent of his passes, 300 plus yards every game, and 3 or 4 TDs and all of a sudden he fell off a cliff and could not complete passes? No one ages THAT quickly!

[Simple Jaded]

it doesnt matter. Whats the difference, were one and done. having oz play and not getting the game at home. Would have made 0 difference.

having oz play at 100% is better then having Manning go 20/40 for 150 yards at 50%.

Manning was completely selfish to do this. Why do we even have a backup qb if they are never allowed to play when the starter is hurt? Why even have one? Makes 0 sense to me. This isnt micheal jordan playing with the Flu....
If he doesn't play hurt he has just as many critics jumping on the fact that he's too old and/or not man enough to play during the playoff stretch run. And I think his teammates would completely disagree with you as well.

You have a backup QB in case the starter can't play, clearly Manning could play.

This is stupid.

[ShaneFalco]

clearly he could play? in what game?

i didnt see a QB that could play on Sunday.

[Simple Jaded]

IAOFM has a post from a supposed doctor that basically predicts the injury will be career-ending.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/peyton-mannings-injury-likely-from-overuse-will-be-hard-to-overcome

Wow, kind of ****** up if the last memory of his career is his home fans booing him off the field.

[wayninja]

Well, how do YOU explain that through most of November Manning was on target, completing 70% per cent of his passes, 300 plus yards every game, and 3 or 4 TDs and all of a sudden he fell off a cliff and could not complete passes? No one ages THAT quickly!

Why doesn't someone age that quickly? I'm not saying it has to be answer, but I am saying that dismissing it is a bit silly. After multiple neck surgeries, and the inevitable march of time, there comes a point where your body simply can't do what your brain expects it to be able to do. You don't have to be off by all that much to go from Record breaking to getting booed off the field.

How much of it was this injury? I don't know. I'm simply saying that the sudden inflation of the injury is a bit convenient. That's all. It doesn't make it false, it just makes it questionable, and that's all I'm doing.

[pnbronco]

Well, how do YOU explain that through most of November Manning was on target, completing 70% per cent of his passes, 300 plus yards every game, and 3 or 4 TDs and all of a sudden he fell off a cliff and could not complete passes? No one ages THAT quickly!

Exactly.....plus the injury came when he was up all night with the flu. Lack of sleep, dehydration....I just know how much more something can get me when something else is wrong. Plus after that type of flu I'm lucky if I could make downstairs to watch the game. I makes a difference to me. The leg that got hurt is his planting leg. I heard yesterday from Stink, it's the one you use for throwing....again that matter to me. What every happens I only wish him the very best. He brought back excitement to this town and United Us in way that had been gone for a long time.

[VonDoom]

Greg Bedard has an interesting look at Manning up at MMQB today. Now Bedard hates Manning, so I'm surprised to see him give Manning the benefit of the doubt and not just say that he's finished. That actually makes me think he has more credence with this article:



I watched all 735 passing plays—drop-backs, sacks, scrambles and penalties—Manning was involved in during the past season. Much has been made of reports that Manning played the past month with a severe quad injury. That’s certainly evident from when he came up limping in the Dec. 14 game against the Chargers. But I think Manning was injured prior to that game, possibly as far back as the Oct. 23 home game against San Diego. That would mesh with Jay Glazer’s report that Manning had injuries to both quads, a partial tear in one and a deep bruise in the other.

From what I saw, there is a clear line of demarcation between Manning’s play before and after that first matchup with the Chargers. He played exceedingly well up to that game. I can actually pinpoint the first play I noticed something was wrong. It was a simple out on first down to Demaryius Thomas with 2:31 remaining in the third quarter. Manning faked a handoff, got to the top of his drop, stepped up a little in the pocket, and then awkwardly fired a 14-yard pass (in the air) to his left that wasn’t even close to Thomas. To be fair, Ronnie Hillman had mistakenly (judging by the post-play tongue lashing Manning gave him) run a route and drew a defender into Manning’s path, so he was probably being safe with the errant pass. But it wasn’t the inaccuracy that caught my eye (Manning has a few of those each game); it was his mechanics.

My issue with this would be ... if an injury truly occurred as early as October, how come it wasn't reported? I know what Glazer said the other day about both legs being hurt, but that was the first time anyone had mentioned it. I don't know. It does give me some hope that he can recover in the offseason and give it another go next time around, probably for the last time.

The rest: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/14/peyton-manning-retire-injuries/