Did The O-Line Suck? These numbers would disagree.

[OrangeHoof]

Interesting graph in this preview of the Ravens-Steelers game was a comparison of o-lines and pass protection.

According to this, the Broncos led the NFL in % of pass plays without a QB pressure. Only 17.57% of the time did a defender harrass our quarterback. The link will take you to the rest of the chart which I can't seem to isolate and post here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24924824/ravens-steelers-preview-five-stats-to-know-about-the-wild-card-matchup

Granted, we ran a lot of WR screens which should reduce that percentage but, still, just 12 sacks allowed and 24 hits over a 16-game season is not a bad average. That comes to .75 of a sack per game and 1.5 hits on Manning who we all know has little escapability.

[TXBRONC]

Interesting graph in this preview of the Ravens-Steelers game was a comparison of o-lines and pass protection.

According to this, the Broncos led the NFL in % of pass plays without a QB pressure. Only 17.57% of the time did a defender harrass our quarterback. The link will take you to the rest of the chart which I can't seem to isolate and post here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24924824/ravens-steelers-preview-five-stats-to-know-about-the-wild-card-matchup

Granted, we ran a lot of WR screens which should reduce that percentage but, still, just 12 sacks allowed and 24 hits over a 16-game season is not a bad average. That comes to .75 of a sack per game and 1.5 hits on Manning who we all know has little escapability.

True, Denver does run a lot wide receiver screens but Manning also throws the ball deep on a routine basis. I don't have exact number I would not be surprised if Manning to find Manning is throwing the ball deep two or three time per quarter.

[Tebowtime2011]

Film don't lie. Broncos o line struggles badly against good competition.

[DenBronx]

Joel? Care to comment?

[7DnBrnc53]

Joel? Care to comment?

What happened to him? Has he been working a lot more or something?

[Northman]

Interesting graph in this preview of the Ravens-Steelers game was a comparison of o-lines and pass protection.

According to this, the Broncos led the NFL in % of pass plays without a QB pressure. Only 17.57% of the time did a defender harrass our quarterback. The link will take you to the rest of the chart which I can't seem to isolate and post here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24924824/ravens-steelers-preview-five-stats-to-know-about-the-wild-card-matchup

Granted, we ran a lot of WR screens which should reduce that percentage but, still, just 12 sacks allowed and 24 hits over a 16-game season is not a bad average. That comes to .75 of a sack per game and 1.5 hits on Manning who we all know has little escapability.


I agree with this, been saying it all year. NFL.com actually has our Oline ranked first in the league. The difference has been with the RB's.

[Northman]

Film don't lie. Broncos o line struggles badly against good competition.

You mean they have some bad moments or bad games? Yep. All the teams in the NFL do.

[Nomad]

You mean they have some bad moments or bad games? Yep. All the teams in the NFL do.

That's what I mentioned in another thread. Sure the oline has their bad moments. On Sunday (watching 5 games at the same time) and previous Sundays before, Ive watched other teams oline break down, but the key is the QBs would help themselves out by scrambling, stepping up, or somehow avoiding the pressure and making plays. For what Peyton Manning is, I think this oline has done a damn good job. Peyton needs a true FB, and move around.

[Nomad]

BTW.....congrats to C.J. Anderson for getting offensive player of the week. Without this oline....it wouldn't be possible.

[TXBRONC]

Film don't lie. Broncos o line struggles badly against good competition.

I looked at the film and I would I say overall they didn't struggle badly against good competition.

[TXBRONC]

You mean they have some bad moments or bad games? Yep. All the teams in the NFL do.

Nail meet hammer.

[underrated29]

I like the stats but what I have seen the Oline does tell a different story.


Manning, the ultimate technician as we know it did not suddenly forget his mechanics. Its been seen, said by us, and said by NFL network and pretty much everyone else who has watched the broncos. Mannings footwork as of late has been pretty bad. He is throwing off his back foot quite a bit. His errant throws are a direct result of this too.


So either, the master technician and HOF QB who has had near flawless fundamentals his entire career has forgotten his trade or the Oline is not performing up to its task.


Similar to the defense I bet. Top 3 defense or something but like 16th in scoring. Yards dont matter. Score does. Stats can be very misleading.

[silkamilkamonico]

Interesting.

Is the coaching staff overreacting for the second time?

They went and changed the oline because of 1 game last year in which Fox admittingly stated numerous of times that he did not have the team properly prepared for. Failed to prepare his team for the biggest game of the year last year, and decides to make changes on the oline.

So now did they go and change the offense again because of the Rams game this year?

Thank god our defense has been stellar, because our offense IMHO has been fools gold.

[Ziggy]

Those numbers don't take into account Manning's lightning quick release and reads. Put Brock back there for the season and those numbers look completely different. Smoke and Mirrors.

[Northman]

I like the stats but what I have seen the Oline does tell a different story.


Manning, the ultimate technician as we know it did not suddenly forget his mechanics. Its been seen, said by us, and said by NFL network and pretty much everyone else who has watched the broncos. Mannings footwork as of late has been pretty bad. He is throwing off his back foot quite a bit. His errant throws are a direct result of this too.


So either, the master technician and HOF QB who has had near flawless fundamentals his entire career has forgotten his trade or the Oline is not performing up to its task.


Similar to the defense I bet. Top 3 defense or something but like 16th in scoring. Yards dont matter. Score does. Stats can be very misleading.


Those numbers don't take into account Manning's lightning quick release and reads. Put Brock back there for the season and those numbers look completely different. Smoke and Mirrors.

I think its a combination of many things including what was pointed out above. But, i wouldnt say that it only falls on Manning being Manning. The Oline has poor moments (as any team will) but its not utter crap as some people would lead us to believe.

[Nomad]

I think its a combination of many things including what was pointed out above. But, i wouldnt say that it only falls on Manning being Manning. The Oline has poor moments (as any team will) but its not utter crap as some people would lead us to believe.

I'd say Father Time has caught up with Manning. Again, show me an oline that is flawless in the NFL. Some are better than others, but the QB has to help himself too.

[underrated29]

I think its a combination of many things including what was pointed out above. But, i wouldnt say that it only falls on Manning being Manning. The Oline has poor moments (as any team will) but its not utter crap as some people would lead us to believe.



Agreed. I do think the Oline is pretty darn bad.

[Nomad]

Agreed. I do think the Oline is pretty darn bad.

C.J. Anderson doesn't think so

[BroncoWave]

Interesting stats. Makes you wonder if more of the struggles in the passing game are on Manning than we even thought.

[Northman]

I have seen Peyton have plenty of time in the pocket and flat out throw to the wrong defender. There is blame to go around when shit starts to fall apart. But, injuries play a factor, a RB who is not using the lanes and his vision properly, and sometimes the defender just flat out gets the best of the lineman. But overall the Oline has done a pretty good job despite the adversity they face with injuries and such. Its up to the coaching staff to prepare and set them up with added protection and adjust when things start to fall apart. Unfortunately im not really sure we have the coaching staff that can utilize that aspect all that well.

[RunYouOver]

I don't think the O-Line sucked this season, I just think they were average. Good moments, very bad moments and for the most part, aided by a smart QB who will get rid of the ball extremely quickly.

I will say that if we're going to win it all, we're not going to be able to settle for average out of our O-Line. We don't need the line to be great to win in the playoffs, but we need them to at least be good.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm not sure that you can really rely on QB pressures and sacks as an indicator of O-line performance with Manning as the QB. He gets rid of the ball so quickly the majority of the time, that even if someone whiffs on a block, the defender can't get there before Manning has unloaded the ball.

[underrated29]

I'm not sure that you can really rely on QB pressures and sacks as an indicator of O-line performance with Manning as the QB. He gets rid of the ball so quickly the majority of the time, that even if someone whiffs on a block, the defender can't get there before Manning has unloaded the ball.



Pretty much. When the Oline has been publicly called out (schlareth), re-worked several times, and then added an extra OL and Blocking TE to get things going, plus- the entire world saying we need to draft OL as our biggest need, I think it is safe to say the OL is much worse then just the defense getting the better of it or the guys occasionally playing bad, etc. Hasnt mannings OL on all his teams been one of the best with pressures and sacks? I think so.

[Nomad]

This oline has done better for Manning this year than the last 2 years in regards to sack total. Immobility plays a huge factor. I'd put any other of the elite QBs behind this oline, and there wouldn't be as much criticism.
http://www.nfl.com/player/peytonmanning/2501863/careerstats

[OrangeHoof]

Pretty much. When the Oline has been publicly called out (schlareth), re-worked several times, and then added an extra OL and Blocking TE to get things going, plus- the entire world saying we need to draft OL as our biggest need, I think it is safe to say the OL is much worse then just the defense getting the better of it or the guys occasionally playing bad, etc. Hasnt mannings OL on all his teams been one of the best with pressures and sacks? I think so.

I would be fine with drafting a good RT next spring. It was horrific watching Cornick on the edge. Manning is a precisionist and I honestly think he's hiding some issue with his arm/hands/nerves that gets worse in the cold so he compensates with safer passes but doesn't seem to notice when the DBs sit on the routes. I'll bet deep down he's dissatisfied with his own performance this year.

I think if we get him to the Super Bowl, he'll play great with adequate protection but getting him through the playoffs will be the big question.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I can only really think of a few games where the Oline was really dominated (passing wise). The Rams and Bengals games really displayed some weaknesses but we were in the Cincy game until late in the 4th quarter.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'd say the struggles with Manning comes down to the coaching staff completely taking the offense away from him more than anything. They've talked extensively on the drive about how he's turned into basically a 1 read QB. No more reading the defense and then taking his play. It's now reading the defense and if his route isn't there he audibles into a run like he's told.

[BroncoJoe]

I'd say the struggles with Manning comes down to the coaching staff completely taking the offense away from him more than anything. They've talked extensively on the drive about how he's turned into basically a 1 read QB. No more reading the defense and then taking his play. It's now reading the defense and if his route isn't there he audibles into a run like he's told.

If true, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I can't imagine them taking away his greatest strength.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think some of it has merit. Not sure if it all does, and it certainoly shouldn't be an excuse for Manning. Manning is a rythm passer and they have completely taken that away with the calls and scheme they are putting in each week. Some don't think Manning particularly likes the offense but he is trying to do whats best for the team and has admitted he has "struggled a little with the new scheme".

[Northman]

If true, that may be one of the greatest flaws ive ever heard about Manning. As Nomad pointed out a while back a QB, especially a great one like Peyton should excel even more with a running attack without losing rhythm and accuracy. I just cant imagine a QB who actually regresses when they have the benefit of a running attack.

[slim]

Of course they sucked. You don't make wholesale changes to your Oline if they are playing well.

[silkamilkamonico]

If true, that may be one of the greatest flaws ive ever heard about Manning. As Nomad pointed out a while back a QB, especially a great one like Peyton should excel even more with a running attack without losing rhythm and accuracy. I just cant imagine a QB who actually regresses when they have the benefit of a running attack.

It's a flaw of a player if they take his greatest strength away from him?

It isn't like this is Manning's offense and they inserted a running game that will benefit his offense even more.

[underrated29]

Jets game we seriously struggled for a long while. Didnt the chefs first game also limit us pretty darn well, when montee ball was running for 5ypc?




As for what silk just said, I could see it. I think Gase has really done a bad job up until 3 plays right before halftime of the bengals game. I also think that he has seen the error of his ways. Still, that is pretty bad if what he said is the case. No OC should ever make a guy like peyton become a 1 read Qb like Tebow.

[Buff]

I think some of it has merit. Not sure if it all does, and it certainoly shouldn't be an excuse for Manning. Manning is a rythm passer and they have completely taken that away with the calls and scheme they are putting in each week. Some don't think Manning particularly likes the offense but he is trying to do whats best for the team and has admitted he has "struggled a little with the new scheme".


Jets game we seriously struggled for a long while. Didnt the chefs first game also limit us pretty darn well, when montee ball was running for 5ypc?




As for what silk just said, I could see it. I think Gase has really done a bad job up until 3 plays right before halftime of the bengals game. I also think that he has seen the error of his ways. Still, that is pretty bad if what he said is the case. No OC should ever make a guy like peyton become a 1 read Qb like Tebow.

To me it feels like we basically have two separate and distinct offenses. It's not like we added a complementary run game - we have to remove our passing personnel from the field in order to make our run game effective. So all of the route combinations that have made Manning the QB he is over the years aren't as effective from a two TE/6 OL front.

The most frustrating part of this is that we are still a predictable offense despite adding another dimension... Teams know what we're trying to do based on our personnel and we don't really have a solution. We aren't able to punish teams and exploit mismatches at the rate we've grown accustomed to because we have to overcompensate for our deficient o-line.

[NightTrainLayne]

To me it feels like we basically have two separate and distinct offenses. It's not like we added a complementary run game - we have to remove our passing personnel from the field in order to make our run game effective. So all of the route combinations that have made Manning the QB he is over the years aren't as effective from a two TE/6 OL front.

The most frustrating part of this is that we are still a predictable offense despite adding another dimension... Teams know what we're trying to do based on our personnel and we don't really have a solution. We aren't able to punish teams and exploit mismatches at the rate we've grown accustomed to because we have to overcompensate for our deficient o-line.

Pat Kirwin on Sirius/XM has been saying the same thing floor several weeks. He's made the comment numerous times that it seems like Denver has a run-game coordinator and a passing-game coordinator, and the two aren't exactly working together yet.

[Buff]

Pat Kirwin on Sirius/XM has been saying the same thing floor several weeks. He's made the comment numerous times that it seems like Denver has a run-game coordinator and a passing-game coordinator, and the two aren't exactly working together yet.

And honestly - perhaps I'm being unfair - I think this has John Fox's fingerprints all over it. I just have a hard time believing that this is all the work of Adam Gase - it feels more like he's being pulled between his offense and the offense that John Fox wants him to run somewhat haphazardly.

[NightTrainLayne]

And honestly - perhaps I'm being unfair - I think this has John Fox's fingerprints all over it. I just have a hard time believing that this is all the work of Adam Gase - it feels more like he's being pulled between his offense and the offense that John Fox wants him to run somewhat haphazardly.

Although I'm committing sacrilege by saying this, I think the front office shares equally in the blame. The o-line they were given can't effectively run and pass block.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The point of play calling and offenses is disguise and misdirection. Few teams can just line up in a base formation on offense and consistently beat any defense. It's not just the formations. If we can only run in a heavy set and only pass effectively from the shotgun, those are execution problems that are being covered by coaching adjustments. Great job by all the coaches if that's the case. I think it has a huge amount to do with JTs inability to block anyone. Our base formation is 3WRs, a TE, and a RB. If that TE is JT, the run game is ineffective therefore forcing us to use extra Oline or Green or both. With JT off the field, the passing game is less effective.

The real issue I see is that we telegraph our plays too damned much. I can tell what we are doing from my couch before we line up. We only EVER stack WRs if it's a bubble screen. We only EVER run the extra OLineman set if we are gonna run. We need to do more out of the various formations so we aren't so predictable. We need to use play action more. It's been extremely effective when we use it which seems to be very rare.

[underrated29]

The real issue I see is that we telegraph our plays too damned much. I can tell what we are doing from my couch before we line up. We only EVER stack WRs if it's a bubble screen. We only EVER run the extra OLineman set if we are gonna run. We need to do more out of the various formations so we aren't so predictable. We need to use play action more. It's been extremely effective when we use it which seems to be very rare.



THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

I cannot tell you how accurate this is. Whats worse is when we bubble screen it is on 2nd down with 7-9 yards to go or 3rd down with 6-8 yards to go. 1st down is always a run. When we motion the TE across and then line up in the backfield it is a pull guard run designed to go between the T and the G....EVERYTIME! Not most of the time. Every.Single.Time.



That said- and I have bitched about it all season long. I do really believe Gase found the magic with the last 3 plays in the bengals game at halftime. I think we will no longer be predictable and will score 40+ from here on out!

[Buff]

The point of play calling and offenses is disguise and misdirection. Few teams can just line up in a base formation on offense and consistently beat any defense. It's not just the formations. If we can only run in a heavy set and only pass effectively from the shotgun, those are execution problems that are being covered by coaching adjustments. Great job by all the coaches if that's the case. I think it has a huge amount to do with JTs inability to block anyone. Our base formation is 3WRs, a TE, and a RB. If that TE is JT, the run game is ineffective therefore forcing us to use extra Oline or Green or both. With JT off the field, the passing game is less effective.

The real issue I see is that we telegraph our plays too damned much. I can tell what we are doing from my couch before we line up. We only EVER stack WRs if it's a bubble screen. We only EVER run the extra OLineman set if we are gonna run. We need to do more out of the various formations so we aren't so predictable. We need to use play action more. It's been extremely effective when we use it which seems to be very rare.

I mostly agree with everything here - the issue IS that we're telegraphing our plays. But I don't think you can simultaneously give the coaches credit for compensating to overcome our personnel deficiencies and also criticize them for being too predictable. Their coaching adjustments are the root of our predictability. If you are constantly tipping your plays with personnel and formations, then by definition your adjustments aren't that effective. We basically robbed Peter to pay Paul and aren't any more balanced than we were prior to Stl. We utilize the running game more, but if the other team doesn't perceive a dual threat, then we aren't really balanced.

[MOtorboat]

The offensive line had its struggles, but they clearly looked better and more confident with C.J. Anderson in the lineup versus any other back. I don't know why that is, but I thought I'd point it out.

[NightTrainLayne]

I've been ruminating over our predictability these past few weeks.

The coach's HAVE to be aware of it. This is not something that gets missed even on the D2 college level.

So that leaves me with two possible answers for why this is occurring:

1. We don't have any choice. Our personnel just can't execute anything except the predictable sets listed above, and/or the coaching staff just can't get anything else out of them.

Or

2. They are holding back for the playoffs, and leaving any potential teams with a bunch of game tape that doesn't give away anything about what we plan to do later in the playoffs.

I can't really think of another credible answer, and if there is one I'm not thinking of is love to hear it.

Unfortunately, neither of those answers are satisfactory at all. #2 sounds great, but it just feels like wishful thinking. #1 means another quick exit from the playoffs.

I have to really hope for idea #2. In the third quarter in this last game against the Raiders, in the Redzone, once again we lined up with the receivers stacked to DT's side, and it was obviously going to be a bubble screen, and I could even feel the Raiders defense ready to jump the route, which they did, breaking up the pass just as it got to DT. They were jumping it so hard, that if Manning and DT had just quickly pump faked the inside bubble and have DT break back outside there would have been no defenders withing 10 yards of DT when he caught the easy lob fade after the pump fake.

The coaches HAVE to be able to see that. I saw it. I think we have to be holding cards for the playoffs. I just can't believe our staff is that inept.

[spikerman]

That said- and I have bitched about it all season long. I do really believe Gase found the magic with the last 3 plays in the bengals game at halftime. I think we will no longer be predictable and will score 40+ from here on out!
I thought so too, but then the offense inexplicably reverted to what wasn't working. I still don't understand why.

[Simple Jaded]

I coulda swore I heard on local sports talk that Clancy Barone is the running game coordinator, iirc it was on Orlando Franklin's weekly radio show.

[RunYouOver]

I've been ruminating over our predictability these past few weeks.

The coach's HAVE to be aware of it. This is not something that gets missed even on the D2 college level.

So that leaves me with two possible answers for why this is occurring:

1. We don't have any choice. Our personnel just can't execute anything except the predictable sets listed above, and/or the coaching staff just can't get anything else out of them.

Or

2. They are holding back for the playoffs, and leaving any potential teams with a bunch of game tape that doesn't give away anything about what we plan to do later in the playoffs.

I can't really think of another credible answer, and if there is one I'm not thinking of is love to hear it.

Unfortunately, neither of those answers are satisfactory at all. #2 sounds great, but it just feels like wishful thinking. #1 means another quick exit from the playoffs.

I have to really hope for idea #2. In the third quarter in this last game against the Raiders, in the Redzone, once again we lined up with the receivers stacked to DT's side, and it was obviously going to be a bubble screen, and I could even feel the Raiders defense ready to jump the route, which they did, breaking up the pass just as it got to DT. They were jumping it so hard, that if Manning and DT had just quickly pump faked the inside bubble and have DT break back outside there would have been no defenders withing 10 yards of DT when he caught the easy lob fade after the pump fake.

The coaches HAVE to be able to see that. I saw it. I think we have to be holding cards for the playoffs. I just can't believe our staff is that inept.

The second possible reason is the one I think is accurate. It's the only explanation.

It's a ridiculous opinion, but I get the impression that our team and coaching staff knew we were going to be in the playoffs no matter what, and knew we'd win the division no matter what we did. Knowing that, I think our offense in the playoffs will look completely different. We may not even see it in the first playoff game...we might be saving everything we have for the Patriots and the Super Bowl, if we can get there.

It sounds absurd, but the Seahawks knew everything we were going to do last year, and I don't think we have any interest in giving away our gameplan in a big game again. So I'm holding onto hope that we'll see a totally different offense in the playoffs. Either that, or our coaching staff really, really sucks.

[Joel]

Joel? Care to comment?
Since you ask, Ziggy pretty much covered it: Mannings quick reads and releases have made our lines protections stats grossly overrated since the day he arrived, and it's exacerbated by the consensus our previous starting QBs (note the plural) drew a ton of sacks because they flat sucked. It certainly had nothing to do with McDumbass dumping our former starting linemen for his hand-picked stud replacements Walton, Beadles and Franklin. ;) Shopping Cutler behind his back then lying to his face when asked about it privately so he DEMANDED a trade when he saw confirmation in the Post didn't help either.

Stats actually DO lie frequently, especially at positions where the few stats to be found are group composites. But seeing is believing, tape DOESN'T lie and at least as far back as 2010 we've consistently seen a line that routinely lets half the D into our backfield on runs and looks like a dog chasing its tail on passes. There's a reason McGahee led the league in yards AFTER CONTACT before Manning even left Iny, and it's the same reason finished 2010 AND 2011 with our 3rd string RB STARTING. Sure, CJ's been great, and Thompson, too, but: How'd the #3 RB become the starter—for the third time in four years?!

Manning diagnoses defenses almost before called, and gets balls out so fast and precisely rushers often can't reach him even unblocked; that's not a testament to our blocking. His Colts lines (most of which were far better) regularly posted seasons with <20 sacks, but once all the SB starters retired or left in free agency Manning had a career- (and paralysis-) threatening injury resulting in 4 spinal surgeries.

Great protection's not why Manning was hobbling around with BOTH ankles taped for a month after last years SD game in Denver, and winning that game handily didn't vindicate they line that let it happen. Pity they don't protect his body half as well as he protects their rep; we'd probably have twice as many Lombardi Trophies if they did. After all, if we're talking STATS: Manning completed right at 70% of his SB XLVIII passes and was only sacked ONCE, for a single yard, so our pass blocking must've been great—right...?

NO: Seattle chased Manning all over the field for 60 minutes, forced those quick throws before anyone could get open deep, and hurried a few bad ones they intercepted (including a pick-six) and smothered our run game on the few occasions we attempted it while the score was still close enough we could (which was the whole first half, because our defense held on all but one of the four occasions we gave away the ball—it just didn't matter because our line neutered our offense; Seattle didn't "force" Ramirez to snap the ball through the end zone on the first scrimmage play: He volunteered that.)


What happened to him? Has he been working a lot more or something?
One of many nice things about the Nordic Model is a year of federally mandated and PAID maternity leave starting a month before the due date, but even that has a limit, and my wife's paid better than I, so she went back to work last month and I've been on full time Daddy Duty since. The federally guaranteed right to daycare after the first year is nice, too, and that starts on Monday, but we'll see how it goes; I'm not leaving my one-year-old with strangers all day for five days/week after she's had at least one of us at her side constantly her whole life.

Also many folks here (along with my wife) have suggested I'm too invested in a team that more than ever looks like it's going nowhere fast anyway. Last year was one thing: I just had to be ready to go to the hospital at a moments notice at seasons end and walk the sleepless newborn back and forth watching KC epically blow their huge lead on Indy; she did little but sleep and execute bodily functions during the SB, but now that she's active and mobile I'm not missing out on that nor neglecting her just so Fox and our overrated, underperforming and pouty line can break my heart again.

[Joel]

If true, that may be one of the greatest flaws ive ever heard about Manning. As Nomad pointed out a while back a QB, especially a great one like Peyton should excel even more with a running attack without losing rhythm and accuracy. I just cant imagine a QB who actually regresses when they have the benefit of a running attack.
I've wondered a lot about that argument, too; all the talk about how "Manning NEEDS" this, that and/or the other thing to be well: Dude's a first ballot HoFer, but people think he can only perform well in a precise set of very specialized circumstances? Is this Peyton Freakin' Manning or Kyle Faintin' Orton?

It's been all of a week since I listened to Trent Green call a game where he noted "a good running game's the QBs best friend." It would've won us a SB last year, simply because Seattle wouldn't have been free to ignore our impotent run game and double cover EVERYONE while their front four sprinted for Manning without looking over their shoulder in case it was an irrelevant run.

I frankly think all this talk about Manning falling apart if he doesn't have 3+ quarters to find his rhythm (as if it takes elite QBs that long) is just what I expected from the get go: We didn't have a good enough TEAM to win a SB when we signed Manning, ESPECIALLY on the line, but it's easier to blame the hired the gun we used to hate for shelling us out of the playoffs than it is to get past the denial that led to signing him to singlehandedly win a championship in the first place. It's not the lines fault, it's the "Greatest REGULAR Season" chokers.

Meanwhile, that Cowboys team that couldn't even REACH the playoffs with that choker Romo made themselves even more of a laughing stock by spending their first round picks on interior linemen two years running, and suddenly they CLINCHED their division with a week to spare, a week after beating the defending division champ and favorite on the road. It's almost like games are won an lost in the trenches rather than BEHIND them (crazy thought, huh? ;))

[Poet]

I'm glad that you're taking to fatherhood and that the logistics are working out for you.

You are still a horrible fan.

[MOtorboat]

Meanwhile, that Cowboys team that couldn't even REACH the playoffs with that choker Romo made themselves even more of a laughing stock by spending their first round picks on interior linemen two years running, and suddenly they CLINCHED their division with a week to spare, a week after beating the defending division champ and favorite on the road. It's almost like games are won an lost in the trenches rather than BEHIND them (crazy thought, huh? ;))

Because the Broncos missed the playoffs four years running.

Derp.

[DenBronx]

I think our OL has been better but a huge part of me believes that's fools gold. They have some talent there but some guys are not living up to their full potential.

Flame all you want but we should have picked up Richie Incognito. Think he would have helped.

[Simple Jaded]

How long does a dude have to be completely, totally, utterly and in all other ways, wrong about everything before he can no longer say "I knew it all along"?

[Poet]

I had never thought it possible to overstate the value of 'winning in the trenches'. I was wrong.

[Simple Jaded]

I had never thought it possible to overstate the value of 'winning in the trenches'. I was wrong.

My issue with his point of view is that this is a FO that signed Clady to an extension, an All-Pro RG in FA and drafted Franklin in the 2nd round, and all this after he said the Manning signing would make this impossible.

So it's not that the Broncos have been neglecting the OL, it's that they're neglecting to run these moves passed Joel's desk before making them.