Father Time bearing down on Broncos' Peyton Manning

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Hurry, hurry has a whole new meaning now for Peyton Manning. The master of the two-minute drill is facing the toughest race against the clock in football.

For the first time since Manning joined the Broncos in 2012, it was possible to imagine the Broncos without him during a 24-17 victory against Buffalo on Sunday.

The road to the Super Bowl has taken a strange, unexpected twist. Along the way, Denver decided it no longer could be a team that depended too much on Manning.

But here's the real shocker: What if that decision was not a choice? What if it was a necessity? The 38-year-old shoulders of Manning can no longer be counted on to carry Denver.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_27089588/father-time-bearing-down-broncos-peyton-manning

[Dapper Dan]

Well that just sounds depressing

[BroncoWave]

Hmm, this sounds familiar.

[Dapper Dan]

Hmm, this sounds familiar.

She got it from the Denver Post. Maybe you've read it there before?

[BroncoWave]

She got it from the Denver Post. Maybe you've read it there before?

Don't read the post. Live nowhere near Denver and the site has a paywall.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Don't read the post. Live nowhere near Denver and the site has a paywall.

Not sure what you are trying to say. Kizla wrote this article today after the game.

[Simple Jaded]

Not sure what you are trying to say. Kizla wrote this article today after the game.

BTB just started a thread saying the same thing.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

BW is just patting himself on the back for being the first to post a thread (stating what everyone was thinking) questioning Manning's play of late and wondering if it's his last year. Pay him no mind, he thinks he's Nostradamus when really he's just Captain Obvious.

[BroncoWave]

BW is just patting himself on the back for being the first to post a thread (stating what everyone was thinking) questioning Manning's play of late and wondering if it's his last year. Pay him no mind, he thinks he's Nostradamus when really he's just Captain Obvious.

I was told I was crazy by like half the people in that thread.

[NightTrainLayne]

I was told I was crazy by like half the people in that thread.

That's funny. At least half of Broncos fans think Kiszla is crazy too.

[Simple Jaded]

I was told I was crazy by like half the people in that thread.

Well, to be fair you're agreeing with Mark Kizla, that's usually where I start questioning my sanity.

[Nomad]

As HP mentioned in another thread, the bye week was too early and the Rams game really rattled him.

The man needs some rest, and he's not getting that these next 3 tough games

[MOtorboat]

Denver played 3 of the top 5 passing defenses three weeks in a row.

I doubt he's done.

[MOtorboat]

Denver is also 3-0 in those games.

[Northman]

I agree with Kizla.

[capt. Jack]

I heard somewhere else, that after last night's game Peyton's arm fell off, and they taped him back together! :)

The coaches have adjusted the game plan to play tough defenses, That's all , And Peyton is fine and will play out his Contract and win close to 30 more games for us!

[VonDoom]

Manning has been rattled a lot more this year, and I think he's worried about taking a bit hit and sustaining another injury. We were facing a team that led the league by a wide margin in sacks. If I recall, Manning wasn't even pressured once, let alone sacked. Oh, and we won. So let's not write his obituary just yet. On that subject:

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 7h7 hours ago

Peyton Manning averaged 8.65 yards per attempt Sunday. When he hits or surpasses that average, his teams are 71-11.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 7h7 hours ago

.@_24OnMyShirt Definitely seemed out of sync on windy, cold days v. Miami/KC, but he was 3-of-4 on deep balls in placid conditions Sunday.

[BroncoWave]

Denver is also 3-0 in those games.

I see you are back to your "well we're winning games so nothing could possibly be wrong with the team" way of thinking.

[NightTrainLayne]

I see you are back to your "well we're winning games so nothing could possibly be wrong with the team" way of thinking.

I'll take "Putting words in Someone Else's Post" for $1000 Alex.

For crying out loud. Do you ever question why folks think you are argumentative? Mo said nothing of the kind. Your posts on the other hand seem to have a note of "Manning's career is over, WTF are we going to do now?" Mo, (and many other level-headed fans) are simply countering that argument by pointing out that we have played above-average defenses, and still won each of the last three games.

[TXBRONC]

Denver played 3 of the top 5 passing defenses three weeks in a row.

I doubt he's done.

He may not be done but I think his arm is a little tired.

[BroncoJoe]

Even on a bad day, I'll take Peyton over most other QB's in the league.

That said, he has looked off. I kind of doubt it's age, or physical (unless he has the flu or something). I'd also point out that throwing the ball 4-5 times a quarter doesn't help. He needs to be in rhythm with the receivers and get his juices flowing.

Here's hoping it's just a speed-bump and he'll return to his normal self soon.

[TXBRONC]

Even on a bad day, I'll take Peyton over most other QB's in the league.

That said, he has looked off. I kind of doubt it's age, or physical (unless he has the flu or something). I'd also point out that throwing the ball 4-5 times a quarter doesn't help. He needs to be in rhythm with the receivers and get his juices flowing.

Here's hoping it's just a speed-bump and he'll return to his normal self soon.

He also needs Julius Thomas back.

[VonDoom]

Even on a bad day, I'll take Peyton over most other QB's in the league.

That said, he has looked off. I kind of doubt it's age, or physical (unless he has the flu or something). I'd also point out that throwing the ball 4-5 times a quarter doesn't help. He needs to be in rhythm with the receivers and get his juices flowing.

Here's hoping it's just a speed-bump and he'll return to his normal self soon.

I think age is starting to catch up to him for sure. Take a look at Drew Brees this year if you want a see a QB on a sudden decline. I agree about being out of rhythm - one effect of the running game has been to disrupt Manning's timing. This is the same argument we had in reverse a few weeks ago; we couldn't run the ball because we only ran a few times a game and had no rhythm. Now that we're running a lot, we're pounding teams. I'd like to think the coaches can find a balance to the offense that will keep everyone in rhythm at the same time, and make us dangerous when the other team has no idea what's coming. Be interesting to see the SD game this week (should be nice weather, I think, but SD is 9th in total defense, 8th against the pass and 14th against the rush, so it's still no easy pickings)


He also needs Julius Thomas back.

I've been saying this for weeks. Some people here seem to think the run game will suffer with JT back, but I don't see it, at least as of now.

[TXBRONC]

I think age is starting to catch up to him for sure. Take a look at Drew Brees this year if you want a see a QB on a sudden decline. I agree about being out of rhythm - one effect of the running game has been to disrupt Manning's timing. This is the same argument we had in reverse a few weeks ago; we couldn't run the ball because we only ran a few times a game and had no rhythm. Now that we're running a lot, we're pounding teams. I'd like to think the coaches can find a balance to the offense that will keep everyone in rhythm at the same time, and make us dangerous when the other team has no idea what's coming. Be interesting to see the SD game this week (should be nice weather, I think, but SD is 9th in total defense, 8th against the pass and 14th against the rush, so it's still no easy pickings)



I've been saying this for weeks. Some people here seem to think the run game will suffer with JT back, but I don't see it, at least as of now.

I doubt the running game will fall off the map with J. Thomas back in the line up. He's not a great blocker by any stretch but he's not the negative some people think he is in the running game.

[weazel]

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_27089588/father-time-bearing-down-broncos-peyton-manning

I have to admit I thought the same thing while watching that pathetic game yesterday

[Slick]

I thought he looked bad yesterday then I saw that he threw for 70% completion percentage against Buffalo. I also think his talk with Elway has caused him to back off a little, and let the team help carry him at times. Elway kind of reminding him that he doesn't have to do it all.

[weazel]

I see you are back to your "well we're winning games so nothing could possibly be wrong with the team" way of thinking.

thats how championships are won, ask Mo

[TXBRONC]

I have to admit I thought the same thing while watching that pathetic game yesterday

You think the game was pathetic? I think it was a tough game and I expected it to be close because of the Bills defense.

[NightTrainLayne]

I thought he looked bad yesterday then I saw that he threw for 70% completion percentage against Buffalo. I also think his talk with Elway has caused him to back off a little, and let the team help carry him at times. Elway kind of reminding him that he doesn't have to do it all.

The two interceptions looked bad, but otherwise, 14/20 for 173 yards is 8.65 yards per attempt. That is better than our season average, and better than the season average for the best yard/attempt team in the league (Green Bay @ 8.2 yards/attempt).

This against one of the better defenses in the league. Buffalo has averaged only allowing 6.1 yards per attempt this season (including our game yesterday).

The reports of Manning's demise are quite premature.

[MOtorboat]

The two interceptions looked bad, but otherwise, 14/20 for 173 yards is 8.65 yards per attempt. That is better than our season average, and better than the season average for the best yard/attempt team in the league (Green Bay @ 8.2 yards/attempt).

This against one of the better defenses in the league. Buffalo has averaged only allowing 6.1 yards per attempt this season (including our game yesterday).

The reports of Manning's demise are quite premature.

The first interception was terrible. It was a wobbler with double coverage.

[NightTrainLayne]

The first interception was terrible. It was a wobbler with double coverage.

Yes. But I think we have all noticed that Manning struggles with deep balls more than anything since his return. This has been going on 3 years, it's not a surprise.

That being said, he needs to, and I want him to, continue to try and test teams deep. We will have some ugly throws and interceptions from time to time, but that is the price to pay for keeping some balance.

[Nomad]

I don't care about his stats other than the W, it's the turnovers. We crucify the ball carrier for fumbles, and Manning needs to do a better job of not turning the ball over. That is what will be the difference in games.

[MOtorboat]

I see you are back to your "well we're winning games so nothing could possibly be wrong with the team" way of thinking.

10-3 and the No. 2 seed with three games to play.

:whoknows:

[Northman]

I thought he looked bad yesterday then I saw that he threw for 70% completion percentage against Buffalo. I also think his talk with Elway has caused him to back off a little, and let the team help carry him at times. Elway kind of reminding him that he doesn't have to do it all.


The two interceptions looked bad, but otherwise, 14/20 for 173 yards is 8.65 yards per attempt. That is better than our season average, and better than the season average for the best yard/attempt team in the league (Green Bay @ 8.2 yards/attempt).

This against one of the better defenses in the league. Buffalo has averaged only allowing 6.1 yards per attempt this season (including our game yesterday).

The reports of Manning's demise are quite premature.

I dont think anyone is asking him to do it all, i think people are overreacting to what we are saying. But, if you have a running game that is working and contributing it would be nice to be able to take advantage of that downfield. Both INT's were horribly thrown balls and he's been throwing erratically the last few weeks. Does he still possess ability? Obviously, but i think you might be underestimating the wear and tear on his body, especially as it gets colder. If we have to rely too much on the run game and Peyton cant come through with passing when we need it that can be a real problem. If anything, he should be sharper and crisper than he has been.

[broncofaninfla]

I'd still take him over most in the league but the interceptions are up and our WR's have to play DB several times a week lately batting down poorly thrown balls. With our new found running game we are in better shape but we'll need every phase of this team to be clicking by the time we hit the playoffs, especially if we end up playing New England again.

[NightTrainLayne]

I dont think anyone is asking him to do it all, i think people are overreacting to what we are saying. But, if you have a running game that is working and contributing it would be nice to be able to take advantage of that downfield. Both INT's were horribly thrown balls and he's been throwing erratically the last few weeks. Does he still possess ability? Obviously, but i think you might be underestimating the wear and tear on his body, especially as it gets colder. If we have to rely too much on the run game and Peyton cant come through with passing when we need it that can be a real problem. If anything, he should be sharper and crisper than he has been.

I see it differently. I agree the wear and tear has to be taking more of a toll as he gets older.

Therefore, we need to make sure we are more balanced, and take that weight off of his shoulders. That means running the ball like we have been. It also means living with the results when he throws two INTs along with 8.65 yards per attempt in a win against a great defensive team.

If somebody stops our running game, and Manning can't win it all on his own? Well, I hate to say it, but the games we've lost during the past twelve months show me that Manning isn't going to win a game like that all on his own without trying to run the ball. Like it or not, this is the offense that gives us the best chance of winning the big one.

Manning is good enough to beat a lot of teams all on his own. And in those types of games, it's a lot more fun to throw it 50 times, and have 4 TDs. But the problem is, Manning isn't good enough to beat teams all by himself deep in the playoffs. Those teams are too good.

This offense isn't maybe as fun to watch, but this is exactly what we need. Manning will be fine, and so will we.

[NightTrainLayne]

P.S. 50 throws a game generates a hell of a lot more wear and tear, (not to mention hits on him), than 20 throws a game.

[MOtorboat]

P.S. 50 throws a game generates a hell of a lot more wear and tear, (not to mention hits on him), than 20 throws a game.

Last year the worry was that this team couldn't win an ugly game with a top defense and sure enough, Seattle proved that worry right.

So they go out and get the defensive personnel to play an ugly game and then after getting punched in the mouth 2 of 3 weeks against New England and St. Louis they start actually game planning for ugly game (I hate this game plan, fwiw) and win three ugly games in a row against top defenses and they aren't winning pretty enough for people...

It's like a never-ending merry-go-round.

[Slick]

I dont think anyone is asking him to do it all, i think people are overreacting to what we are saying. But, if you have a running game that is working and contributing it would be nice to be able to take advantage of that downfield. Both INT's were horribly thrown balls and he's been throwing erratically the last few weeks. Does he still possess ability? Obviously, but i think you might be underestimating the wear and tear on his body, especially as it gets colder. If we have to rely too much on the run game and Peyton cant come through with passing when we need it that can be a real problem. If anything, he should be sharper and crisper than he has been.

Oh,I agree with what you're saying here. He should definitely be more accurate. I was just surprised as to how bad I though he looked, and yet he still completed 70% of his throws.

I think his lack of being able to threaten a defense deep will probably be Denver's downfall against a good team in the playoffs. They'll tighten up against the run and throw off his timing with the short stuff.

[tripp]

The reports of Manning's demise are quite premature.


Sadly that's one of the few downfall's of being an elite QB. Couple of bad games (by Manning's standards) where your numbers are comparable to the "average" QB in the league and all of a sudden the sky is falling.

[Slick]

The sky is not falling if someone points out a flaw in Manning's game. It is what it is.

[TXBRONC]

Last year the worry was that this team couldn't win an ugly game with a top defense and sure enough, Seattle proved that worry right.

So they go out and get the defensive personnel to play an ugly game and then after getting punched in the mouth 2 of 3 weeks against New England and St. Louis they start actually game planning for ugly game (I hate this game plan, fwiw) and win three ugly games in a row against top defenses and they aren't winning pretty enough for people...

It's like a never-ending merry-go-round.

Not having J. Thomas in the line up help to make this game closer. If he's in the line up Denver probably maintain a 14 point cushion.

[NightTrainLayne]

Not having J. Thomas in the line up help to make this game closer. If he's in the line up Denver probably maintain 14 point cushion.

I don't want to pile on Tamme, but his fumble inside the 10 right before halftime was huge as well.

[tripp]

The sky is not falling if someone points out a flaw in Manning's game. It is what it is.

What's the flaw again?



Not having J. Thomas in the line up help to make this game closer. If he's in the line up Denver probably maintain 14 point cushion.

I agree, maybe we're witnessing how much we need JT in the line up to help move the sticks in the passing game, and in the Red Zone.



I don't want to pile on Tamme, but his fumble inside the 10 right before halftime was huge as well.

The fumble sucked, and who knows what would've happened if he caught it. But would we have approached the game any different if we had scored? My god we ran the ball enough acting like we were up by 20 points anyway.

[TXBRONC]

I don't want to pile on Tamme, but his fumble inside the 10 right before halftime was huge as well.

I don't think that's piling on it's a fact.

[Northman]

I see it differently. I agree the wear and tear has to be taking more of a toll as he gets older.

Therefore, we need to make sure we are more balanced, and take that weight off of his shoulders. That means running the ball like we have been. It also means living with the results when he throws two INTs along with 8.65 yards per attempt in a win against a great defensive team.

If somebody stops our running game, and Manning can't win it all on his own? Well, I hate to say it, but the games we've lost during the past twelve months show me that Manning isn't going to win a game like that all on his own without trying to run the ball. Like it or not, this is the offense that gives us the best chance of winning the big one.

Manning is good enough to beat a lot of teams all on his own. And in those types of games, it's a lot more fun to throw it 50 times, and have 4 TDs. But the problem is, Manning isn't good enough to beat teams all by himself deep in the playoffs. Those teams are too good.

This offense isn't maybe as fun to watch, but this is exactly what we need. Manning will be fine, and so will we.

Oh, i dont have a problem with running the ball like we have. My only issue is when we do start putting it up he is turning it over or throwing it too low or erratic while not keeping the chains moving. I can see throwing 2 Int's when you put the ball up 30-40 times a game. But when you only throw 20 or so passes? Yea, i cant get on board with that. The whole idea of the running game is too fool the defense into coming up and opening up the play action so that receivers can make plays down the field. Maybe it improves the next couple of weeks but it does have me concerned in case a team comes in and shuts down the run.

[Nomad]

Last year the worry was that this team couldn't win an ugly game with a top defense and sure enough, Seattle proved that worry right.

So they go out and get the defensive personnel to play an ugly game and then after getting punched in the mouth 2 of 3 weeks against New England and St. Louis they start actually game planning for ugly game (I hate this game plan, fwiw) and win three ugly games in a row against top defenses and they aren't winning pretty enough for people...

It's like a never-ending merry-go-round.

A win is a win. The decisions causing the turnovers is concerning, and like Slick said, lack of a deep threat. Who says the score has to be 41-17 every game.

[Northman]

Oh,I agree with what you're saying here. He should definitely be more accurate. I was just surprised as to how bad I though he looked, and yet he still completed 70% of his throws.

I think his lack of being able to threaten a defense deep will probably be Denver's downfall against a good team in the playoffs. They'll tighten up against the run and throw off his timing with the short stuff.

You have to be careful with the completion stat, if he is dinking and dunking that will go up because of the type of passes he is actually completing on a regular basis. But your correct, the deep ball needs to improve in my mind if we are going to win a Championship. Got to have that balance, the running game is there, now we just need the passing game to improve a bit.

[BroncoWave]

I'll take "Putting words in Someone Else's Post" for $1000 Alex.

For crying out loud. Do you ever question why folks think you are argumentative? Mo said nothing of the kind. Your posts on the other hand seem to have a note of "Manning's career is over, WTF are we going to do now?" Mo, (and many other level-headed fans) are simply countering that argument by pointing out that we have played above-average defenses, and still won each of the last three games.

Wow, speaking of putting words in people's mouths...

All I've done is pose a question if this may be Manning's last year. I've made no such declaration that "his career is over. I'd love for you to point me to where I implied his career is over though.

[Northman]

The sky is not falling if someone points out a flaw in Manning's game. It is what it is.

No shit.

Talk about overreacting.

[VonDoom]

I see it differently. I agree the wear and tear has to be taking more of a toll as he gets older.

Therefore, we need to make sure we are more balanced, and take that weight off of his shoulders. That means running the ball like we have been. It also means living with the results when he throws two INTs along with 8.65 yards per attempt in a win against a great defensive team.

If somebody stops our running game, and Manning can't win it all on his own? Well, I hate to say it, but the games we've lost during the past twelve months show me that Manning isn't going to win a game like that all on his own without trying to run the ball. Like it or not, this is the offense that gives us the best chance of winning the big one.

Manning is good enough to beat a lot of teams all on his own. And in those types of games, it's a lot more fun to throw it 50 times, and have 4 TDs. But the problem is, Manning isn't good enough to beat teams all by himself deep in the playoffs. Those teams are too good.

This offense isn't maybe as fun to watch, but this is exactly what we need. Manning will be fine, and so will we.

Great post. Remember at the beginning of the year when we looked at our schedule and talked about how difficult it was? How we might be a better team this year even if the stats don't show it? That's what I see here. We've played some great defenses and we've had to actually game plan to play those teams (something that I assumed was unthinkable a few weeks ago). We're keeping Manning upright and winning games. He'll have another 300 yard, 3 or 4 TD game before the end of the year and people will worry a bit less.


Last year the worry was that this team couldn't win an ugly game with a top defense and sure enough, Seattle proved that worry right.

So they go out and get the defensive personnel to play an ugly game and then after getting punched in the mouth 2 of 3 weeks against New England and St. Louis they start actually game planning for ugly game (I hate this game plan, fwiw) and win three ugly games in a row against top defenses and they aren't winning pretty enough for people...

It's like a never-ending merry-go-round.

I actually like our new game planning, for what that's worth. Either way, though, I agree with this - when we were throwing it 45 times a game, the talk was, "We rely too much on Manning." Now we're running it more than passing it, and it's, "Something's wrong with Manning." Can we try to enjoy the fact that we have yet another winning season and soon will have a FOURTH straight division title?

[BroncoWave]

10-3 and the No. 2 seed with three games to play.

:whoknows:

What does that have to do with Manning's recent struggles?

[Northman]

Wow, speaking of putting words in people's mouths...

All I've done is pose a question if this may be Manning's last year. I've made no such declaration that "his career is over. I'd love for you to point me to where I implied his career is over though.


You and i may not see eye to eye on some things but i agree with you here. Thought it was a bit ****** up to troll you on this, especially when it actually was printed from a journalist a few hours later. I mean, Manning is old, thats just a fact of life. God forbid you speak on it. :lol:

[Nomad]

Win at SD & Cincy, shore up the division, probably #2 seed and give Manning rest and let Osweiller beat the Raiders.

[Northman]

Can we try to enjoy the fact that we have yet another winning season and soon will have a FOURTH straight division title?

Who's not enjoying the winning season? :confused:

[BroncoWave]

No shit.

Talk about overreacting.

Seriously. The overreaction in this thread is comical. I kinda expected it to be when I raised the point though. It's kinda impossible to speculate on Manning's career and when it might end without the legion of "Omg you're and idiot for declaring his career is over" posts. I've learned that people get really offended when you dare question the play of a popular player.

[Northman]

Win at SD & Cincy, shore up the division, probably #2 seed and give Manning rest and let Osweiller beat the Raiders.

That would be fun to see. Carr vs Oz. Potential future nemesis? Hmmmmm

[Nomad]

That would be fun to see. Carr vs Oz. Potential future nemesis? Hmmmmm

Watching that game yesterday, I'm not sure if the 9ers are that bad, or if the Raiders have found a spark with their new QB

[MOtorboat]

Great post. Remember at the beginning of the year when we looked at our schedule and talked about how difficult it was? How we might be a better team this year even if the stats don't show it? That's what I see here. We've played some great defenses and we've had to actually game plan to play those teams (something that I assumed was unthinkable a few weeks ago). We're keeping Manning upright and winning games. He'll have another 300 yard, 3 or 4 TD game before the end of the year and people will worry a bit less.



I actually like our new game planning, for what that's worth. Either way, though, I agree with this - when we were throwing it 45 times a game, the talk was, "We rely too much on Manning." Now we're running it more than passing it, and it's, "Something's wrong with Manning." Can we try to enjoy the fact that we have yet another winning season and soon will have a FOURTH straight division title?

It's kind of hard for Manning to look great when he has six passes late in the second quarter...

I think they've swung the pendulum way too much, and closed down some of the passing game, like they are scared to establish the cross and then build on it, because two games in 32 it wasn't there.

[Slick]

What's the flaw again?


Come on tripp. Seriously?

His arm strength, his lack of mobility. Can we not point things like that out? No one is saying he sucks.

[Northman]

Watching that game yesterday, I'm not sure if the 9ers are that bad, or if the Raiders have found a spark with their new QB

I think the Faid have found their QB. But, they still have to weed out the attitude and subpar players surrounding him. Coaching will have to be better as well but i think they are slowly but surely getting there. Very slowly.

[BroncoWave]

Come on tripp. Seriously?

His arm strength, his lack of mobility. Can we not point things like that out? No one is saying he sucks.

OMG how could you say Manning sucks? Do you eeven watch football?

[NightTrainLayne]

Wow, speaking of putting words in people's mouths...

All I've done is pose a question if this may be Manning's last year. I've made no such declaration that "his career is over. I'd love for you to point me to where I implied his career is over though.

I never said that you made such a declaration.

The point I was trying to reinforce, (unsuccessfully since it flew right over your head) is that you were very subjectivley reading something into Mo's post that simply wasn't there. I tried to subtly do the same with my post to make it clear that if I read things into your posts that aren't there, it really muddies up your intended meaning as well.

[Mike]

Oh, i dont have a problem with running the ball like we have. My only issue is when we do start putting it up he is turning it over or throwing it too low or erratic while not keeping the chains moving. I can see throwing 2 Int's when you put the ball up 30-40 times a game. But when you only throw 20 or so passes? Yea, i cant get on board with that. The whole idea of the running game is too fool the defense into coming up and opening up the play action so that receivers can make plays down the field. Maybe it improves the next couple of weeks but it does have me concerned in case a team comes in and shuts down the run.

I am happy with the run game, extremely happy with the production of it. It will be huge when if/when we have to go to NE for the AFCC. It is also great to not have to rely on Manning to be the team and decider of a win/loss.

Maybe the focus on the new offense has thrown the timing off with Manning and the receivers, maybe they are having a tough time adjusting to it, maybe Manning and the WRs are all dinged up and off their game? Who knows?

My main problem is how the plays are being called. It is as simple as Gase not understanding what Elway is looking for in an offense. Complementary football. Not just running every first and second down because we need to run the ball.

I give him credit for adjusting the offense and getting the run game up and running. He has done an incredible job since the beginning of the season. But he needs to work on creativity, mixing run/pass, and adding more plays. I know Manning likes keeping things simple and running the same plays so how about adding different looks to the sets (even if the plays are the same), so that we are less predictable.

[Nomad]

People blame Gase, but at the same time, says Manning is the one who calls the play. Which is it?

[BroncoWave]

I never said that you made such a declaration.

The point I was trying to reinforce, (unsuccessfully since it flew right over your head) is that you were very subjectivley reading something into Mo's post that simply wasn't there. I tried to subtly do the same with my post to make it clear that if I read things into your posts that aren't there, it really muddies up your intended meaning as well.

If that were a one-off comment by MO I wouldn't have responded in that way. But pretty much all season when people have brought up issues with the team his response has been "yeah, but look at our record". In my opinion, that is a weak rebuttal. It's possible to have a good record and still have issues with the team or certain players that need to be fixed.

[BroncoWave]

People blame Gase, but at the same time, says Manning is the one who calls the play. Which is it?

Gase calls the plays. Manning reportedly only audibles about 20% of the time.

[tripp]

Come on tripp. Seriously?

His arm strength, his lack of mobility. Can we not point things like that out? No one is saying he sucks.

Since he's been in Denver he's never had good arm strength to begin with, he's always made up for that with his superior accuracy. True, he can't run around the pocket to extend the play, or get the 1st down, but he does have good enough pocket presence to shuffle around and buy a second or two which is good enough for me. I'm just comparing Peyton from his time here, to his time in Indy, and I see no difference other than a scar on his neck.

[jhildebrand]

I think all the concern over Manning is premature. The bigger concern should be the road to the Super Bowl going through Foxborough. If Manning and company can get through that, the comfy confines of the dome in Arizona will benefit this team, and Manning, greatly.

[NightTrainLayne]

If that were a one-off comment by MO I wouldn't have responded in that way. But pretty much all season when people have brought up issues with the team his response has been "yeah, but look at our record". In my opinion, that is a weak rebuttal. It's possible to have a good record and still have issues with the team or certain players that need to be fixed.

Meanwhile, Mo has posts in this thread criticizing our gameplan. Weird.

[Nomad]

Gase calls the plays. Manning reportedly only audibles about 20% of the time.

I asked the question because I was always under the impression Manning ran the offense.

[Nomad]

I think all the concern over Manning is premature. The bigger concern should be the road to the Super Bowl going through Foxborough. If Manning and company can get through that, the comfy confines of the dome in Arizona will benefit this team, and Manning, greatly.

This team can win at Foxboro.

[NightTrainLayne]

This team can win at Foxboro.

Can they win at Foxboro? Yes. But they will have to play a near perfect game. I would guess that if the current teams played there 10 times, we could win 2 or 3. Of course, we may get healthier, and that would help.

A potential playoff game in Foxboro is way down the road though. I'm going to focus on enjoying the season we're having now.

[tripp]

This team can win at Foxboro.

It's crazy how the Pats struggle when Gronk gets bullied like that.

[Nomad]

Can they win at Foxboro? Yes. But they will have to play a near perfect game. I would guess that if the current teams played there 10 times, we could win 2 or 3. Of course, we may get healthier, and that would help.

A potential playoff game in Foxboro is way down the road though. I'm going to focus on enjoying the season we're having now.

I believe we're all going to enjoy the rest of the season as well.

[BroncoWave]

Meanwhile, Mo has posts in this thread criticizing our gameplan. Weird.

Well then he needs to shut up about throwing our record in my face when I criticize a different facet of our team. I'm well aware of our record, it doesn't add to the discussion.

[Shazam!]

Manning will pitch a great game in SD and smack all this talk of him being finished, mark my words.

Patience people. Wow.

[jhildebrand]

This team can win at Foxboro.

Existentially speaking, yes they can. However, I have yet to see much that encourages me that this team can go in to Foxborough and win. I agree with what NTL said. Out of 10 match ups I think they win 2 or 3. Beli seems to have Fox and Manning's numbers.

[BroncoWave]

Manning will pitch a great game in SD and smack all this talk of him being finished, mark my words.

Patience people. Wow.

Who is saying he's finished? Just curious. Try to ease off on the hyperbole there.

[Nomad]

Manning will pitch a great game in SD and smack all this talk of him being finished, mark my words.

Patience people. Wow.

Ill have to go back to the Ale House to watch this game. CBS has the single game, and Alaska gets the Fins/Pats game in the morning. Oh well, the food is good, and my boys actually want to hang out with me and watch a game.:lol:

Manning has 2 big road tests ahead, if he can get through those with Ws.

I'm not sure I like the 13-3 record, because I believe it's cursed?

[Northman]

Manning will pitch a great game in SD and smack all this talk of him being finished, mark my words.



Oh, if he can kick onto another level ala Brady earlier this year i will be a happy guy. Bring it on Pey Pey. Time to go into overdrive.

[VonDoom]

Existentially speaking, yes they can. However, I have yet to see much that encourages me that this team can go in to Foxborough and win. I agree with what NTL said. Out of 10 match ups I think they win 2 or 3. Beli seems to have Fox and Manning's numbers.

Agreed. I think we're taking the right steps to be able to win a game there, but 2 or 3 out of 10 seems about right for this team.

[NightTrainLayne]

Well then he needs to shut up about throwing our record in my face when I criticize a different facet of our team. I'm well aware of our record, it doesn't add to the discussion.

Let me get this straight.

1. Carol posted an article written by Kiszla questioning whether Father Time was getting to Manning.

2. You obliquely make the point that you posted a thread with this idea before Kiszla's article.

3. Down the page, Mo makes two posts:


Denver played 3 of the top 5 passing defenses three weeks in a row.

I doubt he's done.


Denver is also 3-0 in those games.

4. Now you say he is "throwing our record in my face when I criticize a different facet of our team."

Really? Mo didn't mention you, or throw anything in your face. He made a couple of pretty benign, and true statements.

[weazel]

You think the game was pathetic? I think it was a tough game and I expected it to be close because of the Bills defense.

I was talking mostly about our total offense but if were talking about comparisons the Pat's put up 38 against this defense, but as of right now, the Pat's are in a different class than the Broncos.

[BroncoWave]

If mo wants to defend himself I'll continue the discussion with him. If not, I'm done with silly sidetrack.

[Shazam!]

There is nothing to defend Wave. The only one making a big deal about this is you and Kiz.

Broncos had a Bye early and a tough road trip. They've played some good defenses out there.

Manning is fine. Different Broncos offense. Some key injuries. OLine changes. Tired team. That's all.

[weazel]

beats having Griese

[Nomad]

beats having Griese

I hope Manning doesn't own a dog:D

[Shazam!]

beats having Griese

...or Plummer or Cutler or Orton or Tebow.

[Davii]

I find the overreaction and subsequent complaints about overreaction in a thread that owes its creation to an overreaction rather ironic and amusing.

[BroncoJoe]

If mo wants to defend himself I'll continue the discussion with him. If not, I'm done with silly sidetrack.

IOW: You got me!

[weazel]

...or Plummer or Cutler or Orton or Tebow.

I liked Plummer. Didnt mind Orton as much as others either

[BroncoWave]

There is nothing to defend Wave. The only one making a big deal about this is you and Kiz.

Broncos had a Bye early and a tough road trip. They've played some good defenses out there.

Manning is fine. Different Broncos offense. Some key injuries. OLine changes. Tired team. That's all.

Can you please direct me to the post where I am making a big deal out of anything. I can't seem to find it. You are the one who is making a big deal out of people asking a simple question about Manning's age.

[BroncoWave]

IOW: You got me!

I see the rest of the peanut gallery is chiming in.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I also think our passing offense has been "figured out". It's been widely discussed how simple it is at its core and how our routes are extremely similar in every formation. When I can sit on my couch and tell what we're gonna do in the passing game, what do you think professionals with hours of game tape to watch can do?

Our passing game has been successful via execution more than complexity or scheme. Why do you think our WRs (especially Sanders) get blasted so much? When the defense always knows their routes, it's easy to have a guy there to blow up the play and or receiver.

I think we need to tweak the passing game to make it less predictable. I can look at a formation and know that our receivers are gonna run a bubble screen, a crossing route, or a fade. Those appear to be the vast majority of routes and it's not hard to defend them when you know what's coming. Hell, DBs don't even bite on double moves anymore because they KNOW it's gonna be a fade every time and not a comeback/curl route. Last year, it seemed the creativity in the passing game was much more robust. Now we've become so vanilla that we've made ourselves easy to defend.

[Davii]

Can you please direct me to the post where I am making a big deal out of anything. I can't seem to find it. You are the one who is making a big deal out of people asking a simple question about Manning's age.

How about the one telling Mo he needs to shut up? Does that count?

[ShaneFalco]

i dont think i have seen manning lead a WR into a defender before like he did with Sanders. I dont know if he is just in a rut, or its a long term thing.

Whatever it is, hope he figures it out by next week.

[BroncoJoe]

I see the rest of the peanut gallery is chiming in.

You're so defensive and can't take anyone else's viewpoint unless it corresponds directly with yours. You end up looking like a crybaby.

Fact is, I think we've all said we have some concerns, but it centers more around how this offense can't seem to find that perfect balance between passing and running. Manning has "struggled", but as stated earlier I'd still take him over most QB's out there, and believe it's because he can't get into a rhythm with his receivers throwing 4-5 times per quarter.

[Northman]

i dont think i have seen manning lead a WR into a defender before like he did with Sanders. I dont know if he is just in a rut, or its a long term thing.

Whatever it is, hope he figures it out by next week.

I actually think he just didnt see the defender on that play. He has been trying so hard to get the ball out so fast that he's not scanning the field enough and adjusting when plays like that are being set up. Its football though, Sanders is a tough guy.

[BroncoWave]

You're so defensive and can't take anyone else's viewpoint unless it corresponds directly with yours. You end up looking like a crybaby.

Fact is, I think we've all said we have some concerns, but it centers more around how this offense can't seem to find that perfect balance between passing and running. Manning has "struggled", but as stated earlier I'd still take him over most QB's out there, and believe it's because he can't get into a rhythm with his receivers throwing 4-5 times per quarter.

The only thing I'm being defensive about is people telling me I'm overreacting and declaring his career over. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion when they are actually framing my position correctly. I think some of you have made a hobby out of exaggerating my opinions to the highest degree then trying to get me to react to that exaggeration. What do they call that? A strawman I believe?

[jhildebrand]

With the effective running game this team seems to have found, there is NO reason for empty back sets. I saw a few yesterday. It makes the D's job all too easy.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

RT @WhitPotta: when Broncos only pass they are "to reliant on manning" when they establish a run game "questions about Manning emerge"...

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

Truth is, even the PFM1000 needs time to adjust to a revamped offense. He's a creature of habit. Habit has been to throw 50 times, not 20.

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

RT @nighttrain48: or cuz he is throwing ducks all over the field--->>he threw ducks last year when he re-wrote the record book

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 5h 5 hours ago

Get the feeling most fans are concerned about Manning's performance only because he cost them in their fantasy playoffs yesterday ...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 18m

Some food for thought: #Broncos record this season when Manning throws for fewer than 300 yards is ... 7-0

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 2h

I get it PM doesn't throw darts, sometimes accuracy outside #'s off, but team is 10-3, he has 34 TDs and needs 90 yards to hit 4,000, again.

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 2h

May be time for Manning to break out R-E-L-A-X t-shirt or something...at last report he's still tied for league lead in TD passes.

[BroncoJoe]

The only thing I'm being defensive about is people telling me I'm overreacting and declaring his career over. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion when they are actually framing my position correctly. I think some of you have made a hobby out of exaggerating my opinions to the highest degree then trying to get me to react to that exaggeration. What do they call that? A strawman I believe?

It's just a different opinion, which frustrates you to no end when people don't agree and pat you on the back for your wonderful (debateable) insite.

See Carol's posts above mine.

[MOtorboat]

Uh-oh, Legwold mentioned the team's record. Get him!

[Northman]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

RT @WhitPotta: when Broncos only pass they are "to reliant on manning" when they establish a run game "questions about Manning emerge"...

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

Truth is, even the PFM1000 needs time to adjust to a revamped offense. He's a creature of habit. Habit has been to throw 50 times, not 20.

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4h

RT @nighttrain48: or cuz he is throwing ducks all over the field--->>he threw ducks last year when he re-wrote the record book

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 5h 5 hours ago

Get the feeling most fans are concerned about Manning's performance only because he cost them in their fantasy playoffs yesterday ...


Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 18m

Some food for thought: #Broncos record this season when Manning throws for fewer than 300 yards is ... 7-0

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 2h

I get it PM doesn't throw darts, sometimes accuracy outside #'s off, but team is 10-3, he has 34 TDs and needs 90 yards to hit 4,000, again.

Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 2h

May be time for Manning to break out R-E-L-A-X t-shirt or something...at last report he's still tied for league lead in TD passes.

Championship!

[tripp]

With the effective running game this team seems to have found, there is NO reason for empty back sets. I saw a few yesterday. It makes the D's job all too easy.

I like when he's in the shot gun formation with CJ at his side. I believe CJ has stated he prefers that formation as he can see the protection better?

[MOtorboat]

I like when he's in the shot gun formation with CJ at his side. I believe CJ has stated he prefers that formation as he can see the protection better?

+1.

[BroncoWave]

It's just a different opinion, which frustrates you to no end when people don't agree and pat you on the back for your wonderful (debateable) insite.

See Carol's posts above mine.

It's not a difference of opinion to tell me I'm declaring his career over then criticising me for it. That's called a strawman.

[jhildebrand]

I like when he's in the shot gun formation with CJ at his side. I believe CJ has stated he prefers that formation as he can see the protection better?

I do, too. I like any formation that has a body in the back field. With CJ and Juwan going let's line up in an I formation and get real old school and down and dirty. Anything but empty back sets.

[BroncoJoe]

It's not a difference of opinion to tell me I'm declaring his career over then criticising me for it. That's called a strawman.

What?

[Mike]

I like when he's in the shot gun formation with CJ at his side. I believe CJ has stated he prefers that formation as he can see the protection better?

There is a problem with this formation when on the road though. It takes away the snapcount advantage. And for running purposes, I think in most cases running from under center is more effective because it gives the running back more power/speed hitting the hole. It also is more effective because it sets up the playaction (which don't use often enough).

[Slick]

Are we allowed to be critical of Manning's play? I mean if he needs 40 passes a game to develop a rhythm or chemistry with his receivers then that might be a huge problem come January.

I think it's an ugly truth that some of us don't want to aknowledge.

This week's game will be a huge test for the "new" Broncos. Pagano always seems to call a good defensive game when going against Manning, and Denver seems to always bring out the best in Phyllis.

[MOtorboat]

There is a problem with this formation when on the road though. It takes away the snapcount advantage. And for running purposes, I think in most cases running from under center is more effective because it gives the running back more power/speed hitting the hole. It also is more effective because it sets up the playaction (which don't use often enough).

Two of these things are complete myths.

[BroncoJoe]

It's not a difference of opinion to tell me I'm declaring his career over then criticising me for it. That's called a strawman.


What?

Let me clarify: You basically said his career is over:


It's really starting to look like father time is catching up to him. His arm strength and accuracy seem to be deteriorting weekly. Pretty questionable decision making too. I love Manning, I really do, but I just don't know how much he has left. I'm glad we finally found a competent running back, because it's going to take that to get us to the Super Bowl again it would appear.

And, people are disagreeing with you. How is that a strawman?

[Northman]

Two of these things are complete myths.

Explain because i happen to agree with him.

[BroncoJoe]

Explain because i happen to agree with him.

MO is incorrect. All three are myths.

[Northman]

Let me clarify: You basically said his career is over:




To be fair Joe, i didnt take it that he said that Manning's career is over. Not quite sure why everyone is banging on Wave today (at least on this topic) but it seemed to start with HP and then just trickled down from there. I think Wave made his comments because he (i know i was) probably was surprised to actually see an article in print that was questioning some of the stuff that he, myself, and a few others have been thinking and eluding too. While we may question Manning's struggles i have not seen anyone saying his career is over at all, not sure why everyone keeps making that proclamation.

[Northman]

MO is incorrect. All three are myths.

Interesting, ive actually used play action when i played so they cant all possibly be myths. lmao

[BroncoJoe]

To be fair Joe, i didnt take it that he said that Manning's career is over. Not quite sure why everyone is banging on Wave today (at least on this topic) but it seemed to start with HP and then just trickled down from there. I think Wave made his comments because he (i know i was) probably was surprised to actually see an article in print that was questioning some of the stuff that he, myself, and a few others have been thinking and eluding too. While we may question Manning's struggles i have not seen anyone saying his career is over at all, not sure why everyone keeps making that proclamation.

I guess I'm not sure what else you could take from his initial post. Kind of screams "he's done".

Everyone has an opinion, though.

[BroncoWave]

Let me clarify: You basically said his career is over:



And, people are disagreeing with you. How is that a strawman?

Yeah, I said in that post I see his skills starting to deteriorate a bit and I'm wondering if this is his last year. Nowhere in that post did I declare him done.

[Mike]

MO is incorrect. All three are myths.

No, they are not. You may disagree with them, but that is only your opinion.

- Manning relies on the right guard to tap the center when he is set to snap the ball. Dead giveaway to the defense when the ball is ready to snap. Takes away an advantage on the road when the team knows when the ball is about to be snapped.

- Running back is running forward before he gets the ball and has momentum running into the line to hit the hole or brush off a tackle vs. being handed the ball and starting from nothing. You can argue whether or not running from the shotgun is more effective than from under center, but you cannot argue the running back gets more speed/power running from a traditional set.

- Playaction is self-explanatory and needs no defense.

[BroncoJoe]

yeah, i said in that post i see his skills starting to deteriorate a bit and i'm wondering if this is his last year. Nowhere in that post did i declare him done.

lol.

[BroncoJoe]

No, they are not. You may disagree with them, but that is only your opinion.

- Manning relies on the right guard to tap the center when he is set to snap the ball. Dead giveaway to the defense when the ball is ready to snap. BS.

- Running back is running forward before he gets the ball and has momentum running into the line to hit the hole or brush off a tackle vs. being handed the ball and starting from nothing. You can argue whether or not running from the shotgun is more effective than from under center, but you cannot argue the running back gets more speed/power running from a traditional set. You can also state (as has CJ himself) you see the defense better starting further back. You can still get a head of steam/power getting the ball 5 yards back, as opposed to 3.

- Playaction is self-explanatory and needs no defense. Are you saying playaction is impossible in the shotgun?

And, these are your opinions. No more, or less, important or true.

[Mike]

And, these are your opinions. No more, or less, important or true.

I never said they were more than that.

[Northman]

And, these are your opinions. No more, or less, important or true.

Nor are they myths. ;)

[MOtorboat]

Explain because i happen to agree with him.

Formation is irrelevant.

Anderson had 12 runs for 27 yards yesterday with a formation under center, that included 6 runs that either lost yardage or gained zero. He had nine runs from the shotgun, all gained positive yards, for 31 yards. He also had all three touchdowns out of the shotgun.

The only outlier in that idea is that Thompson's two big runs came from under center. So maybe the theory only applies to Hillman and Anderson, but from where I'm sitting formation is irrelevant in the running game, and the idea that you can't play action and that the running back sees better or that blockers block better with the quarterback under center is false. A good block is a good block.

[BroncoWave]

lol.

Lol indeed.

[MOtorboat]

No, they are not. You may disagree with them, but that is only your opinion.

- Manning relies on the right guard to tap the center when he is set to snap the ball. Dead giveaway to the defense when the ball is ready to snap. Takes away an advantage on the road when the team knows when the ball is about to be snapped.

- Running back is running forward before he gets the ball and has momentum running into the line to hit the hole or brush off a tackle vs. being handed the ball and starting from nothing. You can argue whether or not running from the shotgun is more effective than from under center, but you cannot argue the running back gets more speed/power running from a traditional set.

- Playaction is self-explanatory and needs no defense.

I'm using hard numbers to back up my opinion and the run is not more effective with a quarterback under center.

See: Philadelphia.

[BroncoJoe]

I never said they were more than that.

You inferred it by discounting my and MO's post by pulling the "opinion" card.

[BroncoJoe]

Nor are they myths. ;)

They certainly aren't fact.

[BroncoJoe]

Lol indeed.

Right. Thanks for finally agreeing, and acknowledging your opinion is silly.

[Mike]

I'm using hard numbers to back up my opinion and the run is not more effective with a quarterback under center.

See: Philadelphia.

I don't care about Philly, we don't run the same offense as them. I am talking about our offense. The run game seems to be doing better with Manning under center more. It also doesn't address the other disadvantages running from that set that I talked about.

[Northman]

Formation is irrelevant.

Anderson had 12 runs for 27 yards yesterday with a formation under center, that included 6 runs that either lost yardage or gained zero. He had nine runs from the shotgun, all gained positive yards, for 31 yards. He also had all three touchdowns out of the shotgun.

The only outlier in that idea is that Thompson's two big runs came from under center. So maybe the theory only applies to Hillman and Anderson, but from where I'm sitting formation is irrelevant in the running game, and the idea that you can't play action and that the running back sees better or that blockers block better with the quarterback under center is false. A good block is a good block.

Well, i dont think Mike was implying that the shotgun isnt effective at all, only that play action could be far more beneficial, especially in the passing attack.

[Mike]

You inferred it by discounting my and MO's post by pulling the "opinion" card.

Ok. Now who's reading into posts and putting words in people's mouths?

[MOtorboat]

I don't care about Philly, we don't run the same offense as them. I am talking about our offense. The run game seems to be doing better with Manning under center more. It also doesn't address the other disadvantages running from that set that I talked about.

First three games:


Denver did have 23 rushes for 121 yards out of the shotgun. An average of 5.26 YPC.

Denver had 40 rushes for 106 yards from under center. An average of 2.65.

[Mike]

First three games:

First three games.

[MOtorboat]

Well, i dont think Mike was implying that the shotgun isnt effective at all, only that play action could be far more beneficial, especially in the passing attack.


Denver runs a very effective play action in the shotgun.

[MOtorboat]

First three games.


Only because I haven't looked at the rest yet. Do you have those numbers to refute my position?

[Northman]

First three games:

But that was before we actually made running a priority right?

[Mike]

Only because I haven't looked at the rest yet. Do you have those numbers to refute my position?

No. Just what I see during the games now and in the past. Don't know where to look for those kind of situational stats.

[Slick]

Denver runs a very effective play action in the shotgun.

They do. I wish they would have used more of it yesterday. Seemed like the Bills were ripe for the taking, especially on the second to last drive at the end of the game. The three straight runs followed by a punt was frustrating to watch.

[MOtorboat]

They do. I wish they would have used more of it yesterday. Seemed like the Bills were ripe for the taking, especially on the second to last drive at the end of the game. The three straight runs followed by a punt was frustrating to watch.

There was a three and out with all passes too. Like I said yesterday, the end of that game was frustrating.

[pulse]

Yeah, I said in that post I see his skills starting to deteriorate a bit and I'm wondering if this is his last year. Nowhere in that post did I declare him done.

But that's just it, if you are wondering if this is Peyton's last year, then you're basically saying you're wondering if he'll be done after this season. Nobody thinks you're saying he's "done" as of this week or 13 games into another division title, regardless of how shitty you think he's playing.

Anyway, after reading the article and reading through both Manning threads, I'll just comment that this won't be Manning's last year. I'll bet the farm on that. And if Denver continues to improve defensively, he's not going to need to throw for 4000+ yards and 40+ TDs next year for Denver to compete for the AFC crown and another Super Bowl. I can't say he'll finish his contract, but then again, that contract ends in 2016. I wouldn't be surprised if he does finish it out. His brains are still too invaluable behind center and his physical skill set is good enough, especially on a team that is as balanced and physical on offense and loaded at defense, to keep Denver in the championship hunt. He doesn't have to equal the present Aaron Rodgers every week to win another championship; and that's not just next year, that's right now.

[Slick]

There was a three and out with all passes too. Like I said yesterday, the end of that game was frustrating.

I'm not remembering that series so I'll take your word for it. The Gameday thread got a little testy there when Denver didn't close the Bills out like we thought they would. Denver dominated most of that game. I sure didn't think they'd have to recover an onsides kick just to hang on.

[BroncoJoe]

Ok. Now who's reading into posts and putting words in people's mouths?

You?

[BroncoJoe]

Running game is just as effective (if not more) out of the shotgun.

Manning is better out of the shotgun on pass plays.

Why do we have him under center again?

[VonDoom]

I'm not on either side of the shotgun vs under center debate. But since we're looking for facts, I looked at the game book for yesterday's game. I didn't have a chance to go back through any others, but since this one is fresh in our minds, I figured I'd start there.

According to that, we ran 16 times from under center for 102 yards, average of 6.37 ypc. This includes Juwan's big 47 yarder (take that out and we're at 3.66 ypc, FYI) and Sanders' 13 yard end around. From shotgun, we ran 11 times for 33 yards, 3.0 ypc. These numbers don't include Manning's two kneeldowns at the end of the game.

[Northman]

.

Manning is better out of the shotgun on pass plays.



This we agree with.

[VonDoom]

I'm not on either side of the shotgun vs under center debate. But since we're looking for facts, I looked at the game book for yesterday's game. I didn't have a chance to go back through any others, but since this one is fresh in our minds, I figured I'd start there.

According to that, we ran 16 times from under center for 102 yards, average of 6.37 ypc. This includes Juwan's big 47 yarder (take that out and we're at 3.66 ypc, FYI) and Sanders' 13 yard end around. From shotgun, we ran 11 times for 33 yards, 3.0 ypc. These numbers don't include Manning's two kneeldowns at the end of the game.

Okay, I looked back at the last three weeks, aka "when we started caring about the running game." This is what I found, give or take a couple of yards (I added up the yards in the Dolphins game three times and am off two yards to what the game book says. Also, I didn't count Bruton's run on the fake punt, or any kneel downs or credited runs by Manning):

Dolphins -
Under center - 12 rushes, 64 yards, 5.3 ypc
Shotgun - 21 rushes, 141 yards, 6.7 ypc
Total - 33 rushes, 205 yards, 6.2 ypc

Chiefs -
Under center - 25 rushes, 115 yards, 4.6 ypc
Shotgun - 17 rushes, 92 yards, 5.4 ypc
Total - 42 rushes, 207 yards, 4.9 ypc

Bills -
Under center 16 rushes, 102 yards, 6.4 ypc
Shotgun - 11 rushes, 33 yards, 3.0 ypc
Total - 27 rushes, 135 yards, 5.0 ypc

3 game totals -
Under center - 53 rushes, 281 yards, 5.3 ypc
Shotgun - 49 rushes, 266 yards, 5.4 ypc
Total - 102 rushes, 547 yards, 5.4 ypc

Wow, when you look at all three games together, it really evens out. Small sample size, but they're virtually identical, no matter what formation we run out of.

[MOtorboat]

First three weeks, last three weeks (so 6 of 13 games):
Under Center: 93 for 387, 4.16
Shotgun: 70 for 387, 5.5

I'll get to the other games at some point, but the overall picture is quite clear. The "drawbacks" to running out of the shotgun are false.

[tripp]

I think someone was comparing Elway's performance in the Superbowl to Manning's performance yesterday.

Oddly enough there's a little article about it.


http://predominantlyorange.com/2014/12/08/if-manning-was-awful-what-about-this-guy/

[Northman]

First three weeks, last three weeks (so 6 of 13 games):
Under Center: 93 for 387, 4.16
Shotgun: 70 for 387, 5.5

I'll get to the other games at some point, but the overall picture is quite clear. The "drawbacks" to running out of the shotgun are false.

No one said there was any drawbacks going out of the shotgun.

[Northman]

Okay, I looked back at the last three weeks, aka "when we started caring about the running game." This is what I found, give or take a couple of yards (I added up the yards in the Dolphins game three times and am off two yards to what the game book says. Also, I didn't count Bruton's run on the fake punt, or any kneel downs or credited runs by Manning):

Dolphins -
Under center - 12 rushes, 64 yards, 5.3 ypc
Shotgun - 21 rushes, 141 yards, 6.7 ypc
Total - 33 rushes, 205 yards, 6.2 ypc

Chiefs -
Under center - 25 rushes, 115 yards, 4.6 ypc
Shotgun - 17 rushes, 92 yards, 5.4 ypc
Total - 42 rushes, 207 yards, 4.9 ypc

Bills -
Under center 16 rushes, 102 yards, 6.4 ypc
Shotgun - 11 rushes, 33 yards, 3.0 ypc
Total - 27 rushes, 135 yards, 5.0 ypc

3 game totals -
Under center - 53 rushes, 281 yards, 5.3 ypc
Shotgun - 49 rushes, 266 yards, 5.4 ypc
Total - 102 rushes, 547 yards, 5.4 ypc

Wow, when you look at all three games together, it really evens out. Small sample size, but they're virtually identical, no matter what formation we run out of.

So wait? You mean running from under center isnt a myth? Oh shit, no way. MO had me convinced it just doesnt happen.

[ShaneFalco]

anybody who has ever played defense knows that its harder to read the play with QB under center.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, I said in that post I see his skills starting to deteriorate a bit and I'm wondering if this is his last year. Nowhere in that post did I declare him done.

You said Manning's skills seem to be deteriorating on a weekly basis.

[BroncoWave]

You said Manning's skills seem to be deteriorating on a weekly basis.

Yes. Still not the same thing as saying he's done. Even a Manning with deteriorating skills is still better than most QB's in the league. But I just don't think you can argue there's been a drop-off in his play. I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong though and kill it for the rest of the year.

[jhildebrand]

Let's just say for a moment that Manning's skills are deteriorating. If you ask me, the one thing the last handful of Super Bowls, especially the last 3, has shown is you don't need a top notch, in his prime QB. It helps. But even then, you don't need them to do it all. In fact, I would argue they all were dialed back a degree in production in the Super Bowl as compared to some of their regular season or playoff performances. Russell Wilson won and had some God awful numbers at times last year. Joe Flacco isn't anything to get excited about. In fact, the only QB I feel was in his prime at the top of his game to win a SB was Brees (Rodgers was on his way and is there now). But don't take my word for it. Look at the numbers:

Wilson-18 of 25 206 yards 2 TD 0 int
Flacco-22 of33 287 yards 3 TD 0 Int
E. Manning 30 of 40 296 yards 1 TD 0 INT
Aaron Rodgers 24 of 39 304 3 TD 0 INT
Brees 32 of 39 288 yards 2 TD 0 INT
Roethlisberger 21 of 30 256 1 TD 1 INT
E. Manning 19 of 34 255 2 TD 1 INT
P. Manning 25 of 38 247 1 TD 1 INT

Average the completions and you need your QB to make about 24 completions. More importantly the winning team in the last 4 years had a QB who didn't turn the ball over. If you look, often times, the losing team's QB had better numbers but more (or as many) INT's.

So even if Manning's abilities are on the back 9 of life they are still substantially ahead of where the last 4 QB's were when they won the SB. I'm quite certain Manning can muddle his way to 24 completions.

[pnbronco]

That's funny. At least half of Broncos fans think Kiszla is crazy too.

I've listen to Kiszla corner these last 3 weeks since I've been home. He's picked us to loose in everyone of those games. He even said last week all I see are there problems. Hey is Peyton a pup, no. Did the cold get to him in KC, yes. Is he adjusting to the new rhythm of play...oh yeah. He's played a different way for a long time, it takes time to adjust, but he will and pretty much all our receiving corp was hurt, like really hurt last week, so that comes into the factor as well.

Went to the toy drive last night and saw DT, he was limping less. I think this will help us a lot down the road and hopefully JT will get better and Virgil Green will stay healthy.

[MOtorboat]

No one said there was any drawbacks going out of the shotgun.

Yes they did. And you said you agreed with them.

[Hawgdriver]

(I hate this game plan, fwiw)

Why?

[MOtorboat]

Why?

Because I like the Broncos' passing game, and I think they've kind of given up on it the last three weeks.

[Hawgdriver]

Okay, I looked back at the last three weeks, aka "when we started caring about the running game." This is what I found . ..

Wow, when you look at all three games together, it really evens out. Small sample size, but they're virtually identical, no matter what formation we run out of.

Awesome dude. Great work.

[weazel]

I actually think he just didnt see the defender on that play. He has been trying so hard to get the ball out so fast that he's not scanning the field enough and adjusting when plays like that are being set up. Its football though, Sanders is a tough guy.

he's dont that the last 3 or 4 games... I made a comment about him looking like Griese in one of the gameday forums a few weeks ago. I remember someone almost got killed.

[Hawgdriver]

Because I like the Broncos' passing game, and I think they've kind of given up on it the last three weeks.

I think the pendulum has swung too far as well.

I don't mind if it's just a phase that allows this new "identity" to really cement hold in their psyche or whatever you want to call it. Like, we are a team that gets "W"s however we need to. I expect the Broncos to demonstrate more diversity going forward now that they have earned their blunt force trauma merit badge.

[VonDoom]

Awesome dude. Great work.

Thanks man! I probably should have been doing actual work, but this was more fun.

[Hawgdriver]

Yes. Still not the same thing as saying he's done. Even a Manning with deteriorating skills is still better than most QB's in the league. But I just don't think you can argue there's been a drop-off in his play. I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong though and kill it for the rest of the year.

I don't think Manning being 5 weeks older is the reason he's not dropping gaudy stats and looking less sharp over the past few games.

My guess is that it's a combination of early bye week, missing JT, tired legs, and game plan. I think the zip and accuracy concerns stem from how deep in the season the Broncos are, and the toll 10 straight weeks of football takes on a 38 year old body. I wouldn't mind if the Broncos drummed up some excuse to rest Manning on Wednesdays. He's had enough practice. I want fresh legs going into January, assuming the Broncos continue to win enough to make the postseason.

[BroncoWave]

Because I like the Broncos' passing game, and I think they've kind of given up on it the last three weeks.

Yeah but we're 3-0 over that stretch.

[MOtorboat]

Yeah but we're 3-0 over that stretch.

Yup, and I enjoy winning more than how it gets done.

Derp.

[BroncoWave]

I don't think Manning being 5 weeks older is the reason he's not dropping gaudy stats and looking less sharp over the past few games.

My guess is that it's a combination of early bye week, missing JT, tired legs, and game plan. I think the zip and accuracy concerns stem from how deep in the season the Broncos are, and the toll 10 straight weeks of football takes on a 38 year old body. I wouldn't mind if the Broncos drummed up some excuse to rest Manning on Wednesdays. He's had enough practice. I want fresh legs going into January, assuming the Broncos continue to win enough to make the postseason.

This kinda plays into my point. Him being 38 years old, his body might be starting to wear out earlier in the season than it used to. I looked it up just out of curiosity, and he is on pace to throw over 600 passes for the second straight season. He had only done that once in his career before that. I have to imagine that would take its toll on a 38 year old arm.

I definitely agree that it would be great to rest him in anyway possible heading into the playoffs. It would be awesome if we had the first round bye locked up heading into week 17 and could give him an extra week to rest before the playoffs begin. We need him as fresh as possible heading into that strretch.

[Slick]

The run heavy game plans have allowed the offensive line to play more agressive and try to blow people off the ball instead of always being on their heels in pass pro. I think that was a goal of the coaching staff to build confidence after shuffling the line around.

[SoCalImport]

The run heavy game plans have allowed the offensive line to play more agressive and try to blow people off the ball instead of always being on their heels in pass pro. I think that was a goal of the coaching staff to build confidence after shuffling the line around.
That's what's stood out to me even more than CJ running and 18's pedestrian#s. The line has played awesome over this stretch and that has everything to do with getting to play more aggressively.

[NightTrainLayne]

This kinda plays into my point. Him being 38 years old, his body might be starting to wear out earlier in the season than it used to. I looked it up just out of curiosity, and he is on pace to throw over 600 passes for the second straight season. He had only done that once in his career before that. I have to imagine that would take its toll on a 38 year old arm.

I definitely agree that it would be great to rest him in anyway possible heading into the playoffs. It would be awesome if we had the first round bye locked up heading into week 17 and could give him an extra week to rest before the playoffs begin. We need him as fresh as possible heading into that strretch.

One way to "rest him in anyway possible", is to gameplan to only throw 20-25 times per game.

[BroncoWave]

One way to "rest him in anyway possible", is to gameplan to only throw 20-25 times per game.

That's fine with me. I have been liking our increased committment to running the ball in recent weeks. I'd just like to see the passing game start to take a bit more advantge of the D having to pay more attention to the run.

[jhildebrand]

The San Antonio Spurs are super boring to watch. You know when they don't mention that? :confused: When they are talking about all of the championships they've won! :coffee:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 5h

Charted all 20 Manning pass attempts. Only counted 4 "bad throws". One pick, one high-ball, two floaters. 16 other throws perfectly fine.

[Hawgdriver]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 5h

Charted all 20 Manning pass attempts. Only counted 4 "bad throws". One pick, one high-ball, two floaters. 16 other throws perfectly fine.

Figures only the bad ones would stick out and the truth is that he had an ordinary "off" day. Hopefully it gives Peyton some "shut 'em up" fuel for the stretch to come. That stuff burns high-octane in Manning's belly, and the vilification is tasty like chicken parm.

[LawDog]

Because I like the Broncos' passing game, and I think they've kind of given up on it the last three weeks.

Read the article that Carol linked - Broncos Rewind or something - it talks about how over the last three games the defenses against us are playing much more physical against our receivers - playing the hit not the ball, etc. Not sure how that plays into the game planning, but it would definitely affect the timing.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

(null)

That's great, Vic. How many of those "fine throws" were the bubble screens and the 2 passes that nearly got Sanders concussed/injured again?

Manning threw one really good pass, the deep ball to Welker. Other than that, he checked down. Even the pass that Tamme fumbled wasn't a good throw. It was high and behind Tamme who had to go up for it.

[Simple Jaded]

I vote that we get Kari Byron to get naked and put this myth to the test.

[silkamilkamonico]

Some interesting talk on the drive today about Manning. ELway flourished in his offense when TD came and the running game became strong. Thoughts out there with Manning is that he hasn't adjusted to the new offensive philosophy very well at all and he doesn't feel comfortable with it. It was kind of an interesting take and it would make sense to me if that is indeed what is happening.

[Northman]

Yes they did. And you said you agreed with them.

No, they only said it would probably be more beneficial to run from under center. They never said it "doesnt" work going from Shotgun. Not even close to the same thing.

[Northman]

Yeah but we're 3-0 over that stretch.

Bhwhahahahahahaha. BOOM!

[Northman]

That's great, Vic. How many of those "fine throws" were the bubble screens and the 2 passes that nearly got Sanders concussed/injured again?

Manning threw one really good pass, the deep ball to Welker. Other than that, he checked down. Even the pass that Tamme fumbled wasn't a good throw. It was high and behind Tamme who had to go up for it.

I was thinking the same thing.

[NightTrainLayne]

No, they only said it would probably be more beneficial to run from under center. They never said it "doesnt" work going from Shotgun. Not even close to the same thing.

Come on North, it was definitely intimated that running from under center was/would be more effective and that we needed to more of it.

I tend to agree, that in general, most offenses have more success running with the QB under center, but for the Broncos this year, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Northman]

Come on North, it was definitely intimated that running from under center was/would be more effective and that we needed to more of it.

I tend to agree, that in general, most offenses have more success running with the QB under center, but for the Broncos this year, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Yes, but wouldnt you agree that is only because Manning runs form the shotgun more than he does under center anyway? The stats have been put here in this thread and its actually quite close in terms of running from shotgun vs under center. But because Manning primarily goes from shotgun anyway wouldnt it make sense that it would show having more success at this point? I think the thing Mike was getting at is that the play action would probably work a bit better from under center. I never took that as it isnt working at all from shotgun.

[tripp]

That's great, Vic. How many of those "fine throws" were the bubble screens and the 2 passes that nearly got Sanders concussed/injured again?

Manning threw one really good pass, the deep ball to Welker. Other than that, he checked down. Even the pass that Tamme fumbled wasn't a good throw. It was high and behind Tamme who had to go up for it.

You think the deep ball to Sanders wasn't a good pass?

[MOtorboat]

No, they only said it would probably be more beneficial to run from under center. They never said it "doesnt" work going from Shotgun. Not even close to the same thing.

Except that's not what I said, and you know it. I don't know what you're disputing, frankly. Mike said there are drawbacks to running out of the shotgun. You said you agreed with him, along with others.

Numbers prove one of those drawbacks false, and I pointed that out.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

That's great, Vic. How many of those "fine throws" were the bubble screens and the 2 passes that nearly got Sanders concussed/injured again?

Manning threw one really good pass, the deep ball to Welker. Other than that, he checked down. Even the pass that Tamme fumbled wasn't a good throw. It was high and behind Tamme who had to go up for it.

You think the deep ball to Sanders wasn't a good pass?

Not really. Sanders had to go up and high point it with a Safety coming hard at him then he got decked. Great catch, but not necessarily a good pass. WRs take risks going over the middle, but the risk of injury goes up when he has to leave his feet and can't protect himself before an impending hit.

You can't keep hanging receivers out to dry and expect them to stay healthy.

[tripp]

Not really. Sanders had to go up and high point it with a Safety coming hard at him then he got decked. Great catch, but not necessarily a good pass. WRs take risks going over the middle, but the risk of injury goes up when he has to leave his feet and can't protect himself before an impending hit.

You can't keep hanging receivers out to dry and expect them to stay healthy.

I thought it was just as good of a pass as it was a catch. I didn't necessarily think he left Sanders out to dry on that 37 yard reception, I think Sanders saw the safety coming so he was able to embrace himself better than the other hit he took earlier. I think it amplifies the hit way more when the receiver is as small as Sanders. The ball could have been a bit further ahead of Sanders, I wouldn't say it was a bad pass, it wasn't a perfect pass, but it was a good pass.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Over the past few weeks Denver Broncos offensive coordinator Adam Gase has heard the chatter about his quarterback, Peyton Manning.

And he thinks it's a punch-line, really, only he's not laughing.

"It's comical to me," Gase said Thursday. "We heard the same thing about Tom Brady and he's been ripping the league apart pretty much since then. You never doubt players of this caliber, I know that."

Manning has been a topic of conversation around the league and across the Front Range during the Broncos' recent push to run the ball more. Despite needing just 90 passing yards for his 14th 4,000-yard passing season and the fact Manning is still tied for the league lead in touchdown passes, there has been some discussion about his health, his age and the Broncos' offense during what has still been a three-game win streak since the team's Nov. 16 loss in St. Louis.

rest - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/10606/adam-gase-finds-criticism-of-peyton-mannings-play-comical

comments by Elway also in article

[weazel]

Im just amazed people have enough time and patience to pour over the stats to get that much information about running from different formations and such. If I ever get to that point I think I will stop watching the game.

[jhildebrand]

It's probably time to throw a box of DCon on this thread and move along. :coffee:

[Runamok]

I think age is starting to catch up to him for sure. Take a look at Drew Brees this year if you want a see a QB on a sudden decline. I agree about being out of rhythm - one effect of the running game has been to disrupt Manning's timing. This is the same argument we had in reverse a few weeks ago; we couldn't run the ball because we only ran a few times a game and had no rhythm. Now that we're running a lot, we're pounding teams. I'd like to think the coaches can find a balance to the offense that will keep everyone in rhythm at the same time, and make us dangerous when the other team has no idea what's coming. Be interesting to see the SD game this week (should be nice weather, I think, but SD is 9th in total defense, 8th against the pass and 14th against the rush, so it's still no easy pickings)



I've been saying this for weeks. Some people here seem to think the run game will suffer with JT back, but I don't see it, at least as of now.

Whether there is something going on with Manning or not, ramping up a solid run game is a no-brainer. Defense helps win championships, but a well balanced offensive attack is crucial in the POs.

[Runamok]

You think the game was pathetic? I think it was a tough game and I expected it to be close because of the Bills defense.

Buffalo's no walk in the park. If they get a couple good upgrades on offense, like QB and RB, they could challenge NE in the East.

[Runamok]

Seriously. The overreaction in this thread is comical. I kinda expected it to be when I raised the point though. It's kinda impossible to speculate on Manning's career and when it might end without the legion of "Omg you're and idiot for declaring his career is over" posts. I've learned that people get really offended when you dare question the play of a popular player.

Only some people.

I asked a simple question in another thread to see what others thought about a possible tie-in between Manning's recent outings and the try-out of another QB this week and was accused of trolling. Like, posing a question about a topic that the media is openly discussing is idiotic? LOL

Like I said, maybe to some people.

[Runamok]

Watching that game yesterday, I'm not sure if the 9ers are that bad, or if the Raiders have found a spark with their new QB

The Raiders play hard, their record notwithstanding.

[Runamok]

Formation is irrelevant.

Anderson had 12 runs for 27 yards yesterday with a formation under center, that included 6 runs that either lost yardage or gained zero. He had nine runs from the shotgun, all gained positive yards, for 31 yards. He also had all three touchdowns out of the shotgun.

The only outlier in that idea is that Thompson's two big runs came from under center. So maybe the theory only applies to Hillman and Anderson, but from where I'm sitting formation is irrelevant in the running game, and the idea that you can't play action and that the running back sees better or that blockers block better with the quarterback under center is false. A good block is a good block.

Totally flawed logic. Doesn't pass the straight-face test.

Oh, sure, if formation were the only variable in every play, that argument might hold water. But, of course, it isn't, so espousing a POV that relies on formation as its base is way 'off base'. I'm sure we don't have to try to list all the other variables that affect the success or failure of any given play, but the point is obvious.

Using your logic, one might conclude that if Tamme catches 3 TD passes on Sunday, while DT, WW and JT catch 0, he is the best receiver on the team. LOL

[MOtorboat]

Only some people.

I asked a simple question in another thread to see what others thought about a possible tie-in between Manning's recent outings and the try-out of another QB this week and was accused of trolling. Like, posing a question about a topic that the media is openly discussing is idiotic? LOL

Like I said, maybe to some people.

Your question was asking if an FCS quarterback completely out of the league was brought in, in December to supplant a hall of fame quarterback.

It was a dumb question. But I didn't say that, I said there was nothing to see in it, and you've blown a gasket since.

I don't know what your problem is, but I'm not the one acting like a jerk right now.

[Simple Jaded]

I like when he's in the shot gun formation with CJ at his side. I believe CJ has stated he prefers that formation as he can see the protection better?

-1.

Btw, wtf is a strawman? Tia.

[mouthofsouth]

Peyton has one game where he does not throw a touchdown and people are ready to retire him. He has set the standard so high people expect him to always throw for 350 yards and 4 tds. It would be funny were it not so pathetic. The game plan seemed to be to run, run, run the ball. They will get more balanced now that they have established a running game.

[Nomad]

I don't care about Peyton's stats, he doesn't necessarily win every game when he throws for 300+yards and 4 touchdowns. I think the run game is refreshing and fun to watch and Peyton is taking advantage of it, but Peyton needs to curb the turnovers and folding like a lawn chair when pressured. That doesn't win games, especially in the playoffs.

BTW, the run game keeps the defense rested.

[weazel]

I think the teams problems scoring lately is more of a problem than Peyton not throwing the ball. They can't even run it into the endzone.