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Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 12:50 PM
I gotta be honest and say that I believe Welker is a complete non-factor on the football field right now. He can be covered by nearly anyone, and as a result, when Julius is out of the lineup...it's hindering our passing attack.

That being said, I also find it concerning (or whatever word that you want to use here), that our rookie WR hasn't seen the field more. THere are a TON of rookie WRs throughout the NFL that are providing HUGE benefits. Although he finally got a ball thrown to him this sunday, I find it bothersome that he hasn't shown enough to get on the field more...especially when Sanders was out. He can't beat out playing time of Caldwell??

Anyone else see that Welker is hurting our passing attack?

BroncoWave
12-02-2014, 12:53 PM
It's kinda weird with Welker right now. He is a non-factor like 90% of the time, but it seems like he comes up with one or two huge third down catches every game. I don't know that you can totally take him out of the lineup, but it does concern me as well how little latimer is playing. I really hope he is good.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 01:00 PM
It's kinda weird with Welker right now. He is a non-factor like 90% of the time, but it seems like he comes up with one or two huge third down catches every game. I don't know that you can totally take him out of the lineup, but it does concern me as well how little latimer is playing. I really hope he is good.

Yeah.. Welker seems to get that ONE catch a game that gets the first down. Seems when we throw at him a second time, its either too high, or just out of reach. There really seems to be a HUGE disconnect between Welker and Manning right now.

Latimer (couldn't remember his name)...I'm hoping the fact that we saw him IN the game this last week that we are getting him into some action. Can his speed add something to the slot? Can he even play the slot? I know he doesn't have the "nifty nohow" of Welker, but speed kills in the NFL (as long as they can at least run a decent rounte).

Buff
12-02-2014, 01:00 PM
Patriots fans want to advance this revisionist history where they cut bait on him at exactly the right moment. But let's not forget he caught 10 TDs and helped us beat NE in the AFC Championship game last year. So I feel like we got one more good year out of him...

That said, his production has completely fallen off a cliff this season. He just looks small and slow. He's not a step faster than DBs like he used to be, and he drops too many balls for a situational pass catcher. It's a little bit concerning that Latimer hasn't been able to get more playing time given how little we've gotten out of Welker... But I think in recent games the staff feels like Virgil Green and Paul Cornick are more valuable as additional blockers than either Welker or Latimer as pass catchers.

PatriotsGuy
12-02-2014, 01:06 PM
Patriots fans want to advance this revisionist history where they cut bait on him at exactly the right

I'll go with this :coffee: :lol:

WTE
12-02-2014, 01:11 PM
I'll go with this :coffee: :lol:

He was consistently 1st or 2nd in YAC w/ NE and dropped to 48th his first yr in Denver. Now he's pretty much near the bottom.

Northman
12-02-2014, 01:12 PM
I dont know if he is hurting the passing game, not much he can do when Manning is throwing passes for 14 ft receivers and into the ground. But Welker really isnt helping them either by getting the separation he used too. I too would like to see the young kid to see if at least he can make some plays. Cant really be any worse than Welker right now.

underrated29
12-02-2014, 01:12 PM
I actually think its the way gase is calling the offense.

If you remember last year we had a ton of passes short middle and seems. Crosses and slants too. Welker was one of the reads on those plays. This year we are not running those as much. We were running a lot of picks with the X an Y or TE, not with Wes. Now we are throwing a bunch of outs and sideline routes. Something mccoy did a ton of and I was not happy about.

I think Wes is the boss for the middle of the field. Finding the soft spot between the LBs and LOS or deeper between them and the safties. We just are not calling a bunch of those types of plays. Maybe when we got shut down by seattle, gase wanted to try something different. I do not know. BUT imo we are not calling those plays and wes is still the player he was for us last year.

Buff
12-02-2014, 01:14 PM
He was consistently 1st or 2nd in YAC w/ NE and dropped to 48th his first yr in Denver. Now he's pretty much near the bottom.

How was that New England passing game without Welker last year? Was Amendola racking up the YAC and TDs?

weazel
12-02-2014, 01:15 PM
i dont know if he is hurting the passing game, not much he can do when manning is throwing passes for 14 ft receivers and into the ground. But welker really isnt helping them either by getting the separation he used too. I too would like to see the young kid to see if at least he can make some plays. Cant really be any worse than welker right now.

this!

weazel
12-02-2014, 01:15 PM
I dont know if he is hurting the passing game, not much he can do when Manning is throwing passes for 14 ft receivers and into the ground. But Welker really isnt helping them either by getting the separation he used too. I too would like to see the young kid to see if at least he can make some plays. Cant really be any worse than Welker right now.

THIS! Welker is the least of the Broncos worries. Getting Manning to play in the cold is a pretty major problem, thank God for CJ

WTE
12-02-2014, 01:20 PM
How was that New England passing game without Welker last year? Was Amendola racking up the YAC and TDs?

Before I answer that I want to remind you NE did not "cut bait" with Welker as you implied. In fact, NE's offer was better than what he signed for in Denver.

Also, NE screwed up last year by having too many rookie receivers or receivers new to the system like Amendola. I think if Welker was w/ NE last yr he would have once again been tops in the league in YAC.

PatriotsGuy
12-02-2014, 01:22 PM
Before I answer that I want to remind you NE did not "cut bait" with Welker as you implied. In fact, NE's offer was better than what he signed for in Denver.



I wasn't going to remind Buff of this, as it screwed with his theory.

VonDoom
12-02-2014, 01:46 PM
I actually think its the way gase is calling the offense.

If you remember last year we had a ton of passes short middle and seems. Crosses and slants too. Welker was one of the reads on those plays. This year we are not running those as much. We were running a lot of picks with the X an Y or TE, not with Wes. Now we are throwing a bunch of outs and sideline routes. Something mccoy did a ton of and I was not happy about.

I think Wes is the boss for the middle of the field. Finding the soft spot between the LBs and LOS or deeper between them and the safties. We just are not calling a bunch of those types of plays. Maybe when we got shut down by seattle, gase wanted to try something different. I do not know. BUT imo we are not calling those plays and wes is still the player he was for us last year.

This is good analysis. I think that Welker is not the player he used to be, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire after this year. That being said, we're not trying to get him involved in the offense as much (I mean, it's not like he's targeted all the time and is missing passes) and it's probably due to the routes we're running, as you mentioned. I want to work the middle of the field more; I think it would be a nice compliment to our new found running game.

In any case, if we're not using Welker, we should at least try to get Latimer some touches. Remember, though, at best he would be a fourth option behind DT, Sanders and JT. Hopefully ahead of Caldwell, but I don't want him taking touches from those other guys.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 01:48 PM
I think Welker is still a good number 3 receiver, ideal when used, reliable for the occasional big play.

He is old, small and concussed (which i think makes him apprehensive going for the difficult catches) - but i think he still walks onto 31 other teams roster and plays his fair amount of snaps - happy he is here, but for the money we are paying him, he will be gone next year, and i am fine with that.

As for Latimer - he was looking good in preseason, i honestly think he will be similar to DT, big, strong and good after the catch.

He will get his turn - but when he is playing against DT and Sanders, he has no chance - JT or Welker as another option, he has no chance - and even caldwell knows the system and has had the trust of the coaches (although as this dwindles - Latimer will see more game time)

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 01:58 PM
I actually think its the way gase is calling the offense.

If you remember last year we had a ton of passes short middle and seems. Crosses and slants too. Welker was one of the reads on those plays. This year we are not running those as much. We were running a lot of picks with the X an Y or TE, not with Wes. Now we are throwing a bunch of outs and sideline routes. Something mccoy did a ton of and I was not happy about.

I think Wes is the boss for the middle of the field. Finding the soft spot between the LBs and LOS or deeper between them and the safties. We just are not calling a bunch of those types of plays. Maybe when we got shut down by seattle, gase wanted to try something different. I do not know. BUT imo we are not calling those plays and wes is still the player he was for us last year.

That leads to the question, what came first the chicken or the egg?

weazel
12-02-2014, 02:06 PM
This is good analysis. I think that Welker is not the player he used to be, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire after this year. That being said, we're not trying to get him involved in the offense as much (I mean, it's not like he's targeted all the time and is missing passes) and it's probably due to the routes we're running, as you mentioned. I want to work the middle of the field more; I think it would be a nice compliment to our new found running game.

In any case, if we're not using Welker, we should at least try to get Latimer some touches. Remember, though, at best he would be a fourth option behind DT, Sanders and JT. Hopefully ahead of Caldwell, but I don't want him taking touches from those other guys.

I dont think they want to get Welker killed crossing over the middle. They know each and everytime he gets hit he may end up a drooling zombie.

VonDoom
12-02-2014, 02:10 PM
I dont think they want to get Welker killed crossing over the middle. They know each and everytime he gets hit he may end up a drooling zombie.

Valid point, but even if we're not using Welker that way, we should be using other receivers over the middle. How many 3rd and 4 situations were we in where we tried long fade routes instead of short crossers?

weazel
12-02-2014, 02:14 PM
Valid point, but even if we're not using Welker that way, we should be using other receivers over the middle. How many 3rd and 4 situations were we in where we tried long fade routes instead of short crossers?

Need that type of receiver. DT is great in the quick slants with RAC and ES is too slight to be that guy I think, while the rest dont seem to be good enough to get the ball to. So who takes that spot?

Whats going to happen when JT and/or Ball get back? CJ or Ball going to be that type of player that can run a crossing router out of the backfield?

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 02:15 PM
Valid point, but even if we're not using Welker that way, we should be using other receivers over the middle. How many 3rd and 4 situations were we in where we tried long fade routes instead of short crossers?

yeah - those fades to tamme made me want to smoke crack

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 02:24 PM
That leads to the question, what came first the chicken or the egg?

Well that is easy, in evolutionary terms it was the egg

underrated29
12-02-2014, 02:32 PM
That leads to the question, what came first the chicken or the egg?




Manning.


The answer is always Peyton F'ing Manning!

Northman
12-02-2014, 02:40 PM
This is good analysis. I think that Welker is not the player he used to be, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire after this year. That being said, we're not trying to get him involved in the offense as much (I mean, it's not like he's targeted all the time and is missing passes) and it's probably due to the routes we're running, as you mentioned. I want to work the middle of the field more; I think it would be a nice compliment to our new found running game.

In any case, if we're not using Welker, we should at least try to get Latimer some touches. Remember, though, at best he would be a fourth option behind DT, Sanders and JT. Hopefully ahead of Caldwell, but I don't want him taking touches from those other guys.

Im not sure if i buy us not trying to get him involved, i think the fact that he cant get separation is part of the problem as too why we arent going to him much. Would do no good to try and force it to him if he's not open.

FanInAZ
12-02-2014, 02:45 PM
Well that is easy, in evolutionary terms it was the egg

So an egg crawled out of the ocean & eventually mutated into a chicken?

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 02:46 PM
Im not sure if i buy us not trying to get him involved, i think the fact that he cant get separation is part of the problem as too why we arent going to him much. Would do no good to try and force it to him if he's not open.

That's what I think.

I do think we are not throwing him the ball because he's not getting the separation. His head bob fake isn't working because he's lost such a step that its not creating difficulties. Perhaps we aren't calling the same routes for him, because he's already proved that he just doesn't create the mis-matches that is needed. It would seem, that if Welker were anywhere near like he was last year, he would definitely be getting the ball more often...especially when Sanders was out with injury, and especially now that Julius is hurt.

Timmy!
12-02-2014, 03:29 PM
I have a feeling we will start to see more of Welker in late December and January.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 03:35 PM
I have a feeling we will start to see more of Welker in late December and January.

I hope so.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 03:56 PM
So an egg crawled out of the ocean & eventually mutated into a chicken?

NO - an amphibian like creature crawled out of the ocean, laid an egg, which turned into land dwelling animals, which moved into trees, which turned into birds, which laid eggs, which turned into chickens, which then also laid eggs

Buff
12-02-2014, 03:59 PM
NO - an amphibian like creature crawled out of the ocean, laid an egg, which turned into land dwelling animals, which moved into trees, which turned into birds, which laid eggs, which turned into chickens, which then also laid eggs

Curt Schilling thinks you're full of shit.

BroncoJoe
12-02-2014, 04:01 PM
Not been impressed with Welker this year at all. It really seems he's either lost a step, or is not willing to take the big hit anymore.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 04:14 PM
Curt Schilling thinks you're full of shit.

That is because he is much clever than I

Northman
12-02-2014, 04:16 PM
Who's Curt Schlong?

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 04:20 PM
Who's Curt Schlong?

who cares - check out Emma's cleavage in your new avi!

Northman
12-02-2014, 04:39 PM
who cares - check out Emma's cleavage in your new avi!

I would let her play with my wand if she wanted too. #cliche lol

FanInAZ
12-02-2014, 04:42 PM
NO - an amphibian like creature crawled out of the ocean, laid an egg, which turned into land dwelling animals, which moved into trees, which turned into birds, which laid eggs, which turned into chickens, which then also laid eggs

I been thinking about my response, but It'd result in this thread getting hijacked & taken in a direction that's reserved for the religious section. Please repost your previous 2 posts, & my post in response to your 1st, in the "Evaluation" thread that was started there some time ago & I'll respond at my earliest convenience.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 04:47 PM
whilst i believe in evolution - my answers were only tongue in check to the chicken or the egg debate, neither of my replies were "digs" at religion - so i hope they were not taken that way.

That said, I am always happy to have one of your usual discourses FanInAz!!!

FanInAZ
12-02-2014, 04:54 PM
whilst i believe in evolution - my answers were only tongue in check to the chicken or the egg debate, neither of my replies were "digs" at religion - so i hope they were not taken that way.

That said, I am always happy to have one of your usual discourses FanInAz!!!

I figured that. Nevertheless, I did actually watch part of a science program that claims that its a provable fact that the egg came 1st. I'd love to challenge anyone who actually believe that its a provable fact.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 05:22 PM
Valid point, but even if we're not using Welker that way, we should be using other receivers over the middle. How many 3rd and 4 situations were we in where we tried long fade routes instead of short crossers?

That's a Manning thing. He does that a lot. 3rd and 3, and he'll try the deep ball down the sideline to a TE. Did it against the Patriots and I jumped up pissed...only to see the perfect pass completed with the perfect catch for a TD. However, for every one of those, we've seen 6 fall incomplete and having to punt. I just can't understand why we go for the hard deep ball on 3rd and 3 instead of complete just ANY pass to get the first down.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2014, 05:23 PM
I figured that. Nevertheless, I did actually watch part of a science program that claims that its a provable fact that the egg came 1st. I'd love to challenge anyone who actually believe that its a provable fact.

Well.. the difference there is that they are using facts to prove something, and being challenged on facts is what being a "provable" fact is about.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-02-2014, 05:27 PM
That's a Manning thing. He does that a lot. 3rd and 3, and he'll try the deep ball down the sideline to a TE. Did it against the Patriots and I jumped up pissed...only to see the perfect pass completed with the perfect catch for a TD. However, for every one of those, we've seen 6 fall incomplete and having to punt. I just can't understand why we go for the hard deep ball on 3rd and 3 instead of complete just ANY pass to get the first down.

I like the deep ball...on 2nd and 3.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 05:31 PM
I like the deep ball...on 2nd and 3.

I like going balls deep

BroncoWave
12-02-2014, 05:33 PM
Valid point, but even if we're not using Welker that way, we should be using other receivers over the middle. How many 3rd and 4 situations were we in where we tried long fade routes instead of short crossers?

That's a Manning thing. He does that a lot. 3rd and 3, and he'll try the deep ball down the sideline to a TE. Did it against the Patriots and I jumped up pissed...only to see the perfect pass completed with the perfect catch for a TD. However, for every one of those, we've seen 6 fall incomplete and having to punt. I just can't understand why we go for the hard deep ball on 3rd and 3 instead of complete just ANY pass to get the first down.

It seriously pisses me off how often we run the deep fade on third down. There is no way we convert that more than 10% of the time. Just makes no sense to me.

Valar Morghulis
12-02-2014, 05:34 PM
It seriously pisses me off how often we run the deep fade on third down. There is no way we convert that more than 10% of the time. Just makes no sense to me.

It's a bit like our screen game. We still run it so often, teams just eat it up at the LOS.

BroncoWave
12-02-2014, 05:41 PM
It seriously pisses me off how often we run the deep fade on third down. There is no way we convert that more than 10% of the time. Just makes no sense to me.

It's a bit like our screen game. We still run it so often, teams just eat it up at the LOS.

I really wish we had a bright offensive mind like Josh McDaniels calling our plays.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-02-2014, 05:42 PM
It seriously pisses me off how often we run the deep fade on third down. There is no way we convert that more than 10% of the time. Just makes no sense to me.

Because the first few times we did it teams weren't expecting it.....after the 10th time it wasn't so much of a surprise.

Runamok
12-02-2014, 05:49 PM
Patriots fans want to advance this revisionist history where they cut bait on him at exactly the right moment. But let's not forget he caught 10 TDs and helped us beat NE in the AFC Championship game last year. So I feel like we got one more good year out of him...

That said, his production has completely fallen off a cliff this season. He just looks small and slow. He's not a step faster than DBs like he used to be, and he drops too many balls for a situational pass catcher. It's a little bit concerning that Latimer hasn't been able to get more playing time given how little we've gotten out of Welker... But I think in recent games the staff feels like Virgil Green and Paul Cornick are more valuable as additional blockers than either Welker or Latimer as pass catchers.

I have felt that Welker just doesn't look like Welker. His face looks puffy, and I don't think it's just the oversized helmet. Maybe he's taken too many head shots and they have started to accumulate and slowed him down. I'm a bit worried for his health.

silkamilkamonico
12-02-2014, 05:51 PM
I agree that Welker hasn't looked the same. At the same time I fear what Julius Thomas coming back will do for our run game. Unless we line him out in Welkers spot which is fine by me but IMO the addition of Green and Tamme in the lineup blocking has helped make the run game. Tamme isn't a very good run blocker but he is much better than Thomas who is atrocious.

FanInAZ
12-02-2014, 06:29 PM
Well.. the difference there is that they are using facts to prove something, and being challenged on facts is what being a "provable" fact is about.

Your assuming that they have actual irrefutable evidence that conclusively proves something that no one was around to witness & document.

DenBronx
12-02-2014, 06:43 PM
I never thought Welker would fall off the map like this in just 1 year. He did pretty good last year I thought being the #3 guy but maybe the concussions caused the downgraded play? He doesnt look the same anymore.

But he has been clutch on 3rd downs at times. Maybe we will see more of him down the stretch.

Northman
12-02-2014, 06:44 PM
I agree that Welker hasn't looked the same. At the same time I fear what Julius Thomas coming back will do for our run game. Unless we line him out in Welkers spot which is fine by me but IMO the addition of Green and Tamme in the lineup blocking has helped make the run game. Tamme isn't a very good run blocker but he is much better than Thomas who is atrocious.

Thats actually not a bad idea. I would love to see that considering right now Thomas i more of a threat than Welker at this point.

OrangeHoof
12-02-2014, 06:48 PM
Anyone else see that Welker is hurting our passing attack?

Not at all. Tamme is hurting our passing attack more cause he's not catching anything.

With Welker, you have to accept that he's never going to be what he was. But he still has outstanding hands that defenses have to respect. If he drifts around the first down sticks and defenses don't cover him, he'll make the catch unlike Tamme or Caldwell. He'll make at least one big reception in the playoffs. I guarantee it. But after that I hope he retires for the sake of his health.

But, no, Welker's not the problem. Should Lattimer get more looks? I'm fine with that. Manning has always been an EEOC quarterback. All he cares is if you ass is open and whether you can hang onto his throws. He's never been buddy/buddy with a guy that wasn't open.

Buff
12-02-2014, 06:53 PM
I agree that Welker hasn't looked the same. At the same time I fear what Julius Thomas coming back will do for our run game. Unless we line him out in Welkers spot which is fine by me but IMO the addition of Green and Tamme in the lineup blocking has helped make the run game. Tamme isn't a very good run blocker but he is much better than Thomas who is atrocious.

Yesterday Schlereth was talking about how it will present a challenge to the defense if the Broncos come out with a 3 TE set when Thomas comes back.

They've been using Cornick/Green/Tamme, which has been helpful, but it also signals to other teams to load the box when that personnel comes on... If you brought in Cornick, Green and Thomas instead of Tamme, then all of the sudden they'd have to honor the run and the pass.

OrangeHoof
12-02-2014, 07:21 PM
It seriously pisses me off how often we run the deep fade on third down. There is no way we convert that more than 10% of the time. Just makes no sense to me.

I'd rather see that than the 3rd-and-8 pass for four yards and expecting the receiver to pick up the rest.

Magnificent Seven
12-02-2014, 07:41 PM
Broncos use Welker for 3rd downs and red zones. That's all.

weazel
12-03-2014, 01:53 PM
Yesterday Schlereth was talking about how it will present a challenge to the defense if the Broncos come out with a 3 TE set when Thomas comes back.

They've been using Cornick/Green/Tamme, which has been helpful, but it also signals to other teams to load the box when that personnel comes on... If you brought in Cornick, Green and Thomas instead of Tamme, then all of the sudden they'd have to honor the run and the pass.

I think that is true in theory but Tamme and Green have to be able to catch a pass in order for the opposition to honor it.

NightTrainLayne
12-03-2014, 02:04 PM
I think that is true in theory but Tamme and Green have to be able to catch a pass in order for the opposition to honor it.

I think the threat of JT catching a TD is enough.