Offensive strategy against Kansas City

[MOtorboat]

I know everyone has fallen in love with the running game this week, and especially after the poor rushing performance at St. Louis, but I think Denver needs to utterly reverse strategy against Kansas City.

Kansas City's offense is built to get a lead and maintain it, not to come from behind. I think Denver needs to come out firing in three- and four-wide sets and blitz the Kansas City defense through the air to try to get an early lead. Denver needs to set a completely different tone against Kansas City. One that has worked the past few years against the Chiefs defense too. I have confidence in Manning's and the offensive line's ability to not allow Houston and Hali to get to Manning that I think this strategy would be the best way to handle this game.

Sure, keep the running game in mind, and even run the six offensive line set later in the game, when you have a lead. Early, Denver should come out firing.

[Timmy!]

Without Berry, they are going to be hurting.

[MOtorboat]

Without Berry, they are going to be hurting.

And they've pieced together a cornerback position too. Let both studs they have go. Idiotic mistake. You don't let cover corners leave, especially two of them. Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr.

[tripp]

I know everyone has fallen in love with the running game this week, and especially after the poor rushing performance at St. Louis, but I think Denver needs to utterly reverse strategy against Kansas City.

Kansas City's offense is built to get a lead and maintain it, not to come from behind. I think Denver needs to come out firing in three- and four-wide sets and blitz the Kansas City defense through the air to try to get an early lead. Denver needs to set a completely different tone against Kansas City. One that has worked the past few years against the Chiefs defense too. I have confidence in Manning's and the offensive line's ability to not allow Houston and Hali to get to Manning that I think this strategy would be the best way to handle this game.

Sure, keep the running game in mind, and even run the six offensive line set later in the game, when you have a lead. Early, Denver should come out firing.


Agreed. I don't think the Chiefs are made to come back from being down 10 pts or more. They're a running team who utilizes their TE's. Stop the run, force Alex Smith to throw to his receivers and I think we have a shot.

[Northman]

Disagree entirely.

In the first meeting this year Denver jumped out to a 21-10 halftime lead only to have issues scoring and running the ball to kill clock, etc. With our Oline being pretty much Jeckyl and Hyde i think its imperative right now that we do everything possible to keep them from pinning their ears back and bum rushing Manning. This is also the time of year where weather starts to play a bigger role than normal. You have to remember, this isnt last year's team where we are scoring at will on teams. I think if we go into this game treating it like we did vs the Rams we will lose unless we are able to run the ball and do it effectively. No matter the QB, if you can run the ball it makes play action and throwing that much easier and more deadly.

[PatriotsGuy]

I know everyone has fallen in love with the running game this week, and especially after the poor rushing performance at St. Louis, but I think Denver needs to utterly reverse strategy against Kansas City.

Kansas City's offense is built to get a lead and maintain it, not to come from behind. I think Denver needs to come out firing in three- and four-wide sets and blitz the Kansas City defense through the air to try to get an early lead. Denver needs to set a completely different tone against Kansas City. One that has worked the past few years against the Chiefs defense too. I have confidence in Manning's and the offensive line's ability to not allow Houston and Hali to get to Manning that I think this strategy would be the best way to handle this game.

Sure, keep the running game in mind, and even run the six offensive line set later in the game, when you have a lead. Early, Denver should come out firing.

So in other words, gameplan for the opponent? :p

[Buff]

I don't totally disagree, but I think this mentality is kind of what gets this offense in trouble. Just because we like our match-ups against their secondary doesn't necessarily mean that our o-line is good enough to support that gameplan.

I think we need to force some balance into the gameplan early, because if things go awry early with the passing game then it's hard to throw yourself back into a rhythm and you can get forced into a one-dimensional gameplan.



I have confidence in Manning's and the offensive line's ability to not allow Houston and Hali to get to Manning that I think this strategy would be the best way to handle this game.

Also... I guess I don't totally share this confidence.

[tubby]

Apparently, according to my KFC fan friends, Denver is going to have to triple team Poe. So there's that....

[Ravage!!!]

KC has a very good front four that can and will put pressure on Manning without blitzing. Despite losing their top corners (and safety again), they have posted one of the top pass defenses in the NFL... and that is due to the pressure they can put on the QB.

So, expect Manning to run the ball early to try and slow that rush down. However, MO is right... Seattle came out running. Wilson isn't the guy that they want passing the ball 30+ times a game, so they ran ran ran... and couldn't stop the run...at all. Considering they have one of the top RBs in the NFL (possibly the best at the moment).. they will have long sustained drives when they are on offense.

As MO said, we MUST attack their corners... and score quickly on them. THeir stadium is the loudest in the NFL, expect that to be a problem early as the more they are out of the game, the more that becomes managble. Hopefully Manning and the WRs are on the same page, as that noise will make changing plays difficult. We will absolutely come out running the ball....and we will stall in the first drive because of it.

Getting their offense off the field so that they don't have 8 minute drives will be a HUGE need for us.

[BroncoJoe]

However we do it, we need to score early and get at least a 10 point lead quickly. I'm kind of hoping we get the ball first - even if we win the coin toss. The best thing to do to them after losing to the Raiders is get an early lead.

[Northman]

KC has a very good front four that can and will put pressure on Manning without blitzing. Despite losing their top corners (and safety again), they have posted one of the top pass defenses in the NFL... and that is due to the pressure they can put on the QB.

So, expect Manning to run the ball early to try and slow that rush down. However, MO is right... Seattle came out running. Wilson isn't the guy that they want passing the ball 30+ times a game, so they ran ran ran... and couldn't stop the run...at all. Considering they have one of the top RBs in the NFL (possibly the best at the moment).. they will have long sustained drives when they are on offense.

As MO said, we MUST attack their corners... and score quickly on them. THeir stadium is the loudest in the NFL, expect that to be a problem early as the more they are out of the game, the more that becomes managble. Hopefully Manning and the WRs are on the same page, as that noise will make changing plays difficult. We will absolutely come out running the ball....and we will stall in the first drive because of it.

Getting their offense off the field so that they don't have 8 minute drives will be a HUGE need for us.

Seattle's issue wasnt their gameplan, it was that they didnt take care of the ball. They could of very easily won that game.

[Ziggy]

Passing the ball wins games. Running the ball and stopping the run wins championships.

[OrangeHoof]

Last year at KC, we won with runs and then deep posts to Decker. I think we will try a similar formula. The DL is healthier than last year but their secondary is ailing and we have the ability to flood a zone with four weapons they can't possibly contain. As long as we run well enough that they have to respect it, I expect the offensive to run some iso routes principally with Sanders and J. Thomas.

[OB]

Score more points than they do :D

[Ravage!!!]

Score more points than they do :D

You know.. when you think about it, it's really just that simple.

[OB]

What can I say, I'm an offensive genius

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I actually think we need to run the ball. KC is 26th vs the run but 1st vs the pass. Trying pass early plays right into their strength. IIRC, Ball had his best rushing game of the season vs KC.

[VonDoom]

I actually think we need to run the ball. KC is 26th vs the run but 1st vs the pass. Trying pass early plays right into their strength. IIRC, Ball had his best rushing game of the season vs KC.

I posted this in another thread, so obviously I agree. I see MO's point, but why play into their strengths as a defense? Their secondary isn't great (especially now with Berry out) but their pass rush is good and Manning has been rattled behind a shaky line lately. As mentioned, KC is 26th against the run this year, allowing over 129 YPG. They are the worst rushing defense we've faced all year (the Raiders are currently 25th, and we've played teams ranked 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th and 11th, just to name a few; oh, and Buffalo is 8th and we have them next week) and we're coming off of our best game on the ground. Why not take it to them to exploit an obvious weakness? If they man up and stack the box, THEN let Manning torch them.

[Cugel]

I actually think we need to run the ball. KC is 26th vs the run but 1st vs the pass. Trying pass early plays right into their strength. IIRC, Ball had his best rushing game of the season vs KC.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone notice this simple fact. :coffee:

They need to keep the OL in an aggressive posture. Now, they don't need 50-50 balance, but they do need to run effectively.

[Simple Jaded]

Is Marcus Cooper playing? He's really struggled vs Denver, any gameplan should heavily include matchups that test his progress. If you have to run to get him in favorable matchups then you have to run.

[Nomad]

However we do it, we need to score early and get at least a 10 point lead quickly. I'm kind of hoping we get the ball first - even if we win the coin toss. The best thing to do to them after losing to the Raiders is get an early lead.

I agree.

[underrated29]

The games we have won decidedly we have ran the ball well.


Kc sucks on the sidelines. I would start the game with a lot of in breaking routes, passes to the middle of the field and runs to the outside. By doing so we should, as we always have against kc with manning, be able to take them over the top down the sid lines. Decker has lit kc up that at, manny s is faster and catches the ball better. And DT has burn d them I. The red zone. I agree with mo to pass in redZone and pass - especially down the sidelines. But I hink it all meds to be set up via runs outside (to get the CBS to bite) and passes to the short middle to bring the safeties in.

[Cugel]

KC has a very good front four that can and will put pressure on Manning without blitzing. Despite losing their top corners (and safety again), they have posted one of the top pass defenses in the NFL... and that is due to the pressure they can put on the QB.

So, expect Manning to run the ball early to try and slow that rush down. However, MO is right... Seattle came out running. Wilson isn't the guy that they want passing the ball 30+ times a game, so they ran ran ran... and couldn't stop the run...at all. Considering they have one of the top RBs in the NFL (possibly the best at the moment).. they will have long sustained drives when they are on offense.

As MO said, we MUST attack their corners... and score quickly on them. THeir stadium is the loudest in the NFL, expect that to be a problem early as the more they are out of the game, the more that becomes managble. Hopefully Manning and the WRs are on the same page, as that noise will make changing plays difficult. We will absolutely come out running the ball....and we will stall in the first drive because of it.

Getting their offense off the field so that they don't have 8 minute drives will be a HUGE need for us.

This is all accurate. The problem for the Broncos offense this season compared with last year has been that defenses have ignored the run and concentrated on getting quick pressure right in Peyton Manning's face. Then they keep 5 defenders in the box, try and rush four and have single coverage on the outside. If they can generate a quick pass rush up the middle and get in Peyton's face in 2 seconds then the Broncos offense stalls.

That's what the Rams did and that's what Miami wanted to do. The Chiefs have another excellent defense and are the NFL's #1 pass defense (better than Seattle's at 198 yards/game). They are #26 against the run though, so they can be gashed with the run.

Remember that Miami had the #4 pass defense and KC is tied with them for 4th in sacks.

The biggest weaknesses for the Chiefs are:

#1 They have generated fewer takeaways (8 total on the season) than any other team but the Jets. They have only 10 turnovers or they would win a lot fewer games. But, their defense just doesn't get many turnovers.

#2 Their WRs have not caught a TD pass yet this season. That's a huge liability. They're 31st in passing offense.

When the Broncos are on Offense: The reason that Demaryius Thomas and the Broncos receivers were so wide open in the 4th quarter when the team scored 22 points was that the Dolphins defense was out of gas and had to worry about stopping the run. So, suddenly the safeties come up towards the line on play-action passes leaving guys like D.T. all alone.

Those plays don't work if the defense doesn't respect the run. Establishing the run is key.

Now, KC can't run away from anybody with their offense. They are 31st in pass offense and 4th in rushing with 136 yards a game. So, the Broncos can afford to be patient and keep running the ball.

Even if it's not terribly successful in the 1st half, they will still be in the game.

But, to keep defenders from getting right in Peyton's face all game they have to commit to having balance and that means success running the ball.

It's getting on towards January where the teams that can win in the playoffs are the teams that can run the ball and stop the run.

It's true that the Broncos more than most teams rely on passing to win. But, the run is KEY to having a successful passing game. And commitment to the run is key for the OL to have the confidence and determination to be good at it. Rushing is something that works better when you emphasize and concentrate on it.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by BroncoJoe View Post
However we do it, we need to score early and get at least a 10 point lead quickly. I'm kind of hoping we get the ball first - even if we win the coin toss. The best thing to do to them after losing to the Raiders is get an early lead.


That might be the ideal, but it's not likely to happen. Denver is going to try and run the ball down their throats and KC will feature Jamal Charles on first, second and probably 3rd down. It's going to be an old-school smash-mouth football game where the teams try to establish physical dominance over each other.

That probably means it will be low scoring through 3 quarters. The Broncos hope that they can establish the run so that KC's safeties will bite on play action and D.T. and Sanders can get open over the top of their coverage. But, that probably means a few three and outs.

And KC's offense will grind it up and down the field and try and wear down the Broncos D by running it right at them.

It's huge that Brandon Marshall is going to play in this game, since he's their leading tackler.

[Northman]

I think the answer is clear after what we have done tonight.

[MOtorboat]

I think the answer is clear after what we have done tonight.

That Denver allowed Kansas City to hang around by not stepping on the gas pedal and throwing the football more?

Then we agree.

[Northman]

That Denver allowed Kansas City to hang around by not stepping on the gas pedal and throwing the football more?

Then we agree.

No way that was going to happen with the way Manning threw the ball tonight. Had we done it your way we probably would of lost tonight.

[OrangeHoof]

Is Marcus Cooper playing? He's really struggled vs Denver, any gameplan should heavily include matchups that test his progress. If you have to run to get him in favorable matchups then you have to run.

Cooper hardly played but his special teams gaffe cost them anyway.

[Simple Jaded]

Cooper hardly played but his special teams gaffe cost them anyway.

Was classic, poor ******.

[Ziggy]

That Denver allowed Kansas City to hang around by not stepping on the gas pedal and throwing the football more?

Then we agree.

The Broncos ran the ball up and down the field tonight......until they got into the red zone. Hence the 5 field goals. Gase went to passing in the red zone, and the offense fell apart down there. That's the real reason KC was allowed to hang around. The run game dominated and crushed KC's will. Look at time of possession. If Gase sticks with what is working down in the red zone as well, this game is a blowout.

[Simple Jaded]

Chefs loaded up vs the run in red zone, Justin Houston, DT and Tamme took care of it from there.

[Cugel]

What lost the Chiefs this game is that they did not come out and establish the run with Jamal Charles in the first half. By the time they tried to get him going, they were too far down and reduced to trying to pass the ball. Only they don't have any weapons at all in the passing game. Usually teams have one guy who is a serious threat, but KC hasn't thrown a TD pass to a WR all season.

Notice their passing TD went to a TE who for some insane reason was being covered by a LB right down the middle of the field.

But, that team is just not built to come back from more than 10 points down.

[Hawgdriver]

Mo I think you whiffed on this one amigo. I am happy to see some of the weight being shifted from Manning's shoulders. I agree though that this team doesn't win in January without more balance...they are running too much! :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

What lost the Chiefs this game is that they did not come out and establish the run with Jamal Charles in the first half. By the time they tried to get him going, they were too far down and reduced to trying to pass the ball. Only they don't have any weapons at all in the passing game. Usually teams have one guy who is a serious threat, but KC hasn't thrown a TD pass to a WR all season.

Notice their passing TD went to a TE who for some insane reason was being covered by a LB right down the middle of the field.

But, that team is just not built to come back from more than 10 points down.

Why wouldn't the LB cover the TE down the middle of the field???

[GEM]

Luckily the afterglow on Bowe has cooled the last couple seasons, he is not top notch in this league. He shouldn't be mentioned with the more successful wr's, he's lazy and can't be counted on.

[weazel]

Good thing the run game worked... Manning couldn't hit a receiver to save his life in the second half.

[Cugel]

Why wouldn't the LB cover the TE down the middle of the field???

Because he's their only receiving threat and should be covered by a Safety?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The only two problems I had with last night's game plan was that once the run was established and KC had to respect it, we didn't capitalize with the passing scheme. What I mean by that is using play action.

There were so many instances where I thought play action would work (2nd and 4 for instance) but we just didn't use it. On the few occasions we did, it was a half hearted effort where Manning just quickly stuck his arm out to his side but never really tried to sell it (didn't actually act like he was gonna hand off). Then on 3rd downs we'd often empty the backfield thereby eliminating even the possibility of play action. I thought KC was primed for it in the second half, particularly in the red zone, but we never even tried to use it. If they wanted to pass in the redzone, it's often easier after a good play action fake.

The second thing that had me scratching my head are the deep fade routes on 3rd and manageable. They just didn't make sense. Quick, accurate passing is usually how you convert on 3rd and medium but if Peyton saw single coverage, he'd just go for it all - even with the swirling winds. It was kinda frustrating. There were a couple of times he just threw it too early, with no pressure on him from the pass rush and didn't allow his receivers time to get free and look for the ball. KC was pressing the receivers pretty hard which opened them up for the big play but we never capitalized because Peyton looked impatient to get the ball out. I think he sped up the clock in his head anticipating a pass rush that just wasn't as relentless as he expected. Like when he overthrew Sanders on that 3rd down or didn't give DT any time to react to the quick slant that would've been a big play.

[Cugel]

Key Stat of the Game:

Manning 17 of 34 attempts for 179 yards, 2 TDs
C.J. Anderson & Jawan Thompson 42 rushes for 207 yards

When was the last time you saw that kind of stat in the Peyton Manning era?

This was the kind of game the Broncos would have lost the last 2 years because it's cold and windy and Peyton doesn't do cold & windy. He missed wide open receivers like Emanuel Sanders several times tonight. Jacob Tamme stops short on a sure-fire TD pass and the Broncos settle for a FG. Their drives stalled 5 times in the red zone.

Yet they win going away. That's physical domination. You don't have to fire on all cylinders to win. Just beat the man in front of you and run the ball and then on 3rd and 7 or 3rd and 11 you throw downfield.

Remember that this KC defense is #2 in the NFL in passing yardage and Miami is currently #1. Denver has beaten the two top pass defenses by running the ball for over 400 yards! And they've won WITHOUT Peyton playing particularly well.

Denver last year was 100% Peyton, just like John Elway during the Dan Reeves era. When they got to the SB it was either John Elway has a A+ day or they lose. And against really good teams that's too much pressure.

Hopefully C.J. can continue, because Andy Reid deliberately said they were not going to try and stop C.J., they were going to try and force the Broncos to beat them with the run. Every team has been doing that. Now they're going to have to sit up and take notice that that approach won't work anymore!

[VonDoom]

The only two problems I had with last night's game plan was that once the run was established and KC had to respect it, we didn't capitalize with the passing scheme. What I mean by that is using play action.

There were so many instances where I thought play action would work (2nd and 4 for instance) but we just didn't use it. On the few occasions we did, it was a half hearted effort where Manning just quickly stuck his arm out to his side but never really tried to sell it (didn't actually act like he was gonna hand off). Then on 3rd downs we'd often empty the backfield thereby eliminating even the possibility of play action. I thought KC was primed for it in the second half, particularly in the red zone, but we never even tried to use it. If they wanted to pass in the redzone, it's often easier after a good play action fake.

The second thing that had me scratching my head are the deep fade routes on 3rd and manageable. They just didn't make sense. Quick, accurate passing is usually how you convert on 3rd and medium but if Peyton saw single coverage, he'd just go for it all - even with the swirling winds. It was kinda frustrating. There were a couple of times he just threw it too early, with no pressure on him from the pass rush and didn't allow his receivers time to get free and look for the ball. KC was pressing the receivers pretty hard which opened them up for the big play but we never capitalized because Peyton looked impatient to get the ball out. I think he sped up the clock in his head anticipating a pass rush that just wasn't as relentless as he expected. Like when he overthrew Sanders on that 3rd down or didn't give DT any time to react to the quick slant that would've been a big play.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The long fade routes came up in the game thread, and it was really weird to watch. Where were our short crossing routes or even the bubble screens? Chucking it into a swirling wind was probably not the best idea. These were situations where we would have used Welker in the past, but he's basically disappeared. Julius would have been huge in those spots as well, so hopefully he's back soon.

And watching the game in real time, there were definitely sequences where I said out loud, "Now would be a good time for a play action pass." The run game was working great, but we can't run it on EVERY play. There was definitely one in the second half where we had 2nd and 6 or something, where a short play action pass would have worked wonders. Instead, we handed off and CJ was massacred for a three or four yard loss. Game planning to run is one thing, but going run/run/pass on every series isn't going to fool anyone in the long run.

[weazel]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The long fade routes came up in the game thread, and it was really weird to watch. Where were our short crossing routes or even the bubble screens? Chucking it into a swirling wind was probably not the best idea. These were situations where we would have used Welker in the past, but he's basically disappeared. Julius would have been huge in those spots as well, so hopefully he's back soon.

And watching the game in real time, there were definitely sequences where I said out loud, "Now would be a good time for a play action pass." The run game was working great, but we can't run it on EVERY play. There was definitely one in the second half where we had 2nd and 6 or something, where a short play action pass would have worked wonders. Instead, we handed off and CJ was massacred for a three or four yard loss. Game planning to run is one thing, but going run/run/pass on every series isn't going to fool anyone in the long run.

If Julius is playing, the run game will disappear.

[underrated29]

The games we have won decidedly we have ran the ball well.


Kc sucks on the sidelines. I would start the game with a lot of in breaking routes, passes to the middle of the field and runs to the outside. By doing so we should, as we always have against kc with manning, be able to take them over the top down the sid lines. Decker has lit kc up that at, manny s is faster and catches the ball better. And DT has burn d them I. The red zone. I agree with mo to pass in redZone and pass - especially down the sidelines. But I hink it all meds to be set up via runs outside (to get the CBS to bite) and passes to the short middle to bring the safeties in.



Pretty darn close to what we did last night. It looks like we would have been better served running right at them a bit more in redzone. We also never did play action whihch was extremely bizarre. I liked the shots down the sidelines. They were there. Manny beat his guy several times and even cody lat had his guy....Manning just overthrew all of them, each time.


For the game against the Bills, I think we need to use the RB screen several times. I also hope we work the middle of the field more on quick 5-7 yard passes. They have a really good defense. Really Good! I think if we can work them on quick hits in the middle itll keep the LBs off the LOS and the Safties from jumping the routes.


that will make running the ball easier and hopefully allow us to stretch the field vertically. Its going to be tough as they have a great defense. We must must must give manning time though. Thats why I like the RB screen. Itll keep their defense from bringing the heat.

[VonDoom]

If Julius is playing, the run game will disappear.

I doubt that. There's no reason we can't run two TE sets with JT and Green. We might not use Cornick as the 6th OL very often at that point, but Thomas is not the utter liability that some of you make him out to be. He's an offensive mismatch and will be a big help on the field, especially in the red zone, where we were pretty poor last night.

We'll need the running game if and when we see the Pats again, but I saw somewhere today that the Pats are 30th in DVOA when defending TE's. We have one of the best offensive TE's in the game.

[DenBronx]

So 2 wins against tough teams, both doing very well on defense and Manning played poor.

Think the running game helped now? 400 yards rushing anyone??? Helllllllllllloooooo? McFlyyyyyy? Anybody home?