Schlereth on O-line: "They need to fire them all and start over"

[Buff]

Schlereth's radio interview last night was kind of a must-listen IMO. If nothing else, I think he correctly identified that we actually have more of a personnel issue that we'd like to admit. Klis wrote a story on it today - http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_26969113/stink-knows-mark-schlereth-says-broncos-o-line

He also kind of debunks this myth that Orlando Franklin needs to go back to RT and everything will be better. I liked this quote about last year:



"This is where stats lie — I think the Broncos lead the league with the least sacks allowed at 11. That's all Peyton Manning, 100 percent, getting rid of the football. They have to be more talented with schemes and getting guys open, because at this point, they can't block their way out of a wet paper sack."

Anyway - this is kind of beating a dead horse... But I think hearing Schlereth put things in perspective just how dire and awful the situation is up front.

[Ravage!!!]

We've always said that a good QB will make any OL better. We knew Manning was helping them last year, but I certainly didn't see it being THIS bad last year. IT wasn't this bad last year. I don't know what's changed, but bring in the a-hole.. and lets move things around until we find a "comfortable" fix.

[Valar Morghulis]

Everytime I think on schlereth I picture Charlie sheen in 2 1/2 men..

[Ravage!!!]

Everytime I think on schlereth I picture Charlie sheen in 2 1/2 men..

Seriously? why?

[Valar Morghulis]

Seriously? why?

I just picture him as a womanizing, partying dude with a care free attitude - and funky clothes

[BroncoJoe]

Thank God UR is recovering from surgery.

[Timmy!]

Joel book in 4, 3, 2........

[Dapper Dan]

According to the former players we probably need new players and new coaches. I wonder if they all just want their jobs back

[Joel]

We can put it in the pile with Mark Jacksons, Nick Fergusons and Brian Dawkins'. No TRUE Bronco would EVER criticize our line or any other part of the team; don't be so negative, Stink.

[Joel]

Joel book in 4, 3, 2........
What can I say that I haven't already? What good would it do or difference would it make? It is what it is; if blaming me for being right helps folks sleep better, fine, but that changes nothing either.


According to the former players we probably need new players and new coaches. I wonder if they all just want their jobs back
As some have noted, I'm neither a former player nor coach, yet have said the same thing far longer, so that dog won't hunt.

[Krugan]

I dont think anyone is claiming the move of franklin "will make it all better".

Will it fix something? Its hard to say without trying, considering we are on our 3rd RT, it cant hurt to put last years starter back there.

Im not sure bringing in a guy who hasnt played in a year and is a freaking nut job is an answer either, but could it really be any worse?

[Timmy!]

if blaming me for being right helps folks sleep better, fine, but that changes nothing either.


http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/llama-stare-gif.gif

[Joel]

Careful: Asking "how could it get worse?" is how we wound up with Franklin at LG and TBD at RT. It can ALWAYS get worse, even if it's hard to see how right now. But I have faith our coaches can find a way to screw up even the most idiotproof championship scenario. All that said, Franklin's a known commodity at RT, his multiple successors so far are part of why our line's inexplicably even WORSE than last year, and if we weren't losing much at RT by moving him to LG, we wouldn't be losing much at LG by moving him BACK, especially not if we put an All Pro LG there instead.

It would do what moving him and Clark was intended to do: Significantly improve TWO grossly inadequate positions with the addition of ONE player. Then we just need to find a center, but maybe Montgomery's it. It's pretty sad when the line's so bad they make me miss Beadles, but if he was always underpowered, he had the skill and reflexes Franklin so woefully lacks; put him next to Ramirez and the two of them worked a lot of double teams very well, and we could afford pairing them on assignments because Vasquez needs no help, and can provide it to Franklin at need. Now it's just a disaster.

[Slick]

Sometimes I wonder if there's a country club type of atmosphere in Dove Valley and does Fox do anything more than act like a cheerleader on the sideline.

[LawDog]

Sometimes I wonder if there's a country club type of atmosphere in Dove Valley and does Fox do anything more than act like a cheerleader on the sideline.

It also seems like the O Line said "Hey, Clady's back," then stuck their heads up their asses.

[Joel]

It also seems like the O Line said "Hey, Clady's back," then stuck their heads up their asses.
To be fair, Vasquez is still a fine guard, IMHO; that's one reason I dislike moving him to RT as the latest of increasingly desperate attempts to find one: There's little evidence that fills one of our many existing holes, but it DOES create a new one. Plus we have a lot more depth (however dubious) at OT than at G, so why convert our ONLY All Pro G into yet another OT? I haven't checked the depth chart recently, but right now I'm pretty sure the next man up at G is a former DT whose spent most of his NFL career on active duty in the Air Force.

I understand in principle: Vasquez is an excellent pass blocker (I wish he run blocked as well, though he's at least an adequate run blocker, which is more than ANY of our other Gs can say.) But he's an interior linemen, and it's unclear his pass blocking skills inside translate to edge rushers; he certainly looked bad last year against Indy, when he filled in during Franklins injury. Sad to say, but Franklin just may be the best RT we've got (which speaks poorly of whomever chose our horde of OTs; tell us again how Clark's the best backup OT in the league, Coach Fox.)

It's too late to fire them all and start over; last years guardy-heavy FA period is over, so is last years guard-heavy draft, and the trade deadline was almost a month ago: Sign the behavior trainwreck that is former All Pro pulling G Richie Incognito, send Franklin back to RT as the best of our few awful options, and figure out whether Montgomery or Ramirez is our least awful C (smart money's on Montgomery.) That's far from an ideal scenario, but probably the best one we've got left, and by a wide margin. So far, EVERYTHING we've done to improve a bad line has steadily made it WORSE. #Championship coaching

[Dzone]

Time for someone to read Joels post, word for word, then complain about it being too long in 1, 2, 3...

[LawDog]

Time for someone to read Joels post, word for word, then complain about it being too long in 1, 2, 3...

My over and under for Joel is 5 paragraphs.

[Joel]

My over and under for Joel is 5 paragraphs.
You'd lose that bet most of the time.

[underrated29]

Thank God UR is recovering from surgery.




Now you're getting it

[LawDog]

You'd lose that bet most of the time.
I meant read through or skim over...

[Joel]

I meant read through or skim over...
Ah, perhaps that's a good rule; more length tends to mean more detail, but unless a point's dubious, maybe it's just as well to skip the supporting arguments and evidence.

Speaking of over/under, maybe it's time to do some Power Ratings (even if they aren't as fun as a few weeks ago)—purely as an academic exercise, of course, LawDog. ;)

[Dzone]

Ah, perhaps that's a good rule; more length tends to mean more detail, but unless a point's dubious, maybe it's just as well to skip the supporting arguments and evidence.

Speaking of over/under, maybe it's time to do some Power Ratings (even if they aren't as fun as a few weeks ago)—purely as an academic exercise, of course, LawDog. ;)
By all means keep posting the way you do. Its fun seeing people read your entire post and then dissect it word for word, all the while betching that its too long LOL

[Buff]

I dont think anyone is claiming the move of franklin "will make it all better".

Will it fix something? Its hard to say without trying, considering we are on our 3rd RT, it cant hurt to put last years starter back there.

Im not sure bringing in a guy who hasnt played in a year and is a freaking nut job is an answer either, but could it really be any worse?

Fair enough, perhaps I didn't phrase that effectively. But I guess my point is that we're actually on our 4th RT. Orlando Franklin has already failed there. Moving him back to RT doesn't appear to be an option that's still on the table for the front office.

But the larger point of my thread was that we might be more screwed than we want to admit. It sounds like it won't make any difference whether Franklin is at LG or RT, because he's going to struggle and lead the team in penalties wherever he lines up. Orlando Franklin is terrible, Manny is terrible, our center is terrible, Clady isn't Clady. It kind of sounds like we're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[silkamilkamonico]

How much of this is a personnel issue vs a coaching issue? CLady was once thought of as a top 3 LT, now he's terrible as well. WE might not be great personnel wise, but somebody isn't doing there job at all on the coaching side, IMHO.

On a sid note, maybe Peyton Manning isn't as bad as "we" all think he is.

[Slick]

It really is kind of mind boggling just how bad the line has looked because they were pretty solid last year other than the Superbowl. Many people on this very forum were clamoring for Franklin to move to LG and swap Clark over to RT once Clady got back, and obviously the coaches/front office thought the same. Everyone was pretty optimistic about those changes.

[turftoad]

Sometimes I wonder if there's a country club type of atmosphere in Dove Valley and does Fox do anything more than act like a cheerleader on the sideline.

I agree with this 100%. They need to get meaner and way more nasty. They are not winning on the line of scrimmage because of it.

[SR]

I agree with this 100%. They need to get meaner and way more nasty. They are not winning on the line of scrimmage because of it.

IMO, this coaching staff doesn't have it in them to create that kind of atmosphere. As much talk as there was in the offseason about this team, especially the defense, getting more nasty and aggressive it sure has yet to materialize.

[Cugel]

Careful: Asking "how could it get worse?" is how we wound up with Franklin at LG and TBD at RT. It can ALWAYS get worse, even if it's hard to see how right now. But I have faith our coaches can find a way to screw up even the most idiotproof championship scenario. All that said, Franklin's a known commodity at RT, his multiple successors so far are part of why our line's inexplicably even WORSE than last year, and if we weren't losing much at RT by moving him to LG, we wouldn't be losing much at LG by moving him BACK, especially not if we put an All Pro LG there instead.

It would do what moving him and Clark was intended to do: Significantly improve TWO grossly inadequate positions with the addition of ONE player. Then we just need to find a center, but maybe Montgomery's it. It's pretty sad when the line's so bad they make me miss Beadles, but if he was always underpowered, he had the skill and reflexes Franklin so woefully lacks; put him next to Ramirez and the two of them worked a lot of double teams very well, and we could afford pairing them on assignments because Vasquez needs no help, and can provide it to Franklin at need. Now it's just a disaster.

At some point you have to stop tinkering with the OL and just go with what you have. They moved Franklin for a reason. He sucked at pass-protection last year. Last year teams hadn't figured out how to defense the Broncos offense. But, the Seahawks showed the world how you shut them down, and now even teams like the Rams are doing it.

You can't move Franklin back to RT and expect anything good to happen. The already have far too many changes on the OL. Nor can they bring in Incognito. That's just "praying for rain."

If they can somehow manage to win this home game things will calm down. But, if, and I'd say it's 50-50, they manage to lose, or worse get embarrassed at home, then all bets are off for this season.

John Elway made a huge blunder in not fixing this problem during the off-season, and thinking they could just get by with the OL personnel they already had. I thought that was a very questionable assumption during the summer, but I assumed they knew what they were doing. Apparently not, because they thought a lot more of Chris Clark than he's shown. And Manny Ramirez hasn't done anything since moving back to guard. And asking Louis Vasquez to play RT when he's never done it is a bit much.

If Incognito was a RT, as much as I hate that douche-bag I'd say grit your teeth and bring him in. But, G isn't their worst problem. RT is.

[Cugel]

IMO, this coaching staff doesn't have it in them to create that kind of atmosphere. As much talk as there was in the offseason about this team, especially the defense, getting more nasty and aggressive it sure has yet to materialize.

You do realize that's like asking Charlie Brown's baseball team to "grow a pair and toughen up?" They are just not capable of doing that.

At some point you are what you are. They are soft and floundering. This has the feeling of a ship that is sinking fast. Maybe they get it sorted this week. But, if they lose this week and then go into a buzz saw at KC who has the NFL's #1 pass-defense.

Oh, boy!

EDIT: What would be the point of yelling and getting tough with the players? Do you think the coaches have been sugar-coating the lack of intensity on the OL? You know they've been ripping guys in meetings. It just hasn't produced any results. And as Tony Dungy said, you can't just verbally assault a player who gets physically beat, because he's already down. You just have to hold guys accountable and if they don't respond, then at the end of the season you move on and get some new guys. Problem is that at this point they can't get new guys.

[SR]

You do realize that's like asking Charlie Brown's baseball team to "grow a pair and toughen up?" They are just not capable of doing that. At some point you are what you are. They are soft and floundering. This has the feeling of a ship that is sinking fast. Maybe they get it sorted this week. But, if they lose this week and then go into a buzz saw at KC who has the NFL's #1 pass-defense. Oh, boy! EDIT: What would be the point of yelling and getting tough with the players? Do you think the coaches have been sugar-coating the lack of intensity on the OL? You know they've been ripping guys in meetings. It just hasn't produced any results. And as Tony Dungy said, you can't just verbally assault a player who gets physically beat, because he's already down. You just have to hold guys accountable and if they don't respond, then at the end of the season you move on and get some new guys. Problem is that at this point they can't get new guys.

Yes dad. Sorry dad. I won't have an opinion again dad.

[VonDoom]

Interesting stuff from Twitter. I wonder if this will motivate them?

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 14m14 minutes ago

The entire starting Broncos O-line talked w/ media today. Other than at a Super Bowl media availability, that hasn't happened in 2 decades.

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 13m13 minutes ago

Unprecedented day in Broncos locker room. All 5 starting OL took turns meeting with media mob. Under siege, they stepped up and owned it.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 7m7 minutes ago

Franklin was definitely defiant. All were matter-of-fact and candid. RT @martynrich: @MaseDenver What was their mood? Positive? Defiant?

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 11m11 minutes ago

Whoa. Someone got to the Broncos O-line. Each starter meeting with the media. Hear their comments on CBS4 at 5 and 6.

[Buff]

Maybe Franklin should try to go one game without drawing a penalty before he gets defiant in the media.

[Joel]

At some point you have to stop tinkering with the OL and just go with what you have. They moved Franklin for a reason. He sucked at pass-protection last year. Last year teams hadn't figured out how to defense the Broncos offense. But, the Seahawks showed the world how you shut them down, and now even teams like the Rams are doing it.
That's it in a nutshell: All the moves certainly haven't helped, but it's not simply that they made our line so much worse than last year; it was just as bad then, but fewer teams realized it. They're not doing anything they didn't do last year or the year before; the only difference is instead of me and a few other people complaining about it, now EVERYONE is.


You can't move Franklin back to RT and expect anything good to happen. The already have far too many changes on the OL. Nor can they bring in Incognito. That's just "praying for rain."
Incognito's an awful human being, but an All Pro LG; more to the point, he's far better than any other option we have there, Franklin included. I don't expect good things to come of Franklin returning to RT—but I would expect him to do better there than EVERYONE who's manned that spot since. If there were a former All Pro RT sitting by his phone, I'd say call him, but there's not, so Franklin's the least bad of our few awful options there; regardless, Incognito would significantly and instantly improve LG. One guy can't fill three gaping holes, but can fill ONE, and should.


If they can somehow manage to win this home game things will calm down. But, if, and I'd say it's 50-50, they manage to lose, or worse get embarrassed at home, then all bets are off for this season.
All bets are off regardless, because this problem's not going away just because we beat an above average team at home: The playoffs are fast approaching, and it's no longer a given we'll be there, but IF we are, we won't be there long unless we get our line sorted—especially if we ever go on the road. If we go back to Foxborough this year, that may just be the end of the Manning Era.


John Elway made a huge blunder in not fixing this problem during the off-season, and thinking they could just get by with the OL personnel they already had. I thought that was a very questionable assumption during the summer, but I assumed they knew what they were doing. Apparently not, because they thought a lot more of Chris Clark than he's shown. And Manny Ramirez hasn't done anything since moving back to guard. And asking Louis Vasquez to play RT when he's never done it is a bit much.
Well, I spent the whole offseason SCREAMING for a guard in a draft AND free agent pool thick with top guards, but it did no good and vindication's as unsatisfying as one would expect. We can't turn back the clock, only make the best of a situation so bad it cost us a SB, and try not to think what it says about a FO that KNEW that and did NOTHING about it despite a wealth of great opportunities.


If Incognito was a RT, as much as I hate that douche-bag I'd say grit your teeth and bring him in. But, G isn't their worst problem. RT is.
Debatable, but, much as in the last draft and free agency period, guards where the talent happens to be. Another reason I wanted to chase a top guard last offseason is that we have a lot more OTs than Gs; they may not be GREAT OTs, but right now the next man up at G is a converted DT who's spent most of his NFL career on active Air Force duty. As noted elsewhere, I don't WANT Incognito, but we NEED him; if there were a comparable RT looking for work, I'd say snatch him up, too, but there's not, and we're more likely to find one decent OT among the many on our roster than one decent G among our few.

[Joel]

Maybe Franklin should try to go one game without drawing a penalty before he gets defiant in the media.
Franklin's been amazingly pissy all year for a guy who's played WORSE in EACH of his four seasons so far. He fired off an angry tweet last spring when they told him he was moving to G, groused on Denver radio about Incognitos tryout last week, and now he's "defiant" in this weeks locker room interviews? Instead of complaining about a move to less lucrative position in a contract year, he better get focused on playing SOME position well enough to GET another contract—from ANYONE. If he were as "defiant" with DTs and DEs, he might not need to be with reporters.

[Valar Morghulis]

have you seen "frozen"

Well, "let it go"

[VonDoom]

Well, I spent the whole offseason SCREAMING for a guard in a draft AND free agent pool thick with top guards, but it did no good and vindication's as unsatisfying as one would expect. We can't turn back the clock, only make the best of a situation so bad it cost us a SB, and try not to think what it says about a FO that KNEW that and did NOTHING about it despite a wealth of great opportunities.


I'll probably regret asking, but what exactly would you have done in the offseason? I assume you would have kept Clady and Vasquez. Anyone else? Because if we were going to spend FA dollars on a guard, and draft one in the first or second, what WOULDN'T we have this year? There's opportunity cost associated with your master plan. We could have paid a FA guard 3 years, 15 million and then not have Sanders. We could have drafted Su'a-Filo or someone of that ilk but then not had Roby. Our line would probably be better, but then wouldn't you complain about another area where we were weaker than last year?

[SR]

Joel quoting Cugel is about enough to make me start drinking

[Ravage!!!]

Franklin's been amazingly pissy all year for a guy who's played WORSE in EACH of his four seasons so far. He fired off an angry tweet last spring when they told him he was moving to G, groused on Denver radio about Incognitos tryout last week, and now he's "defiant" in this weeks locker room interviews? Instead of complaining about a move to less lucrative position in a contract year, he better get focused on playing SOME position well enough to GET another contract—from ANYONE. If he were as "defiant" with DTs and DEs, he might not need to be with reporters.

YEah.. I"m sure it's because he's not 'focused' on doing his job.... that's the problem.

[BroncoJoe]

Joel quoting Cugel is about enough to make me start drinking

I am drinking. Thank God I have Joek on ignore.

[Joel]

My first choices would've been to sign Asamoah or Geoff Schwartz, both excellent guards (one with starting OT experience) and both playing for around $2 million/yr with their new teams.

I don't follow college, so I'm no draftnik, but by all accounts Su'a-Filo would've been a good choice. As well as Roby's played, Webster was good last year and is reportedly better now; far more importantly, Webster didn't cost us last years SB: Our abysmal line did, and is threatening to keep us from even REACHING this years SB. I also recall many people talking up Gabe Jackson, David Yankey and Cyril Richardson; again, I must rely on second hand scouting since I don't watch college ball, but the last draft was reportedly deep at a position where we'd already demonstrated need.

Paying $2 million for Asamoah or—even AND—Schwartz wouldn't have stopped us getting Ward, Ware or Talib (for one thing, Rotoworld says we're paying Montgomery $1.3, with another $½ million incentives: Anyone think Montgomery's worth as much as Asamoah? Because we're PAYING him like he is.) If we'd drafted Su'a-Filo, I'd miss Roby, sure, but not as much as I miss Su'a-Filo since we drafted Roby.

Keep in mind: Those are just the options a cursory offseason scan revealed; I have no doubt a GM with Elways connections and football savvy plus access to the Broncos scouts could've found more IF he wanted—he didn't, so he, we and everyone else must live with and adapt to those consequences as best we can. We (or at least I) am talking about GUARDS here; probably the least lucrative spot an NFL roster: Teams can get good ones without breaking the bank; they just have to want one.

[Ravage!!!]

Well sure....but you read the book.

[Joel]

YEah.. I"m sure it's because he's not 'focused' on doing his job.... that's the problem.
Alternatively, we can believe he's riveted on his job but simply INCAPABLE of doing it; is that more reassuring...?

[Joel]

Well sure....but you read the book.
Ironically, it has a line like that, in a sidebar on how Denver screwed itself by not going for it on 4th down inside the 'Skins 10 early in SB XXII, instead settling for a FG and a 10-0 lead, after which Washington ran off 42 unanswered points and that was the final. Maybe it was just kicking karma; during the authors rant against the PAT, they also noted Washington missing a PAT against Denver the previous year clinched the AFCW for us and the NFCE for the eventual champion Giants.

Not that that has anything to do with last years draft; while that book DOES have very enlightening and well supported observations about the draft, I'm pretty sure that's not why you brought it up here. ;)

[Ravage!!!]

Alternatively, we can believe he's riveted on his job but simply INCAPABLE of doing it; is that more reassuring...?

but more realistic. Perhaps you can pull out your book and can tell the coaches on how to teach him better?

[Joel]

but more realistic. Perhaps you can pull out your book and can tell the coaches on how to teach him better?
If Fox and Gase can't figure it out for themselves though, I'm confident Kubiak and Dennison know how to draft, sign and coach up offensive linemen to be proud of rather than embarrassed.

[Ravage!!!]

Lets forget the fact that John Fox has actually COACHED for more years than you have been alive, or the fact that he's coached two different franchises to the Super Bowl. Lets ignore the fact that he's gone to, and won, playoff games every year since being the HC in Denver, and that includes doing it with one of the worst QBs in recent history.

NO.. lets listen the the "book expert" that will COMPLAIN and COMPLAIN about personnel decisions, and forget that this VERY SAME person was crying, moaning, bitching, and screaming that we would have been BETTER OFF STICKING WITH TEBOW than moving forward with Manning. No.. lets listen to his "well read" decisions on how to fix the OL, since Joel is obviously so well "in tune" with what real talent is at the NFL level.

I can't help but find it absoluletly ludicrous that someone that hasn't been closer to the game of football than a junior high sideline has such an overly exaggerated, bloated, inflated, magniloquent, self dilusioned sense of NFL scouting, hiring, and playcalling as Joel does of himself. It amazes me how one can honestly look in the mirror and believe that they are just SO RIGHT, that it's incomprehensible that John Elway isn't ringing his phone this very moment to offer him the very position responsible for FA and Draft signings.... as well as coaching since Joel seems to know "all the answers" as to how to get every player to perform correctly and at peak performances. After all, he did read a book.

Joel, your guessing, fictional, theoretical "fixes" for this team and their needs are no more factual than any armchair QB screaming at the tv " I would have called a different pass play that would have gone for the TD!" They certainly sound good, but has the 100% benefit of never having the opportunity to be scrutinized based on actual results. Theories and complaints. Guesses and criticisms. Easy to do from behind your book.

Everyone has their opinion as to "what needs to be done" but I find it absurd when posters go the degree of which you have, and try to degrade, diminish, and lessen the knowlege that a SUCCESSFUL coach (one that has ACTUALLY coached at the highest level) and attempts to poster themselves as "smarter." It's weak, it's stupid, and irrefutably laughable. I find it to be a joke, and although you haven't realized it yet, you have become a CLOWN for which posters read merely for the musing.

No different than as if walking by the man standing on his soap-box on the corner of Times Square, listening to them rant and rave on the brain-scanners that are reading our thoughts and powering the mothership. Fun to listen to for a while. Entertaining as you shake your head with your friends while the tirades continue for hours and hours... over and over....hearing him believe his actual theories and guesses to be facts that we just can't see.

[Timmy!]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/3840e4ad775110be9d1e8a8de6780519/tumblr_inline_n2wyhzJXN81qe4ieh.gif

[Denver Native (Carol)]

But does Manning feel his offensive line is good enough?

"Certainly. It's not easy forming chemistry in just two weeks in the middle of the season," he said. "What's that, just a handful of practices they've had together?"

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26970511/peyton-manning-candid-dissecting-broncos-offensive-issues

[Hawgdriver]

Franklin's been amazingly pissy all year for a guy who's played WORSE in EACH of his four seasons so far. He fired off an angry tweet last spring when they told him he was moving to G, groused on Denver radio about Incognitos tryout last week, and now he's "defiant" in this weeks locker room interviews? Instead of complaining about a move to less lucrative position in a contract year, he better get focused on playing SOME position well enough to GET another contract—from ANYONE. If he were as "defiant" with DTs and DEs, he might not need to be with reporters.

Amen.

[Joel]

Fox actually hasn't coached longer than I've been alive, is just one of THREE head coaches to ride Manning to a SB, and needed 3 OTs wins just to reach the PLAYOFFS in his other SB season, plus a 4th to reach the NFCCG. But, OK, fine, he's right and I'm wrong: Chris Clark actually IS "the best backup OT in the league" rather than a useless lump—even though the head coach who called him the best when he was giving strip-sacks in game after game last year BENCHED him this year.

Why is someone so directly and personally connected with the NFL sitting here arguing with us lowly readers anyway: Shouldn't you be getting ready for the game you're playing Sunday?

(the previous comment was directed at the particular individual whose comment intended to slander,disrespect or offend me)

I truly LOVE that, btw; does it work in biker bars? Like, if you go up to a Hells Angel and say, "Your mom's a whore—no offense" do they just shrug it off and buy you a beer?

[Joel]

Also, let's keep in mind we're having this "you don't know more than the guys on the field" debate in a thread about an ALL PRO GUARD WITH A FIST FULL OF SB RINGS SAYING WE SHOULD FIRE OUR WHOLE LINE AND REBOOT. Feel free to go tell Schlereth he doesn't know a thing about playing guard, Rav; give him the benefit of your vast and frequently referenced yet never specified experience. Sorry I graduated HS two years early; a lot of folks considered that a GOOD thing, but I understand you consider it failure (just not WHY.) Look, there are two (and ONLY two) really simple options here:

1) Franklin and Clark have exceptional physical ability, but Fox, Gase and their staff can't/won't teach them the skills, concentration and execution to take advantage of that.

2) Franklin and Clark are slow clumsy oafs and Fox, Gase and their staff were crazy to think they'd be excellent starters at ONE position, much less TWO, and calling Clark the NFLs best backup OT was lunacy.

Either way, our coaches dropped the ball: The SOLE debate is WHY, not IF.

[tripp]

Mark Schlereth as a former Bronco I don't really see any reason to say "They need to fire them all and start over". I get it if you're going for ratings purposes and trying to get peoples attention, sure. But it literally does nothing for the team, or players to hear that. That's why I'm confused why Mark Schlereth, a former Bronco would say that about a team (I like to think is rooting to win the SB) that he used to play on.

[tripp]

Also, let's keep in mind we're having this "you don't know more than the guys on the field" debate in a thread about an ALL PRO GUARD WITH A FIST FULL OF SB RINGS SAYING WE SHOULD FIRE OUR WHOLE LINE AND REBOOT. Feel free to go tell Schlereth he doesn't know a thing about playing guard, Rav; give him the benefit of your vast and frequently referenced yet never specified experience. Sorry I graduated HS two years early; a lot of folks considered that a GOOD thing, but I understand you consider it failure (just not WHY.) Look, there are two (and ONLY two) really simple options here:

1) Franklin and Clark have exceptional physical ability, but Fox, Gase and their staff can't/won't teach them the skills, concentration and execution to take advantage of that.

2) Franklin and Clark are slow clumsy oafs and Fox, Gase and their staff were crazy to think they'd be excellent starters at ONE position, much less TWO, and calling Clark the NFLs best backup OT was lunacy.

Either way, our coaches dropped the ball: The SOLE debate is WHY, not IF.

Surely there is some kind of band aid we can put together this season. Hell, nothing has changed from last year, if anything we some how upgraded, although hard to see it that way now, but we did get Clady back. I just don't get how an O-line can just implode like this half way through a season when you only had 1 loss. I don't think teams have suddenly found the blue print to beating our O-line to get to Peyton. I think most of it's mental, and if we can do some patch work and set goals for this O-line that is achievable, we can get some success again. What I mean by setting goals, maybe, I don't know, give Peyton 4 seconds with the ball instead of 2 1/2? Maybe 1 penalty on the O-line instead of 3? Baby steps.

[Timmy!]

I thought our resident expert on all things football was taking a "cooling off period."

[Cugel]

I'll probably regret asking, but what exactly would you have done in the offseason? I assume you would have kept Clady and Vasquez. Anyone else? Because if we were going to spend FA dollars on a guard, and draft one in the first or second, what WOULDN'T we have this year? There's opportunity cost associated with your master plan. We could have paid a FA guard 3 years, 15 million and then not have Sanders. We could have drafted Su'a-Filo or someone of that ilk but then not had Roby. Our line would probably be better, but then wouldn't you complain about another area where we were weaker than last year?

We wouldn't have TJ Ward. Well, so what?

If the OL could get Peyton Manning 3-4 seconds to throw every time with these weapons, it wouldn't much matter how many points the defense gave up. There would be no defense in the NFL, including the Seahawks that could stop the Broncos offense.

So their secondary wouldn't have the guy who failed to cover Gronkowski. I think we could all live with that. Instead they'd have a starting C and a starting RT who didn't suck.

[Simple Jaded]

So the Broncos can suck at a position just as long as they suck at a position you approve of?

Also, if Clark has been in this system for years and struggles this season, what makes people think an outsider wouldn't have?

[Cugel]

Surely there is some kind of band aid we can put together this season. Hell, nothing has changed from last year, if anything we some how upgraded, although hard to see it that way now, but we did get Clady back. I just don't get how an O-line can just implode like this half way through a season when you only had 1 loss. I don't think teams have suddenly found the blue print to beating our O-line to get to Peyton. I think most of it's mental, and if we can do some patch work and set goals for this O-line that is achievable, we can get some success again. What I mean by setting goals, maybe, I don't know, give Peyton 4 seconds with the ball instead of 2 1/2? Maybe 1 penalty on the O-line instead of 3? Baby steps.

Did you not see the "band-aids" the last 5 games? Let's review.

They started the season with Chris Clark at RT, Manny Ramirez moved from G to C, and Orlando Franklin from RT to LG. Then after the first 3 games, they inserted rookie FA Paul Cornick as an extra blocker. Then they benched Clark and inserted Cornick. That lasted 3 games. Then just before the Patriots game they benched Cornick and moved Ramirez back to G, put Will Montgomery at C, and moved Vasquez to RT.

Band-aid, band-aid, band-aid, band-aid. I would say after all this that they are fresh out of band-aids, wouldn't you?

And after all these moves, they were just crushed by a 3-6 team and are now facing the best DL in football and the #3 pass defense. Then it's off to face the Chiefs who are even better on defense.

[Cugel]

So the Broncos can suck at a position just as long as they suck at a position you approve of?

Also, if Clark has been in this system for years struggles this season, what makes people think an outsider wouldn't have?

Approve of? Are you insane?

What is the Broncos biggest asset? Peyton Manning. How can they win the SB with Peyton? Give him time to throw.

He's a statue. He was never fast and now he's the slowest guy in the NFL. He's not going to elude the rush. They have to keep him upright.

What is more important than that? Nothing, that's what. As we are now seeing. Peyton flat SUCKS if you let DL get in his face in 2 seconds. He's thrown 6 picks in the last 3 games. He hasn't done that in 10 seasons!

And it's not like they don't have other S's. How much of an impact has TJ Ward made this season? Not much.

It's not even close.

As for Chris Clark, he was a career backup. It was a gamble to think he could be a starting RT. They certainly needed to bring someone in who could do that job. But, they didn't. They rolled the dice and lost. And it screwed up their entire season.

Now, at best, they are facing a trip to New England in the playoffs in January. And we all know what happens then.

[Simple Jaded]

So Cugel is the rude version of Joel?

:yawn:

[Joel]

Surely there is some kind of band aid we can put together this season. Hell, nothing has changed from last year, if anything we some how upgraded, although hard to see it that way now, but we did get Clady back. I just don't get how an O-line can just implode like this half way through a season when you only had 1 loss. I don't think teams have suddenly found the blue print to beating our O-line to get to Peyton. I think most of it's mental, and if we can do some patch work and set goals for this O-line that is achievable, we can get some success again. What I mean by setting goals, maybe, I don't know, give Peyton 4 seconds with the ball instead of 2 1/2? Maybe 1 penalty on the O-line instead of 3? Baby steps.
The one thing that's changed since last year is that yes, teams have the blueprint on us: It was always available, but NOTHING could display it better than broadcasting it globally in prime time. More human beings saw Historys Best Passing DESTROYED from kickoff to gun than any other event of the past year; the word's kinda out now. And as I noted before and Gase after the game, the main reason was that the best way to get Manning >2 seconds to throw is a running game at least good enough defenses must honor it.

Run to establish the pass; that's literally Football 101: It's how teams slow blitzers, draw down safeties and LBs and force opponents out of dime and Cover 2 (or in Seattles case, Cover 3.) There's a reason our coaches keep trying to go back to it, but also a reason it still won't work. Always has been—even before Manning. All that's changed is the SB spotlighted it too well to ever again conceal.

Timmy's right though: I need a break, and no one needs me to make the same old arguments when everyone from Gase to Schlereth is making them just fine for me. Guess they're not TRUE Broncos.

[Timmy!]

Yoink.

[SR]

As a former Bronco I don't really see any reason to say "They need to fire them all and start over". I get it if you're going for ratings purposes and trying to get peoples attention, sure. But it literally does nothing for the team, or players to hear that. That's why I'm confused why Mark Schlereth, a former Bronco would say that about a team (I like to think is rooting to win the SB) that he used to play on.

You're a former Bronco?

[tripp]

You're a former Bronco?

lawl. you know what I meant. I will edit that for the sake of confusion.

[tripp]

Did you not see the "band-aids" the last 5 games? Let's review.

They started the season with Chris Clark at RT, Manny Ramirez moved from G to C, and Orlando Franklin from RT to LG. Then after the first 3 games, they inserted rookie FA Paul Cornick as an extra blocker. Then they benched Clark and inserted Cornick. That lasted 3 games. Then just before the Patriots game they benched Cornick and moved Ramirez back to G, put Will Montgomery at C, and moved Vasquez to RT.

Band-aid, band-aid, band-aid, band-aid. I would say after all this that they are fresh out of band-aids, wouldn't you?

And after all these moves, they were just crushed by a 3-6 team and are now facing the best DL in football and the #3 pass defense. Then it's off to face the Chiefs who are even better on defense.


If you beat the 49ers so badly you brought out Oz in the 4th. Use that O-line. Something worked. Period. Something isn't clicking with the O-line, so resort back to what you were doing previously.

[tripp]

The one thing that's changed since last year is that yes, teams have the blueprint on us: It was always available, but NOTHING could display it better than broadcasting it globally in prime time. More human beings saw Historys Best Passing DESTROYED from kickoff to gun than any other event of the past year; the word's kinda out now. And as I noted before and Gase after the game, the main reason was that the best way to get Manning >2 seconds to throw is a running game at least good enough defenses must honor it.

Run to establish the pass; that's literally Football 101: It's how teams slow blitzers, draw down safeties and LBs and force opponents out of dime and Cover 2 (or in Seattles case, Cover 3.) There's a reason our coaches keep trying to go back to it, but also a reason it still won't work. Always has been—even before Manning. All that's changed is the SB spotlighted it too well to ever again conceal.

Timmy's right though: I need a break, and no one needs me to make the same old arguments when everyone from Gase to Schlereth is making them just fine for me. Guess they're not TRUE Broncos.

Wasn't just the O-line that lost us that game. Our defense was non existent. Yet that debate is for another thread. While the O-line isn't the best, it was doing a good *enough* job to compete in games. What in god's name was it doing last week against the Rams? We weren't even competitive. There's nothing this season right now, that we can do improve this O-line other than practice, practice, practice, and practice. We need to be better mentally just as much as physically. Do you know how many drives are destroyed because of a holding penalty? We have just as many penalties on the O-line this season, as we had ALL last season. Schlereth pointing out the flaws in our O-line does nothing for the team, and isn't anything new that we don't know about.

[SR]

lawl. you know what I meant. I will edit that for the sake of confusion.

Dude...I totally misread that. My bad

[Joel]

Wasn't just the O-line that lost us that game. Our defense was non existent. Yet that debate is for another thread.
Huh? Elway said our D kept us in that game, and I agree. Despite the safety and giving away the ball on our next "drive," the D held Seattle to a FG both times, and after we went three-and-out the Seahawks needed a phantom 3rd down PI to get 1st and G at the 1 and finally reach the end zone. The D didn't throw the pick six after that, or let them run back the second half KO for a TD.

Our D played a fine game, ESPECIALLY given that Miller, Harris, Vickerson, Wolfe and Moore were on the bench hurt. We were literally half-strength, and still competed against a SB team. Except on offense, our supposed strength that was only missing ONE starter, yet got DESTROYED kickoff to gun. Seattle didn't even DO anything on the first play, just sit back and watch Ramirez throw the ball into our end zone. It boggles the mind why Elway and Co. decided to stand pat with the same guys who yes, almost singlehandedly lost us the SB.

[Simple Jaded]

No GM is going to wipe out an entire position based off one mans opinion of one game, too bad for that one man.

[MOtorboat]

No GM is going to wipe out an entire position based off one mans opinion of one game, too bad for that one man.


Especially when people a lot smarter than us rate him as the most efficient pass blocking tackle in the entire league.

Man, what a **** up it was to follow Joel's wishes and move Franklin to guard.

[GEM]

Fox actually hasn't coached longer than I've been alive, is just one of THREE head coaches to ride Manning to a SB, and needed 3 OTs wins just to reach the PLAYOFFS in his other SB season, plus a 4th to reach the NFCCG. But, OK, fine, he's right and I'm wrong: Chris Clark actually IS "the best backup OT in the league" rather than a useless lump—even though the head coach who called him the best when he was giving strip-sacks in game after game last year BENCHED him this year.

Why is someone so directly and personally connected with the NFL sitting here arguing with us lowly readers anyway: Shouldn't you be getting ready for the game you're playing Sunday?

(the previous comment was directed at the particular individual whose comment intended to slander,disrespect or offend me)

I truly LOVE that, btw; does it work in biker bars? Like, if you go up to a Hells Angel and say, "Your mom's a whore—no offense" do they just shrug it off and buy you a beer?

You mad, bro? :laugh:

[Joel]

No GM is going to wipe out an entire position based off one mans opinion of one game, too bad for that one man.
It's not just Gases opinion we lost the SB because we couldn't run, though he was certainly open in telling Phil Simms so. Are you seriously going to sit here STILL pretending our line's fine?!


Especially when people a lot smarter than us rate him as the most efficient pass blocking tackle in the entire league.

Man, what a **** up it was to follow Joel's wishes and move Franklin to guard.
Same old question: Who plays LG if Franklin doesn't? Given that the FO decided we merely needed to reshuffle our bad hand rather than draw some decent cards. I never WISHED Franklin would move to guard: It was the best of the few bad options left afer Elway refused to get any of the MANY top guards available in the draft and FA. What was our alternative at that point—what IS it now?

[Joel]

You mad, bro? :laugh:
I'm mainly disgusted; sounds like Schlereth is, too. If someone's gonna make a habit of insulting people though, maybe he should take the "this post wasn't meant to be insulting" thing out of his sig.

[nevcraw]

5 pages and no one mentions that the 2 best lineman on the team are clearly hurt. Clady and Vasquez are both no where close to 100 percent. wonder if that affects pass and run blocking.

[GEM]

I'm mainly disgusted; sounds like Schlereth is, too. If someone's gonna make a habit of insulting people though, maybe he should take the "this post wasn't meant to be insulting" thing out of his sig.

How dare he question your football authoritay!

[Cugel]

So Cugel is the rude version of Joel?
:yawn:

Hey, now! Be fair! I never said anything good about Tebow and I never will! :laugh:

P.S. "God bless!"

[Cugel]

If you beat the 49ers so badly you brought out Oz in the 4th. Use that O-line. Something worked. Period. Something isn't clicking with the O-line, so resort back to what you were doing previously.

Hey, I'm for anything that might work. But you have to remember that the Broncos beat a banged up S.F. team that was missing a bunch of starters, including their best rusher Aldon Smith, and Navarro Bowman, etc., etc. That team is currently 6-4 and are unlikely to make the playoffs this season.

The Broncos have played worse in every game since then. Personally, I'm looking for them to turn it around. Maybe the OL will get angry at all the negative publicity and hit somebody in the mouth this Sunday. They'd better, because that is one tough defense they are facing.

And the Chiefs are even tougher on D.

[Joel]

How dare he question your football authoritay!
He can question all he likes, but a constant stream of personal insults followed by a sig denying they're insults is hypocritical. And yes, questioning my "jock cred" and playing the anti-intellectual card is personal.

[Joel]

Hey, I'm for anything that might work. But you have to remember that the Broncos beat a banged up S.F. team that was missing a bunch of starters, including their best rusher Aldon Smith, and Navarro Bowman, etc., etc. That team is currently 6-4 and are unlikely to make the playoffs this season.

The Broncos have played worse in every game since then. Personally, I'm looking for them to turn it around. Maybe the OL will get angry at all the negative publicity and hit somebody in the mouth this Sunday. They'd better, because that is one tough defense they are facing.

And the Chiefs are even tougher on D.
Most every good team we played the first half of the season was banged up and missing multiple key starters; even on Opening Day, Indy managed to lose Robert Mathis. We, on the other hand, were pretty healthy until Trevathan went down, and otherwise healthy for some time thereafter; sure, we lost Ball, but that wasn't losing MUCH since all his successors have outplayed him. Now we're the ones losing starters as SD and KC begin getting theirs back, plus we'll be on the road for the rematches instead of at home.

Coming into the season, it looked like all our tough games were early, but that may not be how it's working out, and maybe that makes sense: Seasons tend to get harder rather than easier with time.

[Simple Jaded]

Especially when people a lot smarter than us rate him as the most efficient pass blocking tackle in the entire league.

Man, what a **** up it was to follow Joel's wishes and move Franklin to guard.

I was wrong right there with Joel, Franklin just hasn't made the adjustment to G, he's a hell of a RT tho. I thought he'd be Carl Nicks at LG, true story.

[Cugel]

I was wrong right there with Joel, Franklin just hasn't made the adjustment to G, he's a hell of a RT tho. I thought he'd be Carl Nicks at LG, true story.

Do you mean "it was Hell when he was at RT"? That would be more accurate. He's always had slow feet and a RT with slow feet is a problem. That's why they moved him inside. It wasn't some mystery decision they did for no reason. They saw him as a liability in pass-coverage.

I thought he'd be at least adequate at LG, but he hasn't even been that. I don't know why. If you've ever stood next to him you know he's just absolutely the most immense man-mountain. He's friggin' HUGE. He even dwarfs other NFL players.

He should be able to just dominate DL inside with his strength and fire through them into the next level, but he hasn't done that for whatever reason. Probably some technique issue.

But they put him inside with the idea that he would be a big body in a small space. Hasn't worked that way.

[Simple Jaded]

I agree, Franklin sucks in pass-coverage.

[Cugel]

Well, at least I'm glad I was right about this:


The Broncos have played worse in every game since then. Personally, I'm looking for them to turn it around. Maybe the OL will get angry at all the negative publicity and hit somebody in the mouth this Sunday. They'd better, because that is one tough defense they are facing.


Other than Franklin's idiotic penalty the OL played better. A LOT of this was due to the blocking of Virgil Green. They missed him badly.

[MOtorboat]

I want someone to tell me, or better yet show me, how Franklin's penalty was even a penalty. He flew off the ball and attacked a outside linebacker. I never saw a hold. I saw three shoves and he didn't even grab inside let alone outside. It was a terrible penalty call.

[Simple Jaded]

I was waiting for a replay too but they went with the Cowballs promo, I hit rewind on DVR and didn't see much.

[MOtorboat]

I was waiting for a replay too but they went with the Cowballs promo, I hit rewind on DVR and didn't see much.

I did too. I saw nothing warranting a penalty.

[Simple Jaded]

DT's OPI was BS too, that's nothing we don't see the Gronkowski's and Gates's do to Denver week after week.

Also, when it comes to the OL's penalties it'd be nice if people actually acknowledged the stress this offense puts on its OL to hold their water.

[VonDoom]

I want someone to tell me, or better yet show me, how Franklin's penalty was even a penalty. He flew off the ball and attacked a outside linebacker. I never saw a hold. I saw three shoves and he didn't even grab inside let alone outside. It was a terrible penalty call.

Yet they didn't call the blatant holding of Von on that last Miami drive. Dude had him by the collar of his jersey and was hanging on for dear life.

[VonDoom]

I've been on Ramirez's case all year, but he answered the bell yesterday. The line responded to criticism. Check these out:

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1h1 hour ago

I'm no Pro Football Focus expert but as I re watch the first half RT Louis Vasquez dominated Cameron Wake

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 17m17 minutes ago

Top-rated @Broncos, per @PFF: Ramirez (+5.2), Miller (+4.5), Anderson (+4.2), Franklin (+3.7), Vasquez (+3.2), Montgomery (+3.1).

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 8m8 minutes ago

Every @Broncos starting O-lineman was at least +1.7 Sunday on @PFF's grading. Starting OL + Cornick = combined +18.4 rating.

[GEM]

Yet they didn't call the blatant holding of Von on that last Miami drive. Dude had him by the collar of his jersey and was hanging on for dear life.

He was holding Von all damn day and Von still got close.

[Cugel]

I've been on Ramirez's case all year, but he answered the bell yesterday. The line responded to criticism. Check these out:

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1h1 hour ago

I'm no Pro Football Focus expert but as I re watch the first half RT Louis Vasquez dominated Cameron Wake

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 17m17 minutes ago

Top-rated @Broncos, per @PFF: Ramirez (+5.2), Miller (+4.5), Anderson (+4.2), Franklin (+3.7), Vasquez (+3.2), Montgomery (+3.1).

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 8m8 minutes ago

Every @Broncos starting O-lineman was at least +1.7 Sunday on @PFF's grading. Starting OL + Cornick = combined +18.4 rating.

This is what we were hoping for all year long. That Orlando Franklin would fire out and HIT somebody and get to the 2nd level, that Manny Ramirez would punish somebody and get to the 2nd level, that there would be holes and cut-back lanes for the RBs, and that a RB would have a huge day.

This is going to be key going forward. Of course the Chiefs are a tougher defense than the Dolphins. Chiefs have the #1 pass defense in the NFL (198 yards a game). Broncos have the #2 passing offense (behind the Colts). Something is going to have to give.

Meanwhile however, the Chiefs are giving up 5.0 yards per rush attempt (& 130 yards/game). They're much worse than the Dolphins or Broncos (who are #2 in rush defense giving up 75 yards a game). Hopefully, the Broncos can continue to run the ball effectively, because that's the weakness of the Chief's defense.

[VonDoom]

This is what we were hoping for all year long. That Orlando Franklin would fire out and HIT somebody and get to the 2nd level, that Manny Ramirez would punish somebody and get to the 2nd level, that there would be holes and cut-back lanes for the RBs, and that a RB would have a huge day.

This is going to be key going forward. Of course the Chiefs are a tougher defense than the Dolphins. Chiefs have the #1 pass defense in the NFL (198 yards a game). Broncos have the #2 passing offense (behind the Colts). Something is going to have to give.

Meanwhile however, the Chiefs are giving up 5.0 yards per rush attempt (& 130 yards/game). They're much worse than the Dolphins or Broncos (who are #2 in rush defense giving up 75 yards a game). Hopefully, the Broncos can continue to run the ball effectively, because that's the weakness of the Chief's defense.

I posted something similar in another thread. I don't think we CAN'T pass on the Chiefs, but I think that they can be had on the ground, which would be my emphasis this week in practice. Long, soul sucking drives where we run it down their throats is a great recipe for taking the crowd out of a game.

[Cugel]

I posted something similar in another thread. I don't think we CAN'T pass on the Chiefs, but I think that they can be had on the ground, which would be my emphasis this week in practice. Long, soul sucking drives where we run it down their throats is a great recipe for taking the crowd out of a game.

Ball control will be especially important because the Chiefs run the ball so effectively.

Just look at this video of Jamal Charles against the Seahawks defense. It's just a brutal beat-down he puts on them. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014111604/2014/REG11/seahawks@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap30000 00429184&tab=videos)

You know they are going to come out and try and run the ball down the Broncos throats, control the clock and keep the ball out of Peyton's hands. It's going to take a total team effort to beat them.

And I would completely throw out the Thursday night loss against the Raiders. Short week to prepare, travel, playing on 4 days rest after a brutally physical game against the Seahawks. Just the sort of weird crap you get on Thursday night games. Probably the only game the Raiders win all year.

The Chiefs team you're going to see on 10 days rest at home is the one that punished Seattle. Jamal Charles, 20 attempts for 153 yards and 2 TDs, he had 11 first downs rushing, plus 2 catches for 19 yards. Total yards = 172 and 2 TDs.

[VonDoom]

Ball control will be especially important because the Chiefs run the ball so effectively.

Just look at this video of Jamal Charles against the Seahawks defense. It's just a brutal beat-down he puts on them. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014111604/2014/REG11/seahawks@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap30000 00429184&tab=videos)

You know they are going to come out and try and run the ball down the Broncos throats, control the clock and keep the ball out of Peyton's hands. It's going to take a total team effort to beat them.

And I would completely throw out the Thursday night loss against the Raiders. Short week to prepare, travel, playing on 4 days rest after a brutally physical game against the Seahawks. Just the sort of weird crap you get on Thursday night games. Probably the only game the Raiders win all year.

The Chiefs team you're going to see on 10 days rest at home is the one that punished Seattle. Jamal Charles, 20 attempts for 153 yards and 2 TDs, he had 11 first downs rushing, plus 2 catches for 19 yards. Total yards = 172 and 2 TDs.

Totally agree on the bolded part. I said at the time that the loss to the Raiders in no way makes the Chiefs less dangerous.

Our run defense has been slightly suspect the last couple of weeks after being the best in the league before then. We will need them to be at their best to stop Charles.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

We really need Brandon Marshall for this game.

[MOtorboat]

Totally agree on the bolded part. I said at the time that the loss to the Raiders in no way makes the Chiefs less dangerous.

Our run defense has been slightly suspect the last couple of weeks after being the best in the league before then. We will need them to be at their best to stop Charles.

I wouldn't dismiss that game. The Raiders picked on Ron Parker. He's out of his element in the Man-Cover 1/Cover 2 scheme. Chiefs love to blitz and Manning is the man against that. I haven't watched any of the Seahawks game yet, but I'd bet the Seahawks tried to run and didn't attack the secondary early.

[Cugel]

I wouldn't dismiss that game. The Raiders picked on Ron Parker. He's out of his element in the Man-Cover 1/Cover 2 scheme. Chiefs love to blitz and Manning is the man against that. I haven't watched any of the Seahawks game yet, but I'd bet the Seahawks tried to run and didn't attack the secondary early.

Take a look at the video in the link I provided. It's a Jamal Charles highlight reel. You might think that is a season re-cap of his best plays of the year, but it's all from one game! He just utterly single-handedly destroys that Seahawks defense. 20 rushes for 153 and 2 TDs, plus 19 yards receiving.

It almost didn't matter what the Seattle offense did. They barely could get on the field. Charles had 11 first downs rushing. Eleven.

Of course they are going to try and do the same thing to the Broncos. Why wouldn't they?

As for the Thursday night game, have you not noticed that Thursday night games are weird? It's trial by ambush. You can't get ready in that time. Usually the road team is at a huge disadvantage.

[BroncoJoe]

Take a look at the video in the link I provided. It's a Jamal Charles highlight reel. You might think that is a season re-cap of his best plays of the year, but it's all from one game! He just utterly single-handedly destroys that Seahawks defense. 20 rushes for 153 and 2 TDs, plus 19 yards receiving.

It almost didn't matter what the Seattle offense did. They barely could get on the field. Charles had 11 first downs rushing. Eleven.

Of course they are going to try and do the same thing to the Broncos. Why wouldn't they?

As for the Thursday night game, have you not noticed that Thursday night games are weird? It's trial by ambush. You can't get ready in that time. Usually the road team is at a huge disadvantage.

Yes - only the Chiefs were the only team affected by playing on a Thursday. LOL. Moron.

Charles is an outstanding player. Just because he did that against the Seahawks, doesn't mean he'll do it against us.

Did you see CJ Anderson's game last week? He ran for 167 on 27 carries and 1 TD plus 28 yards receiving. I have no idea how many first downs he got, but there were a bunch.

Of course the Broncos are going to try and do the same thing to the Chiefs. Why wouldn't they?