View Full Version : Broncos coach John Fox on loss to Rams: "I'm sure fans are upset"
Denver Native (Carol)
11-17-2014, 08:21 PM
Following the worst offensive performance in Peyton Manning's tenure in Denver, Broncos coach John Fox admitted disappointment, but "no panic" after the team's second loss in three games.
"On the inside, we're very disappointed. That includes everybody ... All our signatures are on it (the loss)," Fox said. "I'm sure fans are upset. I promise you we're upset. Fans should be (upset)."
Criticism has centered around the reshuffled offensive line. Every member of the unit, save for left guard Orlando Franklin, received a negative grade, according to Pro Football Focus. With Manning under pressure and without Emmanuel Sanders and Julius Thomas for a large chunk of the game, the Broncos did not take a snap inside the Rams' 28-yard line. The Broncos became one-dimensional, finishing with 28 rushing yards. C.J. Anderson rushed only four times in the second half for 16 yards.
rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26955383/broncos-coach-john-fox-loss-rams-im-sure
MOtorboat
11-18-2014, 03:49 AM
Interesting. Franklin had another good grade.
CrazyHorse
11-18-2014, 03:55 AM
Fans are completely outraged!
broken12
11-18-2014, 09:52 AM
I know manning don't like it but we gotta do some max protect and 2te and fb sets....
Northman
11-18-2014, 10:07 AM
Gee...you think? Hello Capt Obvious. lmao
Northman
11-18-2014, 10:08 AM
I know manning don't like it but we gotta do some max protect and 2te and fb sets....
Totally agree. Thats how we scored with Sanders (without the FB though).
Totally agree. Thats how we scored with Sanders (without the FB though).
Virgil Green being injured is killing this team more than people realize.
broken12
11-18-2014, 11:49 AM
Ben tate anyone?
Interesting. Franklin had another good grade.
Along with another two penalties and a DE who went right by him untouched on a stunt to sack Manning. Focus hazy; ask again later.
MOtorboat
11-18-2014, 04:12 PM
Along with another two penalties and a DE who went right by him untouched on a stunt to sack Manning. Focus hazy; ask again later.
It amazes me that you immediately condemn an offensive lineman for a sack and dismiss the sack almost altogether in your defensive rants.
Contradict much?
Simple Jaded
11-18-2014, 10:11 PM
Interesting. Franklin had another good grade.
Must be an oversight.
Simple Jaded
11-18-2014, 10:13 PM
Gee...you think?
Yes, all the time, except when I'm sleeping.
VonDoom
11-18-2014, 10:20 PM
Interesting. Franklin had another good grade.
On the other hand ...
Manny Ramirez, RG: -3.3
Breakdown: Ramirez’ -3.3 grade was the worst of any Bronco, after earning red grades in both pass protection and run blocking. He finished with a -2.4 run blocking grade on just 12 such snaps.
Signature Stat: Ramirez’ fourth red grade of the season, and he has not finished with a green grade since Week 1.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/11/17/refo-broncos-rams-week-11/
Dapper Dan
11-18-2014, 10:33 PM
#impeachFox
MOtorboat
11-18-2014, 10:39 PM
On the other hand ...
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/11/17/refo-broncos-rams-week-11/
Correct. The problem certainly isn't Franklin. Is he All Pro? No. But he sure as hell isn't as bad as the things I read on this forum make him out to be.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-18-2014, 10:49 PM
Correct. The problem certainly isn't Franklin. Is he All Pro? No. But he sure as hell isn't as bad as the things I read on this forum make him out to be.
Exactly
It amazes me that you immediately condemn an offensive lineman for a sack and dismiss the sack almost altogether in your defensive rants.
Contradict much?
Sacks are overrated (they almost MUST be, given how many people obsess over them.) Refer to "The Joy of Sacks, and Other Mistakes" (a title Fox would surely approve) in The Hidden Game of Football. The bullet point is "A first- or second-down sack restricts your opponents options; a third-down sack ends them," but "suppose it's 3rd and 10 at the 50. The sack moves the ball back 7 yds. How much more has the sack accomplished than a plain old incomplete pass? We'll tell you—seven yards. Big deal!"
Except on 3rd down in a narrow band between the opponents 25 and 35—where a sack converts a chip shot FG into a challenge or a challenge into an impossibility—sacks alone are worth little. They were MORE valuable as a bellwether for overall pressure, but since statistician efforts to turn football into baseball started counting Hurries and Knock Downs, even that value's less.
Generally, the value is less ending a drive than disrupting an offense (Laurinitis in our last game's a good example; he only got a single sack on the stat sheet, but disrupted Manning far more than VonWareWolfe did Hill, forcing a couple Ints far more valuable than the sacks they averted.) To qoute again:
... a pass rush could do an excellent job for an entire game without once sacking the passer. If they force an opponent into a short passing game, hurry the passer into a few interceptions, cause a couple of other passes to fall incomplete, they may never get to dance, but they're definitely calling the tune.
If that sounds like a summary of SB XLVIII, it should; Seattle only racked up a single sack on the stat sheet, but their 4-man rush utterly dominated our 5 blockers all night so they could drop 7 or even 8 guys into coverage and force Manning to thread the needle with EVERYONE double covered and hope the ball left before the rush arrived. It usually did, but a couple times it quickly came back the other way.
In that sense, Franklin, Ramirez or Clark/Cornick whiffing a block that sends shivers down Mannings 38-year-old surgically repaired spine is bad whether it's a sack or not. Again: Opening Day 2013, Manning threw Orange Julius his first career TD—and got Terrell Suggs' shoulder LAUNCHED squarely into his ribs because Ramirez didn't even try to block an elite pass rusher. Was it a sack? No, it was a TD. Did it keep Manning in the cold tub an extra fifteen minutes? Almost certainly. These are the kinds of things that answer the question "Will Manning retire next year?"
If the argument's simply that Franklin's not our worst nor even second worst starting lineman, I'll stipulate to that—but that just goes to show the absurdity of folks who called me crazy for doubting this line last year: Four out of our five starters are the same as last year, or were until the guy Fox publically called "the NFLs best backup OT" got BENCHED for a guy off someone elses PS. Think the Kool-Aid's gone sour....
Ravage!!!
11-19-2014, 04:47 PM
I sure wish Joel and his book could coach our team.
Valar Morghulis
11-19-2014, 05:46 PM
If the argument's simply that Franklin's not our worst nor even second worst starting lineman, I'll stipulate to that—but that just goes to show the absurdity of folks who called me crazy for doubting this line last year: Four out of our five starters are the same as last year, or were until the guy Fox publically called "the NFLs best backup OT" got BENCHED for a guy off someone elses PS. Think the Kool-Aid's gone sour....
Jesus mate. You need to let this go - you are coming across like some kind of weirdo with a fixation on your own righteousness and the errors of others.
Honestly - relax, we know your thoughts about the O-line, they are in every thread on this board.
This comes from a place of love - chill out.
Timmy!
11-19-2014, 05:48 PM
I'd really like to know Joel's thoughts on the oline.
I'd really like to know Joel's thoughts on the oline.
Ask seemingly everyone who plays or coaches for Denver—or ever has; the sole exception is Manning, who seems to be consciously and actively avoiding criticism for throwing his line under the bus again.
Jesus mate. You need to let this go - you are coming across like some kind of weirdo with a fixation on your own righteousness and the errors of others.
Honestly - relax, we know your thoughts about the O-line, they are in every thread on this board.
This comes from a place of love - chill out.
Again, no longer solely my thoughts: Virtually everyone with any past or present connection to the Broncos is publicly saying the same. So I'll leave them to it and try not to think of what might have been.
tomjonesrocks
11-19-2014, 09:01 PM
Correct. The problem certainly isn't Franklin. Is he All Pro? No. But he sure as hell isn't as bad as the things I read on this forum make him out to be.
You really called the hell out of the line shuffle being a mistake/overreaction at the time.
Pretty insightful. Would have never dreamed these consequences were in the mail.
The token stand pat solution proving grossly inadequate doesn't prove there was no problem. If we throw gas on a fire to put it out, the flare up doesn't prove there's no fire, only that gas can't smother it.
SOMEONE had to play LG after Beadles left; if it wasn't Franklin, whom WOULD it be? The problem's not that we changed the line too much, but not ENOUGH: Four of the five SB starters started Opening Day; if we knew those SB starters were a problem (and Gase says he did) how could reshuffling the same bad hand solve it? Schlereth's closer to the mark saying we should fire all our starting linemen and "start" over, but it's far too late now. The time to do it was during the offseason, when we chose to just shuffle.
MOtorboat
11-19-2014, 11:01 PM
The token stand pat solution proving grossly inadequate doesn't prove there was no problem. If we throw gas on a fire to put it out, the flare up doesn't prove there's no fire, only that gas can't smother it.
SOMEONE had to play LG after Beadles left; if it wasn't Franklin, whom WOULD it be? The problem's not that we changed the line too much, but not ENOUGH: Four of the five SB starters started Opening Day; if we knew those SB starters were a problem (and Gase says he did) how could reshuffling the same bad hand solve it? Schlereth's closer to the mark saying we should fire all our starting linemen and "start" over, but it's far too late now. The time to do it was during the offseason, when we chose to just shuffle.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
I stand corrected: NO ONE had to play LG after Beadles left; we could just leave a gaping hole there and trust in our opponents honor to prevent them pouring through there unblocked.
No TRUE Broncos fan would question the wisdom of Fox. Nor Gase. Nor half a dozen former Broncos starters (along with a few current ones.) Someone repeatedly assured me you take it or turn in your fan card.
Simple Jaded
11-19-2014, 11:24 PM
Jesus mate. You need to let this go - you are coming across like some kind of weirdo with a fixation on your own righteousness and the errors of others.
Honestly - relax, we know your thoughts about the O-line, they are in every thread on this board.
This comes from a place of love - chill out.
Joel wants nothing more than to be right, now that Franklin has failed to move to LG he wants to rewrite history and be right about Franklin at RT. As someone who is wrong as often as Joel who can blame him for being an insufferable weirdo at the mere thought vindication.
MOtorboat
11-19-2014, 11:34 PM
I stand corrected: NO ONE had to play LG after Beadles left; we could just leave a gaping hole there and trust in our opponents honor to prevent them pouring through there unblocked.
No TRUE Broncos fan would question the wisdom of Fox. Nor Gase. Nor half a dozen former Broncos starters (along with a few current ones.) Someone repeatedly assured me you take it or turn in your fan card.
Denver committed to this year's line before the draft. It changed last year's line, regardless of whether or not it's the same players. It moved those players. It's now quite clear they didn't need to be moved.
It's not like Denver moved Franklin in training camp. Had they done that the team would have had plenty of time to find a LG or resign Beadles. Virtually every one of your rants about Franklin prove to be false time and time again when analysts and statisticians continue to show your rants to be false.
Denver committed to this year's line before the draft.
No kidding: That's the whole problem, and why we have NO solution left but Richie Incogpsycho, who can't play LG, C AND RT anyway. Every time I think of all the great guard talent in last years draft AND free agency, I want to vomit at the opportunity we missed to fix a problem the coaches had just seen kill a championship.
It changed last year's line, regardless of whether or not it's the same players. It moved those players. It's now quite clear they didn't need to be moved.
That's not AT ALL clear; just the opposite was clear all of last season as well as preceding ones: The SB just put it on display for literally the whole world, so even our coaches could no longer ignore it.
It's not like Denver moved Franklin in training camp. Had they done that the team would have had plenty of time to find a LG or resign Beadles. Virtually every one of your rants about Franklin prove to be false time and time again when analysts and statisticians continue to show your rants to be false.
Actually, it's EXACTLY like Denver moved Franklin in training camp, because THEY DID, prompting his petulant tweet about it. For a guy who's played worse each of his four seasons, he's pretty pouty. They were never re-signing Beadles; if they didn't value LG enough to beat the $2 million FAR better guards like Asamoah and Schwartz got this year, there's no way they'd cough up the $6 million Beadles is getting.
I get it, man: When the coaches agree with you, they're wisdom is unquestionable and anyone who dares say otherwise is a faux fan; when they—along with current and former players and network analysts—agree with me, it can be called madness with no risk to anyones fan card. Mark Schlereth's not just an analyst nor even former Bronco: He's former ALL PRO GUARD with a fist full of SB Rings who says we should fire all our offensive linemen and start over, but feel free to elaborate on why he, me, our coaches and pretty much EVERYONE but you is wrong.
Joel wants nothing more than to be right, now that Franklin has failed to move to LG he wants to rewrite history and be right about Franklin at RT. As someone who is wrong as often as Joel who can blame him for being an insufferable weirdo at the mere thought vindication.
Actually, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong; being right about our line (or lack thereof) has become a very frustrating, draining and depressing habit. Moving Franklin was equally about how bad he was at RT and how badly we needed a LG. Turns out he sucks at both for the same reason: He can't handle anything that's not directly in front of him. Manning may be more mobile.
MOtorboat
11-20-2014, 12:30 AM
No kidding: That's the whole problem, and why we have NO solution left but Richie Incogpsycho, who can't play LG, C AND RT anyway. Every time I think of all the great guard talent in last years draft AND free agency, I want to vomit at the opportunity we missed to fix a problem the coaches had just seen kill a championship.
That's not AT ALL clear; just the opposite was clear all of last season as well as preceding ones: The SB just put it on display for literally the whole world, so even our coaches could no longer ignore it.
Actually, it's EXACTLY like Denver moved Franklin in training camp, because THEY DID, prompting his petulant tweet about it. For a guy who's played worse each of his four seasons, he's pretty pouty. They were never re-signing Beadles; if they didn't value LG enough to beat the $2 million FAR better guards like Asamoah and Schwartz got this year, there's no way they'd cough up the $6 million Beadles is getting.
I get it, man: When the coaches agree with you, they're wisdom is unquestionable and anyone who dares say otherwise is a faux fan; when they—along with current and former players and network analysts—agree with me, it can be called madness with no risk to anyones fan card. Mark Schlereth's not just an analyst nor even former Bronco: He's former ALL PRO GUARD with a fist full of SB Rings who says we should fire all our offensive linemen and start over, but feel free to elaborate on why he, me, our coaches and pretty much EVERYONE but you is wrong.
The petulant tweet was in April. Didn't know they started training camp that early.
Well, if "It's not like Denver moved Franklin in training camp. Had they done that the team would have had plenty of time to find a LG or resign Beadles," moving him BEFORE camp would've given them even MORE time to find a LG or re-sign Beadles—who'd already signed with Jax a month earlier, so that wasn't an option. Once the Jags offered him $30 mil over 5 years, it was NEVER an option.
So the question remains: Who plays LG if not Franklin? That question STILL remains if Franklin goes back to RT, btw; the only difference is we don't have a chock full o' guards draft or free agency to answer it.
MOtorboat
11-20-2014, 01:12 AM
Well, if "It's not like Denver moved Franklin in training camp. Had they done that the team would have had plenty of time to find a LG or resign Beadles," moving him BEFORE camp would've given them even MORE time to find a LG or re-sign Beadles—who'd already signed with Jax a month earlier, so that wasn't an option. Once the Jags offered him $30 mil over 5 years, it was NEVER an option.
So the question remains: Who plays LG if not Franklin? That question STILL remains if Franklin goes back to RT, btw; the only difference is we don't have a chock full o' guards draft or free agency to answer it.
Well I don't know what to tell you. He was told in April and that is plenty of time before camp to draft or sign someone. My guess is they went after someone in free agency and whiffed, or low balled them, OR Demarcus Ware became available and the switched directions because of the importance of sacks to a defense that needed a RDE/ROLB more than a LG. At that point they began evaluating whether or not they thought Franklin would be better at LG than their options in the draft. Knowing that Elway targets specific players in the draft, we can assume he didn't like any of the options (none of whom are starting now as it is) AND he saw the need for a cornerback because they saw what I didn't see (oh, look, I can admit when I'm wrong. Try it some time) that Bailey was done. He liked Roby better than any guard at that point in the draft so he moved Franklin. The Roby moved worked out. The Franklin move didn't.
Now they CAN'T move him RT, not because he wasn't good at RT, but because now they really don't have an option at LG. But they do have options at RT, however bad they might be.
Moved one guy. Created two holes.
Simple Jaded
11-20-2014, 10:24 PM
Btw, iirc, both the G's Joel wanted in FA played RG, I'm sure there's a prefect reason to think those two lesser athletes would be better at moving to LG in a new system as hard as this one than a Top RT who has been in the system for almost three years.
Joel by his own admission knows nothing about the draft, so, whatevs.
Moving from RG to LG isn't as big a shift as moving from RT to LG; RGs may not pull as much as LGs—but they pull a lot more than OTs! Although, speaking of RT: Schwartz started at RT his first three seasons (for Fox in Carolina, as it happens.) As for Franklin being a "top RT:" Top linemen don't break their personal record for penalties EVERY year for FOUR straight seasons. At this rate, he'll have 2/gm next year, but probably not for us, and he can make all the sullen tweets he wants about it (maybe that's why we didn't give Incognito his job: We don't want him turning Franklin into the next Jonathan Martin.)
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