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Slick
11-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Just got an Espn update that said they were considering signing him after working him out.

VonDoom
11-11-2014, 12:19 PM
Per ESPN:


The Denver Broncos brought in guard Richie Incognito for a workout and are considering signing him, according to a FoxSports.com report.

Incognito worked out in Denver for team officials on Monday, according to the report, but no decision has been made on whether or not to sign the free agent.

Incognito has not played in the NFL since the Miami Dolphins suspended him in November 2013. A league investigation determined that Incognito and two other Dolphins offensive linemen engaged in persistent harassment of teammate Johnathan Martin, who left the team in October 2013.

Incognito became a free agent when his contract with the Dolphins expired.

The 31-year-old Incognito, an offensive guard, has played in 102 games (all starts) over eight seasons with the Dolphins, Buffalo Bills and St. Louis Rams, who selected him in the third round of the 2005 draft.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11858778/denver-broncos-brought-free-agent-richie-incognito-workout

I'm surprised that they would be interested in this kind of headache. Is the locker room strong enough to deal with this? I know the OL has had issues, but this kind of reeks of desperation.

Edit: looks like it was originally reported by Jay Glazer from Fox Sports

NightTrainLayne
11-11-2014, 12:27 PM
I'm not sure he'd be a locker room head-ache. . .if he was before, surely he's learned a valuable lesson.

That being said, I imagine the staff is just doing their due dilligence. I'll wait until I see news that we actually signed him before I give it another thought.

Dzone
11-11-2014, 12:48 PM
It is definitely worth the risk. Theres a damn good chance that Incognito would want to toe the line and be a model citizen for the chance of a lifetime. Isnt that what punishment is supposed to do? I am glad a team has finally the guts to give him a shot. There are guys playing now who did way worse things than incognito. He has paid for his transgressions. If he can play then its a damn good move

Bronco4ever
11-11-2014, 12:48 PM
Hopefully he doesn't give any swirly's or steal people's lunch money.

Buff
11-11-2014, 12:48 PM
Would he replace Franklin or Ramirez? I got the impression from Mike Klis that we're committed to Montgomery at center, and as a result, Vasquez at RT.

SR
11-11-2014, 12:56 PM
Just got an Espn update that said they were considering signing him after working him out.

I'm all for it

BroncoWave
11-11-2014, 12:56 PM
Interesting. I kinda can't stand him and think he is a scumbag, but we really need help on the line. Surely he can keep his head screwed on straight for half a season. He knows he's on his last chance. My concerns would be what kind of shape he's in and how quickly he'd pick up the offense.

It can't hurt to bring him in for a look at least, so we'll see.

SR
11-11-2014, 12:57 PM
Would he replace Franklin or Ramirez? I got the impression from Mike Klis that we're committed to Montgomery at center, and as a result, Vasquez at RT.

Probably at left guard where he's started most of his games. Move Franklin back to RT.

Buff
11-11-2014, 01:00 PM
Probably at left guard where he's started most of his games. Move Franklin back to RT.

I'd be surprised if Franklin moves back to RT. It seems like they would have done that before asking Vasquez to move over if they felt like that was a viable solution. I think he's closer to being out of the lineup all together.

Dzone
11-11-2014, 01:02 PM
It would suck though to sign him and then he goes John Boyett. He has shown that type of psychopathology so you never know. He might be like a human hand grenade. But That other loony toon, jonathan martin has turned out okay

VonDoom
11-11-2014, 01:04 PM
I'd assume they'd want to replace the weakest link on this line, which would be Ramirez. I'd vote for kicking Franklin back outside but if they're not doing that, then I'd say leave Montgomery at C, and put Incognito (or whoever) at RG.

I'm all for second chances. Incognito has had about ten chances, though, and he screws up every time. If Elway feels comfortable with him, and a very specific set of ground rules is laid down, then it's probably worth a short term risk. He would be an upgrade, and if he could channel his bullshit onto the field, he could be the bit of nasty we need.

SR
11-11-2014, 01:04 PM
It would suck though to sign him and then he goes John Boyett. He has shown that type of psychopathology so you never know. He might be like a human hand grenade. But That other loony toon, jonathan martin has turned out okay

Richie is a dumb shit, no doubt, but even working out with Denver he has to know it's the chance of a lifetime. And honestly, Denver could use a little nasty on the offensive side of the ball.

Buff
11-11-2014, 01:10 PM
I'd assume they'd want to replace the weakest link on this line, which would be Ramirez. I'd vote for kicking Franklin back outside but if they're not doing that, then I'd say leave Montgomery at C, and put Incognito (or whoever) at RG.

I'm all for second chances. Incognito has had about ten chances, though, and he screws up every time. If Elway feels comfortable with him, and a very specific set of ground rules is laid down, then it's probably worth a short term risk. He would be an upgrade, and if he could channel his bullshit onto the field, he could be the bit of nasty we need.

It was only one game - but I'm not so sure Franklin isn't the weakest link. He has been bad - and this PFF chart (from amcfarla on reddit) seems to confirm that he was the weakest link against Oakland.

http://i.imgur.com/wabNnTB.jpg

Krugan
11-11-2014, 01:19 PM
Weird, sadly, he most likely, is about all thats out there worth a damn.

I dont like it, but im not in charge so whatever. The oline has been a mess this year, kinda makes you wonder if moving franklin to guard was a poor choice.

GEM
11-11-2014, 01:21 PM
Would he replace Franklin or Ramirez? I got the impression from Mike Klis that we're committed to Montgomery at center, and as a result, Vasquez at RT.

Maybe move Vasquez to Tackle and take Manram to the bench?

SR
11-11-2014, 01:21 PM
Weird, sadly, he most likely, is about all thats out there worth a damn. I dont like it, but im not in charge so whatever. The oline has been a mess this year, kinda makes you wonder if moving franklin to guard was a poor choice.

Looks that way

OrangeHoof
11-11-2014, 01:23 PM
I think they can make clear to Incognito that he can have a Super Bowl ring if he can just play hard on the field and keep his mouth shut and stay out of trouble. He's going to get baited and he'll need to restrain himself.

As for what that does to the line, we need to find five guys who can keep Manning's jersey clean. Opening up holes in the running game is secondary.

Buff
11-11-2014, 01:23 PM
Weird, sadly, he most likely, is about all thats out there worth a damn.

I dont like it, but im not in charge so whatever. The oline has been a mess this year, kinda makes you wonder if moving franklin to guard was a poor choice.


Looks that way

Franklin sucks at RT too, as we painfully learned in the Super Bowl... So if anything, keeping him on the line at all was a poor choice.

VonDoom
11-11-2014, 01:24 PM
It was only one game - but I'm not so sure Franklin isn't the weakest link. He has been bad - and this PFF chart (from amcfarla on reddit) seems to confirm that he was the weakest link against Oakland.

http://i.imgur.com/wabNnTB.jpg

I'd be curious as to how it's played out over the course of the year. I'm just going by the eye test when I say Ramirez. I thought that Franklin had graded out pretty well overall, but maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

Krugan
11-11-2014, 01:30 PM
Franklin sucks at RT too, as we painfully learned in the Super Bowl... So if anything, keeping him on the line at all was a poor choice.

One game does not utter suck make.

He seemed to have a pretty quality season, up to that point.

That game was a cluter fack from snap 1, so im not gonna judge anyone to harshly over the shit storm.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
11-11-2014, 01:41 PM
Ugh. Not much more to say than that. Wouldn't be a signing I'd care for, but it would improve the team.

Torn here. He's a piece of shit human being regardless; that much is clear.

CoachChaz
11-11-2014, 01:43 PM
I'd take Incognito in a minute. We (based on media influence) can call him a cancer or an ******* all we want, but the only time he was let go due to conduct AGAINST a teammate was in Miami. Even after that, most of his teammates defended him and stated they wished the team would keep him.

Now put him in a locker room that actually has leaders, as opposed to Miami or Buffalo and it's only the on-field stuff you have to worry about...like the crap he did when with STL.

Shazam!
11-11-2014, 02:23 PM
Bring him in!

underrated29
11-11-2014, 02:26 PM
Hey guys :hi:

underrated29
11-11-2014, 02:28 PM
I would like

Clady/Richie/will/Vasquez/franklin


That would be our best bet IMO.......but it seems like if we do sign him that it'll be:


Clady/franklin/will/Richie/Vasquez

Shazam!
11-11-2014, 02:35 PM
He'd be an upgrade and come cheap, League minimum.

I expect them to get this done.

CoachChaz
11-11-2014, 02:36 PM
I would like

Clady/Richie/will/Vasquez/franklin


That would be our best bet IMO.......but it seems like if we do sign him that it'll be:


Clady/franklin/will/Richie/Vasquez

Run the ball to right all day long

Denver Native (Carol)
11-11-2014, 02:44 PM
Bottom line - if the Broncos sign Incognito, it will be totally up to him - he will either only want to play football, or he will continue being a jerk.

SR
11-11-2014, 02:51 PM
Bottom line - if the Broncos sign Incognito, it will be totally up to him - he will either only want to play football, or he will continue being a jerk.

My gut instinct says he cleans his shit up and resurrects his career because if Denver does offer him a contract he would be the biggest dumb in the world to NOT.

BroncoJoe
11-11-2014, 03:12 PM
Hey guys :hi:

Give it up, fanboi.

underrated29
11-11-2014, 03:12 PM
My gut instinct says he cleans his shit up and resurrects his career because if Denver does offer him a contract he would be the biggest dumb in the world to NOT.

Couldn't agree more.

I would suspect we offer him a deal near what we did drc in terms of it being a 2year but we can void it after this year, for 2-3 mil.






Coach, you'd rather keep Vasquez at rt then franklin back to RT?

I'm not sure I like Vasquez at rt all that much ,but maybe you see more then I do in him there..

VonDoom
11-11-2014, 03:15 PM
I would like

Clady/Richie/will/Vasquez/franklin


That would be our best bet IMO.......but it seems like if we do sign him that it'll be:


Clady/franklin/will/Richie/Vasquez

Agreed on both counts. That first scenario makes the most sense to me; I'd rather Vasquez play at his natural (pro bowl) position. Get the five best guys on the field no matter what, though.

BroncoJoe
11-11-2014, 03:15 PM
I wouldn't mind a little more nasty on the OLine. If he's cheap, sign him. My only concern is he's 31. I couldn't give a bigger crap about his past.

tripp
11-11-2014, 03:16 PM
If he's an upgrade, do it. The locker room won't stand for his sh*t if he becomes a distraction.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-11-2014, 03:22 PM
Why not? He got tossed from the Fins for "bullying" a giant little girl. I'm still in awe that an offensive lineman let himself be picked on to the point that he quit. That's some little girl shit. Apparently, Martin couldn't have cut it in the military either where screwing with each other is a way of life. I think Incognito is a shit talker but I doubt he'd attempt it with this locker room.

I'd have no problem bringing in Incognito. Maybe he'd get some of the other Olinemen to man up and play nasty for once. There isn't a lack of talent on our Oline, it's a lack of attitude.

tomjonesrocks
11-11-2014, 03:29 PM
Don't like it. I'm surprised JFE / Fox / PFM would consider it.

What a mess; talk about desperation.

Prater had too many personal demons and needed to be cut midseason -- but a head case that got cut for bullying, is on film screaming n-bombs shirtless in a bar, and destroyed his Ferrari is worth bringing in?

Buff
11-11-2014, 03:36 PM
I really hope this happens. I view it as a very low-risk move. We wouldn't have to give up a draft pick to get him, we wouldn't have to pay him anything, and we have a veteran-laden locker room who isn't going to be affected by any antics. The guy is a monster run blocker and would immediately be our 3rd best lineman (as SR noted).

Beyond that - Cornick is just taking up a roster spot, we may as well give that to someone who has a chance to contribute positively. I am actively rooting for us to sign him.

BroncoWave
11-11-2014, 03:45 PM
Why not? He got tossed from the Fins for "bullying" a giant little girl. I'm still in awe that an offensive lineman let himself be picked on to the point that he quit. That's some little girl shit. Apparently, Martin couldn't have cut it in the military either where screwing with each other is a way of life. I think Incognito is a shit talker but I doubt he'd attempt it with this locker room.

I'd have no problem bringing in Incognito. Maybe he'd get some of the other Olinemen to man up and play nasty for once. There isn't a lack of talent on our Oline, it's a lack of attitude.

This might be the most retarded post I have ever read. "Little girl"? Really?

It's impossible to make any sort of judgement on Jonathan Marin without knowing his mental state or being in that situation.

Dzone
11-11-2014, 03:54 PM
He sent some mean texts, he said the n word and he smashed his ferrari with a sledge hammer...How many chicks did he punch and kids did he beat?

chazoe60
11-11-2014, 03:56 PM
He sent some mean texts, he said the n word and he smashed his ferrari with a sledge hammer...How many chicks did he punch and kids did he beat?

I know one chick he was pretty mean to. :laugh::laugh:

Denver Native (Carol)
11-11-2014, 04:12 PM
Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 3h

#Broncos did work out incognito as jay glazer initially reported ... They are now evaluating what the best move is at this point.

Slick
11-11-2014, 04:14 PM
Jeff Legwold @Jeff_Legwold · 3h

#Broncos did work out incognito as jay glazer initially reported ... They are now evaluating what the best move is at this point.

They're currently reading all of the team's various message boards, taking the temperatures of the fan base. :D

Denver Native (Carol)
11-11-2014, 04:15 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 3h

Not sure where I fall on Incognito. But if there's a locker room that can handle his abrasiveness, it's the Broncos locker room.

DenBronx
11-11-2014, 04:40 PM
Heck ya!!

Ravage!!!
11-11-2014, 04:45 PM
I think Incognito is a total douche and I lambasted this dick for his previous BS....but... at this point... I'd be ok with signing him as long as he improves our OL.

DenBronx
11-11-2014, 04:46 PM
I think im going to bump the Incognito threads from awhile back. Those were classic.

DenBronx
11-11-2014, 04:56 PM
Well not so fast. Looks like the Broncos have cooled their jets for now. They might want to play the Rams and Dolphins 1st before signing him is what Glazer is reporting now. Dont want to give his two prior teams any extra motivation.

Magnificent Seven
11-11-2014, 04:58 PM
LT: Clady

LG: Incognito

C: Montgomery

RG: Vasquez

RT: Franklin

OB
11-11-2014, 05:03 PM
Would there be some kind of conduct clause in his contract?

Dzone
11-11-2014, 05:05 PM
Yes looks like they worked him out and are passing on him for now. Maybe they decided that richie is cra cra

Magnificent Seven
11-11-2014, 05:26 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 44m 44 minutes ago

I'm told no go on Incognito. Not now. Perhaps an option down the road however.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-11-2014, 05:36 PM
Why not? He got tossed from the Fins for "bullying" a giant little girl. I'm still in awe that an offensive lineman let himself be picked on to the point that he quit. That's some little girl shit. Apparently, Martin couldn't have cut it in the military either where screwing with each other is a way of life. I think Incognito is a shit talker but I doubt he'd attempt it with this locker room.

I'd have no problem bringing in Incognito. Maybe he'd get some of the other Olinemen to man up and play nasty for once. There isn't a lack of talent on our Oline, it's a lack of attitude.

This might be the most retarded post I have ever read. "Little girl"? Really?

It's impossible to make any sort of judgement on Jonathan Marin without knowing his mental state or being in that situation.

I don't give a shit about Martin's mental state. Life got tough and he quit. He was a professional football player who couldn't take being picked on "verbally". It's not like they tied him up and beat him with rubber hoses or something. They called him names. Big deal. He's not mentally tough or willing to stand up for himself, obviously.

Incognito's teammates stuck up for him after the fact. Nobody really came out and joined the Martin pity party other than the NFL (because they're a bunch of girls too), and the media because it was a "big story".

I'm not going to debate you on whether or not a 6'5", 300+ lb man should be able to handle some verbal abuse from a teammate. I have a feeling that your mind is made up and you'll just pull the victim card.

MOtorboat
11-11-2014, 05:38 PM
He's a jerk whose been kicked off of three teams. Glad Denver passed. Hopefully, they continue to pass.

Nomad
11-11-2014, 05:54 PM
Martin's a puss, and too bad Incognito didn't work out.

Slick
11-11-2014, 06:31 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 44m 44 minutes ago

I'm told no go on Incognito. Not now. Perhaps an option down the road however.

Good. I wouldn't touch him. His history is littered with horrible behavior both on and off the field. The Martin stuff is only a small part of it. Don't do it, John.

7DnBrnc53
11-11-2014, 07:01 PM
Well not so fast. Looks like the Broncos have cooled their jets for now. They might want to play the Rams and Dolphins 1st before signing him is what Glazer is reporting now. Dont want to give his two prior teams any extra motivation.

That's a good point, but if they really want him, and if they think that he can help, they should just sign him. He could go somewhere else.

broncohead
11-11-2014, 07:03 PM
I like how a lot of people were calling for Franklin's head after the super bowl and now RT is an actual issue. He played well during the season last year but after 1 bad game people wanted someone to blame...

Buff
11-11-2014, 07:15 PM
I like how a lot of people were calling for Franklin's head after the super bowl and now RT is an actual issue. He played well during the season last year but after 1 bad game people wanted someone to blame...

This is a myth that you are all perpetuating... He led the team in penalties last year and struggled in pass protection. He's leading the team in penalties again this year. I don't think Elway decided to move him based on one game. Moving Franklin back to RT is not a good solution. He might be our worst lineman.

Runamok
11-11-2014, 08:08 PM
Interesting. I kinda can't stand him and think he is a scumbag, but we really need help on the line. Surely he can keep his head screwed on straight for half a season. He knows he's on his last chance. My concerns would be what kind of shape he's in and how quickly he'd pick up the offense.

It can't hurt to bring him in for a look at least, so we'll see.

I don't know if he is actually a scumbag or just one dumb mother******.

But the real question is whether he's worth it, in either case.

Slick
11-11-2014, 08:54 PM
This is a myth that you are all perpetuating... He led the team in penalties last year and struggled in pass protection. He's leading the team in penalties again this year. I don't think Elway decided to move him based on one game. Moving Franklin back to RT is not a good solution. He might be our worst lineman.

I agree for the most part but the line was much better last year with him at RT. The moves in the offseason seem to have set the unit back as a whole.

Dzone
11-11-2014, 09:29 PM
Signing Incognito would probably cost Ben Garland his spot on the roster. Good that they didnt sign him

dogfish
11-11-2014, 09:43 PM
f*** that noise! dude was a psychotic dirtbag before he ever met jonathon martin. . . and he's not a special player-- he'd be on a team right now if he was, bullying or no. . . guy's good for a couple stupid penalties a game, and is fully capable of blowing assignments when he's not focused. . . hardly the guy i want protecting manning. . . add the fact that he doesn't know our playbook, and has never played with any of our linemen before, and i don't see how bringing him in at this point in the season helps much anyway. . . figure it out with the dudes we've got. . . bringing in incognito is just flat asking for a barrett robbins situation-- richie's about as stable as a tripod with two legs cut off. . .

Dzone
11-11-2014, 10:40 PM
Nothing motivates players like bringing in a guy for a workout. Franklin was kind of freaking out on the radio. Maybe they brought incognito in as a psychological tool. Would be nice if they would bring in some kickers

tomjonesrocks
11-11-2014, 11:44 PM
I'm glad he left without a deal.

Would an O-Line guy like that even be in close to football shape? High risk, low reward.

Just don't see that guy as a fit in Denver.

SR
11-12-2014, 12:00 AM
I'm glad he left without a deal. Would an O-Line guy like that even be in close to football shape? High risk, low reward. Just don't see that guy as a fit in Denver.

More like high risk, high reward.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 12:07 AM
This is a myth that you are all perpetuating... He led the team in penalties last year and struggled in pass protection. He's leading the team in penalties again this year. I don't think Elway decided to move him based on one game. Moving Franklin back to RT is not a good solution. He might be our worst lineman.

Wasn't it PFF that had Franklin ranked 1st-2nd among RT's last year? Ranked among top LT's overall, iirc.

GEM
11-12-2014, 12:07 AM
Nothing motivates players like bringing in a guy for a workout. Franklin was kind of freaking out on the radio. Maybe they brought incognito in as a psychological tool. Would be nice if they would bring in some kickers

I didn't hear the franklin interview, what was he saying?

tomjonesrocks
11-12-2014, 12:35 AM
Nothing motivates players like bringing in a guy for a workout. Franklin was kind of freaking out on the radio.

The DMac interview? I must not have heard it all. What I heard was a lot of "it's a business" but also sticking up for Garland and suggesting he would really not be OK if he were released.

Magnificent Seven
11-12-2014, 01:00 AM
Broncos should have signed Browns' Joe Thomas earlier. Darn.

sneakers
11-12-2014, 04:50 AM
I don't think he can be effective without someone to bully

Joel
11-12-2014, 07:03 AM
Remember last offseason, when I kept screaming for a top guard in EITHER a draft OR FA group LOADED with top guards, but everyone insisted shuffling Clark and Franklin solved all the many massive problems displayed to the world last February? Well, that blocking armada's sailed and the trade deadline's passed, so nothing's left now except guys like the misnamed Incognito. I'm glad the coaches finally acknowledged OUR ships problem requires more than rearranging deck chairs—but it's TOO LATE for anything else.

Hopefully a team loaded with Pro Bowl talent everywhere except the offenses lynchpin can make up for that most critical of deficiencies. If not... well, I also said we'd have Manning for 2 or MAYBE 3 years, and he won't keep chasing a carrot on a stick forever. It's too heartbreakingly frustrating and he has too many financial, health and residential reasons to let it go.

Legwold's had some interesting ESPN comments on and around this subject; in a Skype interview, he made a great point Icognitos history doesn't fit a team that's consistently made its own point on wnating high-character players, even using Incognitos Dolphin incident as a case in point at the time. It's too bad, because Incognitos talent and skillset is EXACTLY the kind of pulling LG we need but don't have in Franklin (though he wouldn't solve the issue at RT) and Legwold also noted in his interview that Manning played with him at a Pro Bowl Fox coached—but maybe that's the problem.... ;)
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11858778/denver-broncos-brought-free-agent-richie-incognito-workout

In another articles overview of our offenses play @Oakland, Legwold also noted we have more false starts (15) than every team except NE and Seattle, with just over ¼ of them on Franklin (4.) He also noted in the above interview that, while we've only given up 9 sacks so far, 3 came against 3-man rushes; when 5 guys can't block 3 long enough for a first ballot HoFer to complete a pass to Pro Bowl WRs, we have a dire problem indeed. But the biggest problem is that until/unless those guys learn to run block, we'll see a LOT of 7- or 8-man coverage. http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/9901/broncos-rewind-offense-24

GEM
11-12-2014, 07:10 AM
Broncos should have signed Browns' Joe Thomas earlier. Darn.

Joe Thomas was available??

Joel
11-12-2014, 07:48 AM
I think they can make clear to Incognito that he can have a Super Bowl ring if he can just play hard on the field and keep his mouth shut and stay out of trouble. He's going to get baited and he'll need to restrain himself.

As for what that does to the line, we need to find five guys who can keep Manning's jersey clean. Opening up holes in the running game is secondary.
Except opening holes in the running game forces the secondary open and slows down blitzers, which are the biggest and best ways to keep Mannings jersey clean. "Run to establish the pass," "run 'em out of Cover 2;" however we say it, it boils down to the same thing: Complementary football, which applies to offense ALONE as well as in combination with the D. Opposing defenses ignore play-action if the run threat's not credible; conversely, our passing threat's so potent we should be able to bust draws for double digits yards routinely—but they rarely reach the LINE!

I wish there were a midseason solution to problems with the heart of the offense, but Rome wasn't built in a day nor from scraps, and neither are great offensive lines.


I would like

Clady/Richie/will/Vasquez/franklin

That would be our best bet IMO.......but it seems like if we do sign him that it'll be:

Clady/franklin/will/Richie/Vasquez
Your preference makes the most sense given our few current options: We need a pulling guard now that Beadles is gone, and Franklin clearly isn't one, but Incognito is. Vasquez is an excellent RG but a poor RT; as bad as Franklin is there, he couldn't get healthy fast enough when Vasquez filled in for him last year.


This is a myth that you are all perpetuating... He led the team in penalties last year and struggled in pass protection. He's leading the team in penalties again this year. I don't think Elway decided to move him based on one game. Moving Franklin back to RT is not a good solution. He might be our worst lineman.
It's kind of amazing, in a horrifying way: Despite starting all but one game since we drafted him, Franklin somehow found a way to have MORE penalties EACH season. He only had half a dozen his rookie year, but then it went to 9, last year it was a full dozen and so far he's had 7 in 9 games this year, a pace just below last years (at least it didn't go UP again.) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FranOr00/penalties/

Individual linemen have few indicative stats; usually the best one can do without watching tape of a player for every down is compare the teams rushing average and sack totals with and without him in the lineup. Penalties are one of those few indicative individual stats though: When an offensive tackle holds and leaves early a lot, it's a sure sign he's BEATEN a lot, and either held on to prevent a tackle and/or needed a head start to prevent a better player getting around him.

BroncoWave
11-12-2014, 08:20 AM
I don't give a shit about Martin's mental state. Life got tough and he quit. He was a professional football player who couldn't take being picked on "verbally". It's not like they tied him up and beat him with rubber hoses or something. They called him names. Big deal. He's not mentally tough or willing to stand up for himself, obviously.

Incognito's teammates stuck up for him after the fact. Nobody really came out and joined the Martin pity party other than the NFL (because they're a bunch of girls too), and the media because it was a "big story".

I'm not going to debate you on whether or not a 6'5", 300+ lb man should be able to handle some verbal abuse from a teammate. I have a feeling that your mind is made up and you'll just pull the victim card.

Mental illness doesn't care how big or strong you are. Clearly he had some sort of issues that needed medical treatment. It's not something you can just "control" or "ignore" because you are a big, strong NFL player. But please, continue to show your utter ignorance on the matter. It's quite funny.

SR
11-12-2014, 09:49 AM
Mental illness doesn't care how big or strong you are. Clearly he had some sort of issues that needed medical treatment. It's not something you can just "control" or "ignore" because you are a big, strong NFL player. But please, continue to show your utter ignorance on the matter. It's quite funny.

Some people are just wired wrong though. Having seen Richie be a punkass first hand in high school, I can pretty positively say there's just something not right with him. BUT, if he can keep it at bay he is a Pro Bowl talent and could improve our OL.

GEM
11-12-2014, 10:03 AM
Some people are just wired wrong though. Having seen Richie be a punkass first hand in high school, I can pretty positively say there's just something not right with him. BUT, if he can keep it at bay he is a Pro Bowl talent and could improve our OL.

They can sign him to a incentive laden 1 year deal with a lot of outs based on history, use him this season and then move on. I think in this scenario and on this team that isn't going to put up with his shit in the locker room, it may just be worth it.

SR
11-12-2014, 10:10 AM
They can sign him to a incentive laden 1 year deal with a lot of outs based on history, use him this season and then move on. I think in this scenario and on this team that isn't going to put up with his shit in the locker room, it may just be worth it.

I agree. And I think that is the approach the FO would take as well. If Richie even thought about asking for more than the vet minimum, if I'm Elway I send him packing. Surely he knows his place and doesn't have stones big enough to go in to a workout and start making demands though.

GEM
11-12-2014, 10:12 AM
I agree. And I think that is the approach the FO would take as well. If Richie even thought about asking for more than the vet minimum, if I'm Elway I send him packing. Surely he knows his place and doesn't have stones big enough to go in to a workout and start making demands though.

With letting him walk and the turmoil this line seems to be in, do you think that's what happened? He asked for more than Elway thought he was worth?

SR
11-12-2014, 10:17 AM
With letting him walk and the turmoil this line seems to be in, do you think that's what happened? He asked for more than Elway thought he was worth?

Honestly? No. I think the stigma that comes with Richie is all that happened. I'm sure his workout went ok and I'm sure his talks with Elway or whoever went fine. Bringing a guy with that kind of wrap sheet in in the middle of a super bowl run can be taxing for a team. The OL situation is what it is, but I think the last thing anyone wants to see is more inconsistency or personnel changes than are necessary. I really feel like Denver wants to sign him but in the offseason so that he has a whole body of work behind him coming in to the regular season.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 10:44 AM
I would have liked to see them kick Jared Gaither's tires before the season too, see if he's remotely useful.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-12-2014, 11:44 AM
I don't give a shit about Martin's mental state. Life got tough and he quit. He was a professional football player who couldn't take being picked on "verbally". It's not like they tied him up and beat him with rubber hoses or something. They called him names. Big deal. He's not mentally tough or willing to stand up for himself, obviously.

Incognito's teammates stuck up for him after the fact. Nobody really came out and joined the Martin pity party other than the NFL (because they're a bunch of girls too), and the media because it was a "big story".

I'm not going to debate you on whether or not a 6'5", 300+ lb man should be able to handle some verbal abuse from a teammate. I have a feeling that your mind is made up and you'll just pull the victim card.

Mental illness doesn't care how big or strong you are. Clearly he had some sort of issues that needed medical treatment. It's not something you can just "control" or "ignore" because you are a big, strong NFL player. But please, continue to show your utter ignorance on the matter. It's quite funny.

So through your own admission Martin had potential mental problems. Check. So that's why Incognito is a bad guy? You and I are making two separate arguments. You're essentially saying Incognito is at fault for being so mean to someone with possible mental problems, I'm saying that I don't feel sorry for Martin and if he had problems that's his issue to deal with. Just saying that Incognito hurt his poor wittle feewings so he quit isn't enough for me to hate Incognito. Especially because he didn't act alone.

No, Incognito has other issues and that's why he's a "bad guy". Picking on a teammate and talking shit I'd be willing to bet happens in every locker room. The norm these days is to victimize anyone who has ever been bullied or picked on and vilify those who do.

Believe it or not, most of that stuff in a team locker room or in a unit in the military isn't just meant to degrade people. You think the coaches don't berate people? Football requires mental toughness even more than physical toughness. Obviously Martin didn't have it for whatever reason. Incognito took the blame but it was more than just him. I'm sure everyone knew it was happening including the coaching staff.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 12:12 PM
Did Philbin order the Code Red?

GEM
11-12-2014, 12:13 PM
Did Philbin order the Code Red?

Marino called in the Code Red.

Buff
11-12-2014, 12:18 PM
Did Philbin order the Code Red?

You can't handle the truth!

Bronco9798
11-12-2014, 12:28 PM
I would take Incognito in a minute if he had worked out well and was in shape and all that stuff. That O line could use someone like him with a bad boy attitude. I'd have no problems with him at all.

7DnBrnc53
11-12-2014, 12:40 PM
I would have liked to see them kick Jared Gaither's tires before the season too, see if he's remotely useful.

From what I heard, I would rather have Incognito. Gaither is totally heartless and lazy. That's why he isn't in the league anymore. He just doesn't care.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 12:47 PM
From what I heard, I would rather have Incognito. Gaither is totally heartless and lazy. That's why he isn't in the league anymore. He just doesn't care.

Yep, but he's undeniably talented and 28-29 years old. I thought Clark would do fine so I wasn't expecting a starter as much as an inexpensive emergency option. I wanted both Incognito and Gaither for this very reason, thinking Incognito could be a G-C combo backup/emergency starter.

Buff
11-12-2014, 12:49 PM
Gaither wasn't a good player. He just got opportunities because he's a massive human. Incognito was dominant and got derailed by off the field stuff. Not really in the same ballpark.

Traveler
11-12-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm guessing if we weren't playing MIA this season, Incognito would be a Bronco today. Can't imagine Elway and conpany would want to deal with the PR nightmare for that game.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 01:36 PM
You can't handle the truth!

I strenuously object! I eat breakfast 200 yards from 4000 Cubans that are trained to kill me.

Magnificent Seven
11-12-2014, 02:48 PM
Joe Thomas was available??

Yes, he was available for a while... however, Browns have decided to re-sign him.

SR
11-12-2014, 02:50 PM
And having $20M/yr tied up in two offensive linemen would be beyond stupid

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 05:32 PM
Joe Thomas extended his contract after his 4th season to become the highest paid OL in the league, unless you count trade rumors Thomas was never really available. And the Browns wisely gave Mike Lombardi the boot before The Patriot Way could cost their franchise its best player.

DenBronx
11-12-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm guessing if we weren't playing MIA this season, Incognito would be a Bronco today. Can't imagine Elway and conpany would want to deal with the PR nightmare for that game.


Wouldn't shock me if they sign him after that game. Still could use him down the stretch.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-12-2014, 06:16 PM
Rod Mackey - local sports - just said they brought Incognito in as a wake up call for the guys here.

Buff
11-12-2014, 06:22 PM
Rod Mackey - local sports - just said they brought Incognito in as a wake up call for the guys here.

I don't think Elway was bluffing just to motivate his guys. I think he was kicking the tires on a legitimate potential replacement and a fringe benefit of that is that it motivates the guys whose jobs are in jeopardy.

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 06:29 PM
For that reason alone we should sign Richie.

Incognito is no Joe Asamoah but he hasn't drawn the ire of the foremost authority on OL play. . .yet.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-12-2014, 08:42 PM
Rod Mackey - local sports - just said they brought Incognito in as a wake up call for the guys here.

All the guys who do shows on Sirius NFL radio think we should sign him. They think he's learned his lesson and that our leadership in the locker room could keep him in check.

broncohead
11-12-2014, 09:03 PM
This is a myth that you are all perpetuating... He led the team in penalties last year and struggled in pass protection. He's leading the team in penalties again this year. I don't think Elway decided to move him based on one game. Moving Franklin back to RT is not a good solution. He might be our worst lineman.

You're right he isn't a great pass protector and he is penalized a lot. But he is a good run blocker and better than anyone else we've had at RT this year. The myth is people saying how bad he was last year. There wasn't a word about it all season (at least I didn't see anything) till the super bowl.

Buff
11-12-2014, 09:56 PM
You're right he isn't a great pass protector and he is penalized a lot. But he is a good run blocker and better than anyone else we've had at RT this year. The myth is people saying how bad he was last year. There wasn't a word about it all season (at least I didn't see anything) till the super bowl.

Well the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... The team obviously felt like Franklin left us vulnerable... So we need to fortify that right side somehow and neither Franklin, Clark nor Cornick seem to be the answer.

NightTerror218
11-13-2014, 12:19 AM
Well the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... The team obviously felt like Franklin left us vulnerable... So we need to fortify that right side somehow and neither Franklin, Clark nor Cornick seem to be the answer.

Because Vasquez can not help Manny and Franklin at same time. IMO Manny is the weak link.

Hawgdriver
11-13-2014, 12:49 AM
So what's the verdict on Beadles?

Davii
11-13-2014, 03:06 AM
You're right he isn't a great pass protector and he is penalized a lot. But he is a good run blocker and better than anyone else we've had at RT this year. The myth is people saying how bad he was last year. There wasn't a word about it all season (at least I didn't see anything) till the super bowl.

He actually graded out, according to PFF, 4 times better in pass pro than he did in run blocking. Zeadles graded out better than Richie as a run blocker.

dogfish
11-13-2014, 07:10 PM
They think he's learned his lesson and that our leadership in the locker room could keep him in check.

it cracks me up when people say that he's "learned his lesson". . . i think it's ridiculous to judge ritchie as though he's a rational guy, when he clearly never has been. . . he doesn't control his temper-- it controls him. . . dude ain't wired right. . .

Slick
11-13-2014, 07:41 PM
it cracks me up when people say that he's "learned his lesson". . . i think it's ridiculous to judge ritchie as though he's a rational guy, when he clearly never has been. . . he doesn't control his temper-- it controls him. . . dude ain't wired right. . .

How many colleges did he get kicked out of? How many pro teams sent him packing? He's a nutcase.

Shazam!
11-13-2014, 07:43 PM
They think he's learned his lesson and that our leadership in the locker room could keep him in check.

it cracks me up when people say that he's "learned his lesson". . . i think it's ridiculous to judge ritchie as though he's a rational guy, when he clearly never has been. . . he doesn't control his temper-- it controls him. . . dude ain't wired right. . .

If straight up felons ala Vick (NOT that I agreed he should).can come back, Incognito should receive the same as well.

SR
11-13-2014, 09:24 PM
How many colleges did he get kicked out of? How many pro teams sent him packing? He's a nutcase.

He got kicked out of Nebraska. And I don't think STL sent him packing so to speak. I thought I went to Buffalo as a free agent. Could be wrong.

Slick
11-13-2014, 09:50 PM
He got kicked out of Nebraska. And I don't think STL sent him packing so to speak. I thought I went to Buffalo as a free agent. Could be wrong.

Oregon told him to hit the bricks too. I was going off his wiki page. He doesn't sound like a rational human being.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-13-2014, 10:37 PM
Oregon told him to hit the bricks too. I was going off his wiki page. He doesn't sound like a rational human being.

He lasted at Oregon all of 2-3 weeks. It is dilusional to suggest he's learned his lesson. He's a 30 something year old man who has repeatedly acted like an idiot.

dogfish
11-13-2014, 11:40 PM
How many colleges did he get kicked out of? How many pro teams sent him packing? He's a nutcase.

well, yea, but i'm sure he's learned his lesson this time. . . ritchie is a changed man, babypops. . .





He got kicked out of Nebraska. And I don't think STL sent him packing so to speak. I thought I went to Buffalo as a free agent. Could be wrong.

they did sent him packing-- cut him mid-season because they couldn't put up with the idiot anymore. . .


The St. Louis Rams have released guard Richie Incognito, two days after he received a pair of personal fouls and got into a verbal confrontation with coach Steve Spagnuolo on the sideline during the Rams’ loss to the Tennessee Titans.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/15/rams-release-richie-incognito/

dogfish
11-13-2014, 11:43 PM
If straight up felons ala Vick (NOT that I agreed he should).can come back, Incognito should receive the same as well.

bah. . . just because the jets employ a dirtbag loser, it doesn't mean we should. . .

and if we're going to, go get me adrian effin' peterson next year, not an inconsistent and easily-distracted guard, who is a known problem "child" on the wrong side of thirty. . . may as well make it count if you're gonna go that route. . .

SR
11-13-2014, 11:59 PM
well, yea, but i'm sure he's learned his lesson this time. . . ritchie is a changed man, babypops. . . they did sent him packing-- cut him mid-season because they couldn't put up with the idiot anymore. . . http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/15/rams-release-richie-incognito/

Thanks for the correction

Shazam!
11-14-2014, 12:02 AM
If straight up felons ala Vick (NOT that I agreed he should).can come back, Incognito should receive the same as well.

bah. . . just because the jets employ a dirtbag loser, it doesn't mean we should. . .

and if we're going to, go get me adrian effin' peterson next year, not an inconsistent and easily-distracted guard, who is a known problem "child" on the wrong side of thirty. . . may as well make it count if you're gonna go that route. . .

I'm not using Vick is the prime example, i hate him.

dogfish
11-14-2014, 12:11 AM
Thanks for the correction

gotcha back. . . read a bit (http://nypost.com/2013/11/09/booze-beefs-and-brawls-incognitos-history-of-violence/) about the guy if you haven't heard about all the dumb shit he's been into over the years-- dude is a freakin' knucklehead, it's been a very consistent pattern. . . not worth messin' with, IMO. . .

if they wanted to replace manny with montgomery, i still think they should have gone back to clark at RT, and just sucked it up and accepted that he's not a great run blocker. . .

Nomad
11-14-2014, 08:23 AM
He's not coming to Denver, so what's the fuss about still.:lol:

PatriotsGuy
11-14-2014, 10:38 AM
He's not coming to Denver, so what's the fuss about still.:lol:

This is how the internet and football fans operate, Nomad :D

Cugel
11-14-2014, 12:14 PM
Richie is a dumb shit, no doubt, but even working out with Denver he has to know it's the chance of a lifetime. And honestly, Denver could use a little nasty on the offensive side of the ball.

The biggest problem with Incognito isn't even that he's a major league *******, which he is. He's the typical high-school bully, except he's not in High School and he never grew up. Nothing I've heard from him since he got cut by the Dolphins indicates he understands that HE put himself in that position, by being an *******. He thinks it was all unfair and that he did nothing wrong. Well, if you did nothing wrong moron, then why are you in trouble all the time? He seems to think he was just fine and out of left field Jonathan Martin just turned out to be a sissy and blind-sided him. Well, why didn't you leave him alone, idiot? Just mind your own business and let other professionals take care of theirs. That's how professional sports athletes handle things - if they've got a clue.

But, the real problem for the Broncos wouldn't be in the locker room. It's that he's just a total dumb-ass. He can't help it. He's going to be drunk in some club, and cause a problem, because that's just who he is. He's a redneck racist dirt-bag and he can't change who he is. And it will be in the news, and the media will be asking questions.

Guy is just not worth the trouble. Guy's had about 10 chances before now and he keeps screwing up. At some point, you can't expect him to change and we're well past that point.

Cugel
11-14-2014, 12:23 PM
He's not coming to Denver, so what's the fuss about still.:lol:

Because it's not at all over. He's not coming to Denver THIS WEEK! They didn't close the door on this ass-hat. They're waiting to see how the OL performs against the Rams before they take a chance on Incognito. And I'm against giving him a chance. He's had all the damn chances he's worth and he keeps screwing up. Just go on Youtube and check out all the video of him being a dumb-ass, drunk and causing a scene in some club or restaurant, because that is just how he rolls.

Why is this any different than when the fans got down on Brandon Marshall (WR) for all the domestic violence and hanging out with gang members? Incognito is just a bad guy. Period.

Nomad
11-14-2014, 12:28 PM
If he can block and helps the BRONCOS to wins, then so be it. Let the locker room handle him. Most of you would have ran Romo out of town with the PC crap. But he made plays while in Denver that was the difference in games.

I'm trusting the FO is looking at his lack of abilities rather than not being a fan favorite.

Ravage!!!
11-14-2014, 12:36 PM
I'm just looking for THIS year. I don't think he could come in and cause havoc THIS season. After this year, then we look to do what we can to shore up the OL. But this sesaon, RIGHT NOW, this OL needs help. If we can bring someone in that can help solve that problem, then I'm all for it.... douche or not douche. I'm ok with bringing in a douche for short-term.

Cugel
11-14-2014, 12:45 PM
If he can block and helps the BRONCOS to wins, then so be it. Let the locker room handle him. Most of you would have ran Romo out of town with the PC crap. But he made plays while in Denver that was the difference in games.

I'm trusting the FO is looking at his lack of abilities rather than not being a fan favorite.

Do any of you really think that inside the locker-room is where this guy will cause problems? He'll probably be on his best behavior inside the locker room. He'd better be after all the crap he's caused in other cities.

But, it's OUTSIDE the locker room, where he gets drunk in restaurants and clubs and starts causing problems and starting fights and wandering around the club shouting without his shirt on, and basically being a dumb-ass who causes trouble and gets in the papers. Because that's what he does. It's like those dumb-ass Broncos who can't seem to manage to stay out of that all-nude club near the facility and they just keep getting in trouble.

I think maybe the team told the players that place is off-limits or something because for a while it seemed like every month there was some kind of incident at that place with some Broncos players and now we don't hear anything more (knock on wood).

People just assume that he'd be this great OL. He was OK for a while, but could he even learn the Peyton Manning offense during the middle of the season?

This move smacks of desperation.

Ravage!!!
11-14-2014, 02:53 PM
People just assume that he'd be this great OL. He was OK for a while, but could he even learn the Peyton Manning offense during the middle of the season?

This move smacks of desperation.

Yes he could since OL's blocking is the same throughout all systems..... and it might be to the point that we are desperate. If not desperate, at a HIGH need.

SR
11-14-2014, 02:56 PM
Yes he could since OL's blocking is the same throughout all systems..... and it might be to the point that we are desperate. If not desperate, at a HIGH need.

OL blocking is the same throughout all systems huh

Simple Jaded
11-15-2014, 10:42 PM
So what's the verdict on Beadles?

Who?

Simple Jaded
11-15-2014, 10:44 PM
I'm just looking for THIS year. I don't think he could come in and cause havoc THIS season. After this year, then we look to do what we can to shore up the OL. But this sesaon, RIGHT NOW, this OL needs help. If we can bring someone in that can help solve that problem, then I'm all for it.... douche or not douche. I'm ok with bringing in a douche for short-term.

They say you shouldn't douche too much, but sometimes you have to douche. You should douche when you stink, I always say.

DenBronx
11-16-2014, 05:23 PM
We have to sign him after the Miami game now. This teams OL has major issues.

Davii
11-16-2014, 08:43 PM
Sign him tomorrow. I don't know if he's any better than what we have or not, but our OL play has been unacceptable and something must change. Maybe even just bringing him in changes some attitudes and causes some guys to fight for their jobs and play better.

Nomad
11-16-2014, 08:45 PM
Curious as to why he wasn't signed in the first place?

HORSEPOWER 56
11-16-2014, 08:55 PM
They say you shouldn't douche too much, but sometimes you have to douche. You should douche when you stink, I always say.

Well, right now our O-line stinks so I guess that means douche?

Nomad
11-16-2014, 08:57 PM
You think Manning has any influence on the decision?

SR
11-16-2014, 08:59 PM
You think Manning has any influence on the decision?
Absolutely

Nomad
11-16-2014, 09:01 PM
Absolutely

You think he took the altar boy approach?

Davii
11-16-2014, 09:10 PM
You think he took the altar boy approach?

It's possible that Incognito wasn't in shape... he hasn't played in a year. ... also possible they wanted to give the new line another week.

Joel
11-16-2014, 09:11 PM
At this point, the only thing I'd hate more than bringing Incognito to Denver is NOT bringing him. It really IS a recipe for disaster; between Franklins sulky TC tweets about the move to LG and grousing in local radio interviews about Incognitos tryout, losing the spot to him could get really ugly really fast. I'd like to think Incognito'd be on his best behavior knowing he IS on his last chance, but that just doesn't fit his history, so I wouldn't be surprised if Franklin got whiney and Incognito gave him what-for—or even did it unprompted. But I just see no other viable options; he's a quality guard, and we need one desperately.

Nomad
11-16-2014, 09:22 PM
It's possible that Incognito wasn't in shape... he hasn't played in a year. ... also possible they wanted to give the new line another week.

I hope this is the case, and not that the FO didn't like his answers, or Manning didn't want someone like Incognito in the locker room.

SR
11-16-2014, 09:40 PM
At this point, the only thing I'd hate more than bringing Incognito to Denver is NOT bringing him. It really IS a recipe for disaster; between Franklins sulky TC tweets about the move to LG and grousing in local radio interviews about Incognitos tryout, losing the spot to him could get really ugly really fast. I'd like to think Incognito'd be on his best behavior knowing he IS on his last chance, but that just doesn't fit his history, so I wouldn't be surprised if Franklin got whiney and Incognito gave him what-for—or even did it unprompted. But I just see no other viable options; he's a quality guard, and we need one desperately.

**** Franklin. Bring Richie in and sit Franklin's ass on the bench.

SR
11-16-2014, 09:41 PM
I hope this is the case, and not that the FO didn't like his answers, or Manning didn't want someone like Incognito in the locker room.

IMO, if this coaching staff wants to show they have any balls at all they will bring someone in, albeit Richie or not, without asking Manning. Clearly, Manning isn't getting it done.

Joel
11-16-2014, 10:17 PM
**** Franklin. Bring Richie in and sit Franklin's ass on the bench.
We may actually agree on something at last. Although... as bad as Franklin was at RT, none of his successors have been any better. One problem at a time, I guess: Incognito would solve the LG problem if he can keep his head straight; we'll have to find another solution to the RT problem. And the C problem (though I haven't heard Montgomerys name much, which is usually a good sign.)

Geez, what a mess; to think it was an elite offensive line and the coaches appreciation of it that drew me to the Broncos in the first place. Things have certainly changed....

SR
11-16-2014, 10:19 PM
We may actually agree on something at last. Although... as bad as Franklin was at RT, none of his successors have been any better. One problem at a time, I guess: Incognito would solve the LG problem if he can keep his head straight; we'll have to find another solution to the RT problem. And the C problem (though I haven't heard Montgomerys name much, which is usually a good sign.) Geez, what a mess; to think it was an elite offensive line and the coaches appreciation of it that drew me to the Broncos in the first place. Things have certainly changed....

I change my stance.

Simple Jaded
11-16-2014, 11:31 PM
Well, right now our O-line stinks so I guess that means douche?

Doucher up!

CrazyHorse
11-16-2014, 11:40 PM
Sign him. The reward outweighs the risk. Plus I'm sure he'd like to stick it to his former team.

Simple Jaded
11-17-2014, 12:10 AM
Wouldn't even be a given Incognito starts, the best time to bring him in was offseason/bye week, but nobody knew the OL would take this long to gel. And for all we know the breakdowns in pass pro are blown protection calls, so if he does start that could exacerbate those issues. However, it sure as **** can't hurt the running game.

LT -- Clady
LG -- Incognito or Cornick (don't laugh)
C -- Ramirez or the guy from Redskins.
RG -- Vasquez
RT -- Franklin

Move Vasquez and Ramirez back to where they belong, open the competition at C. Move Franklin back to where he played so well, imo it was good in theory but it didn't work, wasn't the first time I'd been wrong I can tell ya that much. Bring in competition at LG and let it all hang out.

CrazyHorse
11-17-2014, 12:18 AM
Clark is also a possibility at LG. I'm sure Elway understands it's an issue and does something proactive about it.

Simple Jaded
11-17-2014, 12:25 AM
Clark is also a possibility at LG. I'm sure Elway understands it's an issue and does something proactive about it.

That's a good idea too, not sure if Clark being the clear cut backup at LT is good or bad if he starts at LG.

Joel
11-17-2014, 12:37 AM
Clark is also a possibility at LG. I'm sure Elway understands it's an issue and does something proactive about it.
Meh; I'm over the "let's use a slow clumsy guy as our primary pulling guard" thing. It failed with Franklin, for reasons obvious in retrospect, and Clark would probably be as much worse than Franklin at his new spot as at his old one. Incognito made the Pro Bowl at LG, so we'd "only" have 2 gaping holes to fill instead of 3; if Montgomery works out, that would leave just one, and we'd have at least a little flexibility to see if Ramirez has finally learned how to play G well enough to justify sticking an All Pro RG at RT (which I strongly doubt, but if not, back to Vasquez inside and Franklin on the edge.)

How I WISH we'd taken care of this in the draft or FA; both were LOADED with great G talent, so I screamed for it, but even I never dreamed last years line would get even WORSE after Cladys return.

Buff
11-17-2014, 10:39 AM
I say we have nothing to lose at this point - go and get him.

GEM
11-17-2014, 10:57 AM
Wouldn't even be a given Incognito starts, the best time to bring him in was offseason/bye week, but nobody knew the OL would take this long to gel. And for all we know the breakdowns in pass pro are blown protection calls, so if he does start that could exacerbate those issues. However, it sure as **** can't hurt the running game.

LT -- Clady
LG -- Incognito or Cornick (don't laugh)
C -- Ramirez or the guy from Redskins.
RG -- Vasquez
RT -- Franklin

Move Vasquez and Ramirez back to where they belong, open the competition at C. Move Franklin back to where he played so well, imo it was good in theory but it didn't work, wasn't the first time I'd been wrong I can tell ya that much. Bring in competition at LG and let it all hang out.

I just told my coworker that same line.

Clady
Incognito
Manram (Peyton seems to have happy feet from the get go with Montgomery)
Vasquez
Franklin.

Valar Morghulis
11-19-2014, 08:50 AM
Is it possible we sent Incognito away for a few weeks to get in shape until after the dolphins game?

7DnBrnc53
11-19-2014, 08:52 AM
Is it possible we sent Incognito away for a few weeks to get in shape until after the dolphins game?

We'll know in a week. I was watching a video that someone posted on what Stephen A. Smith said, and he totally is on board with Denver getting Richie. He said that they need an attitude up front. I agree.

Joel
11-19-2014, 03:28 PM
So why hasn't this happened yet? In the offseason, when there was tons of guard talent available in both free agency and a guard-heavy draft, I'd understand a delay, but Incognito's pretty much the only game in town now, and we desperately need help. It wouldn't solve our problem at C, and Franklin's not much better than the bad alternatives we've tried at RT, but we could solve ONE big problem right now:

What's the hold up? I don't WANT the dude, but must admit we NEED him.

Valar Morghulis
11-19-2014, 03:39 PM
Joel - you repeat your point of view so often it is alarming.

No one on this board can go back in time and pick up a guard in last years free agency. You need to let that go. The FO went with a plan they thought would work - it was not as successful as they planned. Now there are concerns - deal with the present rather than berating the past.

Joel
11-19-2014, 04:51 PM
They went with a plan I said over and over COULDN'T work, knowing just how bad our line was and just how much it cost us: Gase said point blank our impotent run game letting Seattle sell out on the pass with no risk cost us the SB, just as I said beforehand I feared. It's MADDENING: There was just ONE missing piece, the coaches KNEW it was missing and had MULTIPLE great options to fix it—yet here we are.

As I say, I need a cooling off period; it's no fun having the Broncos FO prove me right and even publicly admit it if they STILL refuse to solve the obvious problem. I don't know what to compare it to; if someone asks if they can repeatedly incessantly kick you in the nuts and you say yes, whose fault is it?

Runamok
11-19-2014, 05:01 PM
Just got an Espn update that said they were considering signing him after working him out.

Good God, I'm gonna puke.


Maybe after they sign that scumbag, they can pick up Blount, too, to guarantee the poisoning of the entire locker room....?

I mean, Fox is talking about running the ball more, to balance the attack. Unfortunately nobody has told him yet that there aren't any real RBs left available on the roster for awhile.

Valar Morghulis
11-19-2014, 05:16 PM
your banter sucks ass and you are boring - the worst kind of troll

Ravage!!!
11-19-2014, 05:37 PM
They went with a plan I said over and over COULDN'T work, knowing just how bad our line was and just how much it cost us: Gase said point blank our impotent run game letting Seattle sell out on the pass with no risk cost us the SB, just as I said beforehand I feared. It's MADDENING: There was just ONE missing piece, the coaches KNEW it was missing and had MULTIPLE great options to fix it—yet here we are.

As I say, I need a cooling off period; it's no fun having the Broncos FO prove me right and even publicly admit it if they STILL refuse to solve the obvious problem. I don't know what to compare it to; if someone asks if they can repeatedly incessantly kick you in the nuts and you say yes, whose fault is it?

I wish the answers to "fix" somethign were as simple as knowing that you are going to bitch over and over (on every post) about the same things.

Seriously... quit this crap. We know you have bitched about EVERY aspect of this team. If something went wrong, you would be sure to have your lanes covered and tell us how "right" you were....because after all, you read a book. IF ONLY the Broncos could find someone that read taht damned book!!!!!!!

Joel
11-19-2014, 06:05 PM
I wish the answers to "fix" somethign were as simple as knowing that you are going to bitch over and over (on every post) about the same things.

Seriously... quit this crap. We know you have bitched about EVERY aspect of this team. If something went wrong, you would be sure to have your lanes covered and tell us how "right" you were....because after all, you read a book. IF ONLY the Broncos could find someone that read taht damned book!!!!!!!
EVERY aspect? No, it's been the offensive line and resulting impotent run game, all day, every day. The only other thing I've complained about is the lack of a MLB worthy of the name, but we've got so much talent at ALL other defensive positions that that didn't cost us a SB: The line did. That—and that ALONE—is what I vocally feared going into the SB, just as it's what Gase LATER said cost us that game.

Why would reading one of the last 30 years' most influential books on football somehow make me LESS astute? Frankly, you make a poor case for illiterate geniuses. LOTS of people (surely including at least some of the Broncos staff) have read that book; its fingerprints on both the modern NFL and fantasy football are unmistakable, and Football Outsiders built a whole website around the thing. The fact two of the authors were former guards may color its take some, but not much; EVERYONE knows both sides of football starts in the trenches.

If you're waiting for me to apologize for knowing how to read, you'll wait a long time.

SR
11-19-2014, 07:16 PM
You can read?

Joel
11-19-2014, 07:23 PM
You can read?
Yes: It somehow makes me an awful ignorant person—but that comment "was not directed at any particular individual and was not intended to slander,disrespect or offend any reader of said statement."

SR
11-19-2014, 07:30 PM
Yes: It somehow makes me an awful ignorant person—but that comment "was not directed at any particular individual and was not intended to slander,disrespect or offend any reader of said statement."

I missed the whole book thing. What book did you read?

Joel
11-19-2014, 07:49 PM
I missed the whole book thing. What book did you read?
The Hidden Game of Football. It was a Christmas present the year published, and I imprinted heavily on it. Not enough to found a whole statistical and analytic website on it like Football Outsiders, but there's a TON of good insightful stuff in there, humorously presented by MLBs current Official Historian and the founder of the Professional Football Research Association. It's where I learned of former Bengals starting QB Virgil Carter (AKA the brilliant laser, noodle arm for whom Bill Walsh invented the West Coast Offense, though the book ignored that in citing his pioneering "Operations Research on Football" article.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Game_of_Football


It was the first systematic statistical approach to analyzing American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) in a book and is still considered the seminal work on the topic.
Since it was written in 1988, that's quite a lasting accomplishment; its influence has survived one of the three authors.

SR
11-19-2014, 09:54 PM
Hmm

Joel
11-19-2014, 10:33 PM
I forgot to mention that book invented and defined Win Probability. The big thing was that, in an age when personal computers were still an expensive luxury item, the authors had access to some pretty powerful computers that made it a simple matter to ask Elias for three seasons worth of play-by-plays and crunch the numbers, so that's just what they did. The results were illuminating in countless ways, not least because of the authors extensive previous experience with sports statistical analysis.

It's basically sabermetrics for football, though that's a lot harder to do in football because it's a lot harder to isolate individual achievement.

Simple Jaded
11-19-2014, 10:40 PM
The Broncos proved Joel right about something? Inconceivable.

dogfish
11-20-2014, 01:08 AM
As I say, I need a cooling off period;

or, maybe you need to realize that it is a freaking GAME, and that you aren't entitled to sqaut from the broncos. . .

yep, i'm pretty sure that's the ticket. . .




"cooling off period"-- that's rich. . . . :lol:

DenBronx
11-20-2014, 07:53 AM
At this point Richie will only upgrade what we have. He's proven on the field and just needs to stay out of trouble in the locker room/off the field. He's a risk worth taking and playing in a Manning offense should make him look even better.

Now...is the ***hole in shape or not? That's the real question. Bet we sign him after Sunday.

Valar Morghulis
11-20-2014, 01:20 PM
At this point Richie will only upgrade what we have. He's proven on the field and just needs to stay out of trouble in the locker room/off the field. He's a risk worth taking and playing in a Manning offense should make him look even better.

Now...is the ***hole in shape or not? That's the real question. Bet we sign him after Sunday.

Yeah - i dont even think he is a locker room cancer - the dolphins players all came out in support of him, they really liked the dude - get him in ASAP

underrated29
11-20-2014, 01:54 PM
At this point Richie will only upgrade what we have. He's proven on the field and just needs to stay out of trouble in the locker room/off the field. He's a risk worth taking and playing in a Manning offense should make him look even better.

Now...is the ***hole in shape or not? That's the real question. Bet we sign him after Sunday.




I will be rather disappointed if we dont. Not that i want him that badly but shit. We are in a load of shit if we cannot get the OL some sort of push.


I still am very saddened by the likely fact that Franklin will not be moved back to RT (where I believe he should go) but at least we can get Manram out of the lineup.

Valar Morghulis
11-20-2014, 02:16 PM
Good God, I'm gonna puke.


Maybe after they sign that scumbag, they can pick up Blount, too, to guarantee the poisoning of the entire locker room....?

I mean, Fox is talking about running the ball more, to balance the attack. Unfortunately nobody has told him yet that there aren't any real RBs left available on the roster for awhile.

I believe Mr Blount is once more a Pat - the locker room cancer that he is.......idiot

SR
11-20-2014, 02:25 PM
I believe Mr Blount is once more a Pat - the locker room cancer that he is.......idiot

Yep. Two year deal

Cugel
11-20-2014, 02:54 PM
At this point Richie will only upgrade what we have. He's proven on the field and just needs to stay out of trouble in the locker room/off the field. He's a risk worth taking and playing in a Manning offense should make him look even better.

Now...is the ***hole in shape or not? That's the real question. Bet we sign him after Sunday.

Bet we don't. If they really thought Incognito would help, he'd already be signed. Why wait an extra week or 2 at this point in the season?

It was a desperation move to bring him in. Clearly they were not that impressed with what he showed in a workout or they would never have let him go without a contract. He would not have cost them that much to sign for the rest of the season. Probably he'd get the veteran minimum, so cost wasn't a factor.

And they all knew what his off-field history was before they asked him to come in so that wasn't a factor. They must not have liked his conditioning or his workout.

Cugel
11-20-2014, 02:57 PM
Yeah - i dont even think he is a locker room cancer - the dolphins players all came out in support of him, they really liked the dude - get him in ASAP

You know that all the fans are arguing about whether he's a poison in the locker room, when Elway & Fox are not concerned about that at all!

They knew his entire history BEFORE they brought him in so it couldn't have bothered them that much.

So, they clearly didn't like something else, and what could that have been but his workout?

Joel
11-20-2014, 05:54 PM
You know that all the fans are arguing about whether he's a poison in the locker room, when Elway & Fox are not concerned about that at all!

They knew his entire history BEFORE they brought him in so it couldn't have bothered them that much.

So, they clearly didn't like something else, and what could that have been but his workout?
Before pursuing that logic too far: Remember, you're talking about the judgement of someone who last year told the press Chris Clark's "the best backup OT in the league." Sadly, this coaching staff and front offices inability to distinguish between great, average and awful offensive linemen is why we're in this mess; it's not like they didn't have plenty of chances to upgrade: They just didn't think it NECESSARY.

DenBronx
11-20-2014, 06:05 PM
At this point Richie will only upgrade what we have. He's proven on the field and just needs to stay out of trouble in the locker room/off the field. He's a risk worth taking and playing in a Manning offense should make him look even better.

Now...is the ***hole in shape or not? That's the real question. Bet we sign him after Sunday.

Bet we don't. If they really thought Incognito would help, he'd already be signed. Why wait an extra week or 2 at this point in the season?.


Because we're playing Miami this week. You know....the team that both Richie and Martin played on. Why give them extra motivation or break the press? After that game it won't be as big of a story and guys can just play.

Valar Morghulis
11-20-2014, 09:11 PM
Before pursuing that logic too far: Remember, you're talking about the judgement of someone who last year told the press Chris Clark's "the best backup OT in the league." Sadly, this coaching staff and front offices inability to distinguish between great, average and awful offensive linemen is why we're in this mess; it's not like they didn't have plenty of chances to upgrade: They just didn't think it NECESSARY.

Did he give up 3 strip sacks as well

Joel
11-20-2014, 09:14 PM
Did he give up 3 strip sacks as well
No, but Clark did at the same time Fox called him the NFLs best backup OT. If that's the best, I'd hate to see the worst. Those strip-sacks cost us a game, and nearly cost us THREE.

Cugel
11-20-2014, 09:24 PM
Before pursuing that logic too far: Remember, you're talking about the judgement of someone who last year told the press Chris Clark's "the best backup OT in the league." Sadly, this coaching staff and front offices inability to distinguish between great, average and awful offensive linemen is why we're in this mess; it's not like they didn't have plenty of chances to upgrade: They just didn't think it NECESSARY.

Your point about Elway believing in Chris Clark as his starting RT, sight unseen, is sadly completely accurate. As is the insane decision to move Manny Ramirez to C and just assume he'd be fine.

Of course Elway threw away the Broncos best chance to win the SB this season because he went after defensive players like TJ Ward and ignored getting a stud RT and a starting C.

But, all that misses the point. Having rammed the Titanic into the iceberg, Elway was forced to take some desperation measures.

So, they called Incognito in for a visit and worked him out.

Now, nothing in his character and locker room presence has changed since he was cut. They knew everything about what happened in Miami. Since they called him in that couldn't have bothered them.

So, why didn't they sign him? The answer must be that they didn't like what they saw in his workout. Either he wasn't in football shape or he didn't look good enough in drills or whatever.

In short they didn't sign him for FOOTBALL reasons, not character reasons. They didn't think he could help them. And frankly, I don't see why they would ever have thought he could. Real desperation move there, because how could he learn a new offense, get into football shape and learn to play as an integral part of the OL coming in the 10th week of the season!

IF they were going to sign him it should have been in July, not November!

Cugel
11-20-2014, 09:27 PM
As for being "necessary", they chose to spend their money in other areas - specifically bringing in TJ Ward and giving him a $22 million contract, with $13.5 million guaranteed including a $5 million signing bonus. (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/den/broncos)

Now, I ask you why the Flaming Hell they did that? Sure, it's nice getting a better secondary.

But, what the HELL SB did John Elway watch? Because in the one I saw the Broncos did not lose because their defense wasn't good enough. They lost because their OL play was horrible and Peyton Manning couldn't get time to throw. The Seahawks said all SB week that they would change nothing and force the Broncos to adapt to their defense. That meant leaving Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas in single coverage on the outside, putting 5 men in the box to smother any underneath throws and rushing only 4 DL. Their theory was that Peyton wouldn't have more than 2 seconds before Michael Bennett would be in his face, and he'd have no time for any receivers to get open over the top of the defense despite the one-on-one coverages. Their defenders would come up and smother the receivers in that 10 yd box and force incompletes and interceptions.

That's what happened all day. The OL couldn't protect Peyton and the Broncos were crushed.

So, job #1 in the off-season was to get the best OL that money could buy. Everything else was secondary! Get a STUD RT, a stud C and leave Clark and Franklin as backup Ts. Leave Ramirez and Vasquez at G. Go directly to SB and win this time.

Because Peyton is a statue. If you give him 3-4 seconds to survey the field and throw to the open receiver there is no defense in the league that can stop him. None, not even the Seahawks. But, if you put a defender in his face in 2 seconds and he starts looking like Jay Cutler. Everybody knew this going in.

Frankly, getting Demarcus Ware was nice, but they could win the SB without him. The cannot win without a RT and C who can block pass-rushers. They cannot win if they cannot run the ball because their RBs get hit in the backfield so they can only rush 9 times!

Simple Jaded
11-20-2014, 10:11 PM
It's almost as if the Broncos don't hate their OL as much as The Twin Pouters do.

Joel
11-20-2014, 10:30 PM
It's almost as if the Broncos don't hate their OL as much as The Twin Pouters do.
Yup, they're clearly convinced just indefinitely rearranging deck chairs and telling the band to play on will retroactively dodge that iceberg. It's almost as if Elway doesn't remember why he got blown out in 3 SBs in his prime, or won 2 straight at Mannings age. In case you missed it, I'm no longer the one saying we can't pass if we can't run: Our OC said it cost us the SB. I'm no longer the one saying we should fire our offensive linemen and start over: The All Pro Broncos guard with 3 SB Rings is saying it. Someone used to tell me TRUE fans don't think themselves smarter than our coaches.... ;)

Joel
11-20-2014, 10:34 PM
As for being "necessary", they chose to spend their money in other areas - specifically bringing in TJ Ward and giving him a $22 million contract, with $13.5 million guaranteed including a $5 million signing bonus. (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/den/broncos)
With incentives, we're potentially paying Montgomery as much as Asamoah, who's better and younger. And drafting Su'a-Filo, Yankey or Jackson wouldn't have cost us a dime more than Roby.

We didn't reject top guards in favor of someone else: We just flat rejected them, despite KNOWING our porous offensive line cost historys best offense a SB drubbing. I honestly don't know why. Particularly since Elway publicly said "our defense kept us in" the SB till the offense had lost it beyond retrieval, and with fully HALF our defensive starters out hurt. It wasn't an either/or choice, but IF we were going to spend big, one would think it would be on the unit so bad it cost us a championship rather than the ONLY unit who played well in the SB. It's a real head-scratcher, particularly given Elways playing history.

MOtorboat
11-21-2014, 12:37 AM
With incentives, we're potentially paying Montgomery as much as Asamoah, who's better and younger. And drafting Su'a-Filo, Yankey or Jackson wouldn't have cost us a time more than Roby.

We didn't reject top guards in favor of someone else: We just flat rejected them, despite KNOWING our porous offensive line cost historys best offense a SB drubbing. I honestly don't know why. Particularly since Elway publicly said "our defense kept us in" the SB till the offense had lost it beyond retrieval, and with fully HALF our defensive starters out hurt. It wasn't an either/or choice, but IF we were going to spend big, one would think it would be on the unit so bad it cost us a championship rather than the ONLY unit who played well in the SB. It's a real head-scratcher, particularly given Elways playing history.

Yeah. I'm sure drafting three backup guards would have fixed all the problems...

For those wondering, the three guards Joel wanted drafted have started a combined one game. While Roby is Denver's nickel back and has played a significant role in all 10 games.

Joel
11-21-2014, 02:40 PM
The difference is we already had a pretty good nickelback in Webster: What else have we got at G? A converted DT who's spent most of his career on Air Force active duty and the Broncos PS. Maybe we should've just drafted 5 QBs; y'know, in case something happens to Manning, since we have no needs MORE URGENT—nothing that cost us a SB or anything....

Timmy!
11-21-2014, 02:44 PM
:lol:

Runamok
11-21-2014, 03:33 PM
I believe Mr Blount is once more a Pat - the locker room cancer that he is.......idiot


"Idiot"....?


LOL, coming, as it does, from a guy who quotes Nietzsche and Chazoe60 in the same sig. I know I'm impressed. :lol:


Ray Nitschke and Chaz, possibly.

MOtorboat
11-21-2014, 04:06 PM
"Idiot"....?


LOL, coming, as it does, from a guy who quotes Nietzsche and Chazoe60 in the same sig. I know I'm impressed. :lol:


Ray Nitschke and Chaz, possibly.

Back to Runamok's regular Patriot-themed trolling...

Valar Morghulis
11-21-2014, 04:16 PM
"Idiot"....?


LOL, coming, as it does, from a guy who quotes Nietzsche and Chazoe60 in the same sig. I know I'm impressed. :lol:


Ray Nitschke and Chaz, possibly.

the idiot comment remains extant

Runamok
11-21-2014, 04:59 PM
the idiot comment remains extant

Whatever, matey.

Runamok
11-21-2014, 05:00 PM
Back to Runamok's regular Patriot-themed trolling...

Ray played for the Patriots?


I didn't know that, Mo.

dogfish
11-21-2014, 09:47 PM
It's almost as if the Broncos don't hate their OL as much as The Twin Pouters do.

yea, but the broncos clearly don't know what they're doing. . .

Slick
11-21-2014, 10:48 PM
It's almost as if the Broncos don't hate their OL as much as The Twin Pouters do.

Cugel's last two posts make more sense than anything I've read here since Sunday.

Simple Jaded
11-22-2014, 01:26 AM
Cugel's last two posts make more sense than anything I've read here since Sunday.

¿Que? El es loco ugo.

Cugel
11-22-2014, 01:19 PM
Yeah. I'm sure drafting three backup guards would have fixed all the problems...

For those wondering, the three guards Joel wanted drafted have started a combined one game. While Roby is Denver's nickel back and has played a significant role in all 10 games.

Roby is projected as Denver's #1 CB in the future and he probably will be. That was a good pick. I don't agree with Joel that drafting a C or G would help anything.

I know it's easy to forget that they drafted T Micheal Schofield who has yet to see action because he's not ready yet. It would take too long for even a 1st round draft pick to become a starter for a SB team. Time is running out on the Peyton era. So, it's hopeless to try and patch a huge gaping hole in the Titanic with a rookie draft pick at RT.

They needed to prioritize getting help for the OL in FA. I don't know that getting a guy in the first round would have been much better, except that the pressure to play your #1 draft pick is overwhelming. Note that Greg Robinson, the top OT in the draft (#2 overall) didn't start for the Rams until game 5. And nobody they could get at #31 would be remotely in his class.

Joel
11-22-2014, 03:44 PM
Roby is projected as Denver's #1 CB in the future and he probably will be. That was a good pick. I don't agree with Joel that drafting a C or G would help anything.

I know it's easy to forget that they drafted T Micheal Schofield who has yet to see action because he's not ready yet. It would take too long for even a 1st round draft pick to become a starter for a SB team. Time is running out on the Peyton era. So, it's hopeless to try and patch a huge gaping hole in the Titanic with a rookie draft pick at RT.

They needed to prioritize getting help for the OL in FA. I don't know that getting a guy in the first round would have been much better, except that the pressure to play your #1 draft pick is overwhelming. Note that Greg Robinson, the top OT in the draft (#2 overall) didn't start for the Rams until game 5. And nobody they could get at #31 would be remotely in his class.

I definitely haven't forgotten Schofield, but G=/=OT; they've ALWAYS been valued far less, and that's more true than ever in todays passing league; sure, OT Greg Robinson was drafed #2 overall last year, but who's the last GUARD drafted that highly? Even in drafts as reportedly thick with G talent as the last two, only ONE was taken in last years first round, and TWO in 2013 (to answer the trivia question, the last G picked #2 overall was Leonard Davis by the Cards in 2001.) Last year, Gabe Jackson went at the top of the THIRD round, while Yankey and Richardson lasted till the FIFTH.

It's totally different for OTs, especially in the modern passing league, hence I took it for granted that any OT who lasted till the penultimate pick of the 3rd round wasn't NFL ready: Don't expect much (if anything) from Schofield any time soon. As to whether ANY rookie can or should start for a SB contender: Maurkice Pouncey started every game of his 2010 rookie—ALL PRO—season at Pitt, and only injury kept him from starting that years AFCCG and SB. Not that there weren't plenty of good FA options last year, but there were plenty of starting quality draft picks, too: We CHOSE to decline them.

Now PFM and every other Bronco must all live with those consequences as best they can. And yes, I realize your post focused on RTs rather than Gs; again, it's a higher profile and valued position, which probably explains why we have a lot more depth (whatever its quality) at OT than at G—all the more reason to GET some G depth in a FA and draft class both LOADED with them. As bad as Franklin's been at RT, he's undeniably better than EVERYONE we've had there since; a Jackson, Yankey or Richardson would've let him stay there instead of giving us a weak LG AND RT.

Sure, Roby's a good pick—but was he the best pick FOR US? Unless we grossly overpaid and soon release Talib and/or release Harris next year because Talib's getting the money Harris earned, Roby won't be our starting #1 CB any time soon, and Webster was a pretty good pick LAST year: Which do we need more, a #3/4 CB, or #2 G? Which cost us the last SB, and threatens to keep us of the next one?

Simple Jaded
11-22-2014, 07:09 PM
And as stated earlier, the two best FA G's to ever hit open market were RG's, a position the Broncos didn't need. It's hard to blame Denver for preferring to move players that already know this system and are used to blocking for a QB that changes everything at the Los. The Broncos had bigger needs on defense and Clark/Franklin had good/excellent '13 seasons, to me the Broncos decisions made perfect sense, it just didn't work on the OL.

Slick
11-22-2014, 08:03 PM
¿Que? El es loco ugo.

His point about our line getting their ass kicked way more than our defense did is on point. Ware and Ward were good signings but were luxuries. Playoff games are always won in the trenches. I bet that's in Joel's book.

MOtorboat
11-22-2014, 08:44 PM
His point about our line getting their ass kicked way more than our defense did is on point. Ware and Ward were good signings but were luxuries. Playoff games are always won in the trenches. I bet that's in Joel's book.

A safety and another rush end weren't luxuries. The o-line didn't need changing. It needed one piece, to replace the piece that left. They screwed it up. That wasn't the only hole. A tough, solid strong safety and a rush end were also needed.

Simple Jaded
11-22-2014, 09:05 PM
His point about our line getting their ass kicked way more than our defense did is on point. Ware and Ward were good signings but were luxuries. Playoff games are always won in the trenches. I bet that's in Joel's book.

Way more?

The SB was bad on both sides of the ball, the difference is the OL only struggled in that game while the defense struggled consistently all year.

One thing I'm fairly certain of, had Denver done exactly Joel said there's still issues that half the fans would be rightfully concerned about. Had they stood pat on D we'd be talking about how the Broncos neglected the D to pacify a Manning led offense and how Denver'd never win a SB because of it.

And, imo, Joel would be front and center of that lynch mob bitching about how Manning's contract is a huge mistake to which Tim Tebow and a Top 5 defense is the only solution. Dude wants it both ways, always has.

Shazam!
11-22-2014, 09:08 PM
Say what u want about the D in the past but you must have solid OLine protection first as a priority. I think they were exposed in the SB, sadly.

Simple Jaded
11-22-2014, 09:10 PM
Say what u want about the D in the past but you must have solid OLine protection first as a priority. I think they were exposed in the SB, sadly.

But, say what you want about this OL the Broncos addressed it, they've made several moves that, in hindsight, Shoulda been left alone.

Softskull
11-22-2014, 09:30 PM
After watching the line the last few weeks, I would love to have a racist homophobe that can block.

I lived through Romanowski.