Broncos open contract negotiations with Chris Harris

[Cugel]

Clearly this is big news on the Free Agent front. After years of stating that the team doesn't do negotiations during the season, the Broncos are opening contract negotiations with CB Chris Harris, seeking to extend him to a long-term contract.


The Broncos have opened contract extension negotiations with cornerback Chris Harris, according to NFL sources.
(http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/11/8/7178873/report-broncos-open-contract-negotiations-with-chris-harris-jr)
One of the team's most pleasant surprises since the Broncos signed him to a mere $2,000 bonus as an undrafted rookie out of Kansas in 2011, Harris is eligible for unrestricted free agency after this season.

What kind of contract would it take for the Broncos to secure Harris for the long term? Based on how he's been graded by Pro Football Focus, Harris doesn't have to be shy about his asking price. Entering the Broncos' Week 10 game Sunday at Oakland, Harris has the third-best overall rating among NFL cornerbacks, behind the Indianapolis Colts' Vontae Davis and San Diego's Brandon Flowers.


This comes as a total shock to me. I have argued that the Broncos intended to let Chris Harris go at the end of the season. All the signs were pointing in that direction. Here's why.

1. The logical time to have re-signed Harris in 2013. At that point they could probably have re-negotiated his contract and given him a hefty raise, but still a LOT less than what he will command on the open market.

His 2014 salary is $2.178million. He's clearly a top 10 CB, perhaps a bit worse than Aquib Talib, but among the league leaders - so he would probably be the highest priced defensive FA in the NFL next season. He's a true #1 CB and those are rare and every team needs one.

Aquib Talib signed a 6 year, $57 million contract with $26 million guaranteed, including a $5 million bonus, so that means as a FA, Harris would almost certainly generate a contract north of $50 million, with at least $20+ million guaranteed. Say, perhaps $53 million, with $23 million guaranteed or something. It could be more than that.

2. The Broncos refused to pay Harris what he was clearly worth in 2012 and 2013 after he outplayed his contract. He wants maximum $ now, and he's going to get it. So, almost certainly no "home team discount". The Broncos screwed him basically for 2 years and now is his pay-day.

3. Having used a #1 draft pick on Reggie Roby, the team has to start him. He's looked pretty good so far as a rookie, and projects to becoming a future #1 CB at some point in the next few years. Then there's Kayvon Webster, whom they like (although I don't think he's anything special).

4. The team has failed to sign Demaryius or Julius, and those guys are going to be extremely expensive. Demaryius will get north of $13 million a year. It looks like he wants to be paid Megatron money, or something close to it -- i.e. about $14+ million a year. He would certainly get it in FA. He's a total beast as a WR, a game breaking receiver that all teams are looking for in this pass-happy NFL. He's clearly a top 5 WR along with guys like Julio Jones or Dez Bryant. He probably wants an average salary higher than Larry Fitzgerald's. Larry got:


Larry Fitzgerald signed a 7 year / $113 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including a $10,000,000 signing bonus, $27,000,000 guaranteed, and an annual average salary of $16,142,857.

However, this is misleading since nearly $45 million of this contract is in the last 3 years and he's never going to get that money (not guaranteed). In reality he's been paid 4 years, $55 million, or an average of $13.75. Demaryius should get slightly more than this - perhaps 5 years for $70 million or something, with $30 million guaranteed.

The Broncos are not going to do this. It looks more and more like they will franchise him, which they can do and he'd earn about $13 million or something. That way they don't commit to him long-term after Peyton's retirement when the team will have to re-build. But, they can only franchise 1 player.

Julius Thomas is likely to earn about $9+ million average for maybe 5 years, so perhaps $45 million? So, combined maybe $22 million between just these two players. This is speculative, but the reasoning is based on what comparable players have already gotten - which means it could be MORE, not less.

Then there's Wes Welker, Orlando Franklin, Nate Irving, Brandon Marshall and Pot Roast -- all of whom become UFAs next season. Worse, they have to try and negotiate a new contract for Von Miller who will become a FA after 2015 season. Wes is clearly gone, but they want to keep the rest.

He is the most athletic LB since Derrick Thomas and the Broncos have Zero intent to let him go. He'd get just an insane amount of money in FA so they can't let him play out his contract next season and then try to compete with other teams, nor will they want to franchise him. They want to keep him long-term.

Given all that I can't see how they can afford Chris Harris. But, clearly they mean to try and I applaud them for doing it. Chris has clearly earned his money, I'm just surprised they would contemplate doing this during the season.

Does this mean they might let either D.T. or Julius walk? I don't know.

But, clearly they can't re-sign everybody. There just isn't enough money under the cap to do that.

[Joel]

I didn't realize Talibs contract was so long; now I REALLY wish we'd re-signed DRC (whom I preferred anyway.) With Harris, Webster looking promising last year and Roby ready to start Opening Day of his rookie year, we'd have an excellent long term starting trio without Talib and need little more than quality depth for dime and injuries, $10 million/yr for 6 years eats up a lot of cap space for a long time. The Giants are paying DRC less per year for one LESS year, and probably not wondering how many games he'll be out hurt due to his style of play. Harris is my favorite Bronco though, so I hope we find a way to do this.

I just hope it doesn't cost us too many other irreplaceable players (most notably/imminently, DT, whom I'd hate to franchise and have to re-sign while finding room to pay Von Miller, too.) You're right all our moves to this point strongly suggested Harris' departure, and that it would've been cheaper to do this last year or the year before instead of just giving him a tender. Guess even Elway's not perfect. It's hard to say no to this though:
Quarterbacks have a 41.4 passer rating when targeting Harris Jr.Last week he shut down Julian Edelman (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71174/julian-edelman) and Brandon LaFell (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/108625/brandon-lafell) to the tune of 47 yards on 6 catches. He has yet to allow a touchdown on the season.
It seemed like EVERYONE caught a TD last week—but apparently NO ONE caught one while covered by Harris (although LaFell DID help our D out a few times....) Doesn't take much to figure out who WAS covering Edelman on his TDs, and it seems kind of foolish to pay that 28-year-old $10 million/yr for 6 seasons while letting a better 25-year-old walk.

[VonDoom]

I didn't realize Talibs contract was so long; now I REALLY wish we'd re-signed DRC (whom I preferred anyway.)

What? The way Talib's contract is structured (and most contracts nowadays, to be honest), we can cut him after THIS SEASON and have only $4 million in dead money. That number decreases by $1 million every year. I'm not saying we'd do that now, obviously, but we're not locked into anything long term with him. Conversely, if the Giants cut DRC after this year, they have a $9.25 million dead money cap hit. Elway knows what he's doing.

I'm also surprised people are surprised by us wanting to bring back Harris. Maybe the timing is a little odd, but did you really think we'd let him walk without at least attempting to get him to stay? This isn't Decker or Moreno. The Broncos know his value, and obviously want him long term.

[Joel]

What? The way Talib's contract is structured (and most contracts nowadays, to be honest), we can cut him after THIS SEASON and have only $4 million in dead money. That number decreases by $1 million every year. I'm not saying we'd do that now, obviously, but we're not locked into anything long term with him. Conversely, if the Giants cut DRC after this year, they have a $9.25 million dead money cap hit. Elway knows what he's doing.
Ah, OK, I feel better then; Elway does know what he's doing (except on the line. :tongue:) I really can't make sense of what Rotoworld says about his contract: It says $26 million's guaranteed by a $5 million signing bonus plus a $2 million roster bonus this year, but even with the $4.5 million base for this year that only comes to $11½ million—where's the other $14 million and change...?

If we can cut him after a year or two for a marginal cap hit though, that would be more than fine with me unless something happens to Harris, Roby or Webster. He turns 29 right around this years SB, and playing physically at a speed position he's likely to go downhill fast after 30 (he's had more than his share of injuries already.)


I'm also surprised people are surprised by us wanting to bring back Harris. Maybe the timing is a little odd, but did you really think we'd let him walk without at least attempting to get him to stay? This isn't Decker or Moreno. The Broncos know his value, and obviously want him long term.
Wanting and doing what it takes are two different things though, and it sure seemed like we were setting up to have Talib, Roby and Webster long term. Nothing short of a SB would please me better than locking up Harris as our shutdown CB for the next half dozen years though.

[Cugel]

Here's a breakdown of Talib's contract:



Aqib Talib
Cornerback
6 years
28 years old
Drafted: Round 1 (#20 overall), 2008
College: Kansas
Broncos:
Current Salary Information

Aqib Talib signed a 6 year / $57 million contract with the Denver Broncos, including a $5,000,000 signing bonus, $25,500,000 guaranteed, and an annual average salary of $9,500,000.
Contract: 6 yr(s) / $57,000,000 Signing Bonus $5,000,000 Average Salary $9,500,000 Guaranteed: $25,500,000 Free Agent: 2020 / Unrestricted
Year Base Signing Bonus Roster Bonus Option Bonus Workout Bonus Restruc. Bonus Incentive Cap Hit Dead

2014 4,500,000 1,000,000 2,406,250 - - - - 7,906,250 11,500,000
2015 5,500,000 1,000,000 500,000 - - - - 7,000,000 4,000,000
2016 8,500,000 1,000,000 500,000 - - - - 10,000,000 3,000,000
2017 11,000,000 1,000,000 - - - - - 12,000,000 2,000,000
2018 11,000,000 1,000,000 - - - - - 12,000,000 1,000,000
2019 8,000,000 - - - - - - 8,000,000 -
2020 UFA

The key numbers are the dead cap space: $11,500,000 this year, $4,000,000 next, $3,000,000 in 2016.

They could cut him in 2016, but as long as he plays well there's zero chance they will. They would still wind up paying him $25,500,000 in guarantees, so they need to just suck it up and hope he continues to play well. I wouldn't bet on his ever getting that $11,000,000 base salary in 2017 though.

[Cugel]

I'm also surprised people are surprised by us wanting to bring back Harris. Maybe the timing is a little odd, but did you really think we'd let him walk without at least attempting to get him to stay? This isn't Decker or Moreno. The Broncos know his value, and obviously want him long term.

I'm not surprised because Harris is no good. I'm surprised because they not only signed Talib, they just used their #1 draft pick to grab Robie. You simply do NOT use a #1 pick on a player unless you project him to be a future starter and hopefully a pro-bowler. Robie has lived generally up to expectations and they are happy with him.

What do they plan on doing? Keep Robie as the #3 CB for the next 4 years?

And if they give Chris Harris his money, what does that mean for Julius and Demaryius Thomas? They can't afford to lose them because they could not be replaced (at least not during Peyton's remaining time).

And, while they obviously aren't keeping Welker, they can't afford to lose Pot Roast either. He's their best interior DL and he's only 28.

The number of FAs they've got next season is amazing. It's half the team!

2015 FAs: D.T., Welker, Jacob Tamme, Rahim Moore, Julius Thomas, Pot-Roast, Orlando Franklin, Nate Irving, Quinton Carter, Virgil Green, Steven Johnson, Aaron Brewer, Mitch Unrein, Will Montgomery, Tony Carter, Brandon Marshall, Ben Garland, Paul Cornick, etc.

You have to wonder how many of these guys are back. For instance, the Broncos probably want to keep Virgil Green, but not if his salary goes significantly up from it's current
$524,000 per year. And do they want even more shakeup on the OL by having to replace Orlando Franklin? Yet, he's going to command significantly more than his current $1.1 million a year (remember that Zane friggin' Beadles got


Zane Beadles signed a 5 year / $30 million contract with the Jacksonville Jaguars, including $12,450,000 guaranteed, and an annual average salary of $6,000,000.

True, Jacksonville isn't all that smart. But, there's no way that Franklin is getting less than $4,000,000 a year from somebody. He's flat out going to get offers that everybody on these boards will denounce as "too much." He's only 26 years old and it happens every year.

Same thing is true of Rahim Moore. Same goes for Nate Irving and Quinton Carter. And Will Montgomery? Do they want him back at 32? If not, they need to go out and find a center. They don't have time to draft and develop one either, not before Peyton retires.

And the immense looming shadow of the Von Miller contract still hangs over this off-season.

[VonDoom]

I'm not surprised because Harris is no good. I'm surprised because they not only signed Talib, they just used their #1 draft pick to grab Robie. You simply do NOT use a #1 pick on a player unless you project him to be a future starter and hopefully a pro-bowler. Robie has lived generally up to expectations and they are happy with him.

Fair point. I hadn't thought of it that way. We still don't know if they can actually re-sign Harris, but if they do, they'll be paying two top CB's at the same time. In that case, Talib is probably the more expendable after another year or two. Nice problem to have, though.

[VonDoom]

Ah, OK, I feel better then; Elway does know what he's doing (except on the line. :tongue:) I really can't make sense of what Rotoworld says about his contract: It says $26 million's guaranteed by a $5 million signing bonus plus a $2 million roster bonus this year, but even with the $4.5 million base for this year that only comes to $11½ million—where's the other $14 million and change...

I use OvertheCap as my go-to salary cap website (I believe Cugel's numbers are taken from their site). A lot of five year deals in the NFL now are, as IAOFM likes to say, just a series of one year deals with a team option every year. That's basically how Talib's is structured.

Also, you mentioned Webster in this thread. I know the coaches say he's improved greatly, but we haven't had much of a chance to see that on the field yet. I just don't know if we can count on him to be a big time player and to replace Talib's production at this point. Plus, you can never have too many quality CB's, right?

[Cugel]

Fair point. I hadn't thought of it that way. We still don't know if they can actually re-sign Harris, but if they do, they'll be paying two top CB's at the same time. In that case, Talib is probably the more expendable after another year or two. Nice problem to have, though.

The Broncos will have to evaluate whether Talib is worth his salary over the next 2 seasons. They've already locked into his salary. True they could dump him after 1 year, but the cap hit is prohibitive. Far more likely after 2 seasons unless they conclude he's just not doing his job, and he's generally played pretty well this year. He's not a lockdown CB like Champ in his day or Deion Sanders. But, he's very good.

[Ravage!!!]

Its a necessity to have 3 good corners in the NFL.

As far as the preference to resign DRC... I believe he's the one that refused the contract offered, which was the same offered to Talib. Not like we didn't try to resign him.

[Cugel]

Its a necessity to have 3 good corners in the NFL.

As far as the preference to resign DRC... I believe he's the one that refused the contract offered, which was the same offered to Talib. Not like we didn't try to resign him.

You're right about needing 3 starting quality CBs in the NFL today. The question is simply "which 3"? The assumption from the drafting of Bradley Roby was that they'd go with him and Talib as the starters and Kayvon Webster as the nickel back in 2015.

That may still happen. But, right now, Chris Harris looks like their best CB - better and more consistent than Talib.

The way he's playing, I would even prefer to keep him over Julius Thomas. Julius seems like he can never learn to block, so they will need to use him essentially as a big WR. He's useless in the run game because he just can't be relied upon to move a guy in front of him. He's an awesome pass-receiver though, so they would like to keep him.

It's just a question of "who do we give $10 million a year to"? Julius Thomas or Chris Harris. I'd vote for Chris Harris right now.

But, these negotiations could wind up going nowhere and they let him become a FA at the end of the year and say "we tried to re-sign him, but he wanted too much money."

I'd say it's 50-50 that still happens.

[SR]

Its a necessity to have 3 good corners in the NFL. As far as the preference to resign DRC... I believe he's the one that refused the contract offered, which was the same offered to Talib. Not like we didn't try to resign him.

It wasn't the same contract at all

[VonDoom]

It wasn't the same contract at all

It was very, very similar:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2014/03/14/blaming-drc-understand-facts/26687/


I have confirmed a Pro Football Talk report that before the Broncos signed Aqib Talib to a six-year, $57 million contract, they offered their own Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie a six-year $54 million deal.

--------------------------------

So Rodgers-Cromartie would have made $16 million after two years. And then it would have been $24 million over three years.

That’s the deal Rodgers-Cromartie turned down. The other $30 million over the final three years was essentially fluff.

Talib and strong safety T.J. Ward didn’t have a problem with the Broncos’ structure. Talib’s six-year, $57 million contract is really one year and $12 million, two years and $18 million and three years and $27 million. His final three years and $30 million are fluff.

[DenBronx]

This is why you sign guys that you know are going to be good early.

[DenBronx]

I still think it's going to be hard to keep Chris Harris. Mainly bc Roby seems to be playing very well this year but Harris IS our best DB....been saying that for years. Just doesnt have a big name like Bailey, Sherman or Revis but he's been playing at a high level and rarely gives up anything. Plus he's a tackling machine and is always near the ball.

[Ravage!!!]

You're right about needing 3 starting quality CBs in the NFL today. The question is simply "which 3"? The assumption from the drafting of Bradley Roby was that they'd go with him and Talib as the starters and Kayvon Webster as the nickel back in 2015.

That may still happen. But, right now, Chris Harris looks like their best CB - better and more consistent than Talib.

The way he's playing, I would even prefer to keep him over Julius Thomas. Julius seems like he can never learn to block, so they will need to use him essentially as a big WR. He's useless in the run game because he just can't be relied upon to move a guy in front of him. He's an awesome pass-receiver though, so they would like to keep him.

It's just a question of "who do we give $10 million a year to"? Julius Thomas or Chris Harris. I'd vote for Chris Harris right now.

But, these negotiations could wind up going nowhere and they let him become a FA at the end of the year and say "we tried to re-sign him, but he wanted too much money."

I'd say it's 50-50 that still happens.

I could care less about JT's blocking "issues" that fans seem to exaggerate. Give me that weapon as a receiver in a passing league, any day.

[Ravage!!!]

I still think it's going to be hard to keep Chris Harris. Mainly bc Roby seems to be playing very well this year but Harris IS our best DB....been saying that for years. Just doesnt have a big name like Bailey, Sherman or Revis but he's been playing at a high level and rarely gives up anything. Plus he's a tackling machine and is always near the ball.

I think Harris is a priority hence why starting talks now. I wouldn't be shocked to see its a Harris/Roby combination next season.

[Joel]

You're right about needing 3 starting quality CBs in the NFL today. The question is simply "which 3"? The assumption from the drafting of Bradley Roby was that they'd go with him and Talib as the starters and Kayvon Webster as the nickel back in 2015.

That may still happen. But, right now, Chris Harris looks like their best CB - better and more consistent than Talib.
Considerably younger, too. He's less likely to give up a TD going for a pick-six, which may not please fantasy football owners, but is better for REAL owners like Mr. Bowlen. In just a couple years, Talib will be >30 at a speed position where his physical play's already caused him lots of injuries: Harris, Webster and Roby will all be in their mid-twenties. I also see Harris routinely do things he picked up from Champ (who picked up plenty from Darrell "The Ageless Wonder" Green,) so he could have another DECADE left, and things to pass on to Webster, Roby and whoever comes next.


The way he's playing, I would even prefer to keep him over Julius Thomas. Julius seems like he can never learn to block, so they will need to use him essentially as a big WR. He's useless in the run game because he just can't be relied upon to move a guy in front of him. He's an awesome pass-receiver though, so they would like to keep him.
Orange Julius does ONE thing very well and everything else badly; Harris does EVERYTHING well. He's smothering in coverage, and the few times his man DOES make a catch, he doesn't get far, because Harris is a quick and sure tackler, skills he brings to the run game just as promptly and reliably. Julius Thomas, OTOH, is just a really big WR; we've already GOT a big fast Thomas at WR—and he run blocks better than the supposed TE. Fans aren't the only ones taking Orange Julius to task for that; PFM's been caught chewing him out on camera during games as they trotted off the field after he blew a 3rd down block.


It's just a question of "who do we give $10 million a year to"? Julius Thomas or Chris Harris. I'd vote for Chris Harris right now.
That's a no-brainer in my book: Harris is the kind of quietly excellent, versatile and selfless player defenses are built around, while Thomas is a one-trick pony in a league increasingly filled with "tight ends" who do the same trick just as well but block far better. There are plenty of Vernon Davises, Rob Gronkowskis and Antonio Gates out there who are more than just overgrown slot WRs; there are precious few Compleat CBs like Harris who play the slot and outside with equal excellence, surrender practically NO yards after their few catches and come up to play run support.

[Joel]

I use OvertheCap as my go-to salary cap website (I believe Cugel's numbers are taken from their site). A lot of five year deals in the NFL now are, as IAOFM likes to say, just a series of one year deals with a team option every year. That's basically how Talib's is structured.
Noted, with thanks.


Also, you mentioned Webster in this thread. I know the coaches say he's improved greatly, but we haven't had much of a chance to see that on the field yet. I just don't know if we can count on him to be a big time player and to replace Talib's production at this point. Plus, you can never have too many quality CB's, right?
Webster was pretty good last year; he showed all the necessary speed and athleticism, but the inexperience typical of rookies. Right now, I think it's just a case of Harris, Talib and Roby being TOO good to let Webster on the field; apart from the coaches and that one BSN article claiming he's much improved, there's only a little dime and relief performance to support that.

You CAN have too many quality CBs, but the limit's pretty high; I put it around 4-5: Three starters for nickel (practically the base D for us and many teams now) and a 4th to cover injuries/exhaustion in those starters, plus join them in dime. Ideally, I want a 5th good enough to avoid being designated target in dime packages if one of the first 4's hurt/tired.


I think Harris is a priority hence why starting talks now. I wouldn't be shocked to see its a Harris/Roby combination next season.
It's worth nothing Roby played the slot some earlier this year, supposedly at his request on the grounds he wanted new challenges; Harris/Webster with Roby in the slot's not out of the question, and there's a clear odd man out in that scenario (Hint: The highly-paid injury-prone CB who turns 29 in February.) In terms of "win from now on," re-signing Harris MUST be a priority matched by none but DT.

[DenBronx]

I still think it's going to be hard to keep Chris Harris. Mainly bc Roby seems to be playing very well this year but Harris IS our best DB....been saying that for years. Just doesnt have a big name like Bailey, Sherman or Revis but he's been playing at a high level and rarely gives up anything. Plus he's a tackling machine and is always near the ball.

I think Harris is a priority hence why starting talks now. I wouldn't be shocked to see its a Harris/Roby combination next season.



If given the choice between Talib and Harris im picking Harris all day everyday. But I won't complain if we keep both. Not sure what Talibs contract guarantees are but he's also playing very well. Just think Harris is a better long term option for us.

But who's going to be the odd man out then? Maybe backload Harris contract so when Manning retires it wont be as bad??? Who am I kidding....Mannings going to play another 10 years. Lol

[Joel]

I wouldn't be surprised if Orange Julius is the odd man out in terms of re-signing; Harris just brings more to the table, and Manning's never chewed him out on the way to the sideline because Harris blew a block on 3rd down, nor thrown an Int against his old team because Harris whiffed a blitzer. Big fast shooting guards just aren't the NFL rarity they were when Gates and Gonzalez were rookies. I keep asking myself whom I'd pick given a choice between Patrick Peterson and Vernon Davis, and keep unhesitatingly coming up with the same answer—and Davis CAN block!

If it's unclear, here's a SB Nation article about CJ Andersons breakout game in Oakland, that teases two others by the same author: One discussing how Peterson can change a game and the other asking where Davis went (the article about Andersons achievements with a bit about Franklins utter uselessness against anyone with ANY agility is just a bonus.) http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/11/13/7204979/cj-anderson-denver-broncos-offense

[Slick]

If Denver can only keep 2 of the 3 guys that stand to garner the biggest contracts -- D Thomas, J Thomas and Chris Harris?

Give me D Thomas and Harris. I doubt either of the three are giving a hometown discount.

[Simple Jaded]

I could care less about JT's blocking "issues" that fans seem to exaggerate. Give me that weapon as a receiver in a passing league, any day.

But given the choice would you take DT, JT and lose Harris over DT, Harris and another 2011-12 TE-by committee approach (Assuming those TE's aren't a completely indifferent liabilty in the blocking aspect of the position)?

[Simple Jaded]

It's conceivable that the Broncos could go into next season with a combination of Gresham as a starter, Housler or Tamme with Virgil Green as veteran backups and a 3rd-4th round prospect like Jeff Heuerman for less money than JT. They're never gonna be the threat JT poses, I get that.

[MOtorboat]

Cap will be $140 mil. All three will sign.

[Simple Jaded]

Cap will be $140 mil. All three will sign.

I think there's more room to be had by cutting Bruton and Caldwell, according to Spotrac there's $600 dead weight and just over $2 mil savings between the two of them. Might be time to make some other more difficult decisions on Ramirez and Clark too.

[DenBronx]

Cut Bruton? Yeah makes sense. He has a very low salary, insurance for both satey positions and is the Special Teams captain. Sounds like a great idea....

[Simple Jaded]

Cut Bruton? Yeah makes sense. He has a very low salary, insurance for both satey positions and is the Special Teams captain. Sounds like a great idea....

He's absolutely replacable, the Broncos weren't desperately patient with Quintin Carter because they're so comfortable with Bruton. He's a special teamer and he's a captain on one of the worst ST's in the league.

[DenBronx]

Cut Bruton? Yeah makes sense. He has a very low salary, insurance for both satey positions and is the Special Teams captain. Sounds like a great idea....

He's absolutely replacable, the Broncos weren't desperately patient with Quintin Carter because they're so comfortable with Bruton. He's a special teamer and he's a captain on one of the worst ST's in the league.

And probably the only guy that makes plays on STs. Yeah total sense here.

[Simple Jaded]

Broncos are paying Bruton and Colquitt well for being just average assets.

[Simple Jaded]

And probably the only guy that makes plays on STs. Yeah total sense here.

Utterly, completely and in every other way, replaceable. Just a guy.

[DenBronx]

And probably the only guy that makes plays on STs. Yeah total sense here.

Utterly, completely and in every other way, replaceable. Just a guy.


Hahahahahaha


Sez the guy with Caldwell in his offseason wishlist. Release that bum 1st before looking at captains.

[Simple Jaded]

I think there's more room to be had by cutting Bruton and Caldwell, according to Spotrac there's $600 dead weight and just over $2 mil savings between the two of them. Might be time to make some other more difficult decisions on Ramirez and Clark too.

Um, I did include that bum.

[Simple Jaded]

I was wrong about Jared Allen too, Byrd is out for the season, doesn't mean Bruton isn't a JAG.

[DenBronx]

I was wrong about Jared Allen too, Byrd is out for the season, doesn't mean Bruton isn't a JAG.

Your views on problems on this team are drastically focused in the wrong areas and wrong players.

[Simple Jaded]

Your views on problems on this team are drastically focused in the wrong areas and wrong players.

I'd agree if I thought Bruton and Caldwell were costing Denver games, I never implied that, I'm just saying there are more important players to fit under the cap than these 2 stiffs.

[Simple Jaded]

Den, you love you some Harris, I've seen you say it many times. Imagine losing him in FA when they could clear another couple Mil to lock him up?

[DenBronx]

Den, you love you some Harris, I've seen you say it many times. Imagine losing him in FA when they could clear another couple Mil to lock him up?

Ok...you have a point if it meant losing Harris. I just dont see the big deal with your case on Bruton though. Dude makes beans and constantly makes plays on ST.

[Simple Jaded]

Ok...you have a point if it meant losing Harris. I just dont see the big deal with your case on Bruton though. Dude makes beans and constantly makes plays on ST.

Fair enough, cap space decisions could just boil down to varying degrees of hard decisions.

[Cugel]

I could care less about JT's blocking "issues" that fans seem to exaggerate. Give me that weapon as a receiver in a passing league, any day.

Still think this after the utter failure to run in the Rams game? Biggest failure is the OL failure to block anybody in the run game. That includes the TEs. Virgil Green is also a FA.

[Cugel]

If given the choice between Talib and Harris im picking Harris all day everyday. But I won't complain if we keep both. Not sure what Talibs contract guarantees are but he's also playing very well. Just think Harris is a better long term option for us.

But who's going to be the odd man out then? Maybe backload Harris contract so when Manning retires it wont be as bad??? Who am I kidding....Mannings going to play another 10 years. Lol

Look, they are paying Talib $26 million in guarantees. They are NOT cutting him after 1 season. Not happening.


3/11/2014: Signed a six-year, $57 million contract. The deal contains $26 million guaranteed, including a $5 million signing bonus and first-year roster bonus of $2 million. Another $1.5 million is available through playing-time incentives. 2014: $4.5 million (+ $500,000 in per-game roster bonuses), 2015: $5.5 million (+ $500,000 in per-game roster bonuses), 2016: $8.5 million (+ $500,000 in per-game roster bonuses), 2017-2018: $11 million, 2019: $8 million, 2020: Free Agent

My guess is that we aren't hearing anything further about this because the Broncos are not making much progress with Chris Harris. They waited too long.

It's like promising to reform WHILE the wife is walking out the door with her packed bags. You waited too damn late!

Chris is going to get Talib money this off-season. Why should he sign for less than $25 million in guarantees at this point in the season when he'll get it in 4 months? Elway screwed this up and now its blowing up in his face.

Well, maybe they sacrifice Julius Thomas and give Harris J.T.'s money, but it's going to take more than that. He's not getting more than $9 million if they re-sign him, and to keep Chris Harris is going to cost more like $13 million next year.

After getting screwed his entire career, Harris is not giving the Broncos 1 penny discount either. "Show me the money!"

[Cugel]

Another FA who will NOT be making the team is Chris Clark. He's scheduled to make $1.4 million in 2015, but will be cut after the season. Right now, they're desperate at RT and yet Clark is the "donut spare tire" you hope you never have to use. He's for emergency use only, and you can't drive more than 30 mph with him in there.

But, they'll need his money to sign some FA OL because that's what's keeping this team from competing for a SB this season. And Peyton's not getting any younger out there.

As we saw in the last game, the difference between Peyton playing well and Peyton having a horrible day is DL getting in Peyton's face.

[VonDoom]

Look, they are paying Talib $26 million in guarantees. They are NOT cutting him after 1 season. Not happening.



My guess is that we aren't hearing anything further about this because the Broncos are not making much progress with Chris Harris. They waited too long.

We've been through this - Talib is only getting $11.5 million guaranteed, most of which came this year.


CB Aqib Talib signed a six year, $57 million contract with the Denver Broncos on March 12, 2014. Talib received $11.5 million in fully guaranteed salary. The full guarantee is made up of a $5 million signing bonus, $2 million 2014 roster bonus, and $4.5 million 2014 base salary. His 2015 and 2016 base salaries are both guaranteed for injury only and will become fully guaranteed if he is on the roster on the 3rd day of that respective league year. He has $500,000 roster bonuses paid for games active in the first three years of the contract. Base salaries are $4,500,000(2014), $5,500,000(2015), $8,500,000(2016), $11,000,000(2017), $11,000,000(2018), and $8,000,000(2019).

Source: http://overthecap.com/player/aqib-talib/1624/

We're only $4 million in the hole if we cut him, which again, I don't advocate doing, but is an option.

I also don't think we can say that they "waited too long" with Harris. You might as well say the same about DT and JT. Most of the negotiations will happen in the offseason, especially when we find out how high the cap is going. Players and their agents aren't stupid - if they sign deals now, they'll probably get less money than they would get this coming offseason.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The only guy we "waited too long" to sign is DT. DT is a beast and has played well no matter who threw him the ball. I understand Elway being more cautious with JT and Harris. JT only had one healthy, productive season due to his first 2 years being out with injuries so this was his "okay, do that again" year to prove he was worth the scratch. Harris is coming off an ACL and if he couldn't prove he was the same dude, why throw a ton of money at him? Yeah, had we taken a big leap of faith and re-signed Harris at the beginning of the year, then we probably could've gotten him cheaper but it was a big risk. Not re-signing any of the three was honestly what allowed us to afford to sign Sanders, Ware, Ward, and Talib.

I trust Elway to make the right decisions. He really hasn't let me down yet. After the Superbowl everyone thought that we probably wouldn't have the cap space to sign many big FAs. Elway got 4 for essentially the price of Decker, Woodyard, and Phillips.

[Cugel]

We've been through this - Talib is only getting $11.5 million guaranteed, most of which came this year.


Source: http://overthecap.com/player/aqib-talib/1624/

We're only $4 million in the hole if we cut him, which again, I don't advocate doing, but is an option.

I also don't think we can say that they "waited too long" with Harris. You might as well say the same about DT and JT. Most of the negotiations will happen in the offseason, especially when we find out how high the cap is going. Players and their agents aren't stupid - if they sign deals now, they'll probably get less money than they would get this coming offseason.

They are not cutting Talib after 1 season. No point in discussing it. They've got a lot bigger problems than worrying about getting another CB. Their OL is just horrible and needs a total make-over.

And then there's the nightmare of trying to re-sign Von Miller before his contract expires after 2015. They need to re-sign him this off-season, because he's going to get a just an insane amount as a FA.

This leads to the second point. It's cheaper to re-sign players BEFORE their last season because it avoids the risk of injury. The player gets less money, but it's locked in before a possible season ending injury which could destroy his negotiating leverage entering FA.

Remember "Show me the money!"? Tom Cruise can't work out a deal and his client has to play out his contract and there's that scene where it looks like he's been hurt, then gets up and is alright, and at the end of the season he's getting that big contract?

That's the situation in a nut-shell. It's always cheaper to sign them early, but then you take the risk of injury like with Ryan Clady. They resigned him to that $57 million contract, then he got hurt in game #2 and hasn't been the same since. That's the risk you take. Think he isn't glad he has that $33 million guaranteed contract?

The player signs for less money because: #1 he gets an immediate signing bonus now instead of waiting and #2 the player runs the risk of screwing himself out of millions if he gets hurt during the season entering FA.

What would Chris Harris's bargaining position have been if he'd been an UFA this off-season after the 2013 season ending knee surgery? Now compare it to now when he's All-Pro entering contract negotiations?

[Cugel]

UPDATE: Well, apparently Chris Harris wants too much money and the negotiations with the Broncos "have stalled" according to ESPN reports:


Late last night ESPN's Josina Anderson reported that an NFL source has told her that contract talks between the Denver Broncos and cornerback Chris Harris Jr. have "stalled a bit". (http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/11/20/7252889/horse-tracks-chris-harriss-contract-talks-hit-a-snag)

There was apparently an offer by the Broncos, and a counter-offer by Harris' agent, and no further talks by the Broncos. That indicates they weren't happy with the counter and negotiations are currently stalled until the end of the season when Harris will be a FA along with D.T., Julius Thomas, Franklin, Rahim Moore, Virgil Green, Nate Irving, etc., etc. About 1/2 the team will be FAs.

So, this doesn't look good. There's still a chance the Broncos will negotiate a new deal with Harris after the season, but it will cost them a HUGE fortune. He'll be among, if not the top FA CB available and you can bet that teams will be trying to lure him away from the Broncos with a GINORMOUS contract, and deliberately trying to prevent the Broncos from keeping him.

Same thing with D.T. and Julius Thomas.

So, there's some hope, but this basically was fairly predictable, that the team waited far too long to negotiate with Harris. He has very little incentive to sign a deal now for less than what Talib got - $57 million and $26 million guaranteed. It will take at least that to keep Chris Harris.

[DenBronx]

I like me some Chris Harris but not at the cost of losing DT or JT. We MUST keep our guys on offense so when Manning retires our new QB can hit the ground running.

Someone posted that contract negotiations have stalled. This is what happens when you wait too late to sign good players. You end up paying a premium when you could have got a discount last year and been prepared long term. Now it looks like Harris is going to play out the year and if he plays bad, which I doubt will happen, then he might not get Talib money after all. The balls in his court now, not Elways, because if we don't sign him then some lucky team will pay it.

If you want to follow Harris then here is his website: http://chrisharrisjr.com/

[Joel]

To be fair, it SHOULD: Harris is more versatile and reliable than Talib, plus 4 years younger. Not to mention he's flat out PLAYING BETTER right now.

You're right we should've taken care of this sooner, but it was hard to do that AND sign multiple FA Pro Bowlers annually because the first ballot HoFer under center's pushing 40. Win from Now on's a nice theory, but just not feasible in the modern NFL: Reality forces teams to prioritize and make choices.

I can't blame Harris a bit; we could've given him more than a tender offer last year, and he knows his ACL could rip again tomorrow (heaven forbid) plus he'll be 30 before the end of whatever deal he signs now: This is one and only time to cash in, and he needs to take full advantage of it. Any agent who tells him otherwise isn't doing his job.

[Joel]

I like me some Chris Harris but not at the cost of losing DT or JT. We MUST keep our guys on offense so when Manning retires our new QB can hit the ground running.
Great receiving TEs who can't block the sun out of their eyes aren't such a rare or indispensable commodity Orange Julius is irreplaceable: Compleat CBs who cover, tackle and play run support both on the outside and in the slot ARE that rare. It's increasingly clear the Post-Manning Broncos will be about the Orange Crush rather than the offense, and a 25-year-old total package like Harris is the kind of guy those defenses are built around, same as Von Miller. Absent Manning, there's not much to be excited about on offense; basically DT, Sanders and a former All Pro LT with an oft-injured left leg pushing 30.

Ask yourself how last Sundays final looks if our D doesn't hold that 3-6 team to FGs or nothing on every drive except the one where we gave them the ball inside our 20. Keep the do-it-all WR and CB, dump the one-trick pony TE. Demaryius Thomas is a better WR AND TE than Julius Thomas, who's not Gronk, or Vernon Davis, or Jason Witten: Those guys lay people OUT on runs. Ex-shooting guard TEs are increasingly common in the NFL; we can find another, and he'll probably block and run routes better than a guy who's still learning the game after just a year each of college and pro ball.

[Simple Jaded]

Maybe the Broncos couldn't sign Harris sooner because they tried that discount last year, or because he was coming off an ACL.