OL changes this week?

[VonDoom]

Seems like Cornick is hurting this week:


Jeff Legwold ‏@Jeff_Legwold 48m48 minutes ago

For #Broncos RT Paul Cornick did not participate in practice (shoulder), had taken part on limited basis Wednesday.

So I would have assumed Clark just goes back in. Then I saw this:


Brandon Krisztal @BKDenverSports · 17m 17 minutes ago

I expect to see a big shakeup on the #Broncos O-Line this week with Louis Vasquez moving to RT, Manny Ramirez to RG & Will Montgomery to C

Is this guy just talking out of his ass or does he have any insider information? None of the other beat writers mentioned anything like this.

[WARHORSE]

All I gotta say is ​AMEN.

[WARHORSE]

I HEARD VASQUEZ TO RT, MONTGOMERY TO C AND RAMIREZ TO RG.


ILL TAKE IT.

Lets roll with it and if we gotta make more adjustments, then so be it.


Im even open to Ryan Clark at LT and Clady at RT if it works.

[underrated29]

Seems like Cornick is hurting this week:



So I would have assumed Clark just goes back in. Then I saw this:



Is this guy just talking out of his ass or does he have any insider information? None of the other beat writers mentioned anything like this.








BULLSHIT!!!!


I have it on authority from most everyone here that our OL is actually really good. Really fine! Best ever!


(That said, I do not believe it for a second that we would put vasquez at RT- so I think this tweet or whatever is actually bullshit- he sucked last year vs indy at RT)

[Timmy!]

Please no Vasquez at rt.

[SR]

I don't want Manny at RG again.

[BroncoWave]

I don't want Manny at RG again.

Yeah, he was like historically bad there. Unfortunately, though, it seems like we only have 3 starting quality NFL linemen, so we're gonna have holes somewhere. The Raiders wouldn't be a bad team to experiment with something new against.

[underrated29]

I would personally do something like:

Clady/cornick or clark/ Montgommery or paradis ( I like paradis)/ Vasquez/ Franklin



ideally: Clady/Cornick/Montgomery/Vasquez/Franklin

[VonDoom]

I would personally do something like:

Clady/cornick or clark/ Montgommery or paradis ( I like paradis)/ Vasquez/ Franklin



ideally: Clady/Cornick/Montgomery/Vasquez/Franklin

Ramirez has been terrible this year, so I like the idea of benching him entirely, putting in Montgomery and shifting around as they see fit. If this guy is correct, moving Ramirez to RG isn't going to do much, since he wasn't any good there before he was a surprisingly good C last year. Now even that's out the window.

[underrated29]

Ramirez has been terrible this year, so I like the idea of benching him entirely, putting in Montgomery and shifting around as they see fit. If this guy is correct, moving Ramirez to RG isn't going to do much, since he wasn't any good there before he was a surprisingly good C last year. Now even that's out the window.



Its weird isnt it. I LOVED ManRam last year. He was Bossing!!!! Now, he may be the worst C in the entire league. I do not know what happened. How he could drop off that severely. And yes, we all already know how bad he is at RG.

Im not thrilled with the idea of montgomery, tbh. But he cant play worse then ManRam has. I really like Paradis and would hope we give him a shot. But he is a rookie and young and most likely needs lots of developing in the mental and Physical side of things. The coaches know best.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi · 4m

Sounds like the Broncos o-line is catching heat this week.

Vic Lombardi retweeted
Mark Haas @markhaastv · 7m

Adam Gase said front 5 need to "man up" and not let #broncos RBs get hit in backfield any more.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mark Haas @markhaastv · 39m

.@MrKnighton2u says @johnelway talked to #broncos this week after loss. Elway talked about positives and negatives of season so far.

[underrated29]

Adam Gase said front 5 need to "man up" and not let #broncos RBs get hit in backfield any more.



God, if only someone had said that before! I swear I have seen two posters say this repeatedly while all others say Neigh.

[BroncoJoe]

I think we should all pause and kneel before the all knowing UR.

My biggest point of contention through all these discussions has been Hillman is better than Ball. I think that's been pretty well proven, regardless of the OL.

[underrated29]

I think we should all pause and kneel before the all knowing UR.

My biggest point of contention through all these discussions has been Hillman is better than Ball. I think that's been pretty well proven, regardless of the OL.





I was thinking of making a "come one, come all, come kiss Joels Ass" Thread. That poor bastage deserves a severe ass kissing after all the hell people give him. As for me......you never know what I will do. Cant be too predictable, ya know. ;)

[VonDoom]

Its weird isnt it. I LOVED ManRam last year. He was Bossing!!!! Now, he may be the worst C in the entire league. I do not know what happened. How he could drop off that severely. And yes, we all already know how bad he is at RG.

Im not thrilled with the idea of montgomery, tbh. But he cant play worse then ManRam has. I really like Paradis and would hope we give him a shot. But he is a rookie and young and most likely needs lots of developing in the mental and Physical side of things. The coaches know best.

I have no idea if Montgomery is any good at this point, but he's worth a shot. Paradis isn't even on the active roster right now, right?

[underrated29]

I have no idea if Montgomery is any good at this point, but he's worth a shot. Paradis isn't even on the active roster right now, right?



Yup- he is worth a shot, I agree.
I do not know about Matt. I watched a sound effects thing or something and Peyton thanked Matt. He was in street clothes but on the sidelines. He was a big white guy and I do not know any other guys named Matt on our team. Last I remember, he did not make roster and was practice squad C. But perhaps that was my wishful thinking.

[broken12]

I know it's off topic, does anyone know the mods at orange mane I would like to post there but cannot....same username broken12

[SR]

Personally I say leave the O-Line alone. Find something that works at RT and rely on Peyton to get rid of the ball quickly which is his MO. Peyton still gets hurried and sacked much less than most other QBs and I don't think screwing with the line as far as shuffling bodies in week nine is prudent.

[Northman]

I know it's off topic, does anyone know the mods at orange mane I would like to post there but cannot....same username broken12

Its been a LONG while since ive been over there but at the time Midnight Blue was a mod and of course the owner Taco John. If all else fails try to get in touch with Kaylore, maybe he can help.

[Bronco9798]

I looked at this thread and thought it said "Oil Change this week." Then I peeked in here and saw what it was. Was kind of confused. :-)

[PatriotsGuy]

I looked at this thread and thought it said "Oil Change this week." Then I peeked in here and saw what it was. Was kind of confused. :-)

It might be a sign. When was the last time you changed your oil?

[Dzone]

I know it's off topic, does anyone know the mods at orange mane I would like to post there but cannot....same username broken12
I wish I knew. Same thing here. Wont let me post there.
As for the OL, well, I dont like the idea of manram anywhere anymore. And Cornick has not exactly turned heads. Time to use Montgomery

[Bronco9798]

It might be a sign. When was the last time you changed your oil?

Good question. Really not sure. I'll check now.

[MOtorboat]

Meh. It's the Raiders. Put Roby at RT.

[Davii]

For some reason my brain defaulted to this saying "oil changes this week". Obviously that isn't what it says, but thank you for the reminder anyway.

[WARHORSE]

I was growling about Cornick and the Oline first thing monday morning and felt sick to my stomach because I knew that Oline wasnt any good. It was a BLESSING to have it exposed. Better now than in January. Anyway, I still felt like growling at everyone, and felt like crap. So I went out and bought a new truck on tuesday to get my mind off the loss and the fact that I hated our OLine play............heh heh..........New Dodge Ram, HEMI, fully loaded, Sports package........I had that thing growling all over the island. Friends texting me.....
where are you? Growling. What you up to? Growling. Wife calling: Honey where are you? I just stuck the phone out the window and floored it. GROWLING, I said.



Im still pissed we had Cornick in there in the first place. The guy MAY be able to play Oline if the game was in a phone booth, but not on any patch of grass east of the temple of doom.


OIL CHANGED? CHECK.


OLINE CHANGED? CHECKITY CHECK.

[Mike]

Personally I say leave the O-Line alone. Find something that works at RT and rely on Peyton to get rid of the ball quickly which is his MO. Peyton still gets hurried and sacked much less than most other QBs and I don't think screwing with the line as far as shuffling bodies in week nine is prudent.

The problem is when you run in to teams that jam the WR at the line and play tight. That takes Manning's quick release out of the equation and results in games like NE and Sea.

[SR]

The problem is when you run in to teams that jam the WR at the line and play tight. That takes Manning's quick release out of the equation and results in games like NE and Sea.

Fair enough. I'll take that. Especially when our screen game is nonexistent like against the Pats.

If nothing else, I would be fine with just fixing RT and leaving the rest alone. Maybe move Orlando back. But if you do that then LG is vulnerable again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Though, I use the term "damned" loosely because I don't really feel like our line is all that bad.

[Mike]

Fair enough. I'll take that. Especially when our screen game is nonexistent like against the Pats.

If nothing else, I would be fine with just fixing RT and leaving the rest alone. Maybe move Orlando back. But if you do that then LG is vulnerable again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Though, I use the term "damned" loosely because I don't really feel like our line is all that bad.

Like many other things, I am skeptical on the success of this. It is also troubling that they are experimenting at this point in the season. But the o-line is the obvious weak link on the team, so I guess it is good that they are trying to do something.

[MOtorboat]

Like many other things, I am skeptical on the success of this. It is also troubling that they are experimenting at this point in the season. But the o-line is the obvious weak link on the team, so I guess it is good that they are trying to do something.

I'm skeptical that that report is true. I think it's more likely Clark goes back to RT and no one else is moved.

[SR]

Like many other things, I am skeptical on the success of this. It is also troubling that they are experimenting at this point in the season. But the o-line is the obvious weak link on the team, so I guess it is good that they are trying to do something.

I just don't like the idea of messing with too much with a 38 year old QB and a 6-2 record.

Our offensive line isn't as bad as many make it. They're gonna recover. Luckily the really hard part of the schedule is behind us and we have time to get it right.

Let's just hope the easy remainder of the schedule doesn't make this team soft to where they forget what it's like to play competitive teams. A first round exit would be embarrassing.

[SR]

I'm skeptical that that report is true. I think it's more likely Clark goes back to RT and no one else is moved.

That's about all I would be comfortable with. And let's hope he plays with a chip on his shoulder after being benched.

[PatriotsGuy]

I'm skeptical that that report is true. I think it's more likely Clark goes back to RT and no one else is moved.

I agree with you, I find it hard to believe they will start making major changes on a line this far into a season.

[GEM]

Or maybe Gase and Fox call out the guys, they put in Clark because Cornick is hurt and find out if these guys have the balls necessary. I'm more along Mo's thinking.

[NightTerror218]

One of the best OLines last season. Exposed in Superbowl. Get an all pro LT back and line goes to crap. Run blocking and pass protection are down. More penalties then ever. That does not make sense.

IMO they tweaked it too much. More Franklin back. He was exposed in one game. Everyone has a bad game. Replace Manny. He is big and sucks. I still blame him for super bowl loss. Botched snap set game tone. He has botched several snaps this season. He is bad about assigning blocks. Put Montgomery in for Manny. Move Franklin back. Put Manny as guard (original position).

[VonDoom]

On the subject of the O-line, Orlando Franklin has a guest post up at Yahoo that basically says they have to get better and not much else:



The good thing is it’s better to lose in the middle of the season than to lose in the postseason. Right now we’re still grinding each week and trying to create an identity for ourselves. It’s never a good feeling to lose but we do understand that we need to get better. It’s definitely an eye opener and we can’t be lax in our preparation each week. We lost one football game – it doesn’t mean we have to change what we do. We just have to execute better on the field. Each person has to do their jobs, and concentrate on doing it for 60 minutes.

The rest, if interested: https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/orlando-franklin--what-went-wrong-against-the-patriots--and-how-we-fix-it-190607815.html

Someone must have asked Fox about the potential changes this week, and also doesn't tell us much:


MileHighReport ‏@MileHighReport 11m11 minutes ago

Fox on potential OL shuffle: "I’m not going to get in to who’s playing, how much, when and where—just purely from a competitive standpoint."

[Davii]

Like many other things, I am skeptical on the success of this. It is also troubling that they are experimenting at this point in the season. But the o-line is the obvious weak link on the team, so I guess it is good that they are trying to do something.

I don't think it's troubling at all Mike, they should always be looking to improve. As an example, the Ravens reworked their OL just before the playoffs two years ago., worked out pretty well.

[VonDoom]

I don't think it's troubling at all Mike, they should always be looking to improve. As an example, the Ravens reworked their OL just before the playoffs two years ago., worked out pretty well.

That's actually the example I was thinking of. It's never too late to tinker ... as long as it works. Then the coaching staff look like geniuses.

[underrated29]

I don't think it's troubling at all Mike, they should always be looking to improve. As an example, the Ravens reworked their OL just before the playoffs two years ago., worked out pretty well.



That is a TERRIFIC example! I knew it had happened but I could not think of one. We should all know this one first hand. We Romped them reg season and then we could not do much after they moved a few guys around and ran the deck. I hate the ravens.

[VonDoom]

Legwold essentially confirms the reported line changes:


Now, in the wake of Sunday's 22-point loss to the New England Patriots, the Broncos are poised to make some additional moves. With Cornick held out of practice both Thursday and Friday with a shoulder injury -- he’s officially listed as questionable but not expected to play -- the Broncos have discussed several scenarios, including moving left guard Orlando Franklin back out to right tackle, where he started the previous three seasons before being moved inside in offseason workouts.

But by game time, it is expected it will be Louis Vasquez at right tackle, Manny Ramirez moved from center to right guard and Will Montgomery at center. Many inside the Broncos’ Dove Valley complex believe the moves would have been made even if Cornick had not suffered his injury.

The rest: http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/9810/broncos-poised-for-moves-in-offensive-line

[underrated29]

Legwold essentially confirms the reported line changes:



The rest: http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/9810/broncos-poised-for-moves-in-offensive-line





Also, essentailly confirms what myself, Joel and a few others have said that it is not the RBs who have been poor, its the OL. So we can now put that whole Hillman thread to rest.

[SR]

Also, essentailly confirms what myself, Joel and a few others have said that it is not the RBs who have been poor, its the OL. So we can now put that whole Hillman thread to rest.

Wasn't it you that was saying Hillman has been bad? I'm pretty sure it was

[underrated29]

Wasn't it you that was saying Hillman has been bad? I'm pretty sure it was



Youre taking that out of context amigo. Go back to that thread and read the pages before it. I have been adamant all year long that it is not the RBs who are performing badly but the OL. Their poor performance is more a result of them not having blocks then it is the RB just sucking or missing holes or whatever.

I provided tons of stats and people chose to ignore them. Now, with what the coaches are Saying and Doing, if they choose to ingore it still then they are just lying to themselves.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

There will be blocks.

Broncos offensive coordinator Adam Gase did not mince words Thursday about his disappointment in his team's running game.

"Anytime your two best runs were the last two runs of the game, that's probably more than a disappointment," Gase said. "I was really frustrated with the fact that we did not run the ball better. We do need to find a way to do it better. It's something we have to keep working on. We have to find a way to get these guys covered up (blocked), get our backs back to the line of the scrimmage and see what they can do.

"It's hard to make any ground when you're getting hit behind the line of scrimmage. That's where it starts. It starts with those front five guys making sure we've got guys covered up. Then it's the backs' job to find the hole and hit it."

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26886966/adam-gase-really-frustrated-denver-broncos-running-game

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. – If the No. 3 scoring offense in the league(30.6 points per game) and one tied for first in yards per play (6.2) can have some angst in tow then the Denver Broncos are that team.

In a week when the Super Bowl hopeful has had plenty of consternation about how they run the ball and how they protect quarterback Peyton Manning, the Broncos are expected to kick the tires on some changes in the offensive line against the Oakland Raiders on Sunday. And though Sunday is just their ninth game of the season, it will already be the second time they have tweaked the starting lineup up front. Three games ago they moved Paul Cornick into the right tackle spot, taking Chris Clark out of the lineup.

rest - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/9810/broncos-poised-for-moves-in-offensive-line

[Dzone]

Even watching the game replay, it was hard to see anything remotely impressive about Paul Cornick. Hopefully the only reason schofield is not playing is due to the learning curve and not because cornick is physically superior.

[Shazam!]

IIRC, vazquez at tackle didn't work out too well before.

[Slick]

One of the best OLines last season. Exposed in Superbowl. Get an all pro LT back and line goes to crap. Run blocking and pass protection are down. More penalties then ever. That does not make sense.

IMO they tweaked it too much. More Franklin back. He was exposed in one game. Everyone has a bad game. Replace Manny. He is big and sucks. I still blame him for super bowl loss. Botched snap set game tone. He has botched several snaps this season. He is bad about assigning blocks. Put Montgomery in for Manny. Move Franklin back. Put Manny as guard (original position).

That's what I'd do if they're looking to make a big change, otherwise I'd just stick Clark back at RT.

[GEM]

Also, essentailly confirms what myself, Joel and a few others have said that it is not the RBs who have been poor, its the OL. So we can now put that whole Hillman thread to rest.

How many more times are you going to pat yourself on the back? I think the count is up to 10 now.

[Runamok]

Personally I say leave the O-Line alone. Find something that works at RT and rely on Peyton to get rid of the ball quickly which is his MO. Peyton still gets hurried and sacked much less than most other QBs and I don't think screwing with the line as far as shuffling bodies in week nine is prudent.

Read this.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/changes-appear-imminent-broncos-o-line-220748980--nfl.html;_ylt=AwrBT8mkMV5U.XgAcaVXNyoA

And this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/69071/broncos-poised-for-moves-in-offensive-line

You may change your mind.

The Broncos need to improve their run game. You can't really count on waltzing through the playoffs and winning the SB if you can't run the ball, in MHO.

[Dzone]

I wonder how beadles is doing this year. Maybe we should have kept him

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

I wonder how beadles is doing this year. Maybe we should have kept him

In the only Jaguars game I watched, he got beat bad during his team's last chance to comeback, which caused a sack-fumble-turnover.

I think that putting Franklin at G has been a mistake. IMO, if the Broncos are going to shuffle the Oline, then they should move him back to T and give someone else a shot at G.

[SR]

That's what I'd do if they're looking to make a big change, otherwise I'd just stick Clark back at RT.

I wouldn't put Manny back at RG in any circumstance.

[SR]

Read this. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/changes-appear-imminent-broncos-o-line-220748980--nfl.html;_ylt=AwrBT8mkMV5U.XgAcaVXNyoA And this: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/69071/broncos-poised-for-moves-in-offensive-line You may change your mind. The Broncos need to improve their run game. You can't really count on waltzing through the playoffs and winning the SB if you can't run the ball, in MHO.

Look up the running stars since Hillman has started except for the Pats game. Our run game was the talk of the town until this week since Ball was injured. Now all of a sudden we can't run the ball?

[Runamok]

Look up the running stars since Hillman has started except for the Pats game. Our run game was the talk of the town until this week since Ball was injured. Now all of a sudden we can't run the ball?

Gase seems to think there is a problem, and a rather large one, as the articles indicate.

[underrated29]

How many more times are you going to pat yourself on the back? I think the count is up to 10 now.




As many as I see fit. I thnk it's probably at 2 or 3 but I may bring that number to 10 servings of crow. Many mouths to feed you know, gem.

[MOtorboat]

As many as I see fit. I thnk it's probably at 2 or 3 but I may bring that number to 10 servings of crow. Many mouths to feed you know, gem.

The problem lies on both the offensive line and the running backs, not just one part of the equation, so I'd be careful patting yourself on the back.

[underrated29]

The problem lies on both the offensive line and the running backs, not just one part of the equation, so I'd be careful patting yourself on the back.



That's obvious.
But everyone seems to forget (likely on purpose) that we have said this and the larger part of the equation goes to the OL. It's all in that thread. Instead of worrying about me being right I think people should get over it and recognize that, like the coaches, that the Ol is a big big issue and perhaps they aren't all always right like they think they are.

[MOtorboat]

But everyone seems to forget (likely on purpose) that we have said this and the larger part of the equation goes to the OL.

In your opinion.

[Northman]

How many more times are you going to pat yourself on the back? I think the count is up to 10 now.

He can keep patting himself on the back, he is still wrong. :lol:

[SR]

I just do not get why right now when we had one bad running game following three very good running games it's a problem? There is zero common sense to this argument. Gase may see it as a problem, I guess, but where's the dang problem? Hillman has been tits 3/4 games he's played and our line has blocked well for him in three out of four games. Peyton threw for almost 440 yards on Sunday. He was hurried a couple times and sacked but that happens when a QB drops back 171037 times in a game. Gase is frustrated why? Because be abandoned the run game in the first quarter? Bullshit...

[Northman]

Look up the running stars since Hillman has started except for the Pats game. Our run game was the talk of the town until this week since Ball was injured. Now all of a sudden we can't run the ball?

Indeed.

One poor game in which we were forced to play catch up in the second half and all of a sudden we dont have a run game. lmao

[Northman]

I just do not get why right now when we had one bad running game following three very good running games it's a problem? There is zero common sense to this argument. Gase may see it as a problem, I guess, but where's the dang problem? Hillman has been tits 3/4 games he's played and our line has blocked well for him in three out of four games. Peyton threw for almost 440 yards on Sunday. He was hurried a couple times and sacked but that happens when a QB drops back 171037 times in a game. Gase is frustrated why? Because be abandoned the run game in the first quarter? Bullshit...

Exactly.

There are problems everywhere on this team so while the OL has some issues of their own you can go up and down the list. The first Manning INT had nothing to do with pressure as he had none on that play and just didnt see the defender. Thats on him, thats a problem. OL has some issues, Montee Ball had a major issue before getting injured. But Hillman and Juwan have done what is asked in most of the games they have played this year. Personally, im not a huge fan of Gase as it is as i think he is vastly overrated but im pretty damn sure he has some coaching issues. Its not just one thing with this team.

[BroncoJoe]

Hillman's numbers:



2014-10-05 5 DEN ARI W 41-20 15 64 4.27 0 0 0 1 0
2014-10-12 6 DEN @ NYJ W 31-17 24 100 4.17 0 3 16 5 5.33 0
2014-10-19 7 DEN SFO W 42-17 14 74 5.29 2 4 29 4 7.25 0
2014-10-23 8 DEN SDG W 35-21 20 109 5.45 0 3 29 4 9.67 0
2014-11-02 9 DEN @ NWE L 21-43 10 16 1.60 1 7 47 10 6.71 1

Doesn't look too sucky to me before NE.

[Northman]

2014-10-5 5 den ari w 41-20 15 64 4.27 0 0 0 1 0
2014-10-12 6 den @ nyj w 31-17 24 100 4.17 0 3 16 5 5.33 0
2014-10-19 7 den sfo w 42-17 14 74 5.29 2 4 29 4 7.25 0
2014-10-23 8 den sdg w 35-21 20 109 5.45 0 3 29 4 9.67 0
2014-11-02 9 den @ nwe l 21-43 10 16 1.60 1 7 47 10 6.71 1

Doesn't look too sucky to me before NE.

Come on JOE! Its in all white!!!!!!!!!!!1 i cant see it. lmao

[BroncoJoe]

Or, we can look at Monte's numbers:



2014-09-07 1 DEN IND W 31-24 23 67 2.91 1 2 16 2 8.00 0
2014-09-14 2 DEN KAN W 24-17 12 60 5.00 0 3 29 3 9.67 0
2014-09-21 3 DEN @ SEA L 20-26 14 38 2.71 0 2 6 3 3.00 0
2014-10-05 5 DEN ARI W 41-20 6 7 1.17 0 2 11 3 5.50 0

[BroncoJoe]

Is it all white? It's black on my screen...

[Northman]

Or, we can look at Monte's numbers:



2014-09-07 1 DEN IND W 31-24 23 67 2.91 1 2 16 2 8.00 0
2014-09-14 2 DEN KAN W 24-17 12 60 5.00 0 3 29 3 9.67 0
2014-09-21 3 DEN @ SEA L 20-26 14 38 2.71 0 2 6 3 3.00 0
2014-10-05 5 DEN ARI W 41-20 6 7 1.17 0 2 11 3 5.50 0

Dude was beastly.......

[Northman]

Is it all white? It's black on my screen...

Yea, its comes up white on the blue background. Maybe how it was copied and pasted i dunno.

[Shazam!]

One of the reasons I did not want Knowshon to go.

[Northman]

One of the reasons I did not want Knowshon to go.

Knowshon aint doing shit right now.

[Valar Morghulis]

knowshon was great last year - but he was/is done.

[Joel]

I was thinking of making a "come one, come all, come kiss Joels Ass" Thread. That poor bastage deserves a severe ass kissing after all the hell people give him. As for me......you never know what I will do. Cant be too predictable, ya know. ;)
Gase practically quoted you and I, but might as well have for all the notice the Kool-Aid Kids took: They didn't call him a fake Broncos fan who should start watching games and stop pretending he's smarter than our coaches (which INCLUDE him,) but still insist all we need is just the right RB to make up for 3 subpar blockers.


Adam Gase said front 5 need to "man up" and not let #broncos RBs get hit in backfield any more.
I've been saying the same since McGahee led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT but he and Moreno couldn't finish a whole season BETWEEN them. We've yet to find the ideal RB: So far, McGahee, Moreno, Hillman and now Ball ALL got bashed for hesitation, dancing and fragility—could there be a connection OTHER than position? Like a dance card filled at the snap leads to lots of pirouetting, flinching and injuries?

The time to fix it was the offseason when I was SCREAMING to take a guard early in a draft deep at guard; instead, we signed a few journeymen and drafted an OT in the 3rd (and, I'm sorry, but NO OT good enough to be a rookie starter lasts till the 3rd.) Now it's too late, because we can't expect 5 guys to move as one after just a few weeks together.

[Joel]

It's like the coaches sat down at a meeting and said, "Okay, we lost to a much lesser team @NE, but we always lose there; what can we do to guarantee a loss @maybe the NFLs WORST team?"

At G, Vasquez is a great pass and decent run blocker, but was so bad at RT last year I actually MISSED Franklin.

Ramirez was better than I expected at C, not because he played so well (he whiffed a block that got Manning planted by (IIRC) Terrell Suggs on JTs first career TD, and we all recall how the SB started) but because he was so AWFUL at RG in 2012. Remember, he only came in then because Kuper tore loose the metal plate holding on his foot, but Ramirez was SO bad we had Kuper limp BACK out there to start the last month of the season and play the entire Ravens playoff game stumping around on a piece of jagged metal; he retired after that but is probably STILL a better G than Ramirez.

Clark, Cornick, Schofield; apparently the guy Fox last year called "the NFLs best backup OT" is barely even that now: Wha' happened, coach...?

This is getting nightmarish; Gase is absolutely right "it all starts up front," so the question is: If he KNEW that, why was our most glaring weak spot our lowest offseason priority, despite a draft AND FA market LOADED with interior blocking talent? Our secondary added TWO Pro Bowlers AND a 1st round pick; what did we get for the line Seattles front four ALONE turned into SB Swiss cheese? A benchwarmer G/C, a 3rd round RT and an UDFA RT who made our PS after the Jets cut him. #Championship

[underrated29]

In your opinion.



It's all in writing in the thread. There's no your opinion. There's no weazeling out of it.


What makes this even funnier now is how people have changed he or tune just to save face....lol.



First it was, it's the rb fault. See Hillman did good, problem solved.
I say neigh, it's the Ol where we need to look first.
Then no no no no no no from near everyone who regularly posts. You are wrong we are right.

Then the coaches come out and practically say word for what what I have said. Then the good people say well you didn't say it was both the Ol and the rb. You are still wrong....lol....

Then of course I reference the thread and then they say.....that's what you are saying but we won't believe you, we are right and you are still wrong.

THEN of course the Ol changes actually occur. Like they actually occur and then I get well you shouldn't pat yourself on the back, you're still actually wrong, or why would they make these changes?


Face it, (get ready for patting on the back).....wait for it...........wait for it.................like the comp picks (oh boy I went there) I said we would get, I am/was right.




Don't listen to me though, don't look at the facts, don't listen to the coaches, as all of these have been ignored so far, and please don't look at how the Ol takes the field tomorrow. It is much more enjoyable watching the grasping of the straws only to be coupled with a broncos win of the faid.




I have exercised the demons! This room is now clear.

[MOtorboat]

I don't know what thread you are referring to, and no matter what thread it is, this isn't a black and white issue. It's your opinion that it's the offensive line's problem. Many disagree.

[Joel]

I don't know what thread you are referring to, and no matter what thread it is, this isn't a black and white issue. It's your opinion that it's the offensive line's problem. Many disagree.
Someone should tell those many to start watching games and stop pretending they know more than the Broncos coaching staff. ;) The argument's no longer with u29, me or anyone else but FOX AND GASE.

Mannings quick reads and releases prevent a LOT of sacks; if memory serves, NE only had ONE last week, and Seattle only had ONE in the SB: Was our pass protection great in EITHER game? McGahee in 2011-2012 and Moreno in 2013 got a LOT of yards dragging forward multiple tacklers: Did all the injuries they got doing mean the run blocking was great?

Ya'll keep looking for QBs and RBs to compensate for poor blocking, but the reality is WE ALREADY HAVE THEM. They can only do so much though. With a good line, a team that can't run can pass, and a team that can't pass can run, but without good blocking no team can run, pass or even PUNT reliably (that used to be hyperbole until we let NE nearly block a punt before letting them run it back for a TD.)

[MOtorboat]

Someone should tell those many to start watching games and stop pretending they know more than the Broncos coaching staff. ;) The argument's no longer with u29, me or anyone else but FOX AND GASE.

Mannings quick reads and releases prevent a LOT of sacks; if memory serves, NE only had ONE last week, and Seattle only had ONE in the SB: Was our pass protection great in EITHER game? McGahee in 2011-2012 and Moreno in 2013 got a LOT of yards dragging forward multiple tacklers: Did all the injuries they got doing mean the run blocking was great?

Ya'll keep looking for QBs and RBs to compensate for poor blocking, but the reality is WE ALREADY HAVE THEM. They can only do so much though. With a good line, a team that can't run can pass, and a team that can't pass can run, but without good blocking no team can run, pass or even PUNT reliably (that used to be hyperbole until we let NE nearly block a punt before letting them run it back for a TD.)

And you have a penchant for over-exaggerating and beating shit to death, so call me not that worried. Notice the only thing that's shaking up the line is injury?

Personally, I think our running backs have performed sub par and the offensive line is built to pass block (thus the lack of sacks...it's not ALL Manning), because when I watch I see great pockets for Manning to throw in and windows opened everywhere. That's not Manning making those windows, that's the offensive line.

[Slick]

I don't know what thread you are referring to, and no matter what thread it is, this isn't a black and white issue. It's your opinion that it's the offensive line's problem. Many disagree.

"It's hard to make any ground when you're getting hit behind the line of scrimmage. That's where it starts. It starts with those front five guys making sure we've got guys covered up. Then it's the backs' job to find the hole and hit it."

From Carol's post on page 3.

Sounds like Gase thinks the line needs to block better and if they do, then it's up to the RBs.

[MOtorboat]

"It's hard to make any ground when you're getting hit behind the line of scrimmage. That's where it starts. It starts with those front five guys making sure we've got guys covered up. Then it's the backs' job to find the hole and hit it."

From Carol's post on page 3.

Sounds like Gase thinks the line needs to block better and if they do, then it's up to the RBs.

Right. Everyone needs to do their job better in the running game.

[Slick]

And you have a penchant for over-exaggerating and beating shit to death, so call me not that worried. Notice the only thing that's shaking up the line is injury?

Personally, I think our running backs have performed sub par and the offensive line is built to pass block (thus the lack of sacks...it's not ALL Manning), because when I watch I see great pockets for Manning to throw in and windows opened everywhere. That's not Manning making those windows, that's the offensive line.

This I agree with. The Denver o line simply isn't built to run block.

[MOtorboat]

Here, Slick...I found a perfect example of the running back making a poor choice AND poor blocking. Didn't even have to look very hard...

The Broncos set up in shotgun on the first play of the game, and in frame two you can see the Denver offensive line gets an initial push and a cutback hole, albeit slim, opens up for a three or four yard gain.
6014
6015

Hillman cuts it outside, and then you'll see the blocking break down and Franklin gets turned to the inside. I don't know if he was expecting a cutback, but it looks like it.
6016

[Joel]

And you have a penchant for over-exaggerating and beating shit to death, so call me not that worried. Notice the only thing that's shaking up the line is injury?
Right, because we have NO depth to speak of it; it's actually BETTER at OT than at G (how scary is that?!)


Personally, I think our running backs have performed sub par and the offensive line is built to pass block (thus the lack of sacks...it's not ALL Manning), because when I watch I see great pockets for Manning to throw in and windows opened everywhere. That's not Manning making those windows, that's the offensive line.
See great pockets last week? In the SB? Didn't see lots of sacks though, just like every other game; who was preventing them, 'cause it sure wasn't the line?


Right. Everyone needs to do their job better in the running game.
Gase said everyone must do their job, but DIDN'T say everyone's NOT: "It's hard to make any ground when you're getting hit behind the line of scrimmage."

YES, the RBs must find the hole, and quickly, NO, Ball didn't and YES, Hillman does, as do Thompson and Anderson: The RB problem's (mostly) solved: So why are the guys solving getting hit at the snap just like Ball did? At least Ball could drag them forward when that happened; Hillman can't, and yes, having a complete RB so we don't have to choose between power and speed would help a lot.

It just wouldn't help them get to the LoS without getting hit. " It starts with those front five guys making sure we've got guys covered up." If they're not ALL doing their job, NO ONE'S having a good day.

Know why I beat so much stuff to death? Two reasons:

1) It's been a problem for YEARS, but before now Vasquez was the only effort Elway or the coaches made to address it, and

2) ANY comment on it prompts petty sarcastic accusations and denials dismissing all supporting evidence, so—fool that I am—I defend and further support the case. It takes two to tango, man.

[MOtorboat]

You know why people say sarcastic shit to you Joel? Because you say shit like "YEARS" when the Broncos led the league three years ago.

Then you criticize Elway for not addressing it when he did the exact thing you wanted him to do by moving Franklin to guard. He did exactly what you wanted and now you are criticizing him endlessly for it. To the point where it's spam.

[Joel]

You know why people say sarcastic shit to you Joel? Because you say shit like "YEARS" when the Broncos led the league three years ago.
Right: McGahee "led the league" in yards AFTER CONTACT that year; is that the line? In a sense, maybe, but not a POSITIVE one.


Then you criticize Elway for not addressing it when he did the exact thing you wanted him to do by moving Franklin to guard. He did exactly what you wanted and now you are criticizing him endlessly for it. To the point where it's spam.
The thing I wanted? I wanted a top pick on a stud guard in a draft deep there, or, failing that, Asamoah or Schwartz, both excellent guards (one with starting OT experience) who could've been had fairly cheaply, and were—by OTHER teams. Part of what frustrates me is that guards make less than almost any other position; Pro Bowlers can be had for less than even average CBs. Yet we shell out top dollar for the sexy positions and ignore the guys in the trenches where, as Gase said, "it all starts." I guess I should just be happy we don't still do that at DT, but the guys who block DTs are at least as important.

After ignoring the interior line in the draft AND free agency, moving Franklin was at least potentially the best of the few remaining and uniformly bad alternatives. We weren't losing much at RT, because he sucked at it, and Fox assured us Clark's "the NFLs best backup OT," so anyone good enough to start most of a season at LT should be good enough for the less demanding RT spot. At guard, Franklins great strength is more of an asset and his poor mobility less of a liability—in theory; sadly, the primary pulling guard needs at least as much mobility as the RT.

Put it this way though: After ignoring the line in FA and the draft (and no, spending a 3rd rounder on a RT to develop for future seasons doesn't count,) who IS our LG if not Franklin? We had a LOT more depth at OT, even aside from "the NFLs best backup," but what did we have at G? A project former DT from the PS and a journeyman C/G? Color me excited....

[SR]

Who gives a **** about McGahee?! Jesus Jones. Grow up.

[Slick]

Who gives a **** about McGahee?! Jesus Jones. Grow up.

Joel makes a fair point re the lack of attention devoted to an O line that got their asses handed to them in the most important game of the year.

[MOtorboat]

Joel makes a fair point re the lack of attention devoted to an O line that got their asses handed to them in the most important game of the year.

Not really. He's talking in circles.

[Slick]

Not really. He's talking in circles.

The last paragraph is on point. Agree to disagree then. That's fine. I still love you.

[Joel]

Who gives a **** about McGahee?! Jesus Jones. Grow up.
Presumably, the guy going on that Denvers rushing "led the league three years ago." Who was our starting RB then?

[VonDoom]

It's like the coaches sat down at a meeting and said, "Okay, we lost to a much lesser team @NE, but we always lose there; what can we do to guarantee a loss @maybe the NFLs WORST team?"

At G, Vasquez is a great pass and decent run blocker, but was so bad at RT last year I actually MISSED Franklin.

Ramirez was better than I expected at C, not because he played so well (he whiffed a block that got Manning planted by (IIRC) Terrell Suggs on JTs first career TD, and we all recall how the SB started) but because he was so AWFUL at RG in 2012. Remember, he only came in then because Kuper tore loose the metal plate holding on his foot, but Ramirez was SO bad we had Kuper limp BACK out there to start the last month of the season and play the entire Ravens playoff game stumping around on a piece of jagged metal; he retired after that but is probably STILL a better G than Ramirez.

Clark, Cornick, Schofield; apparently the guy Fox last year called "the NFLs best backup OT" is barely even that now: Wha' happened, coach...?

This is getting nightmarish; Gase is absolutely right "it all starts up front," so the question is: If he KNEW that, why was our most glaring weak spot our lowest offseason priority, despite a draft AND FA market LOADED with interior blocking talent? Our secondary added TWO Pro Bowlers AND a 1st round pick; what did we get for the line Seattles front four ALONE turned into SB Swiss cheese? A benchwarmer G/C, a 3rd round RT and an UDFA RT who made our PS after the Jets cut him. #Championship

I believe Vasquez graded out well in his one game at RT last year, per PFF. That being said, I'd rather we not move him over. To be honest, if we're making wholesale line changes, I'd rather move Franklin back to RT, leave Vasquez, put Montgomery in at C, and either bench Ramirez or slide him to LG until Cornick is healthy.

The reality is, our line had one terrible game last year - the last one. EVERYONE has played below average this year - Vasquez has not been the dominant player he was, Clady hasn't been the same since coming back, Ramirez has fallen off a cliff, and Clark was notably bad after being a pretty capable fill-in last year. If we had known the line would be this bad, I'm sure it would have been addressed more heavily in the offseason. We made some changes and they haven't worked that well, but was there any way to truly predict that even our best players on the line (Clady, Vasquez) would be having sub-par years?

[Slick]

I believe Vasquez graded out well in his one game at RT last year, per PFF. That being said, I'd rather we not move him over. To be honest, if we're making wholesale line changes, I'd rather move Franklin back to RT, leave Vasquez, put Montgomery in at C, and either bench Ramirez or slide him to LG until Cornick is healthy.

The reality is, our line had one terrible game last year - the last one. EVERYONE has played below average this year - Vasquez has not been the dominant player he was, Clady hasn't been the same since coming back, Ramirez has fallen off a cliff, and Clark was notably bad after being a pretty capable fill-in last year. If we had known the line would be this bad, I'm sure it would have been addressed more heavily in the offseason. We made some changes and they haven't worked that well, but was there any way to truly predict that even our best players on the line (Clady, Vasquez) would be having sub-par years?

Well said. Everyone was pretty excited about the line changes at the start of the season.

[MOtorboat]

Well said. Everyone was pretty excited about the line changes at the start of the season.

Is this where I pull a UR?

[Slick]

Is this where I pull a UR?

You were definitely right about Orlando. Do your thing babycakes.

[Cugel]

Personally I say leave the O-Line alone. Find something that works at RT and rely on Peyton to get rid of the ball quickly which is his MO. Peyton still gets hurried and sacked much less than most other QBs and I don't think screwing with the line as far as shuffling bodies in week nine is prudent.

It's not supposed to be "prudent". They are WAY past prudent and on to "desperate". The OL has flat sucked. They can't run the ball at all. Monte Ball and now Hillman have been getting hit in the backfield all year. Their entire plan for winning the SB depends on taking some of the pressure off of Peyton and they can't do that being one-dimensional. That's FATAL in January in games like the New England game.

Teams are just ignoring the Broncos running game and clamping down on the receivers in the underneath zone. The Broncos try to combat this by running the ball -- and they can't do it. Defenses are just laughing at them. It's gotten so bad that every time I see them hand the ball off, I curse at the TV -- because I just know it's not going to work.

This can't continue the way it has. They can beat up on weaker teams and teams decimated by injuries, but Seattle and now the Patriots have shown everybody how to defense the Broncos offense, and they're going nowhere in the playoffs unless they get the OL straightened out - FAST!

Vasquez's best position was G despite what posters are saying about how bad he was there. And they have nobody better to move to RT. Franklin sucked last year. Clark did a generally good job at LT filling in for Clady so they gave him a shot. That didn't work out. Paul Cornick was a disaster, but he's a rookie they claimed off waivers! What did they expect throwing him to the wolves in N.E.?

[Cugel]

The weak spot is obviously Vasquez moving to RT. I don't see how that can avoid being a disaster. But, Clark and Paul Cornick were also disasters, so. . . .


Let's analyze each of these moves one-by-one. (http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/11/7/7175531/broncos-offensive-line-louis-vasquez-manny-ramirez-will-montgomery)
Will Montgomery at Center

The Broncos brought in Montgomery this offseason as a free agent signing from Washington. He has experience at both center and guard, and that's the best news - center experience. That's something not even Manny had before 2013.

While Montgomery's obviously not the Broncos' first option, he's a guy that should be able to do as well as Ramirez has this year. There's no denying that Ramirez has struggled at center in 2014. PFF gave him a grade of +19.4 in 2013; eight games into 2014, his grade is sitting at -7.1. That's not getting it done.

Meanwhile, Montgomery started in all 32 regular season games and one postseason game at center for the Redskins from 2012-2013. He graded +25.2 and +7.5 in those years respectively.

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Montgomery didn't look great in the preseason, but this is a switch that, even if Montgomery struggles, could be seen as a lateral move.
Manny Ramirez at Right Guard

Ramirez was Denver's primary right guard in 2012, with Chris Kuper struggling to get on the field in what would be his last season in the NFL. He also has left guard experience with the Lions dating back to 2009, though that doesn't do a lot for us here.

Ramirez's 2012 season at right guard was interesting. Kuper would take his spot every now and then, but Ramirez seemed to put it together by the end of the year, even grading extremely high (above +4.0) in the season's last two weeks. Then the Broncos put Kuper in the lineup for the AFC Divisional game against Baltimore, and Kuper struggled immensely.

So the bright side of this move is its two-fold: it's Ramirez's most natural position, and he was playing pretty damn well there the last time he was Denver's right guard. The downside is what the move means for the right guard position as a whole...
Louis Vasquez at Right Tackle

Ugh. This is the most obviously-bad part of this shuffle, as the Broncos are pulling away an All Pro-caliber offensive lineman from his best spot. Is Vasquez an All Pro right tackle? Probably not.

But is he a serviceable one? Maybe. He played tackle in high school (three-star recruit out of Texas), but he was primarily a guard with both Texas Tech and the San Diego Chargers. He played right tackle for the Broncos in one game in 2013 against the Colts and graded well, +2.1. But that was his 8th best grade in a 2013 season that was truly remarkable at guard for Vasquez.

This is the one move where it's clear the Broncos could be losing something in Vasquez's production, and it's a move obviously borne of desperation. Neither Cornick nor Chris Clark have done very well at right tackle this year, and for whatever reason, third round pick Michael Schofield isn't ready (which is seriously too bad).
Final thoughts

Will these moves work? As an independent study of persons in each position, there are reasons to believe that, yes, they will. But we all know the offensive line is all about chemistry. And the Broncos are poised to shake theirs up drastically.

My hope is that the Broncos improve enough at center and right tackle to offset the loss of Vasquez at guard.

[Simple Jaded]

The shotgun and pistol are garbage in the running anyways, adds on that the fact that Denver clearly doesn't spend as much time on run blocking as they do passing game and you get what you have with their running game. The Broncos have talented OL players tho.

[MOtorboat]

The shotgun and pistol are garbage in the running anyways, adds on that the fact that Denver clearly doesn't spend as much time on run blocking as they do passing game and you get what you have with their running game. The Broncos have talented OL players tho.

Actually the formations have nothing to do with it. That's a complete myth.

[NightTerror218]

The shotgun and pistol are garbage in the running anyways, adds on that the fact that Denver clearly doesn't spend as much time on run blocking as they do passing game and you get what you have with their running game. The Broncos have talented OL players tho.

Talented but none of them are playing at pro bowl level.

[Simple Jaded]

Actually the formations have nothing to do with it. That's a complete myth.

Look, I know you've done far more research on this than most, especially me, still it's a long-held belief that I'd need more than a few averages from one team to waver on.

[MOtorboat]

Look, I know you've done far more research on this than most, especially me, still it's a long-held belief that I'd need more than a few averages from one team to waver on.

That's fair enough, I just think the idea is a complete myth. Nevada regularly leads the NCAA or is near the top every year in college and they run nothing but the pistol.

[SR]

Once Joel starts posting I start scrolling and immediately lose interest. Broncos Talk was so good the last couple of days until the Joel.

[underrated29]

Is this where I pull a UR?



Depends, did you have half the board calling you out and telling you you were wrong? If so, MO, please enter stage left. The floor is yours......

[Traveler]

What I wouldn't give to have Tony Jones at RT. One can dream I guess. Jury is still out with all these possible changes IMO. One more change needed is to let our RB's start running out of the I-formation. Unless Manning is that slow afoot, I can't understand why they haven't done it much more . They did do it with Thompson playing FB down near the goal line with relative success.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Look, I know you've done far more research on this than most, especially me, still it's a long-held belief that I'd need more than a few averages from one team to waver on.

That's fair enough, I just think the idea is a complete myth. Nevada regularly leads the NCAA or is near the top every year in college and they run nothing but the pistol.

I don't think Nevada is a great example here. Their opponents are not pro caliber defenses. On top of that, the pistol and shotgun running formations work in college because of the read option.

Manning isn't a threat to run so it's just not as effective when we do it. SF, Seattle, and Carolina use it effectively because of their QBs. Look at Philly trying to use it. LeSean McCoy is having a down year and not running well because nobody believes Foles will run so they're just playing to stop McCoy.

With a shotgun running formation, you put a lot on your Oline to be able to block one on one. If one guy is unaccounted for or overpowers the Olineman because of a need to double team a defender at the point of attack, then there's a free hitter to the RB because there's no lead FB. The effect of "spreading the defense out" only really works against the DBs but the LBs are still in the box filling gaps.

Honestly, with our offense we must use the pass to set up the run. They must believe we'll pass on 1st down to loosen up the box or those 5 OLineman don't have a chance against 6 or even 7 defenders.

[MOtorboat]

I don't think Nevada is a great example here. Their opponents are not pro caliber defenses. On top of that, the pistol and shotgun running formations work in college because of the read option.

Manning isn't a threat to run so it's just not as effective when we do it. SF, Seattle, and Carolina use it effectively because of their QBs. Look at Philly trying to use it. LeSean McCoy is having a down year and not running well because nobody believes Foles will run so they're just playing to stop McCoy.

With a shotgun running formation, you put a lot on your Oline to be able to block one on one. If one guy is unaccounted for or overpowers the Olineman because of a need to double team a defender at the point of attack, then there's a free hitter to the RB because there's no lead FB. The effect of "spreading the defense out" only really works against the DBs but the LBs are still in the box filling gaps.

Honestly, with our offense we must use the pass to set up the run. They must believe we'll pass on 1st down to loosen up the box or those 5 OLineman don't have a chance against 6 or even 7 defenders.

McCoy is 4th in the league in rushing. And he was first last year, on a team that primarily uses the shotgun. I think you picked a bad example.

I simply disagree, and I think NFL teams disagree and I think the statistics disagree.

[BroncoJoe]

I think the only time running from under center is better is for short yardage. Otherwise, it's basically the same.

[Cugel]

I believe Vasquez graded out well in his one game at RT last year, per PFF. That being said, I'd rather we not move him over. To be honest, if we're making wholesale line changes, I'd rather move Franklin back to RT, leave Vasquez, put Montgomery in at C, and either bench Ramirez or slide him to LG until Cornick is healthy.

The reality is, our line had one terrible game last year - the last one. EVERYONE has played below average this year - Vasquez has not been the dominant player he was, Clady hasn't been the same since coming back, Ramirez has fallen off a cliff, and Clark was notably bad after being a pretty capable fill-in last year. If we had known the line would be this bad, I'm sure it would have been addressed more heavily in the offseason. We made some changes and they haven't worked that well, but was there any way to truly predict that even our best players on the line (Clady, Vasquez) would be having sub-par years?

The biggest disappointment is Chris Clark. He did well filling in at LT, but he's struggled so severely at RT they've basically given up on him. The word out of Dove Valley according to ESPN Radio is that he's just not improving at all. The same defects they noted starting the season are still there and nothing is changing for the better with him.

At this point, they can't even run their entire offensive playbook because they have to compensate for the deficiencies of their OL. There's just no way they're going to win the SB like that!

Vasquez to RT is a desperation move. What choice do they have? Franklin was always mediocre at pass-blocking so they moved him inside where his slow feet shouldn't matter so much. He doesn't have to be quick in space, he just has to be strong at the point of attack and he's a HUGE man, so that should have worked. But, for some reason he's struggled all year and he seldom gets to the 2nd level in run blocking.

I don't know what the problem is, but it is clearly a problem. I don't see the Broncos re-signing Orlando Franklin after this season. Obviously they can't move him back to RT where he was so horrible in the SB.

Manny Ramirez hasn't looked good at RG either. As for Montgomery at C, he's clearly a 1 season tire-patch.

Next off-season they're going to need at least 3 new OL. They're stuck with Clady having signed him to the huge contract before the 2013 season, but he hasn't been worth it either.

He's certainly not one of the top 5 LTs in football right now, and that's the kind of contract he got!

You know things are a real mess when they're thinking about signing a guy like Incognito who's been out of football for over a year and doesn't know the system to begin with. I'd say there's zero chance he'd be able to just come in and start and play well, yet they're clearly considering it. He certainly can't be in football shape. This is November for Christ's sake, if they were going to do something like that it should have been in training camp where they could have worked him into the lineup.

Just a wild swing in the dark that I can't imagine would work.

[Valar Morghulis]

I dont think they could have foreseen the offensive line failing in the way it has during the pre-season. The CBA does not permit a enormous amount of work together, so they hoped it would come good in the season - i dont see what else they could have done.

It has not worked out as well as they hoped, so they are trying to change it - I do not see anything wrong with that, and applaud their decision to take steps to make it better.

As i said in an earlier post - the Ravens changed their whole O-Line round about week 12 during the 2012 season, and ended up winning the whole thing.

[Joel]

The biggest disappointment is Chris Clark. He did well filling in at LT, but he's struggled so severely at RT they've basically given up on him. The word out of Dove Valley according to ESPN Radio is that he's just not improving at all. The same defects they noted starting the season are still there and nothing is changing for the better with him.
Clark DIDN'T fill in well at LT: He gave up strip-sacks in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES, two resulting in TDs and the third a safety. Fox calling Clark the NFLs best backup OT says more of Fox than of Clark.


At this point, they can't even run their entire offensive playbook because they have to compensate for the deficiencies of their OL. There's just no way they're going to win the SB like that!
Welcome to my world, man; it's not a new problem, and was on full display well before our last SB: The SB just made it hard to hide or deny, because literally the whole world was watching. :(


Vasquez to RT is a desperation move. What choice do they have? Franklin was always mediocre at pass-blocking so they moved him inside where his slow feet shouldn't matter so much. He doesn't have to be quick in space, he just has to be strong at the point of attack and he's a HUGE man, so that should have worked. But, for some reason he's struggled all year and he seldom gets to the 2nd level in run blocking.
The reason's so clear it's embarrassing I didn't expect it (but then, neither did the coaches:) The LG's the primary PULLING guard (it was Beadles' SOLE asset,) so Franklins slow feet are as big a liability there as they were on the edge vs. fast agile pass rushers. He's got the same problem as Clark: Good vs. straight-ahead bull rushers, but beaten by speed and agility, whether around the corner or stunts inside.


I don't know what the problem is, but it is clearly a problem. I don't see the Broncos re-signing Orlando Franklin after this season. Obviously they can't move him back to RT where he was so horrible in the SB.
Yeah, I don't expect that either; his sullen preseason tweets about moving to guard and local radio interviews about trying out Incognito indicate neither a guard willing to re-sign cheaply nor a front office willing to pay him top dollar. I guess no one told Franklin the move was as much about him sucking at RT as it was replacing Beadles. The rest of our line may not be on the same page as the coaches, but Franklin's not even on the same book.


Manny Ramirez hasn't looked good at RG either. As for Montgomery at C, he's clearly a 1 season tire-patch.
I wouldn't be suprised if he stuck around as a backup or even starter; he's only 31, and has a ton of starting experience at C and G, so it's not like he's some scrub off the street.


Next off-season they're going to need at least 3 new OL. They're stuck with Clady having signed him to the huge contract before the 2013 season, but he hasn't been worth it either.

He's certainly not one of the top 5 LTs in football right now, and that's the kind of contract he got!

You know things are a real mess when they're thinking about signing a guy like Incognito who's been out of football for over a year and doesn't know the system to begin with. I'd say there's zero chance he'd be able to just come in and start and play well, yet they're clearly considering it. He certainly can't be in football shape. This is November for Christ's sake, if they were going to do something like that it should have been in training camp where they could have worked him into the lineup.

Just a wild swing in the dark that I can't imagine would work.
*shrugs* They needed 3 new linemen LAST offseason, when nearly everyone here swore I was out of my mind for saying so. Every FA pool and draft class is always a crap shoot for talent at any given position, but BOTH were LOADED with great guards last year, we had a dire need there and Gase told Phil Simms point blank that Seattle abused historys greatest passing throughout the SB precisely because we had NO run game to demand their attention: The very thing I stated was my biggest fear going INTO that game. But we can't go back in time and do what I wanted then.

Hopefully, all the Pro Bowlers and first ballot HoFers we've got at the all-important "skill" positions will make up for the LACK of talent among our supposedly trivial interior offensive linemen. Whether it is or not though, there's NOTHING we can do after FA, the draft and trade deadline to fix it: That ship has sailed, been captured and looted by pirates, burned and sunk into the sea.

[Joel]

I dont think they could have foreseen the offensive line failing in the way it has during the pre-season. The CBA does not permit a enormous amount of work together, so they hoped it would come good in the season - i dont see what else they could have done.
They didn't have to foresee it: It was on clear display throughout last season (again, Clark gave up strip-sacks for scores in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES, long before the SB.) It's true that even a broken clock's right twice a day, but that's not really not my situation: Our offensive line actually HAS been substandard for years—it was just impossible to hide in a globally broadcast SB.


It has not worked out as well as they hoped, so they are trying to change it - I do not see anything wrong with that, and applaud their decision to take steps to make it better.
Sure, but the guard-heavy FA period and draft class are gone now, so they're closing the barn door after the cow are out.


As i said in an earlier post - the Ravens changed their whole O-Line round about week 12 during the 2012 season, and ended up winning the whole thing.
Right: So we just need Manning to announce retirement going into the playoffs so the NFL hands him a second SB Ring as a gold watch like they did Ray Lewis.

[Valar Morghulis]

They didn't have to foresee it: It was on clear display throughout last season (again, Clark gave up strip-sacks for scores in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES, long before the SB.) It's true that even a broken clock's right twice a day, but that's not really not my situation: Our offensive line actually HAS been substandard for years—it was just impossible to hide in a globally broadcast SB.


Sure, but the guard-heavy FA period and draft class are gone now, so they're closing the barn door after the cow are out.


Right: So we just need Manning to announce retirement going into the playoffs so the NFL hands him a second SB Ring as a gold watch like they did Ray Lewis.

i usually quite enjoy your posts, but i think this is one of your worst.

Sure, they seen it did not work last season - thats why they shifted things around so much in the off season in an effort to make it right this year, In FA they improved the defence, and replaced Decker. In the draft they filled holes in our db, and added some depth at a skill position. They actively sourced rb depth from those who were undrafted.

IMO they simply thought the reshuffle of the O-Line would meet the needs of the team, no one could see Clady being average, after last year ManRam and Vasquez looked to be good enough, the move of Franklin seemed to make sense and no matter what you say Clark had a good year last year. NO TEAM has 11 all pros on the field at one time. Every team has holes, that is the nature of the salary cap and the way the NFL wants it so that the league is competitive.

We have a great squad. We should be enjoying this period. I am. But then again, i can accept that perfection is unrealistic - so i am happy with pretty darn good.

As for the Ray Lewis comment - not sure if that was a joke, but if it was not, it was beneath you.

[Joel]

i usually quite enjoy your posts, but i think this is one of your worst.

Sure, they seen it did not work last season - thats why they shifted things around so much in the off season in an effort to make it right this year, In FA they improved the defence, and replaced Decker. In the draft they filled holes in our db, and added some depth at a skill position. They actively sourced rb depth from those who were undrafted.
The defense didn't NEED improvement: Even with literally HALF its starters out hurt, Elway himself said "our defense kept us in" the SB, so it makes little sense for him to (rightly) say that, then promptly break the bank improving a unit that kept us in the SB till halftime at the expense of ignoring the offensive line that got us blown out from the first scrimmage play. Adding a #5 WR should certainly be a lower priority than fixing a problem that cost us a championship; the only way Latimer makes sense in the second is if we see him starting in a couple seasons, and even then that's not worth sacrificing a title shot.


IMO they simply thought the reshuffle of the O-Line would meet the needs of the team, no one could see Clady being average, after last year ManRam and Vasquez looked to be good enough, the move of Franklin seemed to make sense and no matter what you say Clark had a good year last year. NO TEAM has 11 all pros on the field at one time. Every team has holes, that is the nature of the salary cap and the way the NFL wants it so that the league is competitive.
They clearly THOUGHT that; it's the only way to explain doing NOTHING to fix a problem they've publicly admitted cost them a SB. Why and even HOW they thought that remains to be seen; in 3 of 11 regular season starts, Clark played 11 caused a turnover that gave opponents points: If that's a good year, I'd hate to see a bad one. Franklin had the most penalties of any season in his career. Ramirez was a lot better at C in 2013 than at RG in 2012, but that's setting the bar pretty low: He was SUCH a bad RG we stuck Kuper back out there stumping around on one leg for the playoffs.

Clady's bounced back from injury as badly as last time, but he and Vasquez are still our ONLY truly good starting linemen, and moving our All Pro RG to the RT spot where he underperformed even Franklin last year is more likely to create new problems than solve any existing ones. Especially when it means Ramirez goes from the C spot where he had a few good and a few really bad games in 2013 to the RG spot where he had an awful SEASON in 2012. None of this should be news to anyone who spends hours/day watching game tape and overseeing our practices.


We have a great squad. We should be enjoying this period. I am. But then again, i can accept that perfection is unrealistic - so i am happy with pretty darn good.
We DO have a great squad that SHOULD be winning SBs, not happy to simply REACH one only to be blown out from kickoff to gun and lose by 5 TDs. Everywhere BUT the offensive line, this team's SOLID all the way down to the waterboy (or was before losing two starting LBs, but, again, their backup's are still pretty good, and Trevathan's returning in about a month.) But, as Gase himself says, "it all starts up front." It's like we've set out to prove even historys BEST offense can't function without at least an adequate offensive line.


As for the Ray Lewis comment - not sure if that was a joke, but if it was not, it was beneath you.
It was beneath the NFL to brand a multiple murderer a "humanitarian" (apparently they think "humanitarian" is like "vegetarian") and hand him a second SB as a lifetime achievement award. The calls in Baltimores wildcard game against Indy were unbelievable, but at least it made their next game a lot more understandable: That postseason was in the bag the moment Lewis said he was retiring. It really made me wonder about perennial allegations the NFL's just pro wrestling on steroids, because that team was garbage before and since those 4 games when NO ONE could beat them.

Seriously, in what unstaged world does a team leader publicly announce retirement BEFORE instead of AFTER the playoffs? MAYBE on a prohibitive title favorite, but a beatup over-the-hill team lucky to even win its division? I wouldn't be surprised if that SB blackout was just Goodell calling the refs to say SF should score some points so the boxscore at least looked credible. Last year didn't help much: Somewhere between the 1st and 4th quarter, my friend from Italy commented "this isn't the same team I saw 2 weeks ago" and "if this were a FIFA championship, there'd be an investigation into match-fixing."

I'm not saying it's an outright fix everyone's in on, but refs letting things slide for one team and calling everything on others would explain an awful lot. Maybe it's just good old fashioned bread and circuses, and comparisons between the gladiators of the old and new republic are more apt than any of us wants to admit.

[Valar Morghulis]

Joel, we can agree to differ on this.

All i will concede is the defense played well in the superbowl - but that does not mean it did not need improving. Our defense last year could not have carried us when our offense fails to thrive - this one can.

[SR]

Clark didn't play well at LT huh Joel. Weird. You must be the only one that thinks that.

[Joel]

Clark didn't play well at LT huh Joel. Weird. You must be the only one that thinks that.
Is he hurt or something? Because when Cornick got hurt after taking his less demanding RIGHT tackle job, he STILL didn't get back on the field: We shifted an All Pro RG over despite how badly he played RT when Franklin was hurt last year. Strip-sacks for scores in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES, plus the SB debacle; just how good were his other games that those 4 AWFUL ones still add up to "played well"? And those are just the ones I noticed and remembered, because it's hard to miss a guy who lets defenders blindside your QB and score; there were almost certainly other lesser gaffes I missed.

[SR]

You get so hung up on little things you can't see the big picture. For someone who uses the "sum of the parts" phrase way too damn much you don't seem to get it at all.

[MOtorboat]

You get so hung up on little things you can't see the big picture. For someone who uses the "sum of the parts" phrase way too damn much you don't seem to get it at all.

Joel remembers three plays from last year. Therefore he is right.

[Joel]

Joel, we can agree to differ on this.

All i will concede is the defense played well in the superbowl - but that does not mean it did not need improving. Our defense last year could not have carried us when our offense fails to thrive - this one can.
Last years D DID carry us several times when the offense failed to thrive. Imagine how that 'Skins game ends if our D gives up more than one score in the first half, so when our offense giftwraps TWO TDs (thank you, Chris Clark) to start the second half, we're not down 21-7, but 28-7 or worse. We didn't exactly light up SD in the playoffs (or any of three games against them) but our D held them to just a single score until Harris tore his ACL and they started running desperate 2:00 Drills to save their season. Peyton Manning didn't sack Brady on 4th down to seal the AFCCG, Terrance Knighton did.

Or how 'bout the one that got away: Before DRC got hurt just before and Kevin Vickersons season ended just after halftime, our D carried us to a 24-0 lead @NE while "failing to thrive" was EXACTLY what our offense did all night. We can't blame the D for our QB and RBs handing NE 3 turnovers when all they had to do was kill clock with the massive lead our D gave them, and if our offense had thrived just enough to punch it in from 1st and G at the 5 in the first half that game never goes to OT.

All our D needed was offseason convalescence to get Miller, Harris, Vickerson, Wolfe and Moore healthy—but our offensive line was a mess with 4 of the same 5 guys who started Opening Day 2014, so it's no surprise they're no better now than then. Every defender capable of more than a bull rush still runs circles around Franklin and Clark, and Ramirez is still the same guy who gave a defensive linemen a clean shot at Mannings ribs on Opening Day 2013, plowed into a pile from behind and late so Knowshons commando crawl didn't end the game @KC, and sent the SBs first scrimmage snap past PFMs head.

None of those things, nor Clarks strip-sacks for scores, should be news to anyone. You'd have to ask the coaches why they thought the same three poor blockers would be better if shuffled.

[Joel]

You get so hung up on little things you can't see the big picture. For someone who uses the "sum of the parts" phrase way too damn much you don't seem to get it at all.
The whole's greater than the sum of the parts, yet still consists solely of them; it's an emergence thing. Though I wouldn't call plays that cost us two games and nearly cost us four "little;" is a quarter of the season little? But I'm sure Clark was outstanding otherwise; he'd have to be, to have four disastrous games yet still "play well" overall.

[SR]

Jesus H. If I was this unhappy and blindly critical of the team I claimed to be a fan of I would probably root for another team. Being critical is one thing, being hateful is another.

[MOtorboat]

Back to bitching and moaning about last year's offense.

Never gets old, does it?

[SR]

Back to bitching and moaning about last year's offense. Never gets old, does it?

Yes it does

[Simple Jaded]

Joel, we can agree to differ on this.

All i will concede is the defense played well in the superbowl - but that does not mean it did not need improving. Our defense last year could not have carried us when our offense fails to thrive - this one can.

How many points did the defense give up in the SB? In the black and white, "3-strips-sacks-in-3-straight-games" world Joel lives in it seems as though you're both wrong.

[Simple Jaded]

The 2013 defense carried the offense and Chris Clark sucked? I shoulda kept dude on ignore.

[Valar Morghulis]

How many points did the defense give up in the SB? In the black and white, "3-strips-sacks-in-3-straight-games" world Joel lives in it seems as though you're both wrong.

Sorry mate I am not sure what you mean

I know you know your shit, but here is an answer to your question - the defence gave up 27, the offence 8 and special teams 7.

But those 27 points came from turnovers, 3 and outs and recovered onside kick.

First quarter 8 points allowed, 2 from safety, 6 from field goals (here the D kept us in it while the offense did nothing)

Second quarter 2 tds (one of which came from a 3 and out, the other a pic 6)

Third quarter punt return for the score then another offensive turnover led to another td.

Fourth quarter a td came from good field position after an inside kick was recovered

So I don't see how the defence can take the heat, holding Seattle to 2 field goals in the first kept us in it.

But let's be clear, I do not agree with Joel on anything else in this thread apart from the fact I thought our defence performed admirably in adversity during the superbowl.

[MOtorboat]

It was one game. A bad game. The most important game. But it was one God damned game.

Elway didn't overreact to that game and neither should we. The one mistake Denver made in reaction to that one game was moving Franklin inside and insisting on keeping him there.

Elway fixed the defense. Because that's what needed fixed. The whole season, the defense had issues and the offense did not. Everything Elway did this offseason indicated that.

[Valar Morghulis]

It was one game. A bad game. The most important game. But it was one God damned game.

Elway didn't overreact to that game and neither should we. The one mistake Denver made in reaction to that one game was moving Franklin inside and insisting on keeping him there.

Elway fixed the defense. Because that's what needed fixed. The whole season, the defense had issues and the offense did not. Everything Elway did this offseason indicated that.

This is what I think too - am I not making that clear? Because if I am not - I would like to make it clear now lol

[MOtorboat]

This is what I think too - am I not making that clear? Because if I am not - I would like to make it clear now lol

No. You get it. Spambag doesn't have a clue.

[Simple Jaded]

Sorry mate I am not sure what you mean

I know you know your shit, but here is an answer to your question - the defence gave up 27, the offence 8 and special teams 7.

But those 27 points came from turnovers, 3 and outs and recovered onside kick.

First quarter 8 points allowed, 2 from safety, 6 from field goals (here the D kept us in it while the offense did nothing)

Second quarter 2 tds (one of which came from a 3 and out, the other a pic 6)

Third quarter punt return for the score then another offensive turnover led to another td.

Fourth quarter a td came from good field position after an inside kick was recovered

So I don't see how the defence can take the heat, holding Seattle to 2 field goals in the first kept us in it.

But let's be clear, I do not agree with Joel on anything else in this thread apart from the fact I thought our defence performed admirably in adversity during the superbowl.

I was merely commenting on the hypocrisy of Joel's reality, SB results absolutely define Franklin but not the defense.

[Valar Morghulis]

I was merely commenting on the hypocrisy of Joel's reality, SB results absolutely define Franklin but not the defense.

Got ya

[Simple Jaded]

Got ya

I don't even disagree with you, just saying that in the pedantic reality Joel insists on living the Broncos defense gave up 27 point in the SB, that's pretty bad. Black and white, bad is bad, there is no nuance and no context, except for when that reality conflicts with his narrative.