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View Full Version : Our next OC.....Who would we like to be OC for us once Gase leaves for HC



underrated29
11-06-2014, 12:53 PM
With all the talk about fox being fired and whatnot I felt it prudent to actually discuss a FO decision that will come to pass. As we know, Gase was asked to be the Cleveland Browns head coach. He turned that down last year. I doubt he will interview to be the Raiders Head Coach, but someone, somewhere will likely make him an offer he cannot refuse. Jets maybe. Who knows.

What we do know is that it is very likely that Gase will be leaving this offseason for a better position. Who do we like to come in and be our OC.


They will keep the same system no doubt, but may provide better game planning, as imo, gase does not do this very well. Just sticking to our guns and not exploiting other teams weaknesses.



Who is available?
Who do you want?

BroncoJoe
11-06-2014, 12:55 PM
With all the talk about fox being fired and whatnot I felt it prudent to actually discuss a FO decision that will come to pass. As we know, Gase was asked to be the Cleveland Browns head coach. He turned that down last year. I doubt he will interview to be the Raiders Head Coach, but someone, somewhere will likely make him an offer he cannot refuse. Jets maybe. Who knows.

What we do know is that it is very likely that Gase will be leaving this offseason for a better position. Who do we like to come in and be our OC.


They will keep the same system no doubt, but may provide better game planning, as imo, gase does not do this very well. Just sticking to our guns and not exploiting other teams weaknesses.



Who is available?
Who do you want?

:confused:

Jesus. We lost one game against a team we ALWAYS (post Elway anyway) have a problem with - especially in their house (just like the other 30 teams in the NFL).


Game Notes: Tom Brady wins 41st straight home game against AFC

http://www.patriots.com/news/article-1/Game-Notes-Tom-Brady-wins-41st-straight-home-game-against-AFC/56c8bbc3-6201-4a7e-92eb-d7eb2227f726

underrated29
11-06-2014, 01:12 PM
Im not sure what the pats game has to do with this Joe? We still run rather predictable plays. We still run out of very stupid formations, often times slow developing plays against fast defenses. The "favorite" bubble screen has been run to death. (I bet we see it this week though and I bet it works)....however, none of it matters as Gase will likely be gone.

I remember we were looking hard at Ken Whiz. Not sure what he is doing these days? Maybe he is an option we consider to replace Adam with once he leaves. (which in all likely hood will be this year)

Slick
11-06-2014, 01:16 PM
You want to talk about this yet you chide people for pondering whether or not they're worried about the results and team performance in the New England game?

Come on, man!

underrated29
11-06-2014, 01:22 PM
Huh?

Valar Morghulis
11-06-2014, 01:33 PM
I think Ken Whisenhunt is the HC of the Titans - So i doubt he would come.

I can not think i am aware of any top level NFL OC that will be available - so they will either promote from within in order to keep continuity and a similar scheme or they will look towards someone from the NCAA.

Anyone like Kyle Shanahan?

tripp
11-06-2014, 01:42 PM
I'm happy with Gase to be honest, he's a smart guy and would love for him to stay in Denver for as long as possible. With that being said, if he did leave, I would love to see Kyle Shanahan here teaching Oz.

SR
11-06-2014, 02:34 PM
Im not sure what the pats game has to do with this Joe? We still run rather predictable plays. We still run out of very stupid formations, often times slow developing plays against fast defenses. The "favorite" bubble screen has been run to death. (I bet we see it this week though and I bet it works)....however, none of it matters as Gase will likely be gone. I remember we were looking hard at Ken Whiz. Not sure what he is doing these days? Maybe he is an option we consider to replace Adam with once he leaves. (which in all likely hood will be this year)


I would have really expected some research to be done on your part before posting a thread like this. Just sayin

BroncoJoe
11-06-2014, 02:39 PM
Im not sure what the pats game has to do with this Joe? We still run rather predictable plays. We still run out of very stupid formations, often times slow developing plays against fast defenses. The "favorite" bubble screen has been run to death. (I bet we see it this week though and I bet it works)....however, none of it matters as Gase will likely be gone.

I remember we were looking hard at Ken Whiz. Not sure what he is doing these days? Maybe he is an option we consider to replace Adam with once he leaves. (which in all likely hood will be this year)

Well, considering he directed the most prolific offense in history last year (and is on track to be well above average this year), I take issue with your comment that I highlighted.

Since you're posting this after the NE loss, I think it has a crapload to do with the Pats and that game.

underrated29
11-06-2014, 04:27 PM
I would have really expected some research to be done on your part before posting a thread like this. Just sayin


Well, considering he directed the most prolific offense in history last year (and is on track to be well above average this year), I take issue with your comment that I highlighted.

Since you're posting this after the NE loss, I think it has a crapload to do with the Pats and that game.




Im not sure what you guys are getting at here. I think you are both severely misunderstanding or trying to find coincidences.



Lets dumb it down for everyone:

- last year Gase was offered HC jobs. He declined as there was not a good fit for him.
- Gase is once again going to be a leading candidate for a HC job this year. Some positions are already open.
- People wanted to get rid of Fox (dumb), I make a thread about something that is actually likely to happen- (Us losing Gase)
- If Gase leaves for a HC position, who would you like to replace him? What are the options available?




Everyone get it now?

BroncoJoe
11-06-2014, 04:34 PM
Im not sure what you guys are getting at here. I think you are both severely misunderstanding or trying to find coincidences.

Lets dumb it down for everyone:

- last year Gase was offered HC jobs. He declined as there was not a good fit for him.
- Gase is once again going to be a leading candidate for a HC job this year. Some positions are already open.
- People wanted to get rid of Fox (dumb), I make a thread about something that is actually likely to happen- (Us losing Gase)
- If Gase leaves for a HC position, who would you like to replace him? What are the options available?

Everyone get it now?

Dumb it down is a good choice of words.


... provide better game planning, as imo, gase does not do this very well.

This statement from your OP is what I was responding to. I even highlighted it for you so you knew what I was taking issue with, and stated it in my follow up post. This will be the 3rd time now...

Personally, I think it's an effort in futility discussing who might replace Gace as OC at this juncture. He may not leave. Plus, who are we supposed to discuss? Everyone who might be worthwhile is already employed.

Just like Gase.

underrated29
11-06-2014, 04:56 PM
Dumb it down is a good choice of words.



This statement from your OP is what I was responding to. I even highlighted it for you so you knew what I was taking issue with, and stated it in my follow up post. This will be the 3rd time now...

Personally, I think it's an effort in futility discussing who might replace Gace as OC at this juncture. He may not leave. Plus, who are we supposed to discuss? Everyone who might be worthwhile is already employed.

Just like Gase.



Well, I do think Gase could do a better job of game planning. That has no bearing on the outcome of the pats game though. Nor this thread. He is not perfect, no one is. He is our Best OC in a Helluva long time!!! But that is where I think he could improve, being a young guy and all I expect it too. Sadly, not with us.

As for who to discuss, that I do not know. Which is why i wanted to discuss it. Gase is currently not available, but I bet somewhere there is discussions about Gase being a teams new HC. Can we not speculate on some prospects?


I honestly do not know of any though. Its one area I have never paid attention too until they name the candidates, then I look at what they bring to the table.

Ravage!!!
11-06-2014, 05:07 PM
Im not sure what the pats game has to do with this Joe? We still run rather predictable plays. We still run out of very stupid formations, often times slow developing plays against fast defenses. The "favorite" bubble screen has been run to death. (I bet we see it this week though and I bet it works)....however, none of it matters as Gase will likely be gone.

I remember we were looking hard at Ken Whiz. Not sure what he is doing these days? Maybe he is an option we consider to replace Adam with once he leaves. (which in all likely hood will be this year)

Wait.. what? Stupid formations? Under.. can you please list your qualifications for us? Because for the life of me I can't figure out where you are getting these ridiculous statements.

As for the OP, I haven't seen "all this talk" about Fox being fired....except maybe from you? If Gase is gone, it's probably for a HC job somewhere.

BroncoJoe
11-06-2014, 05:44 PM
Im not sure what the pats game has to do with this Joe? We still run rather predictable plays. We still run out of very stupid formations, often times slow developing plays against fast defenses. The "favorite" bubble screen has been run to death. (I bet we see it this week though and I bet it works)....however, none of it matters as Gase will likely be gone.

I remember we were looking hard at Ken Whiz. Not sure what he is doing these days? Maybe he is an option we consider to replace Adam with once he leaves. (which in all likely hood will be this year)

Isn't he the HC of Arizona? Maybe he'd rather be our OC.

Valar Morghulis
11-06-2014, 05:45 PM
Isn't he the HC of Arizona? Maybe he'd rather be our OC.

Nah, thats Arians now - and I would be happy with him lol

underrated29
11-06-2014, 06:40 PM
Wait.. what? Stupid formations? Under.. can you please list your qualifications for us? Because for the life of me I can't figure out where you are getting these ridiculous statements.

As for the OP, I haven't seen "all this talk" about Fox being fired....except maybe from you? If Gase is gone, it's probably for a HC job somewhere.



Running out of the pistol everytime is pretty stupid.


I can guarantee you have not seen one single post from me about fox, or any new coach or anything like that. So, no. But feel free to dig up any and all posts. Im not like the Vettesplus guy. I stand by what I say and I dont lie to be right.....or wrong for that matter.


and yes, Gase will likely leave for a HC position, which is what I said in the OP. The question posed was when he leaves who would you like to replace him?

SR
11-06-2014, 07:13 PM
Running out of the pistol everytime is pretty stupid. I can guarantee you have not seen one single post from me about fox, or any new coach or anything like that. So, no. But feel free to dig up any and all posts. Im not like the Vettesplus guy. I stand by what I say and I dont lie to be right.....or wrong for that matter. and yes, Gase will likely leave for a HC position, which is what I said in the OP. The question posed was when he leaves who would you like to replace him?

Jesus Christ. I'll play your silly little game.

Promote from within. Maybe Studesville. We don't need some big name OC when we already have one named Peyton Manning.

underrated29
11-06-2014, 08:01 PM
Jesus Christ. I'll play your silly little game.

Promote from within. Maybe Studesville. We don't need some big name OC when we already have one named Peyton Manning.




Silly game?

Lol you guys are weird. Gase leaving is a real possibility.
Studes could be an option. We did make him interim HC for 3 games.

dogfish
11-06-2014, 08:25 PM
i'd probably go after somebody from the green bay staff. . . tom clements with a promotion to asst. head coach, or maybe alex van pelt. . . i love mccarthy's offense, best scheme in the NFL right now IMO. . .

DenBronx
11-06-2014, 08:46 PM
You all get way too cranky sometimes.

Slick
11-06-2014, 10:00 PM
You all get way too cranky sometimes.

I know right? That slick guy is a real a hole.

dogfish
11-06-2014, 11:49 PM
You all get way too cranky sometimes.

seriously. . . :lol:

underrated29
11-07-2014, 01:56 AM
i'd probably go after somebody from the green bay staff. . . tom clements with a promotion to asst. head coach, or maybe alex van pelt. . . i love mccarthy's offense, best scheme in the NFL right now IMO. . .



Better then the colts even?
I can't say I disagree but the colts are looking real good on offense too.

I don't know those guys you listed but I like where you are coming from. Going from Rodgers to manning could be enticing for those guys. Good suggestions. Let's keep our eyes on those two for sure.

ShaneFalco
11-07-2014, 02:31 AM
I dont think Adam will leave Denver, unless promised head coach of SF or something on that tier.

He likes CO alot.

Dapper Dan
11-07-2014, 02:31 AM
I say we bring back Jim Bob Cooter.

WARHORSE
11-07-2014, 03:08 AM
We dont need a OC. Peyton is it. Use the money and buy a RT and a Center.

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 04:17 AM
Running out of the pistol everytime is pretty stupid.

Why?

Dapper Dan
11-07-2014, 04:33 AM
Why?

Didn't our run game improve when we started the pistol?

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 04:39 AM
Didn't our run game improve when we started the pistol?

Yes.

Nomad
11-07-2014, 08:47 AM
This is like watching Apollo beat up Rocky:lol: UR should change his name to the Italian Stallion:D

CoachChaz
11-07-2014, 11:22 AM
A simple question has turned this thread into a complete bitchfest. I am sometimes amazed at what people will find to complain or ridicule people about on here...but I guess I shouldnt be. It's like listening to a bunch of grumpy old men with reading comprehension problems most times.

That being said...I'll play along.

In the event Gase were to take a HC job somewhere else...as he could have this past year and could very well again this coming year...who would I like to see as the next OC? Well...the simple answer is it will probably be someone that PM approves of...assuming PM is still here. (does he retire? who knows) So...that leaves out current OC's and at the NFL level and leaves us with QB coaches/offensive quality guys. Bill Musgrave, Clyde Christensen, Alex Van Pelt would be some interesting names outside the organization (if available). Internally, I dont know that anyone would be ready.

BroncoJoe
11-07-2014, 11:37 AM
Coach, you're as grumpy as any of us!

SR
11-07-2014, 11:39 AM
We dont need a OC. Peyton is it. Use the money and buy a RT and a Center.

This makes no sense at all. Coaching staff doesn't count against the cap.

CoachChaz
11-07-2014, 12:07 PM
Coach, you're as grumpy as any of us!

I blame it on the environment. It's almost impossible to go into a thread anymore without someone getting sand in their clit...and then it turns into a bunch of whining and bickering.

Just my observation.

LawDog
11-07-2014, 01:15 PM
Step 1: Convince Gase to stay on one more year.
Step 2: Hire a newly retired Peyton Manning to be our OC.
Step 3: Polish the four Lombardi's in the lobby.

underrated29
11-07-2014, 01:35 PM
Trying to keep this in order:


1. As a replacment for Harbough in SFO makes great sense for Gase. A mobile QB (he worked with Tebow) a solid team and good defense. Not a lot of turmoil or turnover or a mess with GMs etc. Great fit for him. I could see him being a candidate there.

2. We have run out of the pistol since last year. Practically all this year, MO. It is not some brand new thing we installed 3 weeks ago.

3. I am with you there Coach, I am not terribly fond of any of our Internal People to fulfill Gase's shoes. Granted I do not know much about any of them aside from Studesville and Magzu, but even with those two I am not sure what background they have in play calling etc. I would be in favor of looking outside our organization.

4. Do they typically hire college OCs or whatnot to be OCs in the NFL? If so, perhaps there might be a few good prospects looking to make the jump from college to pros who could potentially be a good replacement. I am sure, 100% positive, that whoever we bring in will need to run Mannings system and be ok with that.

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 01:35 PM
Didn't our run game improve when we started the pistol?

Yes, but ignore the results. It's just a stupid formation.

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 02:01 PM
I'm well aware of what the pistol is and when we began using it. You didn't answer the question.

underrated29
11-07-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm well aware of what the pistol is and when we began using it. You didn't answer the question.



Danny said isnt that when the run game began to improve, when we used the pistol. You said yes.

I did answer with we ran the pistol all last year and this year. It is nothing new.



So you are aware that either you incorrectly answered dannys question or incorrectly read what I typed.

underrated29
11-07-2014, 02:23 PM
Yes, but ignore the results. It's just a stupid formation.



As is ignoring what people write.

Seems to be a theme lately around here. Ignore what people say, make up info, and then try and go off of that.

SR
11-07-2014, 02:26 PM
Danny said isnt that when the run game began to improve, when we used the pistol. You said yes. I did answer with we ran the pistol all last year and this year. It is nothing new. So you are aware that either you incorrectly answered dannys question or incorrectly read what I typed.

Okay Joel

NightTerror218
11-07-2014, 02:29 PM
IMO coaching staff is under achieving with their roster. Couple HOF and many pro bowlers. But no discipline, so many flags. ST is a mess. Defense no playing to potential. Offense under achieving compared to last season. Decker, Moreno and beadles make much of a difference?

underrated29
11-07-2014, 02:32 PM
Okay Joel




Show me where I am wrong

SR
11-07-2014, 02:38 PM
IMO coaching staff is under achieving with their roster. Couple HOF and many pro bowlers. But no discipline, so many flags. ST is a mess. Defense no playing to potential. Offense under achieving compared to last season. Decker, Moreno and beadles make much of a difference?

Moreno, yes. Beadles, yes. Decker obviously not.

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 02:43 PM
Danny said isnt that when the run game began to improve, when we used the pistol. You said yes.

I did answer with we ran the pistol all last year and this year. It is nothing new.



So you are aware that either you incorrectly answered dannys question or incorrectly read what I typed.

I'm not reading anything incorrectly.


Running out of the pistol everytime is pretty stupid.

Why?

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 03:19 PM
IMO coaching staff is under achieving with their roster. Couple HOF and many pro bowlers. But no discipline, so many flags. ST is a mess. Defense no playing to potential. Offense under achieving compared to last season. Decker, Moreno and beadles make much of a difference?

Manning isn't the same. Coaching is the blame for that as well?

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 03:25 PM
Moreno, yes. Beadles, yes. Decker obviously not.

Well. Yes and no. How many TDs has Emanual hauled in compared to what Decker was?

SR
11-07-2014, 03:38 PM
Manning isn't the same. Coaching is the blame for that as well?

Manning isn't the same? He's looked pretty ******* good this year

SR
11-07-2014, 03:39 PM
Well. Yes and no. How many TDs has Emanual hauled in compared to what Decker was?

Irrelevant

underrated29
11-07-2014, 03:42 PM
I'm not reading anything incorrectly.



Why?




Then it was your response I thought was pertaining to Danys question about the run game only improving because we ran out of pistol. My bad for mixing it up.


As for why?
Its a slower developing play and our RB basically has to run 10 yards just to get to the LOS. We are getting blown off blocks as is, asking the OL to block and maintain said blocks for our RB to run 10 yards back to LOS and avoid getting hit is silly. Most all of our runs are from shotgun type formations. We have run very few times from under center. When we run from shotgun it is usually an outside run/trap or a draw. Rarely do we plow the road if you will and run straight at them. So, once again, majority of our runs are out of pistol.

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 04:00 PM
Then it was your response I thought was pertaining to Danys question about the run game only improving because we ran out of pistol. My bad for mixing it up.


As for why?
Its a slower developing play and our RB basically has to run 10 yards just to get to the LOS. We are getting blown off blocks as is, asking the OL to block and maintain said blocks for our RB to run 10 yards back to LOS and avoid getting hit is silly. Most all of our runs are from shotgun type formations. We have run very few times from under center. When we run from shotgun it is usually an outside run/trap or a draw. Rarely do we plow the road if you will and run straight at them. So, once again, majority of our runs are out of pistol.

Do you have any numbers to back up that running plays with the quarterback starting under center are better than when a quarterback is not?

Because everything I've ever seen suggests that the quarterback under center has very little to do with the success of a running game, I'd like to see something that counters that thats concrete.

underrated29
11-07-2014, 04:31 PM
Do you have any numbers to back up that running plays with the quarterback starting under center are better than when a quarterback is not?

Because everything I've ever seen suggests that the quarterback under center has very little to do with the success of a running game, I'd like to see something that counters that thats concrete.



I suppose we could find something concrete but I do not have the time to do so at work. I would argue differently, but its hard to say. We would also have to figure out the exact parameters. Is it just Broncos we are looking at? Because we have hardly run from under center since we had manning (first year with mgcahee we did I think). So that would be a hard case. Or are we going to compare to other teams? And what is the timeline of such an episode. Naturally the game has progressed from running to passing. Using Elway team vs this is an example of why we that would need to be known as obvioulsy that would support running from under center. However, that then raises the argument to keep as many things static we would then need to go back and look at Manning as a Colt. But we know that time was a different era.


Any ideas as to how we could narrow down the results to obtain something concrete? For now, all I have is near all of our games on DVR since Tebow took over. Thats a lot of watching. Even if we were to compare it between last year and this...? What do you think?

jhildebrand
11-07-2014, 04:35 PM
Anything short of a Super Bowl win and the Broncos should move Gase to HC.

MOtorboat
11-07-2014, 04:38 PM
I suppose we could find something concrete but I do not have the time to do so at work. I would argue differently, but its hard to say. We would also have to figure out the exact parameters. Is it just Broncos we are looking at? Because we have hardly run from under center since we had manning (first year with mgcahee we did I think). So that would be a hard case. Or are we going to compare to other teams? And what is the timeline of such an episode. Naturally the game has progressed from running to passing. Using Elway team vs this is an example of why we that would need to be known as obvioulsy that would support running from under center. However, that then raises the argument to keep as many things static we would then need to go back and look at Manning as a Colt. But we know that time was a different era.


Any ideas as to how we could narrow down the results to obtain something concrete? For now, all I have is near all of our games on DVR since Tebow took over. Thats a lot of watching. Even if we were to compare it between last year and this...? What do you think?

You'd have to go physically look at every play, because the NFL just calls it shotgun. I'm just curious because the coach who developed the pistol in college repeatedly led, or was top 5, in rushing in the entire country every season at Nevada.

underrated29
11-07-2014, 05:05 PM
You'd have to go physically look at every play, because the NFL just calls it shotgun. I'm just curious because the coach who developed the pistol in college repeatedly led, or was top 5, in rushing in the entire country every season at Nevada.



oh boy.
And that is something I would have no idea about because I do not pay any attention to anything college football.

Off the top of my head I had thought that the pistol was tried in the NFL and was more or less a failure now (similar to the wildcat) as teams figured it out pretty effectively, which is why few teams (do any besides us?) run it.

I have my surgery monday and I am planning to take off work tuesday and maybe wednesday. Depending on how I feel and how lucid I am I will give it a go and see how many games I can get thru and document each run. However, I have never had surgery before and I do not ever take medication or anything so I usually suffer potent effects, and could quite possibly be out of my mind (insert jokes here). I will use Tebow and this year as outliers. Giving us two seasons to focus and compare. Mcgahee year (with mccoy) will be the first, Knowshon and last year (gase) will be the 2nd.

Seems about the fairest way even though different OCs to compare. Agreed?

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 05:14 PM
Manning isn't the same? He's looked pretty ******* good this year

Not NEARLY as sharp as he was last year, though. I'm comparing Manning to Manning... not Manning to any other QB. So I'm not saying Manning is playing "badly"...I'm saying that compared to Manning, he's been off.

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 05:17 PM
Anything short of a Super Bowl win and the Broncos should move Gase to HC.

Why? Hasn't the great Belicheck lost two to Eli, now? Hasn't won a single SB since 2004, a decade now, right? But he DID have the most prolific and NFL record of 18 wins in a single season..failing to win the Super Bowl. How many times have we failed to go to, and win, in the playoffs since Fox has been here?

SR
11-07-2014, 05:17 PM
Anything short of a Super Bowl win and the Broncos should move Gase to HC.

No.

SR
11-07-2014, 05:18 PM
Not NEARLY as sharp as he was last year, though. I'm comparing Manning to Manning... not Manning to any other QB. So I'm not saying Manning is playing "badly"...I'm saying that compared to Manning, he's been off.

I disagree.

Ravage!!!
11-07-2014, 05:18 PM
I disagree.

ok..

Valar Morghulis
11-07-2014, 05:26 PM
Manning is still Manning - did you see the 49ers game?

He is still on pace for nearly 50TDs and about 5000yds - he is not "off" - to best last year was always going to be impossible.

BroncoWave
11-07-2014, 05:31 PM
Yes, but ignore the results. It's just a stupid formation.

You literally told me yesterday (and say all the time) that I'm not allowed to use results on the field to validate an opinion. But it's ok for you, right?

BroncoWave
11-07-2014, 05:34 PM
I disagree.

Rav has been on a huge "Manning is off" kick this year. I don't get it at all. I'd point out his stats but that's invalid in Ravage-land.

Hawgdriver
11-07-2014, 06:56 PM
I'd like to see PFM in that role. /thread?

Valar Morghulis
11-07-2014, 07:22 PM
I'd like to see PFM in that role. /thread?

The Titans offered him a job for life when they were trying to lure him - i would love him to stay in Denver, but i doubt he does.

SR
11-07-2014, 07:29 PM
The Titans offered him a job for life when they were trying to lure him - i would love him to stay in Denver, but i doubt he does.

My guess is once Peyton retires leaves football entirely.

Nomad
11-07-2014, 07:43 PM
Not NEARLY as sharp as he was last year, though. I'm comparing Manning to Manning... not Manning to any other QB. So I'm not saying Manning is playing "badly"...I'm saying that compared to Manning, he's been off.

How dare you question Manning?!!!:lol:

NightTerror218
11-07-2014, 07:58 PM
Manning may be different because he does not have much of a running game at all. Moreno was 1000 yrd rusher and great on screens, 550 yards. That production is missed.

Slick
11-07-2014, 08:02 PM
Manning may be different because he does not have much of a running game at all. Moreno was 1000 yrd rusher and great on screens, 550 yards. That production is missed.

He really is. Moreno played great last year. The numbers you mentioned and his blitz pickup and pass pro was on point too.

Simple Jaded
11-07-2014, 10:52 PM
Unfortunately I think Gregg Knapp is next in line. Yea!

CrazyHorse
11-07-2014, 11:02 PM
Fire Fox! Promote Gase to HC!

underrated29
11-08-2014, 12:50 AM
Unfortunately I think Gregg Knapp is next in line. Yea!

Interesting.



Fire Fox! Promote Gase to HC!


Please no. Unless you are being sarcastic and I missed it. Then jokes on me

dogfish
11-08-2014, 01:11 AM
Unfortunately I think Gregg Knapp is next in line. Yea!

dear god no. . . absent hard evidence, i refuse to believe that kind of trainwreck could happen on an elway-led team. . .

MOtorboat
11-08-2014, 04:28 AM
In the first three games of the season, Denver had ran it zero times from the pistol.

Denver did have 23 rushes for 121 yards out of the shotgun. An average of 5.26 YPC.

Denver had 40 rushes for 106 yards from under center. An average of 2.65.

While it's only the first three games, I think we can clearly see that the argument that you can't run out of the shotgun/pistol as effectively as you can under center is bullshit.

Just to dissuade any down and distance arguments: in the first three games, the Broncos ran it from under center with the average down of 1.57 with 7.43 yards to go vs. an average down of 1.73 with 8.55 to go for the shotgun.

As I research this more thoroughly, it becomes clearer that the formation does not hinder the run game, and the idea that the running back has to run further (as espoused earlier) is, quite basically, incorrect.

Ravage!!!
11-08-2014, 11:37 AM
You literally told me yesterday (and say all the time) that I'm not allowed to use results on the field to validate an opinion. But it's ok for you, right?

Wow.. you REALLY have a hard time undesrtanding a topic about opinions, don't you? I didn't say that you don't have a right to use anything to form your opinion. We really need to sit you down with a tutor on this subject some day.

Ravage!!!
11-08-2014, 11:38 AM
Rav has been on a huge "Manning is off" kick this year. I don't get it at all. I'd point out his stats but that's invalid in Ravage-land.

You don't have to agree at all. I know there are others that agree. SOmetimes the eye tests really is ok to use to form OPINIONs. I know this is hard for you to understand since you don't really undestand the subject very well...but STATS won't "prove" an opinion wrong. I know I know.. you don't get that concept, but its true.

Joel
11-08-2014, 05:12 PM
How 'bout we bring back Dennison? If anyone can whip our line into shape, it's him, and following Kubiak to Baltimore meant he took a demotion right along with him. As a LB on Elways SB-losing teams, an excellent Broncos offensive line coach until Kubiaks departure for Houston got him promoted to OC, and now QBs coach in Baltimore, a few more years as Broncos OC might even make him a good choice to succeed Fox when HIS contract ends (or is terminated, and if all the HoFers and Pro Bowlers we annually assemble don't win the Big One soon, Foxs days are likely numbered.)

SR
11-08-2014, 05:15 PM
No.

Nomad
11-08-2014, 05:27 PM
We could bring in Josh McDaniels:bandit:

Valar Morghulis
11-08-2014, 05:41 PM
We could bring in Josh McDaniels:bandit:

I really wish I said that. You win this thread.

BroncoWave
11-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Peyton Manning is on pace to have 5100 passing yards, which would be the second most in his career. On pace for 48 TD, would be 3rd best mark of his career. He's completed 67.3% of his passes, which would be the 4th best mark of his career. He is also averaging 7.8 yards per attempt, which would be good for the 3rd best of his career.

But yeah, clearly he is just "off" this season and just not the same player he used to be.

MOtorboat
11-08-2014, 05:42 PM
Peyton Manning is on pace to have 5100 passing yards, which would be the second most in his career. On pace for 48 TD, would be 3rd best mark of his career. He's completed 67.3% of his passes, which would be the 4th best mark of his career. He is also averaging 7.8 yards per attempt, which would be good for the 3rd best of his career.

But yeah, clearly he is just "off" this season and just not the same player he used to be.

Don't forget that Joel wants the offensive line benched.

Joel
11-08-2014, 08:06 PM
Don't forget that Joel wants the offensive line benched.
Yet that's a wholly separate conversation; if I want to get involved in Wave and Ravs discussion, rest assured I'll do so without being volunteered. ;)

Simple Jaded
11-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Yeah Mo let it go, Joel's already cornered the market on random, off-topic and passive aggressive shots at the OL.

underrated29
01-01-2015, 09:10 PM
Bump.


Maybe we'll get more serious answers this time.

spikerman
01-01-2015, 09:42 PM
Dennison?

Denver Native (Carol)
01-01-2015, 09:56 PM
Dennison?

Might not be a bad idea. I had no clue he was also at Baltimore as their QB coach.

underrated29
01-01-2015, 10:14 PM
Not sure how I feel about dennison. I'll get flamed but I'd love Shanny here as OC. I like dogs idea about GB. I liked the nears offense quite a bit last year and this year. Trestman could be an option but I don't know much about him

spikerman
01-01-2015, 10:33 PM
I don't think Shanny would ever take a position under another coach now.

Simple Jaded
01-01-2015, 10:43 PM
Why Dennison? I don't remember him being much better than Knapp.

spikerman
01-01-2015, 10:59 PM
Why Dennison? I don't remember him being much better than Knapp.

I just think he'd add some much needed toughness to the offense. Of course, I'm still open to waiting to see if Gase actually leaves and who is available to replace him.

Simple Jaded
01-01-2015, 11:08 PM
I just think he'd add some much needed toughness to the offense. Of course, I'm still open to waiting to see if Gase actually leaves and who is available to replace him.

Maybe.

He'd likely want to go to a Zone blocking scheme though, and with those Godawful 285lb lineman, Shanatan/Kubiak/Dennison's version of the ZBS hasn't been physical enough since the SB years.

I think if Gase is patient he could have this team when all is said and done.

TXBRONC
01-01-2015, 11:25 PM
I'm happy with Gase to be honest, he's a smart guy and would love for him to stay in Denver for as long as possible. With that being said, if he did leave, I would love to see Kyle Shanahan here teaching Oz.

Denver has 25 wins against 7 loses in the regular sesason with Gase as the offensive coordinator.

Joel
01-02-2015, 04:19 PM
Why Dennison? I don't remember him being much better than Knapp.
He made Houstons offense lethal DESPITE an awful QB (whom he didn't sign, but well compensated for a long time) unless one thinks that was all Kubiak. I don't like them JUST as my hometown team; under Kubiak and Dennison, their offense understandably looked a lot like our SB offenses (except with a bum QB instead of a first ballot HoFer, which proved a decisive difference.) Their line didn't get overpowered, DID get rushing yards and kept their QBs jersey clean all the while (making his awful play that much more egregious: He wasn't forced into bad decisions; he just makes bad decisions.)

On top of all that, his offensive coaching experience combined with his defensive player experience on Broncos SB teams is a good resume for Foxs successor (whose day I still feel imminent.)

Simple Jaded
01-04-2015, 12:54 AM
Dennison made Texans offense lethal? Shit I don't even remember him calling plays.

MOtorboat
01-04-2015, 02:35 AM
Dennison made Texans offense lethal? Shit I don't even remember him calling plays.

The guy who hates Denver's offense with Manning, especially the 2013 version thinks Dennison's Texans offense was lethal.

That's just special stupid right there.

Simple Jaded
01-04-2015, 03:21 AM
The guy who hates Denver's offense with Manning, especially the 2013 version thinks Dennison's Texans offense was lethal.

That's just special stupid right there.

No shit, if only that offense had Jon Kitna.

Even if it was just above average was it Dennison that made it above average? I think Joel is going out of his way to pimp a lieutenant that was once associated with a style of offense that likes. And as we all know, the only players, coaches, systems and philosophy that are worth a shit are the players/coaches/systems/philosophy he approves of.

For example, Carl Nicks and Jon Asamoah/Geoff Schwartz > Louis Vasquez and Orlando Franklin.

dogfish
01-04-2015, 07:59 AM
lol, dennison. . . the guy's an O-line coach, not a playcaller. . .

it's time to let shanahan go already, people-- he's been gone a decade!

Joel
01-04-2015, 10:43 AM
lol, dennison. . . the guy's an O-line coach, not a playcaller. . .

it's time to let shanahan go already, people-- he's been gone a decade!
No, he's a QB coach; before that, he was an OC under Kubes, before that he was demoted to O-line coach because McDumbass is an idiot prima donna, before that he was an OC under Shanny and before THAT he was an O-line coach under Shanny and Kubes. That's a nice offensive resume, and before that he was ST coach for our SB champion teams, and before that he was a LB on Reeves' 3 Broncos SB teams. So he's part of the Landry and Walsh coaching tree and has seen action all over the field (Wikipedia further notes he primarily played TE at CSU before becoming exclusively a LB in the NFL.)

We could do far worse, and (IMHO) have; for the jokers who automatically contradict anything and everything I say: Dennison never called plays as Texans and Broncos OC? What happened to "the OC handles all offensive plays and execution, so Fox is off the hook for ours being so horrible"? Offensive coordinators only singlehandely run the whole offense when it suits a contrarian argument?

MOtorboat
01-04-2015, 11:40 AM
lol, dennison. . . the guy's an O-line coach, not a playcaller. . .

it's time to let shanahan go already, people-- he's been gone a decade!

Right?

Damn.

underrated29
01-04-2015, 12:12 PM
Saw gase will (has already?) interviewed with the Falcons. I think that is a great fit for him. He could do real well there. Good qb, similar to Peyton, stud wrs.....needs defense, some OL. I think he could find a lot of success there. Buffalo, IMO that he interviewed with Saturday is not a good fit for him.

tripp
01-04-2015, 12:18 PM
Saw gase will (has already?) interviewed with the Falcons. I think that is a great fit for him. He could do real well there. Good qb, similar to Peyton, stud wrs.....needs defense, some OL. I think he could find a lot of success there. Buffalo, IMO that he interviewed with Saturday is not a good fit for him.

This is where I get confused. If I was team that needed a HC, I'd be looking for someone who knows a lot about defenses, someone who can fix the worst defense in the NFL, I don't really see how an OC will come up with the answers to fix the Defense.

underrated29
01-04-2015, 12:34 PM
This is where I get confused. If I was team that needed a HC, I'd be looking for someone who knows a lot about defenses, someone who can fix the worst defense in the NFL, I don't really see how an OC will come up with the answers to fix the Defense.




I think it was MO who made an excellent point that teams usually do opposite of what they have. So if they had an "offensive" minded coach, they tend to go more defensive and visa versa.

That holds true and would rule out gase....I think it will be Rex Ryan or the cards dc.

However, if I was gase this is the perfect fit. Gase is a smart guy too. He turned down Cleveland because they don't have a qb. It seems every head coach is tied to the success of the teams qb- whether they drafted him or not. The Falcons have that. The bills do not. And just because a guy was an O coordinator does not mean he would come in and ignore the d.


I still want to know who we will look at. I'm really really intrigued by dogfishy GB guy. I like a lot about the pack O. I would love to bring some of that here. I think our O could be better then it was two years ago, maybe

dogfish
01-04-2015, 12:39 PM
This is where I get confused. If I was team that needed a HC, I'd be looking for someone who knows a lot about defenses, someone who can fix the worst defense in the NFL, I don't really see how an OC will come up with the answers to fix the Defense.

hire a good defensive coordinator?

spikerman
01-04-2015, 01:32 PM
You guys need to lay off of Joel. I was the first one to mention Dennison. Feel free to take your vitriol out on me instead of him.

dogfish
01-04-2015, 01:50 PM
You guys need to lay off of Joel. I was the first one to mention Dennison. Feel free to take your vitriol out on me instead of him.

you suck, too, buddy. . .



:D

chazoe60
01-04-2015, 02:05 PM
You guys need to lay off of Joel. I was the first one to mention Dennison. Feel free to take your vitriol out on me instead of him.
Dammit Spike you idi................ I can't do it so I'll just not talk shit about either of you.

spikerman
01-04-2015, 02:07 PM
you suck, too, buddy. . .



:D
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that. :D

underrated29
01-04-2015, 02:30 PM
You guys need to lay off of Joel. I was the first one to mention Dennison. Feel free to take your vitriol out on me instead of him.


Poor Joel, he gets the JRwhiz treatment here. Only difference is Joel has actually been correct about a few things.


Our OLine is our weakest spot on the team.
Our play calling has been weak as well.

He has been calling for us to draft OL. Well, we wanted decastro a couple years back. We were super high on Joel bitonio this year but he went early 2nd iirc. So the FO has been looking at the same things he has. He's not right about everything but he's not wrong about everything either.

He just has a more negative view point.

EastCoastBronco
01-04-2015, 03:07 PM
I think we should get Shanny for an OC...;-)
Full Circle...

underrated29
01-04-2015, 03:19 PM
I think we should get Shanny for an OC...;-)
Full Circle...



As only an OC I'd have no problems with that. It will never ever happen but that man can scheme and gameplan. I don't want his zone scheme or anything else, just his play calling and game planning. Guy was a boss at that.

DenBronx
01-04-2015, 06:01 PM
Would love love love Shanny as an OC here! But no way that happens, he can still be a HC somewhere if he wants. Best fit for him is either SF or Chitown.

Simple Jaded
01-05-2015, 01:33 AM
Poor Joel, he gets the JRwhiz treatment here. Only difference is Joel has actually been correct about a few things.


Our OLine is our weakest spot on the team.
Our play calling has been weak as well.

He has been calling for us to draft OL. Well, we wanted decastro a couple years back. We were super high on Joel bitonio this year but he went early 2nd iirc. So the FO has been looking at the same things he has. He's not right about everything but he's not wrong about everything either.

He just has a more negative view point.
They drafted OL twice, signed an All-Pro G and extended another All-Pro LT, the FO has done exactly what he's been bitching about since the day he started bitching about it. It's like they've been reading his diary the last 3-4 years, they drafted OL, signed OL and extended their own OL. The only problem I see is that they just didn't have any use for the particular players he wants, yet he likes to pretend like Denver has neglected the OL and he's full of shit.

The OL has been inconsistent to say the least, they've struggled vs good DL's and played well vs good DL's, they have the talent to get it done.

The dude is miserable, he should be on suicide watch. . .take his shoelaces. I'd hate to see what he'd be like if this team were actually as ****** as he thinks it is.

Joel
01-05-2015, 09:24 AM
An OT who lasted to the very end of the 3rd in a draft deep in linemen plus a C at the end of the SIXTH round isn't "drafting OL twice." Have EITHER of those guys even been ACTIVE for ANY game? Because if the answer's "no," what good are they doing Mannings 2014 team playing on borrowed time? Maybe they'll be the Terrell Davis of late round linemen SOME DAY (though I strongly doubt it,) but no one expects to immediately plug huge serious holes with late round picks.

I have no beef with re-signing the only All Pro lineman we had, and loved signing another to replace Kupes when injury forced his retirement, but a) that was LAST year and b) 2 guys can't play 5 spots, even if the geniuses coaching our offense are making one try anyway; "we've FINALLY got an All Pro RG—let's move him to RT because we don't HAVE a second starting quality OT, despite drafting and signing so many there was nothing left to get a second starting quality OG either"

What about the scrubs who'd been playing LG, C and RT since McDumbass drafted them? Ramirez was somehow supposed to replace TWO of them despite replacing Kuper so badly we wound up making the guy start a whole playoff game on a detached foot, while the other moved to LG because Fox told the press Chris Clark's the NFLs best backup OT (even though everyone says decisions like that are among the many he doesn't make.) You bashed Beadles and Walton at least as much as I: Are you seriously claiming those spots are BETTER now?

Bottom line: Whether the coaches reshuffled guys who just CAN'T play or guys who can play very well but WON'T, that's on the coaches, either for choosing wrong, failure to teach execution or failure to movitate supposedly fine players to perform that execution. It's not a question of IF they dropped the ball, only HOW. All that would be true even if Franklin had done anything but commit more penalties each year of his career (at this rate, he'll be up to one/play in a few more seasons.) Chris Clark's the NFLs best backup OT; can't make up stuff that good.... :rolleyes:

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 12:19 PM
Not surprisingly, football outsiders disagrees strongly.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Joel
01-05-2015, 01:09 PM
Not surprisingly, football outsiders disagrees strongly.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

A team with a high ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a low ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its offensive line to make the running game work. A team with a low ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a high ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its running back breaking long runs to make the running game work.
Note that our Open Field Rank's 5th and our Second Level Rank 9th, but our Stuffed Rank's 12th—the same as our Adjusted Line Yards: Anderson's making our like look better than it is just as Manning does. Speaking of which, also note pass ranks are basically just sacks/att; Mannings Colts teams rarely gave up >20 sacks either, so the fact ours does the same is probably more about him than our line.

Football Outsiders' about page outright SAYS the whole site's based on The Hidden Game of Football (the most obvious example being DVOA,) and those charts at the link are basically a more detailed version of the ones at the end of Chapter 13, "Opus for the Unsung." They've read it, and so have I; if you ever do, maybe you'll understand what you don't now. But I'll give you this much: At least you don't run around saying FO invalidates its football assertions BECAUSE they read it.

NightTrainLayne
01-05-2015, 01:26 PM
Note that our Open Field Rank's 5th and our Second Level Rank 9th, but our Stuffed Rank's 12th—the same as our Adjusted Line Yards: Anderson's making our like look better than it is just as Manning does. Speaking of which, also note pass ranks are basically just sacks/att; Mannings Colts teams rarely gave up >20 sacks either, so the fact ours does the same is probably more about him than our line.

Football Outsiders' about page outright SAYS the whole site's based on The Hidden Game of Football (the most obvious example being DVOA,) and those charts at the link are basically a more detailed version of the ones at the end of Chapter 13, "Opus for the Unsung." They've read it, and so have I; if you ever do, maybe you'll understand what you don't now. But I'll give you this much: At least you don't run around saying FO invalidates its football assertions BECAUSE they read it.

I think you're really splitting hairs here Joel. Our Open Field and Adjusted yards are both good, and complementary. Yes, our Open Field is a somewhat higher ranking, than our adjusted yards ranking, which does mean that to an extent our RB's are helping our line to look better, but this is not a situation where our adjusted and open field numbers are vastly different.

Philadelphia is an example of what you are accusing the Broncos of (great open field ranking, but low adjusted yards ranking).

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 01:27 PM
Note that our Open Field Rank's 5th and our Second Level Rank 9th, but our Stuffed Rank's 12th—the same as our Adjusted Line Yards: Anderson's making our like look better than it is just as Manning does. Speaking of which, also note pass ranks are basically just sacks/att; Mannings Colts teams rarely gave up >20 sacks either, so the fact ours does the same is probably more about him than our line.

Football Outsiders' about page outright SAYS the whole site's based on The Hidden Game of Football (the most obvious example being DVOA,) and those charts at the link are basically a more detailed version of the ones at the end of Chapter 13, "Opus for the Unsung." They've read it, and so have I; if you ever do, maybe you'll understand what you don't now. But I'll give you this much: At least you don't run around saying FO invalidates its football assertions BECAUSE they read it.

So the book that makes you think you're so smart says Denver's line is a Top 10 line in the game.

Good enough for me.

Joel
01-05-2015, 03:15 PM
I think you're really splitting hairs here Joel. Our Open Field and Adjusted yards are both good, and complementary. Yes, our Open Field is a somewhat higher ranking, than our adjusted yards ranking, which does mean that to an extent our RB's are helping our line to look better, but this is not a situation where our adjusted and open field numbers are vastly different.

Philadelphia is an example of what you are accusing the Broncos of (great open field ranking, but low adjusted yards ranking).
Our Open Field AND Second Level ranks are top ten—but our Stuffed rank's NOT, so our Adjusted Line Yds aren't either. If Ball hadn't spent a couple months consistently breaking multiple backfield tackles for 2 yard gains, we'd rank much lower in stuffs, and thus much lower in Adjusted Line Yds.

Joel
01-05-2015, 03:15 PM
So the book that makes you think you're so smart says Denver's line is a Top 10 line in the game.

Good enough for me.
It's telling when people who habitually claim reading it proves me an idiot turn around and invoke its OTHER readers as a closer. It's like Islamic terorrism: "If I have to tell you one more time to adopt the way of holy peace, I'll KILL you!" When Carroll, Palmer and Thorn said "knock 15 pts off the Sack Grade because" the QB "can set up and throw faster than a whip can raise a welt; it's still a fine line," they meant Marinos, not Mannings. Alphabetically, Minnesota was next, also rated for each of their '84-'86 seasons, with the comment "only so-so in '86, but [rookie OT Gary] Zimmerman showed he is a comer."

One can't declare the SAME book idiocy AND genius based solely on WHOM cites it and/or WHAT they conclude; that's cherry-picking that doesn't just move the goal posts, but INVERTS them. Like, if a TD pass was worth 7 AND -7 pts depending on whether Manning or Brady threw it. That kind of logic doesn't prove anything except whether one's a diehard Broncos or Patriots fan. If I'm a moron for saying the line sucks, what's All Pro SB Champ lineman Mark Schlereth for saying we should fire them all and start over from scratch? No Real Bronco?

Or, since this is a thread about next years OC, what's Gase for telling Simms we lost the SB because we had no run threat, or Gase AND Fox for shuffling our line so many times Clady's the ONLY one playing the same place as last year? Our coaches obviously (if belatedly) SEE the problem as well as I, Schlereth, tons of other former Broncos, analysts—pretty much EVERYONE but our terminal Kool-Aid addicts. Sadly, they just as obviously have no clue how to fix it, so just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic while band plays on trying to "drown" out reality.

underrated29
01-05-2015, 03:29 PM
Are you guys really trying to argue that our OL as it is now is ok enough for you?

After all the blowing up the OL has had. After all the Comments by writers, Current coaches of the broncos, former players and fans about how they suck and need to get their act together. After the team worked out and seriously considered bringing in head case Richie Incognito. After moving player on the Oline to several different position and benching other starters. After all of that..........are you really going to say you are OK with the Oline? Youre really going to argue this?


Also, on a side note- has no one posted the PFF individual grades of our Oline people? I do not see them here. But I have seen them. Only 1 player on the Oline had a positive grade IIRC. One single player for the year end review. And I doubt it is who you think it is. So 4/5 starters finished the year, with NEGATIVE rankings. But its ok, because our OL is actually really good....????

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 03:29 PM
It's telling when people who habitually claim reading it proves me an idiot turn around and invoke its OTHER readers as a closer. It's like Islamic terorrism: "If I have to tell you one more time to adopt the way of holy peace, I'll KILL you!" When Carroll, Palmer and Thorn said "knock 15 pts off the Sack Grade because" the QB "can set up and throw faster than a whip can raise a welt; it's still a fine line," they meant Marinos, not Mannings. Alphabetically, Minnesota was next, also rated for each of their '84-'86 seasons, with the comment "only so-so in '86, but [rookie OT Gary] Zimmerman showed he is a comer."

One can't declare the SAME book idiocy AND genius based solely on WHOM cites it and/or WHAT they conclude; that's cherry-picking that doesn't just move the goal posts, but INVERTS them.

I don't know what the **** your talking about, as usual. I look at football outsiders quite a bit, especially after you go on your spam tirades. You are right about one thing. I didn't read the damn book that makes you think your smarter than me, but if someone calls you an idiot because of how much you quote it, it sure as hell wasn't me.


Like, if a TD pass was worth 7 AND -7 pts depending on whether Manning or Brady threw it. That kind of logic doesn't prove anything except whether one's a diehard Broncos or Patriots fan.

What?


If I'm a moron for saying the line sucks, what's All Pro SB Champ lineman Mark Schlereth for saying we should fire them all and start over from scratch? No Real Bronco?

A blowhard. Just like he always is. I bet you wouldn't like his take on Tebow. Congratulations, you found someone who agrees with you.


Or, since this is a thread about next years OC, what's Gase for telling Simms we lost the SB because we had no run threat, or Gase AND Fox for shuffling our line so many times Clady's the ONLY one playing the same place as last year? Our coaches obviously (if belatedly) SEE the problem as well as I, Schlereth, tons of other former Broncos, analysts—pretty much EVERYONE but our terminal Kool-Aid addicts. Sadly, they just as obviously have no clue how to fix it, so just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic while band plays on trying to "drown" out reality.

The Broncos have done every single thing you wanted them to do. Every single one. Draft lineman high, sign a free agent guard, move the tackle you wanted to move to guard to guard. Every single thing you've wanted them to do, they've done.

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 03:31 PM
Are you guys really trying to argue that our OL as it is now is ok enough for you?

After all the blowing up the OL has had. After all the Comments by writers, Current coaches of the broncos, former players and fans about how they suck and need to get their act together. After the team worked out and seriously considered bringing in head case Richie Incognito. After moving player on the Oline to several different position and benching other starters. After all of that..........are you really going to say you are OK with the Oline? Youre really going to argue this?


Also, on a side note- has no one posted the PFF individual grades of our Oline people? I do not see them here. But I have seen them. Only 1 player on the Oline had a positive grade IIRC. One single player for the year end review. And I doubt it is who you think it is. So 4/5 starters finished the year, with NEGATIVE rankings. But its ok, because our OL is actually really good....????

Yeah. It's Franklin.

Joel
01-05-2015, 03:58 PM
What linemen did we "draft high," Clady? The NEXT TO LAST pick of the THIRD round in a draft thick with linemen isn't "high" for an OT, and the next to last pick of the SIXTH round isn't high for ANYTHING. And I didn't "want" to move Franklin to G: We lost a LG that was (somehow) starting, then REFUSED to sign any of the many great FAs available OR draft one "high" in draft full of great ones, and Franklin's been a bust at OT, so moving his strong straight-ahead push (his SOLE asset) to G was the only viable option LEFT to us, with the added bonus that it could salvage what WAS a highly drafted lineman.

If the Broncos had "done every single thing you wanted them to do," Franklin would be on the bench, Vasquez would be where he was an All Pro, and we'd have a LEGIT LG and RT instead of what we've got. Same old hear/see what's preferable schtick here; Schlereth's a "blowhard" when commenting on the position where he WON THREE SBs, but a genius when bashing Tebow. He's brilliant when he agrees with you and an idiot when he doesn't—just like THGoF, FO and everyone else. ;)

chazoe60
01-05-2015, 04:07 PM
Drafting 2 Offensive Linemen isn't drafting OL twice? I'm confused by that statement.

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 04:17 PM
What linemen did we "draft high," Clady? The NEXT TO LAST pick of the THIRD round in a draft thick with linemen isn't "high" for an OT, and the next to last pick of the SIXTH round isn't high for ANYTHING. And I didn't "want" to move Franklin to G: We lost a LG that was (somehow) starting, then REFUSED to sign any of the many great FAs available OR draft one "high" in draft full of great ones, and Franklin's been a bust at OT, so moving his strong straight-ahead push (his SOLE asset) to G was the only viable option LEFT to us, with the added bonus that it could salvage what WAS a highly drafted lineman.

If the Broncos had "done every single thing you wanted them to do," Franklin would be on the bench, Vasquez would be where he was an All Pro, and we'd have a LEGIT LG and RT instead of what we've got. Same old hear/see what's preferable schtick here; Schlereth's a "blowhard" when commenting on the position where he WON THREE SBs, but a genius when bashing Tebow. He's brilliant when he agrees with you and an idiot when he doesn't—just like THGoF, FO and everyone else. ;)

Knocking down some straw men today.

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 04:21 PM
Drafting 2 Offensive Linemen isn't drafting OL twice? I'm confused by that statement.

Denver drafted a franchise tackle in the first round and an offensive tackle who should still be a tackle in the second. It signed Vasquez to a FA contract and then tried to plug holes. The mistake was moving Franklin away from a position where he was above replacement. Now, metrics says he's above replacement at guard, too. But don't tell that to Joel, because he saw a penalty once just like he judged Franklin off of four plays last year.

The offensive line could be better, but it could be far worse, and it's certainly not as bad as Joel wants it to be. Nor does it deserve as much vitriol and spam as he's offered to this board.

silkamilkamonico
01-05-2015, 04:24 PM
Are you guys really trying to argue that our OL as it is now is ok enough for you?

After all the blowing up the OL has had. After all the Comments by writers, Current coaches of the broncos, former players and fans about how they suck and need to get their act together. After the team worked out and seriously considered bringing in head case Richie Incognito. After moving player on the Oline to several different position and benching other starters. After all of that..........are you really going to say you are OK with the Oline? Youre really going to argue this?


Also, on a side note- has no one posted the PFF individual grades of our Oline people? I do not see them here. But I have seen them. Only 1 player on the Oline had a positive grade IIRC. One single player for the year end review. And I doubt it is who you think it is. So 4/5 starters finished the year, with NEGATIVE rankings. But its ok, because our OL is actually really good....????

The oline would have been very good all year if the damn coaching staff didn't get stupid and move Franklin from RT to LG. Imagine last years's oline and Montgomery instead of Ramirez. F'n salty.

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 04:26 PM
And this will blow Joel's mind. The Broncos team that won the second Super Bowl. The best team in the history of this franchise and one of the most dominant teams the NFL has ever had, had an undrafted player at LT, a seventh rounder at RT, a third rounder, a 10th rounder and a 7th rounder on the interior.

Drafting offensive lineman high doesn't equal success. The guards he wanted in this draft started something like a combined four games this whole season. Instant impact players, the lot of them.

Joel
01-05-2015, 04:42 PM
Drafting 2 Offensive Linemen isn't drafting OL twice? I'm confused by that statement.
HIGH, the phrase was "drafted high." An OT with the 31st pick of the 3rd round? In a deep line draft and a passing league where any halfway decent OT's worth his weight in gold? That's practically a FOURTH round pick, and any OT taken that late is an almost guaranteed benchwarmer his first two years in ANY draft, let alone a lineman-loaded class like last years. Again: Has Schofield EVER been active this year? We shuffled THREE guys through RT once Clark proved he wasn't "the best backup OT" Fox claimed and Cornick proved no better, finally deciding to give up an All Pro RG just to lock it down.

We never even tried Schofield though; why is that? Not because we spent the 3rd rounds penultimate pick on an OT expecting him to make the difference between the 2013 runners up and 2014 champions. And the penultimate pick of the SIXTH round for a C on the PS? Again: We've had two different centers in the lineup this year, but Paradis never even had the CHANCE to be among them.

That stuff's not "addressing need," but "taking a flyer." Maybe it'll pay off eventually, but not far too late to solve the crippling line holes our coaching staff publicly admitted but brazenly ignored last offseason. And extending Clady while signing Vasquez in 2013 certainly wasn't an attempt to solve the fatal flaws of the 2013 season; that's just revisionist history. We knew THOSE two were studs last offseason, but also knew they had three stiffs alongside them, and still did nothing about it.

Montgomery was a (far) better effort; he may be a journeyman, but at least has starting experience and is starting now, not sitting on our PS hoping he can make NEXT years team.


And this will blow Joel's mind. The Broncos team that won the second Super Bowl. The best team in the history of this franchise and one of the most dominant teams the NFL has ever had, had an undrafted player at LT, a seventh rounder at RT, a third rounder, a 10th rounder and a 7th rounder on the interior.

Drafting offensive lineman high doesn't equal success. The guards he wanted in this draft started something like a combined four games this whole season. Instant impact players, the lot of them.
The difference is Tony Jones and Mark Schlereth were ALREADY veteran starters of proven ability; they weren't rookies we drafted low and rode to a SB as "instant impact players." In fact, Tony Jones only started 3 games his first TWO seasons, and Schlereth only managed a little more (13, almost half the games he was on the roster.) Like I say, Schofield and/or Paradis might well be HoF players—EVENTUALLY; they certainly aren't making an "instant impact" on our PS, and an instant impact is what we desperately need at LG, C and RT.

That's not just me; all OUR COACHES have repeateadly and publicly said it, so has pretty much everyone who's ever PLAYED for the Broncos and so are most analysts. But arguing with them's a lot harder than the "I'm so much smarter than this idiotic other internet analyst" debate, so here we are.

underrated29
01-05-2015, 06:07 PM
Yeah. It's Franklin.




Yes sir. Franklin it is. Now about the rest of the post or line? Do you think OL is fine? Do you think it is our biggest weakness on the Team? I do not see how anyone can think it is not. Especially when they take into account everything I had listed.

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 06:19 PM
Yes sir. Franklin it is. Now about the rest of the post or line? Do you think OL is fine? Do you think it is our biggest weakness on the Team? I do not see how anyone can think it is not. Especially when they take into account everything I had listed.

Running back and linebacker also have issues. Do I think it's "fine?" That's a complicated thing to answer with language like that (plus there's not a damn thing the team can do about it now, so all the hours spent whining about it is kind of getting old). But with All-Pro talent at WR, DL, QB and secondary and two offensive line positions, there's going to be a category where the team isn't as good. It's been the same with every good team since the advent of free agency and the salary cap. Now, I'm fine with it being some of the offensive line and running back. This is a team that earned a bye in the playoffs with one of the least-sacked quarterbacks in the NFL. It's doing just "fine" for itself.

underrated29
01-05-2015, 07:07 PM
Running back and linebacker also have issues. Do I think it's "fine?" That's a complicated thing to answer with language like that (plus there's not a damn thing the team can do about it now, so all the hours spent whining about it is kind of getting old). But with All-Pro talent at WR, DL, QB and secondary and two offensive line positions, there's going to be a category where the team isn't as good. It's been the same with every good team since the advent of free agency and the salary cap. Now, I'm fine with it being some of the offensive line and running back. This is a team that earned a bye in the playoffs with one of the least-sacked quarterbacks in the NFL. It's doing just "fine" for itself.


This feels like an answer a coach would give on NFL Network when asked about how they are going to draft.

To hit on your post, I do not see RB as an issue. LB at Mike I would like better there but Irving made some big ass strides this year for me. I honestly feel (ignoring the OL for a minute) that S, FS in particular is our biggest need. Followed by TE.

Everyteam is bound to have some holes in it. We know this. Provided we can sign a couple middle tier FA (on OL or TE) and draft some DL (at least 2 picks imo) and S (also 2 picks) and spend another on TE, we would still (with comps added) have a few other positions to add depth. That will not cure all our needs but if we can keep DT, Knighton, dump welker (and his 10 mil) and Julius (unless he takes a modest salary) we should have plenty of resources to make next years team even better than this one (sounds hard to believe but i believe it)

MOtorboat
01-05-2015, 07:13 PM
This feels like an answer a coach would give on NFL Network when asked about how they are going to draft.

To hit on your post, I do not see RB as an issue. LB at Mike I would like better there but Irving made some big ass strides this year for me. I honestly feel (ignoring the OL for a minute) that S, FS in particular is our biggest need. Followed by TE.

Everyteam is bound to have some holes in it. We know this. Provided we can sign a couple middle tier FA (on OL or TE) and draft some DL (at least 2 picks imo) and S (also 2 picks) and spend another on TE, we would still (with comps added) have a few other positions to add depth. That will not cure all our needs but if we can keep DT, Knighton, dump welker (and his 10 mil) and Julius (unless he takes a modest salary) we should have plenty of resources to make next years team even better than this one (sounds hard to believe but i believe it)

I'm not trying to sidestep the question, but it's not answerable in terms of "is it fine or is it not fine?"

Ryan Clady is a top LT, Vasquez is a top RG. Vasquez needs to be moved back to guard next season. There's no doubt that hole is at RT. Moving Franklin was a catastrophe to the right tackle position (not the guard position as some think). They do need one lineman, and that's the problem that needs to be addressed. One guy. Either a LG or a RT.

They certainly don't all need to be "fired."

underrated29
01-05-2015, 08:56 PM
I'm not trying to sidestep the question, but it's not answerable in terms of "is it fine or is it not fine?"

Ryan Clady is a top LT, Vasquez is a top RG. Vasquez needs to be moved back to guard next season. There's no doubt that hole is at RT. Moving Franklin was a catastrophe to the right tackle position (not the guard position as some think). They do need one lineman, and that's the problem that needs to be addressed. One guy. Either a LG or a RT.

They certainly don't all need to be "fired."



Yes

Joel
01-06-2015, 03:23 PM
The oline would have been very good all year if the damn coaching staff didn't get stupid and move Franklin from RT to LG. Imagine last years's oline and Montgomery instead of Ramirez. F'n salty.
So who plays LG—the primary PULLING guard? Do we stick in the project converted DT who's spent most of his career on active Air Force duty and ridden our bench ever since? Bad as Ramirez is, there's NO way to get him out of the starting lineup without signing a LEGIT guard; how does that translate into "very good if they hadn't moved the bust RT?"


Ryan Clady is a top LT, Vasquez is a top RG. Vasquez needs to be moved back to guard next season. There's no doubt that hole is at RT. Moving Franklin was a catastrophe to the right tackle position (not the guard position as some think). They do need one lineman, and that's the problem that needs to be addressed. One guy. Either a LG or a RT.

They certainly don't all need to be "fired."
The ONLY one of them who merits any job security's Vasquez, and even he's a lesser player away from his natural position—but we needed SOMEONE to start at RT, and had no one else despite signing OTs to the exclusion of Gs like it's going out of style (which it's not, hence we couldn't get decent ones on the cheap.)

Ramirez is Ramirez, better than his awful 2012 campaign, but still the kind of guy who only looked good at C when memories of Walton (who's not even PLAYING anymore) were fresh.

Montgomery's ldone well since becoming the latest through that revolving door, but that wasn't long ago, so it's too soon to tell and a proven starting C would be welcome (if to move Montgomery to LG.)

Franklin's still great against bull rushers but slow and clumsy against ANY speed, acceleration, agility or reflexes; there's a reason why he's committed more penalties each year of his four year career.

Finally, even Clady's a shadow of his former self since returning from last years season-ending injury—much as his whole 2011 season, fresh off a bad injury to the SAME leg. There's no guarantee a former All Pro LT with a bad wheel will ever be great again.

I know the cap and FA won't let any team be great everywhere, but, the trenches where every game's won and lost should NEVER be anyones slough stat. It may be worth blowing off the lines to get an unbroken wall of All Pro "skill" players in Madden NFL, but in the ACTUAL NFL it's suicide. Just ask the Cowboys, who rode an all time great line to 3 SBs in 4 years, lost it to retirement and FA and compensated by loading on playmakers at all the "more important" positions; what'd it get them? A decade long playoff drought.

Then they spent just two years and three first round picks rebuilding their offensive line, and suddenly they clinched a division title with a week to spare and find themselves in the second round of the playoffs. Lots of Cowboys fans probably called Aikman a "blowhard" when their HoF ex-QB commented that Detroit was dominating the line on BOTH sides of the ball at the end of the first quarter Sunday, but their denial made it no less true. Lucky for them their D kept them in it long enough for the line to show up in the fourth and help win the game.

I can only hope ours does as well, but someone needs to tell them that when practically everyone professionally associated with the Broncos or even the NFL calls them out publicly, they can't silence critics and make up for three SEASONS of bad play by simply calling a bitchy press locker room press conference and stringing together all of TWO good games before reverting to the awful norm of turning our backfield into a QB and RB pinball machine.

Manning's had <20 sacks/season pretty much his whole career, but it's somehow HIS fault he's suddenly started the Fainting Goat routine? Ya'll trying to convince us, or yourselves...?

pulse
01-06-2015, 03:36 PM
Damn, Joel....

Sometimes when you post, even I'm like...

https://i.imgur.com/tkWFRZF.gif

:D

Joel
01-06-2015, 05:22 PM
Well, I was responding to two different people on an admittedly longstanding pet issue of mine. Long as that post is, know what would've made it longer? Being TWO posts, complete with header and footer. For all the accusations of "spamming the boards," I make many long, multi-quote SINGLE posts precisely to AVOID spamming with an unbroken string of half a dozen one-liners. Much good it does me....

underrated29
01-06-2015, 05:31 PM
Screw the spamming. I spam around when I feel feisty. Cant let everyone have peace here all the time. Youre posts are long though, Ill admit. But I also dont care. It kind of reminds me of JR and his long crazy posts and they cracked me up. Especially when he would change color for each paragraph.

DenBronx
01-06-2015, 05:42 PM
Screw the spamming. I spam around when I feel feisty. Cant let everyone have peace here all the time. Youre posts are long though, Ill admit. But I also dont care. It kind of reminds me of JR and his long crazy posts and they cracked me up. Especially when he would change color for each paragraph.

Yeah or add in dollar signs for PORTI$$$$

Like Joel, he too would send me notifications all the time. Hmmmm... JRs gone but Joels here.....

MOtorboat
01-06-2015, 05:51 PM
"Ryan Clady shouldn't have job security."

-Joel

A guy who routinely gets All-Pro votes. Top flight analysis.

underrated29
01-06-2015, 05:54 PM
"Ryan Clady shouldn't have job security."

-Joel

A guy who routinely gets All-Pro votes. Top flight analysis.


Ya can't agree with that

GEM
01-06-2015, 05:57 PM
So Franklin was a bust at RT?



mmmmkay! :rolleyes:

We are a guard away from having a decent line. A guard. Not a tackle and a guard...unless Franklin leaves in FA...then we really are a tackle and a guard. You just don't have an all pro at every position, it isn't a capability you can have under a salary cap and honestly how many all pro tackles and guards are even in the league? Most are journeyman.

Joel
01-06-2015, 06:01 PM
It wasn't awful, but was by HIS standards. He got beat around the edge a LOT, sometimes by pretty average pass rushers. Same thing happened in 2011, but he was coming off a season-ending injury then, too, and bounced back with another banner year once he had a second off season to get healthy. Maybe that happens again; he's had enough stellar seasons to earn the chance even if we weren't paying through the nose for him. But I believe his lis-franc injury was to the same leg (if a different location,) and anyone who needs to know how an overpowering but immobile OT looks should watch tape of Franklin.

MOtorboat
01-06-2015, 06:07 PM
Clady's season was so bad that he only got four All-Pro votes this season.

Joel
01-06-2015, 06:08 PM
So Franklin was a bust at RT?

mmmmkay! :rolleyes:

We are a guard away from having a decent line. A guard. Not a tackle and a guard...unless Franklin leaves in FA...then we really are a tackle and a guard. You just don't have an all pro at every position, it isn't a capability you can have under a salary cap and honestly how many all pro tackles and guards are even in the league? Most are journeyman.
Last year it was a guard, tackle and center (or two guards and a tackle, if one prefers,) and all that's changed is last years starting LG left for Jax, so it's STILL a guard, tackle and center unless Montgomery proves the long term answer for the last (and a 31-year-old linemen's rarely a long term anything.) Shifting Franklin didn't fill any holes, just ROTATE two of them.

Again, I know the cap and FA don't allow 22 All Pros: But every game's won and lost in the trenches, however much cash and camera time the so-called "skill" players earn; if any unskilled idiot could start on every NFL line, Manning would be buffing his third SB Ring as we speak. We're just one INJURY from a benchwarming part time converted DT STARTING on our line: We need far more than ONE lineman. If we're so secure at RT (heaven knows we should be given how many we've piled up the past few years) why'd we move our only All Pro GUARD there? Because he's not nearly as good at it.

Joel
01-06-2015, 06:13 PM
Clady's season was so bad that he only got four All-Pro votes this season.
Wow, that's almost 12.5%, and surely none of those votes were based on his career than his season, even if they shouldn't be. If you cared what sports writers and analysts think, you'd have conceded this debate long ago; don't trot out guys you've incessantly dismissed until now. What happens on the field matters far more than what happens in the papers, and in this case they're widely divergent.

Remember the note while ago that Franklin's the only Broncos lineman PFF rated positively? I'm very dubious of PFF, and don't want to make the same mistake of selective citation, but for those who DO put stock in them: If Franklin's the only one with a passing grade, does Clady have a passing grade? Is this some new nonsingular meaning of "only"?

GEM
01-06-2015, 06:27 PM
Last year it was a guard, tackle and center (or two guards and a tackle, if one prefers,) and all that's changed is last years starting LG left for Jax, so it's STILL a guard, tackle and center unless Montgomery proves the long term answer for the last (and a 31-year-old linemen's rarely a long term anything.) Shifting Franklin didn't fill any holes, just ROTATE two of them.

Again, I know the cap and FA don't allow 22 All Pros: But every game's won and lost in the trenches, however much cash and camera time the so-called "skill" players earn; if any unskilled idiot could start on every NFL line, Manning would be buffing his third SB Ring as we speak. We're just one INJURY from a benchwarming part time converted DT STARTING on our line: We need far more than ONE lineman. If we're so secure at RT (heaven knows we should be given how many we've piled up the past few years) why'd we move our only All Pro GUARD there? Because he's not nearly as good at it.

But you don't see any value in Franklin, and frankly, I think you're wrong on his account. Manny, hell yes. Montgomery has been exactly what we needed him to be. If we have the chance to get a C, yea, but where do you get him from. Layer your needs and Franklin being replaced is not high on that list. And why? Because the coaching staff wanted our 2 beefiest lineman guarding our QB's blind side because he doesn't move around the pocket pretty much at all. They have to keep Manning upright...unfortunately, the pressure just comes in from the other side, but at least Manning sees it and can do something to protect himself. I hate having Vasquez at T, but it's been a necessity again because of Manram, not because of Franklin.

It took us over a decade to get any worthwhile Dlineman. Hell, we've been bitching about the Defensive line since right around the time you took up the Broncos. Look how long that took.

MOtorboat
01-06-2015, 06:33 PM
Wow, that's almost 12.5%, and surely none of those votes were based on his career than his season, even if they shouldn't be. If you cared what sports writers and analysts think, you'd have conceded this debate long ago; don't trot out guys you've incessantly dismissed until now. What happens on the field matters far more than what happens in the papers, and in this case they're widely divergent.

Remember the note while ago that Franklin's the only Broncos lineman PFF rated positively? I'm very dubious of PFF, and don't want to make the same mistake of selective citation, but for those who DO put stock in them: If Franklin's the only one with a passing grade, does Clady have a passing grade? Is this some new nonsingular meaning of "only"?

The offensive line isn't as bad as you want it to be. Continue to spam.

Joel
01-06-2015, 09:00 PM
But you don't see any value in Franklin, and frankly, I think you're wrong on his account. Manny, hell yes. Montgomery has been exactly what we needed him to be. If we have the chance to get a C, yea, but where do you get him from. Layer your needs and Franklin being replaced is not high on that list. And why? Because the coaching staff wanted our 2 beefiest lineman guarding our QB's blind side because he doesn't move around the pocket pretty much at all. They have to keep Manning upright...unfortunately, the pressure just comes in from the other side, but at least Manning sees it and can do something to protect himself. I hate having Vasquez at T, but it's been a necessity again because of Manram, not because of Franklin.

It took us over a decade to get any worthwhile Dlineman. Hell, we've been bitching about the Defensive line since right around the time you took up the Broncos. Look how long that took.
Protecting the blind side AND the other edge is about quickness and balance, not beef; that's why slow, clumsy but powerful Franklin and Clark suck at it. Beef's for line surge in the running game and preventing the pockets CENTER from collapsing; Manning can see that—he just not a roll out passer, so can't do much about it except throw to a hot read and hope nobody he didn't have time to see jumps the route for a pick-six. The idea was Franklins heavy feet would be less of a liability inside and his strength would be a bigger asset for line surge and maintaining pockets.

Sadly, the LG's the primary pulling guard for most teams, because the tendency is a big RG next to a RT bigger than the quick LT and a blocking TE on his other side: Pull the LG and bull doze the right side. It's about the ONLY thing Beadles did well; he provided NO surge, let DTs and LBs into the backfield a lot on runs AND passes, but, man, he could PANCAKE some poor little safety 20 yds downfield. Franklin's too slow for that, and while he can still hold up the pocket against a straight ahead rush, stunts leave him chasing his tail because he can't react fast enough.

None of that's from any book, just watching it happen weekly, and far too long. I know how long we've been screaming for "DL", because I screamed as long and loud as anyone (again, I came on board while the Broncos were crying in their beer over the '96 Jags playoff shocker, and recall Keith Traylor, Trevor Pryce and Neil Smith being GREAT defensive linemen; Maa Ican'tspellhisname was good, too.)

Again, why do we—or anyone—need good defensive linemen? Not just pass rushing DEs on the edge, but DTs who blot out the sky, making runs up the gut impossible, collapsing the pocket and demanding double teams that give those smaller faster blitzing DEs and LBs free shots at the QB? Because of great offensive linemen, and not just blindside LTs guarding the edge for more than their QBs earn, but GUARDS shoring up the middle and pushing piles across the goal line. All the stuff Jaded used to complain our ZBS was too small to do; THIS huge line should excel at it: Why DON'T they...?

Simple Jaded
01-07-2015, 01:23 AM
Joel, you keep insisting that Franklin is slow and can't pull yet when you watch the games there he is pulling and blocking down field. I've pointed this out countless times during the game in the game thread and get zero response out of you, you're worng, again.

I am thoroughly convinced that you don't even watch the games and just come around here so everyone else can share in your miserable ****** existence.

Bronco9798
01-07-2015, 02:32 PM
I want to see Kubiak as our Next OC and then slide him up to replace Fox here in a couple of years. I think Elway would trust Kubiak at the next level after Fox leaves.

Joel
01-07-2015, 06:10 PM
Joel you're an idiot, you keep insisting that Franklin is slow and can't pull yet when you watch the games there he is pulling and blocking down field. I've pointed this out countless times during the game in the game thread and get zero response out of you, you're worng, again.

I am thoroughly convinced that you don't even watch the games and just come around here so everyone else can share in your miserable ****** existence.
I remember a gameday thread where I posted about Franklin dropping my jaw by pulling to lead block for a TD near the goal line, and you "pointing it out to me" AFTERWARD, but that's not "countless times" unless you can't count past one (or are you saying you can't? ;)) How many times have I pointed out Franklin chasing his tail on stunts, letting defenders into our backfield untouched and/Or holding because he got beaten, only to hear nothing but crickets from his cheering section?

Regardless, "you're an idiot" definitely "counts" as a personal attack; more debating people instead of points.

Joel
01-07-2015, 06:12 PM
I want to see Kubiak as our Next OC and then slide him up to replace Fox here in a couple of years. I think Elway would trust Kubiak at the next level after Fox leaves.
It looks like the post-Manning Broncos will be a defensive team; I wouldn't mind Kubiak as our OC, then HC (just the opposite) but think Del Rio fits the direction we're moving much better. On the other hand, in the current style of teams building up one side of the ball under a coach strong on it, then replacing him with a coach strong on the OTHER and able to rebuild the disaster there, Kubiak would fit. But if that happens, good luck to any and every powerful lineman who trips over his own feet, because they'll be out of a job if Kubiak sticks with the ZBS he lived on in Denver and Houston.

Bronco9798
01-07-2015, 06:38 PM
It looks like the post-Manning Broncos will be a defensive team; I wouldn't mind Kubiak as our OC, then HC (just the opposite) but think Del Rio fits the direction we're moving much better. On the other hand, in the current style of teams building up one side of the ball under a coach strong on it, then replacing him with a coach strong on the OTHER and able to rebuild the disaster there, Kubiak would fit. But if that happens, good luck to any and every powerful lineman who trips over his own feet, because they'll be out of a job if Kubiak sticks with the ZBS he lived on in Denver and Houston.

JDR will never live to be the coach of the Denver Broncos. I think we both know that. I think Elway would trust Kubiak. They go back a long way. Kubes has a lot to offer on the O side of the ball. I think you can always run a version of the ZBS, not 100 percent though. I'd like to see Kubiak and Elway back together.

TXBRONC
01-07-2015, 06:48 PM
Yeah or add in dollar signs for PORTI$$$$

Like Joel, he too would send me notifications all the time. Hmmmm... JRs gone but Joels here.....

No, no, JR called him Poorti$$$.

Simple Jaded
01-08-2015, 01:37 AM
JDR will never live to be the coach of the Denver Broncos. I think we both know that. I think Elway would trust Kubiak. They go back a long way. Kubes has a lot to offer on the O side of the ball. I think you can always run a version of the ZBS, not 100 percent though. I'd like to see Kubiak and Elway back together.

Kubes runs his ZBS with B-mores maulers, giving it the best of boths worlds, the notion the you needed Ben Hamilton and Dan Neil was such BS.

Ravage!!!
01-10-2015, 11:27 AM
JDR will never live to be the coach of the Denver Broncos. I think we both know that. I think Elway would trust Kubiak. They go back a long way. Kubes has a lot to offer on the O side of the ball. I think you can always run a version of the ZBS, not 100 percent though. I'd like to see Kubiak and Elway back together.
He didn't exactly do wonders for the Texans. I wouldn't want Kubiak as our HC but he makes a good OC.

Ravage!!!
01-10-2015, 11:29 AM
Why would the post Manning Broncos be defensive? :confused:

Valar Morghulis
01-10-2015, 11:31 AM
because we will lack a qb able to run a high octane offence, so we will run the ball a lot then play strong defence, unless Oz turns into Aaron Rodgers whilst warming the bench for a legend

Ravage!!!
01-10-2015, 11:38 AM
because we will lack a qb able to run a high octane offence, so we will run the ball a lot then play strong defence, unless Oz turns into Aaron Rodgers whilst warming the bench for a legend

Possibly. But Fox is a defensive coach, and we have a high octane offense.

Valar Morghulis
01-10-2015, 11:45 AM
Possibly. But Fox is a defensive coach, and we have a high octane offense.

how much do you think fox has to do with our offensive schemes and play calls that are of the high octane variety

Ravage!!!
01-10-2015, 12:43 PM
how much do you think fox has to do with our offensive schemes and play calls that are of the high octane variety

That's kind of my point. The HC doesn't really have to be the determining factor as to how your team plays. A Defensive minded coach can have the most prolific offense in the NFL (as we have had, and NE has had for years with Belicheck as the HC). While an offensive coach can have monster defenses that win ...Gibbs, Ditka, Gruden, Billick, and Harbaugh come to mind.

Personally, if we think we are going to go with a "defensive minded" coach, why would we dismiss the successful HC we already have hired?

Valar Morghulis
01-10-2015, 12:51 PM
That's kind of my point. The HC doesn't really have to be the determining factor as to how your team plays. A Defensive minded coach can have the most prolific offense in the NFL (as we have had, and NE has had for years with Belicheck as the HC). While an offensive coach can have monster defenses that win ...Gibbs, Ditka, Gruden, Billick, and Harbaugh come to mind.

Personally, if we think we are going to go with a "defensive minded" coach, why would we dismiss the successful HC we already have hired?

Ah OK, i see - we are misunderstanding each other. And i have no strong desire to dismiss Fox. I think he could even come into his own - post manning.

I dont think we will be defensive because of our head coach - i think we will be defensive because whatever QB we have going forward, he is likely to be a downgrade on manning, therefore we will simplify our offence, run the ball a lot - then rely on good defence to get the ball back. Sort of like 2011. I think that it will be that way - regardless of how offensive/defensive minded our head coach is.

Otherwise i think we would just be a turnover team, pick six, 3 and out, blown plays, missed routes - If Oz turns out to have the talent, or we pick up another able QB, then providing we retain certain players in skill postition, then i would imagine we would get back to being an air attack team quite quickly.

Ravage!!!
01-10-2015, 12:57 PM
Ah OK, i see - we are misunderstanding each other. And i have no strong desire to dismiss Fox. I think he could even come into his own - post manning.

I dont think we will be defensive because of our head coach - i think we will be defensive because whatever QB we have going forward, he is likely to be a downgrade on manning, therefore we will simplify our offence, run the ball a lot - then rely on good defence to get the ball back. Sort of like 2011. I think that it will be that way - regardless of how offensive/defensive minded our head coach is.

Otherwise i think we would just be a turnover team, pick six, 3 and out, blown plays, missed routes - If Oz turns out to have the talent, or we pick up another able QB, then providing we retain certain players in skill postition, then i would imagine we would get back to being an air attack team quite quickly.

I see what you are saying. I think the college QBs coming out in today's game are a lot more NFL ready than in years past. Plus, because of the changes in rules, the spread offenses are coming back into the NFL like they run in college. So even young QBs are expected to throw the ball regularly, and need to.

But that being said, I completely get where you are coming from. No QB is going to come in and run an offense like Manning has/did. Can't expect it, and CERTAINLY don't want some young QB to try and duplicate it (which, imo, is a reason a lot of the QBs that have worked under Manning end up failing...they try to mimic him).

When it comes to Fox, I think he is the PERFECT guy for a young QB. He's proved time and time again to have the mentality of changing the offenses to fit the QB. Changed everything for Tebow. Has changed mid-season this year to a more running oriented team. He seems to be willing (and able) to change the offensive philosophy to fit personnel, and That...to me....is perfect for a young QB. Don't try to fit the square pet, whittle out the hole (that's what she said) to make it fit.

Jsteve01
01-11-2015, 01:17 AM
First question, I'd say Trestman fits the bill, I think he's a classic Norv Turner/ Wade Phillips type. A guy who is such a good coordinator that he'll get shots as a head coach. I'm not letting the Bears fiasco make me forget that Trestman is a very creative play caller and good with in game adjustment pre Chi town

As to the Kubes stuff. He's in Baltimore and I doubt the Ravens let us have a conversation for a lateral move. The other deterring factor for me may be a surprise but I think it's Elway. Reading the S.I. article and listening to him talk about how firing the H.C. and O.C. destroyed relationships with two guys that he loved. one who was his Dad's best friend and one was his best friend. I like Gary but there are plenty of quality candidates without adding that dynamic to the mix.

Simple Jaded
01-11-2015, 03:17 AM
Rex Ryan and Trestman are rumored to trying to pair up, if it's SF watch the **** out.

Broncos could add "Asst HC" to Kubiak's title if they wanted to take him from B-More.

TXBRONC
01-11-2015, 08:58 AM
Rex Ryan and Trestman are rumored to trying to pair up, if it's SF watch the **** out.

Broncos could add "Asst HC" to Kubiak's title if they wanted to take him from B-More.

I would love to see Kubiak as Denver's next o.c. but that's not going to happen unless Gase gets head coaching job elsewhere. I'll make this prediction if Kubiak were come to Denver Underrated will say he's great in year one but in year two he'll says he's to predictable and doesn't know how to call plays.

underrated29
01-11-2015, 02:51 PM
I would love to see Kubiak as Denver's next o.c. but that's not going to happen unless Gase gets head coaching job elsewhere. I'll make this prediction if Kubiak were come to Denver Underrated will say he's great in year one but in year two he'll says he's to predictable and doesn't know how to call plays.



You'd only have one OC to make that prediction from, so you'd likely be wrong. As we all know I never liked, ever, McCoy as OC. I made threads about him before the seasons even started. To which he obviously doesn't apply to your prediction. If it were kubes, I'm not sure how I'd feel. I do generally like him as an OC. However, he runs a lot of PA Boots, which I love, but manning cannot run those plays. There would be room for concern but I'm sure he'd adjust from that. Only one way to find out.