Free Agent Kickers?

[Shazam!]

If McManus had made that FG and Denver wasn't afraid to kick FGs and for it on 4th down every time it changed this game.

Any FA kickers out there you can see them bringing in?

I know Elway will bring in someone.

[tripp]

Would you rather Ray Finkle?

[BroncoWave]

Normally I'd be fore being patient and giving the guy a chance to improve, but I don't think we have time to do that given that we are 8 weeks from the playoffs. I'm not saying to cut him now, but I'd definitely bring some people in for tryouts to just see what's out there.

[tomjonesrocks]

I wonder if Akers could revive his career in Denver.

[Joel]

I wonder if Akers could revive his career in Denver.
Probably not at 40; even for kickers, there's not much career to revive at that age. If we go with a lefty, I STRONGLY prefer the guy Akers narrowly beat out last season. He's just as accurate, more powerful at this point, and the only real issue (i.e. holding for a lefty) is the same for both.

Kickalious: His legs every bit as strong, but he NEVER MISSES (the top priority for a placekicker.) He was 100% in preseason for the Lions last year, including one from 50 and another from 49. The only thing he didn't nail was touchbacks, but that's less of an issue playing half our games at Mile High, and he says he's practiced it enough to get touchbacks consistently now anyway. The only remaining issue is that he's a lefty, and most teams don't like that because if flips the holders stance and motion that they practice till automatic.

I'd rather have practice left-footed holds than have a kicker who's LESS than even money from 40+, and needs a carom to be 100% from <40. Plus we could pay Rugland the same rookie minimum McManus is getting. If a left-footed newbie's out of the question though, Feely's still looking for work, and even an aging vet starter is still nigh automatic inside 50, which is (at least) 10 yds better than McManus. It does no good to have a kicker with a 60 yd leg when he's worse than even money from 40. If you want power, get a punter; place kickers are about accuracy first, power second.

[I Eat Staples]

I don't understand why Kickalicious is not on a roster. He has to be better than some of the kickers who currently have jobs.

[Joel]

I don't understand why Kickalicious is not on a roster. He has to be better than some of the kickers who currently have jobs.
I'm only going by what he told me, but it's apparently because he's a lefty and teams practice snaps and holds over and over till they're automatic reflexive acts, so they don't want to mess with that by flipping the holder around and sending the ball in from his other side for a lefty. It's probably part of what got Rugland the Lions tryout: They could practice it the same way for him AND Akers. The real question is why they did that but then brought in bums like Henery and I forget whom instead of calling Rugland back when Akers retired; my working theory is "because it's Detroit, and they're morons."

I hear ya though, I see multiple guys ranging from scary to laughable every week and keep wondering how left-footed holds could POSSIBLY be worse. For that matter, it's still legal to drop kick FGs, and his videos include a few of those, so if it's THAT big a deal a team could just have him kick that way and keep their backup QBs hands out of harms way. Oh, well, at least McManus USUALLY hits inside the 20....

[BroncoJoe]

Prater was 5 of 11 in his rookie year from 41-49 yards. Let's give the kid a chance.

I also think we were going for it on 4th down because of the score, not because of our kicker.

[BroncoWave]

Prater was 5 of 11 in his rookie year from 41-49 yards. Let's give the kid a chance.

I also think we were going for it on 4th down because of the score, not because of our kicker.

The problem is we weren't really a super bowl contender his rookie year, so we had time to give him a chance. I don't know that that's the case here.

[Northman]

Normally I'd be fore being patient and giving the guy a chance to improve, but I don't think we have time to do that given that we are 8 weeks from the playoffs. I'm not saying to cut him now, but I'd definitely bring some people in for tryouts to just see what's out there.

Problem is the team will in no way keep 2 kickers. So they either live/die with McManus or cut him and go after another guy.

[Northman]

Prater was 5 of 11 in his rookie year from 41-49 yards. Let's give the kid a chance.

I also think we were going for it on 4th down because of the score, not because of our kicker.

Agreed.

[BroncoWave]

Problem is the team will in no way keep 2 kickers. So they either live/die with McManus or cut him and go after another guy.

Yes, I realize that. I would not be opposed to cutting him if a better FA is out there. We need to win now, not in a year or two when McManus MAY be better.

[BroncoJoe]

Last time I checked, he hasn't cost a game.

[BroncoWave]

Last time I checked, he hasn't cost a game.

That's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. I'd rather fix the problem before it actually does cost us a game instead of just sitting around pretending it's not a problem because it hasn't happened yet.

And I'm not saying he cost us the game yesterday at all, because we were crap all around, but say he makes that FG then the coaches trust him to kick it on the next drive and he makes that one too. Then you are looking at potentially a 20-13 game heading into halftime instead of 27-7, then who knows what happens in the second half.

[BroncoJoe]

That's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. I'd rather fix the problem before it actually does cost us a game instead of just sitting around pretending it's not a problem because it hasn't happened yet.

And I'm not saying he cost us the game yesterday at all, because we were crap all around, but say he makes that FG then the coaches trust him to kick it on the next drive and he makes that one too. Then you are looking at potentially a 20-13 game heading into halftime instead of 27-7, then who knows what happens in the second half.

Or, you're being way too paranoid. Time will tell.

[BroncoJoe]

The problem is we weren't really a super bowl contender his rookie year, so we had time to give him a chance. I don't know that that's the case here.

Wasn't 2008 (Prater's rookie year) the year where we only had to win ONE MORE GAME out of our final three to win the division and make the playoffs?

[Krugan]

Hrmm, not sure im ready to give up on the kid, there is a reason Denver kept him over Drunky McDrunk.

If we are going to go that route, better flush other young talent now too, because the potential for for mistakes might cost us a game.

Come on folks, missed field goals happen. And that 3 points only means we lose by 19, its not like this team could score or stop NE for the better part of the game.

[weazel]

after next Sunday they will be able to grab kickers from the CFL if they want to go that route

[Nomad]

If the BRONCOS play like yesterday on the road (I say this because they have mostly road games left), they won't have to rely on a kicker. I agree with Joe here.

[Joel]

That's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. I'd rather fix the problem before it actually does cost us a game instead of just sitting around pretending it's not a problem because it hasn't happened yet.

And I'm not saying he cost us the game yesterday at all, because we were crap all around, but say he makes that FG then the coaches trust him to kick it on the next drive and he makes that one too. Then you are looking at potentially a 20-13 game heading into halftime instead of 27-7, then who knows what happens in the second half.
Actually, if he makes EITHER FG, let alone both, it might well be 20-13 at the half, because NE doesn't start at midfield TWICE. After the miss, and again after the 4th and 6 try, they were just one or two conversions from FG range, and only had to 50 yds for each TD. The only thing that stops THEM scoring points off the ones WE missed is a three-and-out from our D.

That lone missed FG triggered a 20 pt swing in a game we lost by 22, and I guarantee we don't spend the whole second half in 2:00 Drills going for it on 4th down if we're only down 2 instead of 22. We don't go for it on 4th and G: We kick the chip shot FG for a 1 pt lead. Sure, the coaches and many other players (practically all of them) contributed to that epic loss, but we could've won DESPITE all that if a guy with a huge leg doesn't doink a 40 yd FG for the second time in <10 tries.

All the "Elway walks on Not Too Shabby water" stuff in the wake of a 20 pt BLOW OUT by a vastly inferior bitter rival is BEYOND tired. It's like the SB again, or the one-and-done #1 seed in 2012.

[Dapper Dan]

I think it's pretty fitting that the guy's name is Kickalicious and he's a kicker. How cool is that?

[Joel]

I think it's pretty fitting that the guy's name is Kickalicious and he's a kicker. How cool is that?
Well, there's a reason he used that name to post his highlight reel on YouTube; not like it's his legal name. Although if Chad Johnsons Spanglish was OK, maybe Rugland should change his name, too.... :tongue:

[7DnBrnc53]

Actually, if he makes EITHER FG, let alone both, it might well be 20-13 at the half, because NE doesn't start at midfield TWICE. After the miss, and again after the 4th and 6 try, they were just one or two conversions from FG range, and only had to 50 yds for each TD. The only thing that stops THEM scoring points off the ones WE missed is a three-and-out from our D.

That lone missed FG triggered a 20 pt swing in a game we lost by 22, and I guarantee we don't spend the whole second half in 2:00 Drills going for it on 4th down if we're only down 2 instead of 22. We don't go for it on 4th and G: We kick the chip shot FG for a 1 pt lead. Sure, the coaches and many other players (practically all of them) contributed to that epic loss, but we could've won DESPITE all that if a guy with a huge leg doesn't doink a 40 yd FG for the second time in <10 tries.

All the "Elway walks on Not Too Shabby water" stuff in the wake of a 20 pt BLOW OUT by a vastly inferior bitter rival is BEYOND tired. It's like the SB again, or the one-and-done #1 seed in 2012.

I can't believe that they aren't auditioning kickers this week. I also think that Elway should seriously consider bringing back Dennis Allen, and canning Del Rio, who is hurting this defense.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Actually, if he makes EITHER FG, let alone both, it might well be 20-13 at the half, because NE doesn't start at midfield TWICE. After the miss, and again after the 4th and 6 try, they were just one or two conversions from FG range, and only had to 50 yds for each TD. The only thing that stops THEM scoring points off the ones WE missed is a three-and-out from our D.

That lone missed FG triggered a 20 pt swing in a game we lost by 22, and I guarantee we don't spend the whole second half in 2:00 Drills going for it on 4th down if we're only down 2 instead of 22. We don't go for it on 4th and G: We kick the chip shot FG for a 1 pt lead. Sure, the coaches and many other players (practically all of them) contributed to that epic loss, but we could've won DESPITE all that if a guy with a huge leg doesn't doink a 40 yd FG for the second time in <10 tries.

All the "Elway walks on Not Too Shabby water" stuff in the wake of a 20 pt BLOW OUT by a vastly inferior bitter rival is BEYOND tired. It's like the SB again, or the one-and-done #1 seed in 2012.

I can't believe that they aren't auditioning kickers this week. I also think that Elway should seriously consider bringing back Dennis Allen, and canning Del Rio, who is hurting this defense.
Before the nightmare yesterday, we were 4th in total defense and 1st vs the run. I think you're overreacting.

[BroncoJoe]

Before the nightmare yesterday, we were 4th in total defense and 1st vs the run. I think you're overreacting.

Those two overreact? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Say it isn't so, HP.

[Joel]

I still think the old DB who's our HC is hurting our offense AND defense more than the old LB who's our DC. I'll say this much: Del Rio got us MUCH closer to winning at Foxborough last year with a much lesser team while Fox was convalescing. Fox brought a lot more firepower and didn't have two key injuries right around halftime, but instead of defensively DOMINATING NE till we lost our best DT and CB right around halftime, we were blown out by halftime and never competed after that. And Manning, despite self-deprecation, played MUCH better yesterday than last year.

I've said before but will now repeat: I'd give Del Rio Foxs job in a second and without a second thought. Del Rio's just not an "aw, shucks, we'll fix our correctable mistakes someday :)" kinda guy.

[Joel]

Before the nightmare yesterday, we were 4th in total defense and 1st vs the run. I think you're overreacting.
I think Fox is (still) underreacting, and has far too little magic in his wand.

[PatriotsGuy]

Joel, do you know Brady's record vs. Del Rio defenses?

[Nomad]

Joel, do you know Brady's record vs. Del Rio defenses?

Just curious....what is it? I believe Brady is 2-1 since Del Rio became a BRONCO.....not sure though.

[PatriotsGuy]

Just curious....what is it? I believe Brady is 2-1 since Del Rio became a BRONCO.....not sure though.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000314383/article/tom-brady-perfect-against-jack-del-rios-defenses

Only loss was last year's AFCCG

EDIT: now tell me, how was the boiled dinner?

[Nomad]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000314383/article/tom-brady-perfect-against-jack-del-rios-defenses

Only loss was last year's AFCCG

EDIT: now tell me, how was the boiled dinner?

Well damn.....Del Rio needs to get it in gear against Brady.

The dinner came out awesome. We ate like pigs.:lol:

[tripp]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000314383/article/tom-brady-perfect-against-jack-del-rios-defenses

Only loss was last year's AFCCG

EDIT: now tell me, how was the boiled dinner?

So the loss Brady suffered to Del Rio was the only important one. Is that what you're saying? :confused:

[PatriotsGuy]

So the loss Brady suffered to Del Rio was the only important one. Is that what you're saying? :confused:

If that's what you took from it.

[tripp]

If that's what you took from it.

Kinda just jumped into the convo, it is a bit alarming though after reading the article.

[PatriotsGuy]

Kinda just jumped into the convo, it is a bit alarming though after reading the article.

Yeah but Jacksonville, so it is not exactly scientific analysis.

[Valar Morghulis]

I say we get Elam out of retirement. The fact they did not trust McManus and went for on 4 and 6 (iirc) speaks wonders for the faith they have in him.

I think if he had been proving himself in practice day in day out - despite missing the first FG in NE, they still let him kick, but they didnt, and that tells me he has not been reliable in training either.

Get him to fuvk - sign Kickalicious for no other reason than i think his youtube video was awesome (and the fact he never missed a FG in preseason, including a 50 yarder)

[Joel]

Yeah but Jacksonville, so it is not exactly scientific analysis.
Thanks for saving me the trouble of giving your question the answer I was going to give it. ;) Post-Jags covers all of 1½ seasons for Del Rio, but he's still only a game below .500 in those 3 games, with both losses on the road where Brady's lost... 3 games in his career was it? Del Rios team won the really important one, with HALF his defensive starters out hurt.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I say we get Elam out of retirement. The fact they did not trust McManus and went for on 4 and 6 (iirc) speaks wonders for the faith they have in him.

I think if he had been proving himself in practice day in day out - despite missing the first FG in NE, they still let him kick, but they didnt, and that tells me he has not been reliable in training either.

Get him to fuvk - sign Kickalicious for no other reason than i think his youtube video was awesome (and the fact he never missed a FG in preseason, including a 50 yarder)

Oh I'm sure he kicks the shit out of the ball in practice. Probably why they felt so confident in releasing Prater. No pressure, no clutch situations, nobody trying to block it, etc. Makes me think of a former QB of ours who was great in practice when nobody was allowed to hit or really pressure him then became the fainting goat choke artist in games. :rolleyes:

[PatriotsGuy]

TDel Rios team won the really important one, with HALF his defensive starters out hurt.

With these receivers and tight ends to defend;

J. Edelman
A. Collie
A. Dobson
M. Hoomanawanui
M. Mulligan

[7DnBrnc53]

With these receivers and tight ends to defend;

J. Edelman
A. Collie
A. Dobson
M. Hoomanawanui
M. Mulligan

Well, the biggest difference between January and last Sunday was that Gronk was in there. Nobody else scares me on that team, including #12 (who is a system QB). Gronk is a cross between Mark Bavaro and Kellen Winslow. And even then, if we don't let average players like Amendola and Edelman pick up cheap third and 12's, we would have had a much better chance to win.

[tripp]

Well, the biggest difference between January and last Sunday was that Gronk was in there. Nobody else scares me on that team, including #12 (who is a system QB). Gronk is a cross between Mark Bavaro and Kellen Winslow. And even then, if we don't let average players like Amendola and Edelman pick up cheap third and 12's, we would have had a much better chance to win.

Well that's just it right? If you can't stop Amendola, Edelman, and LaFell from picking up 3rd and long's, then don't even bother with Gronk,because you have bigger problems.

I will concede that New England Patriots had a better game plan and outplayed us in all aspects of the game last Sunday. I don't think there's any denying we have a more talented team. But that particular Sunday, we were outplayed.

What kind of gets on my nerves, and I hope I'm wrong.. but I can't help but feel like we'll beat the Raiders, and everyone will forget this Patriots game. I hope the fans, or the team doesn't forget about that loss. I hope it sticks in the back of their heads and use it as motivation against every team we play until the season ends for us.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I was frustrated when he missed on Sunday, but in all fairness to him it would have been a good kick if the wind wouldn't have pushed it.

[Traveler]

I was frustrated when he missed on Sunday, but in all fairness to him it would have been a good kick if the wind wouldn't have pushed it.

Didn't look to me like the wind was a factor. Kid just flat out missed it IMO.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I was frustrated when he missed on Sunday, but in all fairness to him it would have been a good kick if the wind wouldn't have pushed it.

Didn't look to me like the wind was a factor. Kid just flat out missed it IMO.
That was my impression, also. The ball didn't seem to arc or fade at all. It came straight off his foot and made a bee line for the right upright. It's not like he missed it big, but a miss is a miss.

[Valar Morghulis]

Thats the thing - a miss IS a miss.

That is one of the reasons i love NFL so much - because everything matters. As Al Pacino says, "its a game of inches" and those few inches towards the right upright, changed the whole game, it affected the score, our attitude and our play calling. It was huge. Not saying we would have won - but the game would have been different. As a result - it might even cost him his job.

[Northman]

Lmao, this thread is hilarious.

[Nomad]

Lmao, this thread is hilarious.

Yep! Blame the rookie kicker, when your HOF QB and vaunted defense shit the bed, in yet, another big game.LoL

[tomjonesrocks]

Yep! Blame the rookie kicker, when your HOF QB and vaunted defense shit the bed, in yet, another big game.LoL

I don't see a singly poster saying McManus lost the Broncos the game.

I guess I'll say of your position LOL--look at these idiots saying McManus is headed for the HOF!!!111 ROTFLMAO!!!111

Suggesting maybe it was stupid for a team with SB aspirations to cut a reliable kicker with a booze problem for a rookie that's been extremely shaky so far? Well, yeah. Understandably.

[Nomad]

Take it up with Elway, he seems to run the show. McManus is doing the job with the experience he has and he was given. Nope. Manning and Co lost the game.

[Northman]

I don't see a singly poster saying McManus lost the Broncos the game.

No, they seem to be packing it in for the season which is even more embarrassing.


Suggesting maybe it was stupid for a team with SB aspirations to cut a reliable kicker with a booze problem for a rookie that's been extremely shaky so far? Well, yeah. Understandably.

Reliable? Being suspended because of his alcohol problem is reliable? Since when?

[tomjonesrocks]

Manning and Co lost the game.

All these people suggesting we should CUT Demaryius Thomas are hilarious! Cut a top 5 NFL receiver! Unbelievable!!1 LoL

[BroncoWave]

No, they seem to be packing it in for the season which is even more embarrassing.

Who is doing that exactly?

I don't see why some of you are getting so up in arms over us saying that maybe upgrading the kicker position isn't such a bad idea. If there is a guy out there who may be better, what's the harm in bringing him in for a tryout to see what he has at least?

[Nomad]

All these people suggesting we should CUT Demaryius Thomas are hilarious! Cut a top 5 NFL receiver! Unbelievable!!1 LoL

I don't even go there. Im just sticking up for a rookie, and holding the veterans accountable. This team has enough talent that it shouldn't have to rely on a rookie kicker from 45+ yards.

[BroncoWave]

I don't even go there. Im just sticking up for a rookie, and holding the veterans accountable. This team has enough talent that it shouldn't have to rely on a rookie kicker from 45+ yards.

Even the best teams have to rely on a kicker someones. The Pats had to rely on Vinateri for all 3 of their Super Bowls. It's the NFL. Every team is good when you get to the playoffs and there are a lot of close games. It's not uncommon for a great team to need a big kick to win a game.

[Nomad]

Who is doing that exactly?

I don't see why some of you are getting so up in arms over us saying that maybe upgrading the kicker position isn't such a bad idea. If there is a guy out there who may be better, what's the harm in bringing him in for a tryout to see what he has at least?

This seems like a decision the coaches and FO needs to make, and they don't seem as concerned. Perhaps it comes down to depth at other positions they're more concerned or they see this team is talented enough McManus will only be needed for chip shots.

[BroncoWave]

This seems like a decision the coaches and FO needs to make, and they don't seem as concerned. Perhaps it comes down to depth at other positions they're more concerned or they see this team is talented enough McManus will only be needed for chip shots.

You can say that about any decision, that doesn't mean we can't put in our two cents on it! :D

[Nomad]

Even the best teams have to rely on a kicker someones. The Pats had to rely on Vinateri for all 3 of their Super Bowls. It's the NFL. Every team is good when you get to the playoffs and there are a lot of close games. It's not uncommon for a great team to need a big kick to win a game.

Obviously, Elway trusts McManus.

[BroncoWave]

Obviously, Elway trusts McManus.

So I'm not allowed to have a different opinion then?

[Nomad]

You can say that about any decision, that doesn't mean we can't put in our two cents on it! :D

Why do you guys always refer to this, it's a debate. I see McManus being the scapegoat, when Manning and others should be questioned.

[Nomad]

So I'm not allowed to have a different opinion then?

Lame.

[Slick]

I don't think Elway would hesitate in bringing another kicker in if he thought he could do better than McManus. I just don't think he sees much out there. Do a search and tell me you find a kicker worth signing at this point.

Bironas is dead.
Akers is old.
Rian Lindell?

Meh.

[BroncoWave]

Lame.

I think it's lame to say, "Well Elway trusts him, so you're wrong". At that point you aren't thinking for yourself, you're just parroting Elway.

[capt. Jack]

The problem is we weren't really a super bowl contender his rookie year, so we had time to give him a chance. I don't know that that's the case here.

Don't worry, at this point we aren't going to any Super Bowls, all "Star Wars" numbers, no titles!

[Northman]

I don't see why some of you are getting so up in arms over us saying that maybe upgrading the kicker position isn't such a bad idea. If there is a guy out there who may be better, what's the harm in bringing him in for a tryout to see what he has at least?

If we had done that with Prater he would of been ousted from Denver long ago.

[BroncoWave]

If we had done that with Prater he would of been ousted from Denver long ago.

Fair enough, but we have a way smaller super bowl window right now than we had when Prater was a rookie.

[Northman]

Even the best teams have to rely on a kicker someones. The Pats had to rely on Vinateri for all 3 of their Super Bowls. It's the NFL. Every team is good when you get to the playoffs and there are a lot of close games. It's not uncommon for a great team to need a big kick to win a game.

Well, currently McManus is 6 of 9 for the season and he is a rookie. Adam was already in the league for 5 years when they played the Rams in the SB and he was 27 of 33 in FG's. Dont you think you guys are overreacting before the season is even done? The guy had a bad game, it happens.

[BroncoWave]

Well, currently McManus is 6 of 9 for the season and he is a rookie. Adam was already in the league for 5 years when they played the Rams in the SB and he was 27 of 33 in FG's. Dont you think you guys are overreacting before the season is even done? The guy had a bad game, it happens.

I don't think I'm overreacting. I'm not saying cut McManus now. I'm saying see what's out there and if it's possible to upgrade the position. If all the FAs out there are washed up and aren't better, that's fine. I just don't know what we have the time to wait for him to become a consistent kicker.

[tomjonesrocks]

I see McManus being the scapegoat, when Manning and others should be questioned.

For some reason you are missing no one is arguing the latter. It is possible to question both simultaneously.

And not one person has blamed the game on McManus. Don't let me stop your crusade, though...

[Krugan]

I don't think I'm overreacting. I'm not saying cut McManus now. I'm saying see what's out there and if it's possible to upgrade the position. If all the FAs out there are washed up and aren't better, that's fine. I just don't know what we have the time to wait for him to become a consistent kicker.

Although I agree with the time issue, its where we are and the choice was made before Prater even got back to see what he had in his pocket.

So it kind of says we have to trust what the coaching staff and the gm are doing.

Player jumping doesnt lead to anything better, imo, as each have there own quirks and likes that have to be learnt. Personally, as we are 8 games in, I would prefer them to ride the storm out.

[BroncoWave]

I hope he does get better before the playoffs. All I know is that if we lose a playoff game on a missed field goal, this board will absolutely implode.

[tomjonesrocks]

I hope he does get better before the playoffs. All I know is that if we lose a playoff game on a missed field goal, this board will absolutely implode.

You know what I'm sick and tired of? All this SCAPEGOATING of the Broncos mascot for this loss, when its Manning and Co. that need to be scrutinized.

I mean, for crying out loud! The mascot wasn't even in the house for the game!

[Northman]

I hope he does get better before the playoffs. All I know is that if we lose a playoff game on a missed field goal, this board will absolutely implode.

The board will implode anyway. lol

[BroncoWave]

The board will implode anyway. lol

True, I just hope we don't lose for a reason that many of us said could have been avoidable.

[Northman]

We should bring in Vanderjagt.

[BroncoWave]

We should bring in Vanderjagt.

Peyton's head might actually explode! :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

True, I just hope we don't lose for a reason that many of us said could have been avoidable.

Seen avoidable? Thats a HUGE overstatement. Saying " I saw this coming"...is purely a statement of "I told you so." But if he makes the kick, we don't hear the "I was wrong." Bringing in a veteran kicker doesn't guarantee a made kick. You bring in an old kicker, get rid of a promising young prospect purely for this season is looking only for this season. Elway has stated time and time again that he has to think about more than just THIS season. The "it could have been avoidable" scenario can be said for any "bad" thing that happens. "That INT could ahve been avoidable...I saw it coming."

[BroncoWave]

Seen avoidable? Thats a HUGE overstatement. Saying " I saw this coming"...is purely a statement of "I told you so." But if he makes the kick, we don't hear the "I was wrong." Bringing in a veteran kicker doesn't guarantee a made kick. You bring in an old kicker, get rid of a promising young prospect purely for this season is looking only for this season. Elway has stated time and time again that he has to think about more than just THIS season. The "it could have been avoidable" scenario can be said for any "bad" thing that happens. "That INT could ahve been avoidable...I saw it coming."

I will absolutely say I was wrong if he wins a playoff game for us with a kick. Wouldn't be the first time I have admitted to being wrong on someone. I really hope I am wrong, but he is just not reliable at all right now.

I also never said that bringing in a veteran would guarantee that he makes a big kick. I have only said that if there is a veteran out there that is a better option RIGHT NOW, I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a look.

Now if Elway disagrees and is all-in on McManus that's fine, he's forgotten more about football than anyone on this board will ever know. But even the greatest can mistakes, and I really do hope this isn't one of them.

[PatriotsGuy]

Elway can sign ghost in the offseason

[Ravage!!!]

I will absolutely say I was wrong if he wins a playoff game for us with a kick. Wouldn't be the first time I have admitted to being wrong on someone. I really hope I am wrong, but he is just not reliable at all right now.

I also never said that bringing in a veteran would guarantee that he makes a big kick. I have only said that if there is a veteran out there that is a better option RIGHT NOW, I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a look.

Now if Elway disagrees and is all-in on McManus that's fine, he's forgotten more about football than anyone on this board will ever know. But even the greatest can mistakes, and I really do hope this isn't one of them.

But there you did it. You just defined "mistake" by a kick that wouldn't be guaranteed by another kicker.

[BroncoWave]

But there you did it. You just defined "mistake" by a kick that wouldn't be guaranteed by another kicker.

Oh, so you can't replace a guy unless his replacement would be guaranteed never to mess up. Got it.

[capt. Jack]

I am hoping this kid works out! I hope he Hits the game winner to win the AFC CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

[Ravage!!!]

Oh, so you can't replace a guy unless his replacement would be guaranteed never to mess up. Got it.

That's just twisting what you have said. You are the one that said that if Elway doesn't change kickers, and Mangus misses, then he made a "mistake." That's twisting logic to fit an outcome.

[BroncoWave]

That's just twisting what you have said. You are the one that said that if Elway doesn't change kickers, and Mangus misses, then he made a "mistake." That's twisting logic to fit an outcome.

Unless I think it's already a mistake and him missing a kick would just further prove it.

[Ravage!!!]

Unless I think it's already a mistake and him missing a kick would just further prove it.

That doesn't prove anything. What that does is support your opinion of Mangus. But it doesn't prove you were/are correct. You are unable to compare the kick with someone else. Its like any other opinion, despite you keep insisting, they can't be proved or disproved.

It's like when you see a reverse-pass. If the play works, it was a GREAT CALL!! If it doesn't work, people scream "terrible call." All based on hindsight. Was the call right? Very well could have been the right call. Sometimes even the right call doesn't have positive outcomes.

[BroncoWave]

That doesn't prove anything. What that does is support your opinion of Mangus. But it doesn't prove you were/are correct. You are unable to compare the kick with someone else. Its like any other opinion, despite you keep insisting, they can't be proved or disproved.

It's like when you see a reverse-pass. If the play works, it was a GREAT CALL!! If it doesn't work, people scream "terrible call." All based on hindsight. Was the call right? Very well could have been the right call. Sometimes even the right call doesn't have positive outcomes.

But if he keeps struggling like he is now and misses some big kicks in the playoffs, I think it's enough evidence to show that maybe we should have looked to replace him. Now if he is perfect for the rest of the season but then misses a kick in the playoffs then sure, you can't say it was a mistake to keep him. But if he keeps playing like he currently is, then I think I will have all the proof I need.

[BroncoWave]

But I did forget we live in the bizarro Ravage world where what happens on the field isn't sufficient to prove someone right or wrong in their evaluation of a player.

[Ravage!!!]

But I did forget we live in the bizarro Ravage world where what happens on the field isn't sufficient to prove someone right or wrong in their evaluation of a player.

Don't keep trying to twist things because you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion. You've always had a difficulty distinguishing the difference and understanding the difference. You continue to try and prove opinions with facts/stats and more possible scenarios. That STILL doesn't "prove" your opinion to be right/wrong. I'm sorry that you don't understand this.

[BroncoWave]

Don't keep trying to twist things because you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion. You've always had a difficulty distinguishing the difference and understanding the difference. You continue to try and prove opinions with facts/stats and more possible scenarios. That STILL doesn't "prove" your opinion to be right/wrong. I'm sorry that you don't understand this.

Yeah, facts and stats are the WORST things to validate an opinion with. What on earth was I thinking? :lol:

[BroncoWave]

So Ravage, if I'm not allowed to use facts, stats, or things that happen on the field as ways to validate my opinions, what am I allowed to use? I'm genuinely curious.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Andrew Mason @MaseDenver · 2h

.@mr_amaesing Not like McManus is shanking it. Strikes the ball well. Leads NFL in touchback %. 12 of 15 KOs away from Denver into end zone.

[Joel]

Andrew Mason @MaseDenver · 2h

.@mr_amaesing Not like McManus is shanking it. Strikes the ball well. Leads NFL in touchback %. 12 of 15 KOs away from Denver into end zone.
Yes, he has a very powerful leg; we already knew that, and if he were a punter, it would be my prime concern. Sadly, he's a placekicker, making accuracy my main concern, and he has NONE.

[MOtorboat]

Yes, he has a very powerful leg; we already knew that, and if he were a punter, it would be my prime concern. Sadly, he's a placekicker, making accuracy my main concern, and he has NONE.

Really? He's made 93 percent of his kicks.

[BroncoWave]

Really? He's made 93 percent of his kicks.

Wut? Tell me you aren't counting extra points in that? Every kicker makes pretty much all their extra points.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Really? He's made 93 percent of his kicks.

Wut? Tell me you aren't counting extra points in that? Every kicker makes pretty much all their extra points.

Yeah I'm a little confused too. Like I said I've only seen from the Seattle game forward and the only FG I've seen him hit were chip shots less than 40 vs the Cards. He missed a 40 something vs the Chargers and again vs the Pats. He didn't attempt any vs the 49ers IIRC.

[MOtorboat]

Wut? Tell me you aren't counting extra points in that? Every kicker makes pretty much all their extra points.

Prater didn't.

[MOtorboat]

Jason Elam missed 30 kicks in his first four years. 9 his rookie season. Missed an extra point that year, too.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

In Prater's first full year with the Broncos (2008), he attempted 34 FGs, and made 25

So far with Detroit in 3 games, he has attempted 7 FGs, and made 5

Prater's best year with the Broncos was last year, and it appears that is all that some are remembering.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/11122/matt-prater

[SR]

Oh well

[Nomad]

Pudgy Prater's kick was blocked

[BroncoWave]

Prater didn't.

Note I said "pretty much".

[BroncoWave]

Regardless, counting extra points is comical. I bet if you did that for every kicker, 93% would be on the lower end of the spectrum.

[Shazam!]

The simple point is most fans were concerned getting rid of Prater. Last week proved why some were right.

I believe the game would have gone differently with FGs.

[BroncoWave]

The simple point is most fans were concerned getting rid of Prater. Last week proved why some were right.

I believe the game would have gone differently with FGs.

I'm not even mad about getting rid of Prater. He hasn't exactly been killing it in Detroit himself. I'm just not convinced McManus was the best possible option to replace him.

[aberdien]

Regardless, counting extra points is comical. I bet if you did that for every kicker, 93% would be on the lower end of the spectrum.

Joel is counting the one extra point he almost missed, so if he can use that as justification for his lack of accuracy, it's only fair to use the opposite as justification for his plethora of accuracy.

[Shazam!]

The simple point is most fans were concerned getting rid of Prater. Last week proved why some were right.

I believe the game would have gone differently with FGs.

I'm not even mad about getting rid of Prater. He hasn't exactly been killing it in Detroit himself. I'm just not convinced McManus was the best possible option to replace him.

Agreed.

[ShaneFalco]

Regardless, counting extra points is comical. I bet if you did that for every kicker, 93% would be on the lower end of the spectrum.

rofl seriously.

[BroncoJoe]

So, let me get this straight. Some of you want to bring in someone else - who hasn't kicked in a game for what, 6-8 months - to replace a guy who clearly has a great leg and is working through some rookie jitters? His touchback % alone is worth holding onto him.

[weazel]

I am hoping this kid works out! I hope he Hits the game winner to win the AFC CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

I really hope its not that close... if they make it there

[Softskull]

Our former boy Prater has missed three in the last few games(coulda/shoulda been four). Kicking isn't guaranteed. Mc has a monster let and at this point I'd like every opposing team to start at the 20 after every kickoff. Maybe it will force Fox to go for those 4th and inches instead of settling for field goals. That's always driven me crazy. We have PMFM at the helm. Let him get you the inches.

[Joel]

I'm not even mad about getting rid of Prater. He hasn't exactly been killing it in Detroit himself. I'm just not convinced McManus was the best possible option to replace him.
I frankly think that's a much better argument, if only because there were and are FAR more alternatives than just "Prater or McManus; no third option."


Joel is counting the one extra point he almost missed, so if he can use that as justification for his lack of accuracy, it's only fair to use the opposite as justification for his plethora of accuracy.
Fine: The AVERAGE success rate for NFL PATs is ~99.5%; 93% is still pretty awful. Even squeaking in just ONE is a red flag when any randomly chosen kicker hits 99.5%.

McManus has hit just under 73% of FGs and came within a whisker of 97% on PATs. That doesn't inspire a mountain of confidence.


So, let me get this straight. Some of you want to bring in someone else - who hasn't kicked in a game for what, 6-8 months - to replace a guy who clearly has a great leg and is working through some rookie jitters? His touchback % alone is worth holding onto him.
He plays half his games (and hopefully ALL his home games) at Mile High: His TB% is virtually irrelevant, because TBs at Mile High are routine for any decent kicker. He's a placekicker, not a punter, which places the premium on accuracy; power's a nice bonus, but ONLY if preceded by accuracy, and McManus' isn't. Wasn't in college, wasn't last year in preseason, wasn't this year in preseason, still isn't.

Kickalicious gets TBs, too; he also splits the uprights from 50, and not just in pregame warmups, but against actual NFL opponents. Failing that, I'd rather know I can count on Feely or another former starter to hit from 45 than know McManus is even money from 60—and 50, 40, 30....

Maybe he'll eventually gain the accuracy that's so far eluded him through his college and brief pro career, but we don't have time in the middle of a SB run to wait however many seasons that takes.

[MOtorboat]

I frankly think that's a much better argument, if only because there were and are FAR more alternatives than just "Prater or McManus; no third option."


Fine: The AVERAGE success rate for NFL PATs is ~99.5%; 93% is still pretty awful. Even squeaking in just ONE is a red flag when any randomly chosen kicker hits 99.5%.

McManus has hit just under 73% of FGs and came within a whisker of 97% on PATs. That doesn't inspire a mountain of confidence.


He plays half his games (and hopefully ALL his home games) at Mile High: His TB% is virtually irrelevant, because TBs at Mile High are routine for any decent kicker. He's a placekicker, not a punter, which places the premium on accuracy; power's a nice bonus, but ONLY if preceded by accuracy, and McManus' isn't. Wasn't in college, wasn't last year in preseason, wasn't this year in preseason, still isn't.

Kickalicious gets TBs, too; he also splits the uprights from 50, and not just in pregame warmups, but against actual NFL opponents. Failing that, I'd rather know I can count on Feely or another former starter to hit from 45 than know McManus is even money from 60—and 50, 40, 30....

Maybe he'll eventually gain the accuracy that's so far eluded him through his college and brief pro career, but we don't have time in the middle of a SB run to wait however many seasons that takes.

ALL kicks. Not just PATs. McManus is 100 percent on PATs. Get your stats straight.

Jay Feeley has made 91.3 percent of the kicks he's attempted in his career. McManus 93 percent. Feeley has missed 18 field goals in the last four years. That's more than four a year.

So let's just stop with the bullshit charade that other kickers, including these supposed great veterans who don't even have a job, are better.

[Joel]

ALL kicks. Not just PATs. McManus is 100 percent on PATs. Get your stats straight.
So what? EVERYONE'S pretty much 100% on PATs: Even with botched snaps/holds, 99½% of PATs are good—but McManus is 100% by the skin of his teeth; he was inches from 35/36, or 97%.


Jay Feeley has made 91.3 percent of the kicks he's attempted in his career. McManus 93 percent. Feeley has missed 18 field goals in the last four years. That's more than four a year.
More than 4/yr? McManus missed 3 in HALF a year, so he must make ALL the rest to surpass Feely.


So let's just stop with the bullshit charade that other kickers, including these supposed great veterans who don't even have a job, are better.
The vet ex-starters lost their jobs because they lost their leg, not their accuracy, and I still prefer a guaranteed 3 pts inside 50 yds to a 50/50 shot from 30-60. Scott Norwood has an awful SB record.

[MOtorboat]

If Feely doesn't miss kicks, how did he miss 18 in the last four seasons?

And what the hell does Norwood have to do with anything?

[Ravage!!!]

So what? EVERYONE'S pretty much 100% on PATs: Even with botched snaps/holds, 99½% of PATs are good—but McManus is 100% by the skin of his teeth; he was inches from 35/36, or 97%.


More than 4/yr? McManus missed 3 in HALF a year, so he must make ALL the rest to surpass Feely.


The vet ex-starters lost their jobs because they lost their leg, not their accuracy, and I still prefer a guaranteed 3 pts inside 50 yds to a 50/50 shot from 30-60. Scott Norwood has an awful SB record.

Guaranteed?

[BroncoWave]

Our former boy Prater has missed three in the last few games(coulda/shoulda been four). Kicking isn't guaranteed. Mc has a monster let and at this point I'd like every opposing team to start at the 20 after every kickoff. Maybe it will force Fox to go for those 4th and inches instead of settling for field goals. That's always driven me crazy. We have PMFM at the helm. Let him get you the inches.

I would let Peyton give me the inches.

[BroncoJoe]

Barely missed a PAT. LOL. Classic Joek.

Not sure what kicker would be able to "guarantee" a FG from 50 or less. How about "Noone"?

[MOtorboat]

Barely missed a PAT. LOL. Classic Joek.

Not sure what kicker would be able to "guarantee" a FG from 50 or less. How about "Noone"?

Barely MADE. His complaint is about him barely making a PAT.

[SR]

Barely MADE. His complaint is about him barely making a PAT.

Last time I checked, barely made still means it was made.

[Joel]

If Feely doesn't miss kicks, how did he miss 18 in the last four seasons?
What was the range on those 18 misses in four seasons? At the rate McManu is going, he'll have that many in THREE seasons; how is 6 misses/yr better than 4? :confused:


And what the hell does Norwood have to do with anything?
Simple: He missed a very makeable game-winner that cost his team what would've been their only NFL championship in franchise history. There are a lot more FGs (game-winning and otherwise) from <50 than from >50, so trading accuracy on the short ones for the range to hit the long ones is a losing proposition (especially since distance doesn't exactly improve accuracy in the first place.)

Look, our home games are at Mile High, which hopefully includes EVERY playoff game: I value accuracy over range in placekickers anyway, but just how much are guaranteed TBs and 50 yd range worth at Mile High, where MOST starting kickers can get TBs and hit 50 yd FGs routinely? We went for it on 4th and 6 rather than send McManus' booming leg out to try a 50 yarder with a 20 mph tailwind:

How is that booming erratic leg helping us win games...?

[MOtorboat]

What was the range on those 18 misses in four seasons? At the rate McManu is going, he'll have that many in THREE seasons; how is 6 misses/yr better than 4? :confused:


Simple: He missed a very makeable game-winner that cost his team what would've been their only NFL championship in franchise history. There are a lot more FGs (game-winning and otherwise) from <50 than from >50, so trading accuracy on the short ones for the range to hit the long ones is a losing proposition (especially since distance doesn't exactly improve accuracy in the first place.)

Look, our home games are at Mile High, which hopefully includes EVERY playoff game: I value accuracy over range in placekickers anyway, but just how much are guaranteed TBs and 50 yd range worth at Mile High, where MOST starting kickers can get TBs and hit 50 yd FGs routinely? We went for it on 4th and 6 rather than send McManus' booming leg out to try a 50 yarder with a 20 mph tailwind:

How is that booming erratic leg helping us win games...?

None of your solutions are more accurate than McManus. Try again.

[MOtorboat]

Gotta say I do love the logic that Scott Norwood missed a kick in the Super Bowl in 1991, therefore Brandon McManus will miss a kick in the Super Bowl in 2015.

Perfectly sound logic.

[MOtorboat]

By the way, Jay Feely was 1-3 in his last playoff game.

[Slick]

Who's even available? I've done some research. The cupboard is bare.

[SR]

Who's even available? I've done some research. The cupboard is bare.

Jay Feely.

[Slick]

Jay Feely.

You want Jay Feely instead of McManus? Or Rian Lindell?

[SR]

You want Jay Feely instead of McManus? Or Rian Lindell?

I was mocking Joel. I want to give McManus a legitimate shot at development.

[ShaneFalco]

trade stl for greg the leg, he would beast it from 70 yards at mile high

[MOtorboat]

Cut him.

[Valar Morghulis]

Cut him.

Lol

[DenBronx]

Ive tried to stay out of the kicker drama.

But....

[Valar Morghulis]

I loved the reaction on the sidelines! They were overtly furious - not often you see that

[aberdien]

I loved the reaction on the sidelines! They were overtly furious - not often you see that

Whenever they give that type of a reaction, that's when the kicking position becomes a concern. Gotta find somebody else, or take I Eat Staples' advice and accept that FGs are useless anyway.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

cut him.

lol

[Pudge]

Seriously though, I want to pull my hair out

[Valar Morghulis]

Seriously though, I want to pull my hair out

pull your manly beard out

[Pudge]

pull your manly beard out

It's what gives md my superhuman strength