I am the Joel of Football's Future

[7DnBrnc53]

On the Football's Future website, I have been talking about how Patriot fans seem to overlook what Matt Cassel did in 2008, and how they don't give it any credence as far as calling Brady's legacy into question.

They want to compare the 2008 Cassel with the 07 Brady, which is totally unfair.

The 08 Cassel hadn't started since high school, and the 07 Brady was an eight-year vet. Comparing Cassel with the 01 Brady is fairer. Cassel had more weapons around him, but the 01 Brady had a very easy schedule (he only played three winning teams).

Just like some of you feel about Joel, they feel the same about me. A lot of those people can't stand Elway, and think that he is the most overrated QB ever. They think that Brady is so much better, and they even think that Drew Brees is better. They get irritated at me when I defend him, and they say things like "Dan Reeves made Chris Chandler" or "The Defense carried Denver to the SB in 86 and 87, not Elway".

[Ziggy]

So.......what's your point?

[WTE]

Every Patriots fan I know loves Cassel for what he did in 2008 going 11-5. But we all watched every game of that season and know exactly how it went down. NE did not have a very difficult schedule and they beat nearly every crappy team they played. They also lost to just about every good team they played. Hence, 11-5.

[Northman]

Do i think Brady is better than Elway? No. But i dont think Peyton is better than Elway either (overall). But Brady is damn good and one of the best for a reason. For me, i dont think it has to be a either/or when it comes to Brady, Elway, or Manning. All 3 are great QB's and all bring something a little different to the table. But shit, if we didnt have Manning i would love to have Brady as my QB here no question in my mind. I think on some level Tommy would be jizzing himself if he was playing with the kind of squad that Peyton is. I know, i know. That was a poor pun given Brady's love for tight ends.....

[GEM]

Not quite sure why Joel had to be brought up here.

Anyone who says the Broncos D carried us anywhere and not Elway, they didn't watch the Broncos in the 80's. Idiots.

[Joel]

Not quite sure why Joel had to be brought up here.
Hey, it happens sooner or later in EVERY thread, right? ;) He was just beating everyone else to the punch. :tongue:


Anyone who says the Broncos D carried us anywhere and not Elway, they didn't watch the Broncos in the 80's. Idiots.
Pretty laughable, yeah, though I do think those defenses sometimes get less credit than they deserve. They're still 6-10 teams if the D has no complement but Kubiak throwing near the Three Amigos.

[BroncoJoe]

I can't think of any other QB in history that could have taken those Broncos' teams to the three Super Bowls other than Elway. Not one.

If they want to credit the Denver defense for a Super Bowl appearance, look no further than the '77 team.

[BroncoJoe]

One more thing:

It's virtually impossible to "rate" any player and compare them with others. There are so many variables, different era's, teammates, rules, etc. that it is really an effort in futility.

Montana was great. Marino was great. Brady is great, as is Manning. Hell, even Bradshaw was a perfect fit for those Steeler teams. Aikman, Staubach, Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton - the list goes on and on.

I'm a Broncos fan. Elway will always be #1 in my book.

[WTE]

One more thing:

It's virtually impossible to "rate" any player and compare them with others. There are so many variables, different era's, teammates, rules, etc. that it is really an effort in futility.

Montana was great. Marino was great. Brady is great, as is Manning. Hell, even Bradshaw was a perfect fit for those Steeler teams. Aikman, Staubach, Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton - the list goes on and on.

I'm a Broncos fan. Elway will always be #1 in my book.

I hate ratings and top 5's. Mo loves them.

[Joel]

I can't think of any other QB in history that could have taken those Broncos' teams to the three Super Bowls other than Elway. Not one.

If they want to credit the Denver defense for a Super Bowl appearance, look no further than the '77 team.
The QB who WON that SB could've taken the '80s Broncos teams there. Kinda sad how that worked out: Staubach couldn't unseat Morton as Dallas' starter in 1970, so was on the bench when they lost SB V, but after he took over in the middle of the next season and led the Cowboys to the franchises first NFL Championship Mortons Dallas days were numbered, and his days as a starter done. Those two SBs and SB XII made Morton the only starting QB to lose a SB for both conferences, denied his second championship shot by the guy who took his job after the first.

Those SBs plus X and XIII also made Staubach the first QB to reach 5 SBs, a feat unsurpassed before Elway started his 5th in '98 (Brady equalled THAT record in 2010, and hopefully never breaks it.) The Hidden Game of Footballs "Rumblings in the Pantheon" chapter concludes with 5 Dos and 5 Don'ts; one of the latter is "don't let a superstar succeed you at your position." Morton had the misfortune to do it TWICE.


One more thing:

It's virtually impossible to "rate" any player and compare them with others. There are so many variables, different era's, teammates, rules, etc. that it is really an effort in futility.

Montana was great. Marino was great. Brady is great, as is Manning. Hell, even Bradshaw was a perfect fit for those Steeler teams. Aikman, Staubach, Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton - the list goes on and on.
That's a recurring theme in THGoF, and their imperfect solution remains the best: Cross-era comparisons only work by comparing how much better/worse two players were than CONTEMPORARIES. Like, when Marino threw 48 TDs in '84 it was an unbelievable record because Montana was a distant second with 32 (i.e. Marino averaged one more PER GAME than Joe Cool and everyone else.) So Manning beating the record by a SINGLE TD 20 years later is less impressive because there were THREE other guys with 32+ (and none as good as Montana.)

It's similar to DVOA, which is logical since the authors did the same thing for offensive and defensive lines, and Football Outsiders openly and devotedly admits THGoF pretty much inspired their whole site.


I'm a Broncos fan. Elway will always be #1 in my book.
Thorpe, who actually WAS a one-man offense: Starting passer, starting runner, starting kicker, and he had to play defense, too, since anyone who left a game had to stay out till the next quarter.

In the modern (or at least post-merger) era though, it's hard to think of anyone who had Elways elite power, accuracy, elusiveness, running ability and vision. Like, '9ers fans will bring up Montana and Steve Young, but Montana didn't have as big an arm and was never the scrambler and outright rushing THREAT Elways was, and Young never had his accuracy or vision. Cunningham had the arm and the running, but not the accuracy or vision. Marino had the accuracy, vision and power, but when he ran a Statue of Liberty play, the emphasis was firmly on "statue." Elway was unique in versatile eliteness.

[Bronco9798]

It's already been mentioned several times but Elway led the Broncos to the 80's Super Bowls. Still the defense wasn't all that bad back in those days either. Granted, they sucked in the super bowls, but any AFC defense would of in those days. Louie Wright, Mike Harden, Mecklenburg, Jones, Castille, Dennis Smith and those guys had some pretty decent games during the regular season back then. The one guy that was horrible was Tony Lily. Those were some fun times back then though with The Drive and The Fumble!!!

[Thnikkaman]

I am the Joel that understands the value in brevity.

[DenBronx]

I am the Joel that doesn't give a shit.

[Thnikkaman]

I am the Joel who's quality of life doesn't hinge on winning an argument on the Internet.

[chazoe60]

I am the Joel who says love can be coerced.

[FanInAZ]

Not quite sure why Joel had to be brought up here.



Hey, it happens sooner or later in EVERY thread, right? ;) He was just beating everyone else to the punch. :tongue:


Just like some of you feel about Joel, they feel the same about me. A lot of those people can't stand Elway, and think that he is the most overrated QB ever. They think that Brady is so much better, and they even think that Drew Brees is better. They get irritated at me when I defend him, and they say things like "Dan Reeves made Chris Chandler" or "The Defense carried Denver to the SB in 86 and 87, not Elway".

Basically, he feels that he gets ganged up on because he says things that are not popular.


Anyone who says the Broncos D carried us anywhere and not Elway, they didn't watch the Broncos in the 80's. Idiots.



Pretty laughable, yeah, though I do think those defenses sometimes get less credit than they deserve. They're still 6-10 teams if the D has no complement but Kubiak throwing near the Three Amigos.

Our D in the 80s was very good, but wasn't designed to stop the old school power running that the Giants & Redskins used against them. Elway had a substandard players at almost all O positions. Plus, Reeves insisted on using the running game (that we didn't have) to set up the passing game (that we did have).

[Thnikkaman]

Basically, he feels that he gets ganged up on because he says things that are not popular.



The truth is that he gets ganged up on for being long winded and like a wolverine with lock jaw.

[BroncoJoe]

blah, blah, blah.

Seriously dude. Are you incapable of making a point without writing that much? IMO, if you have to use that many words, you really don't have anything to say.

I often times like your points, but your overkill approach is what dooms you.

[Joel]

Our D in the 80s was very good, but wasn't designed to stop the old school power running that the Giants & Redskins used against them. Elway had a substandard players at almost all O positions. Plus, Reeves insisted on using the running game (that we didn't have) to set up the passing game (that we did have).
Well, that WAS football ~5-10 years ago when the owners decided flag arena football made for better ratings. Back when defense was still legal, anyone who regularly threw 30-40 passes/gm against 6-7 guys in coverage was pick machine: The only way to consistently succeed on those home runs was to run well enough it forced LBs and (ideally) a safety to crowd the line so QBs could throw over their heads against single coverage. Which, of course, is why guys like Landry, Gibbs, Parcells AND REEVES did it so much; you'd have to ask Mr. Bowlen why we never developed the necessary running prerequisite.

I can't blame Reeves not wanting Elway to play sandlot ball 3+ hrs/wk for 16 gms/yr; he'd have never lasted long enough to be the oldest SB-winning QB if he had.

[Joel]

Seriously dude. Are you incapable of making a point without writing that much? IMO, if you have to use that many words, you really don't have anything to say.

I often times like your points, but your overkill approach is what dooms you.
1) When you start with "no QB in history" you're talking about nearly a CENTURY; there's no thumbnail for that.
2) You made TWO posts; I replied to them in ONE: Which is more space intensive?

[DenBronx]

I am the Joel of Footballs past.

[BroncoJoe]

1) When you start with "no QB in history" you're talking about nearly a CENTURY; there's no thumbnail for that.
2) You made TWO posts; I replied to them in ONE: Which is more space intensive?

1). All you'd need to do is name a QB who could have
2). You go off on unreadable tangents that sometimes address the subject, often times do not.

[Joel]

1). All you'd need to do is name a QB who could have
Staubach for sure, probably Thorpe, Baugh and Graham.


2). You go off on unreadable tangents that sometimes address the subject, often times do not.
Tangents must touch at one point, by definition; I try to avoid true non sequuntur.

[BroncoJoe]

Staubach for sure, probably Thorpe, Baugh and Graham.


Tangents must touch at one point, by definition; I try to avoid true non sequuntur.

Ding, fries are done. I am finished with you. I swear you have some kind of mental problem. Seek help.

[Joel]

Ding, fries are done. I am finished with you. I swear you have some kind of mental problem. Seek help.
I'm good, thanks, man: When I tell someone I'm done talking to them, I don't keep right on doing it anyway while opining they have a mental problem. ;)

[tomjonesrocks]

I like the variety a Joel (or gasp! Zam) brings to this relatively small community. Shakes things up. I even agree with them sometimes.

Seriously though--I'm often described after years of writing papers and coding web pages as the fastest "typer" people have ever seen. At 110wpm -- I'm fast, though my secretary Mom went 140wpm on an IBM typewriter so I can't let that prowess get to my head.

Joel must be a medical transcriptionist or something though to have time in his life to write tome after tome. He must have fire in his fingers.

[Shazam!]

Zam at least made us laugh with his absurdity and didn't post chapters and stories of nothing.

[Joel]

I like the variety a Joel (or gasp! Zam) brings to this relatively small community. Shakes things up. I even agree with them sometimes.

Seriously though--I'm often described after years of writing papers and coding web pages as the fastest "typer" people have ever seen. At 110wpm -- I'm fast, though my secretary Mom went 140wpm on an IBM typewriter so I can't let that prowess get to my head.

Joel must be a medical transcriptionist or something though to have time in his life to write tome after tome. He must have fire in his fingers.
Nah, I can only make 70 if I care about accuracy, and that's if it IS just transcription so I don't have to think about what I'm trying to say or how to do so. I wish I had your speed.... :(

[Joel]

Zam at least made us laugh with his absurdity and didn't post chapters and stories of nothing.
Zam was so contrarian he made me look like a Kool-Aid addict, but at least he cared enough about the team and the game to do his homework, put some thought into (most) of his observations and support them. That's why he didn't need me to tell him about The Hidden Game of Football: Because he ALSO has a first edition (though IIRC he was surprised to hear how influential it is.) Zam was, and hopefully still is, passionate and committed enough to invest more than 3½ hrs/wk in front of his TV plus an intermittently scanned Twitter feed. That's why I miss him, and appreciate fan police as little as he.

[7DnBrnc53]

Well, that WAS football ~5-10 years ago when the owners decided flag arena football made for better ratings. Back when defense was still legal, anyone who regularly threw 30-40 passes/gm against 6-7 guys in coverage was pick machine: The only way to consistently succeed on those home runs was to run well enough it forced LBs and (ideally) a safety to crowd the line so QBs could throw over their heads against single coverage. Which, of course, is why guys like Landry, Gibbs, Parcells AND REEVES did it so much; you'd have to ask Mr. Bowlen why we never developed the necessary running prerequisite.

I can't blame Reeves not wanting Elway to play sandlot ball 3+ hrs/wk for 16 gms/yr; he'd have never lasted long enough to be the oldest SB-winning QB if he had.

I thought that Elway was in a sandlot offense. It seemed like it to me at times because he had to run around to find a WR because they usually only sent three guys out in the pattern. That's why Steve Watson called it the Edsel System. He said that it was more about pass protection than attacking the defense.

As for Denver's D in 86 and 87, they were smoke and mirror units that tried to force turnovers a lot. When they didn't, and when Denver's offense stalled, they were exposed.

[Dapper Dan]

I tried using that site a while back. I didn't care for it much.

[Timmy!]

I am the joel who doesn't understand da faq this thread is.

[WTE]

I tried using that site a while back. I didn't care for it much.

I checked out the site yesterday and there is a section for the needs of every NFL team.

Last updated in 2013. :lol:

[Joel]

I thought that Elway was in a sandlot offense. It seemed like it to me at times because he had to run around to find a WR because they usually only sent three guys out in the pattern. That's why Steve Watson called it the Edsel System. He said that it was more about pass protection than attacking the defense.
Had it been sandlot ball there would've been 4-5 guys in the pattern most of the time, and Elway would've run around even more, because he'd have had no protection. Reeves didn't want a Mad Bomber offense, because the AFC may still have been weak enough for that to work, but it would never work in a SB. Even the Raiders needed a better QB than Lamonica, several good receivers, a smothering D and a "fair" amount of cheating, and they still won twice as many SB with Marcus Allen as they did without him. Denver just didn't have the Broncos for that (or anything else, really.)


As for Denver's D in 86 and 87, they were smoke and mirror units that tried to force turnovers a lot. When they didn't, and when Denver's offense stalled, they were exposed.
That's what teams must do when they don't have enough talent at enough positions to stop opponents: Make it up with scheme, and gamble on forcing turnovers. A good coach can reach the playoffs like that, and a great one can reach a title game, but winning a championship against championship-calibre teams usually requires matching their great coaching and talent with more than great coaching.

[chazoe60]

I am the Joel who doesn't write War and Peace fan fiction.

[chazoe60]

I am Joel's complete lack of surprise

I am Joel's smirking revenge

[Joel]

I am the Joel who doesn't write War and Peace fan fiction.
War and Peace IS fan (or anti-fan) fiction.

[GEM]

I am Joel's complete lack of surprise

I am Joel's smirking revenge

Tyler Durden. Oh how I love Fight Club!!!

[Joel]

I am the Walrus, and on weekends the Cheese.

[Thnikkaman]

I am the Walrus, and on weekends the Cheese.

Please change your avatar to this on the weekends then:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/219/0/c/Cheese_hey_lady_by_Celestial298.jpg

[DenBronx]

I am the Joel that is long winded.


Wait, that's the real Joel. My bad.

[Timmy!]

I am Joel's carpal tunnel.

[Joel]

I am the Joel who derails threads before POSTING in them—literally in my sleep, evidently. I'm also Spartacus (like everyone) and Batman (because I read somewhere one should be him whenever possible.)

[BroncoJoe]

Joel is a troll.

It rhymes, so it must be true.

[7DnBrnc53]

One of the Pat fans on there said today that Elway couldn't win a SB until Denver circumvented the salary cap, and basically said that John's only role in those SB wins was not to screw it up. Here is the page:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=556413&start=300

[Thnikkaman]

One of the Pat fans on there said today that Elway couldn't win a SB until Denver circumvented the salary cap, and basically said that John's only role in those SB wins was not to screw it up. Here is the page:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=556413&start=300


Your bait is rotten, and you're making too much noise in your boat.

Maybe you should go find different waters to run your trolling motor.

[GEM]

:shocked: Tinker, are you saying he's shamelessy plugging some other football site? Say it ain't so!!!

[7DnBrnc53]

Your bait is rotten, and you're making too much noise in your boat.

Maybe you should go find different waters to run your trolling motor.

What are you talking about? I am not trolling.

[Thnikkaman]

What are you talking about? I am not trolling.

And I'm totally not calling you out on it.

I'm going to level with you here. Your "attempt" to start a "meaningful" conversation seems to be about as genuine as Wil-E-Coyote providing a free meal to the roadrunner. You are attempting to steel the attention of forum members here from this site to your site. The "****s to give" budget is tapped out of the members here. And if anyone from here follows you over there, keep-em.

Your posts are juvenile. It's like if I came up to you and said, "That guy over their says your girlfriend smells funny, and your shoes are garbage. Are you going to take it from that guy?"

Nobody cares about insults and arguments that have been made 100 times over. You are trolling. This thread came straight out of trolling 101.

Find something else to do. Find a hobby. Get a night job. I hear that it's pretty easy to get a job as a taxi driver. Maybe you can spin these tales of scandal to drunken college kids trying to get back to their dorms.

[7DnBrnc53]

And I'm totally not calling you out on it.

I'm going to level with you here. Your "attempt" to start a "meaningful" conversation seems to be about as genuine as Wil-E-Coyote providing a free meal to the roadrunner. You are attempting to steel the attention of forum members here from this site to your site. The "****s to give" budget is tapped out of the members here. And if anyone from here follows you over there, keep-em.

Your posts are juvenile. It's like if I came up to you and said, "That guy over their says your girlfriend smells funny, and your shoes are garbage. Are you going to take it from that guy?"

Nobody cares about insults and arguments that have been made 100 times over. You are trolling. This thread came straight out of trolling 101.

Find something else to do. Find a hobby. Get a night job. I hear that it's pretty easy to get a job as a taxi driver. Maybe you can spin these tales of scandal to drunken college kids trying to get back to their dorms.

I am not trying to do that. I was just pointing out how irrational some fans can get towards Elway, who was, coincidentally, a former Bronco. And, this is a Bronco site, is it not?

[Joel]

One of the Pat fans on there said today that Elway couldn't win a SB until Denver circumvented the salary cap, and basically said that John's only role in those SB wins was not to screw it up. Here is the page:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=556413&start=300
Funny how no one but Pats fans ever think that worth mentioning, and only after someone brings up Spygate tainting all the SBs their franchise ever "won." I've never heard a Bolts, Chiefs or Raiders fan mention it once; Hell, my best friend's a diehard Packers fan and the only thing he ever complains about is cut blocks (which were and are legal.)


And I'm totally not calling you out on it.

I'm going to level with you here. Your "attempt" to start a "meaningful" conversation seems to be about as genuine as Wil-E-Coyote providing a free meal to the roadrunner. You are attempting to steel the attention of forum members here from this site to your site. The "****s to give" budget is tapped out of the members here. And if anyone from here follows you over there, keep-em.
I think (perhaps incorrectly) his point is everything's relative. I've e-known guys who'd make 4chan regulars recoil in horror, so being called a troll just for posting a lot and at length is amusing. For example, I've never manipulated a regular poster into masturbating for me on webcam just so I could show the OTHER regular poster she married, solely for the sheer sadistic joy of wrecking a marriage between people with whom I (previously) had a cordial relationship. Adults have trolled teens into suicide. But if folks think my posting habits beyond the pale, they're entitled to their opinion the same as everyone. :)

[Timmy!]

Tink bringing the pain.

[WTE]

Funny how no one but Pats fans ever think that worth mentioning, and only after someone brings up Spygate tainting all the SBs their franchise ever "won." I've never heard a Bolts, Chiefs or Raiders fan mention it once;

:)

No but you heard the prominent Raiders owner, a distinguished member of the HOF, call you out on it quite explicitly.

Even used the word *asterisk*

[GEM]

Just because you Dont break the rules doesn't mean you're not a troll...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

One of the Pat fans on there said today that Elway couldn't win a SB until Denver circumvented the salary cap, and basically said that John's only role in those SB wins was not to screw it up. Here is the page:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=556413&start=300

And Brady can't win a Super Bowl without Adam Vinatieri. I've said it before and I'll stick by the fact that Championships are team accomplishments.

[WTE]

And Elway can't win it without dumping Reeves and getting Shanahan!

Oh wait, Shanny's a shitty coach.

:confused:

[7DnBrnc53]

And Elway can't win it without dumping Reeves and getting Shanahan!

Oh wait, Shanny's a shitty coach.

:confused:

Well, he wasn't when he had Elway. However, it was Shanny the GM that hurt Shanahan the coach.

[Shazam!]

And Elway can't win it without dumping Reeves and getting Shanahan!

Oh wait, Shanny's a shitty coach.

:confused:

I'm fairly sure Shanny has a decent record vs. Belly.

[Dapper Dan]

And Elway can't win it without dumping Reeves and getting Shanahan!

Oh wait, Shanny's a shitty coach.

:confused:

I think everyone said Elway won because of the RB coach, or something like that.

[Thnikkaman]

I am not trying to do that. I was just pointing out how irrational some fans can get towards Elway, who was, coincidentally, a former Bronco. And, this is a Bronco site, is it not?

But you are doing that. :coffee:

[7DnBrnc53]

But you are doing that. :coffee:

Dude, calm down. You are getting irrational.

[SR]

Dude, calm down. You are getting irrational.

Don't you telling ******* Tinker to calm down!

[PatriotsGuy]

Don't you telling ******* Tinker to calm down!

Calm down dude! Those asterisks are going to wreak havoc on your blood pressure!

[OB]

For example, I've never manipulated a regular poster into masturbating for me on webcam just so I could show the OTHER regular poster she married, solely for the sheer sadistic joy of wrecking a marriage between people with whom I (previously) had a cordial relationship.

What in the ever loving ****....

[Joel]

No but you heard the prominent Raiders owner, a distinguished member of the HOF, call you out on it quite explicitly.

Even used the word *asterisk*
Al Davis is "distinguished" much like Jeffrey Dahmer's "distinguished;" Davis accusing someone ELSE of cheating is like bin Laden accusing someone of murder. Which is why none of his coaches, players or fans echoed his charge: It was BS sour grapes and they all knew it.


Just because you Dont break the rules doesn't mean you're not a troll...
Remember when you had to tell folks in Tneds site news thread to stop turning it into a Joel thread? I was in bed then; hadn't even seen the darned thing, let alone posted in it.

[Thnikkaman]

Dude, calm down. You are getting irrational.

No, pi is irrational, I'm calling a delusional spade a delusional spade.

[SR]

Calm down dude! Those asterisks are going to wreak havoc on your blood pressure!

You're right. Sorry.

[SR]

No, pi is irrational, I'm calling a delusional spade a delusional spade.

Pi? Like 3.14? Or like Life of Pi?

[Thnikkaman]

Pi? Like 3.14? Or like Life of Pi?

I meant 3.14, but Life of Pi is pretty irrational as well. So both?

[Joel]

What in the ever loving ****....
Some people barely qualify as such, and it's worse online because everyone can remain anonymous and need never fear a punch in the mouth from across a continent. Everyone who thinks heterodox opinions posted at length and often is an example of that my congratulations on a VERY sheltered e-life.

[Thnikkaman]

Some people barely qualify as such, and it's worse online because everyone can remain anonymous and need never fear a punch in the mouth from across a continent. Everyone who thinks heterodox opinions posted at length and often is an example of that my congratulations on a VERY sheltered e-life.

Bacon ipsum dolor amet beef ribs corned beef sirloin meatloaf tongue frankfurter tail pork shank flank fatback jerky ribeye short ribs strip steak. Porchetta turkey shank andouille pig pastrami, jerky biltong sirloin venison tenderloin doner bresaola rump chuck. Ball tip doner ham prosciutto, shank boudin bacon beef pork belly bresaola jowl tongue short ribs capicola. Cow andouille biltong, kielbasa jowl ball tip chicken pastrami pork belly short ribs filet mignon shankle porchetta. Filet mignon fatback kielbasa short ribs meatloaf.

Shankle pork loin sausage pancetta kevin shoulder. Tenderloin fatback bacon, pastrami rump chicken flank ball tip. Pancetta short loin landjaeger prosciutto, shoulder ground round ball tip pork belly swine capicola bresaola porchetta biltong andouille. Pork ball tip short ribs jerky bresaola shoulder frankfurter capicola drumstick bacon cow. Tenderloin beef hamburger beef ribs, chuck filet mignon chicken strip steak tail.

Pork loin landjaeger turkey t-bone. Flank tenderloin doner pastrami ham hock. Tongue ground round ham hock shank shoulder pork loin kielbasa ribeye corned beef chicken. Venison beef ribs bresaola ham hock chicken, ball tip pork chop turkey tri-tip capicola kevin meatloaf tenderloin. Jowl cow bresaola hamburger, corned beef frankfurter capicola spare ribs ground round. Porchetta frankfurter jerky, landjaeger chicken hamburger tri-tip doner chuck cow shank shoulder kevin. Short loin landjaeger tri-tip jowl tenderloin hamburger sirloin filet mignon.

Leberkas jerky chuck drumstick pig meatball pork belly sirloin. Venison chicken ham hock, bresaola meatball jowl capicola cow pork chop filet mignon sirloin fatback. Kielbasa swine beef ribs, tongue ground round porchetta jowl turkey bresaola. Chicken boudin swine chuck.

Beef ribs corned beef landjaeger leberkas, strip steak fatback pastrami bacon. Ham hamburger leberkas salami jowl pork chop tri-tip. Corned beef swine meatball, tongue sausage tail tri-tip porchetta bresaola beef biltong t-bone pork. Spare ribs ribeye pork kielbasa turkey andouille. Pastrami leberkas venison ham hock turducken tongue andouille short loin t-bone drumstick kielbasa turkey ball tip filet mignon ribeye.

[GEM]

Some people barely qualify as such, and it's worse online because everyone can remain anonymous and need never fear a punch in the mouth from across a continent. Everyone who thinks heterodox opinions posted at length and often is an example of that my congratulations on a VERY sheltered e-life.

Not sure anyone here has ever threatened you with physical violence. :rolleyes: I highly doubt you would punch any of the guys here in the mouth in person or not.

And not even sure what the hell you just said answered OB's what in the **** to your beyond nutso post.

[GEM]

Al Davis is "distinguished" much like Jeffrey Dahmer's "distinguished;" Davis accusing someone ELSE of cheating is like bin Laden accusing someone of murder. Which is why none of his coaches, players or fans echoed his charge: It was BS sour grapes and they all knew it.


Remember when you had to tell folks in Tneds site news thread to stop turning it into a Joel thread? I was in bed then; hadn't even seen the darned thing, let alone posted in it.

I didn't mention who I posted that to, but if you feel guilty enough to respond..that's on you.

[WTE]

I didn't mention who I posted that to, but if you feel guilty enough to respond..that's on you.

Kick his ass, Seabass!

[Joel]

Not sure anyone here has ever threatened you with physical violence. :rolleyes: I highly doubt you would punch any of the guys here in the mouth in person or not.
Never said anyone here threatened me with physical violence: The point was physical violence is generally an impossible threat ANYWHERE online, and nearly EVERYWHERE lets people post anonymously, so a lot of people pull a lot of outrageous crap they'd never DARE in person, because they'd 1) be identified and 2) get the crap kicked out of them.


And not even sure what the hell you just said answered OB's what in the **** to your beyond nutso post.
The point was NOTHING I've EVER done—online, in person or ANYWHERE—even comes close to what real trolls pull. However nutso it was, the cited incident happened, and at a particularly close and friendly site, too; it wasn't even the only time that guy and his little clique pulled something like that. Or take the other cited incident, when some chick got so worked up over an online argument her kid was having with another kid that she created a fake account and trolled so viciously and incessantly she finally killed herself. But, OK, sure, frequent, lengthy and unpopular criticisms of the team are just the same.

[Joel]

I didn't mention who I posted that to, but if you feel guilty enough to respond..that's on you.
Why would I feel guilty about something multiple OTHER people did while I was in bed asleep? THAT happened, too, and I wasn't even PRESENT—just the excuse invoked in absentia.

[Thnikkaman]

Never said anyone here threatened me with physical violence: The point was physical violence is generally an impossible threat ANYWHERE online, and nearly EVERYWHERE lets people post anonymously, so a lot of people pull a lot of outrageous crap they'd never DARE in person, because they'd 1) be identified and 2) get the crap kicked out of them.


The point was NOTHING I've EVER done—online, in person or ANYWHERE—even comes close to what real trolls pull. However nutso it was, the cited incident happened, and at a particularly close and friendly site, too; it wasn't even the only time that guy and his little clique pulled something like that. Or take the other cited incident, when some chick got so worked up over an online argument her kid was having with another kid that she created a fake account and trolled so viciously and incessantly she finally killed herself. But, OK, sure, frequent, lengthy and unpopular criticisms of the team are just the same.

'You must be,' said the Cat, 'or you wouldn't have come here.' Alice didn't think that proved it at all; however, she went on 'And how do you know that you're mad?' 'To begin with,' said the Cat, 'a dog's not mad. You grant that?' 'I suppose so,' said Alice. 'Well, then,' the Cat went on, 'you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad.' 'I call it purring, not growling,' said Alice. 'Call it what you like,' said the Cat. 'Do you play croquet with the Queen to-day?' 'I should like it very much,' said Alice, 'but I haven't been invited yet.' 'You'll see me there,' said the Cat, and vanished. Alice was not much surprised at this, she was getting so used to queer things happening. While she was looking at the place where it had been, it suddenly appeared again. 'By-the-bye, what became of the baby?' said the Cat. 'I'd nearly forgotten to ask.' 'It turned into a pig,' Alice quietly said, just as if it had come back in a natural way. 'I thought it would,' said the Cat, and vanished again. Alice waited a little, half expecting to see it again, but it did not appear, and after a minute or two she walked on in the direction in which the March Hare was said to live. 'I've seen hatters before,' she said to herself; 'the March Hare will be much the most interesting, and perhaps as this is May it won't be raving mad—at least not so mad as it was in March.' As she said this, she looked up, and there was the Cat again, sitting on a branch of a tree. 'Did you say pig, or fig?' said the Cat. 'I said pig,' replied Alice; 'and I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy.' 'All right,' said the Cat; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with

[BroncoJoe]

I swear he's got some kind of mental problem. There's just really no other explanation.

[Joel]

I swear he's got some kind of mental problem. There's just really no other explanation.
Yes, you've sent me multiple salutes alleging mental illness: I heard you the first time. How the Hell that's not a personal attack is beyond me, but let's just keep talking about how I'm a troll for discussing football when the (apparently) PROPER thing to do on a football site is tell other posters they're mentally ill. Were I half as unbalanced and intent on griefing people as you claim, I'd have reported that long ago instead of shrugging it off as par for the course.

[Thnikkaman]

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[BroncoJoe]

So, I didn't mention anyone in my post, but someone replied.

I must be onto something.

[Joel]

So, I didn't mention anyone in my post, but someone replied.

I must be onto something.
Just because you used a personal pronoun instead of my name doesn't mean you weren't talking about me—especially sending a salute telling me to get mental help.

[BroncoJoe]

f54HHWY6GFk

[Timmy!]

Wait wait wait, OB was "Gemming" on webcam in here and I missed it?!

[OB]

Wait wait wait, OB was "Gemming" on webcam in here and I missed it?!

Um - NO!!!!!!!!!!

[Timmy!]

Um - NO!!!!!!!!!!

So you're saying I'm not too late. Awesome.
:D

[7DnBrnc53]

The point was NOTHING I've EVER done—online, in person or ANYWHERE—even comes close to what real trolls pull. However nutso it was, the cited incident happened, and at a particularly close and friendly site, too; it wasn't even the only time that guy and his little clique pulled something like that. Or take the other cited incident, when some chick got so worked up over an online argument her kid was having with another kid that she created a fake account and trolled so viciously and incessantly she finally killed herself. But, OK, sure, frequent, lengthy and unpopular criticisms of the team are just the same.

It seems that you get labeled a troll for stupid stuff on some sites. On that same thread, I just said that Elway wasn't carried by his team in Denver's SB wins, that one of the two INT's that he threw in those wins wasn't his fault, and that he was MVP in the second win. I got labeled a troll after I said that stuff.

[Shazam!]

Dual account for someone?

[OB]

:popcorn:

[Joel]

Dual account for someone?
Were I pathetic enough for something like that, I wouldn't waste time on a dual account when it could be better spent hanging myself. The truth is, "winning" online disputes isn't worth creating one account, let alone two. Nothing important EVER happened online: If it's important, it moves beyond the internet; if it doesn't, it's not important.

[Thnikkaman]

It seems that you get labeled a troll for stupid stuff on some sites. On that same thread, I just said that Elway wasn't carried by his team in Denver's SB wins, that one of the two INT's that he threw in those wins wasn't his fault, and that he was MVP in the second win. I got labeled a troll after I said that stuff.

No, you get labeled a troll for acting like one. But please, continue to reiterate how people on another board that you will link to again is badmouthing our team. That's going to make it all better.

[Cugel]

Every Patriots fan I know loves Cassel for what he did in 2008 going 11-5. But we all watched every game of that season and know exactly how it went down. NE did not have a very difficult schedule and they beat nearly every crappy team they played. They also lost to just about every good team they played. Hence, 11-5.
WTF? "Every Patriots fan I know loves Cassel for what he did in 2008 going 11-5"??? :huh:

Reality Check: Cassel was a loser. He SUCKED. He proved this by going to the Chiefs where he received a 6 year $62 million contract, and then playing his way out of a starting job in KC and onto the woeful Vikings, where he currently has 3 TDs and 4 Ints and a quarterback rating of 65.8.

In his 2008 season he managed to win 11 games and fail to make the playoffs for the only time in a decade, with basically the same team that won 18 games and the overwhelming favorite in the SB the season before. In short he failed with probably the best Patriots team of all time. The Patriots might well have won the SB in 2008 except for Brady's injury.

If there was any doubt about Cassel, you only have to look at the results in KC (where they dumped his sorry ass after the he had 10 TDs and 9 INTs in 2011 and 6 TDs and 12 INTs in 2012) and in Minn (11 TDs, 9 INTs in 2013).

Soon they will fire the coach and GM in Minnesota and the new GM will come in and get rid of Cassel and that will be the end of his career, and that's assuming he doesn't get shown the door earlier than that.

What are these Patriots fans smoking? Even in 2008 he had 21 TDs, and 16 turnovers (11 INTs and 5 fumbles).

[Cugel]

Do i think Brady is better than Elway? No. But i dont think Peyton is better than Elway either (overall). But Brady is damn good and one of the best for a reason. For me, i dont think it has to be a either/or when it comes to Brady, Elway, or Manning. All 3 are great QB's and all bring something a little different to the table. But shit, if we didnt have Manning i would love to have Brady as my QB here no question in my mind. I think on some level Tommy would be jizzing himself if he was playing with the kind of squad that Peyton is. I know, i know. That was a poor pun given Brady's love for tight ends.....

Let's be honest and admit the truth. Take the last SB. Either Brady or Manning would have lost that game because they are immobile and the Seahawks were able to get heavy pressure rushing just 4 DL. Elway could well have won it because his mobility would have negated a lot of the Seahawks pass-rush. Plus his arm strength would have penalized the Seahawks for playing in single man coverage on the outside against Decker and Thomas.

Remember that Elway could run to his right, stop and throw across his body 30 yards diagonally across the field to an open WR running down the left sideline - and he had so much arm strength and velocity that he could make that throw. Manning and most QBs in the league would never attempt it.

Elway was hands-down better than any QB in history because he combined freakish athletic ability with rare competitiveness and knowledge of the game. His career was masked by putting him in Dan Reeves' idiot system of playing conservative for 3 quarters and then having Elway lead a desperate last quarter come-back for over a decade. Try and imagine what Elway's numbers would have been if he'd had Shanahan for his entire career. He probably would have won as many championships as Terry Bradshaw.

This doesn't take away from what Manning and Brady have accomplished. Each is a first ballot HoFer. Maybe in 10 years if Aaron Rogers plays in another 4 SBs and wins another title or 2 we'll talk about him as being in the same category as Elway. Maybe Andrew Luck will get into that elite group. If Manning wins another SB or 2 before he retires, then HE'll be considered #1. But, as of now, Elway is preeminent.

[I Eat Staples]

Joel, some of those incidents you mentioned are not trolling. Trolling is posting purposefully provocative/ridiculous/offensive things just to get a reaction. There's a big difference between trolling and harassment, and the incidents you mentioned fall under the latter.

[7DnBrnc53]

Let's be honest and admit the truth. Take the last SB. Either Brady or Manning would have lost that game because they are immobile and the Seahawks were able to get heavy pressure rushing just 4 DL. Elway could well have won it because his mobility would have negated a lot of the Seahawks pass-rush. Plus his arm strength would have penalized the Seahawks for playing in single man coverage on the outside against Decker and Thomas.

Remember that Elway could run to his right, stop and throw across his body 30 yards diagonally across the field to an open WR running down the left sideline - and he had so much arm strength and velocity that he could make that throw. Manning and most QBs in the league would never attempt it.

Elway was hands-down better than any QB in history because he combined freakish athletic ability with rare competitiveness and knowledge of the game. His career was masked by putting him in Dan Reeves' idiot system of playing conservative for 3 quarters and then having Elway lead a desperate last quarter come-back for over a decade. Try and imagine what Elway's numbers would have been if he'd had Shanahan for his entire career. He probably would have won as many championships as Terry Bradshaw.

This doesn't take away from what Manning and Brady have accomplished. Each is a first ballot HoFer. Maybe in 10 years if Aaron Rogers plays in another 4 SBs and wins another title or 2 we'll talk about him as being in the same category as Elway. Maybe Andrew Luck will get into that elite group. If Manning wins another SB or 2 before he retires, then HE'll be considered #1. But, as of now, Elway is preeminent.

I think that Manning could go on almost any team and make them a lot better. However, Brady could not. I still think that his career should be called into question because of the chicanery employed by Bill Belichick and Ernie Adams that involved illegal taping and alternate radio frequencies. I also made a point on that other thread that Brady would have been banged-up and would have retired early if he was behind the lines that Elway was in the 80's.

[Joel]

Joel, some of those incidents you mentioned are not trolling. Trolling is posting purposefully provocative/ridiculous/offensive things just to get a reaction. There's a big difference between trolling and harassment, and the incidents you mentioned fall under the latter.
Not at all: Those cases were also offensive/provocatives posts with no goal but getting a reaction. The woman who drove a kid to suicide differs in being specifically targeted, but I assure you the other guy's an expert textbook troll: He hangs bait liberally for everyone, then savages anyone naïve enough to bite. He's got all the classic signs of sociopathy: Intelligent, charming and a master of spotting and exploiting anyones psychological weaknesses after just a few minutes casual conversation, but he doesn't seek out anyone: He just posts, chats and waits for the inevitable volunteer victims.

That ain't me; I'm actually his antithesis in nearly every imaginable way.

[broncosinindy]

Footballs future is a junk ass website. Its not what it once was, that's for sure.

[broncosinindy]

The truth is that he gets ganged up on for being long winded and like a wolverine with lock jaw.I can appreciate Joel because he has something to say. A site I used to frequent the posters parroted, trolled, and couldn't be bothered to have a debate.and the meme's drove me crazy. I salute you joel

[7DnBrnc53]

Footballs future is a junk ass website. Its not what it once was, that's for sure.

It seems like a Tom Brady and Patriot love site at times, at least in the NFL General section.


I can appreciate Joel because he has something to say. A site I used to frequent the posters parroted, trolled, and couldn't be bothered to have a debate.and the meme's drove me crazy. I salute you joel

I agree.