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View Full Version : Keeping both Thomases will cost the Broncos. A lot.



Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2014, 11:50 AM
As tight end Julius Thomas was catching more touchdown passes than any other NFL player and wide receiver Demaryius Thomas was putting together the best four-game receiver stretch in team history, Broncos fans were left with one thought.

Pay the men!

The value of Peyton Manning's two most potent receiving targets seems to go up each week. Spare us the details, John Elway. Broncos fans don't want these guys to get away.

"It has to be done at some point," Julius Thomas said. "The contract ends after this season, so something has to get done, right? I'm just playing football, enjoying it. We have a good team. You can't worry about it."

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26799546/it-will-cost-plenty-denver-broncos-keep-both

Northman
10-26-2014, 11:51 AM
If it comes down to DT or JT you keep DT.

Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 12:02 PM
DT, Harris, then JT.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-26-2014, 12:27 PM
Welker will come off the books this year which should free up some $ for re-signing one of them.

I agree that our priorities should be DT, then Harris, then JT, but with the drafting of Roby, I could see them letting Harris test the market and bringing back DT and JT to keep weapons around Peyton and then Oz moving forward.

Joel
10-26-2014, 12:48 PM
Welker will come off the books this year which should free up some $ for re-signing one of them.
It's a question of HOW much, and how much the Thomases, Harris and (IIRC) Knighton can command. I love Welker, but—especially if he finally gets a Ring this year—it's very much in his best interest to hang it up while he's still verbal, and we've got Sanders to man that spot now. Paying big money for an oft-concussed 32-year-old slot WR fresh off a suspension just doesn't make sense, especially not at the expense of losing young stars just hitting their prime as the Thomases are.


I agree that our priorities should be DT, then Harris, then JT, but with the drafting of Roby, I could see them letting Harris test the market and bringing back DT and JT to keep weapons around Peyton and then Oz moving forward.
In a passing league where we (and many teams) spend more time in nickel than any other set, we need THREE starting CBs and a decent #4 for dime/injury. That is, even if Roby's legit for the long haul, he and Talib would still leave us a man short unless Webster's just as good, and in dime, as well as when ANY of them are hurt, we'd be a man short even if Roby AND Webster are solid starters. Remember last year, when we had at least one CB injured pretty much all year? We still had two solid ones just about that whole time, but remember the gaping thoroughly exploited hole wherever the third guy was missing?

If we get those three and Knighton back, I'll be VERY happy, but also a bit surprised, because that's three stars coming off rookie deals (or a tender, in Harris' case) plus a fourth whose "prove it" deal's worked out so well he's doing TV commercials. We can talk about "win from now on mode," but this is one of three big reasons we REALLY need to finish the championship job NOW.

Valar Morghulis
10-26-2014, 12:56 PM
It would be nice if PFM did an Elway or even a Brady and gave up a slice for the betterment of the team

DenBronx
10-26-2014, 12:56 PM
Welkers probably not going to be back and the cap will go up again.

We must keep both Thomases.

pnbronco
10-26-2014, 12:57 PM
If it comes down to DT or JT you keep DT.

I agree..... plus I want to keep Knighton. I just don't think we will have the money to keep both or they would have accepted that offers already. We finally have a D line that can make a difference and I'm loving it.

aberdien
10-26-2014, 01:14 PM
Eff JT.

DenBronx
10-26-2014, 01:31 PM
With Roby playing well I think Chris Harris will be the odd man out, unfortunately. Harris has been nothing short of spectacular on defense.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2014, 01:36 PM
Does anyone know how much the salary cap will increase in 2015?

Dapper Dan
10-26-2014, 02:38 PM
Top 5 base salaries for WRs 2014
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/wide-receiver/
5925

Top 5 base salaries for TEs 2014
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/tight-end/
5926

(Click photos to enlarge)

Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 02:50 PM
Manning is one of the single biggest factors in how good DT/JT are, I'd be embarrassed to ask him to take a paycut.

Dapper Dan
10-26-2014, 02:56 PM
Manning is one of the single biggest factors in how good DT/JT are, I'd be embarrassed to ask him to take a paycut.

Agreed. We should actually get rid of them both and pay him what we were going to pay them.

Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 03:08 PM
Agreed. We should actually get rid of them both and pay him what we were going to pay them.

And mortgage the future? Bold.

pnbronco
10-26-2014, 03:11 PM
Manning is one of the single biggest factors in how good DT/JT are, I'd be embarrassed to ask him to take a paycut.

You bet he does. Look how great Sanders looks now. He was good in Pits, but great here. While DT is amazing.....Manning can make good WR look great. So if Manning stays who knows what will happen with either of them.

Valar Morghulis
10-26-2014, 03:12 PM
Manning is one of the single biggest factors in how good DT/JT are, I'd be embarrassed to ask him to take a paycut.

I dont think we should ask him - but i dont believe Elway was asked in 97 - i think he suggested it in order to help cement his legacy

For me, the salary is all about status and respect, once you have enough status respect and money - but not enough championships, it is time to shave of a few mil from your contribution to the salary cap

Dapper Dan
10-26-2014, 03:12 PM
And mortgage the future? Bold.

Peyton Manning is the past, present, and future.

Valar Morghulis
10-26-2014, 03:14 PM
Chuck Norris is scared of PFM

Joel
10-26-2014, 03:19 PM
With Roby playing well I think Chris Harris will be the odd man out, unfortunately. Harris has been nothing short of spectacular on defense.
Again: Who plays the slot then? Since we'll be facing 3+ WRs most downs, and great slotmen are becoming as common as great primarys, we need THREE solid CBs; that's Roby, Talib and... Webster? Maybe? Roby's had HALF a good rookie season (and didn't look so hot against SF and SD,) so it's premature to just assume he can take Harris' spot with no drop, IMHO, but even if he could, we still need three, not two. Good grief, teams are shooting us trade offers for TONY CARTER because good slot CBs are so rare and vital; let's not just let the NFLs BEST walk without so much as a 7th round pick to show for it.

If the cap goes up as much as many seem to expect, maybe we can keep all three, perhaps even Knighton as well, by franchising Orange Julius as others have suggested. I hope we can do it SOMEHOW.

DenBronx
10-26-2014, 03:28 PM
It was 133 mill this year. Should increase another 7 mill making it 140 mill total.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2014, 03:32 PM
I dont think we should ask him - but i dont believe Elway was asked in 97 - i think he suggested it in order to help cement his legacy

For me, the salary is all about status and respect, once you have enough status respect and money - but not enough championships, it is time to shave of a few mil from your contribution to the salary cap

You are correct - #7 gave up money more than once - it was his idea. That is exactly what I would like to see Peyton do also. He has to have all the money he will ever need, and then some.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2014, 03:36 PM
John Elway has deferred a $1.45 million March 1 roster bonus for a year to give the Denver Broncos more space under their salary cap, The Rocky Mountain News reported Friday.

The newspaper said the quarterback's decision in late February helped the Super Bowl champions sign offensive guard Mark Schlereth and defensive end Neil Smith to new contracts.

Elway would have to be a member of the Broncos on March 1, 1999, to collect the roster bonus. However, the News reported that an NFL source said Elway's deferral does not mean the quarterback has decided to play in 1998.

Elway has said he plans to decide by June whether he will return for a 16th season with the Broncos.

It is the fourth time Elway has renegotiated his contract since signing a five-year, $28.56 million deal in 1996.

Last year, Elway agreed to rework his deal so the Broncos could sign Smith to a one-year contract. Smith since has signed a new four-year, $13.2 million contract.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elway-defers-145-million-bonus/

DenBronx
10-26-2014, 03:39 PM
With Roby playing well I think Chris Harris will be the odd man out, unfortunately. Harris has been nothing short of spectacular on defense.
Again: Who plays the slot then? Since we'll be facing 3+ WRs most downs, and great slotmen are becoming as common as great primarys, we need THREE solid CBs; that's Roby, Talib and... Webster? Maybe? Roby's had HALF a good rookie season (and didn't look so hot against SF and SD,) so it's premature to just assume he can take Harris' spot with no drop, IMHO, but even if he could, we still need three, not two. Good grief, teams are shooting us trade offers for TONY CARTER because good slot CBs are so rare and vital; let's not just let the NFLs BEST walk without so much as a 7th round pick to show for it.

If the cap goes up as much as many seem to expect, maybe we can keep all three, perhaps even Knighton as well, by franchising Orange Julius as others have suggested. I hope we can do it SOMEHOW.


The answer would be Roby. Put Roby in the slot and redraft another CB.

If the choices are to keep 2 of the 3 between JT, DT and Harris Jr its bye bye Harris. I want this offense to stay together for years and years and after Manning. It's extremely rare to find talent like JT at TE and DT is a freak of nature. No way in hell we let either of those guys walk.

Von Miller will get a new deal in the 2015 offseason too so keep that in mind. By 2017 the cap will be 170 mill and Manning most likely retired...but you never know because he hasn't lost a step at all.

Dapper Dan
10-26-2014, 03:50 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elway-defers-145-million-bonus/

Wow. 1.45 mill. That would be like 2 billion, including inflation. Thanks Obama..

BroncoWave
10-26-2014, 03:52 PM
We aren't losing either one. JT will be franchised since it's cheaper to franchise a TE, and we will re-sign DT. Then we'll revisit JT next year.

Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 03:57 PM
Elway deferred money, he didn't take a paycut. Besides that, it's not just cap space that will cause Denver to lose a Thomas, they have just over $30 under the 2015 cap last time I checked, it's the inevitable bidding war that one will get into because there's only one Franchise Tag. I sincerely doubt we see the Broncos massively overpaying a player with the other contract issues they have, which is where a bidding war will lead them.

If Denver can get one to sign before FA opens then they have the space. Harris and Potroast are another story, I would keep Harris over a TE but Denver has actually planned ahead at the CB position.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2014, 04:16 PM
Elway deferred money, he didn't take a paycut. Besides that, it's not just cap space that will cause Denver to lose a Thomas, they have just over $30 under the 2015 cap last time I checked, it's the inevitable bidding war that one will get into because there's only one Franchise Tag. I sincerely doubt we see the Broncos massively overpaying a player with the other contract issues they have, which is where a bidding war will lead them.

If Denver can get one to sign before FA opens then they have the space. Harris and Potroast are another story, I would keep Harris over a TE but Denver has actually planned ahead at the CB position.

from the article I posted on #7 deferring the 1.45 million bonus:


It is the fourth time Elway has renegotiated his contract since signing a five-year, $28.56 million deal in 1996.

7DnBrnc53
10-26-2014, 04:23 PM
Elway deferred money, he didn't take a paycut. Besides that, it's not just cap space that will cause Denver to lose a Thomas, they have just over $30 under the 2015 cap last time I checked, it's the inevitable bidding war that one will get into because there's only one Franchise Tag. I sincerely doubt we see the Broncos massively overpaying a player with the other contract issues they have, which is where a bidding war will lead them.

If Denver can get one to sign before FA opens then they have the space. Harris and Potroast are another story, I would keep Harris over a TE but Denver has actually planned ahead at the CB position.

That was the situation where people thought that Denver cheated the salary cap, when in actuality, they were against the collective bargaining agreement because of the deferred money with Elway and Davis for the new stadium.

Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 04:26 PM
from the article I posted on #7 deferring the 1.45 million bonus:


It is the fourth time Elway has renegotiated his contract since signing a five-year, $28.56 million deal in 1996.

I hear ha Carol, but what I'm saying is Elway didn't take a paycut, he still got all that money. I don't know if you and I are even disagreeing, I guess where I get confused is the "take less money", not that anyone has said that in this thread but it's how it comes across sometimes.

I see no chance of that happening and if I were Elway I wouldn't even ask.

As for deferring money, I'm sure it's helpful but it's still gonna cost this team some talent, be it in 2015 or down the road.

Btw, $29 mil? For John Elway? just wow.

Joel
10-26-2014, 04:37 PM
The answer would be Roby. Put Roby in the slot and redraft another CB.
I don't like any answer consisting of "dump the NFLs best slot CB for NOTHING and draft a #2 CB hoping he won't be a bust." We need three good ones, we've got three good ones: Why mess with that?


If the choices are to keep 2 of the 3 between JT, DT and Harris Jr its bye bye Harris. I want this offense to stay together for years and years and after Manning. It's extremely rare to find talent like JT at TE and DT is a freak of nature. No way in hell we let either of those guys walk.
We'd still have DT and Sanders without Orange Julius, and that wouldn't leave an exploitable hole for opponents. A defense only needs a single chink in its armor offense can use for leverage to rip apart the whole thing, but if we've got DT, Sanders and Latimer's as good as everyone seems to think he looks from the bench, Orange Julius is just one of many weapons Peyton Manning makes unstoppable. Ex-basketball players aren't as hard to find as they were when Gates and Gonzalez were rookies; maybe we can find one who can run block instead of being just a really big slot WR.

That's not to say JT's not a great receiver or that I don't want to keep him, but DT and Harris are both more valuable, IMHO, and Knighton probably is, too.


Von Miller will get a new deal in the 2015 offseason too so keep that in mind. By 2017 the cap will be 170 mill and Manning most likely retired...but you never know because he hasn't lost a step at all.
I have thought of Miller; his contract's already pretty chunky, but as arguably the best pass rusher in the NFL, it'll get downright bloated in 2015. The reality is as long as we're contenders this will be a recurring problem, because the cap won't let any team keep a roster full of Pro Bowlers long. Mannings number makes it more difficult, but he'll need bionics to be a starter at 41. Even the NFLs ironman QB sucked at 41, and Manning's never had that kind of power: At 41, his laser-arm won't have the rocket fuel to fit balls into narrow windows before a DB or LB closes and grabs them.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-26-2014, 06:13 PM
If Chris Harris gets paid what he's worth, then it's going to be a significant chunk of change. He's better than DRC who got a big deal from the Giants. He could ask for that type of $ and someone out there will pay it. I don't think it will be us.

Welker signed a 2 year/12 mil contract with a 4 mil signing bonus. So we'll probably clear about 6 million if we let him walk after the season. That should be enough to cover a new contract for JT. We also could franchise him and continue to negotiate if DTs deal is a back breaker.

DenBronx
10-26-2014, 06:14 PM
Why mess with that? Because Julius > Harris Jr in regards to the team. The Broncos just laughed at Seattle for trying to trade for him. If your theory is correct then the Broncos would and could have got draft choices for him now.

Elway will find a way. Im not the one stressing about it.

BroncoWave
10-26-2014, 06:19 PM
Why mess with that? Because Julius > Harris Jr in regards to the team. The Broncos just laughed at Seattle for trying to trade for him. If your theory is correct then the Broncos would and could have got draft choices for him now.

Elway will find a way. Im not the one stressing about it.

I'm not worried either. We'll probably lose someone (maybe Pot Roast since we are so deep at DT) but we will be fine. Elway will keep a talented, competitive product on the field.

Joel
10-26-2014, 08:59 PM
Why mess with that? Because Julius > Harris Jr in regards to the team. The Broncos just laughed at Seattle for trying to trade for him. If your theory is correct then the Broncos would and could have got draft choices for him now.
See, I'm not sure he is. We need a shutdown slot CB more than we need a 3rd receiving option, because defenses couldn't pour through a hole in our offense like offenses could pour through a hole in our D. I'd rather have Manning go back to getting Tammes name called a lot, or turn Green into an overnight star like so many before him, than worry about all the great slot receivers taking advantage of having no one to cover them, or stick Roby in the slot and get abused by #2 WRs because Webster's not ready and we can't clone Talib.

Speaking of Talib: He turns 29 two weeks after the Super Bowl; that's another reason I'd like to have 25-year-old Harris around when Talibs odometer rolls over for the last time.


Elway will find a way. Im not the one stressing about it.
I'm fairly confident of that, yeah. But right now it's hard to see a way that doesn't involve losing a Thomas Twin, Harris or Potroast, especially if we decide Franklin's worth paying.

SR
10-26-2014, 09:04 PM
If Chris Harris gets paid what he's worth, then it's going to be a significant chunk of change. He's better than DRC who got a big deal from the Giants. He could ask for that type of $ and someone out there will pay it. I don't think it will be us. Welker signed a 2 year/12 mil contract with a 4 mil signing bonus. So we'll probably clear about 6 million if we let him walk after the season. That should be enough to cover a new contract for JT. We also could franchise him and continue to negotiate if DTs deal is a back breaker.

Harris is not better than DRC.

BroncoWave
10-26-2014, 09:08 PM
Harris is not better than DRC.

I'm not so sure about that. This was tweeted by PFF recently:

"Sherman is also allowing one reception every 19.9 snaps in coverage. Which is the joint best mark along with Chris Harris Jr"

SR
10-26-2014, 09:10 PM
I'm not so sure about that. This was tweeted by PFF recently: "Sherman is also allowing one reception every 19.9 snaps in coverage. Which is the joint best mark along with Chris Harris Jr"

This year maybe. The Giants are dysfunctional.
Put DRC in Denver and he's one of the top corners in football. Harris is a stud, no doubt about it. I just feel like if DRC was still a Bronco he would have been Champ's heir.

Joel
10-26-2014, 09:53 PM
...
It depends; Roby has that job for the first few games, but the story is he "wanted a challenge" and asked the coaches to let him try the slot, and he did well there. From "watching the games" this past week, he hasn't looked as solid as he was in the first six, and these days it's not a given a #2 WR>slot WR, so don't be surprised to see Harris back there a lot through the rest of the season.

Not that switching them around changes my argument one whit: We still need 3 solid CBs to cover 3 solid WRs...

SR
10-26-2014, 10:08 PM
It depends; Roby has that job for the first few games, but the story is he "wanted a challenge" and asked the coaches to let him try the slot, and he did well there. From "watching the games" this past week, he hasn't looked as solid as he was in the first six, and these days it's not a given a #2 WR>slot WR, so don't be surprised to see Harris back there a lot through the rest of the season. Not that switching them around changes my argument one whit: We still need 3 solid CBs to cover 3 solid WRs. Must you pick a fight over EVERYTHING I say? I've already got a guy for that. ;)

I'm on MO's side.

Joel
10-26-2014, 10:11 PM
I'm on MO's side.
No kidding.

MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 10:11 PM
I'm on MO's side.

Well, Joel's on record. According to him Chris Harris is moving to the slot and Roby is moving outside.

What that has to do with the Thomases, you got me...

Joel
10-26-2014, 10:33 PM
Well, Joel's on record. According to him Chris Harris is moving to the slot and Roby is moving outside.

What that has to do with the Thomases, you got me...
Yes, "don't be surprised"="absolutely guaranteed to happen." What it has to do with the Thomases is Harris is a FA next year just like them, or did you miss the other 3 people discussing the pros and cons of keeping Harris instead of one of the Thomases? Two mentioned it before I did. You DO see other peoples posts, right?

Joel
10-26-2014, 10:42 PM
This year maybe. The Giants are dysfunctional.
Put DRC in Denver and he's one of the top corners in football. Harris is a stud, no doubt about it. I just feel like if DRC was still a Bronco he would have been Champ's heir.
The Giants have major issues, yeah, but I dispute that DRC would've been Champs heir after just a single year together: Harris is Champs heir, as surely as Champ was Darrell Greens. He spent his entire career with Champ before this year, and it frequently shows in myriad ways: Same shutdown coverage, same inescapable tackling, same selfless run support, same quiet non-flashy demeanor on and off the field. Same high character; he didn't need Fox nor Del Rio to sort his demons out for him as they did for DRC: He never had any, or if he did, long ago sorted them himself.

That's the kind of guy I want on my team for Roby, Webster and whoever comes after them to emulate in every way possible. He's at the top of his game and just entering his prime, because he's literally gotten better every year since we've had him, and after 4 years, that's pretty freakin' good. At 25, he's the kind of player you build a franchise around, not dump for NOTHING.

Joel
10-26-2014, 10:44 PM
Right, you added the "don't be surprised" so you can hedge your bet and never have to admit you're wrong. We're used to that.

I'm well aware of what the rest of the thread said. You brought me up in this thread, so I responded.
No, the guy who said he's on your side brought you up: I had someone else in mind (who took the same position as I on the DT>Harris>JT priorities, and before I voiced it) but named no names. I try not to call out folks by name, but am only human.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 02:04 AM
When pfm goes, Harris will be more critical to winning games than JT IMO.

JT is a luxury pfm makes viable. Not to say the next qb can't, but if someone had to go - I say it should be JT.

But even then, it won't be next year as he will be franchised.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 08:51 AM
93 receptions for 911 yards and 7 TD's.

That's the production we got from the Tamme/Dreessen combo in 2012. Which, to me, proves that having ONE "elite" TE in this offense for Peyton is not a mandatory luxury.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 08:56 AM
93 receptions for 911 yards and 7 TD's.

That's the production we got from the Tamme/Dreessen combo in 2012. Which, to me, proves that having ONE "elite" TE in this offense for Peyton is not a mandatory luxury.

Nor sure if we agree or disagree - but my point was that PFM does not require a blocking TE as much as perhaps OZ will due to his ability and quick distribution, i.e, with Manning, we can play to JT's strengths but with another QB - perhaps a Tamme/Dreesen/Green would be better for the team.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 08:59 AM
Nor sure if we agree or disagree - but my point was that PFM does not require a blocking TE as much as perhaps OZ will due to his ability and quick distribution, i.e, with Manning, we can play to JT's strengths but with another QB - perhaps a Tamme/Dreesen/Green would be better for the team.

I think we agree. While the TE is certainly used quite a bit by PM...I dont think it requires us having one that is elite as a receiver or as a blocker. If JT prices himself too high, there are other options on the market that would be more than adequate replacements.

SR
10-27-2014, 09:06 AM
93 receptions for 911 yards and 7 TD's. That's the production we got from the Tamme/Dreessen combo in 2012. Which, to me, proves that having ONE "elite" TE in this offense for Peyton is not a mandatory luxury.

I can get on board with this thought process.


Another thing to consider is that Peyton gets rid of the ball quicker than just about anyone. With a green QB like Oz, he will need the extra protection that a complete TE can offer.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 10:57 AM
I think a stud TE has proved to be more and more valuable in the NFL every day, and they are much more rare compared to very good WRs. Losing a player like JT would be a HUGE loss for this offense that wouldn't be easily replaced for any QB after Manning.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 11:01 AM
I think a stud TE has proved to be more and more valuable in the NFL every day, and they are much more rare compared to very good WRs. Losing a player like JT would be a HUGE loss for this offense that wouldn't be easily replaced for any QB after Manning.

It would create a need to make adjustments...but I dont think JT is the difference between winning or losing a championship. Manning and Denver would be fine with another option.

Slick
10-27-2014, 11:02 AM
Whatever happens with DT and JT they need to thank Peyton Manning. He's driven their value up quite a bit. I hope Decker sent him a thank you card at least.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:17 AM
It would create a need to make adjustments...but I dont think JT is the difference between winning or losing a championship. Manning and Denver would be fine with another option.

THe same thing could be said for DT as well. Plus, I'm not talking about when just Manning is here. We can franchise JT for a year and have him while Manning is in town. I'm talking about the need for top TEs is growing and growing, and for any QB after Manning could very easily need a stud TE over any other position.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 11:20 AM
THe same thing could be said for DT as well. Plus, I'm not talking about when just Manning is here. We can franchise JT for a year and have him while Manning is in town. I'm talking about the need for top TEs is growing and growing, and for any QB after Manning could very easily need a stud TE over any other position.

JT plays in a scheme that showcases his strengths.

Sans manning - that scheme changes and JT will not be the stud he is now.

He is hardly required to block, few teams can afford that.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:21 AM
Whatever happens with DT and JT they need to thank Peyton Manning. He's driven their value up quite a bit. I hope Decker sent him a thank you card at least.

That statement seems to be takign away from DT and JTs talent. I don't know if you meant that, but its evident that their talent is there, Manning or not.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 11:21 AM
That statement seems to be takign away from DT and JTs talent. I don't know if you meant that, but its evident that their talent is there, Manning or not.

Manning sure emphasises their skills though

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:22 AM
JT plays in a scheme that showcases his strengths.

Sans manning - that scheme changes and JT will not be the stud he is now.

He is hardly required to block, few teams can afford that.

I think this statement is completely untrue. Obviously the better QBs you have the better your team is, but to say that JT isn't a stud at WR just because Manning is throwing the ball is incorrect at all levels. ANY team that would have JT on the team would have him playing the exact role he is now, because he's a nightmare to match up with defensively.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 11:23 AM
I think this statement is completely untrue. Obviously the better QBs you have the better your team is, but to say that JT isn't a stud at WR just because Manning is throwing the ball is incorrect at all levels. ANY team that would have JT on the team would have him playing the exact role he is now, because he's a nightmare to match up with defensively.

Ok - I agree to disagree

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:25 AM
Manning sure emphasises their skills though

you mean by throwing a more accurate pass??? Yeah, of course. At the same time, Manning has never thrown for a season record breaking number of TDs before having DT and JT on the team, so I could say that those two emphasise Manning's skills, as well....right?

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:26 AM
Ok - I agree to disagree

Fair enough :beer:

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 11:27 AM
you mean by throwing a more accurate pass??? Yeah, of course. At the same time, Manning has never thrown for a season record breaking number of TDs before having DT and JT on the team, so I could say that those two emphasise Manning's skills, as well....right?

Manning broke his own record - from when he did not have them

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 11:27 AM
I think this statement is completely untrue. Obviously the better QBs you have the better your team is, but to say that JT isn't a stud at WR just because Manning is throwing the ball is incorrect at all levels. ANY team that would have JT on the team would have him playing the exact role he is now, because he's a nightmare to match up with defensively.

True...but I dont think that type of TE is as much of an anomaly as it use to be. They may not have the same numbers (mostly due to the quality of their team as a whole), but the NFL is littered with the "new" TE's anymore. Graham, Gronk, JT, Gates, Gresham, Bennett, Green, Cameron, Davis, etc.

You could pretty much put any of those name...and a few more...in Denver and Manning would find a way to exploit the match-up problems.

Slick
10-27-2014, 11:29 AM
That statement seems to be takign away from DT and JTs talent. I don't know if you meant that, but its evident that their talent is there, Manning or not.

Look no further than Emmanuel Sanders. He's almost already at career highs in very category. Those guys are fabulous talents, but they're not as productive without Peyton Manning.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:36 AM
True...but I dont think that type of TE is as much of an anomaly as it use to be. They may not have the same numbers (mostly due to the quality of their team as a whole), but the NFL is littered with the "new" TE's anymore. Graham, Gronk, JT, Gates, Gresham, Bennett, Green, Cameron, Davis, etc.

You could pretty much put any of those name...and a few more...in Denver and Manning would find a way to exploit the match-up problems.

But you just listed the top TEs in the NFL. Couldn't I just say the same thing at WR and list the top WRs in exchange for DT and say they would have the same success? Look at all the stud WRs that are coming out of college.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:38 AM
Look no further than Emmanuel Sanders. He's almost already at career highs in very category. Those guys are fabulous talents, but they're not as productive without Peyton Manning.

I agree. Which was my point that not only could we replace JT, but its shown that DT could be replaced as well.

But that doesn't mean they can't be, or wouldn't be, successful without Manning. ANY HoF QB is going to throw more accurate passes, sure. But at the same time, the WR/TE talent helps the QB. I mean, I know Jerry Rice had both Young and Montana throwing him the ball, but he was probably good without them.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 11:39 AM
Manning broke his own record - from when he did not have them

Actually, he broke Brady's record.

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 11:45 AM
Actually, he broke Brady's record.

Ok mate

tripp
10-27-2014, 11:54 AM
Does anyone think maybe JT's numbers are exceptional because he is the product of a HoF QB? JT is still pretty raw if you think about it when it comes to his route running and blocking. He has good hands, but is he really worth the price of what Jimmy Graham and Gronk make? I don't know. It'll be sad to see him go if he does indeed leave because I have no doubt some team will pay that kind of money that he is asking, just like the Jets did with Eric Decker. However, I do believe we would be wise to pay DT as he is an elite WR in this league, and we find another TE suitable to our offence in free agency or in the draft. It's just a shame we couldn't of gotten more out of JT with his time here in Denver, unfortunately injury kept him out of play for a year.


EDIT: Noticed now someone had wrote essentially what I just said, but I'll leave it here anyway. I will add that Eric Decker had decent numbers even with Tebow at QB, same with DT. So although DT could be replaced, I don't think it'd be wise to let him walk as we need some continuity/familiarity in our offence to pick up where we left off from last year.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 11:56 AM
But you just listed the top TEs in the NFL. Couldn't I just say the same thing at WR and list the top WRs in exchange for DT and say they would have the same success? Look at all the stud WRs that are coming out of college.

If I can throw out 10 names at the position and they are all considered the best TE's in the game, then the position isnt quite as limited or as difficult to fill as some might think...making JT pretty replaceable. If not for his TD numbers the last 2 years, I dont think anyone would have him listed as a top 5 TE in the NFL.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 12:03 PM
If I can throw out 10 names at the position and they are all considered the best TE's in the game, then the position isnt quite as limited or as difficult to fill as some might think...making JT pretty replaceable. If not for his TD numbers the last 2 years, I dont think anyone would have him listed as a top 5 TE in the NFL.

He's only been on the field 2 years, chaz. To say that he's NOT one of the top 2-3 TEs in the game, at this point in time, is being blind. He is.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 12:06 PM
Does anyone think maybe JT's numbers are exceptional because he is the product of a HoF QB? JT is still pretty raw if you think about it when it comes to his route running and blocking. He has good hands, but is he really worth the price of what Jimmy Graham and Gronk make? I don't know. It'll be sad to see him go if he does indeed leave because I have no doubt some team will pay that kind of money that he is asking, just like the Jets did with Eric Decker. However, I do believe we would be wise to pay DT as he is an elite WR in this league, and we find another TE suitable to our offence in free agency or in the draft. It's just a shame we couldn't of gotten more out of JT with his time here in Denver, unfortunately injury kept him out of play for a year.


EDIT: Noticed now someone had wrote essentially what I just said, but I'll leave it here anyway. I will add that Eric Decker had decent numbers even with Tebow at QB, same with DT. So although DT could be replaced, I don't think it'd be wise to let him walk as we need some continuity/familiarity in our offence to pick up where we left off from last year.

I think the fact that he's only been on the field 2 years, and is this raw, shows just how good he is. He's already a top 3 TE in the NFL and will demand Graham type money. His speed and ability to get open from defenders isn't Manning's doing, its his. Which is why I'm ONLY pointing out that for a young QB (someone after Manning).... his presence would be paramount to developement of the QB.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 12:08 PM
I agree. Which was my point that not only could we replace JT, but its shown that DT could be replaced as well.

But that doesn't mean they can't be, or wouldn't be, successful without Manning. ANY HoF QB is going to throw more accurate passes, sure. But at the same time, the WR/TE talent helps the QB. I mean, I know Jerry Rice had both Young and Montana throwing him the ball, but he was probably good without them.

In my opinion, the thing that makes DT a little more irreplaceable is his YAC stats. Lead all WR's in 2013 and leads all WR's this year. It's one thing to have a guy that can catch the ball...but another to have one that consistently makes things happen once he does.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 12:09 PM
I think the fact that he's only been on the field 2 years, and is this raw, shows just how good he is. He's already a top 3 TE in the NFL and will demand Graham type money. His speed and ability to get open from defenders isn't Manning's doing, its his. Which is why I'm ONLY pointing out that for a young QB (someone after Manning).... his presence would be paramount to developement of the QB.

I think Top 3 is a bit liberal.

BroncoJoe
10-27-2014, 12:14 PM
I want both back, but if we can only keep one, I'll take DT. Our backup TE's aren't as good as JT, but adequate. DT is one of a kind IMO.

tripp
10-27-2014, 12:19 PM
I think the fact that he's only been on the field 2 years, and is this raw, shows just how good he is. He's already a top 3 TE in the NFL and will demand Graham type money. His speed and ability to get open from defenders isn't Manning's doing, its his. Which is why I'm ONLY pointing out that for a young QB (someone after Manning).... his presence would be paramount to developement of the QB.

It could be, and I've always admired his speed, for a big guy he can move. I always think of that TD against the Chargers in San Diego last year. I just think a TE like Scott Chandler, Heath Miller would be fine in our type of offence, who can block, and who has relative good hands. It'd be a down grade, but you have to pick your poison. My way of thinking is, you're receiver is only as good as the QB throwing him the ball. You can have all-pro receivers but if you have a crap QB, you're not going to go have good numbers regardless.

DenBronx
10-27-2014, 12:20 PM
But you just listed the top TEs in the NFL. Couldn't I just say the same thing at WR and list the top WRs in exchange for DT and say they would have the same success? Look at all the stud WRs that are coming out of college.

If I can throw out 10 names at the position and they are all considered the best TE's in the game, then the position isnt quite as limited or as difficult to fill as some might think...making JT pretty replaceable. If not for his TD numbers the last 2 years, I dont think anyone would have him listed as a top 5 TE in the NFL.


Lol

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 12:22 PM
He's only been on the field 2 years, chaz. To say that he's NOT one of the top 2-3 TEs in the game, at this point in time, is being blind. He is.

I disagree. We had two VERY average TE's replicate his stats before he became the starter. If not for his gaudy TD numbers (which everyone in Denver ends up with), he's just another TE. I look at it from the perspective of surrounding talent. Could 20 other players put up similar numbers if in the same situation as JT? Probably so.

I'd offer him 7 mil per year. Take it or leave it.

Joel
10-27-2014, 12:36 PM
True...but I dont think that type of TE is as much of an anomaly as it use to be. They may not have the same numbers (mostly due to the quality of their team as a whole), but the NFL is littered with the "new" TE's anymore. Graham, Gronk, JT, Gates, Gresham, Bennett, Green, Cameron, Davis, etc.

You could pretty much put any of those name...and a few more...in Denver and Manning would find a way to exploit the match-up problems.
That's a lot of it, and calling Orange Julius a "WR" is indicative:

1) He's not a "complete TE" like those SR referenced, he's purely a receiving TE (though his blocking slightly improved the last couple games.)
2) With Gonzalez retired and Gates nearing it, basketball players turned TE aren't as rare as when those guys were rookies: There are PLENTY of other big speedy TE receivers—and some can even BLOCK!

We can't plug-and-play the NFLs best slot CB (maybe best CB PERIOD) the same way, and franchising a CB would cost a LOT more than franchise tagging a TE. Tag JT, release Welker and hope the difference plus the prospective cap expansion is enough to re-sign DT, Harris and Knighton. And, as much as I'd hate to lose Knighton (our other DTs are good, but I'm not sure any are as dominant,) DT and Harris are the guys I want to lock into big contracts now, because they're only in their mid-twenties, so they could play out a long contract at an elite level if they stay healthy; Knighton's too old for that.

That's a big part of the arithmetic here: Smart players know the window between semi-mandatory rookie and aging vet contracts is very brief, so that's when they must cash in while they can to maintain their lifestyle in retirement. That's where DT and Harris are, and Orange Julius and Miller are nearing, but finding a way to pay them now ensures a strong core team for many years after Mannings retirement. With apologies to Belicheat and Carroll, there's simply NO better blueprint for "win from now on."

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 12:36 PM
I disagree. We had two VERY average TE's replicate his stats before he became the starter. If not for his gaudy TD numbers (which everyone in Denver ends up with), he's just another TE. I look at it from the perspective of surrounding talent. Could 20 other players put up similar numbers if in the same situation as JT? Probably so.

I'd offer him 7 mil per year. Take it or leave it.

Me too - and I love the way elway basically does that, then moves on. Quickly.

Remember DRC!

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 12:45 PM
Me too - and I love the way elway basically does that, then moves on. Quickly.

Remember DRC!

Could happen again. Make a final offer to JT and if he hesitates...have Cameron, Clay, Daniels, etc. on the other line.

Joel
10-27-2014, 12:52 PM
It could be, and I've always admired his speed, for a big guy he can move. I always think of that TD against the Chargers in San Diego last year. I just think a TE like Scott Chandler,
It keeps coming back to "for a 250+ lb. WR, he's lightning fast." That's true—but he's NOT a WR. Vernon Davis is fast and physical too; he's also a very good blocker: That's why he's a top TE. As a TIGHT END, the best thing I can say about Orange Julius is TEs make far less than WRs, so using him like a slot WR but franchise-tagging him as a TE would save a ton of cash.


Heath Miller would be fine in our type of offence, who can block, and who has relative good hands. It'd be a down grade, but you have to pick your poison. My way of thinking is, you're receiver is only as good as the QB throwing him the ball. You can have all-pro receivers but if you have a crap QB, you're not going to go have good numbers regardless.
I'm just glad someone else made my old point Dreesen/Tammes blocking AND receiving were worth as much as JTs receiving alone. He whiffed blocks that caused turnovers against Indy AND Washington last year, until we finally put Dreesen in against Washington; result: Manning had time to throw and we converted a pair of 4th downs on a drive where we pulled even with a 4th and G TD catch: By Joel Dreesen.

Julius Thomas is a valuable and often lethal weapon, but far more replaceable than DT or Harris, and has serious deficiencies many potential replacements lack.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-27-2014, 12:58 PM
I don't know how you can use the argument that JT's success is just as much Manning's doing as his own without lumping all the other "elite" TEs into that group. Gronk has Brady, Graham has Brees, Gates has Rivers. It's not like any of them is operating in a vacuum and making Geno Smith or Ryan Fitzpatrick look all world. All the "Elite" TEs have "Elite" passers delivering the ball to them. Heck, right now the only guy I'd consider an "elite" passer that doesn't have an "elite" TE is Aaron Rodgers.

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 01:12 PM
I don't know how you can use the argument that JT's success is just as much Manning's doing as his own without lumping all the other "elite" TEs into that group. Gronk has Brady, Graham has Brees, Gates has Rivers. It's not like any of them is operating in a vacuum and making Geno Smith or Ryan Fitzpatrick look all world. All the "Elite" TEs have "Elite" passers delivering the ball to them. Heck, right now the only guy I'd consider an "elite" passer that doesn't have an "elite" TE is Aaron Rodgers.

I think the argument leans more towards the fact there would/could be more TE's that fall into the "elite" conversation if they played with top QB's. Cameron, Rudolph, Reed, Bennett, Olsen, Clay...

And then the younger bunch that have all the talent in the world to be there one day...Eifert, Ertz, Amaro, Kelce, etc.

Dreadnought
10-27-2014, 01:24 PM
I think the argument leans more towards the fact there would/could be more TE's that fall into the "elite" conversation if they played with top QB's. Cameron, Rudolph, Reed, Bennett, Olsen, Clay...

And then the younger bunch that have all the talent in the world to be there one day...Eifert, Ertz, Amaro, Kelce, etc.

Exactly. Some of these guys have had complete stiffs throwing to them and produced anyways. That doesn't say they are an upgrade over JT in pure terms, but who knows what Jordan Cameron or Jace Amaro could do with a PMFM?

CoachChaz
10-27-2014, 03:17 PM
Exactly. Some of these guys have had complete stiffs throwing to them and produced anyways. That doesn't say they are an upgrade over JT in pure terms, but who knows what Jordan Cameron or Jace Amaro could do with a PMFM?

Agree 100%. These guys are out there and more abundant than we think. JT was a late round pick from Portland State. To think he is unique is ridiculous.

Joel
10-27-2014, 03:42 PM
Agree 100%. These guys are out there and more abundant than we think. JT was a late round pick from Portland State. To think he is unique is ridiculous.
To be fair, he was only a late round pick because he only played a year of college ball, with a season-ending injury; had he been healthy and had a full college resume, he'd have gone a lot higher.

On the other hand, issues with his blocking and route-running probably wouldn't exist if he'd had a full college career, so replacing him with another good receiving TE might eliminate those problems.

tripp
10-27-2014, 04:32 PM
It keeps coming back to "for a 250+ lb. WR, he's lightning fast." That's true—but he's NOT a WR. Vernon Davis is fast and physical too; he's also a very good blocker: That's why he's a top TE. As a TIGHT END, the best thing I can say about Orange Julius is TEs make far less than WRs, so using him like a slot WR but franchise-tagging him as a TE would save a ton of cash.


I'm just glad someone else made my old point Dreesen/Tammes blocking AND receiving were worth as much as JTs receiving alone. He whiffed blocks that caused turnovers against Indy AND Washington last year, until we finally put Dreesen in against Washington; result: Manning had time to throw and we converted a pair of 4th downs on a drive where we pulled even with a 4th and G TD catch: By Joel Dreesen.

Julius Thomas is a valuable and often lethal weapon, but far more replaceable than DT or Harris, and has serious deficiencies many potential replacements lack.



Bottom line is, the Broncos and Peyton Manning do not NEED an elite *receiving* TE to win games or be the key to their success. Plug in Travis Kelce or anyone else and you will see virtually the same results. You're more hard pressed to see a great route runner with exceptional speed who can bully CB's like DT, than you can with a receiving TE that can move the chains. I would put resigning Chris Harris at the same level as resigning DT.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 04:33 PM
well. the same "There are a ton out there" could be said for WR as well.

I want to be very clear. My stance is that the QB is the MOST important player to make a team a SB contender (obviously). If you have a Manning/Brees/Brady/Luck...then every player on the offense is better. Everyone catching, running, and blocking is better for it. That's why having a top QB is so important in the NFL today. If you have a QB like..say.. Tebow, then you would need MUCh better players at the skill positions to make up for the lack of skill at the QB position.

So a "Manning" doesn't need elite talent at WR nor TE, because he can make the "average" WR or TE that much better simply by the reads and placement of the ball. However, as I was saying...if you don't have the Elite QB, the other skill positions need to be better. I'm not so much advocating that we should keep JT over DT, as I am pointing out that it's not simply a 'given' that DT would be better for a young QB.

Personally, I'm taking Manning out of the equation because I've been thinking "past" Manning. Its not such a clear line as to what is more important to a young QB, a stud WR or a stud TE. A stud TE is harder to match-up with for the defenses, thus, they have a tendency to be the "security blanket" to a young QB looking for those tough first downs. When you have an Elite QB, some might consider them (a top TE) to be a "luxury" when you already have top talent on the outside. But we won't always have Manning.

Brees has had some pretty damn good WRs on the outside, and I'm betting he wouldn't let Graham go for any of them. I'm betting Rivers wouldn't have traded away Gates for any of the WRs he's had. Considering those are the kind of guys that can get the ball to "anyone" and make them better, then it says a lot as to how a young QB (that most probably doesn't have the kind of skill that Brees and Rivers has) would think about a stud TE.

Ravage!!!
10-27-2014, 04:35 PM
Agree 100%. These guys are out there and more abundant than we think. JT was a late round pick from Portland State. To think he is unique is ridiculous.

Brady was a late round pick.. Terrell Davis... Shannon Sharpe.......................

Valar Morghulis
10-27-2014, 04:56 PM
Brady was a late round pick.. Terrell Davis... Shannon Sharpe.......................

Exactly - there are lots out there

Joel
10-27-2014, 05:12 PM
well. the same "There are a ton out there" could be said for WR as well.
Except that's not really true. Maybe we could make a list of 6'3" 230 lb. WRs who run a 4.38 40 and crisp routes with equally soft hands and the ability to juke OR run over DBs, but I doubt it would run to double digits like the list of TEs good enough to fill (or even improve on) Orange Julius' role. DEMARYIUS Thomas is The Compleat WR; Megatron's on the same level, but no one else comes to mind, and if we had Megatron money we wouldn't be facing hard choices next year.

JULIUS Thomas is NOT a complete TE: He's fast, powerful and has nice hands, but his routes are still as ragged as one would expect of a guy who played one year of college football and missed most of his first two pro seasons due to injury, and his blocking's abysmal—DT's a better run blocker than JT, and HE'S THE WR! Paying through the nose to keep a "TE" who's really just a big fast slot WR when we've already GOT a big fast outside WR who runs better routes and blocks better would only make sense if we switched DT to TE and JT to WR (for the record: Yes, that would be insane, even though both have the talents.)

I wouldn't give up Megatron for Vernon Davis—and Davis is an excellent rather than poor blocker.

I want to be very clear. My stance is that the QB is the MOST important player to make a team a SB contender (obviously). If you have a Manning/Brees/Brady/Luck...then every player on the offense is better. Everyone catching, running, and blocking is better for it. That's why having a top QB is so important in the NFL today. If you have a QB like..say.. Tebow, then you would need MUCh better players at the skill positions to make up for the lack of skill at the QB position.


Personally, I'm taking Manning out of the equation because I've been thinking "past" Manning. Its not such a clear line as to what is more important to a young QB, a stud WR or a stud TE. A stud TE is harder to match-up with for the defenses, thus, they have a tendency to be the "security blanket" to a young QB looking for those tough first downs. When you have an Elite QB, some might consider them (a top TE) to be a "luxury" when you already have top talent on the outside. But we won't always have Manning.
That's a very valid point, and I agree that's how we should be thinking whe re-signing top weapons in their mid-twenties, because we're talking top money for guys who'll be the Pro Bowl core of our team long after Mannings pension starts. But if I'm trying to develop a raw young franchise QB, I'd rather have an elite go-to #1 WR who can catch screens when that QB needs to avoid a blitz and has experience trying to haul in throws from a certain OTHER raw young QB. Much more educational and reliable than a TE who can't block and runs rough routes, however well he catches or runs over tacklers.

I'll realize it's ultimately a matter of opinion and preference, but that's very strongly mine. Most teams have three times as many WRs as TEs on the field at any given time, but pay the WRs much more because they're WORTH much more. If DT were the one-dimensional player and JT the one elite at every facet of his position, I could see the argument, but since the reverse is true: Give me the guy who's good at EVERYTHING at the more valuable position, not the guy who's elite at ONE part of his less valuable job but weak at ALL the rest.

Joel
10-27-2014, 05:14 PM
Brady was a late round pick.. Terrell Davis... Shannon Sharpe.......................
Two of those guys block and run cleaner routes than Orange Julius. Maybe all three; never evaluated Brady as a TE.

Joel
10-27-2014, 09:59 PM
That last Cowboys drive, Jason Witten just showed how replaceable and even UPGRADEABLE Orange Julius is: Yes, he got wide open and made a great long catch then run on the TD, but it was only possible because on the immediately preceding 2nd and 15 play he threw a great downfield block on a screen pass to get them to Washingtons 30. Julius Thomas could do the first, but not the second.

OB
10-28-2014, 09:27 AM
It's been said, DT has proven himself without PFM at the helm, while JT has not. I think it goes without saying (although its been said alot in the last 7 pages) that you have to keep DT over JT - there is no way JT has earned a top 5 salary as a TE yet, if that is what he is looking for I hope he doesnt get it from us - as much as I love him and want to keep the Thomas Twins I dont think he deserves that kind of salary yet.

And db - how is Manning our future (or our past for that matter) Maybe you were being sarcastic?

The only thing PFM is playing for is the ring - he doesn't need the money or want the money - he only wants the ring - therefore, I hope he does whats best for the team when it comes to getting paid. I have faith that he will

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 10:16 AM
Except that's not really true. Maybe we could make a list of 6'3" 230 lb. WRs who run a 4.38 40 and crisp routes with equally soft hands and the ability to juke OR run over DBs, but I doubt it would run to double digits like the list of TEs good enough to fill (or even improve on) Orange Julius' role. DEMARYIUS Thomas is The Compleat WR; Megatron's on the same level, but no one else comes to mind, and if we had Megatron money we wouldn't be facing hard choices next year.

JULIUS Thomas is NOT a complete TE: He's fast, powerful and has nice hands, but his routes are still as ragged as one would expect of a guy who played one year of college football and missed most of his first two pro seasons due to injury, and his blocking's abysmal—DT's a better run blocker than JT, and HE'S THE WR! Paying through the nose to keep a "TE" who's really just a big fast slot WR when we've already GOT a big fast outside WR who runs better routes and blocks better would only make sense if we switched DT to TE and JT to WR (for the record: Yes, that would be insane, even though both have the talents.)

Yeah, but you are one to GREATLY exaggerate the lack of blocking or the fails therein. I don't think that ANY team is looking at JT as a blocker. The problems he causes for defenses isn't because of his blocking. You can complain about his blocking allllllll you want to, but JTs talents create havoc for DCs and open up the WRs all over the field, and it has nothing to do with how good (or not good) of a blocker he is. He's been a starter for 2 years, and is easily in the top 3 at the position. Can/will always get better at the blocking, but teams would take his lack of blocking to add his speed and catching abilities over blocking all-day-long. You can use the "not a complete" TE label all you want, but he's an elite TE in the NFL.... "complete or not."

Again, I'm not making a stance for a JT over DT signing. I don't think people are giving JT enough credit for what he offers this offense, however. Everyone loves DT, and rightfully so, he's a great WR and a great guy. So far, has shown nothing 'not' to like.


I wouldn't give up Megatron for Vernon Davis—and Davis is an excellent rather than poor blocker.
Yeah, No one would.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 10:19 AM
It's been said, DT has proven himself without PFM at the helm, while JT has not. I think it goes without saying (although its been said alot in the last 7 pages) that you have to keep DT over JT - there is no way JT has earned a top 5 salary as a TE yet, if that is what he is looking for I hope he doesnt get it from us - as much as I love him and want to keep the Thomas Twins I dont think he deserves that kind of salary yet.

And db - how is Manning our future (or our past for that matter) Maybe you were being sarcastic?

The only thing PFM is playing for is the ring - he doesn't need the money or want the money - he only wants the ring - therefore, I hope he does whats best for the team when it comes to getting paid. I have faith that he will

But he is a top 5 TE in the NFL. He's a top 3, and will get that kind of money. We might franchise tag him, though.

CoachChaz
10-28-2014, 10:39 AM
But he is a top 5 TE in the NFL. He's a top 3, and will get that kind of money. We might franchise tag him, though.

Tagging him is pretty much what I expect to happen...assuming we sign DT. I still have reservations about calling JT a top 3 TE...or even top 5. I think being in this offense is what makes him what he is and that there are other guys out there that could replicate his numbers in the same situation. Swap him and a guy like Cameron and the numbers stay the same in both scenarios...it's just the names that change. You could probably do it with some of the younger guys as well.

The TE position is becoming relevant in the passing game again and programs are finding players that can adapt to it. That being said...any TE with skill that plays with a guy like Manning or Brady or Brees, etc...could be considered a top 5 TE in the NFL.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 10:46 AM
Tagging him is pretty much what I expect to happen...assuming we sign DT. I still have reservations about calling JT a top 3 TE...or even top 5. I think being in this offense is what makes him what he is and that there are other guys out there that could replicate his numbers in the same situation. Swap him and a guy like Cameron and the numbers stay the same in both scenarios...it's just the names that change. You could probably do it with some of the younger guys as well.

The TE position is becoming relevant in the passing game again and programs are finding players that can adapt to it. That being said...any TE with skill that plays with a guy like Manning or Brady or Brees, etc...could be considered a top 5 TE in the NFL.

No. Not any but I hear what you are saying, and yes, the QB will certainly make any player better. That's why they are the top QBs. They make WRs better, as well. How many WRs in the NFL are actually better than they appear to be because of the QBs they've had? Of course QBs make the difference. I've heard people say that Terrel Davis wouldn't have been successful if he wasn't in Denver and our prolific rushing scheme that we had for so many years. Sometimes, talent just shows on the field. JT's talent shows on the field.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-28-2014, 10:57 AM
I think one of the things that needs to be brought up when we discuss who we should/shouldn't re-sign and why, is Elway's plan for the future. Make no mistake, Elway has his sights firmly set on this team after Manning retires. If we are able to keep both DT and JT, even at the cost of Harris or Knighton (or both) it will greatly improve the chances that Osweiler is successful when he does take the helm.

Just as the argument that an elite QB can make a TE look better than he is, it can be said that surrounding a young QB with talent will greatly improve his chances of success. I've got to believe that of all people, Elway knows the importance of having a dominant TE as a security blanket when the heat is on. I'm thinking that Elway is a big fan of the TE position... ;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-28-2014, 11:03 AM
DT is the most dominant receiving threat we've ever had in Orange and Blue, and it's not even close. I'll be pretty disappointed if we lose him.

BroncoJoe
10-28-2014, 11:05 AM
I think one of the things that needs to be brought up when we discuss who we should/shouldn't re-sign and why, is Elway's plan for the future. Make no mistake, Elway has his sights firmly set on this team after Manning retires. If we are able to keep both DT and JT, even at the cost of Harris or Knighton (or both) it will greatly improve the chances that Osweiler is successful when he does take the helm.

Just as the argument that an elite QB can make a TE look better than he is, it can be said that surrounding a young QB with talent will greatly improve his chances of success. I've got to believe that of all people, Elway knows the importance of having a dominant TE as a security blanket when the heat is on. I'm thinking that Elway is a big fan of the TE position... ;)

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but let's be honest. An excellent running game (OL / RB) pays larger dividends. In Elway's mind, IMO.

CoachChaz
10-28-2014, 11:14 AM
No. Not any but I hear what you are saying, and yes, the QB will certainly make any player better. That's why they are the top QBs. They make WRs better, as well. How many WRs in the NFL are actually better than they appear to be because of the QBs they've had? Of course QBs make the difference. I've heard people say that Terrel Davis wouldn't have been successful if he wasn't in Denver and our prolific rushing scheme that we had for so many years. Sometimes, talent just shows on the field. JT's talent shows on the field.

I'm not discounting that. What I'm saying is JT does have talent...but there are many more that have equal talent. They just dont play with Peyton Manning. So paying a hefty price for something you can replicate isn't something I would condone, personally.

DT, on the other hand, is a different story. You can find quality receivers, but very few have the skills he does after the ball is in his hands.

BroncoJoe
10-28-2014, 11:33 AM
I'm not discounting that. What I'm saying is JT does have talent...but there are many more that have equal talent. They just dont play with Peyton Manning. So paying a hefty price for something you can replicate isn't something I would condone, personally.

DT, on the other hand, is a different story. You can find quality receivers, but very few have the skills he does after the ball is in his hands.

Not only after the catch, but the catch itself. Dude can make grabs that make other WR/DB's squeal like little girls.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 11:34 AM
I'm not discounting that. What I'm saying is JT does have talent...but there are many more that have equal talent. They just dont play with Peyton Manning. So paying a hefty price for something you can replicate isn't something I would condone, personally.

DT, on the other hand, is a different story. You can find quality receivers, but very few have the skills he does after the ball is in his hands.

I hear what you are saying, and I'm disagreeing with your assessment of JTs talent compared to other players at TE.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 11:35 AM
I don't necessarily disagree with this, but let's be honest. An excellent running game (OL / RB) pays larger dividends. In Elway's mind, IMO.

Not in today's NFL passing league.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 11:35 AM
DT is the most dominant receiving threat we've ever had in Orange and Blue, and it's not even close. I'll be pretty disappointed if we lose him.

You are forgetting Brandon Marshall.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-28-2014, 11:40 AM
You are forgetting Brandon Marshall.

I did forget Marshall. He's close, but still consider DT to be more dominant. They're almost identical in size and strength, but DT is more explosive.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-28-2014, 11:42 AM
You are forgetting Brandon Marshall.

I just can't get onboard with this. Marshall was/is a beast, but I'd rather have DTs explosiveness combined with his size and the fact that he isn't an off-field distraction.

If we put DT up for trade, he'd garner 2 1st round picks, minimum. Marshall would never and has never garnered that much. That says a lot. Right now, DT is the arguably the 2nd best WR in the league (behind a healthy Megatron). Marshall may not even be considered top 10 anymore.

BroncoJoe
10-28-2014, 11:51 AM
Not in today's NFL passing league.

You still have to have a good/above average running game - even in "todays" NFL.

A good/top QB can make his receivers look way better than they really are (remember Elway's receivers?). You can't do that with a RB.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 11:55 AM
You still have to have a good/above average running game - even in "todays" NFL.

A good/top QB can make his receivers look way better than they really are (remember Elway's receivers?). You can't do that with a RB.

Well... we did for a number of RBs in Denver with Shanahan. I think in today's NFL a good passing attack sets up the run game. The rules are built around passing and protecting the passer and pass catcher. THe bigger penalties are evolved around the passing game. Because of that, more teams are spreading defenses out with more WRs and slots...bringing in receiving TEs to open up the middle. Teams are, as you've seen, moving more to the RBBC system, as RBs don't last. The RB in the NFL is diminishing in value. So I agree that a good running game is great to have, but the passing game is the NFL today.

BroncoJoe
10-28-2014, 11:59 AM
Well... we did for a number of RBs in Denver with Shanahan. I think in today's NFL a good passing attack sets up the run game. The rules are built around passing and protecting the passer and pass catcher. THe bigger penalties are evolved around the passing game. Because of that, more teams are spreading defenses out with more WRs and slots...bringing in receiving TEs to open up the middle. Teams are, as you've seen, moving more to the RBBC system, as RBs don't last. The RB in the NFL is diminishing in value. So I agree that a good running game is great to have, but the passing game is the NFL today.

Bottom line for me is, I think JT is more replaceable than DT. As mentioned before, I'd like to keep both (and I think we will have both for one more year) but if I had to choose, I'd take DT every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

Additional thought:

Did you watch the TD show on NFLN? At the end, they talked about all the RB's that came after him. I think it was Stink who said the 1,400 Gary got would have been 1,800 for TD. The 1,600 Portis got would have been 2,500 for TD. I thought that was interesting.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 12:03 PM
I just can't get onboard with this. Marshall was/is a beast, but I'd rather have DTs explosiveness combined with his size and the fact that he isn't an off-field distraction.

If we put DT up for trade, he'd garner 2 1st round picks, minimum. Marshall would never and has never garnered that much. That says a lot. Right now, DT is the arguably the 2nd best WR in the league (behind a healthy Megatron). Marshall may not even be considered top 10 anymore.

Well.. I don't believe for a moment that DT gets 2 first round picks. THAT BEING SAID, I'm not in ANY way trying to diminish DT's talent, because I'm not. He just wouldn't bring 2 1sts. When Marshall was traded, he was an absolutely beast. One that could/would catch 100 passes a season no matter who was passing the ball, and even when you knew he was getting the ball, would catch 22 passes in a game. He couldn't be stopped, and absolutely was the talent that DT is. So we will just have to disagree on the talent that Marshall had/has. I personally think he's just as good as DT. He doesn't have the speed, but he is more physical.

DT is great....I REALLY REALLY love this guy. Not only is he a great WR, but he represents the Broncos so well with his personality. I love that about him. But I don't know if I could place him above AJ Gree, Julio, or even Dez Bryant. But even if I said he was there, I don't think its such a separation that would garner 2 first round picks.

But I was just actually bringing it to light because Al said "not even close." So no matter who you put as the better WR.. its a close matchup. DT is awesome.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 12:06 PM
Bottom line for me is, I think JT is more replaceable than DT. As mentioned before, I'd like to keep both (and I think we will have both for one more year) but if I had to choose, I'd take DT every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

Additional thought:

Did you watch the TD show on NFLN? At the end, they talked about all the RB's that came after him. I think it was Stink who said the 1,400 Gary got would have been 1,800 for TD. The 1,600 Portis got would have been 2,500 for TD. I thought that was interesting.

I did not get to watch that.. I don't have cable so I will have to catch it on a re-run. But I agree with Stink. Talent separates itself. "Cream rises to the top"...so to speak. There is no doubt that Terrell Davis would have been successful no matter what NFL system he was in. He was just such a beast with speed. I loved watching him play.

BroncoJoe
10-28-2014, 12:12 PM
I did not get to watch that.. I don't have cable so I will have to catch it on a re-run. But I agree with Stink. Talent separates itself. "Cream rises to the top"...so to speak. There is no doubt that Terrell Davis would have been successful no matter what NFL system he was in. He was just such a beast with speed. I loved watching him play.

You've got to watch it. My only complaint about it is the hour wasn't nearly long enough.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 12:14 PM
You've got to watch it. My only complaint about it is the hour wasn't nearly long enough.

Hah.. I don't doubt that for a moment. Highlights of our Broncos most awesome team, all the while giving props and showcasing to my favorite RB of all time, I could watch that alllllll day!

SR
10-28-2014, 12:16 PM
You are forgetting Brandon Marshall.

At this stage, DT is better than Marshall was when he was a Bronco.

CoachChaz
10-28-2014, 12:23 PM
Well.. I don't believe for a moment that DT gets 2 first round picks. THAT BEING SAID, I'm not in ANY way trying to diminish DT's talent, because I'm not. He just wouldn't bring 2 1sts. When Marshall was traded, he was an absolutely beast. One that could/would catch 100 passes a season no matter who was passing the ball, and even when you knew he was getting the ball, would catch 22 passes in a game. He couldn't be stopped, and absolutely was the talent that DT is. So we will just have to disagree on the talent that Marshall had/has. I personally think he's just as good as DT. He doesn't have the speed, but he is more physical.

DT is great....I REALLY REALLY love this guy. Not only is he a great WR, but he represents the Broncos so well with his personality. I love that about him. But I don't know if I could place him above AJ Gree, Julio, or even Dez Bryant. But even if I said he was there, I don't think its such a separation that would garner 2 first round picks.

But I was just actually bringing it to light because Al said "not even close." So no matter who you put as the better WR.. its a close matchup. DT is awesome.

When did Marshall get traded for two 1st round picks? He was traded to Miami for two 2nd's and then to Chicago for two 3rd's.

That being said, I have no doubt that DT would net two 2nd's if we traded him today.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-28-2014, 12:24 PM
DT would demand more than Marshall did in a trade because Marshall had a reputation for being a head case.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 01:10 PM
When did Marshall get traded for two 1st round picks? He was traded to Miami for two 2nd's and then to Chicago for two 3rd's.

That being said, I have no doubt that DT would net two 2nd's if we traded him today.

I didn't say Marshall was traded for 2 1sts, and I agree that DT would garner 2 seconds.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 01:10 PM
DT would demand more than Marshall did in a trade because Marshall had a reputation for being a head case.

Maybe.

CoachChaz
10-28-2014, 01:20 PM
I didn't say Marshall was traded for 2 1sts, and I agree that DT would garner 2 seconds.

I guess I'm confused why you referenced the two 1st round picks, then. I must have missed a comment you quoted somewhere.

CoachChaz
10-28-2014, 01:21 PM
Maybe.

We could always call Jerry Jones (2 firsts for Galloway). But I guess he already has his own problems with trying to get Bryant and Murray signed under the cap

Ravage!!!
10-28-2014, 03:10 PM
We could always call Jerry Jones (2 firsts for Galloway). But I guess he already has his own problems with trying to get Bryant and Murray signed under the cap


Hah.. well... Maybe Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder.

tripp
10-28-2014, 04:12 PM
You are forgetting Brandon Marshall.

It's funny because when McD traded B-Marsh to Miami, and then we went out and drafted DT, I believe it was Mike Mayock saying how DT is very similar to B-Marsh and blah blah, never would've thought McD would draft an actually good player since I reflect on his time being here as nothing short of a disaster. But DT is very similar to B-Marsh without the off field issues. If there is one player on the Broncos right now that I'd like to see play his entire career here (with the exception of Ryan Clady) it's DT. It's rare when it happens, but it'd be something special.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-28-2014, 07:02 PM
I didn't say Marshall was traded for 2 1sts, and I agree that DT would garner 2 seconds.

I guess I'm confused why you referenced the two 1st round picks, then. I must have missed a comment you quoted somewhere.

I was the one who brought up draft pick value when comparing DT and Marshall. I stated that we could probably ask 2 first round picks for DT and some team would pony them up. I went on to state that nobody would've given up as much for Marshall based on his off the field issues.

Valar Morghulis
10-28-2014, 07:08 PM
I was the one who brought up draft pick value when comparing DT and Marshall. I stated that we could probably ask 2 first round picks for DT and some team would pony them up. I went on to state that nobody would've given up as much for Marshall based on his off the field issues.

I think a first and a second at least.

Marshall was a liability at the time, all the teams knew it, I think we were lucky to get what we got for him.

I do not think he should even be in the same conversation as DT either in terms of talent or potential.

Joel
10-29-2014, 02:18 AM
Yeah, but you are one to GREATLY exaggerate the lack of blocking or the fails therein.
Am I? The past couple games, JT's blocked much better, but still not WELL, and that's just a couple games: The rest of his career to date he's been an AWFUL blocker, as MANY people have rightly said.


I don't think that ANY team is looking at JT as a blocker. The problems he causes for defenses isn't because of his blocking. You can complain about his blocking allllllll you want to, but JTs talents create havoc for DCs and open up the WRs all over the field, and it has nothing to do with how good (or not good) of a blocker he is. He's been a starter for 2 years, and is easily in the top 3 at the position. Can/will always get better at the blocking, but teams would take his lack of blocking to add his speed and catching abilities over blocking all-day-long. You can use the "not a complete" TE label all you want, but he's an elite TE in the NFL.... "complete or not."
Right, he's a big fast WR who causes matchup nightmares—except he's NOT a WR, and wouldn't be terribly fast if he were.


Again, I'm not making a stance for a JT over DT signing. I don't think people are giving JT enough credit for what he offers this offense, however. Everyone loves DT, and rightfully so, he's a great WR and a great guy. So far, has shown nothing 'not' to like.

Yeah, No one would.
Well, there you go: While both are right at 250 lbs, JT runs a 4.64 and Vernon Davis runs a 4.38—and his blocking's as good as JTs is bad. So if we wouldn't give up a guy like DT or Megatron for Davis, we certainly shouldn't give him up for much lesser TE. Demaryius is not only a better WR than JT, he's a better TE; he runs cleaner routes AND blocks better.

I frankly doubt Elway will see it differently; the question's likely to be whether he wants to pay Revis money or Gronk money, and with Roby and Webster playing well he may decide Harris isn't worth it. I personally think that would be a mistake because 1) We need three solid CBs and 2) I believe Talib will be 31 when his contract ends, at which point a 29-year-old Harris will be VERY valuable.


I think one of the things that needs to be brought up when we discuss who we should/shouldn't re-sign and why, is Elway's plan for the future. Make no mistake, Elway has his sights firmly set on this team after Manning retires. If we are able to keep both DT and JT, even at the cost of Harris or Knighton (or both) it will greatly improve the chances that Osweiler is successful when he does take the helm.

Just as the argument that an elite QB can make a TE look better than he is, it can be said that surrounding a young QB with talent will greatly improve his chances of success. I've got to believe that of all people, Elway knows the importance of having a dominant TE as a security blanket when the heat is on. I'm thinking that Elway is a big fan of the TE position... ;)
The post-Manning future is precisely why I want to keep Harris as a far less replaceable player than Orange Julius. Again, Talib will be >30 when his contract ends, but Harris won't, and all the points about the growing importance of receiving TEs and slot WRs in an increasingly pass-oriented league apply to shutdown CBs, too: We need the ability to DEFEND against growing manifold threats, too.

Joel
10-29-2014, 02:24 AM
Long term, it makes the most sense to me to re-sign DT & Harris by spreading big signing bonuses over 5+ years, and franchise JT so we can deal with him in 2016 (it's not like re-signing Von Miller will be pricey, right?) I'd like to keep Knighton, but just don't know how many years a 330+ lb. NT has in him at 29, and we do have other good quality players there, especially if we were serious about releasing Big Vick because we're developing Unrein. I just don't know if we'll have the cash for all three, even with a boosted cap and releasing Welker.