View Full Version : Right Tackle Is a MESS
WARHORSE
10-21-2014, 05:26 AM
Imo, any other quarterback would be getting smoked. Only reason Peyton isnt on his back more is because he gets rid of the ball so quickly.
First person with talent that goes up against Cornish is gonna have a field day. Cornish has no strength, has horrible hands and only on the plays where someone wasnt putting effort into throwing him aside was Cornish OK.
No balance whatsoever imo.
He had a couple of run blocks that were average.
Other than that, the guy is a screen door.
Come playoffs, if we dont fix this, someone else will make us pay for it imo.
Valar Morghulis
10-21-2014, 05:41 AM
whats your solution mate?
swaiy
10-21-2014, 07:45 AM
Maybe he needs more time to get acclimated. He was getting worked but he hasn't been starting until that game .
DenBronx
10-21-2014, 08:34 AM
Why are we not putting Franklin back where he belongs? He was a monster at RT. Figure the G positions out as we go but we need our bookends with Clady and Franklin.
CoachChaz
10-21-2014, 08:59 AM
Why are we not putting Franklin back where he belongs? He was a monster at RT. Figure the G positions out as we go but we need our bookends with Clady and Franklin.
Agree...it's not like he's blowing anyone away at LG
Valar Morghulis
10-21-2014, 09:05 AM
So what should the O-Line look like with Franklin back at RT?
Ziggy
10-21-2014, 09:27 AM
Why are we not putting Franklin back where he belongs? He was a monster at RT. Figure the G positions out as we go but we need our bookends with Clady and Franklin.
Franklin does one thing at left guard that is critical to Manning's success. He keeps players from collapsing the pocket right into Manning's face. That far more critical than keeping a player from coming around the edge on Manning's right side. Manning can get rid of the ball with the rush coming around the edge. Manning can adjust to pressure from the right corner far better than pressure up the middle.
7DnBrnc53
10-21-2014, 09:28 AM
What about Ben Garland, shouldn't he be put at LG, with Franklin back at RT?
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-21-2014, 09:35 AM
Franklin does one thing at left guard that is critical to Manning's success. He keeps players from collapsing the pocket right into Manning's face. That far more critical than keeping a player from coming around the edge on Manning's right side. Manning can get rid of the ball with the rush coming around the edge. Manning can adjust to pressure from the right corner far better than pressure up the middle.
Chris Collinsworth seemed to think he has been playing well at LG. I know he had some nasty blocks in the running game Sunday night. Collinsworth said so far he has graded out as our best offensive lineman.
I think sometimes people assume that if they see someone come through A gap it must be Franklin's fault, but we don't know the assignments, and we don't watch the tape. It's likely some of the mishaps we thought were Franklin were actually on Ramirez.
Denver Native (Carol)
10-21-2014, 10:05 AM
Chris Collinsworth seemed to think he has been playing well at LG. I know he had some nasty blocks in the running game Sunday night. Collinsworth said so far he has graded out as our best offensive lineman.
I think sometimes people assume that if they see someone come through A gap it must be Franklin's fault, but we don't know the assignments, and we don't watch the tape. It's likely some of the mishaps we thought were Franklin were actually on Ramirez.
You beat me to it. During the game Sunday night, it was mentioned that every one felt Clady would grade out best, but so far, it has been Franklin.
OrangeHoof
10-21-2014, 10:07 AM
Ramirez seems to have regressed this year. I'm not even sure where we found this Cornish ham. Didn't we draft a swing lineman named Schumacher who was an OT at Michigan? Where is he?
Denver Native (Carol)
10-21-2014, 10:17 AM
Ramirez seems to have regressed this year. I'm not even sure where we found this Cornish ham. Didn't we draft a swing lineman named Schumacher who was an OT at Michigan? Where is he?
Listed on the Broncos active roster is Michael Schofield, OT, Michigan
http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster.html
Scofield hasn't even sniffed starting action, been inactive.
Why are we not putting Franklin back where he belongs? He was a monster at RT. Figure the G positions out as we go but we need our bookends with Clady and Franklin.
If he was a monster at RT he would be our starting RT. He was a liability in pass protection.
Ravage!!!
10-21-2014, 11:21 AM
I think the kid had his first game as a starter at RT, and had one bad whiff that made a stand-out whiff (it was bad)....but it's too quick to simply start throwing out the panic button and screaming for replacements. That job is reserved for coach Joel, who is obviously more qualified to talk on this matter.
Remember when Beadles STARTED the 2012 PRO BOWL, then parlayed it into a $30 million contract because the Jags looked at his resume instead of tape of the Super Bowl? :rolleyes:
Franklin does one thing at left guard that is critical to Manning's success. He keeps players from collapsing the pocket right into Manning's face. That far more critical than keeping a player from coming around the edge on Manning's right side. Manning can get rid of the ball with the rush coming around the edge. Manning can adjust to pressure from the right corner far better than pressure up the middle.
That's a very good point, and it's not like Franklin was blowing people away at RT ANY of the 3 seasons he started there. He and Clark are very similar: Great strength against bull rushers, but turnstiles against nimble guys with a quick first step. That immobility makes Franklin a bad pulling G, but had ALREADY made him a poor RT, so disrupting the line to put him back there FILLS NO holes, just SHUFFLES two. There's a good argument we did that by moving him in the first place, but we can't just shuffle the line every other week and expect all five guys to work in harmony.
Franklin's strength gives good line surge our guards have long and sorely lacked, and keeps DTs from canning him like they routinely did Beadles. The downside is LBs can get around him far easier than they did Beadles; it'd be really nice one of these days to eliminate one liability at G or RB without simply swapping it for another, but "there's always next year." Just don't tell that to PFM, who's quick to remind everyone breaking NFL career records "means I'm getting old."
What about Ben Garland, shouldn't he be put at LG, with Franklin back at RT?
Still don't have much faith in a converted DT who entered the league late due to military service; I know he's never started, but has he ever played a regular season DOWN? I'd be more inclined to go with Montgomery, though I think we mainly brought him in to backup Ramirez at C. Our dearth of interior linemen is at least half the reason Franklin moved.
Ramirez seems to have regressed this year. I'm not even sure where we found this Cornish ham. Didn't we draft a swing lineman named Schumacher who was an OT at Michigan? Where is he?
Sounds like Schofield's whom you have in mind (kinda like Cornish instead of Cornick? :tongue:) and GOOD OTs don't last till the 3rd round, let alone the PENULTIMATE 3rd round pick; that's practically an early 4th round pick: A decent G might last that long (some did) but an OT? Too many teams need too many for ALL of them to reject a good one 3 times each. Sadly, Denver seems to have learned that lesson too well, because we were already overflowing with OTs when we picked Schofield, but our Gs were and remain in short supply: After Vasquez, a failed RT's the best G we have.
We'd rather draft a (very) late 3rd round OT and sign an UDFA OT off two other teams' practice squads than draft a G AT ALL; sad. Reminds me of when Bud Adams insisted on drafting HoF Gs and turning them into OTs; I suspect I remember that better than Warren Moon does some days....
MOtorboat
10-21-2014, 11:29 AM
It was a mistake to move Franklin.
VonDoom
10-21-2014, 11:31 AM
Ramirez has kind of sucked so far. Don't we still have Montgomery? Shouldn't we give him a try? Vasquez hasn't been his usual self either, but I'm hoping that's self correcting.
I'm not sure what to think about Franklin; I could go either way, but they're experimenting with Cornick at RT, so let's see how that goes for now.
I think the kid had his first game as a starter at RT, and had one bad whiff that made a stand-out whiff (it was bad)....but it's too quick to simply start throwing out the panic button and screaming for replacements. That job is reserved for coach Joel, who is obviously more qualified to talk on this matter.
I had an insomniac 10-month-old, so only caught some of the second half, but that take sounds like what I saw when I could look: His first NFL start "started" shaky, but I didn't hear his name much int he second half, and if he'd been face-planting to give up sacks and/or get Hillman/Thompson creamed, I figure the guys paid to treat us like we're blind would've told me.
tomjonesrocks
10-21-2014, 11:33 AM
Scofield hasn't even sniffed starting action, been inactive.
He must not be impressing--not surprising though as he was a head-scratching project pick to begin with.
MOtorboat
10-21-2014, 11:34 AM
Yeah, but it was a mistake to NOT move him, too, so what are ya gonna do? ;)
He got moved for one bad game. Overreacting to that game, as you do quite often, is stupid. And the Broncos did a stupid thing when they moved a RT who had a very good season by any metric except Joel-thought.
It was a mistake to move Franklin.
Yeah, but it was a mistake to NOT move him, too, so what are ya gonna do?
Ramirez has kind of sucked so far. Don't we still have Montgomery? Shouldn't we give him a try? Vasquez hasn't been his usual self either, but I'm hoping that's self correcting.
I'm not sure what to think about Franklin; I could go either way, but they're experimenting with Cornick at RT, so let's see how that goes for now.
He's still on ESPNs depth chart. I don't know if it's Franklin or Ramirez blowing blocks (though I have enough faith in Vasquez to think that problem could be solved by having BOTH of them run a double team like Ramirez did well with Beadles last year) but, IIRC, Jaded said Montgomery has starting G as well as C experience, so I wouldn't mind seeing him take the spot of whichever of Franklin/Ramirez is doing worst. The two problems are: 1) We've already screwed with the delicate line chemistry plenty and 2) I don't want to screw with Mannings snaps (then again: Ramirez....)
Slick
10-21-2014, 11:38 AM
He got moved for one bad game. Overreacting to that game, as you do quite often, is stupid. And the Broncos did a stupid thing when they moved a RT who had a very good season by any metric except Joel-thought.
Speed rushers gave O trouble. I liked that they have experimented with it, but I wouldn't throw a fit if they moved him back, I just don't know who'd play guard. Seems like Denver is thin on interior line guys looking at the current roster.
He got moved for one bad game. Overreacting to that game, as you do quite often, is stupid. And the Broncos did a stupid thing when they moved a RT who had a very good season by any metric except Joel-thought.
He got moved because he was an awful pass blocker for 54 games, not 1. Okay, there were a few decent ones, but they were the exception rather than rule, and I'm not the first to say so even in this thread. When we first drafted him all I heard was "Sure he sucks, but he's a rookie; give him time to develop." Fine: It's been 3 full years (and counting.) Time's up, dude: Super Bowl or bust. Looks like bust for him.
MOtorboat
10-21-2014, 11:41 AM
It's been 3 full years (and counting.) Time's up, dude: Super Bowl or bust. Looks like bust for him.
Let me know when the coaches bench Franklin.
He didn't suck. He was an ok RT. He certainly isn't a bust. I think the team likes what they see in him at guard.
I also don't see the logic in saying SB or bust for a player and declaring him a bust based on the lack of SB. Going by that logic there are a lot of players that are busts.
MOtorboat
10-21-2014, 11:42 AM
Speed rushers gave O trouble. I liked that they have experimented with it, but I wouldn't throw a fit if they moved him back, I just don't know who'd play guard. Seems like Denver is thin on interior line guys looking at the current roster.
Robert Mathis and the Seahawks defense gave him trouble. 2/19 is a small percentage to move a guy inside, and replace him with a backup, who then failed.
The whole line experiment has just been bad.
MOtorboat
10-21-2014, 11:43 AM
He didn't suck. He was an ok RT. He certainly isn't a bust. I think the team likes what they see in him at guard.
I also don't see the logic in saying SB or bust for a player and declaring him a bust based on the lack of SB. Going by that logic there are a lot of players that are busts.
The brilliance of Joel.
Robert Mathis and the Seahawks defense gave him trouble. 2/19 is a small percentage to move a guy inside, and replace him with a backup, who then failed.
The whole line experiment has just been bad.
You're very irrational on this topic. Franklin's ceiling was clearly limited at RT. He isn't effective in pass pro when he's isolated out there. It wasn't because he struggled in two games.
Just because we didn't immediately have a great RT to plug in doesn't make the move a failure. It just means that we need to continue to work on RT.
If anything, the experiment was moving Franklin to RT and that proved to not work.
Slick
10-21-2014, 11:49 AM
Robert Mathis and the Seahawks defense gave him trouble. 2/19 is a small percentage to move a guy inside, and replace him with a backup, who then failed.
The whole line experiment has just been bad.
Tough to argue that because as you said, those were the two games that stuck out in my mind the most.
I think the thought in moving O to guard was to try to get the best 5 lineman out there together after Clark played surprisingly well last year. I don't blame them for trying.
Slick
10-21-2014, 11:51 AM
You're very irrational on this topic. Franklin's ceiling was clearly limited at RT. He isn't effective in pass pro when he's isolated out there. It wasn't because he struggled in two games.
Just because we didn't immediately have a great RT to plug in doesn't make the move a failure. It just means that we need to continue to work on RT.
If anything, the experiment was moving Franklin to RT and that proved to not work.
I thought Frankin was a tackle in college and played guard as an underclassmen?
I thought Frankin was a tackle in college and played guard as an underclassmen?
He played 3 years at guard and 1 at tackle. Coming out he said he was most comfortable at guard.
Slick
10-21-2014, 11:58 AM
He played 3 years at guard and 1 at tackle. Coming out he said he was most comfortable at guard.
Yeah I got that backwards. Whoops. Kids let that be a lesson to you. :bandit:
http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28700&ATCLID=205558186
NightTrainLayne
10-21-2014, 12:01 PM
Tough to argue that because as you said, those were the two games that stuck out in my mind the most.
I think the thought in moving O to guard was to try to get the best 5 lineman out there together after Clark played surprisingly well last year. I don't blame them for trying.
You have to try to get the best 5 guys out there. And moving Franklin to guard was the way to try and do that. Clark's getting beat out at tackle, but Franklin hasn't been beat out at guard. . .
If we have (long term) happened on a better RT than Clark while getting production out of Franklin at LG, then that's a success.
One thing that I am growing to like about this coaching staff is that they don't panic based on one or even two or three games. They give the players time to work in. However, they don't blindly leave them in a bad position either. When it's clear that bad performance is a trend, they make a move.
That is to me, a clear sign of good coaching. Developing talent is at least as important as finding talent in the draft.
Slick
10-21-2014, 12:14 PM
You have to try to get the best 5 guys out there. And moving Franklin to guard was the way to try and do that. Clark's getting beat out at tackle, but Franklin hasn't been beat out at guard. . .
If we have (long term) happened on a better RT than Clark while getting production out of Franklin at LG, then that's a success.
One thing that I am growing to like about this coaching staff is that they don't panic based on one or even two or three games. They give the players time to work in. However, they don't blindly leave them in a bad position either. When it's clear that bad performance is a trend, they make a move.
That is to me, a clear sign of good coaching. Developing talent is at least as important as finding talent in the draft.
I agree for the most part with two exceptions. The coaching staff... Bubba sucks as a kick returner and for as little as he plays WR I wonder if Lattimer couldn't be at least as effective. Hillman on short yardage 3rd down, although I think it has more to do with not wanting the opposing D to substitute than it does with Hillman. Not big complaints, just my personal observations.
dogfish
10-21-2014, 12:41 PM
we're doomed. . . worst 5-1 team ever!
Valar Morghulis
10-21-2014, 01:04 PM
Yeah - i have always liked Caldwell, i thought he was reliable - but this year he has been terrible, when he gets a chance, he seems to be dropping everything and has not done a thing as a return man. I think he will be cut soon.
As for Hillman on 3rd down - i doubt that will happen much when they huddle up.
As for the O-Line, i like the experiment, and i dont see it as a failure either, i do think we need a RT with more quality - but very few teams have zero weaknesses and i think PFM's can handle a dodgy RT more than any other position - I do not think it is all on Clark though, the whole O-Line has not been great, Clady is not back to 100% yet, Franklin is learning a new role, and Ramirez has been a huge let down when compared to last year. I think we should let this play out for a few more weeks, give them time to gel - in other words, i have faith!
I'd be making serious trade offers right now to beat the deadline, but the problem is the way FA and the cap are now you practically have to offer a Pro Bowler and a couple future 1st rounders just to get a decent starter, and mortgaging the future isn't really "win from now on." I only remember Elway making two trades since he came home, and both were to GAIN future picks for guys he was going to CUT.
Dzone
10-21-2014, 01:50 PM
Scofield getting beat out by an undrafted guy from north dakota who wasnt good enough to make the jets...
Traveler
10-21-2014, 01:51 PM
Keep Franklin at Guard! Not once this season have I seen him on roller skates like Beadles seemed to be quite often. Has he missed some blocks? Sure, but he still re-adjusting to the position IMO. Protecting the interior is more important with Manning under center.
During the offseason, my hope was Winston Justice or Ryan Miller would beat out Clark for the RT position. Sadly, they sucked worse than Clark. Clark won the position by default, not because he earned it.
As for Schofield, this is his redshirt year. Word is he needs to put on more weight and spend more time in the weight room to get stronger.
G_Money
10-21-2014, 02:03 PM
There are these things called tight ends. If RT continues to be a problem, play one that can block on that side. Or send the RB that way. Or throw screen passes in that direction, take advantage.
We can compensate. The Broncos are loaded on both sides of the ball, and the only team that can beat us is pretty much us. If we're not running a bunch of 3rd-and-8 draws or committing dumb penalties that bring back first downs and touchdowns, I'm not afraid of any team in this league.
We have ten weeks left in the pre-season to iron out our blocking schemes before tournament time. The defense is getting the hang of this pressure-and-pass-defense thing, and our Run D is more than fine.
I don't want to be peaking now. This is when Shanahan's teams were always peaking. Start 6-and-1, go 9-and-7. If the worst thing that happens is that we have to do some chips or double-teams and steal a WR from Manning on a couple of passing downs against good D-Ends, I can live with that.
Hopefully we can fix that wrinkle without having to continually resort to that option, but it IS available. Trust me, nobody around the league is looking at us going, "Hahaha they have some right tackle blocking issues that have gotten Peyton sacked... 8 whole times. And while they started the year winning by single digits, now it's by... 14-to-20+. Boy are they in trouble..."
We can stop us. Nobody else should be able to. Just keep working on perfecting our game.
Our date with destiny ain't til February. We got time.
Simple Jaded
10-21-2014, 09:53 PM
PFF ranked Franklin pretty high last season, top3 among RT's iirc, but PFF only matters when they're blowing sunshine up Joels ass. Had him ranked higher than most LT's. Oh well. Inconvenient truth.
ShaneFalco
10-21-2014, 10:22 PM
Agree...it's not like he's blowing anyone away at LG
franklin at guard is the highest graded o line on our team.
Dapper Dan
10-21-2014, 10:32 PM
I don't think it's that big of a deal. :whoknows:
ShaneFalco
10-21-2014, 10:45 PM
he is definitely a great o linemen regardless. Close to Clady in my opinion, better running the ball then Clady.
silkamilkamonico
10-21-2014, 10:52 PM
I don't think it's that big of a deal. :whoknows:
It's really not. Outside of a handful of plays at most, Cornick did a solid job Sunday night.
WARHORSE
10-22-2014, 01:29 PM
It's really not. Outside of a handful of plays at most, Cornick did a solid job Sunday night.
No way. He looked pitiful on most plays. Peyton did a great job getting rid of the ball. All going to be yea, nay right now but we will find out on Nov. 23. or possibly the 16th.
Dapper Dan
10-24-2014, 01:08 AM
We should trade for DJ Fluker.
Traveler
10-24-2014, 12:28 PM
RT seems to be the one big hole on offense. Should the team look into making a trade? If so, any ideas as to whom might be available? Or is it too late in the year to even think about making a move?
Ravage!!!
10-24-2014, 12:55 PM
it was pretty good last year. Weird how that has changed.
Valar Morghulis
10-24-2014, 01:03 PM
it was pretty good last year. Weird how that has changed.
Not sure if you are talking about the same thing as i think you are or if you are being sarcastic - but i think it changed because we moved Franklin to LG and replaced him with a back up LT initially - sorry if we were talking about other things and i am stating the obvious
I don't know. I thought Cornick looked pretty decent last night.
NightTrainLayne
10-24-2014, 01:16 PM
I don't know. I thought Cornick looked pretty decent last night.
I was about to ask, "what was wrong with last night's performance?"
I only watched the game once, and didn't replay plays or anything. . . In other words, just enjoyed an ass whooping on San Diego. But I did try to watch him a few plays. I guess the biggest news was that I didn't really notice him at all (outside of that false start in the 4th quarter) which means he was probably doing an okay job.
Valar Morghulis
10-24-2014, 01:17 PM
I don't know. I thought Cornick looked pretty decent last night.
The fact i cant remember hearing his name suggests he done his job pretty good
Edited to add NTL beat me to it
Slick
10-24-2014, 01:18 PM
http://gfycat.com/ColorlessSneakyIrishwolfhound
I saw this gif over on the Mane. Look at Cornick and Franklyn. Not good on that play.
Valar Morghulis
10-24-2014, 01:21 PM
http://gfycat.com/ColorlessSneakyIrishwolfhound
I saw this gif over on the Mane. Look at Cornick and Franklyn. Not good on that play.
That will not be in their highlight reel!
Dapper Dan
10-24-2014, 01:55 PM
There was another play where the defender went right around Franklin, similar to that gif. But I think the guy made the tackle in the backfield.
Ravage!!!
10-24-2014, 03:31 PM
http://gfycat.com/ColorlessSneakyIrishwolfhound
I saw this gif over on the Mane. Look at Cornick and Franklyn. Not good on that play.
yeah.. but that's not fair. That's cherry picking one play to make a point. NO one grades out at 100% after a game. I could pick any game, and any OL and find a play they looked silly on.
The fact i cant remember hearing his name suggests he done his job pretty good
Edited to add NTL beat me to it
I beat you both to it by a week and two pages :tongue:: http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/592637-Right-Tackle-Is-a-MESS?p=2254324#post2254324
http://gfycat.com/ColorlessSneakyIrishwolfhound
I saw this gif over on the Mane. Look at Cornick and Franklyn. Not good on that play.
Franklin was TERRIBLE on that play: He had THE block right at the point of attack, and not only whiffed but "split the double team" by failing to block EITHER guy on each side of him, instead nearly falling on his face while his man shot straight into the hole to meet the RB. Fortunately, we only needed a yard, and the back broke that first tackle, but the OTHER guy Franklin declined to block joined another to finish off the tackle just past the line to gain; had it been 3rd and 3 (or even 2) we'd have been forced to punt.
I don't think Cornick did as bad as it looks at first glance; sure, a guy got by him, but unless he blew his assignment as badly as Franklin, he was blocking inside on a run to the left, and it looked like Orange Julius was the guy responsible for sealing the backside so Cornick could work the inside (which explains why the guy who blew past Cornick on the right wasn't in on the play: It had already gone past him.)
There was another play where the defender went right around Franklin, similar to that gif. But I think the guy made the tackle in the backfield.
I remember that and yeah, defender just flat out beat him inside to pop Hillman almost instantly.
There was also his hold on Hillmans gorgeous 40 yd TD run that just nipped inside the pylon; Manning DID bail him out of that one on the next play with a long throw to Tamme that set us up at the goal line when it drew PI, but before that it was 2nd and 12 outside of FG range just after SD scored, when we needed a TD to put them back down 2 scores. A punt there could've meant a very different final....
Franklin, Clady and (IIRC) Orange Julius had nice outside blocks on Hillmans 37 yd dash, but Cornick played at least as well as Franklin overall, IMHO; whether that's a compliment is at the discretion of others.
guitarj
10-24-2014, 05:19 PM
http://gfycat.com/ColorlessSneakyIrishwolfhound
I saw this gif over on the Mane. Look at Cornick and Franklyn. Not good on that play.
Looks like a first down to me.
Dapper Dan
10-24-2014, 05:58 PM
Looks like a first down to me.
It was genius, really. Let the defender over pursue and the RB gets upfield.
Simple Jaded
10-24-2014, 08:52 PM
Looks like a first down to me.
No thanks to Franklin and Cornick.
G_Money
10-24-2014, 09:18 PM
I beat you both to it by a week and two pages :tongue:: http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/592637-Right-Tackle-Is-a-MESS?p=2254324#post2254324
Franklin was TERRIBLE on that play: He had THE block right at the point of attack, and not only whiffed but "split the double team" by failing to block EITHER guy on each side of him, instead nearly falling on his face while his man shot straight into the hole to meet the RB. Fortunately, we only needed a yard, and the back broke that first tackle, but the OTHER guy Franklin declined to block joined another to finish off the tackle just past the line to gain; had it been 3rd and 3 (or even 2) we'd have been forced to punt.
The beautiful thing about that run is Thompson. He's met at the line of scrimmage by Gatchkar (#59) and obliterates him, knocking the LB to the ground. He then drags #32 and #52 another 2 yards and STILL has enough power to knock out Addae, who comes flying in to come try to knock Thompson back and deliver a blow and instead takes one and is out on his feet at the end of that play.
We'd actually have gotten that 3rd and 3 conversion, Joel. Just look at the yard marker. Wouldn't be a long 3, but still that's pretty impressive considering how FUBARed the blocking was on that run.
I dunno how long Thompson can play while running like that, but for as long as he can deliver those runs I'm interested in letting him. :salute: Hopefully he can lay the wood in the coming weeks just that way - and hopefully he doesn't have to in order to get every short yardage conversion.
~G
Slick
10-24-2014, 10:00 PM
yeah.. but that's not fair. That's cherry picking one play to make a point. NO one grades out at 100% after a game. I could pick any game, and any OL and find a play they looked silly on.
Looks like a first down to me.
I said they both looked bad on that play, not the whole game. I saw the gif on the Mane and thought it fit the thread here. I wasn't trying to make some sweeping indictment.
WARHORSE
10-24-2014, 10:50 PM
Vasquez plays better RT than Cornball does.
Cornick looks like a cartoon out there.
The beautiful thing about that run is Thompson. He's met at the line of scrimmage by Gatchkar (#59) and obliterates him, knocking the LB to the ground. He then drags #32 and #52 another 2 yards and STILL has enough power to knock out Addae, who comes flying in to come try to knock Thompson back and deliver a blow and instead takes one and is out on his feet at the end of that play.
We'd actually have gotten that 3rd and 3 conversion, Joel. Just look at the yard marker. Wouldn't be a long 3, but still that's pretty impressive considering how FUBARed the blocking was on that run.
I dunno how long Thompson can play while running like that, but for as long as he can deliver those runs I'm interested in letting him. :salute: Hopefully he can lay the wood in the coming weeks just that way - and hopefully he doesn't have to in order to get every short yardage conversion.
I quit looking once it turned into a scrum, but you're right, he would've picked up 3rd and 3 on pure power, and yeah, that's a big reason I like Thompson (couldn't be sure from the video it was him, though I did suspect it.) With our blocking SNAFUBARed, we need a guy like that, just as last year, and the year before that, and the year before THAT.... :(
Ball does a pretty good job of it, too; the problem is that he struggles with quickly finding holes on the rare (and therefore vital) occasions they exist. From what I've seen, Thompson finds the holes much more reliably than Ball, and breaks tackles much more reliably than Hillman, so I'd really like him as our starter, with Hillman back to a change-of-pace role. As long as Hillman's producing, picking up the blitz and breaking tackles like the last couple games, I can't justify messing with what's working so well, even if he can't move piles like Thompson.
Vasquez plays better RT than Cornball does.
Cornick looks like a cartoon out there.
When Franklin was hurt last year, Vasquez was surprisingly awful at RT. I don't know if it was unfamiliarity, messing with the line or what, but DO know it was bad; the only reason (other than being a guard) it didn't get more negative notice was that Clark gave Mathis so many sacks and hurries on the other side that was more evident, but Manning was getting it from both directions.
Apparently I'm not the only one wondering if we should trade for a RT before the deadline: The folks at Mile High Report are asking the same question. http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/10/24/7050711/nfl-trade-deadline-should-broncos-make-a-midseason-right-tackle
While they conclude the answer's no, it's also interesting another MHR article claims teams are making offers for Tony Carter (our much-maligned #6 CB.) http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/10/25/7070101/nfl-trade-rumors-denver-broncos-cornerback-tony-carter-generating
I'd give up Carter and a couple midround picks a decent RT; he wouldn't have to be great, just good enough I (and Manning) could sleep nights.
Slick
10-25-2014, 05:59 PM
Apparently I'm not the only one wondering if we should trade for a RT before the deadline: The folks at Mile High Report are asking the same question. http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/10/24/7050711/nfl-trade-deadline-should-broncos-make-a-midseason-right-tackle
While they conclude the answer's no, it's also interesting another MHR article claims teams are making offers for Tony Carter (our much-maligned #6 CB.) http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/10/25/7070101/nfl-trade-rumors-denver-broncos-cornerback-tony-carter-generating
I'd give up Carter and a couple midround picks a decent RT; he wouldn't have to be great, just good enough I (and Manning) could sleep nights.
I wouldn't give up Carter for picks. Picks and a player, yes. I won't say why because it might be bad luck.
Simple Jaded
10-25-2014, 06:43 PM
I'm sure Manning sleeps just fine.
Btw, wasn't the Mile High Report where we all read about how Kyle Orton = Peyton Manning back in the day?
I wouldn't give up Carter for picks. Picks and a player, yes. I won't say why because it might be bad luck.
I might give him up for good picks, but I'd give up him AND midround picks for a quality RT, and it wouldn't have to be a world-beater, just someone reliable in protection and adequate in line surge.
I might give him up for good picks, but I'd give up him AND midround picks for a quality RT, and it wouldn't have to be a world-beater, just someone reliable in protection and adequate in line surge.
Or we could keep our draft picks and see what we have with the kids we have until they show us they can't play. It would be really football stupid to trade Carter AND picks for not a "world beater" and someone who is JUST serviceable when serviceable is what is at RT right NOW.
Or we could keep our draft picks and see what we have with the kids we have until they show us they can't play. It would be really football stupid to trade Carter AND picks for not a "world beater" and someone who is JUST serviceable when serviceable is what is at RT right NOW.
That's not a bad argument, and largely the conclusion the MHR reached: I just don't want to miss out on a championship (again) while we wait for Cornick and Schofield to season. Right now, Carter hardly ever sees the field; we have 2 elite and 2 very good CBs ahead of him, as well as Bolden, not to mention Quinton Carter in dime scenarios, so the only way Carter plays is if a LOT of people are hurt.
I know Harris is in a contract year, but even if he left tomorrow Tony Carter would STILL be on the bench unless/until one of 4-5 other guys got hurt. And he's in a contract year, too: Would you rather re-sign him or Harris? And whichever's your answer, wouldn't it be better to get ANYTHING for the other rather than just release him and get NOTHING?
TXBRONC
10-26-2014, 07:48 AM
He got moved for one bad game. Overreacting to that game, as you do quite often, is stupid. And the Broncos did a stupid thing when they moved a RT who had a very good season by any metric except Joel-thought.
It wasn't a knee jerk reaction nor was he moved for one bad game. He was moved to strengthen the middle of the offensive line. It's looks to me like him moving to the inside is starting to payoff. Now right tackle has been a different story although it looked to me like Cornick did pretty good job on Thursday so I don't see right tackle as being as big of a problem as some are inclined to think. Putting Clark at right tackle is far great problem than moving Franklin to guard.
The real problem, IMHO, is Clark's not a big (if any) step down from Franklin, who didn't have "one bad game" at RT, but THREE bad SEASONS. So it's back to the thread's first response: Assuming (for the sake of argument) RT IS a mess, what's the solution? The PREVIOUS mess (i.e. Franklin)? A rookie third rounder? An UDFA? Scanning the waiver wire? Moving one of our OTHER few guards? A trade?
The reality is we came into 2014 with two big holes on the line, because our RT and LG weren't getting it done and the second left for more cash. Since Franklin's shown more power as a run blocker than agility as a pass protector, and Fox called Clark the NFLs best backup OT, it made superficial sense to move Clark from LT to RT once Clady was healthy and use Franklins power at guard, the main run blocker. Sadly, he moved to LEFT guard, where he must pull for many strongside runs, so his sluggishness is a liability, and Clark's much like him: Strong enough for bull rushers, but too slow for speed rushers.
Had I my druthers, we'd have spent an early pick on a quality guard in a draft reportedly deep at that position, though we might've lost Roby or Latimer in the process, or spent $2-3 million on one of the several quality FA guards released last offseason. Yet even had we done so and successfully found someone to fill the hole at guard, the RT issue would still remain. Maybe time will prove Cornick's not RTs solution—but time's ALREADY proven Franklin and Clark aren't, and 3rd round pick Schofield looked terrible in preseason even against guys cut the next day. For good or ill, this is it unless we trade, and soon.
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 08:44 AM
The real problem, IMHO, is Clark's not a big (if any) step down from Franklin, who didn't have "one bad game" at RT, but THREE bad SEASONS.
Do you have any evidence for this drivel?
At this point you've spammed the board with this opinion. You're the only person with this opinion. And the only facts you can produce to back it up is one game against Seattle and one play against Indianapolis.
Do you have any evidence for this drivel?
At this point you've spammed the board with this opinion. You're the only person with this opinion. And the only facts you can produce to back it up is one game against Seattle and one play against Indianapolis.
Evidence for which? The knock on Franklin, the knock on Clark, or both? I need to know which OTs non-performance to extensively document before being accused of spamming when I do so.
Valar Morghulis
10-26-2014, 09:23 AM
Evidence for which? The knock on Franklin, the knock on Clark, or both? I need to know which OTs non-performance to extensively document before being accused of spamming when I do so.
lol
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 09:32 AM
Evidence for which? The knock on Franklin, the knock on Clark, or both? I need to know which OTs non-performance to extensively document before being accused of spamming when I do so.
I think I was pretty clear.
yeah.. but that's not fair. That's cherry picking one play to make a point. NO one grades out at 100% after a game. I could pick any game, and any OL and find a play they looked silly on.
Staley looked pretty silly on Wares sick fake spin move, SF should cut him. :D
Staley looked pretty silly on Wares sick fake spin move, SF should cut him. :D Then in the Madden world Joel lives in we could swoop in and snag him and make him our new right guard!
I think I was pretty clear.
You're entitled to think so, but since Franklin and Clark BOTH had awful SBs AND bad games vs. Indy, it's unclear whom that referenced. Which supports my claim Clark and Franklin are interchangeable.
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 10:42 AM
You're entitled to think so, but since Franklin and Clark BOTH had awful SBs AND bad games vs. Indy, it's unclear whom that referenced. Which supports my claim Clark and Franklin are interchangeable.
Google searches not coming up with anything?
Google searches not coming up with anything?
You still haven't told me if you disagree with criticism of Clark or of Franklin; do even YOU know? Or do you just disagree with ME on personal principles, and want to avoid details exposing that?
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 03:24 PM
You still haven't told me if you disagree with criticism of Clark or of Franklin; do even YOU know? Or do you just disagree with ME on personal principles, and want to avoid details exposing that?
It's pretty ******* clear what I'm asking for. I want proof that Franklin had three horrible seasons. That's your claim. Not mine. And since Clark has only played one season and six games, it was plain as day what I was asking for.
You want to argue semantics, which tells me everything I need to know.
Simple Jaded
10-26-2014, 03:39 PM
Then in the Madden world Joel lives in we could swoop in and snag him and make him our new right guard!
No, no, he's nowhere near as good as Schwartz and Asamoah, the Broncos are doomed until those two are in the fold. Trade Manning if you have to.
TXBRONC
10-26-2014, 07:26 PM
No way. He looked pitiful on most plays. Peyton did a great job getting rid of the ball. All going to be yea, nay right now but we will find out on Nov. 23. or possibly the 16th.
No he was solid. If he wasn't Manning would have been planted and the running game wouldn't been as effective.
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 10:39 PM
You ever find any evidence to support that claim Joel?
MOtorboat
10-26-2014, 10:50 PM
:cricket:
That's the sound of Joel furiously typing away trying to find someone who agrees with him...
Slick
10-27-2014, 08:46 AM
:cricket:
That's the sound of Joel furiously typing away trying to find someone who agrees with him...
You have an unhealthy obsession of what Joel posts on this forum. Just let it go Mo.
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