PDA

View Full Version : Broncos' defense has most impressive game of year against 49ers



Denver Native (Carol)
10-20-2014, 11:16 AM
Broncos linebacker Brandon Marshall didn't touch Colin Kaepernick on a game-breaking play in the third quarter Sunday. But Marshall did breathe on him.

San Francisco's quarterback already had been tossed to the ground twice by DeMarcus Ware and manhandled by Von Miller. So perhaps Kaepernick just wanted a reprieve, just one wasted play to catch his breath.

So, with Marshall busting through the line on a blitz, charging close enough to whisper in Kaepernick's ear, the QB sailed the ball deep to dodge the pressure. Marshall never touched him. But the ball went right to Broncos cornerback Aqib Talib for an interception. One play later, Peyton Manning threw his fourth touchdown pass. Game over.

The Broncos — in their most lopsided, most impressive victory of the season — put together their best defensive effort, too.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26760817/broncos-defense-has-most-impressive-game-year-against

Denver Native (Carol)
10-20-2014, 11:45 AM
When Denver Broncos Vice President of Football Operations, John Elway, targeted DeMarcus Ware, the moment he was released by the Dallas Cowboys, he had a vision of how the Cowboys All-Time leader in sacks could contribute to the "Super Bowl or Bust" mission in the Mile High City.

As Elway saw it, teamed up with Von Miller, there was no limit to what the duo could accomplish. And through 6 games, that vision has begun to be realized. Last night, Broncos Country finally got to see a full 60-minute performance by the Broncos, that saw them execute at a high level on both sides of the ball.

On the night, Ware and Miller harassed Colin Kaepernick and the San Francisco 49ers offensive line, to the tune of 5 combined sacks. Ware was responsible for 3 of them. It's really something special to see how he sets up his opponent throughout the game.

rest - http://den.scout.com/story/1470903-demarcus-ware-dominates-joe-staley

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
10-20-2014, 12:08 PM
That fake spin move was nasty

LawDog
10-20-2014, 01:28 PM
That fake spin move was nasty

I could watch it all day...

wayninja
10-20-2014, 02:00 PM
I was irritated when we lost Dumervil, and while Shaun Phillips had a pretty respectable year. Ware more than makes up for the vacuum.

tripp
10-20-2014, 02:14 PM
Von Miller 8 sacks, DeMarcus Ware 7 sacks after 6 games. I hope the Chargers O-line comes to play Thursday.

Joel
10-20-2014, 07:24 PM
I was irritated when we lost Dumervil, and while Shaun Phillips had a pretty respectable year. Ware more than makes up for the vacuum.
I'm still not convinced the upgrade from Phillips to Ware was proportional to the cost, but there's no denying the guy's earning his paycheck. The main thing is that, like Phillips (and UNlike Doom) he's as good against the run as the pass, so we're not paying him millions to spend 85% of the game on the bench: He plays EVERY down—and well—not just third.

Overall, this is a good example of why stats can be misleading: After by far our best defensive performance all year, we actually FELL from 4th to 6th in total yds/gm. That doesn't mean we suddenly started leaking though, it means we dominated SF so totally on both sides of the ball that they were in a 2:00 drill nearly the whole second half while we went to Prevent early, making them spend the whole half racking up tons of easy over-the-middle yardage to end up with just ONE score (also, Oz and the second teamers played most of the 4th, so we abruptly started punting a lot.)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-20-2014, 07:31 PM
Von Miller 8 sacks, DeMarcus Ware 7 sacks after 6 games. I hope the Chargers O-line comes to play Thursday.

This shows how different our pass rush is from last year. Phillips ended the year with what, 10 sacks? Phillips was our sack leader last year.

Joel
10-20-2014, 08:10 PM
Von Miller 8 sacks, DeMarcus Ware 7 sacks after 6 games. I hope the Chargers O-line comes to play Thursday.
It's one of the many places they're hurting, which definitely favors us, especially on a short week. Millers 8 sacks leads the league, while Ware, Doom and several others are just behind him tied for second—even though all those other guys have played one more game than Miller AND Ware. Thanks to the early bye, our stats are less impressive than one might think (apart from Miller and Ware, the only other Bronco ranked in the top 5 in any category is DT, who's 4th in receiving yards) but we're top five in most PER GAME categories.

Manning: 1st in PR, 1st in TDs/gm (and tied for 1st in totals,) 3rd in yds/game, 2nd in completion percentage, 2nd in yds/att
DT: 1st in yds/game, 2nd in TDs/game (behind JT, who's first overall; DT's 4th overall)
JT: Again, 1st in overall TDs as well as per-game
Miller: Again, 1st overall in sacks overall as well as per-game
Ware: Tied for 2nd overall in sacks, alone in second (behind Miller) for most per-game

Denver Offense: 1st in pts/gm, 5th in yds/gm, 3rd in passing yds/gm, 1st in Passer Rating, 1st in passing TDs/gm (T-IND for 1st overall,) 2nd in passing yds/att
Denver Defense: 1st in sk/gm (T-IND, DET for 3rd overall,) 2nd in passing yds/att, 2nd in completion percentage, 3rd in rushing yds/gm, 5th in rushing yds/att

In addition, we're 6th in total yds/gm and tied with KC for 7th least pts/gm. Not too shabby (yes, I went there.)

Joel
10-20-2014, 08:20 PM
This shows how different our pass rush is from last year. Phillips ended the year with what, 10 sacks? Phillips was our sack leader last year.
10˝. I still don't know how we release the team sack leader (it's worth noting Miller missed roughly half of last year, and in between wasn't in game shape) I guess because Wolfe, Jackson and Smith are all much younger, but I wouldn't exactly be worried if we had them and Phillips with Miller this year instead of them and Ware, especially if it meant Asamoah intead of Franklin at LG. Ware's an outstanding player I love having, but he's making more this year than Phillips, Asamoah and Geoff Schwartz COMBINED; I'm not sure that would drop our sack totals, but it would sure boost our rushing totals.

Davii
10-21-2014, 01:24 AM
10˝. I still don't know how we release the team sack leader (it's worth noting Miller missed roughly half of last year, and in between wasn't in game shape) I guess because Wolfe, Jackson and Smith are all much younger, but I wouldn't exactly be worried if we had them and Phillips with Miller this year instead of them and Ware, especially if it meant Asamoah intead of Franklin at LG. Ware's an outstanding player I love having, but he's making more this year than Phillips, Asamoah and Geoff Schwartz COMBINED; I'm not sure that would drop our sack totals, but it would sure boost our rushing totals.

Phillips did NOT get his 10 sacks (according to rotoworld and ESPN) when it really mattered. When we NEEDED a sack to get off the field in a pressure situation he did not come through. Not only that, IIRC the vast majority of them came in the beginning of the year, he faded as the season went on, and was non-existent in the playoffs.

So far he has one sack in 7 games. Against the Jags. For a one yard loss. Plus he's now making 3 million per year. So, yes, Ware is worth the extra salary. Every day. Easily. Without any shred of doubt.

Timmy!
10-21-2014, 02:28 AM
Joel whining about spending money on a complete stud who is dominating.....gee, this isn't familiar at all.....

Joel
10-21-2014, 04:35 AM
Phillips did NOT get his 10 sacks (according to rotoworld and ESPN) when it really mattered. When we NEEDED a sack to get off the field in a pressure situation he did not come through. Not only that, IIRC the vast majority of them came in the beginning of the year, he faded as the season went on, and was non-existent in the playoffs.
You're right about it being 10 instead of 10˝ (could've sworn I saw 10˝ all off season, but whether I remembered wrong or the NFL took away one, it's 10 now.) As for when he got his sacks and whether they mattered, given (or rather, taken) Millers absence the first six games, I'd say that was PRECISELY when we needed Phillips to show up and replace our former sack leader. Did the time of GAME matter?


3
11:50
3
12
RAV 18
Joe Flacco (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -4 yards
17
21


3
11:17
4
16
RAV 14
Sam Koch (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KochSa20.htm) punts, blocked by David Bruton (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrutDa99.htm), recovered by Sam Koch (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KochSa20.htm)
17
21


3
11:08
1
10
RAV 10
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short right to Wes Welker (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WelkWe00.htm) for 5 yards (tackle by Corey Graham (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrahCo99.htm))
17
21


3
10:34
2
5
RAV 5
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short left to Wes Welker (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WelkWe00.htm) for 5 yards, touchdown
17
27



You may recall we opened the season against the defending SB Champs who ENDED our previous season, and routed them: That rout began with that 3rd down sack, immediately followed by a blocked punt, followed by a 2 play 10 yd TD "drive" to extend our lead from 4 pts to 11. They kept trying to rally even after our next TD, but we pretty much ended them on the 3rd qtrs final play:


3
0:15
3
10
RAV 34
Joe Flacco (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) and Wesley Woodyard (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoodWe20.htm)for -8 yards
17
35



His next sack was also on 3rd down, but toward the end of the 3rd qtr against Philly when we led by even more, so I'll concede it wasn't huge. The next two WERE, because they came on the road in the Cowboys game where stops by either team were rare and our Phillips was among our few defensive starters who weren't subs not walking wounded:


2
12:53
3
8
DEN 8
Tony Romo (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RomoTo00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -17 yards
7
14
3.58
1.8
58.2


2
12:17
4
25
DEN 25
Dan Bailey (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BailDa00.htm) 43 yard field goal good
7
17


Seems to me ANY sack on 3rd and G is big, but in a game where Dallas only punted ONCE and we won 51-48, it's the reason we didn't lose 51-52. It still nearly went to OT before:


4
2:39
1
10
DAL 20
Tony Romo (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RomoTo00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -6 yards
48
48
0.28


4
2:04
2
16
DAL 14
Tony Romo (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RomoTo00.htm) pass incomplete short right intended for Gavin Escobar (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EscoGa00.htm) is intercepted by Danny Trevathan (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TrevDa00.htm) at DAL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/2013.htm)-24
48
48
-1.18


The consensus then, as you may recall, was that the sack set up the Int: No longer at 1st and 10, Romo faced a passing down expecting pressure even more since he'd just been sacked, so he rushed a throw over the middle right to Trevathan. Phillips was the difference between winning by a FG and losing by a TD that day (which incidentally would've meant playing last years AFCCG in Foxborough; sound fun?)

Phillips' sacks not only prevented the earlier TD (and with a 4 pt lead Dallas just tries to run out the clock there, probably successfully since they'd only punted ONCE all game) but set up the game winner.

Phillips had a 2nd and 3 sack on Luck, which put Indy in 3rd and 11, but he gave 5 of it back by being off sides (supposedly; I disputed it at the time) on the next play; still, 3rd and 6 is a passing down (Luck threw incomplete) and 2nd and 3 is probably two runs for a conversion. Not that it mattered the way our offensive line and Hillman played that game.

His first game back in SD, Phillips came up with this in the second half of a game we hung on to win by 8:


3
3:52
1
10
SDG 46
Philip Rivers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) and Von Miller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MillVo00.htm) for -10 yards
28
13


3
3:09
2
20
SDG 36
Penalty on Philip Rivers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm): Delay of Game, 5 yards (no play)
28
13


The Bolts called a short run after that, then a short pass over the middle, then punted it back to us so we could piddle around a few plays and punt it back to them for the TD that got them within one score.

Against KC, Phillips gave us this:


1
11:49
3
10
KAN 36
Alex Smith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAl03.htm) sacked by Malik Jackson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackMa02.htm) and Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -7 yards
0
3





2
0:23
1
10
DEN 42
Alex Smith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAl03.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -9 yards
10
17


2
0:11
1
10
DEN 42
Timeout #3 by Kansas City Chiefs
10
17


2
0:11
2
19
KAN 49
Alex Smith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAl03.htm) pass complete short right to Dexter McCluster (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McClDe00.htm) for -1 yards (tackle by David Bruton (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrutDa99.htm)). Dexter McCluster (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McClDe00.htm) fumbles (forced by David Bruton (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrutDa99.htm)), recovered by Jamaal Charles (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CharJa00.htm) atKAN (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kan/2013.htm)-48. Penalty on Wesley Woodyard (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoodWe20.htm): Defensive Holding, 5 yards (no play)
10
17


2
0:00
1
10
DEN 46
Alex Smith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAl03.htm) left end for 25 yards (tackle by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm))
10
17



End of Half
10
17


The half-sack forced a punt; the second one pushed KC out of range for a long FG (remember: It was in Mile High) and forced them to burn their last time out, so when Phillips (there's that name again ;)) tackled Smith on his 25 yd run, they were plenty close enough for a FG, but couldn't stop the clock before halftime. Phillips had a LOT of tackles on both Smith and Charles in that game (and also successfully one pass to Charles.) That was the biggest game of our season to that point, and Phillips prevented (at least) 3 pts in a game we won by just 10.

In the rematch with SD, we trailed by 2 TDs near the end of the 3rd qtr when this happened:


3
2:17
3
7
DEN 44
Philip Rivers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RivePh00.htm) sacked by Shaun Phillips (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilSh20.htm) for -6 yards
24
10


In the playoffs he had 2 sacks in the first game, one on 2nd and 10 at midfield during their first drive, after which Rivers' 3rd and 16 pass was incomplete, then another sack on the first play after SDs onside kick at the end; it wasn't enough to prevent a FG on that drive, but it should go without saying a sack after an onside kick in the 4th qtr of a playoff game is important timing. He had none against NE though, and I don't think DENVER had any against Seattle (haven't checked; I've seen enough of THAT boxscore.)

He did have more in the first half of the season than the second, but since he was pretty much our ONLY pass rusher then and drawing double teams because of it, that's hardly a mark against him.
A first down puts them in long range for a FG and a 3-score lead to start the 4th, which probably finishes us; instead, Phillips forced a punt and we drove down for a TD to get within one score, then the D forced another stop; it's not Phillips' fault Manning threw a pick on the next drive so SD got a FG for their 2-score lead ANYWAY.


So far he has one sack in 7 games. Against the Jags. For a one yard loss. Plus he's now making 3 million per year. So, yes, Ware is worth the extra salary. Every day. Easily. Without any shred of doubt.
Tennessee sucks so badly he and Woodyard were out of their minds to go there as pretty much their only defense stars apart from Verner; if I know who I'd double team if my team were playing the Titans. Have you checked Wares Rotoworld numbers?
Signed a three-year, $30 million contract. The deal contains $20 million guaranteed, including a $5 million signing bonus and first-year roster bonus of $5 million. 2014: $3 million, 2015: $3.5 million (+ $3.5 million roster bonus), 2016: $7 million (+ $3 million roster bonus)
$30 million for 3 years, with $20 million GUARANTEED by a $5 million pro-rated signing bonus (i.e. $1.67 million/yr) $11.5 million roster bonus ($5 million of it this year) and a base 2014 salary of $3 million; 1.67+5+3~$10 milliion for this year, over THREE TIMES what Phillips is earning. We could've kept him AND Woodyard for that, with money left for the top LG we desperately need.

Sure, Ware produces more than Phillips—but does he produce more than Phillips, Woodyard and another high quality starter? It's the same logic as "would you rather have Luck or spend the #1 overall pick on someone else and take Wilson in the 3rd?" Ware's worth every penny we're paying, but I'm still unsure it wouldn't have been better spent on THREE quality starters at positions of need than AN elite one.

Davii
10-21-2014, 08:12 AM
Our defense is better Joel. So, in a word, yes.

Build a team of mediocre players, receive mediocre results. We added a stud. He's paying off. Quit bitching.

Shazam!
10-21-2014, 08:31 AM
null

Who the **** is going to read all this?

Shazam!
10-21-2014, 08:33 AM
Ware has been the difference maker this year in the rush and he has made Von a better player.

Please stop already. Watch the games.

BroncoJoe
10-21-2014, 09:13 AM
Honestly, it's like Joel doesn't even watch the Broncos. Just reads the stat lines.

Ziggy
10-21-2014, 09:21 AM
Honestly, it's like Joel doesn't even watch the Broncos. Just reads the stat lines.

Give it a year or two after Manning leaves. He'll change teams again.

Hawgdriver
10-21-2014, 09:48 AM
Who the **** is going to read all this?

I once read a way long Joel post
My day's time it took up the most
I started at dawn
At sunset a yawn
Someone please teach him riposte

BroncoJoe
10-21-2014, 09:48 AM
Give it a year or two after Manning leaves. He'll change teams again.

I don't know - he doesn't even really like the Broncos and it's clear he's NOT a Manning fan.

Joel
10-21-2014, 09:57 AM
Who the **** is going to read all this?
Someone asserted "Phillips did NOT get his 10 sacks... when it really mattered;" since he "only" had 10 sacks, they were easy to list. One saved and another won a game for us, and a third pushed a division rival out of FG range and forced them to burn their last time out, so when Phillips tackled the QB after a 25 yd run there was no time for the FG unit to come out before the half. Those seem like "pressure situations" and he had as many more sacks "When we NEEDED a sack to get off the field."

Maybe Ware turns in plays that save/win 6 games for us (since he's making 3X what Phillips earns now,) but with just 19-20 games in the season, the odds are against it. I'm thrilled to have him, but at $10 million, can't help wondering if some of that's marginal returns that would've been greater had we spent it to keep Phillips and Woodyard and signed a top guard to do what Franklin can't.

Joel
10-21-2014, 09:57 AM
I once read a way long Joel post
My day's time it took up the most
I started at dawn
At sunset a yawn
Someone please teach him riposte
Slant rhyme makes Baby Jesus cry. :(

TXBRONC
10-21-2014, 10:08 AM
10˝. I still don't know how we release the team sack leader (it's worth noting Miller missed roughly half of last year, and in between wasn't in game shape) I guess because Wolfe, Jackson and Smith are all much younger, but I wouldn't exactly be worried if we had them and Phillips with Miller this year instead of them and Ware, especially if it meant Asamoah intead of Franklin at LG. Ware's an outstanding player I love having, but he's making more this year than Phillips, Asamoah and Geoff Schwartz COMBINED; I'm not sure that would drop our sack totals, but it would sure boost our rushing totals.

Two things Joel:

One, you can't have everything.

Two while Phillips had a nice season his release isn't anywhere near as mind boggling as you think it is. Yes he had 10 sacks last season but he's never player who can apply pressure the Demarcus Ware can. Ware is hands down a much better complementary player to Miller than Phillips would ever be. Phillips doesn't get a lot of sacks by beating a tackle around the corner.

Hawgdriver
10-21-2014, 10:12 AM
Someone asserted "Phillips did NOT get his 10 sacks... when it really mattered;" since he "only" had 10 sacks, they were easy to list. One saved and another won a game for us, and a third pushed a division rival out of FG range and forced them to burn their last time out, so when Phillips tackled the QB after a 25 yd run there was no time for the FG unit to come out before the half. Those seem like "pressure situations" and he had as many more sacks "When we NEEDED a sack to get off the field."

Maybe Ware turns in plays that save/win 6 games for us (since he's making 3X what Phillips earns now,) but with just 19-20 games in the season, the odds are against it. I'm thrilled to have him, but at $10 million, can't help wondering if some of that's marginal returns that would've been greater had we spent it to keep Phillips and Woodyard and signed a top guard to do what Franklin can't.

Swagfactor?

TXBRONC
10-21-2014, 10:15 AM
Honestly, it's like Joel doesn't even watch the Broncos. Just reads the stat lines.

It seems that way to me as well.

Davii
10-21-2014, 10:22 AM
Someone asserted "Phillips did NOT get his 10 sacks... when it really mattered;" since he "only" had 10 sacks, they were easy to list. One saved and another won a game for us, and a third pushed a division rival out of FG range and forced them to burn their last time out, so when Phillips tackled the QB after a 25 yd run there was no time for the FG unit to come out before the half. Those seem like "pressure situations" and he had as many more sacks "When we NEEDED a sack to get off the field."

Maybe Ware turns in plays that save/win 6 games for us (since he's making 3X what Phillips earns now,) but with just 19-20 games in the season, the odds are against it. I'm thrilled to have him, but at $10 million, can't help wondering if some of that's marginal returns that would've been greater had we spent it to keep Phillips and Woodyard and signed a top guard to do what Franklin can't.

Any sacks in the playoffs? SB? Did he get Brady during that comeback?

What guard was available that you wish we signed, or are you just bitching because it's what you do?

TXBRONC
10-21-2014, 10:33 AM
Any sacks in the playoffs? SB? Did he get Brady during that comeback?

What guard was available that you wish we signed, or are you just bitching because it's what you do?

Phillips had two sacks against the Chargers in the divisional round of the playoffs and only had a handful of tackles in the AFCCG and Super Bowl combined.

Joel
10-21-2014, 10:52 AM
Two things Joel:

One, you can't have everything.
Especially putting all your eggs in one shiny new basket when there was nothing wrong with the old one. Would you rather have LaVonte David or Trevathan? Easy question—but what if it meant fitting $2˝ million under this years cap instead of Trevathans $600k?

Yet the bigger issue's this: I had to think really hard to come up with that example, because it's pretty much the ONLY place we have a good player that could be upgraded to elite; pretty much everyone else is either at or near the top of their game (so don't need replacing) or well below average (so any upgrade would be welcome. While that second group's mercifully small, dropping $10 million this year alone on Ware prevents making it smaller, because it leaves no money for other elite players, whether they're available or not. Some of those spots are pretty critical, but not manned by anyone comparable to Phillips.


Two while Phillips had a nice season his release isn't anywhere near as mind boggling as you think it is. Yes he had 10 sacks last season but he's never player who can apply pressure the Demarcus Ware can. Ware is hands down a much better complementary player to Miller than Phillips would ever be. Phillips doesn't get a lot of sacks by beating a tackle around the corner.
As a 255 lb. 3-4 OLB, he's sure not overpowering them, but got 80 sacks in 10 seasons doing SOMETHING. Ware's way better, no doubt, even considering Phillips also plays the run well—but not THREE TIMES better than a guy who was already pretty good. I WISH Franklin, Ramirez, Clark (Cornick?) Irving or Moore played THEIR starting roles as consistently well as Phillips plays his. For thrice what we're paying them, we could probably find an elite replacement—but we don't have that money anymore, because we spent it upgrading one position from good to great instead of 2-3 from bad to great.

Joel
10-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Swagfactor?
Well, $10 million is a lot of swag, if that's what you mean.

Ziggy
10-21-2014, 10:55 AM
I don't know - he doesn't even really like the Broncos and it's clear he's NOT a Manning fan.

It's common with fans who grew up rooting for a different team. They have no loyalty factor, hence no reason to be an optimist. They haven't gone through decades of hard times with a team, so there's no sense of true enjoyment when the good times roll around.

Joel
10-21-2014, 11:01 AM
Any sacks in the playoffs? SB? Did he get Brady during that comeback?

What guard was available that you wish we signed, or are you just bitching because it's what you do?
No, all he did was stop the Cowboys TWICE in a game where our injury-depleted D had trouble stopping them AT ALL, then stop a divisional rival (who led us by one game at the time) from closing the gap. If you want it in terms of playoff contributions, losing EITHER of those game would've put the AFCCG in Foxborough—(lose BOTH and the Chiefs win the AFCW while we're a wildcard: Again, sound fun?

I'd love to have Asamoah or Geoff Schwartz in Franklins place; Asamoah's a brutal run blocker, and Schwartz has starting OT experience so we wouldn't be shoving a 3rd yr UDFA out there not that Fox has come to terms with the absurdity of his claim Clark's "the NFLs best backup OT." I'm not a big Pro Football Focus fan, but they said Schwartz was a better guard than anyone but Evan Mathis: Franklin's... not....


Phillips had two sacks against the Chargers in the divisional round of the playoffs and only had a handful of tackles in the AFCCG and Super Bowl combined.
Did ANYONE get a sack in the SB? Should we dump all those guys for All Pros, too? Against SD in the playoffs: Again, if an opponent just recovered an onside kick, it's probably a good time for a sack.

TXBRONC
10-21-2014, 11:09 AM
Especially putting all your eggs in one shiny new basket when there was nothing wrong with the old one. Would you rather have LaVonte David or Trevathan? Easy question—but what if it meant fitting $2˝ million under this years cap instead of Trevathans $600k?

Yet the bigger issue's this: I had to think really hard to come up with that example, because it's pretty much the ONLY place we have a good player that could be upgraded to elite; pretty much everyone else is either at or near the top of their game (so don't need replacing) or well below average (so any upgrade would be welcome. While that second group's mercifully small, dropping $10 million this year alone on Ware prevents making it smaller, because it leaves no money for other elite players, whether they're available or not. Some of those spots are pretty critical, but not manned by anyone comparable to Phillips.


As a 255 lb. 3-4 OLB, he's sure not overpowering them, but got 80 sacks in 10 seasons doing SOMETHING. Ware's way better, no doubt, even considering Phillips also plays the run well—but not THREE TIMES better than a guy who was already pretty good. I WISH Franklin, Ramirez, Clark (Cornick?) Irving or Moore played THEIR starting roles as consistently well as Phillips plays his. For thrice what we're paying them, we could probably find an elite replacement—but we don't have that money anymore, because we spent it upgrading one position from good to great instead of 2-3 from bad to great.

Well Denver didn't put all their eggs in one basket. Like everything you missed what Denver did because you actually do follow what the Broncos do.

TXBRONC
10-21-2014, 11:10 AM
No, all he did was stop the Cowboys TWICE in a game where our injury-depleted D had trouble stopping them AT ALL, then stop a divisional rival (who led us by one game at the time) from closing the gap. If you want it in terms of playoff contributions, losing EITHER of those game would've put the AFCCG in Foxborough—(lose BOTH and the Chiefs win the AFCW while we're a wildcard: Again, sound fun?

I'd love to have Asamoah or Geoff Schwartz in Franklins place; Asamoah's a brutal run blocker, and Schwartz has starting OT experience so we wouldn't be shoving a 3rd yr UDFA out there not that Fox has come to terms with the absurdity of his claim Clark's "the NFLs best backup OT." I'm not a big Pro Football Focus fan, but they said Schwartz was a better guard than anyone but Evan Mathis: Franklin's... not....


Did ANYONE get a sack in the SB? Should we dump all those guys for All Pros, too? Against SD in the playoffs: Again, if an opponent just recovered an onside kick, it's probably a good time for a sack.

I just simply stated a fact genius.

Hawgdriver
10-21-2014, 01:58 PM
Well, $10 million is a lot of swag, if that's what you mean.

Now you are getting it!

Davii
10-21-2014, 02:04 PM
Are you never ******* pleased? My god man, it's beyond ridiculous and absolutely retarded at this point.

"All I want is a complete game" well, you got it. So ****.

LawDog
10-21-2014, 06:13 PM
I'm still not convinced the upgrade from Phillips to Ware was proportional to the cost, but there's no denying the guy's earning his paycheck. The main thing is that, like Phillips (and UNlike Doom) he's as good against the run as the pass, so we're not paying him millions to spend 85% of the game on the bench: He plays EVERY down—and well—not just third.

Overall, this is a good example of why stats can be misleading: After by far our best defensive performance all year, we actually FELL from 4th to 6th in total yds/gm. That doesn't mean we suddenly started leaking though, it means we dominated SF so totally on both sides of the ball that they were in a 2:00 drill nearly the whole second half while we went to Prevent early, making them spend the whole half racking up tons of easy over-the-middle yardage to end up with just ONE score (also, Oz and the second teamers played most of the 4th, so we abruptly started punting a lot.)

Shorter post, so picked this to refute Joel's random assertions not based in truth...

"went to Prevent early"

2nd Half SF possessions:
3 and Interception
3 and Out
3 and Out
8 plays, 16 yards net, punt
15 plays, 79 yards net, over on downs after TD called back by penalty
9 plays, 55 yards net, TD

So the last two drives in the 4th quarter were arguably in "prevent". Don't see that as early or unusual given the score and our dominance. Result = claim is FALSE

"OZ and 2nd teamers played in 4th so we abruptly started punting a lot"

4 punts total during the game. The first after a stalled drive at the end of the first/beginning of second quarter. The second after a brief drive to begin the 3rd quarter. The final two in the fourth quarter under OZ when we switched to a run only offense (only one pass attempt in the fourth quarter). Result = claim is FALSE.

Overall, this is a good example of why people don't read your stuff Joel, just sayin'

MOtorboat
10-22-2014, 12:54 AM
Well, surely THAT thread he couldn't have...click.

Damn. That one too.

:tsk:

CrazyHorse
10-22-2014, 01:12 AM
Von Miller 8 sacks, DeMarcus Ware 7 sacks after 6 games. I hope the Chargers O-line comes to play Thursday.

He'll be spending lots of time on his back.

capt. Jack
10-22-2014, 04:35 AM
Ware brings much needed leadership and wisdom to the D!
He's a big scary dude!

:)

Joel
10-22-2014, 05:22 AM
So the last two drives in the 4th quarter were arguably in "prevent". Don't see that as early or unusual given the score and our dominance. Result = claim is FALSE
We were in Prevent pretty much the whole 4th qtr, which is why they had over a third of their yards and plays on the last two drives, but only had 7 pts to show for it. We didn't go to Prevent TOO early given the score and our dominance, but BECAUSE of the score and our dominance we went to Prevent a lot earlier than in most games. But hey, if you want to argue we dropped two spots in defensive pass rankings because we played poorly rather than because we were giving them easy passes over the middle to burn clock and finish them off, no one's stopping you.


"OZ and 2nd teamers played in 4th so we abruptly started punting a lot"

4 punts total during the game. The first after a stalled drive at the end of the first/beginning of second quarter. The second after a brief drive to begin the 3rd quarter. The final two in the fourth quarter under OZ when we switched to a run only offense (only one pass attempt in the fourth quarter). Result = claim is FALSE.
We didn't even have a FIRST DOWN in the 4th qtr, but did have HALF our punts; sure sounds like punting a lot. We didn't have the BALL many times, because when THEY had the ball we were in Prevent making them spend >7:00 (half the quarter) to race down the field and give it back at our 8, but when we DID have the ball, it was two three-and-outs with Oz and the second team. Claim=Proven, by YOU, no less.


Overall, this is a good example of why people don't read your stuff Joel, just sayin'
No, this is a good example of people NOT reading my posts, but responding to what they THINK I said anyway.

SR
10-22-2014, 10:24 AM
We were in Prevent pretty much the whole 4th qtr, which is why they had over a third of their yards and plays on the last two drives, but only had 7 pts to show for it. We didn't go to Prevent TOO early given the score and our dominance, but BECAUSE of the score and our dominance we went to Prevent a lot earlier than in most games. But hey, if you want to argue we dropped two spots in defensive pass rankings because we played poorly rather than because we were giving them easy passes over the middle to burn clock and finish them off, no one's stopping you. We didn't even have a FIRST DOWN in the 4th qtr, but did have HALF our punts; sure sounds like punting a lot. We didn't have the BALL many times, because when THEY had the ball we were in Prevent making them spend >7:00 (half the quarter) to race down the field and give it back at our 8, but when we DID have the ball, it was two three-and-outs with Oz and the second team. Claim=Proven, by YOU, no less. No, this is a good example of people NOT reading my posts, but responding to what they THINK I said anyway.

So effing what? The score was 42-10 heading in to the fourth. What exactly are you trying to argue? We won the friggin game 42-17. Are rankings THAT important to you?! Even you have stated that being up by a lot and forcing teams to pass has a negative effect on our rankings thus rendering our defensive ranking a tad skewed. I don't get why you try so hard to argue the DUMBEST points.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 10:30 AM
Stuff.


So effing what?

Rebuttal? :lol:

LawDog
10-22-2014, 10:31 AM
We were in Prevent pretty much the whole 4th qtr, which is why they had over a third of their yards and plays on the last two drives, but only had 7 pts to show for it. We didn't go to Prevent TOO early given the score and our dominance, but BECAUSE of the score and our dominance we went to Prevent a lot earlier than in most games. But hey, if you want to argue we dropped two spots in defensive pass rankings because we played poorly rather than because we were giving them easy passes over the middle to burn clock and finish them off, no one's stopping you.


We didn't even have a FIRST DOWN in the 4th qtr, but did have HALF our punts; sure sounds like punting a lot. We didn't have the BALL many times, because when THEY had the ball we were in Prevent making them spend >7:00 (half the quarter) to race down the field and give it back at our 8, but when we DID have the ball, it was two three-and-outs with Oz and the second team. Claim=Proven, by YOU, no less.


No, this is a good example of people NOT reading my posts, but responding to what they THINK I said anyway.

No, I responded to what you ACTUALLY wrote in your post, using FACTS not what I THOUGHT. I will leave prevent alone because you just can't help but contradict yourself in the same paragraph. As for the punts however - you claimed that we "ABRUPTLY" started punting... "A LOT". That is just false. We only punted 4 times in the game, which is the precise average number of punts we've had at home this year. We have averaged 8 punts per game on the road. Yes we punted twice late, but that isn't a lot nor was it abrupt.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 10:33 AM
Yeah I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Seemed like the Broncos had a 32 point lead and prioritized resting key players and letting backups get some reps while running out the clock. What's the issue here?

BroncoJoe
10-22-2014, 10:34 AM
Yeah I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Seemed like the Broncos had a 32 point lead and prioritized resting key players and letting backups get some reps while running out the clock. What's the issue here?

Joel.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 10:40 AM
Joel.

Yes, sad how often the threads titles are misleading as to content therein. Whether he's a lightning rod or instigator, it's unclear, but either way it's highly correlated.

Joel
10-22-2014, 10:51 AM
So effing what? The score was 42-10 heading in to the fourth. What exactly are you trying to argue? We won the friggin game 42-17. Are rankings THAT important to you?! Even you have stated that being up by a lot and forcing teams to pass has a negative effect on our rankings thus rendering our defensive ranking a tad skewed. I don't get why you try so hard to argue the DUMBEST points.
The highlighted part's why I brought it all up—so the "Joel hates Denver" crowd's "explaining" MY OWN POINT to me because they didn't bother READING it, just skimmed for an excuse to shout, "J'ACCUSE!"


No, I responded to what you ACTUALLY wrote in your post, using FACTS not what I THOUGHT. I will leave prevent alone because you just can't help but contradict yourself in the same paragraph. As for the punts however - you claimed that we "ABRUPTLY" started punting... "A LOT". That is just false. We only punted 4 times in the game, which is the precise average number of punts we've had at home this year. We have averaged 8 punts per game on the road. Yes we punted twice late, but that isn't a lot nor was it abrupt.
Fine: When the second team came in we didn't start punting "abruptly"—even though our previous 3 drives were TDs. We also didn't start punting "a lot"—even though we NEVER GOT ANOTHER FIRST DOWN.


Yeah I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Seemed like the Broncos had a 32 point lead and prioritized resting key players and letting backups get some reps while running out the clock. What's the issue here?
The issue is you or anyone else can say that, but if I say it the same ol' handful o' folks declare it a stealth attack on all things Denver, and prima facie proof I hate the Broncos. And, yeah, that same small group does pretty much ANYWHERE I post, EVERY time. Maybe it's not lightning I draw; lightning doesn't cuss people out, fling ad homs and then order Mods to ban someone ELSE.

SR
10-22-2014, 11:11 AM
The highlighted part's why I brought it all up—so the "Joel hates Denver" crowd's "explaining" MY OWN POINT to me because they didn't bother READING it, just skimmed for an excuse to shout, "J'ACCUSE!" Fine: When the second team came in we didn't start punting "abruptly"—even though our previous 3 drives were TDs. We also didn't start punting "a lot"—even though we NEVER GOT ANOTHER FIRST DOWN. The issue is you or anyone else can say that, but if I say it the same ol' handful o' folks declare it a stealth attack on all things Denver, and prima facie proof I hate the Broncos. And, yeah, that same small group does pretty much ANYWHERE I post, EVERY time. Maybe it's not lightning I draw; lightning doesn't cuss people out, fling ad homs and then order Mods to ban someone ELSE.

Again I say...you're arguing what point EXACTLY.


Who is number one in the power rankings in Vegas and otherwise? Duh Brawncos. All this crap you're saying is dumb. The team is 5-1, has won three in a row and five of six against all teams that had 10 wins or more last year except the Jets, and are widely considered the best and most complete team in football. What in god's name do you really have to complain about? Except maybe the Texans being embarrassed on MNF.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 11:46 AM
Joel's point is that we should have kept Phillips and used the savings to improve the O line. Not a popular suggestion, but it's an interesting point to debate.

I think a concise rebuttal with a hard-hitting point would be more effective for Joel compared to a rebuttal treatise. There's a groan factor associated with the rebuttal treatises and that's when things go sideways for Joel.

Slick
10-22-2014, 12:01 PM
Joel's point is that we should have kept Phillips and used the savings to improve the O line. Not a popular suggestion, but it's an interesting point to debate.

I think a concise rebuttal with a hard-hitting point would be more effective for Joel compared to a rebuttal treatise. There's a groan factor associated with the rebuttal treatises and that's when things go sideways for Joel.

I'm sure that was discussed in the Bronco war room. I was hoping we'd grab a guard in the first round if a stud was available but it's pretty hard to argue the Roby pick.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 12:08 PM
I'm sure that was discussed in the Bronco war room. I was hoping we'd grab a guard in the first round if a stud was available but it's pretty hard to argue the Roby pick.

It had to be, right? Like TX said, you can't have everything. And I think Ware's presence alone, outside of his production, is a valuable asset. He helps give the defense an identity and that might justify his price tag.

Joel
10-22-2014, 12:08 PM
Again I say...you're arguing what point EXACTLY.

Overall, this is a good example of why stats can be misleading
That is, if we play our best defensive game all year (as we did) yet FALL from 4th to 6th in statistical defense rankings, that shows stats CAN'T "show" everything. Here, they don't show we beat SF so BADLY they spent most of the second half frantically throwing deep in a desperate but vain try to make the final respectable, and we cheerfully gave them the middle of the field to trade yards for time. The stats don't show our second team offense played the whole 4th qtr running plunges and the CLOCK against a good run D. So SD leapfrogged us in defensive stats despite LOSING while we CRUSHED SF.

I KNOW you didn't miss that, because you REFERENCED it; if you can read it all yet inexplicably turn it into "Joel still says we suck," you'll do so with WHATEVER I say, however positive: YOU JUST DID.


Who is number one in the power rankings in Vegas and otherwise? Duh Brawncos. All this crap you're saying is dumb. The team is 5-1, has won three in a row and five of six against all teams that had 10 wins or more last year except the Jets, and are widely considered the best and most complete team in football. What in god's name do you really have to complain about? Except maybe the Texans being embarrassed on MNF.
Power rankings are worthless; we've been over that, too. House power rankings are EXTRA worthless, because all they show is how much Vegas must favor each team to ensure equal numbers bet both sides so the house ALWAYS wins no matter what happens on the field. The Texans have nothing to do with that; bringing them up is just a cheap shot at me (i.e. personal) because I'm from Houston.

Joel
10-22-2014, 12:16 PM
Joel's point is that we should have kept Phillips and used the savings to improve the O line. Not a popular suggestion, but it's an interesting point to debate.
Thanks for taking the time to see it; reasonable men can differ, but it's a lot more fun when they do so reasonably.


I think a concise rebuttal with a hard-hitting point would be more effective for Joel compared to a rebuttal treatise. There's a groan factor associated with the rebuttal treatises and that's when things go sideways for Joel.
I've tried that; it just ends with accusations I ignored points and/or made broad generalizations that don't account for exceptions. If someone wants a fight badly enough, they'll INVENT a reason.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 12:17 PM
Joel I think you'd get more respect if you respected your readership's time and effort by trying to advance the discussion with your most concise and impactful statements to each issue. The extra words don't help your cause in my opinion.

Not that you asked for an editor, but I'd say:

My point was that stats are misleading. I made it, let's move on unless you disagree.

I've got some power rankings for you:

1. Joel
2. Seeing Red

Now please quit attacking my fanhood. Go Broncos! :lol:

Ah man now my ish is going sideways. :lol:

MOtorboat
10-22-2014, 12:41 PM
Prevent is not even a ******* scheme.

SR
10-22-2014, 01:33 PM
It had to be, right? Like TX said, you can't have everything. And I think Ware's presence alone, outside of his production, is a valuable asset. He helps give the defense an identity and that might justify his price tag.

More or less, I feel comfortable with the FO's choice to shuffle a couple guys on our O-Line to put a solid line in front of Manning while spending big on the defense. It's working. Might not be a great run blocking O-Line, but Peyton Manning isn't a running back. Build the team to the strengths that are already on the roster and do what you can with what you have to make the weaknesses on the team (the running game) work. Seems like a pretty logical approach to me.

SR
10-22-2014, 01:34 PM
Thanks for taking the time to see it; reasonable men can differ, but it's a lot more fun when they do so reasonably. I've tried that; it just ends with accusations I ignored points and/or made broad generalizations that don't account for exceptions. If someone wants a fight badly enough, they'll INVENT a reason.

If that's your point, say that and not 19,928 other words that hopscotch around your point.

Hawgdriver
10-22-2014, 01:34 PM
It's working.

The bottom line, mf'ers.