Hochman: Broncos' line nothing short of offensive at times

[Denver Native (Carol)]

On the NFL injury front, referee Brad Allen is expected to be out four to six weeks because of a rotator cuff injury. Allen suffered the injury Sunday, throwing an in-ordinate amount of flags after Denver penalties.

I think Orlando Franklin was called for a penalty while you just read that silly paragraph.

At times this season, the Broncos' offensive line has been just that, and against the New York Jets, man, there were more yellow flags than at an LSU tailgate.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/hochman/ci_26722462/hochman-broncos-line-nothing-short-offensive-at-times

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Quite the review of Thomas's blocking ability by Shannon Sharpe.


"He doesn't even give the appearance that it means anything to him, and that's what blocking is — wanting to," Broncos Ring of Fame tight end Shannon Sharpe recently said in a phone interview. "You don't have to be the greatest technician, but you've got to care, just a little. He couldn't block the sun out of his eyes."

[Bronco9798]

He scores TD'S!!!! :D

[NightTrainLayne]

LMAO. "He couldn't block the sun out of his eyes".

That is freaking hilarious. . . and true. I love Shannon.

[DenBronx]

Yeah he cant block but he finds the endzone. His blocking abilities will develop with time.

[underrated29]

Don't let the Ronnie Hillman people see this article. They have assured me it is the rbs who were the issue not the OL or Te

[NightTrainLayne]

Don't let the Ronnie Hillman people see this article. They have assured me it is the rbs who were the issue not the OL or Te

I was discussing this via telephone with BDB last night. The post-game comments from Manning, Fox, et al, sure seemed to leave the impression that Hillman was the beneficiary of the Jets selling out to stop the pass, vs. us imposing our will running the ball.

The O-Line grades from Pro-Football focus posted in another thread seem to back that up.

All that being said. .. . I'm not sure anyone has sold out to stop the run against us either. I.E., the degree to which the Jets ignored the run can only be slightly different than how other teams have played us. Nobody's going to ignore our passing game.

[underrated29]

I was discussing this via telephone with BDB last night. The post-game comments from Manning, Fox, et al, sure seemed to leave the impression that Hillman was the beneficiary of the Jets selling out to stop the pass, vs. us imposing our will running the ball.

The O-Line grades from Pro-Football focus posted in another thread seem to back that up.

All that being said. .. . I'm not sure anyone has sold out to stop the run against us either. I.E., the degree to which the Jets ignored the run can only be slightly different than how other teams have played us. Nobody's going to ignore our passing game.




Sold out to stop the run, no. But I took pictures from each of the games montee played in. Showing at times 5 down and 3 more in the box. Four in the box with 5 down too, but that was an obvious 3 and 1 short yardage play so I don't count that. In any event we have faced much stiffer fronts and boxes then what we did with the jets is week. It's not even on the same plane.

[BroncoJoe]

The picture you sent me made me less skeptical. I'll have to see if NFLN is doing a replay and watch I guess. I doubt (with the pressure Manning was under) they were "always" in a 2-4 man front.

Here's what UR sent me, after I insisted his ridiculous claim of a two man front was false:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b48/JoeArthur/IMG_2693_zps1ntkjcmv.jpg

[Northman]

Lmao,

People need to read the title of the article again. No one who has criticized Montee Ball has not said the offensive line has no fault or blame at anytime. In fact, most of us have said they have their fair number of issues. And Sunday they certainly had some but the brunt of the running game woes have still fallen more on the RB's (and in this case Ball) who was just not doing anything when even given lanes to run with. The theory by UR and some that the brunt of the blame should be on the Oline was debunked last week and continued through this week. There was no miraculous change in scheme just to suit Hillman or Thompson, they are just better runners at this point and being far more effective than Ball was before his injury.

[Northman]

The picture you sent me made me less skeptical. I'll have to see if NFLN is doing a replay and watch I guess. I doubt (with the pressure Manning was under) they were "always" in a 2-4 man front.

Here's what UR sent me, after I insisted his ridiculous claim of a two man front was false:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b48/JoeArthur/IMG_2693_zps1ntkjcmv.jpg

I can guarantee you that was not case a majority of the time. Hillman was making 5-6 yd runs with almost 4-5 guys in the box and with blitzers. Its easy to cherry pick a moment from a game when most of the people on here dont record the games or spend all day screen shotting a couple of moments out of the game.

[Joel]

Someone tell this Hoachman he's not smarter than our coaches, who've all said the same as him all season (because they are No True Broncos Fans.)

Our passing long covered a multitude of sins by blockers: Teams must "run to establish the pass" & protect QBs to prevent sacks, so shattered passing records inductively PROVED great run AND pass blocking.

The reality is Mannings quick reads and throws are better than anyone since Marino—maybe EVER—and he's had three All Pro receivers plus a good #4 two years running. People point to his low sack totals to vindicate our pass blocking, but he gets sacked about as much as he did throughout his Indy tenure (i.e. rarely.) Let's not forget what happened when Indys line went to Hell: A defender snapped Mannings neck so badly he missed the whole 2011 season, and threatened his CAREER so badly it cost a first ballot HoFer his job as not just "franchise QB" but "the franchise."

It's like when people pointed to the 2011 Broncos leading the NFL in rushing and said, "See, great run blocking" while ignoring the fact McGahee ALSO led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT and Denver ran more than any team but Houston: Running incessantly guarantees high yardage totals even if none of them gets very much. Our runs still got a lot in 2011, because McGahee broke a TON of tackles—and got hurt a LOT doing it, so Moreno kept finding his way back into the lineup until he got hurt, too and everyone called him weak.

Even the best smoke and mirrors won't work forever though, and the SB "exposed" (Adam Gases word, not mine) the truth of how much and how long Manning had been compensating for his line, just as this season's been exposing how much McGahee and then Moreno did the same. Clady's a stud who actually DOES keep out pass rushers and push back run stuffers, just as Vasquez is an excellent protector and adequate pusher; those OTHER guys though... ugh.... :tsk:

I keep hoping they just need a little more time to gel, since each of them has someone new at his side (Franklin has a new teammate on BOTH sides, and moved to a spot he hasn't played since college.) There's little evidence of it so far though; right now, we still need a QB and RB who can compensate for shoddy blocking, and no longer have the RB to do so, which is all the more ominous since the SB showed our coaches and everyone elses that even Manning has limits to what he can do unaided.

[Joel]

Lmao,

People need to read the title of the article again. No one who has criticized Montee Ball has not said the offensive line has no fault or blame at anytime. In fact, most of us have said they have their fair number of issues. And Sunday they certainly had some but the brunt of the running game woes have still fallen more on the RB's (and in this case Ball) who was just not doing anything when even given lanes to run with. The theory by UR and some that the brunt of the blame should be on the Oline was debunked last week and continued through this week. There was no miraculous change in scheme just to suit Hillman or Thompson, they are just better runners at this point and being far more effective than Ball was before his injury.
Oh, they're definitely not mutually exclusive and—while Ball's broken MANY tackles this year and I'm not sure Hillman's broken a dozen in his CAREER—the running production undeniably went up when Hillman took over for Ball, and has stayed up, with identical blockers. Hillman's finding the rare holes better, and their rarity makes that more critical than ever. If he can hang on to the freakin' BALL I'd definitely like to use him more, just not in short yardage/goal line/clock-killing scenarios, because 1) Ball has NO power and goes down on contact plus 2) Thompson's a BEAST at power running.

I don't expect them nor anyone else to have a 1000 yd season behind blocking this poor though; ANY RB has to spend far too much energy and time just to reach the LoS with that kind of blocking. At that point half the D's converging on them, and it's "make the first guy miss" not "make the first half dozen guys miss." If we want a guy to do that we'll have to wait till Barry Sanders' kid graduates.

[Bronco9798]

which is all the more ominous since the SB showed our coaches and everyone elses that even Manning has limits to what he can do unaided.

The Super Bowl didn't show much of anything. It showed that we were unprepared, not focused enough, and once the snap went bad it went all downhill from there. It went down quick. You just eat that one. As far as anything else, it showed nothing. We tried playing catch up football, we were in positions we weren't used to being in. We were chasing, we were used to have people chasing us. Performance wise that game showed nothing. We were not in our comfort zone on a big stage. That's my opinion. It was just a ******* nightmare and nobody knew how to handle it, including the coaches.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

JT has to improve as a blocker. There's just no excuse. I watched a little of the Cowboys-Texans game last week and I saw Jason Witten blocking JJ Watt man-up on some of Murray's bigger runs and holding his own. If Witten can block that monster, JT should be able to block smaller DEs and LBs.

[underrated29]

Lmao,

People need to read the title of the article again. No one who has criticized Montee Ball has not said the offensive line has no fault or blame at anytime. In fact, most of us have said they have their fair number of issues. And Sunday they certainly had some but the brunt of the running game woes have still fallen more on the RB's (and in this case Ball) who was just not doing anything when even given lanes to run with. The theory by UR and some that the brunt of the blame should be on the Oline was debunked last week and continued through this week. There was no miraculous change in scheme just to suit Hillman or Thompson, they are just better runners at this point and being far more effective than Ball was before his injury.


No my friend. That is the miraculous change. We did not face 2 in the box all game. But we did face far fewer fronts and loaded boxes then we have in ANY of the weeks prior.
Hillman should be able to run through those fronts as the blockers are less or equal to what we have. And he did. He still averaged less ypc in that game then ball did against the chiefs without 2 man fronts.

The games prior we have had more guys in the box. More guys up front. I am prepping to leave town but if you think I am just cherry picking a few plays, I will pull out my A game once I am back, and give a full break down of all the games with pictures of the boxes and fronts we faced prior to jets and during jets.

[G_Money]

Julius has the biggest advantage in blocking - reach. He doesn't have to be a great blocker, he just needs to be able to direct his man. There's no reason that shouldn't happen other than lack of want-to. He's an undeniable weapon in the passing game but basically worthless as a blocker. Shannon was bad when he got to the league too, but Julius is a MUCH bigger man. If he would take the leaps as a blocker that Shannon did he could be absolutely stupendous, instead of just stupifyingly good or bad (depending on the aspect of his game you're looking at).

JT and DT are both FAs, but if money forces us to choose between the two I would take DT in a heartbeat since that dude can make all the plays and block just fine. Maybe we should just have them switch positions: put JT on the outside where blocking responsibilities are minimal and let DT play some in-line. He was a blocker in college and is Shannon-Sharpe-sized himself. He's an incredible mismatch in the middle of the field.

Won't happen (and probably shouldn't). But a two-"TE" set with DT and JT on the line would be interesting. Regardless: send JT to blocking school.

[underrated29]

The Super Bowl didn't show much of anything. It showed that we were unprepared, not focused enough, and once the snap went bad it went all downhill from there. It went down quick. You just eat that one. As far as anything else, it showed nothing. We tried playing catch up football, we were in positions we weren't used to being in. We were chasing, we were used to have people chasing us. Performance wise that game showed nothing. We were not in our comfort zone on a big stage. That's my opinion. It was just a ******* nightmare and nobody knew how to handle it, including the coaches.


yup.
I kinda think we spent our wad the week (yes i know technically it was two weeks) prior with New England. They had beaten us twice and we dominated and man did our guys (deservedly so) celebrate after the clock struck zero. I think maybe they went a little all out thinking they were our biggest enemy and we could coast to victory over seattle or san fran. Even the game plan just seemed meh to me. I think beating New England went to our heads a little.

[Bronco9798]

The offensive line creates hole, seems, gaps, whatever you want to call them. It's a quick hole and the RB has to have vision and hit that hole, seem, whatever you want to call it. Ball had poor vision and has no burst. Hillman has better vision and is quicker. It's really simple. And no he's not going to shake tackles and he's not going to carry people. But a lot of RB's don't do that, some do, yes. But it's ok, once the RB hits the next level he's on his own and as long as Hillman has some real estate in front of him he's going a lot further than Ball would ever go. You just need PRODUCTION from the RB, not a home run every time. it's going to be ok. There are other facets of the offense. We are great in one and we just need some production from the other. The passing game will hit the home runs. The running game will be productive though.

[GEM]

No my friend. That is the miraculous change. We did not face 2 in the box all game. But we did face far fewer fronts and loaded boxes then we have in ANY of the weeks prior.
Hillman should be able to run through those fronts as the blockers are less or equal to what we have. And he did. He still averaged less ypc in that game then ball did against the chiefs without 2 man fronts.

The games prior we have had more guys in the box. More guys up front. I am prepping to leave town but if you think I am just cherry picking a few plays, I will pull out my A game once I am back, and give a full break down of all the games with pictures of the boxes and fronts we faced prior to jets and during jets.

And what was the excuse for the week before that?

[tomjonesrocks]

yup. I kinda think we spent our wad the week (yes i know technically it was two weeks) prior with New England. They had beaten us twice and we dominated and man did our guys (deservedly so) celebrate after the clock struck zero. I think maybe they went a little all out thinking they were our biggest enemy and we could coast to victory over seattle or san fran. Even the game plan just seemed meh to me. I think beating New England went to our heads a little.

Or it could be Seattle is just a straight-up, much better football team outright, from coaching on down.

They did just beat Denver again a few weeks ago.

[Joel]

Julius has the biggest advantage in blocking - reach. He doesn't have to be a great blocker, he just needs to be able to direct his man. There's no reason that shouldn't happen other than lack of want-to. He's an undeniable weapon in the passing game but basically worthless as a blocker. Shannon was bad when he got to the league too, but Julius is a MUCH bigger man. If he would take the leaps as a blocker that Shannon did he could be absolutely stupendous, instead of just stupifyingly good or bad (depending on the aspect of his game you're looking at).

JT and DT are both FAs, but if money forces us to choose between the two I would take DT in a heartbeat since that dude can make all the plays and block just fine. Maybe we should just have them switch positions: put JT on the outside where blocking responsibilities are minimal and let DT play some in-line. He was a blocker in college and is Shannon-Sharpe-sized himself. He's an incredible mismatch in the middle of the field.

Won't happen (and probably shouldn't). But a two-"TE" set with DT and JT on the line would be interesting. Regardless: send JT to blocking school.
That's not a horrible idea; as you say, DT's a committed blocker and big guy himself (if not 250 lbs.) and I've been saying for a while that if we're gonna overrule the college coach who told Orange Julius to play TE when he asked to play WR, we should just be honest about it and find a REAL TE. But you're also right it'll never happen; DT's a Pro Bowler and legit #1 WR, so moving to TE would likely mean a big pay cut he'd never accept, not when he can get teh money and role he deserves from pretty much any NFL team.

[Bronco9798]

I'll take JT all day long and work around his inability to block. You don't let an offensive weapon like him walk away if you can afford it. Dude's a beast on the goal line. You guys are getting too technical on his blocking abilities. He hasn't played football all his life. He's a young raw talent that you just don't throw away.

[Joel]

What's technical about it? Dude can't block, period—not even "just get in the way for a half-second" like most receiving TEs. If he's ONLY a WR, let's stop kidding ourselves, MAKE him a WR and get an ACTUAL TE. As it is, every time he's in there it's practically going 4 wide, and that definitely effects our run game.

[dogfish]

LMAO. "He couldn't block the sun out of his eyes".

That is freaking hilarious. . . and true. I love Shannon.

people NEED to blow up JT's twitter with that shit. . . U29, and anyone else who uses tweeter, get on it!

[Bronco9798]

what's technical about it? Dude can't block, period—not even "just get in the way for a half-second" like most receiving tes. If he's only a wr, let's stop kidding ourselves, make him a wr and get an actual te. As it is, every time he's in there it's practically going 4 wide, and that definitely effects our run game.

w L
4 1

[Valar Morghulis]

I'll take JT all day long and work around his inability to block. You don't let an offensive weapon like him walk away if you can afford it. Dude's a beast on the goal line. You guys are getting too technical on his blocking abilities. He hasn't played football all his life. He's a young raw talent that you just don't throw away.

This.

[Valar Morghulis]

Or it could be Seattle is just a straight-up, much better football team outright, from coaching on down.

They did just beat Denver again a few weeks ago.

Seattle were a straight up better football team in February - i do not believe this is true anymore.

Denver were one down away from having the chance to make the Seahawks a 2-3 team this year, i would take seattle in the superbowl again this year - no problems

[underrated29]

And what was the excuse for the week before that?



What excuse?
All I have done is post facts and stats and direct quotes from the coaches and our qb. They have all been dismissed by the Ronnie Hillman excuses. There is an excuse for ronnie for ronnie for each game. I have even see people excuse his fumble!!!!


But if you want some facts (im sure you dont) but here you go:

Colias Campbell who was wreaking havoc against us went out with injury.
The Cards had THIRTEEN (13) consecutive drives of 4 plays or less. Our defense set a record for that but their defense played nearly the entire second half of football. That is also the time that our run game started to get a little juice. Coincidence? Not if you make excuses for ronnie hillman. The rest of us understand what happens to a defense when they get 4 plays of rest before being back on the field 13 times in a row!

Its been reported ( I have not gone back and looked) that Julius Thomas missed on nearly all of his blocks the first half (This we all know, we saw it) but apparantly in the second half he was successful with nearly all of his blocks. That helps.

More importantly we started running down hill. All of our stretch plays got shut down, this week and last. Ronnie couldnt get outside either for more than a yard or two. When we run right at them, franklin doesnt have to pull (cuz he cant) and manram doesnt whiff we actually run the ball really effectively. (Notice- we have done this since week 2- so sorry, you cannot make excuses for ronnie here either) I also have posts mentioning such things back in week 2 and 3 as evidence should you not believe me.
And last but not least, we also ran out of different formations once ball went out. Formations we have not or rarely run out of before.


But lets not let these get in the way of our fantasy that ball was the reason our run game sucks and ronnie is the savior. The problem will still exist, sadly, I bet this sunday night.

[underrated29]

people NEED to blow up JT's twitter with that shit. . . U29, and anyone else who uses tweeter, get on it!



Noooooo, I do not twitter amigo. I only do it at TC since we have not had any camp reports. Other than that I have never twittered and will not be doing it.

[underrated29]

Or it could be Seattle is just a straight-up, much better football team outright, from coaching on down.

They did just beat Denver again a few weeks ago.




Nah. Last year they were. This year, I am not so sure.

[dogfish]

Noooooo, I do not twitter amigo. I only do it at TC since we have not had any camp reports. Other than that I have never twittered and will not be doing it.

fine. . . :tsk:

what about MOseph?

[Ravage!!!]

I'll take JT all day long and work around his inability to block. You don't let an offensive weapon like him walk away if you can afford it. Dude's a beast on the goal line. You guys are getting too technical on his blocking abilities. He hasn't played football all his life. He's a young raw talent that you just don't throw away.

TEs like JT arent' common, and they create SERIOUS problems for defenses. Our offense wouldn't look nearly as deadly without that kind of guy at TE.

[GEM]

What excuse?
All I have done is post facts and stats and direct quotes from the coaches and our qb. They have all been dismissed by the Ronnie Hillman excuses. There is an excuse for ronnie for ronnie for each game. I have even see people excuse his fumble!!!!


But if you want some facts (im sure you dont) but here you go:

Colias Campbell who was wreaking havoc against us went out with injury.
The Cards had THIRTEEN (13) consecutive drives of 4 plays or less. Our defense set a record for that but their defense played nearly the entire second half of football. That is also the time that our run game started to get a little juice. Coincidence? Not if you make excuses for ronnie hillman. The rest of us understand what happens to a defense when they get 4 plays of rest before being back on the field 13 times in a row!

Its been reported ( I have not gone back and looked) that Julius Thomas missed on nearly all of his blocks the first half (This we all know, we saw it) but apparantly in the second half he was successful with nearly all of his blocks. That helps.

More importantly we started running down hill. All of our stretch plays got shut down, this week and last. Ronnie couldnt get outside either for more than a yard or two. When we run right at them, franklin doesnt have to pull (cuz he cant) and manram doesnt whiff we actually run the ball really effectively. (Notice- we have done this since week 2- so sorry, you cannot make excuses for ronnie here either) I also have posts mentioning such things back in week 2 and 3 as evidence should you not believe me.
And last but not least, we also ran out of different formations once ball went out. Formations we have not or rarely run out of before.


But lets not let these get in the way of our fantasy that ball was the reason our run game sucks and ronnie is the savior. The problem will still exist, sadly, I bet this sunday night.

Maybe it's a combo of both? Maybe the offensive line improved (After Sunday, I'm having a real hard time believing that) and the backs that are in there are just better than Ball. I'm not in love with any of them. I've already said their all pretty average and average isn't all that exciting. I gave Hillman some encouraging words last week and this week he again showed me why I'm down on him, he can't hang onto the ball. Ball is slow to the line and by that time, any lanes that the terrible run oline has created are already slammed shut. His job is to key in to the deficiency and beat it, he can't. Juwan looks exciting. He could turn out to be shit too, usually a reason why you go undrafted, but for the Broncos sake, I'm hoping he surprises us.

I'm not going to defend Ball or Hillman...to me, they both have issues. One is pretty slow off the ball and the other can't hang onto the ball.

Oh and save the "the rest of us know" shit...for some idiot that doesn't know anything about football. I am NOT a fan of Hillman, in fact, have been one of the biggest shit talkers it comes to in reference to him. If he weren't a Bronco tomorrow, I'd be good with it.

[GEM]

Ball didn't do anything special last year behind a line that was much better than this one.

I get it, you like the guy, that doesn't make him a good rb.

[Valar Morghulis]

Ball didn't do anything special last year behind a line that was much better than this one.

I get it, you like the guy, that doesn't make him a good rb.

i think it is time to admit i was wrong about Ball, never been a fan of Hillman, i doubt he runs over 100yds again this season - i just think both CJ and Juwan run harder, break tackles, hit holes quicker and seem more explosive (that is with the same o'line as Ball and Hillman)

Obviously i have no stats to back this up, it is just my observations from watching the games.

The difference between Ball and Hillman is i think Ball will be a good fit somewhere, maybe even in Denver given time, but i dont see Hillman in the league in 2 years time. In fact i think he will fumble in the niners game and then see his game time cut, culminating in his eventual cut from the team.

[dogfish]

Ball didn't do anything special last year behind a line that was much better than this one.

I get it, you like the guy, that doesn't make him a good rb.

whoa, missy. . . ball ran for 4.7 YPC last year, on a pretty decent sample size. . . he looked MUCH better down the stretch last year than he has this season, IMO. . . i thought he looked legit-- been super disappointed in the run game as a whole this year, and ball in particular. . . i don't think he looks like the same guy at all so far this year. . .

[tomjonesrocks]

i think it is time to admit i was wrong about Ball, never been a fan of Hillman, i doubt he runs over 100yds again this season - i just think both CJ and Juwan run harder, break tackles, hit holes quicker and seem more explosive (that is with the same o'line as Ball and Hillman) Obviously i have no stats to back this up, it is just my observations from watching the games. The difference between Ball and Hillman is i think Ball will be a good fit somewhere, maybe even in Denver given time, but i dont see Hillman in the league in 2 years time. In fact i think he will fumble in the niners game and then see his game time cut, culminating in his eventual cut from the team.

I agree. I really hope Juwan takes this job and makes the other backs change-of-pace guys.

He's the only guy I see that seems to be able to get yards without a lot of help.

As a bonus he doesn't seem like he needs 3 ******* years to learn how to play.

[Valar Morghulis]

i think it is time to admit i was wrong about Ball.

I still think he is a good back - just not the Terrell Davies that i thought he was going to be, but maybe that appendectomy set him back more than we know - i mean look at DT's drop in production with his foot injury before the bye week

[Bronco9798]

TEs like JT arent' common, and they create SERIOUS problems for defenses. Our offense wouldn't look nearly as deadly without that kind of guy at TE.

Yea, so let's tell his agent we arent interested in trying to negotiate a contract. He can't block and he's a pure liability. You can take his easy touchdowns and get T F O *** of Denver. Amazing.

[Bronco9798]

I still think he is a good back - just not the Terrell Davies that i thought he was going to be, but maybe that appendectomy set him back more than we know - i mean look at DT's drop in production with his foot injury before the bye week

Terrell Davis? Did you just say Terrell Davis? I just hit the floor. My wife is picking me up...Sorry man, I had too!!! All good!!!

[GEM]

whoa, missy. . . ball ran for 4.7 YPC last year, on a pretty decent sample size. . . he looked MUCH better down the stretch last year than he has this season, IMO. . . i thought he looked legit-- been super disappointed in the run game as a whole this year, and ball in particular. . . i don't think he looks like the same guy at all so far this year. . .

Eh, I guess a couple of games last seasons spelling Moreno just didn't get me too excited. It's a lot easier to get 4.7 on fresh legs. This season before he got hurt, he was the top back and didn't perform. Part of my issue with Ball is it's a constant comparison to Lacy for me. I watch a lot of GB because a couple of my kids (Lord have mercy on their souls) somehow ended up liking the Packers, and the difference between the two is night and day. I think I'll always compare them because we should have taken Lacy.

[Joel]

What excuse?
All I have done is post facts and stats and direct quotes from the coaches and our qb. They have all been dismissed by the Ronnie Hillman excuses. There is an excuse for ronnie for ronnie for each game. I have even see people excuse his fumble!!!!

But if you want some facts (im sure you dont) but here you go:

Colias Campbell who was wreaking havoc against us went out with injury.
The Cards had THIRTEEN (13) consecutive drives of 4 plays or less. Our defense set a record for that but their defense played nearly the entire second half of football. That is also the time that our run game started to get a little juice. Coincidence? Not if you make excuses for ronnie hillman. The rest of us understand what happens to a defense when they get 4 plays of rest before being back on the field 13 times in a row!

Its been reported ( I have not gone back and looked) that Julius Thomas missed on nearly all of his blocks the first half (This we all know, we saw it) but apparantly in the second half he was successful with nearly all of his blocks. That helps.
That's my take on Arizona, too: Hillman got his big runs after they lost THREE starters (though one was Peterson, which didn't help our run much) IN ADDITION to Abraham and a couple others being out before the kickoff. In other words, Hillman ran all over Arizonas with literally HALF their starting D out of the game. Plus, as GEM noted herself, he had fresh legs, while that half-strength D was competely gassed because their third string rookie couldn't keep them off the field to rest.


More importantly we started running down hill. All of our stretch plays got shut down, this week and last. Ronnie couldnt get outside either for more than a yard or two. When we run right at them, franklin doesnt have to pull (cuz he cant) and manram doesnt whiff we actually run the ball really effectively. (Notice- we have done this since week 2- so sorry, you cannot make excuses for ronnie here either) I also have posts mentioning such things back in week 2 and 3 as evidence should you not believe me.
And last but not least, we also ran out of different formations once ball went out. Formations we have not or rarely run out of before.

But lets not let these get in the way of our fantasy that ball was the reason our run game sucks and ronnie is the savior. The problem will still exist, sadly, I bet this sunday night.
I know that's a lot of bold text, but it CANNOT be overemphasized: Our linemen (with the exception of Clady and Vasquez) are straight up power blockers, great for surge, but COMPLETELY unsuited for the finesse ZBS runs Denver fans have come to expect since the championship seasons. Yet the coaches keep calling those misdirections, traps, stretches, draws and the like ANYWAY—despite drafting a power back last year, and adding 3 more as UDFAs the last two seasons: Hillman's the ONLY guy well suited to those plays, but our line CAN'T RUN THEM.

Maybe that'll change eventually, but until it does, gimme Thompson, Anderson and Ball on slams and dives inside—where almost ALL our few big gains have come this year—and skip the edge-running pulling guard stuff. I love those kinds of runs, but love 'em a lot more when they actually have a prayer of success, and the reality is we don't need the running game to hit home runs, because that's the passing games job and ours truly is historys best: All we need from the run is to move the chains, close out wins and keep the D honest 3 yds and a cloud of dust at a time.

[Joel]

I agree. I really hope Juwan takes this job and makes the other backs change-of-pace guys.

He's the only guy I see that seems to be able to get yards without a lot of help.

As a bonus he doesn't seem like he needs 3 ******* years to learn how to play.
All valid points, except Hillman's our SOLE change-of-pace guy; Ball, Anderson and Bibbs are all bigger power runners like Thompson. I think GEM's right though about Ball and Hillmans dueling deficiencies:

Ball has the power to break tackles, and often has—but can't find holes or lanes before they close, and their rarity and brevity with THIS blocking makes that more critical than ever.

Hillman (usually) finds lanes and follows his blockers—but drops like a puppet with his strings cut if anyone even breathes on him, and with THIS blocking tacklers do more than breathe, both early and often.

We need (in addition to MUCH better blocking) a RB who does more than just trade one big deficiency for another. A guy who lets us "change pace" by CHOICE, not because we're forced to run the scatback to get big gains outside the 20, then swap in the power runner to convert 3rd and 1 or 4th and G. That telegraphs the playcalls so they're easy to stop, which is why we need an every-down back. Thompson looks a lot more like that; all but ONE of his runs Sunday were for 3+ yds, and he made a nice spin move off a tackler to pick some extra on a 16 yd scamper.

Maybe he's the guy, maybe not; we'll have to give him >8 carries in a game to know whether Sunday was the rule or exception. What we DO know now, from far more than just 8 runs, is that neither Ball NOR Hillman is that guy, and whoever IS, we'll NEVER find him if we just keep feeding Hillman and Ball over and over again. They'd be OK with good blocking, and the line would be OK with good running, but we've probably got a better chance of finding (and thus fixing) one RB midseason than a pair of Gs and a RT.

[Simple Jaded]

You don't need to be Ben Hamilton/Dan Neil pumped up FB type G's to play in a ZBS, and Denver's lineman all have good athletic ability. As Chris Landry said on the radio, it's not like Denver's lineman can't fit in a run-first scheme, they just don't pratice in that scheme. Landry said this running scheme requires the same kind of timing and attention to detail that is needed in the passing game, it's just not practical to do both.

So if you're waiting for a throw back to that garbage 2011 offense you're gonna be disappointed.

Fwiw, Landry used to be a long time NFL scout, even spent a long time with the Oilers/Texans.

[Joel]

You don't need to be Ben Hamilton/Dan Neil pumped up FB type G's to play in a ZBS, and Denver's lineman all have good athletic ability.
Were that so, Clark wouldn't have been consistently OWNED by speed rushers all last season, and they wouldn't have been doing the same to Franklin just as consistently since his rookie year. It wasn't just the SB. Mathis took over the GAME last year brutalizing Clark in Indy last year, and it was easily the biggest reason we lost. Orakpo abused Clark so badly it produced turnovers that gave the awful 'Skins a 21-7 lead in OUR HOUSE, finally getting so bad we had to send Tamme in to help out our clearly overmatched LT.

We may not NEED a great pulling guard like Hamilton to BE our pulling guard, even with ZBS, but DO need one with SOME mobility, agility, reflexes and balance, not just someone to shout, "HULK SMASH!" and plow straight ahead. That'd be fine if we CALLED THOSE KINDS OF PLAYS (which I sorely wish we did,) but we don't, and can't afford a couple powerful statutes—ESPECIALLY at the primary pulling guard spot—if we keep running sweeps, counters, draws, traps and the like that REQUIRE INSIDE LINEMEN TO MOVE! Either call plays our linemen can execute or find linemen who can execute them.


As Chris Landry said on the radio, it's not like Denver's lineman can't fit in a run-first scheme, they just don't pratice in that scheme. Landry said this running scheme requires the same kind of timing and attention to detail that is needed in the passing game, it's just not practical to do both.
Likely so: Just one more reason to give up on the slow-developing misdirection crap only only two of our linemen and one or two of our RBs can execute, and go to the straight forward (literally and figuratively) power blocking ALL our lineme and FOUR of our RBs do well. We've FINALLY got five blockers to deliver that precious line surge you and I've both been screaming for since before Shanny left—we're just not USING it, instead sticking with the same old finesse ZBS stuff, even most of our linemen DON'T have the athleticism for that.


So if you're waiting for a throw back to that garbage 2011 offense you're gonna be disappointed.
I'm waiting for a throwback to that garbage of the '96-'98 offense, but Manning needs more protection than Elway did. That's fine; we don't need 2000 yd rushing seasons, just enough to move the chains, punch it in from the goal line, kill the clock with a late lead and—most importantly—deter the D using 8 man coverage/blitzes,


Fwiw, Landry used to be a long time NFL scout, even spent a long time with the Oilers/Texans.
Duly noted.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Watching JT block makes me miss Joel Dreessen. Dreessen wasn't anywhere near the elite receiver that JT is, but he was a great blocker and was also above average at receiving. I don't think we have a TE on the roster that fills that role.

JT has the size but not the skill and Tamme and Green are more FB/H back types not really big or strong enough for inline blocking. Our offense is setup perfectly to be pass first, pass often but not so much run first. We run so much out of shotgun looks that we just can't overpower the opposing defense. We have to out scheme them.

[Northman]

Watching JT block makes me miss Joel Dreessen. Dreessen wasn't anywhere near the elite receiver that JT is, but he was a great blocker and was also above average at receiving. I don't think we have a TE on the roster that fills that role.

JT has the size but not the skill and Tamme and Green are more FB/H back types not really big or strong enough for inline blocking. Our offense is setup perfectly to be pass first, pass often but not so much run first. We run so much out of shotgun looks that we just can't overpower the opposing defense. We have to out scheme them.

You just made Joel smile somewhere.

[Joel]

You just made Joel smile somewhere.
Two Joels; this is the reason I kept screaming for Dreesen when Orange Julius was whiffing blocks and getting Manning pasted against Indy and Washington, and the coaches finally heard me near the end against the latter. Dreesen's a TEs TE; not an elite blocker OR receiver, but VERY good at BOTH. He's a perfect example of what I mean when I say if we just want JT to be a 250 lb. WR we should MAKE him one and bring in an ACTUAL TE who knows how to do BOTH equally important halves of that job. That said, Green's a pretty good blocker, too, and had a couple nice catches before he got hurt.

[Simple Jaded]

Joel, I have absolutely zero interest in entertaining your attempt to critique which plays the Broncos should/shouldn't be running, I'll simply say that every single OL starting for the Denver Broncos are every single bit as capable of running whatever scheme/plays you think you want as your inexplicable love interests, Schwartz and Asamoah.

[Simple Jaded]

Joel, I have absolutely zero interest in entertaining your attempt to critique which plays the Broncos should/shouldn't be running, I'll simply say that every single OL starting for the Denver Broncos are every single bit as capable of running whatever scheme/plays you think you want as your inexplicable love interests, Schwartz and Asamoah.
Speaking of Schwartz and Asamoah, Schwartz hasn't played a single down because of a toe injury, just like Carl Nicks, according to combine numbers he's fatter, slower, less agile and has far shorter arms than Franklin and Vasquez. Asamoah has similar numbers as Franklin/Vasquez aside from arm length, and here's the kicker, Asamoah signed with one of the few teams that throw more than Denver and his scheme versatility and run-blocking prowess is good for a whopping 11 rushing yards more a game than Denver.

Sounds like Joel needs to break down Falcons running game and drop them a few pointers.

Jury is still out of Schwartz in 2014, but, he's been a 7th round scrub who is on his 3rd team in five years in the NFL.

FraNklin and Vasquez may not be Larry Allen and Bob Hannah but I've seen Joels preference in G's and Denver is just fine. Franklin and Vasquez are physically capable of doing whatever the Broncos ask of them, not so much for Schwartz and Asamoah.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Watching JT block makes me miss Joel Dreessen. Dreessen wasn't anywhere near the elite receiver that JT is, but he was a great blocker and was also above average at receiving. I don't think we have a TE on the roster that fills that role.

JT has the size but not the skill and Tamme and Green are more FB/H back types not really big or strong enough for inline blocking. Our offense is setup perfectly to be pass first, pass often but not so much run first. We run so much out of shotgun looks that we just can't overpower the opposing defense. We have to out scheme them.

You just made Joel smile somewhere.

If you're talking about Dreessen then I'm okay with that. If it's Morambar Joel then whatever. I'm really not trying to dog our Oline. Those guys do a good job for what they're asked to do. As far as they're concerned, we put them in tough situations, especially trying to run the ball. That's really what I'm trying to say.

It's hard to run block when you're lined up in passing formations (the shotgun) much of the time. The linemen are on their heels and the RB doesn't get that running start before the handoff.

I wouldn't trade JT for any TE in the league right now. I just wish he'd improve as a blocker and at least get in the way.

[VonDoom]

It's All Over, Fatman has a column up today from Doc Bear, whom I consider to be somewhat of an OL authority. Good read if anyone's interested:


There may be a tell, as Legwold asserts. I couldn’t see it, but that’s immaterial. There is unquestionably a problem with communication. Franklin is getting there quickly. I don’t see many problems with him. Chris Clark is struggling at RT. A bigger concern is that Ramirez has slid backwards a long way. Even Vasquez hasn’t been playing like himself.

As big as those concerns are, the problems with Ryan Clady are even more substantial. He’s not playing the run at anywhere near the level he did last year. When he blew out his knee playing basketball, it took him two years to come back completely. He’s not there now, and that’s a major issue. He’s given up no sacks, but three QB hits and eight hurries, along with two penalties.

The rest: http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/whats-wrong-with-the-broncos-offensive-line

[Ravage!!!]

LEt me guess... joel is telling the coaches how they should be running the offense again.

[Traveler]

Time to invest some high draft picks to begin rebuilding the OL.

[Joel]

Speaking of Schwartz and Asamoah, Schwartz hasn't played a single down because of a toe injury, just like Carl Nicks, according to combine numbers he's fatter, slower, less agile and has far shorter arms than Franklin and Vasquez.
According to COMBINE numbers, George Foster was the next Anthony Munoz; how'd that work out for us? Even a combine 40 can't reliably predict performance at speed postions like WR/DB/RB; the combine's even less valuable for predicting "unskilled" positions. In preseason, Schwartz went on RETURN-DESIGNATED IR (I see you've backed off your "out for the season" statement since I informed you of that) so he'll be back in a couple weeks; in the mean time, Pro Football Focus said Schwartzs per-down performance last year was BETTER THAN EVERYONE but Evan Mathis.


Asamoah has similar numbers as Franklin/Vasquez aside from arm length, and here's the kicker, Asamoah signed with one of the few teams that throw more than Denver and his scheme versatility and run-blocking prowess is good for a whopping 11 rushing yards more a game than Denver.

Sounds like Joel needs to break down Falcons running game and drop them a few pointers.
Wait: Asamoahs team runs LESS OFTEN for MORE YARDS yet that somehow proves Franklin's better? For whom, opponents?


Jury is still out of Schwartz in 2014, but, he's been a 7th round scrub who is on his 3rd team in five years in the NFL.
Terrell Davis and Tom Brady were 6th round scrubs, while Rod and Welker weren't drafted AT ALL. Nor was Night Train Lane, but his season Int record's still standing 62 years after he set as a ROOKIE playing 12-game seasons. Schwartz has started everywhere he's played, at both OT and OG; you'd have to ask his coaches why, and ask PFF why they said he was a better G than anyone but Evan Mathis in 2013.


FraNklin and Vasquez may not be Larry Allen and Bob Hannah but I've seen Joels preference in G's and Denver is just fine. Franklin and Vasquez are physically capable of doing whatever the Broncos ask of them
Then why DON'T they? If you're claiming they DO, you'll have to convince Fox, Gase, Manning, Hochman and plenty of other people far more knowledgeable about it than you or I.


not so much for Schwartz and Asamoah.
Tell it to PFF and the folks paying them what they're worth. Same old stuff:

"We want the ZBS and have big strong linemen!"

"The linemen are too slow and clumsy for ZBS."

"But we want the ZBS!"

"Then find some linemen with good agility, reflexes and balance."

"But we have big strong linemen!"

*Loud sigh*

[Joel]

LEt me guess... joel is telling the coaches how they should be running the offense again.
Apparently this Hochman guy is; direct all orange-kool-aid-soaked rants to him. ;)


Time to invest some high draft picks to begin rebuilding the OL.
Hey, we spent a 3rd round pick on one; not a guard, but hey, he's a lineman, and that's almost a high pick.

[Cugel]

Sold out to stop the run, no. But I took pictures from each of the games montee played in. Showing at times 5 down and 3 more in the box. Four in the box with 5 down too, but that was an obvious 3 and 1 short yardage play so I don't count that. In any event we have faced much stiffer fronts and boxes then what we did with the jets is week. It's not even on the same plane.

That's teams following the Seahawks game plan against the Broncos. Put 8 or even 9 men in the box. Take away the underneath passes. Smother the running game and dare the Broncos to throw over to the top of their defense to exploit one-on-one coverage on Demaryius Thomas and Julius Thomas on the outside.

They were saying all SB week "we're not going to change our defense to stop what they are doing, they're going to have to change to stop us!" And that's how it went. They say "we're rushing 4 and Michael Bennett will get to Peyton before he can throw to Demaryius Thomas 20 yards down field."

Every team in the NFL saw that and has tried to emulate it. That's one reason the bubble screens haven't worked well this season.

The only way to stop this is to burn teams deep so they have to bring their safeties back deep to double Demaryius and Sanders on the outside and get extra help to cover Julius Thomas. And the only way to get extra time with an immobile QB is to get an extra OL blocker in there and give Peyton the time to throw over the top of the defense.

[Joel]

That's teams following the Seahawks game plan against the Broncos.
Which is why Gase told Aikman Seattle "exposed us in the SB." Teams will keep doing it until/unless we make them pay for it; that's how football works.


Put 8 or even 9 men in the box. Take away the underneath passes. Smother the running game and dare the Broncos to throw over to the top of their defense to exploit one-on-one coverage on Demaryius Thomas and Julius Thomas on the outside.
Except that's NOT what Seattle does, against us or anyone: They DON'T stack the box, because they have many good coverage LBs playing shallow zones that shut down those underneath routes well, while their DBs run a lot of Cover 2 and even Cover 3: Two WRs vs. 2 CBs, 2 safeties and maybe a FIFTH DB is not "one-on-one," it's one-on-two+, because the CBs have deep safety help on BOTH sides of the field: That's Cover 2s whole POINT.

That's why Cover 2 translated the time-honored "run to establish the pass" into "run 'em out of Cover 2;" the more things change, the more they stay the same. In practice, it often ends up with Earl Thomas preventing deep completions while Kam Chancellor plays deep robber, which is how he picked Manning in the SB and again this season.


They were saying all SB week "we're not going to change our defense to stop what they are doing, they're going to have to change to stop us!" And that's how it went. They say "we're rushing 4 and Michael Bennett will get to Peyton before he can throw to Demaryius Thomas 20 yards down field."
It's certainly true Seattle can't do all the things just described unless their front four's good enough to get consistent pressure without need of blitzing; they need ALL those coverage LBs covering the underneath routes or safeties are forced to do that instead of helping out CBs deep. But we don't need pics of the Jets to see defenses dropping 7, 8 or even 9 guys into coverage against Denver: There are plenty of SB pics of Seattle doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Underneath zones aren't "stacking the box" though, and don't allow LBs to play short runs: Run 'em out of Cover 2. Teams can get away with that—especially if all their LBs are very fast—because we rarely run, and even when we do it's some kind of slow-developing misdirection or edge run that gives LBs in coverage plenty of time to diagnose and react to the play BEFORE it develops. They can get in position for a counter, draw, sweep, trap before our plodding linemen do.

Running more slams and dives at them would change that in a hurry. That's where most of our few big rushing gains have come this year, because our linemen, too slow and clumsy to consistently execute misdirection and (other) pulling-guard plays, are big and strong enough to overpower most defensive lines. Keep doing that until we move the chains 2-3 times in a row and we finally WILL get those stacked boxes as LBs are forced up to the line and out of underneath zones, and guys like Chancellor are forced up to the line and out of their deep robber spots.

Likewise, then we WILL have Pro Bowl WRs one-on-one with CBs deep, and only a lone safety to help, which Manning will shred, and if all those guys in the box try to sack him before he can he'll just see it pre-snap, make a hot read to one of those Pro Bowl receivers and burn them for a big gain ANYWAY. "Run to establish the pass," "run 'em out of Cover 2;" whatever we call it, it works as well as ever, for the same reason it always has: Because LBs and safeties can't all simultaneously cover the short AND deep stuff; they either all commit to one or the other, or divide their forces.


Every team in the NFL saw that and has tried to emulate it. That's one reason the bubble screens haven't worked well this season.
That just proves teams AREN'T stacking the box to stop the pass (which, frankly, is suicidally contradictory against any decent offense: Stacking the box PRECLUDES double-covering every receiver, which is why offenses want to run well enough to MAKE opponents stack the box and incidentally open up the passing game.) IF they were stacking the box, our bubble screens would still rip them apart by design, by putting blockers and ball carriers behind and in front of 8 defenders who are running the other way. Teams aren't doing that, so the screens can't work as designed.


The only way to stop this is to burn teams deep so they have to bring their safeties back deep to double Demaryius and Sanders on the outside and get extra help to cover Julius Thomas.
Again: What do you think Seattles beloved Cover 2 and Cover 3 (and I'd bet they're in one or the other 60-70% of the time) does? Chancellor didn't teleport from the LoS to intercept Manning while Thomas gave Welker a head shot, no more than he teleported 20-30 yds downfield for his SB pick: He was ALREADY THERE, because Seattle drops a STUPID amount of DBs and LBs in coverage, especially against us. And HOWEVER well we pass, that means we should be running straight ahead against the resulting 5, 4 and even THREE man fronts until we MAKE their LBs and SS close in, opening the deep routes.


TAnd the only way to get extra time with an immobile QB is to get an extra OL blocker in there and give Peyton the time to throw over the top of the defense.
IF Seattle (and everyone since) WERE stacking the box, we'd already be doing that; the SOLE reason "the box" entered the football lexicon is because it yields a very simple decision process:

8-man box? Defenders outnumber blockers at the line, but receivers outnumber defenders deep: Throw over their heads.
<8-man box? Blockers outnumber defenders at the line, but defenders outnumber receivers deep: Run it down their throats.

This is not rocket science, but unless our interior linemen get MUCH better at pulling (and Ball or whomever gets much better at spotting holes and cutback lanes,) fast LBs will have time to see the handoff, leave their shallow zones and come up to make the play on misdirections and end runs. Smashmouth runs between the tackles (especially with our huge powerful linemen) will put an end to that in a hurry; they'll never go INTO any zone in the first place, but instead stack the box from the start, at which point Manning will murder the one-on-one coverage he FINALLY has.

[Joel]

Seattle blew that theory to smoking rubble. Not (just) according to me: According to Adam Gase and PFM.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah Joel quoting PFF, the same people who will tell you how good Franklin really is? Strange how their opinion only matters when it supports his dumbassery. And I told you why the Broncos running game has struggled, an opinion a lot around here hold true, backed up by a longtime NFL scout, but you insist on wiping your ass with it.