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Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 12:27 PM
For a quarterback who hasn't been in Denver all that long, Peyton Manning sure has gone through his share of starting running backs.

Willis McGahee. Knowshon Moreno. Montee Ball. Ronnie Hillman.

Wait a minute. Ronnie Hillman?

"Ronnie has played at different times, in different amounts, but when you're the starting back and running out there in pregame warm-ups as a starting back, it's a different hat that you wear," said Manning, who is but a quarter of the way through his third season in Denver. "There's no question he has a burst that is pretty unique when he gets the ball in his hands. It's our job to give him space."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26691523/broncos-rb-ronnie-hillman-gets-chance-produce-first

Joel
10-09-2014, 12:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWX7ZobOt3o

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 12:59 PM
I don't think Hillman is nearly as bad as you are trying to make him sound to be.

Joel
10-09-2014, 01:05 PM
I'm not saying he's bad (I frankly think he's average, neither good NOR bad, but that's just MHO.) I'm saying our only alternatives are a sophomore UDFA who wasn't even active most games last year or a couple rookie UDFAs who've only been active one game BETWEEN them so far. In the land of the lame, the one-legged RB is king. I still have high hopes for Thompson because I think his hard-nosed style fits our lines run blocking abilities, but with Ball hurt Hillman was our only realistic option. Again, that doesn't make him good NOR bad: It makes him the default starter.

If nothing else, Hillman knows our complex offense far better than a couple rookies, a second year guy or anyone off waivers, and we need someone ready next Sunday, not next month.

tripp
10-09-2014, 02:42 PM
I don't think Hillman was ever drafted to be the #1 back. I was always under the impression he was supposed to be a Darren Sproles type back to compliment a guy like McGahee. I don't care who starts at the RB for us on Sunday because I think the difference between Hillman and Cj/Juwan is 5 or 6 Carries.

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 03:16 PM
I don't think Hillman was ever drafted to be the #1 back. I was always under the impression he was supposed to be a Darren Sproles type back to compliment a guy like McGahee. I don't care who starts at the RB for us on Sunday because I think the difference between Hillman and Cj/Juwan is 5 or 6 Carries.

I think so to. I don't think Hillman is built to be a "bell cow" type of guy. At the same time, he's shown the ability to run through tackles and around the end. I wouldn't want him to be a guy that I would rely on to carry the ball 30 times a game, but I like the speed he offers from that position.

BroncoWave
10-09-2014, 03:18 PM
I've been saying since the preseason that Hillman is much improved this year. He's done nothing so far to dissuade me of that notion.

Bronco9798
10-09-2014, 03:19 PM
I like the fact that Hillman has worked hard and not given up. He could of thrown the towel in a few times and went and sold cell phones. He has stuck with it, worked hard, and he's ready to give it a go. More times than not hard work pays off. And I also picked him up on the waiver wire in my fantasy football league. :-)

wayninja
10-09-2014, 03:24 PM
I've always liked Hillman. Honestly we probably wouldn't be in this situation if he didn't have some untimely fumbles. He would have already been above ball on the depth chart.

Joel
10-09-2014, 03:24 PM
I don't think Hillman was ever drafted to be the #1 back. I was always under the impression he was supposed to be a Darren Sproles type back to compliment a guy like McGahee. I don't care who starts at the RB for us on Sunday because I think the difference between Hillman and Cj/Juwan is 5 or 6 Carries.
The one thing I keep coming back to is people complaining Ball hesitates and dances too much, Hillman hesitates and dances too much, Moreno hesitates and dances too much... notice the theme? They ALL do that because our run blocking encourages it: It's called BRACING FOR IMPACT. Thompsons "I want THEM to fear MY hits" line, so reminiscent of Jim Browns old comment, fits that to a tee. To get an idea of the difference: Compare McGahee leading the NFL in yards after contact in 2011 or Moreno last year to Moreno THE REST OF HIS CAREER.

Our line doesn't have the quickness nor agility for ZBS stretches, counters, traps, draws etc. Clady does, and Vasquez, maybe Ramirez, but DEFINITELY NOT Franklin nor Clark: Those guys are straight forward power blockers, which is why they're both good against bull rushers and turnstiles against speed rushers. Expecting guys like that to pull (and the LG is the pulling guard on strong side runs) is expecting too much; if we want to consistently run well behind them, it'll have to be straight ahead between the tackles counting on the surge to get a couple and the back breaking tackles for a couple more.

Ball's supposed to be that guy, but we keep doing misdirection, stretch and stuff that takes a while to develop with lots of moving parts (i.e. blockers) even though our linemen don't move well enough to GIVE him that time, especially against fast alert defenses that pour through any hole the moment it opens. It's really ironic, because the classic rookie RB flaw is running up blocker backsides instead of waiting for blocking angles and lanes to form, but whether it's the blockers, vision or insecurity, our RBs have the OPPOSITE problem.

The sad thing is it's completely unnecessary: We don't need a couple 20-30 yd runs every half, just a LOT of 4-5 yd runs every game. Passing's for hitting home runs, and we're loaded with Pro Bowlers who do it better than anyone; we just need the run game to load the bases with lots of singles. There's no excuse for letting our RBs regularly get hit at the handoff when our linemen have the strength to deliver a yard or two of line surge every time so the RB need only manage a yard or two more on his own; three yards and a cloud of dust is fine as long we get those three yards EVERY TIME.

Northman
10-09-2014, 03:49 PM
The one thing I keep coming back to is people complaining Ball hesitates and dances too much, Hillman hesitates and dances too much, Moreno hesitates and dances too much... notice the theme?.

Yes, young RB's that we draft spend too much time dancing. After a while they begin to learn and be taught to run north and south. Its why Moreno no longer dances and why Thompson and Hillman had success this past Sunday. They arent DANCING anymore.

BroncoWave
10-09-2014, 03:52 PM
Yes, young RB's that we draft spend too much time dancing. After a while they begin to learn and be taught to run north and south. Its why Moreno no longer dances and why Thompson and Hillman had success this past Sunday. They arent DANCING anymore.

I don't think Thompson was ever a dancer in the first place. He was hitting the holes quickly from day 1.

Northman
10-09-2014, 03:56 PM
I don't think Thompson was ever a dancer in the first place. He was hitting the holes quickly from day 1.

Good point.

Joel
10-09-2014, 04:13 PM
Yes, young RB's that we draft spend too much time dancing. After a while they begin to learn and be taught to run north and south. Its why Moreno no longer dances and why Thompson and Hillman had success this past Sunday. They arent DANCING anymore.
Yeah: After a while they begin to learn doing what the coaches say and waiting for counters and traps to develop instead of getting impatient will get them KILLED (and benched) behind our blockers, so they stop waiting and get what they can. When every OTHER team drafts a top RB they always say the same thing: Great runner, hard worker, avid student; just needs more patience—not our guys! For 31 starting RBs, patience is a virtue; for Denvers, it's a hazard. FOUR of our last 5 starters were ALL exceptions to the rule? I find that hard to buy—especially when I watch our line as much as our RBs.


I don't think Thompson was ever a dancer in the first place. He was hitting the holes quickly from day 1.
Which is why I like him for our blockers and offensive needs, and hate all the gimmicky slow developing runs we call. I can't get his preseason quote out of my head....

BroncoNut
10-09-2014, 04:15 PM
I like the fact that Hillman has worked hard and not given up. He could of thrown the towel in a few times and went and sold cell phones. He has stuck with it, worked hard, and he's ready to give it a go. More times than not hard work pays off. And I also picked him up on the waiver wire in my fantasy football league. :-)

how did he not give up? just by sticking around?

Denver Native (Carol)
10-09-2014, 04:23 PM
When Montee Ball went down with a groin injury Sunday against the Cardinals, concern over the Broncos' run game seemed to increase 10-fold.

The team's young running back corps had struggled to produce in the first three games, and now their starter, who already missed time because of an appecdectomy during training camp, would miss several more weeks.

Things won't get any easier Sunday, when the Broncos take on the Jets at MetLife Stadium.

Despite their 1-4 record, the Jets own one of the league's toughest defenses, especially against the run. It ranks No. 6 in the league in rushing defenses, allowing an average of 83 yards per game. The Broncos' rushing offense, meanwhile, ranks No. 29, putting up only 79.5 yards per game.

Unlike everyone else, Adam Gase isn't worried.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26696679/adam-gase-confident-broncos-rbs-against-jets-chaotic

Joel
10-09-2014, 04:44 PM
rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26696679/adam-gase-confident-broncos-rbs-against-jets-chaotic


"I don't think Ronnie gets enough credit for the fact that he'll go up there and meet a guy and he doesn't get rocked back," Gase said. "For his size, a lot of guys think they're just going to run over him. But, for whatever reason, he's got that power to be able to sustain his blocks."
Um... the Ronnie Hillman who plays for DENVER? Or is this another one of those deals where people yell at our nickel LB because he's tweeting when he's supposed to be catching Cutlers passes? :tongue:

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 04:55 PM
Um... the Ronnie Hillman who plays for DENVER? Or is this another one of those deals where people yell at our nickel LB because he's tweeting when he's supposed to be catching Cutlers passes? :tongue:

wut?

Joel
10-09-2014, 05:13 PM
wut?
Gase said Hillman doesn't get "enough credit for the fact that he'll go up there and meet a guy and he doesn't get rocked back...." It made me wonder if he was thinking of some other Ronnie Hillman, like there's the Brandon Marshall that plays for us now (and was tweeting during a recent Bears game) and the OTHER Brandon Marshall that USED to play for us but plays for Chicago now (and got e-shredded by fans who thought the first one was him tweeting when he should've been focussed on his game in progress.)

'Cause, y'know, OUR Ronnie Hillman gets rocked back a LOT, often by the first hit. Gase seemed to be talking about blocking, but still, it struck me as an unexpected comment.

BroncoWave
10-09-2014, 05:14 PM
Yeah Joel, I'm sure you'd know better than our offensive coordinator how Hillman runs.

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 05:17 PM
Gase said Hillman doesn't get "enough credit for the fact that he'll go up there and meet a guy and he doesn't get rocked back...." It made me wonder if he was thinking of some other Ronnie Hillman, like there's the Brandon Marshall that plays for us now (and was tweeting during a recent Bears game) and the OTHER Brandon Marshall that USED to play for us but plays for Chicago now (and got e-shredded by fans who thought the first one was him tweeting when he should've been focussed on his game in progress.)

'Cause, y'know, OUR Ronnie Hillman gets rocked back a LOT, often by the first hit. Gase seemed to be talking about blocking, but still, it struck me as an unexpected comment.

Its unexpected because.... you don't think its true? Ronnie is a good blocker, and steps up and takes care of his guy. EVEN the best of the best at LT get "knocked back" from time to time, but Hillman is stout for his size and height. I believe he doesn't get knocked backwards very often.

Joel
10-09-2014, 05:44 PM
Yeah Joel, I'm sure you'd know better than our offensive coordinator how Hillman runs.
I'm hardly the only person to comment on the many times Hillman's gone down at first contact; this may be the first time I've EVER mentioned it—but it's sure discussed a lot here. ;) If we're playing the "you don't know better than Gase" game, well, he's been going on about our run game being "terrible" (his word) since the season started, and putting a lot of that on the blocking; does Gase finally acknowledging publicly what I've been carping about for several years vindicate me, or are we BOTH idiots? ;)


Its unexpected because.... you don't think its true? Ronnie is a good blocker, and steps up and takes care of his guy. EVEN the best of the best at LT get "knocked back" from time to time, but Hillman is stout for his size and height. I believe he doesn't get knocked backwards very often.
It's unexpected because if I had a nickel for every time I saw someone on here complain about Hillman going down if anyone so much as breathes on him I'd submit an offer to buy the team from Bowlen.

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 05:49 PM
It's unexpected because if I had a nickel for every time I saw someone on here complain about Hillman going down if anyone so much as breathes on him I'd submit an offer to buy the team from Bowlen.

Wait... hold the phone. You mean people, on this message board, exaggerate as to how poor a player really is? Noooo wayyyyy!

chazoe60
10-09-2014, 05:51 PM
If you changed the "u" in the thread title to an "a" this would be aberdien's favorite thread.

Ravage!!!
10-09-2014, 05:53 PM
If you changed the "u" in the thread title to an "a" this would be aberdien's favorite thread.

:laugh: :laugh:

Dapper Dan
10-09-2014, 05:58 PM
I thought there were more Hillman haters than this.

Joel
10-09-2014, 06:00 PM
I thought there were more Hillman haters than this.
No kidding. It's amazing what being the only port in a storm can do for a guys popularity. ;)

BroncoWave
10-09-2014, 06:01 PM
I thought there were more Hillman haters than this.

Our fans tend to be a little late to the party when it comes to recognizing RB talent. Same thing happened with Moreno.

Bronco9798
10-09-2014, 06:02 PM
I like Hillman. I hope he gets a fair shot at this thing. Would love to see him use his quickness and us actually have a decent running game.

Dapper Dan
10-09-2014, 06:02 PM
No kidding. It's amazing what being the only port in a storm can do for a guys popularity. ;)

I've always liked him. I think most haters are keeping quiet because they don't want to take your side.

Bronco9798
10-09-2014, 06:03 PM
Our fans tend to be a little late to the party when it comes to recognizing RB talent. Same thing happened with Moreno.

I agree, if it wasn't broke, Broncos should have left it alone. I was hoping Moreno would stick around. I'm in the minority but I loved him last year. I thought he fit well playing with Peyton.

BroncoWave
10-09-2014, 06:07 PM
I agree, if it wasn't broke, Broncos should have left it alone. I was hoping Moreno would stick around. I'm in the minority but I loved him last year. I thought he fit well playing with Peyton.

Yeah, Elway has made very few mistakes as a GM, but getting rid of Moreno was one IMO. He could have been kept for super cheap and he's just flat out better than anyone else we have.

Bronco9798
10-09-2014, 06:16 PM
Yeah, Elway has made very few mistakes as a GM, but getting rid of Moreno was one IMO. He could have been kept for super cheap and he's just flat out better than anyone else we have.

Totally agree.

NightTerror218
10-10-2014, 12:46 AM
Hillman was on everyone's bad side for his ball security. If he can hang onto the ball that would be great. I think he was drafted to be he Jamaal Charles type of back. He has comparable size but that size is usually a change of pace back. Hillman has ho.e in speed. If he can break through then he can get so.e big gains. But he must hold onto the ball.

Dapper Dan
10-10-2014, 12:59 AM
Hillman was on everyone's bad side for his ball security. If he can hang onto the ball that would be great. I think he was drafted to be he Jamaal Charles type of back. He has comparable size but that size is usually a change of pace back. Hillman has ho.e in speed. If he can break through then he can get so.e big gains. But he must hold onto the ball.

I totally agree. If a player can hang on to the ball, then he has less of an issue with ball security.

Joel
10-10-2014, 08:05 AM
I've always liked him.
I mildly disliked him because he couldn't get >1 first down to close out the playoff game vs. Baltimore, but still put most of that on the line, and didn't have strong feelings about Hillman before last years fumbles. If he's over that, I think he'll be as good as any other average RB behind our line, however good, bad or indifferent it makes that.


I think most haters are keeping quiet because they don't want to take your side.
Me, too, but it looks bad if I say it. :tongue:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 10:22 AM
Hillman was on everyone's bad side for his ball security. If he can hang onto the ball that would be great. I think he was drafted to be he Jamaal Charles type of back. He has comparable size but that size is usually a change of pace back. Hillman has ho.e in speed. If he can break through then he can get so.e big gains. But he must hold onto the ball.

I'm not sure about that. Hillman is about 185. Charles is about 15 pounds heavier.

IMO, they have similar home run ability, but Charles is more likely to break a tackle. MY two nocks on Hillman have been ball security, and the apparent lack of being able to break a tackle. That doesn't mean I don't like the kid, I just don't see him as an every down back.

tomjonesrocks
10-10-2014, 11:31 AM
This is a lot of thread copy on a guy that's going to average about 60 yards a game. Before he fumbles and gets benched.

Hopefully we employ a "hot hand" strategy and Thompson takes the job while Montee is out.

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 11:43 AM
The biggest problem with Moreno is that he was/is slow. He's not powerful enough to be a power back, yet doesn't have the speed to ever break long ones (let me edit, because someone will point out his one long run.... RARELY). So he's not power, and not speed. Ball, isn't speed, and is lacking vision right now.

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 11:45 AM
This is a lot of thread copy on a guy that's going to average about 60 yards a game. Before he fumbles and gets benched.

Hopefully we employ a "hot hand" strategy and Thompson takes the job while Montee is out.

The NFL is about guys getting 60 yrds a game and another gettering 30-40 yrds a game. As we've mentioned, Hillman never really was intended to be a bell cow 30 carry a game, RB. Thus, if he's getting 60 yrds a game rushing...then he's fullfilling his job perfectly!

dogfish
10-10-2014, 12:00 PM
Thus, if he's getting 60 yrds a game rushing...then he's fullfilling his job perfectly!

only if he gets those yards on 13-14 carries. . . if it takes him 18 or more to get there, he's not doing his job effectively at all. . . we'll see. . . i suspect that thompson and anderson are better players, but i'd be happy to be proven wrong. . .

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 12:37 PM
I think what confuses me most about this whole thing is, why was Anderson inactive last week and Thompson active? I'd be curious to see which one of them gets the relief touches. I mean, you certainly can't say that Thompson did nothing with his playtime. He played well enough to garner another look. Should be interesting regardless.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-10-2014, 12:55 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- When Sunday's game with the New York Jets arrives, expect the solution for replacing the injured Montee Ball to incorporate Ronnie Hillman, C.J. Anderson and rookie Juwan Thompson -- assuming Thompson is available after missing Wednesday's practice and being limited Thursday with a knee problem.

"We'll lean on all three of them," Head Coach John Fox said.

Prior to succumbing the third quarter last Sunday, Ball had 55 of the Broncos' 69 carries by running backs. After he left, Hillman had 14 rushes and Thompson three, with Anderson watching from the sideline as one of the Broncos' seven inactive players.

All three are expected to be in uniform Sunday, if Thompson is healthy. That would be enough for Offensive Coordinator Adam Gase, who thinks the answers to the questions at the position reside in a trio that knows nothing else as pros but orange and blue.

rest, plus Gase video - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Replacing-Montee-Ball-will-be-a-group-effort/8350dc3b-7578-4bbe-a614-fc33ef8a5d4f

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 12:58 PM
I think what confuses me most about this whole thing is, why was Anderson inactive last week and Thompson active? I'd be curious to see which one of them gets the relief touches. I mean, you certainly can't say that Thompson did nothing with his playtime. He played well enough to garner another look. Should be interesting regardless.

Sometimes it just comes down to who's the best compliment to what you have in the lineup. Like in Cleveland right now. When Tate is injured, West is their best starter. But when Tate is healthy, the other kid is the better compliment to Tate. Plus, there are injuries involved that plays a part in those choices.

EastCoastBronco
10-10-2014, 01:09 PM
I like the fact that Hillman has worked hard and not given up. He could of thrown the towel in a few times and went and sold cell phones. He has stuck with it, worked hard, and he's ready to give it a go. More times than not hard work pays off. And I also picked him up on the waiver wire in my fantasy football league. :-)

I made the same move in my fantasy league.
Traded Darren Sproles for him.
I think they are both stuck in the same kind of Pass Heavy offence...

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 01:09 PM
Sometimes it just comes down to who's the best compliment to what you have in the lineup. Like in Cleveland right now. When Tate is injured, West is their best starter. But when Tate is healthy, the other kid is the better compliment to Tate. Plus, there are injuries involved that plays a part in those choices.

Well, obviously, but that's the active/inactive choices were made when ball was not injured. What I'm saying is, I'm curious as to who will get the call now for RB2 carries now that all 3 of them will be active. In the past, one of the three was always inactive, but now that that is no longer an option, it will be a fun development to watch.

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 01:10 PM
only if he gets those yards on 13-14 carries. . . if it takes him 18 or more to get there, he's not doing his job effectively at all. . . we'll see. . . i suspect that thompson and anderson are better players, but i'd be happy to be proven wrong. . .

Well yeah. Ball getting 60 yrds on 18 carries isn't getting it done. I'm not considering Hillman to be the bell cow runner that we feed the ball to 20-30 times. I'm expecting splits between he and another. So point being, if his splits gets 60 yrds, then he's doing what we want him to do.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 01:36 PM
The biggest problem with Moreno is that he was/is slow. He's not powerful enough to be a power back, yet doesn't have the speed to ever break long ones (let me edit, because someone will point out his one long run.... RARELY). So he's not power, and not speed. Ball, isn't speed, and is lacking vision right now.

Look at Moreno's all around numbers last year. They work well with Peyton. It's a passing game in the NFL and Moreno was productive at catching balls and working the ball down field. His running numbers were fine for what we were trying to accomplish. Again, I'm in the minority on Moreno. But it worked.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 01:47 PM
Look at Moreno's all around numbers last year. They work well with Peyton. It's a passing game in the NFL and Moreno was productive at catching balls and working the ball down field. His running numbers were fine for what we were trying to accomplish. Again, I'm in the minority on Moreno. But it worked.

I agree, Moreno was a great fit for this system. I think the coaches see someone who is very similar to Moreno in Ball, and I agree. Blaming the running game on Ball is a little silly, IMO. The fact is on more than half of our running plays there is at least one defender getting in the backfield, and frequently it's several. Our running scheme is just bad, period. Everyone and their dog knows when Ball is in the backfield and we are in a 2 TE set, it's a run play. Teams have been blowing it up all year, and until we start running some of our offense from under center our running game will continue to stink.

Part of me wonders if the plan has been to win games in the first 2\3 of the season with 60% of the playbook. What I mean by that is it may be possible they don't want to start running plays from under center until the last part of the season because teams won't be game planning for it.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 01:53 PM
I think this whole thing just boils down to everyone wanting TD. Ball isn't TD, Hillman isn't TD. We just keep looking for that late round/udfa guy who's a workhorse with good vision. You know... our alfred morris. JUWAN HYPE TRAIN!

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 01:54 PM
I agree, Moreno was a great fit for this system. I think the coaches see someone who is very similar to Moreno in Ball, and I agree. Blaming the running game on Ball is a little silly, IMO. The fact is on more than half of our running plays there is at least one defender getting in the backfield, and frequently it's several. Our running scheme is just bad, period. Everyone and their dog knows when Ball is in the backfield and we are in a 2 TE set, it's a run play. Teams have been blowing it up all year, and until we start running some of our offense from under center our running game will continue to stink.

Part of me wonders if the plan has been to win games in the first 2\3 of the season with 60% of the playbook. What I mean by that is it may be possible they don't want to start running plays from under center until the last part of the season because teams won't be game planning for it.

I'm not a Ball fan. I want him to succeed, absolutely. No explosion, no burst, no vision, that's what I see. I see a slow plodder. I just don't have good feel for him at this point.

tripp
10-10-2014, 01:56 PM
I think this whole thing just boils down to everyone wanting TD. Ball isn't TD, Hillman isn't TD. We just keep looking for that late round/udfa guy who's a workhorse with good vision. You know... our alfred morris. JUWAN HYPE TRAIN!

I've been on the Juwan Thompson bandwagon since he trucked that San Fran linebacker in pre-season for a first down. Always been a fan of big RB's who lower their shoulders into guys.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 01:56 PM
I've been on the Juwan Thompson bandwagon since he trucked that San Fran linebacker in pre-season for a first down. Always been a fan of big RB's who lower their shoulders into guys.

You don't hop on during the Seattle pre-season game? ******* plebs.

tripp
10-10-2014, 01:58 PM
I'm not a Ball fan. I want him to succeed, absolutely. No explosion, no burst, no vision, that's what I see. I see a slow plodder. I just don't have good feel for him at this point.

He looked like a good compliment running back to Moreno. I particularly remember the KC game in Denver last year, he played really well.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 02:02 PM
He looked like a good compliment running back to Moreno. I particularly remember the KC game in Denver last year, he played really well.

Ball had some good moments last year, I agree.

tripp
10-10-2014, 02:12 PM
Ball had some good moments last year, I agree.

I don't recall a game so far this year where he has looked good. I know our O-line is to blame as well, but nothing screams elite running back.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 02:14 PM
I posted this in another thread, but why not post the same things again.


Last year, when knowshon kicked ass. Montee, ran better. He had a 5ypc average last year. Better than knowshon.
The ONLY thing that has changed on offense was losing moreno, but Montee ran better anyway, and Moving Franklin w Beadles.

I Refuse to believe that Montee suddenly somehow forgot how to run between last year and this year. (did you know last year only 2? other backs had more yards per touch then montee for the last like 5ish weeks of the season.)


This year:
- The AVERAGE Oline blocking is 2.53 yards down field before the RB is first touched! Average!!!
- When Montee Ball is not touched before reaching the Line Of Scrimmage he AVERAGES 6 Yards per carry.
- Nearly 40% of all of our runs the RB is HIT BEHIND THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE!!!
-Montee Averaged 5 yards per carry against the chiefs earlier this year.

So everything from last year is the same on offense when montee averaged 5 ypc but suddenly this year our rbs are hit 40% of the time in the backfield and it is the RBs? How does this make sense?



Cardinals Game:
- The cards had 13 CONSECUTIVE drives of 4 plays or less!!!!!!!!! If you do not think their defense was gassed you are an idiot. THIRTEEN!! (which btw was an NFL record!- yeehaw defense)
- Colais Campbell who was reaking Havoc in the run game went out with injury.
- Apparantely so did some other defensive starter but I dont know who, nor remember.
-On those runs (after montee was out) the RBs were still hit nearly 30% of the time behind the LOS! 10% less but still god awful!
- We ran out of different formations then our always run 2 TE set.



Now tell me, what does the evidence support? Hillman is good and montee sucks? The Oline and TE blocking are the problem and not the RBs? They all suck (sadly this is looking more evident) Ball simply forgot how to run from last year. His appendectomy was actually a lobotomy.



Im pulling for any run game since ours is so bad but putting your faith in hillman is the wrong place I bet. I do however think the run game is about 2 more weeks away from finally having it down.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 02:37 PM
I posted this in another thread, but why not post the same things again.


Last year, when knowshon kicked ass. Montee, ran better. He had a 5ypc average last year. Better than knowshon.
The ONLY thing that has changed on offense was losing moreno, but Montee ran better anyway, and Moving Franklin w Beadles.

I Refuse to believe that Montee suddenly somehow forgot how to run between last year and this year. (did you know last year only 2? other backs had more yards per touch then montee for the last like 5ish weeks of the season.)


This year:
- The AVERAGE Oline blocking is 2.53 yards down field before the RB is first touched! Average!!!
- When Montee Ball is not touched before reaching the Line Of Scrimmage he AVERAGES 6 Yards per carry.
- Nearly 40% of all of our runs the RB is HIT BEHIND THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE!!!
-Montee Averaged 5 yards per carry against the chiefs earlier this year.

So everything from last year is the same on offense when montee averaged 5 ypc but suddenly this year our rbs are hit 40% of the time in the backfield and it is the RBs? How does this make sense?



Cardinals Game:
- The cards had 13 CONSECUTIVE drives of 4 plays or less!!!!!!!!! If you do not think their defense was gassed you are an idiot. THIRTEEN!! (which btw was an NFL record!- yeehaw defense)
- Colais Campbell who was reaking Havoc in the run game went out with injury.
- Apparantely so did some other defensive starter but I dont know who, nor remember.
-On those runs (after montee was out) the RBs were still hit nearly 30% of the time behind the LOS! 10% less but still god awful!
- We ran out of different formations then our always run 2 TE set.



Now tell me, what does the evidence support? Hillman is good and montee sucks? The Oline and TE blocking are the problem and not the RBs? They all suck (sadly this is looking more evident) Ball simply forgot how to run from last year. His appendectomy was actually a lobotomy.



Im pulling for any run game since ours is so bad but putting your faith in hillman is the wrong place I bet. I do however think the run game is about 2 more weeks away from finally having it down.

I said something similar about 5 posts back.

Joel
10-10-2014, 03:13 PM
I said something similar about 5 posts back.
If we're keeping track, I said something similar on page one, and have BEEN saying since about 7 YEARS back.

The sad thing (as noted on page one) is there's ZERO excuse for it now. The days when guys like Beadles and Walton could justify their presence by a ZBS that traded strength for agility are gone; we have the inside power to deliver that 2 yds of line surge u29 noted is the NFL AVERAGE—but neither Franklin nor Clark have the agility for all the misdirection and pulling we inexplicably insist on running. I hope we wake up and smell the coffee on that one, but Ball, Anderson and Thompson are all FAR better suited to power running than a scatback like Hillman is.

Yet he knows the offense better than a pair of rookies, a sophomore or a couple guys fresh off other teams' waiver wires, so he'll understandably be asked to carry the load until/unless one of the others emerges and/or Ball's healthy again. Too bad his first start will be against a top run D, because all u29 made valid points on how depleted (in every sense) Arizonas D was by the time Hillman entered.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 03:19 PM
I don't recall a game so far this year where he has looked good. I know our O-line is to blame as well, but nothing screams elite running back.

No, he stinks this year.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 03:19 PM
If we're keeping track, I said something similar on page one, and have BEEN saying since about 7 YEARS back.

The sad thing (as noted on page one) is there's ZERO excuse for it now. The days when guys like Beadles and Walton could justify their presence by a ZBS that traded strength for agility are gone; we have the inside power to deliver that 2 yds of line surge u29 noted is the NFL AVERAGE—but neither Franklin nor Clark have the agility for all the misdirection and pulling we inexplicably insist on running. I hope we wake up and smell the coffee on that one, but Ball, Anderson and Thompson are all FAR better suited to power running than a scatback like Hillman is.

Yet he knows the offense better than a pair of rookies, a sophomore or a couple guys fresh off other teams' waiver wires, so he'll understandably be asked to carry the load until/unless one of the others emerges and/or Ball's healthy again. Too bad his first start will be against a top run D, because all u29 made valid points on how depleted (in every sense) Arizonas D was by the time Hillman entered.

If the Jets run D has shown any weakness at all this season, it has been against little scat backs like Hillman. I'm actually a little afraid that Hillman will play exceedingly well for one game and will leech carries from the other guys for the rest of Ball's absence. I'd rather just have the other guys get their chance to shine. We all know what Hillman is and what he's done. Good game or bad game this week doesn't change it.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 03:20 PM
If the Jets run D has shown any weakness at all this season, it has been against little scat backs like Hillman. I'm actually a little afraid that Hillman will play exceedingly well for one game and will leech carries from the other guys for the rest of Ball's absence. I'd rather just have the other guys get their chance to shine. We all know what Hillman is and what he's done. Good game or bad game this week doesn't change it.

We knew what Hillman was. Let's give him a chance and see what he does with his opportunity.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 03:22 PM
We knew what Hillman was. Let's give him a chance and see what he does with his opportunity.

Meh. :D Like I said, I'm afraid he's going to play well this week (because the Jets D has shown issues stopping little shifty dudes) and then stink it up for the next couple weeks until Montee gets back. I'm not against him playing well, I just want to get this JUWAN ******* THOMPSON HYPE TRAIN GOING

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 03:23 PM
If we're keeping track, I said something similar on page one, and have BEEN saying since about 7 YEARS back.

The sad thing (as noted on page one) is there's ZERO excuse for it now. The days when guys like Beadles and Walton could justify their presence by a ZBS that traded strength for agility are gone; we have the inside power to deliver that 2 yds of line surge u29 noted is the NFL AVERAGE—but neither Franklin nor Clark have the agility for all the misdirection and pulling we inexplicably insist on running. I hope we wake up and smell the coffee on that one, but Ball, Anderson and Thompson are all FAR better suited to power running than a scatback like Hillman is.

Yet he knows the offense better than a pair of rookies, a sophomore or a couple guys fresh off other teams' waiver wires, so he'll understandably be asked to carry the load until/unless one of the others emerges and/or Ball's healthy again. Too bad his first start will be against a top run D, because all u29 made valid points on how depleted (in every sense) Arizonas D was by the time Hillman entered.


I think the issue of everyone knowing we're running out of 2 TE sets, combined with the telegraphed hand off from Manning in the shotgun has a lot more to do with it than whether or not we're pulling. It's just too freaking obvious what's coming.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 03:23 PM
Meh. :D Like I said, I'm afraid he's going to play well this week (because the Jets D has shown issues stopping little shifty dudes) and then stink it up for the next couple weeks until Montee gets back. I'm not against him playing well, I just want to get this JUWAN ******* THOMPSON HYPE TRAIN GOING

So you're afraid a Bronco is going to play well? Wow.....Really.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 03:27 PM
So you're afraid a Bronco is going to play well? Wow.....Really.

A bit of a generalization there, niner. I'm afraid that he's going to play well for one game (specifically because of the jets run D) and as such, take away an opportunity from some UDFA kids that have shown promise. As far as I'm concerned, Hillman is a known quantity. I want to see what CJ and Juwan can do in the pros.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 03:32 PM
A bit of a generalization there, niner. I'm afraid that he's going to play well for one game (specifically because of the jets run D) and as such, take away an opportunity from some UDFA kids that have shown promise. As far as I'm concerned, Hillman is a known quantity. I want to see what CJ and Juwan can do in the pros.

If he plays well and build on it then he should get the bulk, not the other guys. If he has a good game, he should continue the workload until he fails.

Joel
10-10-2014, 03:32 PM
That's their job, and passings SOLE job. I want a RB who sets up RBIs for those sluggers by getting a base hit EVERY at bat, and maybe an RBI or two of his own on the rare but inevitable occasions our sluggers strike out. Sluggers strike out far less if not FORCED to swing for the fences EVERY time.

I'd rather our RB post a 100 yd game on 25 carries with none >10 yds than make ONE 50 yd TD run and 24 more for <3 yds each. A few years ago, Mike Bell unleashed THREE 50 yd runs against Indys awful run D, but the last gassed him so the third string guy (forget whom) came in, failed to convert 2nd and 1 OR 3rd and 1, and we kicked a FG to regain a narrow lead but leave PFM 1:30 to end us, which he promptly did. There's no walkoff score if there's time left, and one play "drives" don't kill the clock; that takes slow-but-steady 3-4 yd power turtles.

Hillman's never been described nor looked like that, but that's exactly what Ball, Anderson and ESPECIALLY Thompson are. Hillman fits our current playcalling better, but the others fit our lines ABILITES better.

Zweems56
10-10-2014, 03:34 PM
If he plays well and build on it then he should get the bulk, not the other guys. If he has a good game, he should continue the workload until he fails.

But I want to see Juwaaaaaaaaaan :throwrock:

Joel
10-10-2014, 03:45 PM
If the Jets run D has shown any weakness at all this season, it has been against little scat backs like Hillman. I'm actually a little afraid that Hillman will play exceedingly well for one game and will leech carries from the other guys for the rest of Ball's absence. I'd rather just have the other guys get their chance to shine. We all know what Hillman is and what he's done. Good game or bad game this week doesn't change it.
Scatbacks are non-starters almost by definition, because their style wears down THEM instead of opponents. But there are experience and knowledge rookies, second year guys and newly arrived FAs lack. So Hillman's the starter—for now; I have strong doubts he can maintain his grip on that job for the 3-4 games (minimum) Ball's expected to miss.


I think the issue of everyone knowing we're running out of 2 TE sets, combined with the telegraphed hand off from Manning in the shotgun has a lot more to do with it than whether or not we're pulling. It's just too freaking obvious what's coming.
Shotgun's not why half the front seven's in our backfield AT the handoff more often than not: That's SOLELY on the blocking, whether it's the playcalls themselves or just not executing them. If we're under center for EVERY run—and ONLY runs—won't that telegraph runs AND passes just as much? We might run better from under center, but would have to pass from there just as much to maintain any mystery.

The shotgun run's actually VERY deceptive with some plays from under center—but only if the RB grabs it and goes instead of waiting so long for plays to develop that the D figures it out and corrects. "Shotgun misdirection run" is almost a contradiction in terms, whether it's a trap, counter or draw: It can't fool anyone if they can watch from a distance for several seconds before committing.

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 03:51 PM
If the Jets run D has shown any weakness at all this season, it has been against little scat backs like Hillman. I'm actually a little afraid that Hillman will play exceedingly well for one game and will leech carries from the other guys for the rest of Ball's absence. I'd rather just have the other guys get their chance to shine. We all know what Hillman is and what he's done. Good game or bad game this week doesn't change it.

I think this is a pretty short sighted perspective. Hillman was what... 19 when coming into the NFL? Youngest player in the league, and just now hitting a whopping 23?

I've said it all off season.. I think Hillman is better than people give him credit for. I want him to do well, and then I want him to continue to do well. He absolutely has a role on this team, and its just growing.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 04:37 PM
Scatbacks are non-starters almost by definition, because their style wears down THEM instead of opponents. But there are experience and knowledge rookies, second year guys and newly arrived FAs lack. So Hillman's the starter—for now; I have strong doubts he can maintain his grip on that job for the 3-4 games (minimum) Ball's expected to miss.


Shotgun's not why half the front seven's in our backfield AT the handoff more often than not: That's SOLELY on the blocking, whether it's the playcalls themselves or just not executing them. If we're under center for EVERY run—and ONLY runs—won't that telegraph runs AND passes just as much? We might run better from under center, but would have to pass from there just as much to maintain any mystery.

The shotgun run's actually VERY deceptive with some plays from under center—but only if the RB grabs it and goes instead of waiting so long for plays to develop that the D figures it out and corrects. "Shotgun misdirection run" is almost a contradiction in terms, whether it's a trap, counter or draw: It can't fool anyone if they can watch from a distance for several seconds before committing.

If half the people at home know a run play is coming, it's not all on the ability of the 5 offensive linemen.

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 05:01 PM
A bit of a generalization there, niner. I'm afraid that he's going to play well for one game (specifically because of the jets run D) and as such, take away an opportunity from some UDFA kids that have shown promise. As far as I'm concerned, Hillman is a known quantity. I want to see what CJ and Juwan can do in the pros.

So NFL players, especially ones as young as Hillman, can't improve? Seriously? Did we not just go thorough this whole song and dance with Moreno? Has everyone already forgotten?

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 05:03 PM
I think this is a pretty short sighted perspective. Hillman was what... 19 when coming into the NFL? Youngest player in the league, and just now hitting a whopping 23?

I've said it all off season.. I think Hillman is better than people give him credit for. I want him to do well, and then I want him to continue to do well. He absolutely has a role on this team, and its just growing.

Agreed. I don't get the Hillman hate-train. He looked really solid in the preseason and has continued to do so so far in the regular season. I feel like people on here make their minds up on players after one year and that's that. No way they can ever improve. God forbid a Broncos RB ever fumbles a couple of times, or he is dead to fans forever.

Joel
10-10-2014, 05:20 PM
If half the people at home know a run play is coming, it's not all on the ability of the 5 offensive linemen.
That the play fails? No. That MULTIPLE defenders are in the backfield BEFORE the handoff? Definitely. The D may know what's coming, but who let them all through right from the snap...?

It's not like we NEVER pass out of a 2TE shotgun set; the whole point of running one set a lot is that we use it for so many plays it's NOT obvious which one's coming. We're just not executing it.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 05:25 PM
I said something similar about 5 posts back.



My bad, i didnt read through the entire thread. I just clicked reply on page 1.



No, he stinks this year.

5 ypc against the chiefs. Not that bad.



I think the issue of everyone knowing we're running out of 2 TE sets, combined with the telegraphed hand off from Manning in the shotgun has a lot more to do with it than whether or not we're pulling. It's just too freaking obvious what's coming.

Boom! This is definitely a major gripe ive had. It feels like Mike Mccoy all over again sometimes. To which I will debate anyone at anytime that he was by far the worst play caller and OC we have ever had. ( A whole other topic I know)

underrated29
10-10-2014, 05:31 PM
That's their job, and passings SOLE job. I want a RB who sets up RBIs for those sluggers by getting a base hit EVERY at bat, and maybe an RBI or two of his own on the rare but inevitable occasions our sluggers strike out. Sluggers strike out far less if not FORCED to swing for the fences EVERY time.

I'd rather our RB post a 100 yd game on 25 carries with none >10 yds than make ONE 50 yd TD run and 24 more for <3 yds each. A few years ago, Mike Bell unleashed THREE 50 yd runs against Indys awful run D, but the last gassed him so the third string guy (forget whom) came in, failed to convert 2nd and 1 OR 3rd and 1, and we kicked a FG to regain a narrow lead but leave PFM 1:30 to end us, which he promptly did. There's no walkoff score if there's time left, and one play "drives" don't kill the clock; that takes slow-but-steady 3-4 yd power turtles.

Hillman's never been described nor looked like that, but that's exactly what Ball, Anderson and ESPECIALLY Thompson are. Hillman fits our current playcalling better, but the others fit our lines ABILITES better.





Couldnt agree more about the bolded part. I think Ball, CJ and Juwann are all those types of backs.


I still despite what the few on here think about hillman do not think he is all that fast or speedy. He is rather agile though. Not my type of RB. Ill still hope he does well but I bet anything CJ out plays him and probably overtakes him in the 2nd half.


Wave- its not the fact that hillman fumbles- all backs fumble. Although he does do it more than others it seems. The part that really sucks and sticks in peoples minds is he fumbles on the gat damn goalline! I swear all of his fumbles have come inside the opponents 5 yard line. Nearly every time we have lost the ball or in the case of seattle been returned 99 yards for a td. He costs us given points with his fumbles.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 05:34 PM
That the play fails? No. That MULTIPLE defenders are in the backfield BEFORE the handoff? Definitely. The D may know what's coming, but who let them all through right from the snap...?

It's not like we NEVER pass out of a 2TE shotgun set; the whole point of running one set a lot is that we use it for so many plays it's NOT obvious which one's coming. We're just not executing it.



Its probably a 70-30 or 80-20 thing Joel. IMO.

I mean, obviously, when we line 2 TE set we run 100% of the time. We all know we are running on first down and out of the pistol. It is obvious so the LB can play closer, the Saftey can drop low in the box. It is a factor. I would still say mostly it is on the Oline and TE for not holding or pushing their damn blocks. We have some meat up front. Those guys should be able to plow anything in front of them for 1 yard! let alont the league average 2.53.

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 05:34 PM
I think where on the field you fumble is completely random and he's just had the bad luck of fumbling near the goal line. That's completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what he did in past years, all I know is that he looks way better this year than before and he didn't fumble at all in the preseason or so far in the regular season. I could give two shits what he did a year ago.

Bronco9798
10-10-2014, 05:36 PM
I think where on the field you fumble is completely random and he's just had the bad luck of fumbling near the goal line. That's completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what he did in past years, all I know is that he looks way better this year than before and he didn't fumble at all in the preseason or so far in the regular season. I could give two shits what he did a year ago.

All true.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 05:41 PM
I think where on the field you fumble is completely random and he's just had the bad luck of fumbling near the goal line. That's completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what he did in past years, all I know is that he looks way better this year than before and he didn't fumble at all in the preseason or so far in the regular season. I could give two shits what he did a year ago.



Way better?
He has had like 15 carries all year.

Cj and Juwann looked way better than he did in pre-season. I will say hillman did look better this pre-season than old hillman, but thats not saying much i dont think.

dogfish
10-10-2014, 05:47 PM
"ronnie hillman is the guy"

no. . . until he shows otherwise, ronnie hillman is A guy. . . prove me wrong, ronnie! on this one though, i will hold elway and the coaching staff more responsible than the players on the field. . . it's one thing to say you want to run the ball-- it's another thing to actually have the personnel to do so, and we don't. . . no fullback and only one (decent at that, not special) blocking TE on the roster tells you how serious we really are about it. . . until the FO actually gets serious about committing to the run game, we probably won't have much of one regardless of how they shuffle the existing personnel around. . . although i am hopefully that a different back can show something more than the zilch ball has shown to this point this year. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 05:54 PM
Way better?
He has had like 15 carries all year.

Cj and Juwann looked way better than he did in pre-season. I will say hillman did look better this pre-season than old hillman, but thats not saying much i dont think.

I thought Juwan was by far the most impressive runner in the pre-season. I understand he was running against 3rd stringers, but he also had 3rd stringers blocking for him.

Ravage!!!
10-10-2014, 05:55 PM
I take SUCH little value in what was seen in pre-season.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 05:56 PM
My bad, i didnt read through the entire thread. I just clicked reply on page 1.

No worries dude...who has time to read through the whole thread before replying? I was just letting you know I was saying close the exact same thing you were.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 06:01 PM
I take SUCH little value in what was seen in pre-season.



But that is how we know ronnie is the guy. Thats how we know he improved.

Joel
10-10-2014, 06:03 PM
Couldnt agree more about the bolded part. I think Ball, CJ and Juwann are all those types of backs.
That's how the coaches have always sold them to the fans and media, and how they generally look in games. I personally think Thompson's the pick of the litter there, mainly he's got power-runner attitude.


I still despite what the few on here think about hillman do not think he is all that fast or speedy. He is rather agile though. Not my type of RB. Ill still hope he does well but I bet anything CJ out plays him and probably overtakes him in the 2nd half.
I think the problem is "quick" can mean several different things (e.g. velocity, acceleration, reflexes) and a guy can have one or more yet lack others. Hillman's "quick" in the scatbacks sense: He's got a good burst and pivots well, but is no burner. "Three cone and shuttle quick" rather than "40 quick." As with the others, that's pretty much how the coaches have consistently presented him, and pretty much what he's consistently shown. It's a valuable asset, but NOT what I want in a starter; I need him to move piles or breakaway, preferably both.


Its probably a 70-30 or 80-20 thing Joel. IMO.

I mean, obviously, when we line 2 TE set we run 100% of the time. We all know we are running on first down and out of the pistol. It is obvious so the LB can play closer, the Saftey can drop low in the box. It is a factor. I would still say mostly it is on the Oline and TE for not holding or pushing their damn blocks. We have some meat up front. Those guys should be able to plow anything in front of them for 1 yard! let alont the league average 2.53.
That's the thing for me: I don't expect them to indefinitely stonewall defenders who know what's coming, but Franklin, Ramirez and Clark are WAY too big and strong to get canned at the snap (to be clear: So are Clady and Vasquez, but THEY GET their push.) I concede even that's partly playcalling though; stretches, counters, traps, draws: What two things do these plays have in common?

1) They hinge on moving around blockers to concentrate them at the point of attack and/or create angles while isolating defenders—often by INVITING them into the backfield but AWAY from the play—and

2) We run those plays A LOT. I haven't counted, but would seriously bet it's 75-80% of our runs.

As much as we use plays like that in our run game, I recall NONE for 10+ yds this year. Maybe I missed a few, but they've been rare enough so far to be memorable; what do our GOOD runs have in common? Good line surge and push inside, because that plays to the strengths of our linemen AND RBs, while mitigating their weaknesses. THAT'S on the playcaller, whomever he (or they) may be.

underrated29
10-10-2014, 06:08 PM
That's how the coaches have always sold them to the fans and media, and how they generally look in games. I personally think Thompson's the pick of the litter there, mainly he's got power-runner attitude.


I think the problem is "quick" can mean several different things (e.g. velocity, acceleration, reflexes) and a guy can have one or more yet lack others. Hillman's "quick" in the scatbacks sense: He's got a good burst and pivots well, but is no burner. "Three cone and shuttle quick" rather than "40 quick." As with the others, that's pretty much how the coaches have consistently presented him, and pretty much what he's consistently shown. It's a valuable asset, but NOT what I want in a starter; I need him to move piles or breakaway, preferably both.


That's the thing for me: I don't expect them to indefinitely stonewall defenders who know what's coming, but Franklin, Ramirez and Clark are WAY too big and strong to get canned at the snap (to be clear: So are Clady and Vasquez, but THEY GET their push.) I concede even that's partly playcalling though; stretches, counters, traps, draws: What two things do these plays have in common?

1) They hinge on moving around blockers to concentrate them at the point of attack and/or create angles while isolating defenders—often by INVITING them into the backfield but AWAY from the play—and

2) We run those plays A LOT. I haven't counted, but would seriously bet it's 75-80% of our runs.

As much as we use plays like that in our run game, I recall NONE for 10+ yds this year. Maybe I missed a few, but they've been rare enough so far to be memorable; what do our GOOD runs have in common? Good line surge and push inside, because that plays to the strengths of our linemen AND RBs, while mitigating their weaknesses. THAT'S on the playcaller, whomever he (or they) may be.



Yep. That was my gripe in the seattle game and gameday thread.

Joel
10-10-2014, 06:15 PM
I think where on the field you fumble is completely random and he's just had the bad luck of fumbling near the goal line. That's completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what he did in past years, all I know is that he looks way better this year than before and he didn't fumble at all in the preseason or so far in the regular season. I could give two shits what he did a year ago.
It's not COMPLETELY random; defenders are more prone to going for the strip near either goal line. Statistically, a turnover's 4 Expected Points REGARDLESS of location, but that's a probability thing rather than an actual points thing; a midfield turnover's only worth 2 EPs because that's what P(score)*Value(score) is for ANY team with the ball at midfield.

Near the goal line the probability of a score approaches 100%, so our goal line's worth right at -2 EPs and theirs right at 6. The value of the score didn't change, but its PROBABILITY did, and even players who lack former Bengals QB Virgil Carters graduate math degree know that intuitively whether or not they know the math: When the ball's near someones end zone, SOMEONE usually scores sooner than later. So when the ball's near the end zone, the D tries that much harder to strip it, either to convert the -6 pts for their own goal line into a less painful -2, or convert the 2 near ours into an even better 6.

Joel
10-10-2014, 06:17 PM
Yep. That was my gripe in the seattle game and gameday thread.
I seem to recall that, in between being subjected to the No True Broncos Fan Fallacy, but I try not to publicly agree with you too often lest you become collateral damage :tongue:

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 06:44 PM
Cj and Juwann looked way better than he did in pre-season. I will say hillman did look better this pre-season than old hillman, but thats not saying much i dont think.

No, they didn't. Hillman was every bit as good as them in the preseason, and he was doing it against starters.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2014, 06:46 PM
No, they didn't. Hillman was every bit as good as them in the preseason, and he was doing it against starters.

Hmmm, I'm not sure we were watching the same games. :D

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 06:46 PM
I take SUCH little value in what was seen in pre-season.

I put some value into what people do against starters in the preseason, and pretty much all of Hillman's preseason action came against starters since Ball was out most of the preseason. I put zero stock into what JT did against 3rd stringers though.

BroncoWave
10-10-2014, 07:03 PM
And one more thing, to say CJ and Juwan have outpreformed Hillman is to directly go in the face of where the coaches have put those guys on the depth chart. Hillman was ahead of them the entire preseason, and since whatever shenanigans he got into in Dallas, he has been ahead of them on the depth chart in the regular season.

Joel
10-10-2014, 09:45 PM
And one more thing, to say CJ and Juwan have outpreformed Hillman is to directly go in the face of where the coaches have put those guys on the depth chart. Hillman was ahead of them the entire preseason, and since whatever shenanigans he got into in Dallas, he has been ahead of them on the depth chart in the regular season.
It's not that simple, because Hillman's not built like our other RBs, so they aren't suited to the same roles, so it's not a straight progression right down the depth chart. "Change of pace starter" doesn't make much sense. But half our other RBs (including Ball, for that matter) have only been on the team a year and the rest are either rookies or FAs signed THIS WEEK. That gives Hillman a leg up (so to speak) in Manning and Gases very complex offense, even without considering the difficulty rookie RBs often have picking up blitzers.

Ravage!!!
10-11-2014, 10:29 AM
It's not that simple, because Hillman's not built like our other RBs, so they aren't suited to the same roles, so it's not a straight progression right down the depth chart. "Change of pace starter" doesn't make much sense. But half our other RBs (including Ball, for that matter) have only been on the team a year and the rest are either rookies or FAs signed THIS WEEK. That gives Hillman a leg up (so to speak) in Manning and Gases very complex offense, even without considering the difficulty rookie RBs often have picking up blitzers.

Yeah.. I have to agree with this.

Many times a guy is the starter because of how they match with the other RBs on the roster. Who's the better change of pace, are there two guys just the same.....or who is better at protecting the passer or reading the defenses from the LoS.

I think EVERYONE knows that Hillman isn't the guy we would rely on to give the ball 30 times a game. He's not built for that, and we didn't draft him to be that kind of RB. He'll get the "start".. he'll get his carries, but its a RBBC situation in Denver. From now on (Ball or no Ball)... I would expect that to be the case.

Bronco9798
10-11-2014, 10:42 AM
Very few backs carry the load anymore. Years back RB's carried the load and always had a fullback in the backfield with them. Withe spread offenses you don't get that combination much anymore. Every team relies on at least two RB's now a days, if not three. Anybody thinking Hillman is going to rush the ball 30 times is crazy. I really don't think anybody thinks that.

Joel
10-11-2014, 11:59 AM
Yeah.. I have to agree with this.

Many times a guy is the starter because of how they match with the other RBs on the roster. Who's the better change of pace, are there two guys just the same.....or who is better at protecting the passer or reading the defenses from the LoS.

I think EVERYONE knows that Hillman isn't the guy we would rely on to give the ball 30 times a game. He's not built for that, and we didn't draft him to be that kind of RB. He'll get the "start".. he'll get his carries, but its a RBBC situation in Denver. From now on (Ball or no Ball)... I would expect that to be the case.
It'll be interesting how much we do RBBC while Ball's out, because to the extent we do, you're right "starter" is a somewhat trivial designation: We can start with Lightning and switch to Thunder as easily as the reverse, and it'll interfere with defensive adjustments just as much. If we don't USE a workhorse, Hillmans inability to BE one matters far less.

I think part of the reason RBs are valued less is that it's really hard to find anyone with breakaway speed who can turn on dime to gash Ds for huge yardage AND power through tackles to convert short yardage/goal line situations AND pick up blitzers AND sneak out into the flat to make catches on 3rd and long—so coaches/GMs quit trying, and went to RBBC instead. It's easier to find a bunch of RBs who each do a few different things well than one RB who does EVERYTHING well.

Unfortunately, that means there's only one or two guys suited to 1st and 10 or 2nd and 5, so when they're on the field the D has a good idea of what's coming, and when they rotate out for a guy that sucks at that but excels at 3rd and long as much as THEY suck at that, the D notices that, too. It's hard to overestimate the value of an every down back in keeping the D honest. It is what it is, but I have some hope Anderson or Thompson can be that guy, and one or both should get the chance to prove it over the next few weeks; if they succeed, Hillman—AND Ball—could lose the starting job, and Denver dump RBBC.

Ravage!!!
10-11-2014, 01:26 PM
Yeah. Not only is it hard to find one RB that can do it all...but they get hurt and don't last long. Hence the RBs have a lower shelf life and its hard to justify spending top money for a guy that most likely won't be around very long. Its a passing league with disposable RBs.

underrated29
10-11-2014, 02:39 PM
And one more thing, to say CJ and Juwan have outpreformed Hillman is to directly go in the face of where the coaches have put those guys on the depth chart. Hillman was ahead of them the entire preseason, and since whatever shenanigans he got into in Dallas, he has been ahead of them on the depth chart in the regular season.



Well, last year Hillman was the starter all through TC And preseason, who stared game 1? Knowshon.


But yes, Hillman will start. I suspect CJ will surpass him 2nd half of the game.

Ravage!!!
10-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Well, last year Hillman was the starter all through TC And preseason, who stared game 1? Knowshon.


But yes, Hillman will start. I suspect CJ will surpass him 2nd half of the game.

Depends on what you are saying here. I wouldn't be surprised if the Game Plan is to have one RB be the main guy in the first half, and another one be the main guy in the second. That's not unusual for a RBBC situation.

Bronco9798
10-11-2014, 03:39 PM
Depends on what you are saying here. I wouldn't be surprised if the Game Plan is to have one RB be the main guy in the first half, and another one be the main guy in the second. That's not unusual for a RBBC situation.

I'm not real sure about that plan there. Strange. I think they start one and rotate with all of them as the game goes along and see how the game unfolds. Usually the game and the flow of the game dictates rotations.

NightTerror218
10-11-2014, 03:53 PM
I'm not sure about that. Hillman is about 185. Charles is about 15 pounds heavier.

IMO, they have similar home run ability, but Charles is more likely to break a tackle. MY two nocks on Hillman have been ball security, and the apparent lack of being able to break a tackle. That doesn't mean I don't like the kid, I just don't see him as an every down back.

Hillman is 5'11" 195lb
Charles 6'1" 199lb

Similar in size. Hillman is heavier then last year. Running better too.

chazoe60
10-11-2014, 04:22 PM
Well, I was in bye hell on one of my FF teams so I picked up Hillman. Hopefully he gets some points this week.

Joel
10-11-2014, 04:51 PM
Yeah. Not only is it hard to find one RB that can do it all...but they get hurt and don't last long. Hence the RBs have a lower shelf life and its hard to justify spending top money for a guy that most likely won't be around very long. Its a passing league with disposable RBs.
Most of the few elite do-it-all guys are not only surviving, but thriving.

Arian Foster's still a top back despite missing some injury time the last two seasons (and nearly everyone misses SOME time to injuries; look at the Thomas Twins starting their careers that way.)

The Chiefs seamlessly transitioned from Larry Johnson to Jamaal Charles 6 years ago without missing a beat.

Lynch going "Beast Mode" in his playoff coming out party vs. the Saints was 4 years ago.

Even after tearing his ACL, Peterson came within 8 yds of the single-season rushing record DESPITE playing in the modern passing league; 8 years into his career, he's as good as ever.

The problem is guys that good at that many things are at least as hard to find as franchise QBs; it's easier to just rotate specialists. Trouble is, it's easier for the D, too, because it tells them what's coming.

Jsteve01
10-12-2014, 01:06 AM
Remember that time when every single member of this board hated knowshon? Remember how he played for 1.5 seasons? I'm hoping for similar results

BroncoJoe
10-12-2014, 06:56 AM
Hillman, Thompson, Anderson. I don't care, but I'm anxious to see our running game today.

BroncoWave
10-12-2014, 07:26 AM
Remember that time when every single member of this board hated knowshon? Remember how he played for 1.5 seasons? I'm hoping for similar results

Yeah, you'd think after Knowshon Broncos fans would have learned their lesson not to write of RBs so quickly. Especially a guy like Hillman who was like 20 years old coming into the league.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 11:33 AM
Jest have a stout run D. Whoever gets the opportunities today, just hope they excel. If not we throw the ball, it really don't matter. We should be fine. I see a tight game though, unfortunately.

wayninja
10-12-2014, 01:53 PM
3rd Q and even with some nasty holding penalties negating some great runs, Hillman is doing quite well.

Zweems56
10-12-2014, 02:09 PM
Jest have a stout run D. Whoever gets the opportunities today, just hope they excel. If not we throw the ball, it really don't matter. We should be fine. I see a tight game though, unfortunately.

Niner, that fumble is what concerns me bro. Now I'm hoping Juwan makes the most of HIS opportunity :D

Joel
10-12-2014, 03:04 PM
Nice; Hillman had an inside lane but tripped over his own feet and slowed just enough to be tackled.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 03:17 PM
Niner, that fumble is what concerns me bro. Now I'm hoping Juwan makes the most of HIS opportunity :D

Not concerned. He had a very good game. I still like him. I'm not going to back off of it.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 03:17 PM
Nice; Hillman had an inside lane but tripped over his own feet and slowed just enough to be tackled.

You're such a ******* dipshit. Start criticizing now.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 03:18 PM
Jest have a stout run D. Whoever gets the opportunities today, just hope they excel. If not we throw the ball, it really don't matter. We should be fine. I see a tight game though, unfortunately.

Hillman had a good game. I was pleased. And it was a tight game. Good job on the road!!!

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 03:23 PM
Orlando Franklin almost cost Hillman his 100 yard game, dude is really struggling in run game. Looks just like Beadles.

BroncoWave
10-12-2014, 03:28 PM
So UR, the problems with the running game had nothing to do with ball right?

Joel
10-12-2014, 03:36 PM
You're such a ******* dipshit. Start criticizing now.
Sorry, accidentally posted that here instead of the Gameday Thread. Thanks for cussing me out though; stay classy! :)

Northman
10-12-2014, 03:38 PM
So UR, the problems with the running game had nothing to do with ball right?

:popcorn:

DenBronx
10-12-2014, 03:38 PM
Orlando Franklin almost cost Hillman his 100 yard game, dude is really struggling in run game. Looks just like Beadles.

Well he didnt at RT. Move his ass back where he belongs.

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 04:01 PM
So UR, the problems with the running game had nothing to do with ball right?

Doesn't look good for Ball does it? To be fair, between JT and Franklin it's hard to judge any back. Hillman's quickness might be just what this OL needs right now, they don't have to hold blocks as long, that split second helps. I think it helps taking snaps from under C too.

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 04:05 PM
Well he didnt at RT. Move his ass back where he belongs.

He'll be fine I think, let them play it out. Franklin is getting beat by quickness, I think that's something he can get better at. Plus he's doing fine in Pass Pro, for the most part, and I think the position change was an effort to get better up the middle to keep the pocket clean.

Joel
10-12-2014, 04:36 PM
He'll be fine I think, let them play it out. Franklin is getting beat by quickness, I think that's something he can get better at.
We've been hearing that four years running: Will it happen before he hits 30, or at least retirement? His anticipation mayimprove—eventually, with coaching (said with a straight face) but his reflexes, agility and balance are probably as good as they'll ever get. Sadly, that'sgreat reason to NOT move him back to RT, where the same deficiencies caused the same problem, except Manning paid the price instead of our RBs. Turnstile OTs who can only handle power rushers make crappy pulling guards; maybe he could play RG, but pulling to lead block strong side is asking too much: It doesn't open a hole, it LEAVES one.


Plus he's doing fine in Pass Pro, for the most part, and I think the position change was an effort to get better up the middle to keep the pocket clean.
Or maybe give him an easier pass job better suited to his great strength but limited quickness. Franklin's everything Beadles and Hamilton weren't—good AND bad. It remains unclear if that's a net gain.

underrated29
10-12-2014, 04:53 PM
So UR, the problems with the running game had nothing to do with ball right?



Well....this game, Hillman has 4.1 ypc
Ball vs chiefs had 5.0 ypc.


Sooooooooooo, please tell me which number is bigger.

underrated29
10-12-2014, 04:57 PM
Well....this game, Hillman has 4.1 ypc
Ball vs chiefs had 5.0 ypc.


Sooooooooooo, please tell me which number is bigger.



I'd also like to add that this game the rbs were allowed to run past the LOS before they were touched. W know montee averages 6 when that happens. Hillman as we. Saw gets 4.

Finally let's also remember there were a few plays where the jets had 4, I say again FOUR, guys in the box. FOUR! Lmao.

But, having said all of that we do look. Enter running the ball. The OL actually opened up several holes. Some of them were freaking huge!! I still think we need another 3-4 weeks before they get it.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 05:02 PM
Sometimes I just shake my head and think WTF.

Northman
10-12-2014, 05:02 PM
I'd also like to add that this game the rbs were allowed to run past the LOS before they were touched. W know montee averages 6 when that happens. Hillman as we. Saw gets 4.

Finally let's also remember there were a few plays where the jets had 4, I say again FOUR, guys in the box. FOUR! Lmao.

But, having said all of that we do look. Enter running the ball. The OL actually opened up several holes. Some of them were freaking huge!! I still think we need another 3-4 weeks before they get it.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thats not what you were saying in the gameday thread AT ALL. You so silly.

BroncoJoe
10-12-2014, 05:06 PM
Well....this game, Hillman has 4.1 ypc
Ball vs chiefs had 5.0 ypc.


Sooooooooooo, please tell me which number is bigger.


I'd also like to add that this game the rbs were allowed to run past the LOS before they were touched. W know montee averages 6 when that happens. Hillman as we. Saw gets 4.

Finally let's also remember there were a few plays where the jets had 4, I say again FOUR, guys in the box. FOUR! Lmao.

But, having said all of that we do look. Enter running the ball. The OL actually opened up several holes. Some of them were freaking huge!! I still think we need another 3-4 weeks before they get it.

Stick to hockey, bro.

SR
10-12-2014, 05:27 PM
Stick to hockey, bro.

He isn't even good at that ;)

underrated29
10-12-2014, 05:28 PM
Well since none of you can actually backup anything I say with facts stats or anything else I think we can all conclude that I am right. The OLine is the biggest reason why our run game sucks.

I challenge any of you football geniuses to come up with anything countering aside from shaking heads and remarks of the sort. Until then I will hold my breath.

underrated29
10-12-2014, 05:29 PM
He isn't even good at that ;)



Ooooh haha smart ass. Finally you show back up. I thought you said you were going to post a bit more.

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 05:30 PM
Well since none of you can actually backup anything I say with facts stats or anything else I think we can all conclude that I am right. The OLine is the biggest reason why our run game sucks.

I challenge any of you football geniuses to come up with anything countering aside from shaking heads and remarks of the sort. Until then I will hold my breath.

Hopefully you will pass out and never wake up.

SR
10-12-2014, 05:30 PM
Ooooh haha smart ass. Finally you show back up. I thought you said you were going to post a bit more.

I'm here and there. Busy with work and my kids. I read and post when something catches my eye.

Northman
10-12-2014, 05:30 PM
Well since none of you can actually backup anything I say with facts stats or anything else I think we can all conclude that I am right. The OLine is the biggest reason why our run game sucks.

I challenge any of you football geniuses to come up with anything countering aside from shaking heads and remarks of the sort. Until then I will hold my breath.

Better check with Niner. He apparently is the only one that knows football. *fart*

SR
10-12-2014, 05:31 PM
Hopefully you will pass out and never wake up.

You're kind of a dick to most people for no reason. Just sayin.

Northman
10-12-2014, 05:32 PM
You're kind of a dick to most people for no reason. Just sayin.

You think? Lmao

Bronco9798
10-12-2014, 05:32 PM
You're kind of a dick to most people for no reason. Just sayin.

Some things you just can't resist.

SR
10-12-2014, 05:33 PM
Some things you just can't resist.

Whatever makes you feel good I guess.

SR
10-12-2014, 05:34 PM
You think? Lmao

What are you talking about? You're just football dumb and not worth my time.

BroncoJoe
10-12-2014, 05:34 PM
Well since none of you can actually backup anything I say with facts stats or anything else I think we can all conclude that I am right. The OLine is the biggest reason why our run game sucks.

I challenge any of you football geniuses to come up with anything countering aside from shaking heads and remarks of the sort. Until then I will hold my breath.

How do you explain Ronnie's 100 yard game when Ball has 67, 60, 38 and 7 in the four games he's started?

Northman
10-12-2014, 05:35 PM
What are you talking about? You're just football dumb and not worth my time.

Silly me.

SR
10-12-2014, 05:35 PM
How do you explain Ronnie's 100 yard game when Ball has 67, 60, 38 and 7 in the four games he's started?

Hillman looked really good today

Jsteve01
10-12-2014, 05:53 PM
Like I said lol

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 05:54 PM
We've been hearing that four years running: Will it happen before he hits 30, or at least retirement? His anticipation mayimprove—eventually, with coaching (said with a straight face) but his reflexes, agility and balance are probably as good as they'll ever get. Sadly, that'sgreat reason to NOT move him back to RT, where the same deficiencies caused the same problem, except Manning paid the price instead of our RBs. Turnstile OTs who can only handle power rushers make crappy pulling guards; maybe he could play RG, but pulling to lead block strong side is asking too much: It doesn't open a hole, it LEAVES one.


Or maybe give him an easier pass job better suited to his great strength but limited quickness. Franklin's everything Beadles and Hamilton weren't—good AND bad. It remains unclear if that's a net gain.

Do you ever tire of being wrong? Serious question.

Joel
10-12-2014, 06:03 PM
Do you ever tire of being wrong? Serious question.
You're the one who's spent four years saying the guy who can't move will eventually learn to move even though there's STILL no evidence of that and COUNTEREVIDENCE continues to mount.

If I'm wrong on this and everything, why are you sitting here CONCEDING Franklin STILL lacks quickness, however many excuses you keep making? Did you confuse a rhetorical question with a soliloquy?

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 06:16 PM
You're the one who's spent four years saying the guy who can't move will eventually learn to move even though there's STILL no evidence of that and COUNTEREVIDENCE continues to mount.

If I'm wrong on this and everything, why are you sitting here CONCEDING Franklin STILL lacks quickness, however many excuses you keep making? Did you confuse a rhetorical question with a soliloquy?

Where did I say he lacks quickness?

Joel
10-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Where did I say he lacks quickness?


He'll be fine I think, let them play it out. Franklin is getting beat by quickness, I think that's something he can get better at.
Oh, wait, I get it now: Franklin's not sluggish; EVERYONE ELSE is just QUICKER. Like, the South didn't lose the Civil War: They came in second. :tongue:

Tacklers aren't outrunning or beating him out of the blocks; they just have better reflexes, agility and balance, so they blow right by him—like they've done 4 years straight. But just keep saying it'll get better someday and someday it will; ever get tired of being seriously wrong? ;)

Simple Jaded
10-12-2014, 07:31 PM
Oh, wait, I get it now: Franklin's not sluggish; EVERYONE ELSE is just QUICKER. Like, the South didn't lose the Civil War: They came in second. :tongue:

Tacklers aren't outrunning or beating him out of the blocks; they just have better reflexes, agility and balance, so they blow right by him—like they've done 4 years straight. But just keep saying it'll get better someday and someday it will; ever get tired of being seriously wrong? ;)

I said he's getting beat by quickness not that he isn't quick enough to play G.

I feel assured that your opinion is the exact opposite though, PB votes should be forthcoming.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-13-2014, 09:25 AM
Every positive that Hillman brings to the table can be negated by a lack of ball security. He fumbled again yesterday that luckily didn't end up in the Jets' hands.

If he could just protect the ball better he'd be well suited for this offense.

TXBRONC
10-13-2014, 09:48 AM
Yeah Joel, I'm sure you'd know better than our offensive coordinator how Hillman runs.

Of coarse he would because he's a five star freakin genius.

Hawgdriver
10-13-2014, 09:55 AM
Every positive that Hillman brings to the table can be negated by a lack of ball security. He fumbled again yesterday that luckily didn't end up in the Jets' hands.

If he could just protect the ball better he'd be well suited for this offense.

Jury still out on Hillman. No excuse for the fumble yesterday at the end of a run when he knew he was being engaged in the process of a tackle. But the running part is for real.

Krugan
10-13-2014, 12:13 PM
One game where the Jets so much as said they were going to force us to run.

Running LB's out to double WRs We should have been able to run, and better....

The interior Oline got moved around yesterday or just flat out beat, this thing is NOT fixed, nor do I think it will be by years end. But thats just my opinion.

underrated29
10-13-2014, 12:14 PM
How do you explain Ronnie's 100 yard game when Ball has 67, 60, 38 and 7 in the four games he's started?



How do I explain it? Its pretty simple, but dont take my word for it- listen to:

John fox saying that the Jets didnt think we could run and left 2 or 3 guys in the box
Peyton manning laughing that the jets took all the Lbs away and left only 4 guys for our 5 OL to block
How about Rex Ryan the Jets coach saying "peyton is so freaking good we had to try something, even unothodox and only rush 3 and drop 8"


Its really pretty simple. This game we repeatedly faced 2,3,4,5 man boxes. The fact the jets did that was Absolutely Comical but they did. And whether anyone wants to believe me or not. ALL OF THE COACHES AND OUR QB SAID THEY DID!. Where EVERY other game we have faced 7,8,9 man fronts.


So once again,

Hillman 2,3,4,5 man fronts and 4.1 ypc
Ball 7,8,9 man fronts and 5.0 ypc



But please everyone, dont let the facts actually get in the way of the hillman dream land.

I will still hold my breath.

underrated29
10-13-2014, 12:18 PM
One game where the Jets so much as said they were going to force us to run.

Running LB's out to double WRs We should have been able to run, and better....

The interior Oline got moved around yesterday or just flat out beat, this thing is NOT fixed, nor do I think it will be by years end. But thats just my opinion.



Another person who actually watches the games. Bravo!

I agree with most everything you said except I expect it to get better each week progressively. I still am holding out hope that it will take another 3-4 weeks before we finally see this come together but the OL is bad.

One other thing we did a lot of today was run Right At the Defense. Run Downhill! That style of running has seemed to be our best style so far. With Montee and CJ anderson earlier in the year those were the type of plays that were successful. They were the plays I wanted us to run against seattle. Anyone can check my posts for seattle pre game and game day thread.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 12:24 PM
How do I explain it? Its pretty simple, but dont take my word for it- listen to:

John fox saying that the Jets didnt think we could run and left 2 or 3 guys in the box
Peyton manning laughing that the jets took all the Lbs away and left only 4 guys for our 5 OL to block
How about Rex Ryan the Jets coach saying "peyton is so freaking good we had to try something, even unothodox and only rush 3 and drop 8"


Its really pretty simple. This game we repeatedly faced 2,3,4,5 man boxes. The fact the jets did that was Absolutely Comical but they did. And whether anyone wants to believe me or not. ALL OF THE COACHES AND OUR QB SAID THEY DID!. Where EVERY other game we have faced 7,8,9 man fronts.


So once again,

Hillman 2,3,4,5 man fronts and 4.1 ypc
Ball 7,8,9 man fronts and 5.0 ypc



But please everyone, dont let the facts actually get in the way of the hillman dream land.

I will still hold my breath.

Not sure ANYONE plays Peyton with a 7,8,9 man box... LOL MAYBE 7 on a rare occasion.

Not sure either where you're getting Ball's 5.0 YPC average. It's actually 3.1 for the year. You got Hillman's close at least - he's averaging 4.0 YPC.

I'm not saying Hillman is the end-all-be-all, but Ball isn't preforming.

underrated29
10-13-2014, 02:01 PM
Not sure ANYONE plays Peyton with a 7,8,9 man box... LOL MAYBE 7 on a rare occasion.

Not sure either where you're getting Ball's 5.0 YPC average. It's actually 3.1 for the year. You got Hillman's close at least - he's averaging 4.0 YPC.

I'm not saying Hillman is the end-all-be-all, but Ball isn't preforming.




Go back and look at all of the games prior to ball getting hurt. There were 7,8,9 man fronts a lot! I have all the games on record to go back and watch. If you do I recommend you have another gander with the game day emotions out of it. Theres tons of things that we miss being caught up in the action.

I said Ball averaged 5.0 ypc against the chiefs. Not every game. But since we are using hillmans one and only best game- against fronts of 2,3,4 guys, I used balls best game against fronts of 6,7,8,9.


No, hillman is not the end all be all. None of the Rbs are. None of them are performing all that well. My point, as has been since about week 1.5, was that the Oline is the problem. They are NOT doing the job to give the backs time and or space. They are not even remotely close to blocking the league average of 2.53 yards before first touch....It is getting better and hopefully in several weeks it will be at least middle of the road. Right now, we are near dead last and its not the fault of the RB. Any RB on our squad.

As for hillman, I just dont like his style. I would rather any of our other backs be the starter and he be the change up, like sproles to mccoy. That I think would suit our team better as Juwann, Ball, CJ beat up the defense and then they have to start trying to chase hillman.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 02:10 PM
I really think you're exaggerating the fronts for Ball, and minimizing the fronts against Hillman. That's OK though.

I don't record every game. I could, but I don't and I won't. I'm not going to go back and watch them. It's not what I get paid to do.

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 02:12 PM
I don't record every game. I could, but I don't and I won't. I'm not going to go back and watch them. It's not what I get paid to do.

But how will you ever win a message board argument? :D

Joel
10-13-2014, 02:17 PM
Another person who actually watches the games. Bravo!

I agree with most everything you said except I expect it to get better each week progressively. I still am holding out hope that it will take another 3-4 weeks before we finally see this come together but the OL is bad.

One other thing we did a lot of today was run Right At the Defense. Run Downhill! That style of running has seemed to be our best style so far. With Montee and CJ anderson earlier in the year those were the type of plays that were successful. They were the plays I wanted us to run against seattle. Anyone can check my posts for seattle pre game and game day thread.
I agree with you and Krugan that the problem's not fixed, and that the run blocking's still pretty bad, but the thing is: If our RBs post 100 yd games against teams dropping 7, 8 or even NINE guys in coverage, isn't that good enough? Either opponents keep doing that and we keep moving the chains with 3 yds and a cloud of dust while our D sips gatorade and theirs gets bruised and exhausted, or they finally come up to stop the run and we throw over their heads. The point isn't that our run game must be as good as our passing game (small chance of that,) just good ENOUGH we run to establish the pass.

That still won't salt away second half leads, because it won't avoid incompletes or Ints that stop the clock or give teams equalizers, and opponents won't drop everyone in coverage when they know we're trying to kill the clock on the ground. We still need major improvement before the playoffs, so when it's 3rd and 1 with a small lead late two guys don't blow past Franklin at the snap to hit Hillman, and he doesn't go down on contact as he nearly ALWAYS does. We've taken a step in the right direction though, and if that keeps opponents honest, that's half the battle.

underrated29
10-13-2014, 04:18 PM
I really think you're exaggerating the fronts for Ball, and minimizing the fronts against Hillman. That's OK though.

I don't record every game. I could, but I don't and I won't. I'm not going to go back and watch them. It's not what I get paid to do.




I am not Joe, which is why no one on here can come up with anything to counter or even at least present anything to me to show that they are even partially correct. I dont do hyperbole. I have no care if I am right or wrong, I just want us to improve. I see that improvement coming from the OL not the RB.

2 head coaches and Peyton manning, who all know more about football then all of us combined, verbally said exactly what my stance has been. No exaggerations amigo.


I also forgot to mention that in this last game we brought in Paul Cornik an extra Olineman quite a few times to add support and meat to our run blocking. Something new. And we brought him in on many occasions this week.



I am sure that either this will be ignored (like most all of my points/stats have been) or discounted for some made up belief that Ronnie Hillman is actually the reason we are running the ball better.


Of course......There is also the PFF grades. Funny how no one of the Ronnie Hillman fan club ever cares to mention or touch on the OLs grades. Sure its PFF but they are more accurate then they are wrong. I dont care nor have the time to look up all the grades but I saw that ManRam was graded as a Minus 5.4 or something. Just this last week. I know in week 2 or 3 Franklin was also a big time negative.



But I will digress- facts, stats, actual scouts ranking and breakdown grading, and 2 head coaches and one of the greatest QBs to ever play are not actually admissible. They do not count and are completely wrong. All of them.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 04:22 PM
I don't know if Ronnie is the reason we're running better, but I can tell you I've NEVER seen a two man box, or even three. Unless it's at the end of a game/half defending the Hail Mary. So yes, you are exaggerating in that regard.

Either way, it is clear to me Ronnie sees the lanes better then Montee, and hits the open hole faster. I'm not a coach, don't work in professional football and only have my own eyes to tell me he looks better.

Bronco9798
10-13-2014, 04:29 PM
Who cares how many fronts you face, how many are in the box, what your avg is., and all that mumbo jumbo. Quit over analyzing this running game. Bottom line:

Hillman came in and ran the ball well yesterday. He had 100 yards. Thompson had like 40. Does it really matter what fronts they faced and how many were in the box and all that goofy crap that we as normal fans don't know what we're talking about most of the time anyway. Just produce and they did. We won, the running game worked and off we go with SF coming in. We'll line up Sunday night and try to run the ball again. if it works early fine, if not coaches make adjustments. lol..too funny. And yesterday was a great win. That's all that really matters.
Enjoy the season and quit debating. Damn, we won a ball game yesterday!!!!

SR
10-13-2014, 04:43 PM
Go back and look at all of the games prior to ball getting hurt. There were 7,8,9 man fronts a lot! I have all the games on record to go back and watch. If you do I recommend you have another gander with the game day emotions out of it. Theres tons of things that we miss being caught up in the action. I said Ball averaged 5.0 ypc against the chiefs. Not every game. But since we are using hillmans one and only best game- against fronts of 2,3,4 guys, I used balls best game against fronts of 6,7,8,9. No, hillman is not the end all be all. None of the Rbs are. None of them are performing all that well. My point, as has been since about week 1.5, was that the Oline is the problem. They are NOT doing the job to give the backs time and or space. They are not even remotely close to blocking the league average of 2.53 yards before first touch....It is getting better and hopefully in several weeks it will be at least middle of the road. Right now, we are near dead last and its not the fault of the RB. Any RB on our squad. As for hillman, I just dont like his style. I would rather any of our other backs be the starter and he be the change up, like sproles to mccoy. That I think would suit our team better as Juwann, Ball, CJ beat up the defense and then they have to start trying to chase hillman. Ball was really uninspiring in all four games he played. Not sure if you just can't see it or if you're just hell bent on sticking up for the guy.

Joel agrees with you man. Time to abandon ship.

VonDoom
10-13-2014, 04:57 PM
I agree with you and Krugan that the problem's not fixed, and that the run blocking's still pretty bad, but the thing is: If our RBs post 100 yd games against teams dropping 7, 8 or even NINE guys in coverage, isn't that good enough? Either opponents keep doing that and we keep moving the chains with 3 yds and a cloud of dust while our D sips gatorade and theirs gets bruised and exhausted, or they finally come up to stop the run and we throw over their heads. The point isn't that our run game must be as good as our passing game (small chance of that,) just good ENOUGH we run to establish the pass.

I agree with this. I don't think anyone is under the delusion that our run game will be our strong suit; we just have to do enough to keep opponents honest. They gave us the run yesterday and we took it. That's a success, IMO.

Side note - I'll say this for Ball: he's fought for his yards. I saw on Twitter that PFF said Hillman and Thompson broke zero tackles yesterday. Ball could've done that too. I like what I saw from both of those guys but I don't think we magically fixed our OL issues. It's a work in progress, and the team seems determined to figure it out.

TXBRONC
10-13-2014, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure about that. Hillman is about 185. Charles is about 15 pounds heavier.

IMO, they have similar home run ability, but Charles is more likely to break a tackle. MY two nocks on Hillman have been ball security, and the apparent lack of being able to break a tackle. That doesn't mean I don't like the kid, I just don't see him as an every down back.

No Hillman is 195 lbs and Charles is 199 lbs. Hillman has been more consistent in finishing runs but hasn't had any breakways like Charles has.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 05:15 PM
Let's not compare Hillman to Charles. That's just silly at this point.

GEM
10-13-2014, 05:22 PM
How do I explain it? Its pretty simple, but dont take my word for it- listen to:

John fox saying that the Jets didnt think we could run and left 2 or 3 guys in the box
Peyton manning laughing that the jets took all the Lbs away and left only 4 guys for our 5 OL to block
How about Rex Ryan the Jets coach saying "peyton is so freaking good we had to try something, even unothodox and only rush 3 and drop 8"


Its really pretty simple. This game we repeatedly faced 2,3,4,5 man boxes. The fact the jets did that was Absolutely Comical but they did. And whether anyone wants to believe me or not. ALL OF THE COACHES AND OUR QB SAID THEY DID!. Where EVERY other game we have faced 7,8,9 man fronts.


So once again,

Hillman 2,3,4,5 man fronts and 4.1 ypc
Ball 7,8,9 man fronts and 5.0 ypc



But please everyone, dont let the facts actually get in the way of the hillman dream land.

I will still hold my breath.

Hillman and Ball both suck (average), Thompson has potential (which is an evil ******* word) and Anderson can't seem to make it on the field. Who gives a shit who is better than who when in reality, they all are too new to know (plus the effing coaching staff won't give at least the one with some promise much of a shot) or too average to stand out. But hey, ya'll keep fighting over which turd is better than the other.

TXBRONC
10-13-2014, 05:28 PM
Way better?
He has had like 15 carries all year.

Cj and Juwann looked way better than he did in pre-season. I will say hillman did look better this pre-season than old hillman, but thats not saying much i dont think.

No they didn't. CJ and Juwan had good preseason but so did Hillman.

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Hillman and Ball both suck (average), Thompson has potential (which is an evil ******* word) and Anderson can't seem to make it on the field. Who gives a shit who is better than who when in reality, they all are too new to know (plus the effing coaching staff won't give at least the one with some promise much of a shot) or too average to stand out. But hey, ya'll keep fighting over which turd is better than the other.

Wait, are you saying "suck" and "average" mean the same thing?

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 05:52 PM
No they didn't. CJ and Juwan had good preseason but so did Hillman.

Yeah, I don't understand this narrative that CJ and Juwan were awesome in the preseason and Hillman wasn't. This just seems like revisionist history from people who don't like Hillman.

Joel
10-13-2014, 05:53 PM
Ball was really uninspiring in all four games he played. Not sure if you just can't see it or if you're just hell bent on sticking up for the guy.

Joel agrees with you man. Time to abandon ship.
As he and I have repeatedly noted, PFM, John Fox and Adam Gase have repeatedly and publicly agreed with US. Tell me again who thinks they're smarter than the guys Bowlen PAYS for what they know.


I agree with this. I don't think anyone is under the delusion that our run game will be our strong suit; we just have to do enough to keep opponents honest. They gave us the run yesterday and we took it. That's a success, IMO.

Side note - I'll say this for Ball: he's fought for his yards. I saw on Twitter that PFF said Hillman and Thompson broke zero tackles yesterday. Ball could've done that too. I like what I saw from both of those guys but I don't think we magically fixed our OL issues. It's a work in progress, and the team seems determined to figure it out.
A lot of it is just keeping the D honest; at least half. If teams can keep BOTH safeties back in a Cover 2 (or even Seattles beloved Cover 3) because ALL the LBs are sitting in middle zones, it's MUCH harder to pass on any decent D; we saw that Sunday and saw far too much of it in the SB. But even if we're not getting huge runs, if we keep moving the chains on the ground that D will get bruised and tired while ours stays fresh, until they finally have to start bringing more and more of those LBs and finally even the SS up into the box.

Then it's easy to pass: If they blitz, Manning makes a hot read to any of 3 Pro Bowlers and/or Sanders; if they play a shallow zone, he throws over their heads to 3 Pro Bowlers and/or Sanders vs. 2 CBs and a lone safety. Either way, he SHREDS them every time: It's inevitable. We've don't need a Murray or Charles busting off a pair of 30 yd runs every HALF, just someone to plow ahead for 3-5 yds every DOWN so the defense can't just double cover every receiver and/or send the house for Manning. The passing game's for hitting home runs, and ours truly is historys best—IF we run to establish the pass.

You're right about Ball breaking tackles, too; he's done that every game he's played, because our line forced him. The line blocked better Sunday and Ryan found out even our pathetic run blockers can beat a good run D if it sells out on the pass and FORCES us to do so. In general though, the main reason Ball's "not seeing the holes" is they usually haven't been there, not even as often as they were Sunday (and with all due respect to PFF—which ain't much—Thompson broke at least one tackle Sunday when he got into the secondary and spun off a guy before the next one tackled him ~3 yds later.)

ShaneFalco
10-13-2014, 05:54 PM
How do I explain it? Its pretty simple, but dont take my word for it- listen to:

John fox saying that the Jets didnt think we could run and left 2 or 3 guys in the box
Peyton manning laughing that the jets took all the Lbs away and left only 4 guys for our 5 OL to block
How about Rex Ryan the Jets coach saying "peyton is so freaking good we had to try something, even unothodox and only rush 3 and drop 8"


Its really pretty simple. This game we repeatedly faced 2,3,4,5 man boxes. The fact the jets did that was Absolutely Comical but they did. And whether anyone wants to believe me or not. ALL OF THE COACHES AND OUR QB SAID THEY DID!. Where EVERY other game we have faced 7,8,9 man fronts.


So once again,

Hillman 2,3,4,5 man fronts and 4.1 ypc
Ball 7,8,9 man fronts and 5.0 ypc



But please everyone, dont let the facts actually get in the way of the hillman dream land.

I will still hold my breath. i rewatched the game, your 100% right.

It was quite comical.

Broncos need to get Gurley next year. He would make people forgot about Ball and Hillman in a game or so.

Bronco9798
10-13-2014, 06:04 PM
You guys crack me up. You all figure it out and let Fox know what he needs to do get this running game going. lol..

Bronco9798
10-13-2014, 06:04 PM
As he and I have repeatedly noted, PFM, John Fox and Adam Gase have repeatedly and publicly agreed with US. Tell me again who thinks they're smarter than the guys Bowlen PAYS for what they know.


A lot of it is just keeping the D honest; at least half. If teams can keep BOTH safeties back in a Cover 2 (or even Seattles beloved Cover 3) because ALL the LBs are sitting in middle zones, it's MUCH harder to pass on any decent D; we saw that Sunday and saw far too much of it in the SB. But even if we're not getting huge runs, if we keep moving the chains on the ground that D will get bruised and tired while ours stays fresh, until they finally have to start bringing more and more of those LBs and finally even the SS up into the box.

Then it's easy to pass: If they blitz, Manning makes a hot read to any of 3 Pro Bowlers and/or Sanders; if they play a shallow zone, he throws over their heads to 3 Pro Bowlers and/or Sanders vs. 2 CBs and a lone safety. Either way, he SHREDS them every time: It's inevitable. We've don't need a Murray or Charles busting off a pair of 30 yd runs every HALF, just someone to plow ahead for 3-5 yds every DOWN so the defense can't just double cover every receiver and/or send the house for Manning. The passing game's for hitting home runs, and ours truly is historys best—IF we run to establish the pass.

You're right about Ball breaking tackles, too; he's done that every game he's played, because our line forced him. The line blocked better Sunday and Ryan found out even our pathetic run blockers can beat a good run D if it sells out on the pass and FORCES us to do so. In general though, the main reason Ball's "not seeing the holes" is they usually haven't been there, not even as often as they were Sunday (and with all due respect to PFF—which ain't much—Thompson broke at least one tackle Sunday when he got into the secondary and spun off a guy before the next one tackled him ~3 yds later.)


That ^^^^ is nothing but a mess!!

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 06:06 PM
You guys crack me up. You all figure it out and let Fox know what he needs to do get this running game going. lol..

You're right, let's just shut this board down since none of us know more than the coaches. Awesome insight!

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 06:07 PM
i rewatched the game, your 100% right.

It was quite comical.

Broncos need to get Gurley next year. He would make people forgot about Ball and Hillman in a game or so.

You saw 2 and 3 man fronts?

Pics please. There's no f'ing way that happened even once.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 06:09 PM
You're right, let's just shut this board down since none of us know more than the coaches. Awesome insight!


If you think about it honestly, your sarcasm is 100% correct.

Bronco9798
10-13-2014, 06:10 PM
You saw 2 and 3 man fronts?

Pics please. There's no f'ing way that happened even once.

Didn't you see 2 up front and 9 in coverage?? lol..

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 06:11 PM
If you think about it honestly, your sarcasm is 100% correct.

Well yeah, it should go without saying that none of us are as qualified as paid NFL coaches to discuss and break down football. But bringing it up as an argument tactic is kinda lame. We all realize (other than Joel maybe) that we don't know as much about the game as those who coach it for a living.

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 06:12 PM
You saw 2 and 3 man fronts?

Pics please. There's no f'ing way that happened even once.

Surely he meant 2-3 down linemen. There is definitely no way in hell there were 2-3 man boxes. The only time you ever see that is on hail mary defense.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 06:12 PM
Didn't you see 2 up front and 9 in coverage?? lol..

Uh, no. Never.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 06:14 PM
Surely he meant 2-3 down linemen. There is definitely no way in hell there were 2-3 man boxes. The only time you ever see that is on hail mary defense.

No. Look at the post. He said 2-3-4 man BOX.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 06:16 PM
No. Look at the post. He said 2-3-4 man BOX.

I stand corrected. He said front. Still...

Joel
10-13-2014, 06:20 PM
You guys crack me up. You all figure it out and let Fox know what he needs to do get this running game going. lol..
Fox, Gase and PFM have been saying all season that we must run better and a lot of it's bad blocking; if you didn't catch it, that's not my fault, u29s or anyones but YOURS. Aikman quoted Gase on air last week saying Seattle "exposed" (Gases word) our one-dimensional run-incapable offense in the SB. So who's sitting on their couch arguing with the coaches here?

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 06:22 PM
I stand corrected. He said front. Still...

In that case, he said Ball was facing fronts of 6, 7, 8, and 9. I have a pretty hard time believing that as well.

GEM
10-13-2014, 06:39 PM
Wait, are you saying "suck" and "average" mean the same thing?

I don't want average. So to me average sucks. My kids bring home c's...it sucks, they can get a's and b's. Average doesn't cut it for me.

BroncoWave
10-13-2014, 06:42 PM
I don't want average. So to me average sucks. My kids bring home c's...it sucks, they can get a's and b's. Average doesn't cut it for me.

Well then you are just being an unrealistic fan. The NFL has a salary cap and there are 32 teams. It's simply impossible to have great players playing at every position. Even the best teams have to settle for average here and there.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2014, 06:43 PM
You saw 2 and 3 man fronts?

Pics please. There's no f'ing way that happened even once.


They did do it, but disguised it.

They would start with a 7 man front, then drop all but 3 down lineman into coverage. It happened quite a bit. That's why Manning struggled so much in the passing game in the first half. Fox referred to it in his presser.

Joel
10-13-2014, 07:00 PM
They did do it, but disguised it.

They would start with a 7 man front, then drop all but 3 down lineman into coverage. It happened quite a bit. That's why Manning struggled so much in the passing game in the first half. Fox referred to it in his presser.
Ridiculous; what makes this John Fox dude think HE knows more than Coach Fox?! :tongue: I believe Manning mentioned it as well; chuckled about linemen going out to help cover WRs—not in some kind of zone dog so a DB could rush—but IN ADDITION to all the DBs in coverage. Maybe Ryan respected Manning too much (or maybe he realized FA and Millners injury left him NOTHING at CB.) Seattle did it a lot a month ago and last February, too, and are not just one of the few teams to beat us the last three seasons, but the ONLY one to do it TWICE. Hence the COACHES' mantra since the SB has been "must run block better."

underrated29
10-13-2014, 07:17 PM
Hillman and Ball both suck (average), Thompson has potential (which is an evil ******* word) and Anderson can't seem to make it on the field. Who gives a shit who is better than who when in reality, they all are too new to know (plus the effing coaching staff won't give at least the one with some promise much of a shot) or too average to stand out. But hey, ya'll keep fighting over which turd is better than the other.



You've missed the point gem, I don't care which back it is. I'm saying the run game sucks because of the OLine. Not the backs. I think once the OLine is fixed the run game will be too. After that pick a back, I don't care. I think Hillman is the worst of our backs but none will do well for a few more weeks.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:20 PM
They did do it, but disguised it.

They would start with a 7 man front, then drop all but 3 down lineman into coverage. It happened quite a bit. That's why Manning struggled so much in the passing game in the first half. Fox referred to it in his presser.

Sure. When it was obvious it was a pass. I guess you all don't understand how defenses work.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2014, 07:23 PM
Sure. When it was obvious it was a pass. I guess you all don't understand how defenses work.

Where did that come from? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the coffin?

No need to be a jerk, I was just replying to your comment that it never happened.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:28 PM
Where did that come from? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the coffin?

No need to be a jerk, I was just replying to your comment that it never happened.

lol. Coffin. Good one.

How was I a jerk to you? I am 100% confident the Jets never used a 2 or 3 man front.

Joel
10-13-2014, 07:30 PM
They would start with a 7 man front, then drop all but 3 down lineman into coverage. It happened quite a bit. That's why Manning struggled so much in the passing game in the first half. Fox referred to it in his presser.Sure. When it was obvious it was a pass. I guess you all don't understand how defenses work.
At least no one claimed to be smarter than our coaches.... ;)

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:33 PM
At least no one claimed to be smarter than our coaches.... ;)

What exactly did Fox say? That they were only playing 2-3 in the box?

I'd like to see that quote.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2014, 07:38 PM
lol. Coffin. Good one.

How was I a jerk to you?

You said I don't understand how defenses work.

I was simpy stating the Jets were disguising what they did. They would drop 8 guys into coverage, leaving a 3 man front.

underrated29
10-13-2014, 07:39 PM
I stand corrected. He said front. Still...



I just took a few pics of those fronts. I can text them to you now if you'd like, or I will post them tomorrow for everyone to see.


I feel like ace Ventura.
Man I'm tired of being right.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:41 PM
You said I don't understand how defenses work.

I was simpy stating the Jets were disguising what they did. They would drop 8 guys into coverage, leaving a 3 man front.

I said you all. Didn't single you out. Unlike what you did...

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:42 PM
I just took a few pics of those fronts. I can text them to you now if you'd like, or I will post them tomorrow for everyone to see.


I feel like ace Ventura.
Man I'm tired of being right.


Post them, or text. Don't care.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2014, 07:44 PM
I said you all. Didn't single you out. Unlike what you did...

You replied to my post, what was I suppose to think? It was a safe assumption you were talking to me when you quoted my post. Even if you weren't replying to me you were being a tad, crotchety, shall we say. :D

underrated29
10-13-2014, 07:44 PM
Post them, or text. Don't care.

Damn you joe. I knew you were going to say that. I don't know how to post pics from my cell and iPad. Lol- feel free to rain down on that. That's why I was hoping you'd be fine waiting until tomorrow. I at least as somewhat serviceable from a real computer.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:46 PM
You replied to my post, what was I suppose to think? It was a safe assumption you were talking to me when you quoted my post. Even if you weren't replying to me you were being a tad, crotchety, shall we say. :D

Comon, man. I would have said YOU. Not you all.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:48 PM
Damn you joe. I knew you were going to say that. I don't know how to post pics from my cell and iPad. Lol- feel free to rain down on that. That's why I was hoping you'd be fine waiting until tomorrow. I at least as somewhat serviceable from a real computer.


I am fine waiting for tomorrow. I'll anxiously await seeing a two man front. Even three for that matter.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2014, 07:50 PM
Comon, man. I would have said YOU. Not you all.

Ok Joe, I'm sorry-

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 07:52 PM
Ok Joe, I'm sorry-

Damn right you're sorry!

;)

underrated29
10-13-2014, 07:53 PM
I sent you a text joe. I'll post some more tomorrow.

SR
10-13-2014, 07:53 PM
Tell me again who thinks they're smarter than the guys Bowlen PAYS for what they know.

You.

Joel
10-13-2014, 07:55 PM
What exactly did Fox say? That they were only playing 2-3 in the box?

I'd like to see that quote.
Me, too; I didn't see it, but took AW4M at his word.

BroncoJoe
10-13-2014, 08:04 PM
I sent you a text joe. I'll post some more tomorrow.

Got it, and I have to admit that particular play was a two man front.

It was 2nd and 10, couldn't see the time remaining or what the actual play that was run (UR said it was an 11 yard run).

It's not like they played that defense all night though. My original point is Hillman is running better than Ball.

Joel
10-13-2014, 08:17 PM
You.
Fox, Gase and PFM keep publicly saying the same thing I've been saying for a while, while ya'll say I (and thus they) are wrong and think I (and thus they) are smarter than them. Odd....

GEM
10-13-2014, 08:20 PM
Well then you are just being an unrealistic fan. The NFL has a salary cap and there are 32 teams. It's simply impossible to have great players playing at every position. Even the best teams have to settle for average here and there.

*stomps feet* dammmmit I want perfect!! What I want and what I get are totally separate things. But I'm not going to sit and argue the merits of who is better of 2 very average backs. That turds shinier, well that turd has more consistency...at the end of the day, they're both turds.

Simple Jaded
10-13-2014, 10:42 PM
Fox, Gase and PFM keep publicly saying the same thing I've been saying for a while, while ya'll say I (and thus they) are wrong and think I (and thus they) are smarter than them. Odd....

What's odd is the rare occasion that you agree with Fox, Gase, PFM or Elway. Your example is the exception, not the rule.

Joel
10-13-2014, 10:54 PM
What's odd is the rare occasion that you agree with Fox, Gase, PFM or Elway. Your example is the exception, not the rule.
Perhaps, but the point still stands: All our coaches and PFM have repeatedly said the running in general and run blocking in particular aren't good enough, so the only people questioning our coaches wisdom are the one disputing that; my AGREEMENT with our coaches CERTAINLY isn't disputing them. Pick a better excuse, or at least a different one.

SR
10-13-2014, 11:00 PM
Perhaps, but the point still stands: All our coaches and PFM have repeatedly said the running in general and run blocking in particular aren't good enough, so the only people questioning our coaches wisdom are the one disputing that; my AGREEMENT with our coaches CERTAINLY isn't disputing them. Pick a better excuse, or at least a different one.
You're talking in circles

Joel
10-13-2014, 11:40 PM
You're talking in circles
Repeating FACTS when people insist on denying them just for the sake of doing so isn't circular logic: It's ONE statement some folks refuse to accept, not a wraparound chain.

Look, it's really simple: Fox, Gase and PFM have all publicly and repeatedly said our general run game and specifically our run BLOCKING must improve. One either agrees or disagrees with that (and thus them.)

underrated29
10-13-2014, 11:41 PM
Joel has it, he just talks so much he confuses himself and us. But the coaches and players and I've heard it on the radio, the Ol and te need to do a better job.


Every analyst will say it starts in the trenches. That s what Joel is echoing I believe and I 100% agree. I of course could be confused and miss his point entirely but I think this is what he is saying.

Joel
10-13-2014, 11:48 PM
Joel has it, he just talks so much he confuses himself and us. But the coaches and players and I've heard it on the radio, the Ol and te need to do a better job.

Every analyst will say it starts in the trenches. That s what Joel is echoing I believe and I 100% agree. I of course could be confused and miss his point entirely but I think this is what he is saying.
Nope, you got it completely and precisely, probably because you've known it for decades and won't ignore it just to be petty and/or a cheerleader. With solid blocking, a team that can't pass can make up for it if they have a good runner, and a team that can't run can make up for it if they have a good passer—but without a solid line they can't run OR pass consistently; even PUNTING'S dangerous.

Bronco9798
10-14-2014, 12:03 AM
Nope, you got it completely and precisely, probably because you've known it for decades and won't ignore it just to be petty and/or a cheerleader. With solid blocking, a team that can't pass can make up for it if they have a good runner, and a team that can't run can make up for it if they have a good passer—but without a solid line they can't run OR pass consistently; even PUNTING'S dangerous.

For all the critiquing and bitching you do, the Broncos are 4-1, 13-3, 13-3. in the last 3 years. Why be so critical. There are no perfect teams. For all the imperfections you bitch about the coaches find a way to disguise them and do other things. You can't be perfect in all areas of the game. But when you have a so called "scat back" as you refer to Hillman, for whatever reason, and you have a TE that can't block, and a bad offensive line that can't run block, yet we rushed for 140 Sunday, and you still get the job done and you win what more could you possibly want. The Broncos are pretty damn good but to listen to you, you would think we were 1-4 and getting blown out every week. What is it that keeps you so negative. Dude, I've been a Bronco fan since 1976. I've seen some lows. I remember watching Norris Weese, Steve Deberg, and a slew of people in other positions and we stunk man. There were some dark days in Bronco land before you even knew what bad was. I understand critiquing stuff. But you are critiquing a perfect scoring drive and other things are all so irrelevant. Do you ever find anything positive and get off that dark bandwagon of negativity? If you are a true fan throw a little bit of love out there for your team man every once in a while.

I take it you jumped on our bandwagon for whatever reason you did to just criticize? Is that what you do? Just find what you consider unproductive areas of the team and bitch about it. Throw some love and some positives out there every so often. You would probably get a lot more positive responses to your posts. I just don't get it.

SR
10-14-2014, 08:26 AM
Repeating FACTS when people insist on denying them just for the sake of doing so isn't circular logic: It's ONE statement some folks refuse to accept, not a wraparound chain. Look, it's really simple: Fox, Gase and PFM have all publicly and repeatedly said our general run game and specifically our run BLOCKING must improve. One either agrees or disagrees with that (and thus them.)

No shit it needs to improve. An offensive line built to pass protect for Peyton Manning is always going to need to improve at run blocking. This isn't some new concept.

SR
10-14-2014, 08:27 AM
For all the critiquing and bitching you do, the Broncos are 4-1, 13-3, 13-3. in the last 3 years. Why be so critical. There are no perfect teams. For all the imperfections you bitch about the coaches find a way to disguise them and do other things. You can't be perfect in all areas of the game. But when you have a so called "scat back" as you refer to Hillman, for whatever reason, and you have a TE that can't block, and a bad offensive line that can't run block, yet we rushed for 140 Sunday, and you still get the job done and you win what more could you possibly want. The Broncos are pretty damn good but to listen to you, you would think we were 1-4 and getting blown out every week. What is it that keeps you so negative. Dude, I've been a Bronco fan since 1976. I've seen some lows. I remember watching Norris Weese, Steve Deberg, and a slew of people in other positions and we stunk man. There were some dark days in Bronco land before you even knew what bad was. I understand critiquing stuff. But you are critiquing a perfect scoring drive and other things are all so irrelevant. Do you ever find anything positive and get off that dark bandwagon of negativity? If you are a true fan throw a little bit of love out there for your team man every once in a while. I take it you jumped on our bandwagon for whatever reason you did to just criticize? Is that what you do? Just find what you consider unproductive areas of the team and bitch about it. Throw some love and some positives out there every so often. You would probably get a lot more positive responses to your posts. I just don't get it.

This. All of it.

BroncoNut
10-14-2014, 09:13 AM
oh God, just when I thought the quality of this place was taking a positive turn, but back to topic. I didn't catch a lot of the game, but how exciting is this! Hillman running all over the place like that? wow!!

Mike
10-14-2014, 09:53 AM
For all the critiquing and bitching you do, the Broncos are 4-1, 13-3, 13-3. in the last 3 years. Why be so critical. There are no perfect teams. For all the imperfections you bitch about the coaches find a way to disguise them and do other things. You can't be perfect in all areas of the game. But when you have a so called "scat back" as you refer to Hillman, for whatever reason, and you have a TE that can't block, and a bad offensive line that can't run block, yet we rushed for 140 Sunday, and you still get the job done and you win what more could you possibly want. The Broncos are pretty damn good but to listen to you, you would think we were 1-4 and getting blown out every week. What is it that keeps you so negative. Dude, I've been a Bronco fan since 1976. I've seen some lows. I remember watching Norris Weese, Steve Deberg, and a slew of people in other positions and we stunk man. There were some dark days in Bronco land before you even knew what bad was. I understand critiquing stuff. But you are critiquing a perfect scoring drive and other things are all so irrelevant. Do you ever find anything positive and get off that dark bandwagon of negativity? If you are a true fan throw a little bit of love out there for your team man every once in a while.

I take it you jumped on our bandwagon for whatever reason you did to just criticize? Is that what you do? Just find what you consider unproductive areas of the team and bitch about it. Throw some love and some positives out there every so often. You would probably get a lot more positive responses to your posts. I just don't get it.

The Broncos are an elite team. The best in the AFC, IMO. They should be with the talent they have. I think the argument is that, while they are an elite team and have won a lot of games, they don't appear to be any better than the previous years...none of which resulted in a SB victory. It is great to have a very good team that wins the vast majority of their games, but winning the SB is the goal. I love watching them and am happy with each win, but still unconvinced that this team, today, is good enough to win the SB. I have worn my orange-colored glasses in the past, but they are off this season. I am still a fan, just a fan that is skeptical...given the last two postseasons, I don't think that it is unreasonable. I doubt Fox (all the time) and I doubt Manning (when it matters).

I am happy the running game was better this weekend. But hold reservations about it due to the unusual defenses the Jets were calling.

Believe it or not, people can still be fans and are happy with wins and still be critical and hold reservations.

Bronco9798
10-14-2014, 10:11 AM
The Broncos are an elite team. The best in the AFC, IMO. They should be with the talent they have. I think the argument is that, while they are an elite team and have won a lot of games, they don't appear to be any better than the previous years...none of which resulted in a SB victory. It is great to have a very good team that wins the vast majority of their games, but winning the SB is the goal. I love watching them and am happy with each win, but still unconvinced that this team, today, is good enough to win the SB. I have worn my orange-colored glasses in the past, but they are off this season. I am still a fan, just a fan that is skeptical...given the last two postseasons, I don't think that it is unreasonable. I doubt Fox (all the time) and I doubt Manning (when it matters).

I am happy the running game was better this weekend. But hold reservations about it due to the unusual defenses the Jets were calling.

Believe it or not, people can still be fans and are happy with wins and still be critical and hold reservations.

Good post!! There are no perfect teams though. Most teams that win Super bowls have a lack of strength here and there. It's all about how you play that day in the Super Bowl. You take last season, we got there with a fantastic offense, good special teams, and an adequate defense. I told my wife when we lost the coin flip, it was an omen. We had won 14 of 16 coin toss's last year. Then the bad snap and it all went down from there. I blame most of the Super Bowl last year on preparation and no focus, which goes back to coaching. We weren't ready for the big stage. This year our Defense vastly improved, our offense has taking a small step back with the running game so far and the up front blocking here. But that's probably how we're going to go through the season. We just have to overcome and adapt and probably rely on Peyton and our WR's. You ride your assets until they fail you. Our running game though is going to be enough to get us to the playoffs and we go from there. I personally think it will improve with time. We're only in week 7.

It just gets me when you having something special, like we have with Peyton, that people can't take the positive and just bitch about something and run it into the ground. say your piece and move on (not you, people in general) and quit rubbing into the ground with ad nauseam. make your point and move on and find something positive to talk about as well. I love the Broncos. I found more good than bad since we signed Peyton. I'm enjoying the ride so far. Like you, I want a Super Bowl. 97 98 were great years. I want that feeling again. I'm going to a fan of my team, not a distractor. I go back a long time with this team, Enjoy the good moments you have when they are winning. That's it!!!

tomjonesrocks
10-14-2014, 10:22 AM
According to Vic this morning, PFF said despite the decent performance by Hillman and Thompson, Denver backs didn't break a single tackle all day.

Thompson moved piles but Hillman I believe that about.

Bronco9798
10-14-2014, 10:25 AM
According to Vic this morning, PFF said despite the decent performance by Hillman and Thompson, Denver backs didn't break a single tackle all day.

Thompson moved piles but Hillman I believe that about.

We won and all runs were positive yards. There were no negative runs. We move on to next week and see what happens!

BroncoNut
10-14-2014, 10:39 AM
We won and all runs were positive yards. There were no negative runs. We move on to next week and see what happens!

why would anyone run negatively??? and who would call such a play???? what a moron. mods, get rid of this dufus

Joel
10-14-2014, 12:36 PM
Good post!! There are no perfect teams though. Most teams that win Super bowls have a lack of strength here and there. It's all about how you play that day in the Super Bowl. You take last season, we got there with a fantastic offense, good special teams, and an adequate defense. I told my wife when we lost the coin flip, it was an omen. We had won 14 of 16 coin toss's last year. Then the bad snap and it all went down from there. I blame most of the Super Bowl last year on preparation and no focus, which goes back to coaching. We weren't ready for the big stage. This year our Defense vastly improved, our offense has taking a small step back with the running game so far and the up front blocking here. But that's probably how we're going to go through the season. We just have to overcome and adapt and probably rely on Peyton and our WR's. You ride your assets until they fail you. Our running game though is going to be enough to get us to the playoffs and we go from there. I personally think it will improve with time. We're only in week 7.

It just gets me when you having something special, like we have with Peyton, that people can't take the positive and just bitch about something and run it into the ground. say your piece and move on (not you, people in general) and quit rubbing into the ground with ad nauseam. make your point and move on and find something positive to talk about as well. I love the Broncos. I found more good than bad since we signed Peyton. I'm enjoying the ride so far. Like you, I want a Super Bowl. 97 98 were great years. I want that feeling again. I'm going to a fan of my team, not a distractor. I go back a long time with this team, Enjoy the good moments you have when they are winning. That's it!!!
Something we can agree on at last (i.e. the red part, with which I'm fairly certain Mike also concurs.) I have no complaints and naught but praise for our very special QB, not to mention our 2 All Pro WRs (and a third who'll be voted first team if there's any justice at all) and Top Five D (by total yards, Del Rio's right so far: We're #4 overall.) But the elite parts doing well ain't what keep me awake nights.

Yes, this team has a TON of elite talent that makes it very special—a precious rarity—for any fan: We're not just championship contenders, but annual SB favorites. Teams like that aren't just rare, but BRIEF, because of age, free agency and the cap. That leaves a very narrow championship window, while the NFLs few games and single-elimination playoff permit few second chances: 2014 is our THIRD. We're more and more in a "now or never" scenario, and Mannings age is just the biggest of MANY reasons. After all we've done and gotten for it, no one wants to end up like the '98 Vikings. We're too good for 2nd place.

Hawgdriver
10-14-2014, 12:55 PM
the Ol and te need to do a better job.

I wonder if the problem is that we have a new OL with Clady's return, Clark's and Franklin's new position, Vasquez being injured, and Manning calling plays at the line with respect to what the defense is showing him. They pass block well enough so that Manning can adjust to any given pocket and hook up with his receivers, but they are exposed in run plays. Maybe the line just can't execute runs with such short notice, and without much experience at their position and working together? And throw in JT's struggles.

It does seem like something that will need to improve by season's end...thoughts?

Bronco9798
10-14-2014, 01:00 PM
I wonder if the problem is that we have a new OL with Clady's return, Clark's and Franklin's new position, Vasquez being injured, and Manning calling plays at the line with respect to what the defense is showing him. They pass block well enough so that Manning can adjust to any given pocket and hook up with his receivers, but they are exposed in run plays. Maybe the line just can't execute runs with such short notice, and without much experience at their position and working together? And throw in JT's struggles.

It does seem like something that will need to improve by season's end...thoughts?

It takes time. It's really nothing to worry about this stage of the season. We are 4-1. We have the next two at home and then we hit a 3 game stretch against the Patriots, Rams, and Raiders I think thats the way it goes. By then we need to be playing better up front. And if not, we get out of it what we can and rely on the passing game. You're gong to utilize your strength anyway, which is our passing game. If we hit our running game at spots and be a little effective, we'll be alright. It don't concern me that much. We're always going to throw in runs with our passing. If it works you keep running. I think we'll be fine though.

Joel
10-14-2014, 01:17 PM
I wonder if the problem is that we have a new OL with Clady's return, Clark's and Franklin's new position, Vasquez being injured, and Manning calling plays at the line with respect to what the defense is showing him. They pass block well enough so that Manning can adjust to any given pocket and hook up with his receivers, but they are exposed in run plays. Maybe the line just can't execute runs with such short notice, and without much experience at their position and working together? And throw in JT's struggles.
That's surely part of it, but the problem's far from novel; just because the coaches and press are finally discussing it openly doesn't change that. Mannings quick reads and throws have long made our pass blocking look far better than it is, just as McGahees yards after contact (and Morenos last year, unlike previous seasons) made the run blocking look better than it is. Even lacking some of last years power, Manning was STILL good enough in 2012 to get Kuper—ON ONE LEG—to the Pro Bowl, AND BEADLES (he even started thanks to Kupers injury and Logan Mankins'.) But even he can't do it all alone.


It does seem like something that will need to improve by season's end...thoughts?
It could hardly do other, and time can only help the collective consistency so critical to offensive lines, which truly are only as strong as their weakest link. Time will tell; here's hoping.

Hawgdriver
10-14-2014, 01:23 PM
I wonder about the decision to move Franklin.

underrated29
10-14-2014, 01:29 PM
I wonder if the problem is that we have a new OL with Clady's return, Clark's and Franklin's new position, Vasquez being injured, and Manning calling plays at the line with respect to what the defense is showing him. They pass block well enough so that Manning can adjust to any given pocket and hook up with his receivers, but they are exposed in run plays. Maybe the line just can't execute runs with such short notice, and without much experience at their position and working together? And throw in JT's struggles.

It does seem like something that will need to improve by season's end...thoughts?



Earlier this morning I read an article from ESPN (I know) and in it it stated that other teams coaches and players were being tipped off by our lineman on run plays. The way there were setting their feet and backing out early or whatever (for a pull or stretch play). They would see this and immediately shoot the gaps as they would be tipped off.


Like you said above, each player on the line is playing next to a new player from last year aside from Manram and Vasquez. Those two played together last year. Otherwise none of the other guys have. Itll take time, which is why I still think we need 3-4 weeks for them to get it going.

Hawgdriver
10-14-2014, 01:33 PM
.. other teams coaches and players were being tipped off by our lineman on run plays. The way there were setting their feet and backing out early or whatever (for a pull or stretch play). They would see this and immediately shoot the gaps as they would be tipped off.

This probably happens on every offensive line, right? Is the point that Denver is just that bad at concealing it?

Joel
10-14-2014, 01:48 PM
I wonder about the decision to move Franklin.
Yeah, I keep meaning to post in that thread but not doing it. I doubt we lost anything at RT, but what made Franklin a three-year liability there makes him one at LG: Slow feet. That's the primary pulling G on strong side runs, but if Franklin could pull he wouldn't have been a turnstile RT against LDEs, who are usually slower than RDEs precisely because they must be big enough stop strong side runs.

We might've been better off moving Franklin to the true road grader RG spot, but that would disrupt the line even more (plus Vasquez is a much better protector than run blocker, and Clark needs protection help as badly as Franklin did, for the same reason.) I think we moved Franklin for two reasons:

1) He's never been good at RT, only capable of stopping power rushers, not quick ones, and Clark's pretty much the same, so no net change.
2) We needed a decent LG before Beadles left, but DESPERATELY needed one after, and Franklin was the best option we had.

This is why I wanted to draft a road grading G early, not a 3rd round OT for a team with OTs (if only one great one) coming out its rear.

Joel
10-14-2014, 01:58 PM
Like you said above, each player on the line is playing next to a new player from last year aside from Manram and Vasquez. Those two played together last year. Otherwise none of the other guys have. Itll take time, which is why I still think we need 3-4 weeks for them to get it going.
Last year Ramirez did many running double teams with Beadles (very effectively; Beadles sucks at run blocking, but good enough for one half of a double team.) Now it's Franklin. Flip side, Vasquez went from compensating for Franklins bad protection to Clarks. There's been big changes for every lineman, and its worst for the main pulling guard, with new guys on BOTH sides at a spot he hasn't played since college.

Bronco9798
10-19-2014, 10:00 PM
How's our little "scatback" doing the last couple of weeks, Joel? This thread has some interesting comments. I personally enjoyed re-reading it!!!!

SR
10-19-2014, 10:29 PM
How's our little "scatback" doing the last couple of weeks, Joel? This thread has some interesting comments. I personally enjoyed re-reading it!!!!

His second TD said it all. He muscled his way in.

Bronco9798
10-19-2014, 10:37 PM
His second TD said it all. He muscled his way in.

I was impressed with him. He's making a lot of doubters think twice. He's worked hard and I'm glad for him.

Hawgdriver
10-19-2014, 11:51 PM
I was on the fence until he bulldozed over #50 to get the TD. That was boss.

Hawgdriver
10-19-2014, 11:51 PM
Keep holding onto the rock Dr. Hillstomp.

Joel
10-20-2014, 12:26 AM
How's our little "scatback" doing the last couple of weeks, Joel? This thread has some interesting comments. I personally enjoyed re-reading it!!!!
He's scatbacking, and doing a fine job of it, though he still goes down on first contact more often than not.


His second TD said it all. He muscled his way in.
No, he didn't: He got stood up at the 1 and Franklin came in from behind to push him in (which I guess makes up for blowing the block that got Hillman stood up at the 1 in the first place.)

Hillman sees the holes (when they're there) and does a good job finding cut back lanes when they're not, provided our line doesn't let half the D through to gang tackle him at the snap; he's a good change-of-pace scatback. But Thompson ALSO has at least a decent eye and makes good cutbacks yet regularly breaks tackles the way Hillman rarely does (I concede he broke a couple tonight.) On one of Hillmans long runs (inside, likely pretty much ALL our long runs; fortunately, we ran inside a lot tonight) the tacklers arrived short of the marker and a couple linemen had to push him forward to get the first.

As long as Hillman's getting it done, leave him in, but I think once Thompson's had time to learn the offense better and develop even better vision he'll be a MUCH better RB, and Hillman back to change-of-pace.

Simple Jaded
10-20-2014, 12:49 AM
Lmao, same old Joel, "I may not always be right but I'm never wrong".

Tebowtime2011
10-20-2014, 12:52 AM
Idk Joel it looked to me like Hillman just trucked him.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-20-2014, 01:17 AM
Idk Joel it looked to me like Hillman just trucked him.

Hillman was definitely running hard, but without Franklin pushing him he doesn't get in on that play.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-20-2014, 01:20 AM
The running game was a collective effort tonight. The line and TE's were doing a good job of creating lanes, and Hillman showed nice burst and acceleration.

We haven't had a back with that kind of acceleration since Tatum Bell, but he has better lateral quickness than Bell did.

MOtorboat
10-20-2014, 02:11 AM
He's scatbacking, and doing a fine job of it, though he still goes down on first contact more often than not.


No, he didn't: He got stood up at the 1 and Franklin came in from behind to push him in (which I guess makes up for blowing the block that got Hillman stood up at the 1 in the first place.)

Hillman sees the holes (when they're there) and does a good job finding cut back lanes when they're not, provided our line doesn't let half the D through to gang tackle him at the snap; he's a good change-of-pace scatback. But Thompson ALSO has at least a decent eye and makes good cutbacks yet regularly breaks tackles the way Hillman rarely does (I concede he broke a couple tonight.) On one of Hillmans long runs (inside, likely pretty much ALL our long runs; fortunately, we ran inside a lot tonight) the tacklers arrived short of the marker and a couple linemen had to push him forward to get the first.

As long as Hillman's getting it done, leave him in, but I think once Thompson's had time to learn the offense better and develop even better vision he'll be a MUCH better RB, and Hillman back to change-of-pace.

Couldn't help yourself...

You were wrong here too.

Hawgdriver
10-20-2014, 02:36 AM
He's scatbacking

You're scatposting.

ShaneFalco
10-20-2014, 02:39 AM
Hillman didnt truck anyone. It was Debo throwing him in the endzone.

That said, his misdirection run was pretty awesome.

Hawgdriver
10-20-2014, 02:40 AM
Hillman didnt truck anyone. It was Debo throwing him in the endzone.

That said, his misdirection run was pretty awesome.

Debo!

I'll have to rewatch, that wasn't my impression. Looked like his leg drive got him over the line and then the cavalry came.

Joel
10-20-2014, 02:44 AM
Hillman was definitely running hard, but without Franklin pushing him he doesn't get in on that play.
That's sure how I saw it. I found a vine of it, but for some reason it's only coming up a still for me, but the way I remember it from the initial play and the replay was that Hillman got the handoff and made it just past the line before a 49er stood him up (because Franklin somehow let Hillman get ahead of him instead of blocking his guy) then Franklin came in to push BOTH of them into the end zone. http://www.highlighthub.com/ronnie-hillman-scores-second-td-against-49ers-on-snf-vine/