Broncos' Elway felt McManus better than Prater in long run

[Denver Native (Carol)]

While the decision to release Pro Bowl kicker Matt Prater and keep Brandon McManus has been hotly debated among Broncos fans, general manager John Elway didn't seem to have much difficulty making it.

"Long term we felt Brandon gave us the best chance," Elway said before Sunday's game.

Elway wouldn't elaborate but it appears the decision came down to an issue of not trusting Prater, and believing McManus is a bona fide talent.

AND


"My plant foot got a little deeper than you want," McManus said about the kicks he hooked. "But overall I was happy with my performance. To me if I bank 'em off the upright I could care less. As long as it goes in."

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_26668528/broncos-elway-felt-mcmanus-better-than-prater-long

[Bronco9798]

If it comes back to bite his ass in the playoffs, he'll take a lot of heat from the fans and the media. But I'm sure that doesn't bother him.

[Simple Jaded]

if Prater was actually in a treatment center this week I'm not so sure keeping him wouldn't have come back to bite them in the ass.

[Bronco9798]

if Prater was actually in a treatment center this week I'm not so sure keeping him wouldn't have come back to bite them in the ass.

There's always that chance. Von is on that leash as well. Personally, and it's just me, I keep Prater and take that chance. I know what he can do. I'm not feeling good taking a rookie kicker into the playoffs. Again, that's just me. I'm getting Prater sober, he's in my office, and we're having a long talk and I get him through the season however I can. And then he kicks in the post season.

[NightTerror218]

There's always that chance. Von is on that leash as well. Personally, and it's just me, I keep Prater and take that chance. I know what he can do. I'm not feeling good taking a rookie kicker into the playoffs. Again, that's just me. I'm getting Prater sober, he's in my office, and we're having a long talk and I get him through the season however I can. And then he kicks in the post season.

Well that means they will have to be more aggressive with Manning if McManus is not kicking well. Or they may punt more

[DenBronx]

Yeah Prater was a badass at kicker. Why not just finish out the year with the guy though?

[CrazyHorse]

I think McManus might have a stronger leg. He also has the versatility to punt. It will be hard to match the best percentage for FG's from over 50 yards though.

[BroncoJoe]

It was just a couple years ago Prater had an off season. He was remarkable last year, but I'm going to give the new kid a chance.

[Hawgdriver]

I wanted to cut Prater after year 1, but that would have been unwise. Patience.

[Bronco9798]

I hope he has a hall of fame career. He's a Bronco, I support them all. We will be in the playoffs. Could be a game winning FG he lines up for from 53....................to be continued!! lol......It scares me.....

[Joel]

Prater could kick right now, but who knows what'll happen between now and the playoffs: I'd hate to be audtioning a new kicker in December or January, and going with McManus now gives us and him time to settle into a rhythm and work out all the bugs. Still, missing a 52 yarder in Denver's like missing a 45 yarder everywhere else, and donging it off the uprights from <30 is NOT a good thing, even if we got a lucky bounce. Dude almost missed a PAT, for Petes sake: My WIFE can hit those—and she'd never even SEEN a football before three years ago!

McManus has great range, but playing half his games in Denver diminished the importance of that; left-footed or not, I'd still rather have Håvard "never miss from any angle" Rugland (who also has nice range.) Then again, if Detroit has any sense at all (very debatable) they're ringing Ruglands phone off the hook right now.

[Bronco9798]

Prater could kick right now, but who knows what'll happen between now and the playoffs: I'd hate to be audtioning a new kicker in December or January, and going with McManus now gives us and him time to settle into a rhythm and work out all the bugs. Still, missing a 52 yarder in Denver's like missing a 45 yarder everywhere else, and donging it off the uprights from <30 is NOT a good thing, even if we got a lucky bounce. Dude almost missed a PAT, for Petes sake: My WIFE can hit those—and she'd never even SEEN a football before three years ago!

McManus has great range, but playing half his games in Denver diminished the importance of that; left-footed or not, I'd still rather have Håvard "never miss from any angle" Rugland (who also has nice range.) Then again, if Detroit has any sense at all (very debatable) they're ringing Ruglands phone off the hook right now.

I would still take my chances with Prater this year. I'm in the minority, but I would. I would get him back on the roster, sit him down, and do what I had to do to get him through the year. We're getting to the last few years with Peyton here and I'm taking what I know I have in Prater instead of a rookie kicker in the cold and facing a long FG to win the game. Again, that's me. I have a horrible feeling with this kid. His FG kicks weren't very good yesterday.

[BroncoJoe]

I would still take my chances with Prater this year. I'm in the minority, but I would. I would get him back on the roster, sit him down, and do what I had to do to get him through the year. We're getting to the last few years with Peyton here and I'm taking what I know I have in Prater instead of a rookie kicker in the cold and facing a long FG to win the game. Again, that's me. I have a horrible feeling with this kid. His FG kicks weren't very good yesterday.

Eh. He played college ball at Temple in Philly. It probably get's colder there than it does in Denver.

You all seem to forget in '11-12 season, Prater only made 76% of his kicks. His rookie season was even worse.

I'm OK with it.

[Bronco9798]

Eh. He played college ball at Temple in Philly. It probably get's colder there than it does in Denver.

You all seem to forget in '11-12 season, Prater only made 76% of his kicks. His rookie season was even worse.

I'm OK with it.

I like Prater in the clutch. I would like to see his stats on game winners, etc., Not missing a long one to end the half or missing one early. I also want to see his stats from 50+ I could look, but **** man, I'm retired. Too much work!! lol...

[Bronco9798]

He's made 80 kicks from 40+ over 7 years. never looked at attempts. 53 from 40+ and 27 from 50+

[Cugel]

If it comes back to bite his ass in the playoffs, he'll take a lot of heat from the fans and the media. But I'm sure that doesn't bother him.


Well, it sure bothers me. This is the first really STUPID FRIGGIN' decision I've seen John Elway make. On 104.3 the Fan they were debating this AM whether Elway had some secret inside information that Prater was facing more than a 4 game suspension and that maybe was the reason.

Because it's totally stupid otherwise. You had the best kicker in football, and you release him because some journeyman scrub named Brandon McManus "has more potential." Are you insane? You are going to save MONEY? They're under the cap so who gives a damn about money? You're trying to win the S.B. Screw the money! They don't need to pay anybody an extra red cent until next year. What are they going to do with the money this year? Nothing!

Because that explanation is total B.S. You bring back Prater and see if he can stay clean for the rest of the year. If not, then you cut him and any scrub kicker off the street is about as good as McManus. Kickers looking for work in the NFL are a dime a dozen. There's clearly nothing special about Brandon McManus.

Kid has a good leg. On kickoffs. His range as we saw is about 43 yards. That 53 yard attempt had absolutely NO CHANCE at all. None. The second kick he made that clanked off the upright would have been no good from 1 yard further.

And this is supposed to inspire confidence? The Broncos better not attempt another FG this season longer than about 43 yards.

Here's how you handle this:


"Matt, did you run over a meter maid?"
"No."
"Ever Clock your girlfriend with a left hook like Mike Tyson dropping Michael Spinks in the first round?
"No."
"Did you brandish your gun at a policeman?"
"No."
How about beating the hell out of some kids?"
"No."
"Get caught at the airport with the "original whizzinator" in your bag?"
"No."
"Ever sell a large quantity of drugs to an undercover narc?"
"No."
"OK. We're good to go. Serve your sentence, and come on back. And if you screw up again and get suspended you're cut. Don't even bother showing up to the facility. We'll send you your stuff via Fed-Ex."

All are examples of conduct by former NFL players that did not get them perma-banned. [Randy Moss was the guy who ran over the meter maid because she wrote him a ticket and Onterio Smith got caught at the airport with fake junk for beating the drug test in his bag.]

[BroncoJoe]

Lol.

[GEM]

You act like this was Praters' first run in. He is in stage 3. He hasn't learned a lesson yet, what makes you think he's seen the light? :laugh:

Under the cap now....with major players up for contract in the next offseason. DT, JT, Franklin, and Von possibly. A couple mil under the cap isn't going to sign all of them. So they made a decision on a kicker who is one beer away from a year long suspension looking at $4mil next year.

Talking about the idiot kicker. :D

[Cugel]

You act like this was Praters' first run in. He is in stage 3. He hasn't learned a lesson yet, what makes you think he's seen the light? :laugh:

Under the cap now....with major players up for contract in the next offseason. DT, JT, Franklin, and Von possibly. A couple mil under the cap isn't going to sign all of them. So they made a decision on a kicker who is one beer away from a year long suspension looking at $4mil next year.

Talking about the idiot kicker. :D

Who cares what stage he's at? Seriously, I don't get people who say that.

Either he stays clean the rest of the season or not. If yes, you've got the best kicker in football. If not you pick up some scrub off the street who won't be any worse than Brandon McManus. Elway seems to think there's some risk that they'll lose McManus, and then Prater gets suspended again, and they have no kicker.

The flaw in that imbecilic logic is the supposition that they've got something special in Brandon McManus that you can't find any day of the week.

Well, we saw in this game exactly what they've got with McManus. A kid with a strong leg who sucks at kicking FGs and who will be a good bet to miss any attempt over 43 yards. With Prater he's virtually automatic at anything less than 53 yards.

Next year doesn't matter. "Long-term potential" doesn't matter worth a damn. They don't need the money till next season. They don't have to pay Prater $4 million THIS year! They could cut him after the season and find someone else if they wanted to. They'd have the entire off-season to find his replacement.

It's super-bowl or bust THIS year. And they just threw away the best kicker in the game for a rookie scrub kicker with "long term potential?"

Sorry. But, that's the definition of stupid. :mad:

[BroncoJoe]

LOL x 2

[Hawgdriver]

Who cares what stage he's at? Seriously, I don't get people who say that.

Either he stays clean the rest of the season or not. If yes, you've got the best kicker in football. If not you pick up some scrub off the street who won't be any worse than Brandon McManus. Elway seems to think there's some risk that they'll lose McManus, and then Prater gets suspended again, and they have no kicker.

The flaw in that imbecilic logic is the supposition that they've got something special in Brandon McManus that you can't find any day of the week.

Well, we saw in this game exactly what they've got with McManus. A kid with a strong leg who sucks at kicking FGs and who will be a good bet to miss any attempt over 43 yards. With Prater he's virtually automatic at anything less than 53 yards.

Next year doesn't matter. "Long-term potential" doesn't matter worth a damn. They don't need the money till next season. They don't have to pay Prater $4 million THIS year! They could cut him after the season and find someone else if they wanted to. They'd have the entire off-season to find his replacement.

It's super-bowl or bust THIS year. And they just threw away the best kicker in the game for a rookie scrub kicker with "long term potential?"

Sorry. But, that's the definition of stupid. :mad:

Come back after a few more games and a few more McManus sightings.

Incorporate in your argument the risk factor that Prater could get popped at the worst time during this important season. Is that really when you want to find your replacement?

Don't leave out the message it sends to the team, either. Both the "fly right" and the "clearing cap space to reward performers next year" carrots/sticks.

[weazel]

Broncos' Elway felt McManus better than Prater in long run

Too bad the Broncos aren't a team of marathon runners

[Cugel]

Come back after a few more games and a few more McManus sightings.

Incorporate in your argument the risk factor that Prater could get popped at the worst time during this important season. Is that really when you want to find your replacement?

Don't leave out the message it sends to the team, either. Both the "fly right" and the "clearing cap space to reward performers next year" carrots/sticks.

Arrrrrrrgh! I now have a headache from face-palming so hard.

"Fly right?" "Clearing cap space for NEXT year?"

I'm really trying to say this as nicely as I can without using swear words here.

Do you really not understand that it makes not one freakin' bit of difference THIS year about cap space NEXT year? You don't want to pay Prater $4 million NEXT year you cut him NEXT year, not now! They don't need to "free cap space" now. Their budget is locked in and there's nothing to spend the extra money on now. Next year is next year!

Who cares if Prater is "popped" during this season? It's a KICKER. This is NOT like trying to find a regular rotation player during the season. Try and find a LB during the season? Even if you find one, and he's good and he's kept in shape he won't be in football shape. He won't know the plays. He won't be ready to fit in with the defense, etc., etc. Very tough.

So with real players you make long term decisions. If we're not going to keep this player, maybe we get his replacement in there now and get him some experience. And get some cap room for next year.

But this is a KICKER. They're a dime a dozen. They sit around practicing on their local high school field making kicks until their phone rings. They don't have to "fit in with the team" or "learn the play-book." Guy takes two steps and kicks the damn ball. That's it.

We've seen McManus. He's nothing special. We'll be lucky if he's even barely adequate. They can find someone as good as him any day of the week.

Do you think that Prater is going to have any trouble fitting in with whatever team signs him this week? Unless he's already done something that's going to keep him out for the season, and there's no evidence that he has, this is a stupid friggin' move.

[BroncoJoe]

If kickers are "a dime a dozen" why the hell are you so upset then?

Good grief.

[slim]

I guess I didn't realize a rookie could be considered a journeyman scrub :noidea:

[Hawgdriver]

Arrrrrrrgh! I now have a headache from face-palming so hard.

Stop hitting yourself?

[Timmy!]

Prater as a rookie: 25/34.......

[BroncoJoe]

Prater as a rookie: 25/34.......

19 of 25 in 2011.

1 for 4 in his first season with the Falcons (preseason).

[BroncoJoe]

19 of 25 in 2011.

1 for 4 in his first season with the Falcons (preseason).

Just to be clear, I'm sad Prater isn't with us anymore but it was his own doing. I'm all in with the new guy until he shows me he's not an NFL kicker.

Missing one from 50+ isn't enough for me to go all Cugel.

[Hawgdriver]

Do you really not understand that it makes not one freakin' bit of difference THIS year about cap space NEXT year? You don't want to pay Prater $4 million NEXT year you cut him NEXT year, not now! They don't need to "free cap space" now. Their budget is locked in and there's nothing to spend the extra money on now. Next year is next year!

I do not understand that it makes no difference this year about cap space next year. Is this the final year of the Broncos? I admire your jaw-dropping understanding of player contract management. It is stunning to witness how conversant you are with the subtleties of the salary cap and negotiating player contracts.

[Bronco9798]

Prater also had 4 game winning kicks in 2011, the year that keeps getting the attention of his distractors (my dear friend Joe). He was 25 for 26 last year, including the 64 yarder. I think thats the season that should be getting the attention.

Prater made 141 of 170 field-goal attempts in 96 regular-season games for the Broncos from 2007 to 2013 and missed only two extra-point attempts during his tenure, making him one of the NFL’s best — and most clutch — kickers.

[Timmy!]

Just to be clear, I'm sad Prater isn't with us anymore but it was his own doing. I'm all in with the new guy until he shows me he's not an NFL kicker.

Missing one from 50+ isn't enough for me to go all Cugel.

Same. I liked Prater but I certainly understand the move. Prater was also missing kicks in preseason this year, and if you look at his yearly stats he was far from perfect. Do I think he is currently a better kicker than the rookie? Probably. Am I ready say the rookie is horrible after a shaky day? Well....he is 5/6 on the year and gets touchbacks constantly so I will hold off a bit.

[Hawgdriver]

Prater also had 4 game winning kicks in 2011, the year that keeps getting the attention of his distractors (my dear friend Joe). He was 25 for 26 last year, including the 64 yarder. I think thats the season that should be getting the attention.

Prater made 141 of 170 field-goal attempts in 96 regular-season games for the Broncos from 2007 to 2013 and missed only two extra-point attempts during his tenure, making him one of the NFL’s best — and most clutch — kickers.

Yeah, I'm going to miss him too.

[Joel]

Come back after a few more games and a few more McManus sightings.

Incorporate in your argument the risk factor that Prater could get popped at the worst time during this important season. Is that really when you want to find your replacement?

Don't leave out the message it sends to the team, either. Both the "fly right" and the "clearing cap space to reward performers next year" carrots/sticks.
That's a lot of it for me: It's a Sword of Damocles we can't afford to leave hanging over our notoriously unfocussed SB teams head the rest of the season. I'd still rather have Ruglands uncanny accuracy than McManus' power, especially with half our games (and hopefully all our pre-SB games) in Mile Highs thin air. It's not like Ruglands leg is WEAK, but place kickers are all about consistent accuracy, and that's been a knock on McManus since college: So far, it doesn't look improved in games. He nearly missed a PAT, for Petes sake!

[pnbronco]

There's always that chance. Von is on that leash as well. Personally, and it's just me, I keep Prater and take that chance. I know what he can do. I'm not feeling good taking a rookie kicker into the playoffs. Again, that's just me. I'm getting Prater sober, he's in my office, and we're having a long talk and I get him through the season however I can. And then he kicks in the post season.

I'm with you too 9798....I like what I've seen from Prater and if he did go into a treatment center that gives me more reason to keep him. It's tells me that he understands that he has a problem with alcohol and that it's not just about a beer here and there. I'm not sure how the league feels about Antabuse, but if it's a option given what he is going through, then add that to his requirements to be with the team. Even if he can't have Antabuse I really believe he understands just how quickly he can loose it all with one tiny mistake in the future.

Our time to win it all is closing very, very quickly and IMO Prater is one of the top 5 kicker in the league, so I would want the best I can have at that position. Also I knew he had made a bunch of points for us, but according to: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/career-scoring.htm he is in 3rd place of all time points scored with 682 points in 5 years and Turner had 742 om 8 years for 2nd place. So I just want to best that we can afford this year and I feel like Matt was that guy.

[Bronco9798]

I'm with you too 9798....I like what I've seen from Prater and if he did go into a treatment center that gives me more reason to keep him. It's tells me that he understands that he has a problem with alcohol and that it's not just about a beer here and there. I'm not sure how the league feels about Antabuse, but if it's a option given what he is going through, then add that to his requirements to be with the team. Even if he can't have Antabuse I really believe he understands just how quickly he can loose it all with one tiny mistake in the future.

Our time to win it all is closing very, very quickly and IMO Prater is one of the top 5 kicker in the league, so I would want the best I can have at that position. Also I knew he had made a bunch of points for us, but according to: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/career-scoring.htm he is in 3rd place of all time points scored with 682 points in 5 years and Turner had 742 om 8 years for 2nd place. So I just want to best that we can afford this year and I feel like Matt was that guy.


We seem to be in the minority. It all comes down to this with me. You are considered a Super Bowl contender. You have the best QB of all time at QB, you have a great receiving corp, you have a top notch defense and you have a rookie FG kicker. Kickers score points. Kickers can win/lose a game. Kickers can play a huge role in determining how far you advance, Kickers are a really important part of the team. I'm doing everything I can to get Prater on the right track and I'm riding him all the way. He's been in tight games. He has won games for us. He's been in tough situations. I'm keeping him. If we were a lousy team with no expectations, ok. But we're not. We'll see. i hope the kid does great. I really do cause he's a Bronco. i don't want him to fail just because I like Prater better. I want another Super Bowl, but this one decision could cost us that opportunity.

[Slick]

It's not like the playoffs start tomorrow. McManus has 12 weeks to tighten it up. I'm just not that worried about it.

[BroncoJoe]

We seem to be in the minority. It all comes down to this with me. You are considered a Super Bowl contender. You have the best QB of all time at QB, you have a great receiving corp, you have a top notch defense and you have a rookie FG kicker. Kickers score points. Kickers can win/lose a game. Kickers can play a huge role in determining how far you advance, Kickers are a really important part of the team. I'm doing everything I can to get Prater on the right track and I'm riding him all the way. He's been in tight games. He has won games for us. He's been in tough situations. I'm keeping him. If we were a lousy team with no expectations, ok. But we're not. We'll see. i hope the kid does great. I really do cause he's a Bronco. i don't want him to fail just because I like Prater better. I want another Super Bowl, but this one decision could cost us that opportunity.

Key word there. I'm comfortable taking a wait and see attitude. Love Prater, but only an idiot would jeopardize his career and that of his teammates. Thus the old saying, "idiot kicker".

[Bronco9798]

Key word there. I'm comfortable taking a wait and see attitude. Love Prater, but only an idiot would jeopardize his career and that of his teammates. Thus the old saying, "idiot kicker".

I hear you man. :-) I hope the guy does great! I really do. We are going to need him this year. That's a fact, true? I'm a Bronco fan, I want him to do great. Just not feeling it at crunch time from 50+. I'm not talking shorties now. Just talking a long FG over 45+ that we need. We'll see. As he starts hitting them consistently than I'll go along with you all. Just not now!

[Elevation inc]

risky call, I get why and while I love Elway, B.S. on the it was a football decision. Prater is one of the most clutch kickers the NFL has seen in years. Nothing had changed other than his off field issues which we clearly weren't going to tolerate anymore.....McManus has potential but lets not really forget how bad ass and clutch prater was. I wish him the best in what will probably be his new home Detroit...lol

[Joel]

As Vic Lombardi (IIRC) noted, Praters off field issues are part of the football decision. So far, Goodell hasn't followed through on his threat to penalize TEAMS for persistent player misbehavior, but the stakes are rising with the frequency and severity of legal troubles. The NFL spin machine's still second to none; it took several days of tearful tributes to Rob Bironas and friends calling his reported behavior atypical before I saw a brief backpage mention that his BAC was almost THRICE the legal limit—but that damage control is becoming more the exception than the rule, because the NFLs credibility's wearing thin.

Elway judged McManus the best alternative to a guy who's had 2 DUIs and then got caught violating his abstinence agreement—but SOME alternative was necessary so the Praters risks didn't hover over a SB team the whole rest of the season as the clock keeps ticking for Manning and all the Pro Bowlers in the final year of cheap rookie contracts that will balloon next year. It sucks, and McManus could still bite us in the butt (e.g. Gary Anderson was a HoF level kicker, but his NFCCG miss cost his team a SB trip) but Prater forced us into the situation and forced our hand.

[Joker56]

So in 7 years he made about 10 million dollars,correct ?
And picked up 2 Dui's,correct ?
How the hell you have to drive drunk,when you got all that $$$ ?
How stupid was that ?
Get drunk all you want,and get driven home.
So,freaking simple !!!

[GEM]

Arrrrrrrgh! I now have a headache from face-palming so hard.

"Fly right?" "Clearing cap space for NEXT year?"

I'm really trying to say this as nicely as I can without using swear words here.

Do you really not understand that it makes not one freakin' bit of difference THIS year about cap space NEXT year? You don't want to pay Prater $4 million NEXT year you cut him NEXT year, not now! They don't need to "free cap space" now. Their budget is locked in and there's nothing to spend the extra money on now. Next year is next year!

Who cares if Prater is "popped" during this season? It's a KICKER. This is NOT like trying to find a regular rotation player during the season. Try and find a LB during the season? Even if you find one, and he's good and he's kept in shape he won't be in football shape. He won't know the plays. He won't be ready to fit in with the defense, etc., etc. Very tough.

So with real players you make long term decisions. If we're not going to keep this player, maybe we get his replacement in there now and get him some experience. And get some cap room for next year.

But this is a KICKER. They're a dime a dozen. They sit around practicing on their local high school field making kicks until their phone rings. They don't have to "fit in with the team" or "learn the play-book." Guy takes two steps and kicks the damn ball. That's it.

We've seen McManus. He's nothing special. We'll be lucky if he's even barely adequate. They can find someone as good as him any day of the week.

Do you think that Prater is going to have any trouble fitting in with whatever team signs him this week? Unless he's already done something that's going to keep him out for the season, and there's no evidence that he has, this is a stupid friggin' move.

I forgot we were blessed with the oh so intelligent Cugel. :rolleyes: How about having football conversation but leave out the condescending douchenozzle schtick.

[GEM]

So in 7 years he made about 10 million dollars,correct ?
And picked up 2 Dui's,correct ?
How the hell you have to drive drunk,when you got all that $$$ ?
How stupid was that ?
Get drunk all you want,and get driven home.
So,freaking simple !!!

Especially when all NFL teams have drivers solely for the purpose of keeping players out of trouble.

[Simple Jaded]

I forgot we were blessed with the oh so intelligent Cugel. :rolleyes: How about having football conversation but leave out the condescending douchenozzle schtick.

The Broncos can roll the cap savings from cutting Prater into next years cap, I think, when they have a lot of contract issues to solve. They're gonna need all the cap space they can get.

Who wants to tell the condescending douchenozzle?

[Hawgdriver]

The Broncos can roll the cap savings from cutting Prater into next years cap, I think, when they have a lot of contract issues to solve. They're gonna need all the cap space they can get.

Who wants to tell the condescending douchenozzle?

That's not how it works dude, he tells you.

[GEM]

I did, he put his pompous hat on.

[GEM]

I almost pictured his arms crossed against his chest, kicking his feet screaming, "my opinion is right! Yours is wrong because you're just a stupid dummy and I'm so smart!!! Elway knows nothing in comparison, he just has buck teeth and his brain is a million times smaller than my magnificent specimen!"

[Simple Jaded]

Well, at least he didn't use swear words, that must've been painful.

Btw, if kickers are a dime a dozen why are we being lectured about how friggin stupid this move is?

[sneakers]

lol People doubting Elway

O ye of little faith

[Joel]

The Broncos can roll the cap savings from cutting Prater into next years cap, I think, when they have a lot of contract issues to solve. They're gonna need all the cap space they can get.

Who wants to tell the condescending douchenozzle?
To be fair, there's practically NO cap "savings" to roll into next year, because releasing Prater accelerates the rest of his signing bonus to the tune of $2 million, and we can't pay McManus less than the rookie minimum. So instead of being on the hook for $3 million this year we're "only" on the hook for just under $2.5 (unless we pay McManus more than minimum.) So in that sense he's right, but going the rest of the season and postseason holding our breath hoping Prater doesn't pop again and force us to find a new kicker ANYWAY is just an unjustifiable risk.

The reality is there were big potential down sides to releasing OR keeping Prater; it could cost us a SB either way. Eways evidently felt releasing Prater was the lesser overall risk in terms of likelihood and severity of getting burned, and that's hard to deny. At the start of the season we have more alternatives and time to smooth the rough edges off a new kicker; by January there'll be few other options and mere days to get any of them in shape before the next playoff game.

[Simple Jaded]

$800.000 and change in dead money, the rest is cap space.

[Joel]

$800.000 and change in dead money, the rest is cap space.
I thought signing bonuses were prorated throughout contracts, but everything left accelerated to the current year if a guy got cut? Praters bonus was $4 million on a 4 year contract, so that's $1 million/year: He was in the 3rd year, so that should leave $2 million in dead money now, plus whatever we pay McManus (rookie minimum's $420,000 this year.)

[Cugel]

If kickers are "a dime a dozen" why the hell are you so upset then?

Good grief.

Because ELITE kickers are NOT a dime a dozen of course!

Just average kickers like McManus. So, if they lose McManus during the season, no problem. Just call the agent for some guy who's hanging out practicing at his local high school. 2 days later he's kicking in the NFL. What's the difference? He's a KICKER! They're NOT real football players.

Where Elway is wrong is in thinking they have something special with McManus. They clearly don't. If he clears up whatever mechanical problems he had, then he'll be average. Which means he'll have a decent chance to kick a 48 yard FG. Sometimes he'll make it and sometimes it will be wide right.

[Northman]

Because ELITE kickers are NOT a dime a dozen of course!

Just average kickers like McManus. So, if they lose McManus during the season, no problem. Just call the agent for some guy who's hanging out practicing at his local high school. 2 days later he's kicking in the NFL. What's the difference? He's a KICKER! They're NOT real football players.

Where Elway is wrong is in thinking they have something special with McManus. They clearly don't. If he clears up whatever mechanical problems he had, then he'll be average. Which means he'll have a decent chance to kick a 48 yard FG. Sometimes he'll make it and sometimes it will be wide right.

You should write Bowlen and tell him to fire JE and hire you. You have all the answers.

[Cugel]

I thought signing bonuses were prorated throughout contracts, but everything left accelerated to the current year if a guy got cut? Praters bonus was $4 million on a 4 year contract, so that's $1 million/year: He was in the 3rd year, so that should leave $2 million in dead money now, plus whatever we pay McManus (rookie minimum's $420,000 this year.)

I don't think current salary gets accelerated against the cap unless it's guaranteed? But, it should be guaranteed by now, that the season started, yes? So, something doesn't add up. My guess is that they don't accelerate salary against the cap, so you can cut a guy mid-season without cap repercussions?

[Cugel]

You should write Bowlen and tell him to fire JE and hire you. You have all the answers.

Some things are just obvious. Like the sound CLAAANG!

Don't have to be an "expert" to have an opinion Captain Obvious. So, you can come down off your soap box telling us "Elway said it so it must be true!" Sometimes he screws up, like he did in a couple of draft moves. It happens.

[Northman]

Some things are just obvious. Like the sound CLAAANG!

Don't have to be an "expert" to have an opinion Captain Obvious. So, you can come down off your soap box telling us "Elway said it so it must be true!" Sometimes he screws up, like he did in a couple of draft moves. It happens.

Problem with your argument is we dont know if he screwed up. Contrary to your mythical imagination Matt Prater missed FG's throughout his career too, some even less than 40 yds. So really, your overreacting to something that we have no idea of how it will play out in the end. Its just silly to me to get this worked up over something that,

1) You dont have any control over anyway.

2) McManus could very well pan out nicely for us.

To judge McManus based off a handful of games (in which he is nowhere close to being as bad as the guy the Lions had last week) is a bit premature.

Your right, you dont have to be an expert to have an opinion, but when you constantly put yourself out there by trying to claim things as fact it makes you look like a complete moron. How bout you let it play out before slitting your wrists?

[BroncoJoe]

I'm guessing Cugel never saw Prater bank one in?

Like I said before. This may have been his first weekend watching football.

[TXBRONC]

Because ELITE kickers are NOT a dime a dozen of course!

Just average kickers like McManus. So, if they lose McManus during the season, no problem. Just call the agent for some guy who's hanging out practicing at his local high school. 2 days later he's kicking in the NFL. What's the difference? He's a KICKER! They're NOT real football players.

Where Elway is wrong is in thinking they have something special with McManus. They clearly don't. If he clears up whatever mechanical problems he had, then he'll be average. Which means he'll have a decent chance to kick a 48 yard FG. Sometimes he'll make it and sometimes it will be wide right.

You do know that in 2011 Prater made only 3 of 7 field goals from 40-49 yards. and that he missed a crucial field goal attempt in the 2012 divisional playoff game against the Ravens. How do you know that even if McManus clears up mechanical issues he'll only be average? Going by your standards Prater should have been bounced out the NFL after his rookie season. He only made 1 freaking field goal in four attempts with Falcons in '07. Even though Prater is good kicker it's easier to replace him than it is Peyton Manning or Von Miller.

[Ravage!!!]

Because ELITE kickers are NOT a dime a dozen of course!

Just average kickers like McManus. So, if they lose McManus during the season, no problem. Just call the agent for some guy who's hanging out practicing at his local high school. 2 days later he's kicking in the NFL. What's the difference? He's a KICKER! They're NOT real football players.

Where Elway is wrong is in thinking they have something special with McManus. They clearly don't. If he clears up whatever mechanical problems he had, then he'll be average. Which means he'll have a decent chance to kick a 48 yard FG. Sometimes he'll make it and sometimes it will be wide right.

Wait.. what is so "clear" about it, because he missed that kick? Weren't you one screaming to cut Prater his rookie year?

[Hawgdriver]

Wait.. what is so "clear" about it, because he missed that kick? Weren't you one screaming to cut Prater his rookie year?

I know I was :lol:. Who knew I could be wrong? It was a shock to the system to discover this.

[Joel]

I don't think current salary gets accelerated against the cap unless it's guaranteed? But, it should be guaranteed by now, that the season started, yes? So, something doesn't add up. My guess is that they don't accelerate salary against the cap, so you can cut a guy mid-season without cap repercussions?
Right, but Praters $4 million signing bonus IS guaranteed because he got every dime of it 2 years ago (that's the point of a signing bonus after all.) The cap charge was evenly split over his 4 year contract, but he's only finished half of that, so cutting him hits our cap for the all the rest now: Instead of our cap hit being $2 million base salary for 2013 plus the annual $1 million prorated bonus hit, it's the full unamortized $2 million bonus plus whatever we pay McManus (rookie minimum is $420,000.) Best case is $580,000 savings in 2014, negligible by NFL standards.

It's a huge difference in 2015, because there's no $1 million prorated bonus hit nor $3 million more in base salary, but I believe we could've weaseled out of all but the remaining signing bonus by cutting him any time before June. This had practically NOTHING to do with money and EVERYTHING to do with Praters drinking history that'll end his season if he's caught again. Elway doesn't want to go the rest of the season and all the way to the SB wondering about his kicker, and—for good or ill—we should know what we've got with McManus by Thanksgiving.

Theoretically, there's even plenty of time to try McManus in games, have him bomb and replace him with the first bum we find in the nearest alley (where's Neal Cassady when Denver needs him? :tongue:) and still know what we've got headed into the playoffs. With Prater we'd always wonder if his demons would have him bounce his foot off the ground in ANOTHER playoff game, or cause a positive test that left us scrambling for whatever we could find at the last minute before he had to kickoff in the Super Bowl. No, thanks.

[Joel]

there was a good Cowboys blog piece about this last preseason (unfortunately for Dallas, Jerry didn't read it. :tongue:) http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/2/23/4017138/salary-cap-101-proration-amortization-cap-hits-dead-money-and-more

According to Rotoworld, we were paying Prater $13 million over 4 years with $4.25 guaranteed, $3 million as a signing bonus (not sure how/when the difference between those last two is charged.) This years share was $3 million even, next years $3.25, so next years charge is gone, but at the cost of all uncharged bonus money accelerating to now.

[Simple Jaded]

Klis said $800.000 and change on radio, Dick-smack and Big Al too. Whatev's.

[Joel]

Klis said $800.000 and change on radio, Dick-smack and Big Al too. Whatev's.
Don't see how that's mathematically possible; even if we're just talking about the signing bonus, is should be split into a $750,000 cap hit each of 4 years, and 2 were left, so that's $1.5 million. Plus however the other $1.25 million of guaranteed money counts (unless we already ate that in 2012 or 2013.) Plus a minimum of $420,000 for McManus. The difference between that and the $3 million cap hit we WERE looking at before cutting Prater is pretty small.

Think of it this way: All the bonus cap hit for THIS year is still there, plus the bonus cap hit for NEXT year that accelerated to now because we cut Prater. No way that's $800,000.

[Simple Jaded]

I know how it works.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/

Perhaps this is where they're getting that number.

Btw, since Prater was released after June 1st his bonus money is split between 2014 and 2015.

[NightTerror218]

Prater was not solid until the last couple Years ago. He had a rocky start at beginning of his career as a young kicker. You have no idea the type of kicker McManus will be after a few games. He has only missed from 50+ and banked one in from what 40+. Not too bad.

[Joel]

I know how it works.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/

Perhaps this is where they're getting that number.

Btw, since Prater was released after June 1st his bonus money is split between 2014 and 2015.
That's a good point, because it means no change for the bonus: What's left is split over this year and next, same as before, so we only save base salary both years. That may explain the difference: I don't know how the $1.25 million in non-bonus guarantees work, but the only way to GUARANTEE money is to have it in hand. If Prater got that other $1.25 million (and we got its cap hit) in 2012, that left only the $3 million signing bonus since. 3 million/4=750k/yr, pretty close to the 812k Spotrac cites for this year (and presumably NEXT year.) Maybe the difference is injury guarantees?

[Bronco9798]

Prater was not solid until the last couple Years ago. He had a rocky start at beginning of his career as a young kicker. You have no idea the type of kicker McManus will be after a few games. He has only missed from 50+ and banked one in from what 40+. Not too bad.

It's just too bad we have to see how good a kicker can be on a team like this though. A FG kicker can determine how far you advance in the playoffs. This team is solid with experience at most positions and, in my opinion, this is a terrible time to take a rookie FG kicker into the playoffs. I personally would feel more comfortable with a veteran and solid kicker like Prater. Again, he's a Bronco and I'm pulling for him like any other player. I hope he excels and does great.

[Joel]

It's just too bad we have to see how good a kicker can be on a team like this though. A FG kicker can determine how far you advance in the playoffs. This team is solid with experience at most positions and, in my opinion, this is a terrible time to take a rookie FG kicker into the playoffs.
It sucks we're in that situation, but Prater put us there, and there's no guarantee keeping him would've avoided it. Championship teams can't afford to offer even kickers fourth chances.

[Simple Jaded]

The other bonuses might've been roster bonuses or workout bonuses, which of course, are not gauranteed.

[Joel]

The other bonuses might've been roster bonuses or workout bonuses, which of course, are not gauranteed.
Rotoworld says,
The deal contains $4.25 million guaranteed, including a $3 million signing bonus.... http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4502/matt-praterMaybe they mispoke, but otherwise "guaranteed" means "guaranteed" whatever the form. Regardless, $3 million/4=$750k=/=$812k, so at least $¼ million's guaranteed SOMEHOW (but NOT by signing bonus.)