Montee Ball: Run game 'needs a lot of work'

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- The numbers posted by the Broncos' running game are disappointing through three weeks. The Broncos are 30th in yardage per carry, 28th in rushing yardage per game and 23rd in percentage of carries that moved the sticks.

Those statistics don't reveal the process, but they are the results. And none of those rankings can be pinned on one running back or one blocker.

“Right now, we need a lot of work in it," said running back Montee Ball. "It starts up front, it starts with the tight ends, and especially with the running backs too. Collectively, we all need to sit down and really focus on it. And we will."

rest - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Montee-Ball-Run-game-needs-a-lot-of-work/0c64af10-10a2-422b-9885-7303c78980f0

[Hawgdriver]

According to ProFootballFocus.com, just two of 15 running backs with more than 40 attempts have a higher percentage of their yards coming after contact than Ball. There's nothing wrong with that -- if the contact comes as Ball approaches the second level. But on 20 carries this year and seven in Seattle, that was not the case.

Defenders have poured into the backfield from all angles: outside the tackles, inside against the guards, and through the A-gap. If the Broncos can't find a way to prevent this, their ground game will continue to struggle, and effective offensive balance will remain an elusive goal.

I like articles like this that just lay out the facts and let the observer make conclusions.

[Hawgdriver]

Oh, and this I found troubling:


Defenders have poured into the backfield from all angles . . . through the A-gap.

Does that disturb anyone else?

nut?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD — It's a new NFL for offensive linemen in which pass protection is a higher priority than run blocking.

Yet, the running game remains the function that tugs on a blocker's pride.

"Yeah, well, we're not too prideful right now," said Louis Vasquez, the Broncos' all-pro right guard.

rest - http://www.dailycamera.com/sports/ci_26585719/broncos-big-guys-receive-little-grades

[tomjonesrocks]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.

[Hawgdriver]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.

His RB is ranked #2 of 15 in yards after contact. That contradicts your point.

Well, one of his RBs.

[CCMO]

Without better play calling that is not anticipated by defense and without much improved line run blocking, I will have nothing bad to say about Ball or our other backs.....EXCEPT ONE THING FOR BALL! Hold on to the damn ball! Fumbles are unforgivable, especially when playing top teams!

[Slick]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.

You don't think the offensive line had anything to do with Ball's performance on Sunday?

I don't think Terrell Davis, Barry Sanders or Walter Payton would have done much better under those conditions.

He showed life in the last 8 games or so last season. He needs to do a better job at taking care of the football and the line needs to get better. I think they will as the season goes on.

[Ravage!!!]

The choices as to WHEN to run have been perplexing. 3rd and 9.. 3rd and 10, and Manning is calling the draw/run....and its getting stuffed. THe OL hasn't helped at all on the run. Ball hasn't looked bad at all (plus, no one EXPECTS anyone to be the next TD until they can prove taht on the field).

[BroncoNut]

Oh, and this I found troubling:



Does that disturb anyone else?

nut?

and here I thought it meant a dog's ass. go figure

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Our run game seems to develop two slowly, IMO. It's like a jab, only telegraphed like a haymaker. Maybe it's just too obvious what Manning is doing with the ball. It wouldn't hurt if we took more snaps under center.

[slim]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.

Ball is not the problem.

[silkamilkamonico]

The fact that even us can see when they are running doesn't give me too much confidence on the IQ of our offense led by arguably one of the GOAT and a future head coach in Gase.

I remember people saying how great our offense was going to be when Manning came because we "already had an oline that could run block".


I personally we should completely abandon the run and just go 5 wide at all times.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

A little while ago, Scott Hastings & Drew Goodman were talking about the running game on thefan. Scott said that Vic Lombardi came up with the following stat - "the Broncos have run the ball 63 times this year, and out of those 63 times, the running back has been hit behind the line of scrimmage 25 times.

[G_Money]

Play-action worked well against the Colts, and the Chiefs to some extent. Our problem is with ACTUAL running. I'm not really sure why teams are selling out to stop the run - we're not that good at it and PFM is a little bit better at throwing the ball. You'd think they'd want to make us chew up clock and plays getting downfield.

As Mo was saying the other day, I'd rather see us power block for the run game rather that try to stretch it out, especially when we're trying to kill clock. We aren't getting movement behind the three strong interior linemen we have, though. Whether that's a matter of unit cohesion (aka "gel") or simply losing individual battles I couldn't say. I will say that Orlando Franklin should not be losing strength battles to anyone.

I can't put the running issues on the running backs at this point. Bad playcalls have hurt us, and lack of running lanes hasn't made it any easier. We're averaging 3.2 ypc, though, and that's with some bigger individual runs in the first couple halves of games. When the hole is there, the backs have done their job. They're not getting driven back one-on-one in the hole, or failing to run AT the hole as some previous backs have been known to do.

But Ball and Anderson are between-the-tackles guys, not around-the-edge ones. If we wanna throw em off, feel free to run an OUTSIDE draw occasionally (if you must call draw plays). Otherwise, we'd better find a way to crack open a gap. If that means using a TE (Green or another) or an OL as a fullback, fine. Manning won't like it, but if you wanna see Sanders run for a TD, try a play fake off THAT formation.

But then, we try not to be creative formationally. If it looks like a run play, it probably is. And it probably won't go all that far if we're TRYING to pound the ball. I'm glad we have a bye week now to look it over, and the rest of the season to work on it. If we have a lead in the playoffs I'd like to be able to chew up the other team, not spend all my time in 3-and-outs using inept cloud-of-dust running.

[BroncoNut]

I like articles like this that just lay out the facts and let the observer make conclusions.
I'm not sure it's all that factual though, ie, I think that Ware and Miller have maintained the edge pretty well, between the tackles and the Agap, certainly.

[BroncoNut]

The fact that even us can see when they are running doesn't give me too much confidence on the IQ of our offense led by arguably one of the GOAT and a future head coach in Gase.

I remember people saying how great our offense was going to be when Manning came because we "already had an oline that could run block".


I personally we should completely abandon the run and just go 5 wide at all times.

you are not serious. pretty funny though. how do you feel abpout the 2 TE set though, gotta like that. but that' s also part of the irony in the shitty run game we are seeing now. in any event, I'm bothering you, please... beg my pardon,... , enjoy the thread

[silkamilkamonico]

you are not serious. pretty funny though. how do you feel abpout the 2 TE set though, gotta like that. but that' s also part of the irony in the shitty run game we are seeing now. in any event, I'm bothering you, please... beg my pardon,... , enjoy the thread

I'm not serious - I just believe every time we run the ball it's a waste of a f'n down, literally. Hell, the only good run we had in Seattle was a fumble turnover. It's like running does absolutely nothing positive for us - ever.

[BroncoNut]

I'm not serious - I just believe every time we run the ball it's a waste of a f'n down, literally. Hell, the only good run we had in Seattle was a fumble turnover. It's like running does absolutely nothing positive for us - ever.

I agree with you and enjoy your rapier wit. I think you will agree with me when I say that we can expect more 3 and outs if this shit doesn't change. and if that's the case, we will lose games. enjoy your day

[Hawgdriver]

I'm not sure it's all that factual though, ie, I think that Ware and Miller have maintained the edge pretty well, between the tackles and the Agap, certainly.

Ok then, I like articles that lay out the facts and the some key fallacies and let the observer make conclusions.

[BroncoNut]

Ok then, I like articles that lay out the facts and the some key fallacies and let the observer make conclusions.

thank you, much better. just remember that nothing is purely objective. it's just not possible. kinda like separation of church and state.

[G_Money]

The Broncos are 30th in the league in yards per carry and 10th in net yards per pass attempt. I understand that running is important, especially near the goal line or in some short-yardage situations... but I certainly would rather pass to set up the run than vice versa. Our offenses have deflated in pretty much direct proportion to our determination to force the run. We seem to stop ourselves on offense, via penalties, drops and play-calling.

I expected to be 2-1, so the Broncos are on the path to the Super Bowl still in my head. ;-) But while I would like more balance in the offense, there's no sense forcing it when it's not working and/or we're inept.

[Hawgdriver]

I thought this was interesting.


There is a reasonably strong correlation between percentage of pass completions, and losing. Perhaps we should instead say what we knew all along– rush attempts are highly correlated with victory.

The 40 most extreme pass completion teams in this range, none of whom had more than 23 rushes:

9-31 record, 7.25 yards per attempt, 65.2% completions, 3.9% td rate, 2.8% int rate, 5.1% sack rate, 4.18 yards per carry

The 40 most extreme rush attempt teams, none of whom had more than 15 completions:

35-5 record, 6.39 yards per attempt, 55.2% completions, 4.9% td rate, 1.9% int rate, 7.7% sack rate, 4.84 yards per carry

Now, is that a good measure of offensive efficiency? The QB’s in the extreme rushing teams had a sub-par yards per attempt, completion rate, and sack rate, but likely benefitted from good field position and playing ahead, which is why the td rate is higher and the int rate lower.

The quarterbacks on the heavy pass attempt teams passed it better, and the int rate and sack rates were still better than average. The difference? The pass completion teams gave up 30.9 points. The rush attempt teams, 14.1.

http://thebiglead.com/2012/09/12/michael-lombardis-rush-attempts-plus-completions-magic-number-is-no-longer-magical/

[broncofaninfla]

I think the running game or lack there is somewhat telling on effective Gase is on setting a offensive game plan. The play calling is questionable and the execution is poor. Manning also seems to audible to running play that simply haven't worked so far this season. Coaches and players alike need to step it up.

[NightTerror218]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.

Seattle for lays close to line of scrimmage and covers the underneath. They are closer to make plays on running backs. Its not like we stretch the field very much.

[MOtorboat]

Too late now, but they should have left Franklin outside.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Too late now, but they should have left Franklin outside.

why?

[MOtorboat]

why?

Because he was better there.

[CrazyHorse]

Our pass blocking seems superb. Our run blocking is absolutely terrible. I don't think it's a lack of talent but rather scheme. Our running plays are extremely bland and predictable.

[chazoe60]

I never understood why we thought the plodding, unexplosive Ball would be the next TD anyway.

It's been worse than expected considering how much respect defenses have do gear up for the pass, and the blocking is an issue but Elway has dropped the ball at the RB position throughout his tenure.

It's disappointing.
Yeah because Ball should be breaking 2 to 3 tackles behind the LOS on every run. Good lord.

[DenBronx]

Hey we had a pretty good RB last season. What happened to him? :(

[CrazyHorse]

Hey we had a pretty good RB last season. What happened to him? :(

He went to Florida and hurt is elbow.

[Hawgdriver]

Our pass blocking seems superb. Our run blocking is absolutely terrible. I don't think it's a lack of talent but rather scheme. Our running plays are extremely bland and predictable.

I have to wonder if Gase (Martz disciple) and Manning are just too-pass oriented, and a little run-blind. Like every enlightened fan, I'm not asking for 3 yards and a cloud of Virgil Green brain particles. But I wonder if it's some sort of blind spot with these guys, and Fox has delegated too much to his offensive geniuses--who admittedly are freaking amazing at what they do.

[pnbronco]

You don't think the offensive line had anything to do with Ball's performance on Sunday?

I don't think Terrell Davis, Barry Sanders or Walter Payton would have done much better under those conditions.

He showed life in the last 8 games or so last season. He needs to do a better job at taking care of the football and the line needs to get better. I think they will as the season goes on.

Exactly.....I can't remember if the whole line got a F this game for the run game, but it was bad and I love those guys.... Even I could see they were not on the same page for Seattle. Bell does need to take care of the ball, but there is so much more to the run game than just Bell.

[Joel]

rest - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Montee-Ball-Run-game-needs-a-lot-of-work/0c64af10-10a2-422b-9885-7303c78980f0
Clearly, Montee Ball is not a REAL Broncos fan; I bet he REALLY likes some other team(s) better and just hangs around Denver to jump on the 43-8 bandwagon. :rolleyes:

[Joel]

His RB is ranked #2 of 15 in yards after contact. That contradicts your point.

Well, one of his RBs.
McGahee led the league in yards after contact when every Denver fan cheered him and booed Morenos "glass vage." It's not a new problem; it's just costing SBs now instead of playoff berths. The difference there is Manning, but Manning can't do it all on his own any more than Elway could, and the ZBS is largely illegal now: We need some road graders inside.


The fact that even us can see when they are running doesn't give me too much confidence on the IQ of our offense led by arguably one of the GOAT and a future head coach in Gase.

I remember people saying how great our offense was going to be when Manning came because we "already had an oline that could run block".
I remember that, too; I deserve a freakin' medal for not laughing out loud every time someone said it (which was often.) Some of it's probably formation, yeah, and it doesn't speak well of Gase that we have no formations out of which we run AND pass well (that's the whole point of having primary formations, right? So the D can't just read playcalls from formation?) But that "great" run blocking in years immediately before Manning had far more to do with runners who fought for extra yards when linemen let through defenders than with ACTUAL blocking.

I hoped it would get better when Gibbs came home, but so far it hasn't. I'm hoping against hope the current problem's simply that even SHUFFLING offensive linemen STILL alters the chemistry that's fragile for ANY line, and they'll find their footing over the bye. Franklin gives Clady and Ramirez a completely different set of strengths to trust and weakness to compensate for compared to Beadles, who had much better feet (as evidenced when he pulled for screens and outside runs) but far worse strength.

It's really hard to buy Foxs 2013 declaration Clark's "the NFLs best backup OT" though. He's similar to Franklin in that he stands up well to bull rushes but gets beat by quick fast edge-rushers, so one would think switching sides would help him since LDEs tend to be bigger and slower (to stop the strongside run) than RDEs (sprinting at the QBs blind side.) So far it hasn't happened though; he may be a bit better in pass protection (or maybe Manning just sees it coming when he's not) but he's not getting Franklinesque push on those LDEs.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not serious - I just believe every time we run the ball it's a waste of a f'n down, literally. Hell, the only good run we had in Seattle was a fumble turnover. It's like running does absolutely nothing positive for us - ever.

I wouldn't say doesn't do anything positive. Unfortunately it hasn't been consistent. I think it will get there it's just going to take some time.

[Joel]

I wouldn't say doesn't do anything positive. Unfortunately it hasn't been consistent. I think it will get there it's just going to take some time.
It shows the D we WILL run, and not rarely; unfortunately, until it's a consistent threat they can ignore that 2 yds/att "threat" and keep selling out on the first ballot HoFer passing to three All Pro receivers. Hopefully it's just a matter of chemistry disrupted by shuffling Franklin and Clark, and the experience of the last three games on top of preseason plus the bye week to reassess, regroup and rally will get them running like the well-oiled machine they should be. 'Cause if it doesn't, the trade deadline's fast approaching, we're tight on the cap and it's hard to win championships with one-dimensional offense.

[Bronco9798]

Ball has no explosion or burst out of the gate, he's slow. Maybe if he was a bit quicker to the line of scrimmage he could find a better seam to run through. Is it there and he's just doesn't have the burst to hit it before it closes? I don't know. Something isn't right and I don't think you can make him any quicker or explosive. Even when he gets past the LOS he needs a lot of open space to make yards, which he has had on his longer runs. However, he can't out run anybody. To much speed on Defenses in the NFL. He will never be an elite runner, He's just too slow and has no burst. I think Elway made a bad decision here. Just my opinion.

[G_Money]

I hate the term "gel" but if you remember our pass-blocking last year without Clady we were ROUGH for the first few weeks... and then Clark turned from a borderline backup into a better-paid part of the starting unit and we got it together. Franklin played guard in college, but he's not used to doing it next to his current teammates. A lot of OL play is repetition and knowing that when the DL stunt or a blitz happens that EVERYONE will know how to handle it together.

It's like a dance - takes time to figure out new dance partners, and right now there's a lot of toe-stepping.

I expect it to get better. Just a question of how much better, I guess: are we gonna stop at "serviceable" or can we work up to "dangerous"?

[Bronco9798]

We had the "Gel" discussion a few years back, I'm sure a few remember that. We'll have to wait and see if ball gets better if they get to clicking! I'm not too sure he will. You can't make him any quicker. Telling you, he has no burst. Dude's a turtle. let's see how it works once the line starts getting better.

[BroncoNut]

man, a lot of Ball bashing.

[G_Money]

Ball has no explosion or burst out of the gate, he's slow. Maybe if he was a bit quicker to the line of scrimmage he could find a better seam to run through. Is it there and he's just doesn't have the burst to hit it before it closes? I don't know. Something isn't right and I don't think you can make him any quicker or explosive. Even when he gets past the LOS he needs a lot of open space to make yards, which he has had on his longer runs. However, he can't out run anybody. To much speed on Defenses in the NFL. He will never be an elite runner, He's just too slow and has no burst. I think Elway made a bad decision here. Just my opinion.

Montee will likely never be a weapon, in the way that Shady McCoy is, or a beast like Lynch. I didn't expect him to be. We drafted him to be good, not great, and to be an all-around back: somebody who has a nose for the end zone when we're in close, who can pass block and catch a little and get yards between the tackles. We got him to fill the Joseph Addai role, not to be Edgerrin James.

We passed on Lacy because he's bad at pass-blocking (ask Aaron Rodgers how much he enjoys Lacy blowing another protection). And it ain't like Lacy is outgaining Ball: Montee's YPC is better, even though I think Lacy is a more powerful runner (Which would be nice with all this contact behind the line that we keep allowing). The other reason we took Ball, hilariously after last week, is for his ball security. He simply did not fumble in college. We want 4 YPC and no turnovers, 3rd-and-1 conversions and 3rd-and-goal touchdowns. Has he delivered? Not especially. But that's why we drafted him, and that's what we expect from him.

*shrugs* Running backs are weird. It's the rare running back who can be great without good blocking, though, and Ball is not that rare. He's just a workhorse guy. When we fix the blocking, Ball will look much better. He has good leg drive and pad level, and I don't expect him to be a fumbler going forward. But he's not gonna be a delight to watch - I'd settle for being able to watch him do his job.

[G_Money]

I have to wonder if Gase (Martz disciple) and Manning are just too-pass oriented, and a little run-blind. Like every enlightened fan, I'm not asking for 3 yards and a cloud of Virgil Green brain particles. But I wonder if it's some sort of blind spot with these guys, and Fox has delegated too much to his offensive geniuses--who admittedly are freaking amazing at what they do.

Manning had Edgerrin James for half a dozen years, and came out of the gate with Marshall Faulk. I think he should understand what a running game can do for an offense. Maybe he just doesn't think we have a RB worth his salt. I just don't understand why, if that's the case, that we don't try to help them more with scheme - as you and CrazyHorse were talking about. If you have a bland RB wouldn't you want to get him in space rather than relying on him to do all the work out of bland formations behind blah blocking? If your RB is creative, your scheme can be simple. If your Running back is only gonna take what is given, then don't you need to assist him with some innovation or matchup assistance?

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Manning had Edgerrin James for half a dozen years, and came out of the gate with Marshall Faulk. I think he should understand what a running game can do for an offense. Maybe he just doesn't think we have a RB worth his salt. I just don't understand why, if that's the case, that we don't try to help them more with scheme - as you and CrazyHorse were talking about. If you have a bland RB wouldn't you want to get him in space rather than relying on him to do all the work out of bland formations behind blah blocking? If your RB is creative, your scheme can be simple. If your Running back is only gonna take what is given, then don't you need to assist him with some innovation or matchup assistance?

Maybe I'm wrong.

A running game is much more effective if the QB is under center. I don't recall us doing anything under center yet this year, but I'm just shooting from the hip. Who knows, maybe they're saving it for later in the season. If we can win in the first half of the season with only 60% of the playbook that works a lot better for us.

[Bronco9798]

Montee will likely never be a weapon, in the way that Shady McCoy is, or a beast like Lynch. I didn't expect him to be. We drafted him to be good, not great, and to be an all-around back: somebody who has a nose for the end zone when we're in close, who can pass block and catch a little and get yards between the tackles. We got him to fill the Joseph Addai role, not to be Edgerrin James.

We passed on Lacy because he's bad at pass-blocking (ask Aaron Rodgers how much he enjoys Lacy blowing another protection). And it ain't like Lacy is outgaining Ball: Montee's YPC is better, even though I think Lacy is a more powerful runner (Which would be nice with all this contact behind the line that we keep allowing). The other reason we took Ball, hilariously after last week, is for his ball security. He simply did not fumble in college. We want 4 YPC and no turnovers, 3rd-and-1 conversions and 3rd-and-goal touchdowns. Has he delivered? Not especially. But that's why we drafted him, and that's what we expect from him.

*shrugs* Running backs are weird. It's the rare running back who can be great without good blocking, though, and Ball is not that rare. He's just a workhorse guy. When we fix the blocking, Ball will look much better. He has good leg drive and pad level, and I don't expect him to be a fumbler going forward. But he's not gonna be a delight to watch - I'd settle for being able to watch him do his job.


I get it. We basically drafted an average player who can be a little versatile. Could of probably got one of them in the later rounds with good homework, I would think. And who knows maybe he will get better, cause he isn't getting any quicker. But hey if he can plod out a few yards here and there, who knows, maybe he's worth it. I'll hold judgement.

[underrated29]

6.0 ypc when the rb makes it to the LOS without getting hit.



That's all I need to know right there. 6.0ypc is HUGE!!! I think some are forgetting just how gaudy that number is.

Look at Levon bell in Pitts. He made it yards before being touched. On his 81 yard run I don't think he was touched at all. Not once.


Ball could be besting that if we could just block for him past the damn LOS. Just imagine what he can do if we block 2 yards down field? Oh, we saw it against the chiefs. 22 yards on 3rd down. Power block and drive the defenders off the ball. Let ball find his own crease and forget the zone and stretch. Plow the Effin road! Clear as day.

[Hawgdriver]

Manning had Edgerrin James for half a dozen years, and came out of the gate with Marshall Faulk. I think he should understand what a running game can do for an offense.

But does he? I'd love a fireside chat with Manning and Gase to hear their philosophy regarding running the ball. Based on the offense we have seen last year and this year, the run seems an ancillary part of the offense, not a pillar of it.


Maybe he just doesn't think we have a RB worth his salt. I just don't understand why, if that's the case, that we don't try to help them more with scheme - as you and CrazyHorse were talking about. If you have a bland RB wouldn't you want to get him in space rather than relying on him to do all the work out of bland formations behind blah blocking? If your RB is creative, your scheme can be simple. If your Running back is only gonna take what is given, then don't you need to assist him with some innovation or matchup assistance?

Maybe I'm wrong.

Heard Vic L. on morning show say he watched all 20 running plays over again from every angle available. Said RB not the problem. Line missing blocks left and right, no individual, just as a unit a real crap job. Also said keep perspective, it's Seattle.

[MOtorboat]

Also said keep perspective, it's Seattle.

Yup. And in their house too, where they have lost ONE game in three seasons.

[G_Money]

A running game is much more effective if the QB is under center. I don't recall us doing anything under center yet this year, but I'm just shooting from the hip. Who knows, maybe they're saving it for later in the season. If we can win in the first half of the season with only 60% of the playbook that works a lot better for us.

You might like this link about shotgun-vs-under-center for 2013. (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/03/qbs-in-focus-shotgun/) Manning took 581 dropbacks in shotgun last year, most in the league. "Peyton Manning tops the list in PFF Grade, success percentage and dropbacks from the shotgun/pistol..."

How many under center? "Peyton Manning had only 96 dropbacks from under center, but he certainly made them count as he led with a 129.7 rating, 54.2 percent success rate, and a touchdown rate of 14.0 percent."

Sooo... Peyton is great from either, which begs the question of why we are taking 86% of our snaps out of the shotgun. Last year I understood it - Manning had a scrub LT and wanted to already be back from center so he could see his pressures and take fewer hits. But this year (when it feels like we're doing it at least as much, if not more)? I feel like you do: it's weird to be emphasizing the run while working almost exclusively from a less-effective running formation.

Maybe Gase needs to study Chip Kelly more. Shady runs all over the place while the Eagles work out of the Shotgun even more than Manning (more than 90% of the time). If we insist on running, AND on never being under center, then Ball may well be the wrong back for the offense.

[Hawgdriver]

A running game is much more effective if the QB is under center. I don't recall us doing anything under center yet this year, but I'm just shooting from the hip. Who knows, maybe they're saving it for later in the season. If we can win in the first half of the season with only 60% of the playbook that works a lot better for us.

I wonder if the Broncos would suck running more 2TE and FB (Unrein/Thompson) formations and a power running game, setting up play action using the same personnel. Manning prefers shotgun I imagine for faster release and defensive scheme recognition, but maybe you need to use the inside road grader trio and a FB if that's an area of strength? The swag of it appeals to me, but I'm pulling this straight from my A-Gap.

[G_Money]

Heard Vic L. on morning show say he watched all 20 running plays over again from every angle available. Said RB not the problem. Line missing blocks left and right, no individual, just as a unit a real crap job. Also said keep perspective, it's Seattle.

Agreed, it was a bad unit performance. Like I said, I don't think it's Ball. If you give him a hole, Ball is just fine. I don't like his idea of burst, but he has plenty of vision to find the hole and leg drive to make good positive yards - if there are any to gain. And yes, it's Seattle... but if our game-plan, 8 months in the making, was to run the ball down Seattle's throat then our gameplan was crap if we can't do that with the OL we have. We'll get some more chances against the NFCW to practice our run game against good front units. Not Seattle-caliber, perhaps, but we can get plenty of chances to work on it if we really want to.

We'll need much better performances from the OL though.

[Joel]

Is it there and he's just doesn't have the burst to hit it before it closes? I don't know.
It's hard to say, but the best bellwether is "whether" Anderson or Hillman ever do any better; the answer's pretty much "no." Throw in ALL our RBs getting hit behind the line on literally HALF their carries this season, and it's really hard to say Ball's the problem. He's missed the hole a few times, and may be developing the skittishness that kind of "blocking" created in Moreno for years until he just said, "screw it; I'll just get as much I can before the line lets them flatten me," but a lot of it's on the line. Maybe that frustrating blocking will give Ball the same kind of mean streak it gave Moreno last year.

He'll never be a 5 YPC kind of guy without MUCH better blocking though. I think G's right we drafted him to be Mannings new Addai; that was good enough to win a SB even with Indys awful D, and ours is much better—but their offensive line was much better. I'd stack Clady up with Tarik Glenn, but after that it's hard to find anyone on par with Jeff Saturday, or even Ryan Diem, Dylan Gandy and Jake Scott. All those guys were GOOD; Mannings quick reads and release went far toward keeping his pants clean, but so did they: Once he lost them, he also lost a whole season to injury.

Our guys look like they can finally pass block, but run block? Not so much. Franklins power should make him devastating inside, but hasn't, and the slow feet that made him a poor RT don't make him a great pulling G, which is worrisome since the LG is usually the one who pulls. Clark's rather similar: Great against bull rushes, but often beat by speed rushers (hence his strip-sacks in 3 straight games last year) so he should do better against LDEs who tend to be bigger and stronger but slower; again, he HASN'T so far.

"Gel" actually makes a lot of sense for offensive linemen, because they more than perhaps anyone must work collectively, as a unit. Overload blitzes and safeties/LBs up the middle work because defenses only need to find/create ONE hole—ANYWHERE—through which everyone can pour to end the play before it starts. That good news for them is bad news for offensive lines, which really are only as strong as their weakest link. If four guys do their job flawlessly and just ONE blows it: Busted play.

That five-part harmony's so delicate any change disrupts it; even if no one leaves, simply moving people alters what each one's used to relying on and compensating for in the guy(s) alongside him. Clady and Ramirez aren't making up for Beadles anymore, they're making up for Franklin, and likely still learning the difference. Meanwhile, Clark's pivoting off his left and driving off his right foot now instead of the reverse, and Franklin's facing duties he hasn't had in nearly a decade, at a much higher level. Maybe after the bye, now that they've had playing/practice time together and watched more film.

All arguments for Ball over Lacy also work for the idea of more power running; we can say we quit the finesse and got physical @Seattle, and the D did, but the offense didn't, and end runs against a smart fast D like Seattles is just asking for trouble unless the offensive linemen are elite run blockers, which ours aren't. They DO have the strength for line surge (about time, too) so maybe they should use it.

As far as the RBs themselves, I keep thinking about a preseason comment from Juwan Thompson that he LIKES hitting tacklers to make them think twice about the tackle; Jim Brown said something very similar in his playing days, and if our RBs must break tackles behind the line on ever run, I'd love having a guy like that.

[G_Money]

I wonder if the Broncos would suck running more 2TE and FB (Unrein/Thompson) formations and a power running game, setting up play action using the same personnel. Manning prefers shotgun I imagine for faster release and defensive scheme recognition, but maybe you need to use the inside road grader trio and a FB if that's an area of strength? The swag of it appeals to me, but I'm pulling this straight from my A-Gap.

Manning threw the ball faster from under center than from in the Shotgun last year, FWIW. He was 2.3 seconds to throw (with pressure coming at 2.5) under center and 2.7 seconds to throw (with pressure at 2.4) from the Shotgun. So you can say he had longer on shotgun throws to make more reads... but his under-center snaps were pretty stellar too, and he wasn't overly pressured from that position.

Manning likes his wideouts and I don't expect him to ditch them for power formations. One of the reasons I wanted to draft CJ Fedora-whatever from Iowa is because he's a blocking TE AND receiving TE. If we don't keep JT after this year he would be a good replacement, but being able to run two TE formations or use CJ as a FB appealed to me schematically.

Of course CJ hasn't done anything for the Texans yet, but I still like that plan. :D

~G

[G_Money]

Peyton has ALWAYS run the vast majority of his snaps out of the shotgun. Our running game is gonna need to be versatile enough to adjust - and Manning ran a lot of stretch back in Indy, IIRC. It helped with flow on play-action, since one wrong step by a defender is about all Manning needs.

But the stretch didn't work at ALL against Seattle, and I didn't expect it to. It used to get shut down by the Patriots too. What works against the soft middle of the NFL doesn't work as well against the best defenses unless you're perfect. The late 90s Broncos were perfect at the ground game. We won't be. So I'm glad we ran into Seattle early and got shut down on the ground. Now Manning and Gase have plenty of time to work out how to earn rushing yards against teams we can't run stretch against.

Or, y'know, maybe we'll just keep trying it and count on getting better at it as time goes on.

~G

[Bronco9798]

I just hope our so called "versatile" slow running back with no burst can be as good and valuable as you all think he can, or we're basically screwed when it comes to the playoffs. Remember Addai (as he is being compared to) made it 6 years and his numbers dwindled every year. I'll be watching. I'm a Bronco fan, I want him to succeed. I want to add to the 2 Super Bowl wins. not the 5 losses. I'm just not sold on this one, yet.

[7DnBrnc53]

Heard Vic L. on morning show say he watched all 20 running plays over again from every angle available. Said RB not the problem. Line missing blocks left and right, no individual, just as a unit a real crap job. Also said keep perspective, it's Seattle.

I watched the game again yesterday, and I agree. Maybe this line just needs cohesion in the run game.

I don't expect to have a ground game like we had when Davis was here, but we should be able to do somewhat better on the ground than we are doing. Wonder if a FB should be brought in (like John "The Terminator" Conner), but who do you cut to put one on the roster?

[underrated29]

With team defenses more geared towards defending the pass we should be running right at them. Swallow them Up with blockers. Not try and create something on a stretch or zone. Get your rb a head of steam and let him do the rest. The cbs don't want to tackle ball. He can break through the lb, we've seen that. Then it's up to the safety. I'd just plow 4 lineman which ever direction as long as it is not sideways.



Ps- none of our G can pull for shit. Zane was good at that, I will give him that praise. We have no one who can pull, so our trap is also harder to develop.


It'll come. I'm sure of it.

[G_Money]

I just hope our so called "versatile" slow running back with no burst can be as good and valuable as you all think he can, or we're basically screwed when it comes to the playoffs. Remember Addai (as he is being compared to) made it 6 years and his numbers dwindled every year. I'll be watching. I'm a Bronco fan, I want him to succeed. I want to add to the 2 Super Bowl wins. not the 5 losses. I'm just not sold on this one, yet.

Curtis Martin was a versatile back who averaged 4 yards a carry. But he could pass-block, and catch something in the flat, and be a durable contributor. He's in the HOF. I don't necessarily expect Ball to catch 40 passes a year... but then again he caught 20 last year as a backup.

If Ball is giving you 1100 yards on the ground, another 400 through the air, doesn't fumble, can get across the goal line and the down line... he's doing all a RB is really ever gonna do in a Manning offense.

And that's basically what Moreno did last year while splitting time with Ball. If Ball is only a healthier Moreno, that may be enough. He doesn't have to be Shady or Lynch. If we had a McCoy for this offense, yes, we'd be basically unstoppable. There just aren't a lot of those. We just need Ball and Hillman to be an approximation, and for the line to play muuuch better than they did last week. :)

It's a long season. We've got time to get there - and we're still the best team in the AFC while we get better.

~G

[Joel]

Manning likes his wideouts and I don't expect him to ditch them for power formations. One of the reasons I wanted to draft CJ Fedora-whatever from Iowa is because he's a blocking TE AND receiving TE. If we don't keep JT after this year he would be a good replacement, but being able to run two TE formations or use CJ as a FB appealed to me schematically.

Of course CJ hasn't done anything for the Texans yet, but I still like that plan. :D
Can Green fill that role? I thought of him as more of a pure blocker than receiver, but he made a nice catch @Seattle before concussed trying to carry it on a plunge, and had at least one other vs. KC. I know everyone wants Orange Julius to be the next Gronk, but I'd rather have a TE who's a very good blocker AND receiver than one who's elite at one but sucks at the other. When watching Orange Julius, it's sometimes really clear why he wanted to be WR in college, and really hard to see why his coach made him a TE. Just 'cause a dude's big doesn't make him anything more than a LARGE speedbump.

[G_Money]

Sharpe was a worthless blocker his first few years too, Joel. ;) He got better. Julius is a weapon, and based on how Gates cut up the Seahawks, JT might be a decisive weapon in a potential SB rematch. Aren't we already arguing about whether Ball isn't "elite" enough and is too much of a well-rounded jack-of-all-trades to truly take the offense forward? Sometimes being truly great at one thing is enough - if you can stay on the field enough to be utilized. Like Devin Hester, kicked aside by the Bears but getting more on-field chances to make a difference for the Falcons. We'll see how that test goes.

I think Green can block and be an H back. I dunno that I'm as sold on his ability to run really clean routes, which Manning obviously prefers, but we have 3 TEs and we're allowed to put at least two of them on the field at the same time. It's a wrinkle I'd like to see at some point, for sure.

~G

[Joel]

It's a long season. We've got time to get there - and we're still the best team in the AFC while we get better.
Yeah, the problem is NE doesn't play the NFCW, and Cincy and Indy don't play EITHER Western Division. The early bye gives time for our line to finally gel, Trevathans leg to knit, Harris and Millers stamina to return (though it looked there against Seattle; then again, the D collapsed in OT) and the insanity with Welker, Hillman and Webster to subside—but also means we'll have to earn a bye to get another break before the playoffs start. And with this schedule, we'll defintely EARN a bye if we get one (I don't really fancy an AFCCG anywhere but Mile High either.)

Too late to trade Franklin and a 3rd rounder for Peterson? :tongue:

[Bronco9798]

Curtis Martin was a versatile back who averaged 4 yards a carry. But he could pass-block, and catch something in the flat, and be a durable contributor. He's in the HOF. I don't necessarily expect Ball to catch 40 passes a year... but then again he caught 20 last year as a backup.

If Ball is giving you 1100 yards on the ground, another 400 through the air, doesn't fumble, can get across the goal line and the down line... he's doing all a RB is really ever gonna do in a Manning offense.

And that's basically what Moreno did last year while splitting time with Ball. If Ball is only a healthier Moreno, that may be enough. He doesn't have to be Shady or Lynch. If we had a McCoy for this offense, yes, we'd be basically unstoppable. There just aren't a lot of those. We just need Ball and Hillman to be an approximation, and for the line to play muuuch better than they did last week. :)

It's a long season. We've got time to get there - and we're still the best team in the AFC while we get better.

~G

I agree with what you say for the most part. Curtis Martin played in a different NFL back then. Defenses weren't as quick, different schemes, you really can't compare the two. Ball is who he is. He's a slow plodder. He needs good up front blocking. He needs space, he needs a lot of things to be successful. I just don't think he's going to be all that great without a lot of help. Again, for as high as a pick as he was, I would still expect more from him, that's just me. If he was a 5th round pick, I'd have no problems with him.

[Bronco9798]

Don't be messing with JT. Broncos went to the Super Bowl with the role he played last year and he's off to a decent start this year. Is he a great blocker? No. Oh well, he scores TD's, he's a weapon. All players have shortcomings, we'll adjust to his just fine. Let's not make something out of nothing. He's a weapon, period. W can adjust around his faults.

[BroncoNut]

when they say 2 tight end sets it is inaccurate because that would mean 4 TE's on the field and that is illegal. if they say 2 tight end SET, that is redundant at best.

[Joel]

Sharpe was a worthless blocker his first few years too, Joel. ;) He got better. Julius is a weapon, and based on how Gates cut up the Seahawks, JT might be a decisive weapon in a potential SB rematch. Aren't we already arguing about whether Ball isn't "elite" enough and is too much of a well-rounded jack-of-all-trades to truly take the offense forward? Sometimes being truly great at one thing is enough - if you can stay on the field enough to be utilized. Like Devin Hester, kicked aside by the Bears but getting more on-field chances to make a difference for the Falcons. We'll see how that test goes.
Hey, I'M not the one arguing Balls versatility doesn't make up for being sub-elite in each area. I'm the guy who always says I want a RB who's decent at everything more than one great at one thing because I don't want to telegraph runs by sending out the RB who can't pass block (or the only one who can convert 3rd and 2/4th and G) and telegraph passes by sending out the one who ONLY blocks and catches. Tight end's a hybrid position; if we just want a 250 lb. WR, give him Caldwells spot (though I like Caldwell) and sign a REAL TE.

I can wait as long as the coaches and Manning; people can talk about us giving JT a big payday this offseason, but each time Manning yells at him for a blown block costing a conversion, his salary falls.


I think Green can block and be an H back. I dunno that I'm as sold on his ability to run really clean routes, which Manning obviously prefers, but we have 3 TEs and we're allowed to put at least two of them on the field at the same time. It's a wrinkle I'd like to see at some point, for sure.
Good point on the route running; the NFL's not a sandlot for guys who "just get open" while the defense counts Mississsippis: If everyone's not where Manning expects, it's a sack. I am liking Greens hands so far this year, and with NO TE under contract for 2015, I'm as curious about the future of Tamme and Green as Thomas'.

[BroncoNut]

I only saw Manning yell at Julius once, I forget why though. it was last game I am pretty sure. In any event, I don't think it's right to yell at people in public like that, even if you don't hear what they are saying. but at the same time, I could understand Peyton's frustration and mine as a fan

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I only saw Manning yell at Julius once, I forget why though. it was last game I am pretty sure. In any event, I don't think it's right to yell at people in public like that, even if you don't hear what they are saying. but at the same time, I could understand Peyton's frustration and mine as a fan

It was the KC game because Julius just released down the field on a screen to DT instead of blocking, which resulted in two guys tackling DT behind the LOS.

[Joel]

It was the KC game because Julius just released down the field on a screen to DT instead of blocking, which resulted in two guys tackling DT behind the LOS... on THIRD DOWN: It forced us to punt in a game where we trying to keep them off the field and maintain our lead. What really seemed to set Manning off was that it looked like JT wanted to argue the point (the commentators speculated he was saying he was trying to get open for a pass; I can only hope that wasn't so, since it was the designed bubble screen we throw to DT about 200 times/gm.)

[BroncoNut]

It was the KC game because Julius just released down the field on a screen to DT instead of blocking, which resulted in two guys tackling DT behind the LOS.

doesnt' happen a lot though does it?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- The first impression has been the lasting one thus far for the Denver Broncos.

Their opening first down run of the season went for no gain. The second time they ran the ball on first down, it went for no gain. The fourth time? No gain.

And things haven't really picked up since. Now, no one is advocating a return to the league’s 70s show, the old run, run, pass possession. Not with the rules-makers having rolled out the red carpet to throw, not with Peyton Manning at quarterback and impact all over the formation at wide receiver.

rest - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/8961/for-broncos-first-down-a-first-priority

[Ravage!!!]

.. on THIRD DOWN: It forced us to punt in a game where we trying to keep them off the field and maintain our lead. What really seemed to set Manning off was that it looked like JT wanted to argue the point (the commentators speculated he was saying he was trying to get open for a pass; I can only hope that wasn't so, since it was the designed bubble screen we throw to DT about 200 times/gm.)

actually, I saw him shake his head as if saying "yeah, alright.'

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

doesnt' happen a lot though does it?

What, JT missing a block? I would say it happens on just about every running play. :laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

when they say 2 tight end sets it is inaccurate because that would mean 4 TE's on the field and that is illegal. if they say 2 tight end SET, that is redundant at best.

Actually, having 4 TEs on the field is not illegal. If i have more than one set that involves 2 TEs on the field, then I have 2 TE sets.

[MOtorboat]

Here's one thing that's never going to happen no matter how many words are wasted on it: Benching a guy who has scored 17 touchdowns in the last 17 games.

Lol.

[Joel]

actually, I saw him shake his head as if saying "yeah, alright.'
*shrugs* Just going by the no-sound video and the color commentators speculation; you could well be right.

[BroncoNut]

Here's one thing that's never going to happen no matter how many words are wasted on it: Benching a guy who has scored 17 touchdowns in the last 17 games.

Lol.

I can see that happening. . if you'd like to hear my scenario, just give me the word. lol

[BroncoNut]

What, JT missing a block? I would say it happens on just about every running play. :laugh:

well I guess I've been watching the wrong player