Premier League Youth Development

[tripp]

What's the point of it? Seriously? I'm a West Ham United supporter, and I've never understood what is the point in having a development squad if clubs like Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, etc etc, come and snatch all your star youth players? What's the point in spending millions in training these kids? I can understand why the top clubs do it, because they can manage to keep their youth players. West Ham over the years have lost an incredible amount of talent via relegation, and the pursuit of top clubs bullying the smaller clubs. By bullying, I'm suggesting they're waving around more money. Just to name a few players who have gone through the ranks in West Ham: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Glen Johnson, Michael Carrick, and John Terry. Now, they've lost 2 of the 3 star youth players to Man-U (Oscar Borg), and Arsenal (Ben Sheaf), while in a fight right now to keep their 3rd star player (Reece Oxford) at Upton Park.

Just needed to vent this as it seems like it's a complete and utter waste of time for teams who are in the lower half of the table to even bother putting up a fight. You may as well call West Ham, the top 5 teams in the EPL, their farm team. If anyone could shed some knowledge as to why there is any point in having a development squad for inferior teams, I'd love to know. If there's one thing that is absolutely certain in Soccer, more so than any other sport, there is no such thing as a "Lifer" or someone who stays at a club from his youth days to retirement. And I get it to a certain degree, you want to go to Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barcelona etc because these teams are the ones everyone is talking about, but how are the inferior teams ever supposed to get to that point if not for Billionaire owners taking over and buying top players? :confused:


/End rant.

[FanInAZ]

This is the same basic complaint in MLB with the Yankees, Redsox, Dodgers, etc. "buying" championships. US college athletics have a similar racket with bigger schools stealing just about any coach capable of back to back winning records for smaller schools.

Why is the NFL the most popular sport in America? A major factor is the collective bargaining agreement is designed to level the playing field better than any other league. This allows a team’s success to be based more on the competency of their FO, not on their ability to "purchase" championships.

[tripp]

I can definitely see that with the MLB. And I agree completely with your view on the NFL. I wish CBA would come to the EPL, unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen. In which case, I think there should be new rules made for youth players. Maybe something along the lines of, youth players are unattainable by other clubs until they reach a certain age, like 21? That way, if you do end up selling that player, you're getting more than a measly 200k for a player, you're getting something in the double digit millions for a star player who is living up to his potential. Something along those lines. I just think there needs to be rules for clubs who develop these players, and are insured that they either make a profit off the player, or he ends up staying with the club.

I don't ever see major changes happening as I feel like clubs such as Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc, hold a lot more weight than Crystal Palace, West Ham United, Fulham, Southampton, Leicester, etc.

[MOtorboat]

I can definitely see that with the MLB. And I agree completely with your view on the NFL. I wish CBA would come to the EPL, unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen. In which case, I think there should be new rules made for youth players. Maybe something along the lines of, youth players are unattainable by other clubs until they reach a certain age, like 21? That way, if you do end up selling that player, you're getting more than a measly 200k for a player, you're getting something in the double digit millions for a star player who is living up to his potential. Something along those lines. I just think there needs to be rules for clubs who develop these players, and are insured that they either make a profit off the player, or he ends up staying with the club.

I don't ever see major changes happening as I feel like clubs such as Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc, hold a lot more weight than Crystal Palace, West Ham United, Fulham, Southampton, Leicester, etc.

Domestic players in MLB are controlled by their club for seven seasons after their major league debut, three are under full contract and four years of arbitration eligibility, so they do have a system that counteracts that, which it sounds like EPL doesn't have.

MLB's systemis trade heavy because of the arbitration years, which does make it interesting and allow teams to essentially reload with youth players. Rarely in American sports are players straight sold like international soccer, though.

[DallasChief]

What's the point of it? Seriously? I'm a West Ham United supporter, and I've never understood what is the point in having a development squad if clubs like Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, etc etc, come and snatch all your star youth players? What's the point in spending millions in training these kids? I can understand why the top clubs do it, because they can manage to keep their youth players. West Ham over the years have lost an incredible amount of talent via relegation, and the pursuit of top clubs bullying the smaller clubs. By bullying, I'm suggesting they're waving around more money. Just to name a few players who have gone through the ranks in West Ham: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Glen Johnson, Michael Carrick, and John Terry. Now, they've lost 2 of the 3 star youth players to Man-U (Oscar Borg), and Arsenal (Ben Sheaf), while in a fight right now to keep their 3rd star player (Reece Oxford) at Upton Park.

Just needed to vent this as it seems like it's a complete and utter waste of time for teams who are in the lower half of the table to even bother putting up a fight. You may as well call West Ham, the top 5 teams in the EPL, their farm team. If anyone could shed some knowledge as to why there is any point in having a development squad for inferior teams, I'd love to know. If there's one thing that is absolutely certain in Soccer, more so than any other sport, there is no such thing as a "Lifer" or someone who stays at a club from his youth days to retirement. And I get it to a certain degree, you want to go to Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barcelona etc because these teams are the ones everyone is talking about, but how are the inferior teams ever supposed to get to that point if not for Billionaire owners taking over and buying top players? :confused:


/End rant.
West Ham gets great players like Andy Carroll and Stuart Downing for discounted rates. :)

Obviously the money made from selling players is greater than the cost of developing them or they wouldn't sell them.

[Valar Morghulis]

Obviously the money made from selling players is greater than the cost of developing them or they wouldn't sell them.

Thats it exactly mate - selling a kid for several million is what keeps these clubs financially viable, the more young players the sell, the more money they get, the better players they can buy, the more successful they can be, the more young players they can then keep!

[DallasChief]

Dave, have I told you that I'm a card carrying member of the Stoke City Football Club?

I wish I still had the picture of Delilah's probably the best bar in the premier league.

[Valar Morghulis]

Dave, have I told you that I'm a card carrying member of the Stoke City Football Club?

I wish I still had the picture of Delilah's probably the best bar in the premier league.

Thats cool - do you come over for many games?

Why Stoke?

[DallasChief]

We came over in March to watch Liverpool. Because LFC didn't play until Sunday we decided to go and watch the Stoke v Hull game. So we took the train to Stoke on Trent and the walked the 4 miles to Britannia. It was fun. We made a bet on the game at the stadium bar before the game but when the game was over there was no place to collect our winnings.

[DallasChief]

And in order to but tickets online, they make you member.

[Valar Morghulis]

We came over in March to watch Liverpool. Because LFC didn't play until Sunday we decided to go and watch the Stoke v Hull game. So we took the train to Stoke on Trent and the walked the 4 miles to Britannia. It was fun. We made a bet on the game at the stadium bar before the game but when the game was over there was no place to collect our winnings.

Send me your bet slip - i will cash it for you......

Are you coming over again?

[DallasChief]

Send me your bet slip - i will cash it for you......

Are you coming over again?

Hope to catch Liverpool in London sometime. Prolly against one of the pud teams like West Ham or Tottenham.

[DallasChief]

I'm not we still have the bet slip. Beef, do you have it?

[tripp]

West Ham gets great players like Andy Carroll and Stuart Downing for discounted rates. :)

Obviously the money made from selling players is greater than the cost of developing them or they wouldn't sell them.

The money spent training these kids isn't worth 250,000 quid to sell them to Man-U. Andy Carroll was basically told by Brendan Rogers he doesn't have a place on the team with the acquisition of Luis Suarez, so we took Carroll on loan with the opportunity to buy him if the loan deemed successful. And Kenny Dalglish overpaid for Downing, so the fact that we spent double digits on Downing was criminal, in my humble opinion of course.

Andy Carroll's term in West Ham has been nothing short of useless over the past 2 years, and with another injury that has him kept out of play for another 4 months. Enner Valencia will have more goals by Christmas than Carroll has had with his entire term with the Hammers. and don't tell me you're a Scouser supporter. :tsk:

Not a fan of the Mancs but this chant is hilarious. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G477ZA0QmAE

[tripp]

Thats it exactly mate - selling a kid for several million is what keeps these clubs financially viable, the more young players the sell, the more money they get, the better players they can buy, the more successful they can be, the more young players they can then keep!

Selling a kid who has played with first team, and has proven his worth at top flight level, sure. That makes sense to me, like Mario Gotze, sold him for 50 something euros. But when you have young Mario Gotze's being sold at age 18 for 250,000 pounds, that doesn't help the club who is selling him. And it's not by choice either, it's the player refusing a contract knowing they'll be paid double in wages by going to a larger club. West Ham's way out of being considered a stepping stone club will be Olympic Stadium.

[elsid13]

If I had been a youth player with some talent I would rather stay at one of the med-tier/lower team, then go to big club. At least you have the opportunity to play first team vs sitting on bench.

[Apollo]

Not read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat some things that have already been said.

I think this should be expanded to all of European and South American football. A lot of European teams from lesser leagues, i.e Holland, Portugal, etc, lose their home grown talent to big English/German/Spanish teams. However, they usually get a good few years out of them and then can sell them for a huge fee, which is used to improve facilities, get better players in, or in some cases to simply break even. Most South American players with reasonable talent stay in South America, most are happy to leave even to play in the likes of Belgium or Greece, but the respective South American teams still get a good few years out them and a nice pay-off. So it actually does make sense to develop a player, get good use of him, and then sell him off.

I also think that as Financial Fair Play develops, teams with stronger youth teams will have a higher chance of keeping their stars.

Also remember that there are some 'affiliations' between clubs. A very low division club can be sponsored by a bigger club. Also most deals include a 'solidarity' fee which means that Goetze's youth club would have seen a small kick-back off of the fee to Bayern Munich.

In the case of West Ham, they actually could have kept all of their stars back then but they were not run very well at the time.