Longtime John Elway critic Terry Bradshaw shifts target to Peyton Manning

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Congratulations, Peyton Manning. You, too, have been ripped by Terry Bradshaw.

Hey, it worked out well for John Elway. Bradshaw, the former Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback who was part of four Super Bowl champions and wound up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, once said Elway was “babied.” This was as Elway was about to finish his seventh NFL season with his third Super Bowl appearance.

Now, Bradshaw is directing his barbs at current Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning.

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2014/06/19/long-time-elway-critic-terry-bradshaw-shifts-target-peyton-manning/28043/

[Ravage!!!]

There are VERY FEW... if any.... opinions that I think of less than Terry Bradshaw's.

[CoachChaz]

Not that I give a damn about Bradshaw's opinion, but I guess I'm missing what he said that isnt true in this scenario.

[Dzone]

Blowhard. He has 4 rings thanks to the steel curtain. Why isnt he mentioned in the same breath as Montana? because bradshaw sucks

[Northman]

Im indifferent to his opinions i guess. There are times i like his commentary and times i dont. He really isnt much different than most of today's commentators who speak on all things NFL. He's obviously a dope if he thinks just because Elway went 2-3 and Manning has gone 1-2 in SB's that it means they suck or are babied i disagree heartily 100%. People use to scoff at me when i said Elway would of been a HOF in my book even after 3 SB losses. Just getting there is no easy task and while Bradshaw enjoyed 4 SB wins it hardly makes him the QB that Elway and Manning are/were.

[BroncoWave]

Im indifferent to his opinions i guess. There are times i like his commentary and times i dont. He really isnt much different than most of today's commentators who speak on all things NFL. He's obviously a dope if he thinks just because Elway went 2-3 and Manning has gone 1-2 in SB's that it means they suck or are babied i disagree heartily 100%. People use to scoff at me when i said Elway would of been a HOF in my book even after 3 SB losses. Just getting there is no easy task and while Bradshaw enjoyed 4 SB wins it hardly makes him the QB that Elway and Manning are/were.

Those people sound like huge idiots.

[OrangeHoof]

Terry Bradshaw remains my first case study on the effects of brain damage in the NFL.

[Canmore]

Terry Bradshaw remains my first case study on the effects of brain damage in the NFL.

What brain does Terry have that could possibly have been damaged?

[FanInAZ]

Blowhard. He has 4 rings thanks to the steel curtain. Why isnt he mentioned in the same breath as Montana? because bradshaw sucks

He also had a HoF RB & 2 HoF WRs.

[tomjonesrocks]

Not that I give a damn about Bradshaw's opinion, but I guess I'm missing what he said that isnt true in this scenario.

It is what it is. Manning's postseason record sucks. To a degree he's a victim of his own regular season success, and gets teams that aren't that good farther than they should (and then gets exposed). If you believe Sherman, that was true of last year's team.

Getting it done either of the last two years would have silenced this narrative, but Bradshaw isn't the only guy saying this...

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It is what it is. Manning's postseason record sucks. To a degree he's a victim of his own regular season success, and gets teams that aren't that good farther than they should (and then gets exposed). If you believe Sherman, that was true of last year's team.

Getting it done either of the last two years would have silenced this narrative, but Bradshaw isn't the only guy saying this...

He's not the only one, but he's part of a very small opinionated minority. :D

[FanInAZ]

Not that I give a damn about Bradshaw's opinion, but I guess I'm missing what he said that isnt true in this scenario.

The idea that the QB is THE reason that teams win SBs.

[Nomad]

Not that I give a damn about Bradshaw's opinion, but I guess I'm missing what he said that isnt true in this scenario.

True! Manning has to prove Bradshaw wrong.

[Hardwired]

What brain does Terry have that could possibly have been damaged?

My Dad went to college at LA Tech with Bradshaw and said there may not have been a dumber human being on the face of the earth, so I just remember that when he talks.

[tomjonesrocks]

My Dad went to college at LA Tech with Bradshaw and said there may not have been a dumber human being on the face of the earth, so I just remember that when he talks.

He couldn't spell "CAT" if you spotted him the...

:)

[Canmore]

He couldn't spell "CAT" if you spotted him the...

:)

He couldn't get one letter right in coffee...kaphy.

[Shazam!]

If anyone remembers, in an SI interview after Super Bowl 33 and having to be the first to present the Lombardi trophy to Elway and Co., Bradshaw admitted his jealousy of John.

[Simple Jaded]

I think it's obscenely stupid to ding a QB for getting to the SB and losing, and I can't understand the people who'd rather not make it to the SB than make it and lose. Chickenshit.

[tomjonesrocks]

If anyone remembers, in an SI interview after Super Bowl 33 and having to be the first to present the Lombardi trophy to Elway and Co., Bradsh aw admitted his jealousy of John.

I don't recall that. Jealous of what: Elway being the most talented QB ever to put on cleats? The unquestioned respect from foes? The "retiring on top" thing wasn't a lock then...

[Dapper Dan]

That dumbass couldn't spell kat if you gave him the K and the T.

[Dzone]

"Bradshaw couldn't spell CAT if you spotted him the C and the A."
-- Dallas LB "Hollywood" Henderson before Super Bowl XIII --

[Shazam!]

If anyone remembers, in an SI interview after Super Bowl 33 and having to be the first to present the Lombardi trophy to Elway and Co., Bradsh aw admitted his jealousy of John.

I don't recall that. Jealous of what: Elway being the most talented QB ever to put on cleats? The unquestioned respect from foes? The "retiring on top" thing wasn't a lock then...


"I was a quarterback constantly ridiculed. Even when we won, it was because of everybody else. I had a chip on my shoulder. That led to an emotional outburst on my part. I wanted to be thought of the same way as Elway, the same way as [Roger] Staubach. It was a huge mistake. John said I was jealous. He was right. I still am. I wish I had all that money and hair. I wish I could ski and play golf like he can." - Terry Bradshaw, 1998


http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/22/sports/sp-10885

This was after Denver's first win. Bradshaw on the podium after the second win was icing on the cake.

[CoachChaz]

The idea that the QB is THE reason that teams win SBs.


True! Manning has to prove Bradshaw wrong.

Maybe it's just me, but all I read him saying is that Manning is a great regular season QB...but not so much come the post-season. I think even his statistics prove that. I guess I just didnt see where Bradshaw said prove it to ME or that SB's were the be all/end all determination of a QB's career.

Sounds like were making a lot more out of this than what there is.

[Northman]

Maybe it's just me, but all I read him saying is that Manning is a great regular season QB...but not so much come the post-season. I think even his statistics prove that.

Not so sure, the only stat that would be used against him is the W/L which is 11-12 vs Bradshaws 14-5. But since that is basically a team oriented stat i wouldnt hold much faith in it. Their personal stats actually say Manning is much better.

Manning:
37 TD's vs 24 Ints
6589 yds passing
Comp % 64

Bradshaw:
30 Td's vs 26 Ints
3833 yds passing
Comp %57

Im just not really sure what Terry is really driving at other than the team stat.

[artie_dale]

Don't we all already know that these sports opinion heads/anylists all say what their producers tell them to say? In their ear piece? I'm sure some of what they say is their actual opinion, but how often is there a hot topic and 2-4 of these guys all have different opinions, usually opinions that add heat to the discussion?

All these opinions are calculated by the producer to keep the show interesting and raise us fan's blood pressure. Bradshaw probably volunteers to be the one who has these kind of contraversal opinions, but I assume he volunteers to have them because he's still a douche.

[CoachChaz]

The idea that the QB is THE reason that teams win SBs.


Not so sure, the only stat that would be used against him is the W/L which is 11-12 vs Bradshaws 14-5. But since that is basically a team oriented stat i wouldnt hold much faith in it. Their personal stats actually say Manning is much better.

Manning:
37 TD's vs 24 Ints
6589 yds passing
Comp % 64

Bradshaw:
30 Td's vs 26 Ints
3833 yds passing
Comp %57

Im just not really sure what Terry is really driving at other than the team stat.

But again...I wasnt...and I dont think Terry was comparing Manning to himself. He just stated that Manning was a great regular season QB and not a great post-season QB. And if you look st the stats...Manning is pretty average in the post season.

I dont know. I just dont read into it as much as some others seem to be doing.

[Northman]

But again...I wasnt...and I dont think Terry was comparing Manning to himself. He just stated that Manning was a great regular season QB and not a great post-season QB. And if you look st the stats...Manning is pretty average in the post season.

I dont know. I just dont read into it as much as some others seem to be doing.


Ok, but Terry himself was pretty average in the playoffs if not worse. So again im just confused what he is getting at. I mean, we all know commentators are just lip service anyway but it is the offseason so its just something to talk about.

[artie_dale]

Ok, but Terry himself was pretty average in the playoffs if not worse. So again im just confused what he is getting at. I mean, we all know commentators are just lip service anyway but it is the offseason so its just something to talk about.

It has baffled me how so many people chalk up Super Bowl wins on the QB's back, instead of the entire team. Cause Brady won all of his on his own... Same goes for Bradshaw, Dilfer, Flacco, Russel Wilson... Come on, man.

[CoachChaz]

Ok, but Terry himself was pretty average in the playoffs if not worse. So again im just confused what he is getting at. I mean, we all know commentators are just lip service anyway but it is the offseason so its just something to talk about.

I agree...but I still havent seen the part where he is comparing himself to Manning. I think people are assuming that is his intent, or simply negating his opinion based on his own performance. But if the latter was the case...none of us could have an opinion on anything football related.

Again...I'm not a fan of Bradshaw...but until he says something along the lines of "I was better than Manning in the post-season", he is simply stating an opinion based on observation.

[GEM]

Blowhard. He has 4 rings thanks to the steel curtain. Why isnt he mentioned in the same breath as Montana? because bradshaw sucks

Not quite sure why no one has the kahunas to tell him that. Shut the bald headed big mouth up.

[GEM]

It is what it is. Manning's postseason record sucks. To a degree he's a victim of his own regular season success, and gets teams that aren't that good farther than they should (and then gets exposed). If you believe Sherman, that was true of last year's team.

Getting it done either of the last two years would have silenced this narrative, but Bradshaw isn't the only guy saying this...

Funny, Elway and Manning took teams of nobodies and made somebody of them. Terry was a nobody that everybody else carried. Irony.

[Ravage!!!]

Bradshaw has ALWAYS been the epitome example of " knocking others to make yourself look good." Bradshaw doesn't like the fact that he has 4 rings, yet is NEVER mentioned in the conversations on "The Best QB to ever play." Manning is always mentioned in that conversation.

I've seen Bradshaw in interviews ask "why is Montana considered the best QB? Because he has 4 rings, I have that. Bradshaw will always knock other QBs because he feels slighted rather than just enjoying his success.

Kinda like Micheal Jordan.

[Nomad]

Maybe it's just me, but all I read him saying is that Manning is a great regular season QB...but not so much come the post-season. I think even his statistics prove that. I guess I just didnt see where Bradshaw said prove it to ME or that SB's were the be all/end all determination of a QB's career.

Sounds like were making a lot more out of this than what there is.

I'm not making this more than what it is. Bradshaw is right about Manning. It seems this would drive Manning to rally his team and himself to keep winning in the playoffs as well as a Super Bowl. I'm sure he could care less what Bradshaw says, but Manning is a competitor and wants to prove he can win another Super Bowl.

[artie_dale]

I'm not making this more than what it is. Bradshaw is right about Manning. It seems this would drive Manning to rally his team and himself to keep winning in the playoffs as well as a Super Bowl. I'm sure he could care less what Bradshaw says, but Manning is a competitor and wants to prove he can win another Super Bowl.

^^Yes. "Tackling fule"--Bobby Boucher

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If anyone remembers, in an SI interview after Super Bowl 33 and having to be the first to present the Lombardi trophy to Elway and Co., Bradshaw admitted his jealousy of John.

from article:


Eight years ago, on the Wednesday before Super Bowl XXIV in New Orleans, Terry Bradshaw did.

"John's problem is he has been babied by the city, he has been babied by the coach. . . . He's got to get better eventually. He's too inconsistent."

Elway was prepared that week to be blindsided by San Francisco's Charles Haley. He didn't expect it from Bradshaw.

"He has been bashing me since I came into the league," Elway said. "He doesn't like the money I make. He can stick it in his ear."

rest - http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/22/sports/sp-10885

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from same article:


Today, Bradshaw wishes he had stuck something in his mouth. Other than his foot, I mean. "I was a quarterback constantly ridiculed, constantly questioned," he said Wednesday by telephone from his family's home in Shreveport, La. "Even when we won, it was because of everybody else. I had a chip on my shoulder.

"That led to an emotional outburst on my part. I wanted to be thought of the same way as Elway, the same way as [Roger] Staubach. It was a huge mistake.

"John said I was jealous. He was right. I still am. I wish I had all that money and hair. I wish I could ski and play golf like he can."

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/22/sports/sp-10885

[OrangeHoof]

How many of Bradshaw's running backs have gone to the Hall of Fame?

How many of Manning's?

How many of Elway's?

[Shazam!]

from same article:


Today, Bradshaw wishes he had stuck something in his mouth. Other than his foot, I mean. "I was a quarterback constantly ridiculed, constantly questioned," he said Wednesday by telephone from his family's home in Shreveport, La. "Even when we won, it was because of everybody else. I had a chip on my shoulder.

"That led to an emotional outburst on my part. I wanted to be thought of the same way as Elway, the same way as [Roger] Staubach. It was a huge mistake.

"John said I was jealous. He was right. I still am. I wish I had all that money and hair. I wish I could ski and play golf like he can."

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/22/sports/sp-10885

I posted the Link too.

[SWotRR]

Not quite sure why no one has the kahunas to tell him that. Shut the bald headed big mouth up.

You should do it GEM, you already have the words for him. :laugh:

[sneakers]

I liked it how Bradshaw had to hand the Lombardi Trophy to Elway and sit on the stage and talk to him after SB XXXIII

[Hawgdriver]

The answer is so simple and it's this--who gives two gnat turds, just shut the dude up and win a championship. The future is in front of this great football team, just execute it.

[LTC Pain]

I don't give a flying, juicy bat fart what Bradshaw thinks of Elway/Manning!

[Dzone]

Iirc, Bradshaw had some publicized mental health issues that he is on meds for now. Kind of like Brandon marshall. I think bradshaw is bi-polar or something like that.
He is a windbag and the worst member of that 4 man sunday morning crew on fox. He needs to go the way of Dan Marino and be gone

[Shazam!]

Jealous that he's not even thought of as a top 10 QB.

[MNPatsFan]

Funny, Elway and Manning took teams of nobodies and made somebody of them.GEM, are you nuts?:shocked:

I will leave Elway out of this discussion, but Manning didn't take teams of nobodies and make somebody of them. Manning has been surrounded by a number of Pro Bowl and all-pro players since his third season or so in the NFL, especially on offense. Manning's record and stats stand for themselves. He is probably the GOAT regular season QB, but when he gets into the playoffs he becomes a very average or pedestrian QB. If Manning wasn't a Bronco now, you wouldn't have made that absurd statement.;)


Terry was a nobody that everybody else carried. Irony.I agree with you however, that Terry rode on the coattails of his Iron Curtain Defense and his running offense.

[MOtorboat]

GEM, are you nuts?:shocked:

I will leave Elway out of this discussion, but Manning didn't take teams of nobodies and make somebody of them. Manning has been surrounded by a number of Pro Bowl and all-pro players since his third season or so in the NFL, especially on offense. Manning's record and stats stand for themselves. He is probably the GOAT regular season QB, but when he gets into the playoffs he becomes a very average or pedestrian QB. If Manning wasn't a Bronco now, you wouldn't have made that absurd statement.;)

I agree with you however, that Terry rode on the coattails of his Iron Curtain Defense and his running offense.

All quarterbacks see their stats decline in the postseason. Look it up.

[Valar Morghulis]

It is hard to get excited about the comments of an old tv pundit that once played behind a team that won in spite of him not because of him - he would say anything to keep his air time.

[MNPatsFan]

All quarterbacks see their stats decline in the postseason. Look it up.Perhaps, but most of the great QBs don't or haven't seen their stats and won-loss records plummet or decline to the degree that Manning's does/has. In the playoffs to date, Manning has clearly been a pedestrian or mediocre QB.

If I had the time or wanted to make the effort, I would probably be able to pull up posts and quotes from a number of posters on here saying the same thing when Manning played for the Colts.;)

[Simple Jaded]

Publicity stunt.

[Valar Morghulis]

Perhaps, but most of the great QBs don't or haven't seen their stats and won-loss records plummet or decline to the degree that Manning's does/has. In the playoffs to date, Manning has clearly been a pedestrian or mediocre QB.

If I had the time or wanted to make the effort, I would probably be able to pull up posts and quotes from a number of posters on here saying the same thing when Manning played for the Colts.;)

Dan Marino never won the superbowl - no one doubts he was an all time great.

[MOtorboat]

Perhaps, but most of the great QBs don't or haven't seen their stats and won-loss records plummet or decline to the degree that Manning's does/has. In the playoffs to date, Manning has clearly been a pedestrian or mediocre QB.

If I had the time or wanted to make the effort, I would probably be able to pull up posts and quotes from a number of posters on here saying the same thing when Manning played for the Colts.;)

Derp.


Hall of Fame Quarterbacks (And two sure fire ones) and their performances in the playoffs since 1980 (Montana played in 79, I think)...


P G GS Cmp Att Pct. Yards Avg. TD INT Rat
Montana 23 23 460 734 62.7% 5772 7.9 45 21 95.6
Manning 20 20 481 761 63.2% 5679 7.5 32 21 88.4
Aikman 16 15 320 502 63.7% 3849 7.7 23 17 88.3
Brady 24 24 553 887 62.3% 5949 6.7 42 22 87.4
Young 20 14 292 471 62.0% 3326 7.1 20 13 85.8
Moon 10 10 259 403 64.3% 2870 7.1 17 14 84.9
Elway 22 22 355 651 54.5% 4964 7.6 27 21 79.7
Marino 18 18 385 687 56.0% 4510 6.6 32 24 77.1
Kelly 17 17 322 545 59.1% 3863 7.1 21 28 72.3

[FanInAZ]

Dan Marino never won the superbowl - no one doubts he was an all time great.

Its not a good sign with your D is nicknamed: "The Miami Mice" (A play on "Miami Vice," a popular crime drama at the time.

[Valar Morghulis]

Its not a good sign with your D is nicknamed: "The Miami Mice" (A play on "Miami Vice," a popular crime drama at the time.

I never knew that - I remember the show - never heard the reference before lol

[MNPatsFan]

Derp.I notice you failed to provide each quaterback's W-L and stats in the biggest game of the year, the Super Bowl, so I am providing those for you. I listed the QBs by winning percentage. A critical stat that jumps out immediately is that EVERY QB with a losing record in the SB also has thrown more INTs than TDs.


Name W-L Comp Att Yds TD Int Rating
Joe Montana 4-0 83 122 1142 11 0 127.8
Troy Aikman 3-0 56 80 689 5 1 111.9
SteveYoung 2-0 26 39 345 6 0 134.1
Tom Brady 3-2 127 197 1277 9 2 93.8
John Elway 2-3 76 152 1128 3 8 59.3
Peyton Manning 1-2 90 132 860 3 4 81.0
Dan Marino 0-1 29 50 318 1 2 66.9
Jim Kelly 0-4 81 145 829 2 7 56.9


I also notice that for the playoff stats you provided, you failed to provide each QB's W-L record so I will do that for you again listing them by winning percentage:



Name W-L
Joe Montana 16-7
Tom Brady 18-8
Troy Aikman 11-5
John Elway 14-8
SteveYoung 12-8
Jim Kelly 9-8
Peyton Manning 11-12
Dan Marino 8-10
Warren Moon 3-7

[MOtorboat]

I notice you failed to provide each quaterback's W-L and stats in the biggest game of the year, the Super Bowl, so I am providing those for you. I listed the QBs by winning percentage. A critical stat that jumps out immediately is that EVERY QB with a losing record in the SB also has thrown more INTs than TDs.


Name W-L Comp Att Yds TD Int Rating
Joe Montana 4-0 83 122 1142 11 0 127.8
Troy Aikman 3-0 56 80 689 5 1 111.9
SteveYoung 2-0 26 39 345 6 0 134.1
Tom Brady 3-2 127 197 1277 9 2 93.8
John Elway 2-3 76 152 1128 3 8 59.3
Peyton Manning 1-2 90 132 860 3 4 81.0
Dan Marino 0-1 29 50 318 1 2 66.9
Jim Kelly 0-4 81 145 829 2 7 56.9


I also notice that for the playoff stats you provided, you failed to provide each QB's W-L record so I will do that for you again listing them by winning percentage:



Name W-L
Joe Montana 16-7
Tom Brady 18-8
Troy Aikman 11-5
John Elway 14-8
SteveYoung 12-8
Jim Kelly 9-8
Peyton Manning 11-12
Dan Marino 8-10
Warren Moon 3-7


It's OK. You are wrong in your original statements. No big deal.

[MNPatsFan]

It's OK. You are wrong in your original statements. No big deal.How was I wrong in my original statement?:confused:

In my original statement I said:

Perhaps, but most of the great QBs don't or haven't seen their stats and won-loss records plummet or decline to the degree that Manning's does/has. In the playoffs to date, Manning has clearly been a pedestrian or mediocre QB.

In the regular season, Manning stats are:

Name W-L Comp Att Yds TD Int Rating
Peyton Manning 167-73 5532 8452 64964 491 219 97.2


While in the post-season, his stats are:

Name W-L Comp Att Yds TD Int Rating
Peyton Manning 11-12 572 889 6589 37 24 89.2


Manning's winning percentage drops from 69.6% in the regular season to 47.8 in the post-season. His TD to INT ratio drops from 2.24 in the regular season to 1.54 in the post-season and his Rating drops 8 points. So Motorboat, please show me where of how I was wrong when I accurately stated that Manning's stats and won-loss records plummet or decline. Moreover, Manning's stats and won-loss record in the playoffs are clearly pedestrian or mediocre. If you don't agree then please enlighten me as to what won-loss record you would classify as pedestrian or mediocre?:confused:

[MOtorboat]

You were wrong so you're changing the parameters and ignoring half of your original statement.

His statistical playoff decline is right on par with all Hall of Fame quarterbacks of his generation.

[MNPatsFan]

You were wrong so you're changing the parameters and ignoring half of your original statement.

His statistical playoff decline is right on par with all Hall of Fame quarterbacks of his generation.I am not changing the parameters. You are merely considering or looking at SOME of his stats, but not ALL the stats I referenced in my original post. I don't have the time to do the research, but please show me how his statistical playoff decline in TD-INT percentage and win-loss percentage are right on par with ALL HOF quarterbacks of his generation and please identify who you consider the HOF QBs of his generation.

You still haven't answered my question as to whether you consider a QB with a playoff winning percentage of 47.8 pedestrian or mediocre in the playoffs. How about a QB who has thrown only 1.5 TDs for every INT he has thrown, do you consider that good or pedestrian/mediocre?

[MOtorboat]

I am not changing the parameters. You are merely considering or looking at SOME of his stats, but not ALL the stats I referenced in my original post. I don't have the time to do the research, but please show me how his statistical playoff decline in TD-INT percentage and win-loss percentage are right on par with ALL HOF quarterbacks of his generation and please identify who you consider the HOF QBs of his generation.

You still haven't answered my question as to whether you consider a QB with a playoff winning percentage of 47.8 pedestrian or mediocre in the playoffs. How about a QB who has thrown only 1.5 TDs for every INT he has thrown, do you consider that good or pedestrian/mediocre?

Compared to Hall of Fame quarterbacks all of his stats are on par, including win-loss record, so I will never consider him a pedestrian quarterback in any fashion. I've showed that.

The premise is absurd and stupid.

[MOtorboat]

My list was through last year, btw. So, Manning's statistical performance got better as he went 2-1 in the playoffs and Brady's got worse with a 1-1 record and some bad single performances (note that does not make him pedestrian overall).

[MOtorboat]

Of Hall of Fame quarterbacks since 1980, he is first in yards, third in completion percentage, second in rating, third in touchdowns completed...yup, just pedestrian all around.

[Nomad]

Just win, Manning and the BRONCOS. Don't care about your stats.

[Valar Morghulis]

Of Hall of Fame quarterbacks since 1980, he is first in yards, third in completion percentage, second in rating, third in touchdowns completed...yup, just pedestrian all around.

Lol

[MNPatsFan]

Of Hall of Fame quarterbacks since 1980, he is first in yards, third in completion percentage, second in rating, third in touchdowns completed...yup, just pedestrian all around.
Manning is also seventh (out of nine) in winning percentage; tied for second (out of nine) in throwing the most interceptions; but despite throwing a lot of INTs, he is fourth out of nine (thus better than 5 QBs) in his TD-INT ratio. Your stats are his good stats and mine are his bad stats (except his TD-INT ratio is a good stat)

[Valar Morghulis]

Manning is also seventh (out of nine) in winning percentage; tied for second (out of nine) in throwing the most interceptions; but despite throwing a lot of INTs, he is fourth out of nine (thus better than 5 QBs) in his TD-INT ratio. Your stats are his good stats and mine are his bad stats (except his TD-INT ratio is a good stat)

All I have got from this is that PFM is a hall of Fame qb. Perhaps not number one in the post season, but in the discussion

[MOtorboat]

All I have got from this is that PFM is a hall of Fame qb. Perhaps not number one in the post season, but in the discussion

That's basically what I was trying to get at. The numbers are comparable to all other HALL OF FAME quarterbacks (thus implying greatness, and certainly not pedestrian by any means).

MN has a long history of trying to disparage Manning, though, so I don't expect anything less.

[Valar Morghulis]

MN has a long history of trying to disparage Manning, though, so I don't expect anything less.

I dont blame him - that clinic PFM put on the AFC Championship game was unreal!

[MNPatsFan]

All I have got from this is that PFM is a hall of Fame qb. Perhaps not number one in the post season, but in the discussionPeyton Manning is undeniably a Hall of Fame QB. I never said and won't ever say that Peyton Manning isn't a great QB or a HOF QB because he is BOTH of those!:salute:

Motorboat and I were just arguing over semantics. IMHO, Peyton Manning is probably the GOAT Regular season QB. The postseason is a different story, however, and Peyton Manning's W-L record and stats, both good and bad, speak for themselves.

[MNPatsFan]

That's basically what I was trying to get at. The numbers are comparable to all other HALL OF FAME quarterbacks (thus implying greatness, and certainly not pedestrian by any means).

MN has a long history of trying to disparage Manning, though, so I don't expect anything less.Motorboat please stop making broad over generalized statements. I don't believe I have ever disparaged P. Manning and his regular season accomplishments. I have merely tried to interject some reality when posters ignore, minimize, and/or selectively omit Peyton Manning's sub-par postseason W-L record and stats. However, just because Peyton Manning's postseason play has been sub-par doesn't mean that he still isn't a great QB.

[MNPatsFan]

All I have got from this is that PFM is a hall of Fame qb. Perhaps not number one in the post season, but in the discussionJust curious, but how can Peyton Manning be in the discussion as the number one QB in the post season? His W-L record in the postseason and Super Bowls along with his stats in the postseason and especially in the Super Bowl preclude him from being in the discussion as the number one QB in the post season. Just off the top of my head, I would rank the following QBs ahead of Manning as postseason QBs: Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, SteveYoung, Tom Brady and John Elway. I believe that most people would agree that those 5 QBs rank ahead of Manning as postseason QBs (excludes any and all consideration of Manning's regular season performances and exploits).

[Valar Morghulis]

Just curious, but how can Peyton Manning be in the discussion as the number one QB in the post season? His W-L record in the postseason and Super Bowls along with his stats in the postseason and especially in the Super Bowl preclude him from being in the discussion as the number one QB in the post season. Just off the top of my head, I would rank the following QBs ahead of Manning as postseason QBs: Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, SteveYoung, Tom Brady and John Elway. I believe that most people would agree that those 5 QBs rank ahead of Manning as postseason QBs (excludes any and all consideration of Manning's regular season performances and exploits).

I agree with all that - less Young.

I would also add that I don't think Manning has finished!

[MNPatsFan]

I agree with all that - less Young.

I would also add that I don't think Manning has finished!I agree that Manning hasn't finished yet. In addition to thinking that Manning is a great QB, I also think that he is one of the classiest pro athletes and persons.

[MOtorboat]

Motorboat please stop making broad over generalized statements. I don't believe I have ever disparaged P. Manning and his regular season accomplishments. I have merely tried to interject some reality when posters ignore, minimize, and/or selectively omit Peyton Manning's sub-par postseason W-L record and stats. However, just because Peyton Manning's postseason play has been sub-par doesn't mean that he still isn't a great QB.

Calling him pedestrian, by any stretch, is not objective commentary.

[MNPatsFan]

Calling him pedestrian, by any stretch, is not objective commentary.According to Merriam-Webster, pedestrian is defined as commonplace, while mediocre is defined as "of moderate or low quality . . . ability, or performance: ordinary, so-so." IMHO, a postseason won-loss record of 11-12 is pedestrian, mediocre, ordinary, so-so and therefore is objective commentary because his record meets the definition for both pedestrian and mediocre.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that if a poll was taken asking how people would describe an unnamed QB's postseason performance, success, and play if the QB had a W-L record of 11-12, most rational objective people are going to use words like average, pedestrian, mediocre, perhaps even poor. If you added that the QB had a 1-2 W-L record in the Super Bowl and threw 3 TDs and 4 INTs in those Super Bowls, I don't think you are going to get anyone claiming his performance was better than pedestrian, mediocre, average or poor.

If you think that an 11-12 W-L record in the playoffs, a 1-2 W-L record in the Super Bowl, and/or throwing 3TDs and 4 INTs in the Super Bowl is anything other than pedestrian and mediocre, then I would hate to see what you consider pedestrian and mediocre.

[MOtorboat]

You're telling me that Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, John Elway and Peyton Manning are pedestrian. Tim Tebow, Mark Sanchez, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams are great.

Do you know how incredibly stupid that premise is?

[7DnBrnc53]

Those people sound like huge idiots.

You think that those people (the ones that said that Elway wouldn't have been HOF without his SB wins) are idiots, you should see some of the people I debate with on message boards.

They say things like:

1. Elway's 1987 MVP was fradulent.

2. Elway was overrated because of his stats under Reeves.

3. When I mention how Dan's system held Elway back, they say stupid stuff like "Dan Reeves made Chris Chandler in Atlanta".

4. Another person said that Elway held back Vance Johnson and Mark Jackson from being Hall of Famers.

[chazoe60]

I see MN is making a fool of himself yet again. :laugh:

[MNPatsFan]

You're telling me that Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, John Elway and Peyton Manning are pedestrian. Tim Tebow, Mark Sanchez, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams are great.

Do you know how incredibly stupid that premise is?Are you asking me if they were pedestrian in the POSTSEASON, then I say:
Dan Fouts - Don't know because I don't know his postseason record and stats.;
Dan Marino - Yes in the playoffs he was pedestrian with a W-L record of 8-10;
John Elway - No he was not pedestrian in the playoffs with W-L record of 14-8;
Peyton Manning - Yes he has been pedestrian in the playoffs as discussed and supported in my previous posts.

Without doing any research, I don't believe that Tim Tebow, Mark Sanchez, Brad Johnson have great postseason W-L records or stats. I realize that Johnson and Williams won Super Bowls but I believe that they probably have .500 or so winning percentages for their careers. None of them are great postseason QBs or great QBs.

If you are asking me if they were pedestrian QBs considering their REGULAR SEASON AND POSTSEASON performances then NO I don't consider any of them pedestrian.

What do you consider postseason winning records of 8-10 or 11-12? If Kyle Orton, Brady Quinn, etc. had an 8-10 or 11-12 postseason winning record would you consider them anything more than pedestrian in the playoffs?

I think that you are having difficulty separating and analyzing the QBs solely based on their postseason accomplishments while excluding any consideration of their regular season accomplishments.

[MOtorboat]

I think that you are having difficulty separating and analyzing the QBs solely based on their postseason accomplishments while excluding any consideration of their regular season accomplishments.

Nope.

I see a guy whose played in three Super Bowls, won one, played in five AFC Championship games, won three, leads all quarterbacks ever in playoff yards, is third amongst sure fire HOFers since 1980 in playoff touchdowns, and is second in quarterback rating in that same group.

None of those things are pedestrian. And losses in the playoffs can't trump that.

You wanted to call Manning pedestrian. You came in with that opinion, without any supporting facts other than, supposedly, other people's opinions. When shown the facts, you changed the parameters of your argument and have mentioned nothing but playoff losses since. It's a lame argument.

[GEM]

GEM, are you nuts?:shocked:

I will leave Elway out of this discussion, but Manning didn't take teams of nobodies and make somebody of them. Manning has been surrounded by a number of Pro Bowl and all-pro players since his third season or so in the NFL, especially on offense. Manning's record and stats stand for themselves. He is probably the GOAT regular season QB, but when he gets into the playoffs he becomes a very average or pedestrian QB. If Manning wasn't a Bronco now, you wouldn't have made that absurd statement.;)

I agree with you however, that Terry rode on the coattails of his Iron Curtain Defense and his running offense.

In his later years with Indy yes. In his first years with that team, they were one of the worst teams and had been for quite awhile.

And don't tell me what I would and wouldn't say. You haven't a clue. I hated Manning before he got here. Because he was so freaking good. I hated what HE did to my team year in and year out. It wasn't the Colts that made Roc Alexander look like a blundering idiot, that was all Manning.

He also made a lot of players on offense look a whole lot better than they are....Dallas Clark (what has he done in Balt?) that WR that went to the Redskin\s (Can't even remember his name), Collie (What did he do in Dallas?) Stokely anywhere other than with Manning? Jeff Saturday...how did he do in GB? I'll give you Harrison and Wayne, after that huge falloff.

[GEM]

All I have got from this is that PFM is a hall of Fame qb. Perhaps not number one in the post season, but in the discussion

All I got is that once again MN gets all uppity about Manning. Something about the big forehead really bugs the guy. :laugh:

[MNPatsFan]

Nope.

I see a guy whose played in three Super Bowls, won one, played in five AFC Championship games, won three, leads all quarterbacks ever in playoff yards, is third amongst sure fire HOFers since 1980 in playoff touchdowns, and is second in quarterback rating in that same group.

None of those things are pedestrian. And losses in the playoffs can't trump that.

You wanted to call Manning pedestrian. You came in with that opinion, without any supporting facts other than, supposedly, other people's opinions. When shown the facts, you changed the parameters of your argument and have mentioned nothing but playoff losses since. It's a lame argument.I never changed the f*cking parameters Motor. In my original post I identified W-L records. Moreover, you cite some stats but leave out that Manning is also 7th out of 9th amongst sure fire HOF's since 1980 playoffs in W-L percentage, is tied for throwing the second most INTs. Moreover, I didn't watch the entire SB, but I believe that Manning had 2 Ints, 0 TDs, and average yardage passing in the 1st half when the game was in the balance. It was only after the game was out of reach that Manning racked up his TD, a number of his completions and yardage.

Frequently the number of INTs a QB throws has a more direct correlation to wins and losses than TDs and definitely more than yardage. At least Peyton has thrown a high number of TDs to go along with his yardage and his INTs.

[MOtorboat]

I never changed the f*cking parameters Motor. In my original post I identified W-L records. Moreover, you cite some stats but leave out that Manning is also 7th out of 9th amongst sure fire HOF's since 1980 playoffs in W-L percentage, is tied for throwing the second most INTs. Moreover, I didn't watch the entire SB, but I believe that Manning had 2 Ints, 0 TDs, and average yardage passing in the 1st half when the game was in the balance. It was only after the game was out of reach that Manning racked up his TD, a number of his completions and yardage.

Frequently the number of INTs a QB throws has a more direct correlation to wins and losses than TDs and definitely more than yardage. At least Peyton has thrown a high number of TDs to go along with his yardage and his INTs.

Thus changing the parameters of your argument. You said other elite quarterbacks don't see their stats and win/loss record dip as much as he does. When showed that you're wildly incorrect you focused on only wins and losses, and even that doesn't dip wildly, because that's the only stats (except for some INT rate that you didn't compare to other quarterbacks) that you've used since. It's a bad argument.

And now touchdowns don't even matter? WTF?

Not to mention the idiocy that is judging a quarterback solely on losses. I haven't even brought that up.

[MOtorboat]

And let's talk INT rates:

Manning, regular season, 2.6%
Manning, post season, 2.6%

Brady, regular season, 2%
Brady, post season, 2.3%

So, by that logic, Brady gets much worse in the playoffs than Manning does.

[GEM]

Booya!!!

I think I heard an echo of FIIIIINISH HIM!! in there somewhere. :laugh:

[Northman]

Booya!!!

I think I heard an echo of FIIIIINISH HIM!! in there somewhere. :laugh:


Flawless Victory

[MNPatsFan]

And let's talk INT rates:

Manning, regular season, 2.6%
Manning, post season, 2.7% [fixed it for you because you didn't properly round the number 2.69]

Brady, regular season, 2%
Brady, post season, 2.3%

So, by that logic, Brady gets much worse in the playoffs than Manning does.Yes Brady's INT rate increases more than Manning's, but his TD rates decrease less than Manning's in the postseason:

Manning, regular season, 5.8%
Manning, post season, 4.2%

Brady, regular season, 5.5%
Brady, regular season, 4.5%

So Manning's INT rate increases by .1% while his TD rate drops by 1.6%.
Brady's INT rate increases by .3% while his TD rate only drops by 1.0%

Of course I have no idea how to correlate these ratios and stats to one another and then interpret the resulting stats.:laugh:

I would like to point out, however, that both Manning's regular season and postseason INT rates are greater than either of Brady's INT rates.;)

:laugh:

[MOtorboat]

Yes Brady's INT rate increases more than Manning's, but his TD rates decrease less than Manning's in the postseason:

Manning, regular season, 5.8%
Manning, post season, 4.2%

Brady, regular season, 5.5%
Brady, regular season, 4.5%

So Manning's INT rate increases by .1% while his TD rate drops by 1.6%.
Brady's INT rate increases by .3% while his TD rate only drops by 1.0%

Of course I have no idea how to correlate these ratios and stats to one another and then interpret the resulting stats.:laugh:

I would like to point out, however, that both Manning's regular season and postseason INT rates are greater than either of Brady's INT rates.;)

:laugh:

Touchdowns don't mean that much, remember?