PDA

View Full Version : Should we be worried?



Shutdown
09-15-2009, 01:31 AM
I am concerned and want to know what you guys think..

First. Knowshon - 8 for 19 2.4avg

Thats BAD! I mean yeah, he is probably a little rusty and just needs to feel the offense out a bit more through reps in practice but shouldn't a talented back just be able to make things happen? I am a little worried.

Second. Ayers - LOST! Missing assignments, not applying pressure.

It hurts to see that. When you see a guy like Maualuga making an immediate impact or Orakapo. I'm not going to start cutting yet but I really hope we see some production out of them next week against the s**t stains.


On a positive note Fonzo looks great.

Northman
09-15-2009, 01:34 AM
Im not worried because i know we arent going to the playoffs nor are we winning the Super Bowl. Get ready for some pretty ugly football this year and if your not prepared, well i cant help ya. This team has undergone a lot of changes and its not going to be fixed overnight. As for the rookies, after 1 game im not sure im going to dump on them just yet. As for Orakapo and Mauluga, both of their respective teams are 0-1 not too mention both have better all around defenses than the Broncos. Dont commit suicide just yet.

Shazam!
09-15-2009, 01:36 AM
This team needs time for it all to come together. They'll get better as the season wears on.

I cannot complain about the Defense at all at this time. Sure, they broke late yesterday, but the last two years Denver never would've won a game by scoring 12 points. The lowest before that I think was the KC game in 2006, 9-6 I think?

They'll be ok and Orton will get better, more comfortable and confident. There's a lot of new parts in place. They'll beat Cleveland I think. One game at a time and hope they get better is all I can ask for.

Shutdown
09-15-2009, 01:56 AM
Honestly, I'm not as worried about Moreno than I am Ayers. I haven't seen anything good from Ayers. We have a great group of guys out there on the field and I am wishing Ayers steps up and helps them out.

dogfish
09-15-2009, 02:35 AM
not even a little bit. . . it's way, way, waaaaay too early to be worried about rookies!

it's not a bit uncommon for guys to take a few YEARS to adjust to the NFL, let alone a few weeks. . . it's the nastiest, fastest, most physical sports league in the world-- not everyone is ready to step right in and perform at a high level from the get-go. . .

i think moreno will be FINE-- the kid's a talent, give him a few games to get his feet under him and completely healthy, and the production will be there. . .

ayers is a bit of a different story. . . the guy was a one year starter in college, and he's being asked to adjust not only to the speed and competition of the next level, but also to adapt to a completely different position. . . . that generally doesn't happen over night. . . shit, reigning defensive MVP james harrison was in the league four years before he even won a starting job-- he got cut two or three times, including being released from baltimore's practice squad. . . and he ended up developing into one of the league's most dominant players. . . the steelers are hands down the sport's best at developing 3-4 OLBs-- look at some of the other beasts they've produced recently. . . neither lamarr woodley nor joey porter started a single game as a rookie-- woodley had four sacks, porter had two. . .

it's not an easy transition, and if you expect overnight results from ayers you're almost certainly going to be disappointed. . . it's not like i don't really want to see him out there killing it also, but it was probably never a very realistic expectation. . . he's technically raw and badly in need of some time in the weight room. . . i did see his number around the ball a fair bit last week even if he didn't make any plays, but i pretty much consider anything we get from him this year as a bonus at this point. . . .

edit: some other notable 3-4 OLBs:

adalius thomas - 0 starts and not a single tackle or sack his rookie year
mike vrabel - 0 starts his first four years, not more than 2.5 sacks any of those seasons
calvin pace - 16 starts his rookie year (for a very bad team)-- no sacks -- 1 start the next two years
shaun phillips - o starts his rookie year, 3 starts his second year
greg ellis - 16 starts his rookie year, 3 sacks

of course, not all of those guys started their career at LB, but you get the point. . . ocassionally an absolute freak like ware or merriman comes along and kicks ass right out of the gate due to their overwhelming physical gifts (or chemical gifts, in merriman's case :huh: ), but it's not the typical developmental curve for a college end transitioning to OLB, at all. . . . patience, hard work and plenty of good coaching is required. . . .

Magnificent Seven
09-15-2009, 02:43 AM
Relax! It was everyone's first game. Everyone was rusty. I am referring to all NFL teams.

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 03:26 AM
As was stated above ayers changing from a hand on the ground DE. To an OLB that palys in space. Major difference in exprinece.

As for malauga he stepped into a starting spot at his old position on an established defense that knew the scheme. Had he been on last years team for us he would have stepped right in and played well.

As for moreno just how much time has he got to play so far and is his knee 110%. I suspect he will see spot duty till the bye week and if he is healthy then bucky will be relieving him.

Right now the game is in warp speed to them and will slow down soon.

Tned
09-15-2009, 07:17 AM
I am concerned and want to know what you guys think..

First. Knowshon - 8 for 19 2.4avg

Thats BAD! I mean yeah, he is probably a little rusty and just needs to feel the offense out a bit more through reps in practice but shouldn't a talented back just be able to make things happen? I am a little worried.

Second. Ayers - LOST! Missing assignments, not applying pressure.

It hurts to see that. When you see a guy like Maualuga making an immediate impact or Orakapo. I'm not going to start cutting yet but I really hope we see some production out of them next week against the s**t stains.


On a positive note Fonzo looks great.

I think it was Mayock that said that in THREE years, Ayers would be considered the best defensive player that came out of the 2009 draft. He didn't say he would be considered the best player drafted this year. Clearly, he thought Ayers was a great talent, and would ultimately be the best defensive player drafted in 2009, but was not as NFL ready as some other defensive players.

Around draft time, there was a lot of talk and examples given, of defensive ends drafted to be OLB's that took one or two years to become an impact player and to get comfortable with the move from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB.

Moreno missed almost all of camp and preseason due to holdout and then injury. So, while there is a small chance he will be a bust, he is universally considered a future RB stud by NFL experts.

broncofaninfla
09-15-2009, 07:46 AM
Moreno and Ayers have my attention right now. Not impressed with either. There are rookies all over the NFL out playing them right now so you can throw the rookie excuse out the door. Maybe they are just slow learners. It's hard to fully judge Moreno because we no longer use the zone blocking scheme with an offensive line that is built for it. We probably won't have an effective running game unless McD switches schemes and waits until next season to re-staff the o line.

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 07:54 AM
I'm not worried about Moreno or Ayers. Given time I believe both of these guys will be solid contributors.

SmilinAssasSin27
09-15-2009, 08:06 AM
Moreno and Ayers have my attention right now. Not impressed with either. There are rookies all over the NFL out playing them right now so you can throw the rookie excuse out the door. Maybe they are just slow learners. It's hard to fully judge Moreno because we no longer use the zone blocking scheme with an offensive line that is built for it. We probably won't have an effective running game unless McD switches schemes and waits until next season to re-staff the o line.

Agreed. I think this next draft may be all about the hogs on both sides of the line.

broncofaninfla
09-15-2009, 08:25 AM
Agreed. I think this next draft may be all about the hogs on both sides of the line.

It's sad when you realize just how good our line was last year in the different scheme. Seems like it would makes more sense to scheme around the players strengths rather than be stubborn about employing a system that was executed somewhere else with bigger slower bodies.

CrazyHorse
09-15-2009, 08:38 AM
It's sad when you realize just how good our line was last year in the different scheme. Seems like it would makes more sense to scheme around the players strengths rather than be stubborn about employing a system that was executed somewhere else with bigger slower bodies.

We had one of the best offensive lines last year with our scheme. I know we lost Kuper but I don't see any reason to change what's worked in the past. If something isn't broke don't fix it. If revamp the line it will only take longer to rebuild the franchise into a championship caliber team.

We need to use what we have while planing and building towards what we want.

broncofaninfla
09-15-2009, 08:46 AM
We had one of the best offensive lines last year with our scheme. I know we lost Kuper but I don't see any reason to change what's worked in the past. If something isn't broke don't fix it. If revamp the line it will only take longer to rebuild the franchise into a championship caliber team.

We need to use what we have while planing and building towards what we want.

Agreed but I'm guessing McD doesn't agree. We barely used zone blocking in the preseason and didn't use it at all against Cinn. I would much rather we stick with what works VERY WELL with these guys and fuze it with his schemes.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 11:23 AM
Still young, but yea, I'm not impressed at all with Moreno. I cannot believe he was touted as the best RB in this class and a franchise back at that. He isn't explosive at all, and he doesn't seem like the kind of RB you can give the ball 25 times and be successful.

IMHO, he's simply a good recieving RB that hopefully can make a play or two when coupled with another really good RB. Good RB to have, but for value as a top 15 RB? Hell no.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 11:25 AM
Agreed but I'm guessing McD doesn't agree. We barely used zone blocking in the preseason and didn't use it at all against Cinn. I would much rather we stick with what works VERY WELL with these guys and fuze it with his schemes.

Denver rarely used the zone blocking scheme last year with Shanahan. Probably moreso than McDaniels has used it this year, but certainly significantly less in recent years, and even showed to be moving away from it in favor of the shotgun.

OldschoolFreak
09-15-2009, 11:28 AM
There are rookies all over the NFL out playing them right now so you can throw the rookie excuse out the door. Maybe they are just slow learners. I

Are you kidding? Did I miss the first month of the season or something? We're talking about one week of football here!

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 12:11 PM
Still young, but yea, I'm not impressed at all with Moreno. I cannot believe he was touted as the best RB in this class and a franchise back at that. He isn't explosive at all, and he doesn't seem like the kind of RB you can give the ball 25 times and be successful.

IMHO, he's simply a good recieving RB that hopefully can make a play or two when coupled with another really good RB. Good RB to have, but for value as a top 15 RB? Hell no.

One game still doesn't make a career nor should it be a reason to criticize his draft position.

dogfish
09-15-2009, 12:22 PM
Still young, but yea, I'm not impressed at all with Moreno. I cannot believe he was touted as the best RB in this class and a franchise back at that. He isn't explosive at all, and he doesn't seem like the kind of RB you can give the ball 25 times and be successful.

IMHO, he's simply a good recieving RB that hopefully can make a play or two when coupled with another really good RB. Good RB to have, but for value as a top 15 RB? Hell no.

you were able to determine all that by watching the first eight carries of his career?


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 12:30 PM
you were able to determine all that by watching the first eight carries of his career?


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:dito:

outdoor_miner
09-15-2009, 12:31 PM
I am concerned and want to know what you guys think..

First. Knowshon - 8 for 19 2.4avg

Thats BAD! I mean yeah, he is probably a little rusty and just needs to feel the offense out a bit more through reps in practice but shouldn't a talented back just be able to make things happen? I am a little worried.

Second. Ayers - LOST! Missing assignments, not applying pressure.

It hurts to see that. When you see a guy like Maualuga making an immediate impact or Orakapo. I'm not going to start cutting yet but I really hope we see some production out of them next week against the s**t stains.


On a positive note Fonzo looks great.

I'm definitely more worried about Ayers. I think Knowshon is going to take a bit of time to get into a groove, but he'll be fine once he learns the offense and is 100% healthy. He's looked good in his touches (better, in my opinion, then his stat line indicates).

As for Ayers - first, I think you're overstating Orakpo's success (Orakpo is a better comparison than Maualuga since both Orakpo and Ayers are transitioning from DE in college to LB). I went to the Skins board yesterday to see how Orakpo did in his first game, and people were calling him the "missing man", and saying that the Skins were crazy to be playing him at linebacker. They wanted him to move back to DE, and were clearly worried about his performance so far.

I think we'll have to be more patient with Ayers. It's encouraging that he's on the field during third downs (so we can assume he's doing something right in practice), but I do agree with your original premise that I would really like to see some flashes from him... A play here or there where he almost gets the sack, or stuffs a run behind the line of scrimmage. And so far - we really haven't seen anything.

As for Alphonso - he looked awesome. If he continues to play like he did yesterday, he easily justifies the trade we made for him...

Kaylore
09-15-2009, 12:35 PM
Dogfish nailed it. I think people were spoiled by Clady and Royal last year and when they see a rookie looking lost his first game they assume there is a problem. There isn't. These are rookies being rookies. D-line has a pretty steep learning curve and changing positions doesn't help.

Moreno has been hurt and isn't used to the pro game speed. Personally I think we should run Buckhalter more. He runs hard every play.

As for the line, the "scheme" isn't the problem.

1. We're missing our best guard. Hochstein was the guy who got beat for the sack on that drive that stalled in the fourth quarter.

2. Ben Hamilton gets beat up by bigger DT's. This was true before this year and so is not scheme related. In fact the Bengals owned him last time we played them at Invesco.

3. The Bengals have dumped a lot of resources into their defense every year and are no scrubs. We have a team learning a new system so the advantage is to the Bengals in those instances.

I do think Orton will need to complete more plays down the middle of the field to get the safeties to back out if we want to keep this offense from being pedestrian all year, but I'd rather him look boring and not turn the ball over then force anything.

The bottom line is the line is fine, they just need Kuper to come back, and until Hamilton moves to center he's going to get owned by big DT's that bull rush because he's too small out there.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 12:42 PM
you were able to determine all that by watching the first eight carries of his career?


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

What's he waiting for then? This ain't the preseason anymore. His first 8 carries of his career left alot to be desired.

12th round pick, I'm expecting some kind of dynamic explosive player, and he looked like the worst one on the field against the Bungals.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Moreno has been hurt and isn't used to the pro game speed. Personally I think we should run Buckhalter more. He runs hard every play.

I agree. Buckhalter looked very good, and alot better than i thought he would look when we signed him.

powderaddict
09-15-2009, 12:45 PM
What's he waiting for then? This ain't the preseason anymore. His first 8 carries of his career left alot to be desired.

12th round pick, I'm expecting some kind of dynamic explosive player, and he looked like the worst one on the field against the Bungals.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

People were calling Mario Williams a bust at the end of his first season, and Kubiak was the biggest idiot ever for not drafting Bush.

Seriously, you expect a rookie that has missed most of TC, most of preseason injured, to come in and light up the scoreboard in his first NFL game???

And you feel these expectations are reasonable?

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 12:51 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

People were calling Mario Williams a bust at the end of his first season, and Kubiak was the biggest idiot ever for not drafting Bush.

Seriously, you expect a rookie that has missed most of TC, most of preseason injured, to come in and light up the scoreboard in his first NFL game???

And you feel these expectations are reasonable?

I expect a rookie RB to come in and contribute right away, like most all of the good ones do.

ROFLCOPTER at comparing the progressional learning curve of a RB to a DE.

He can still turn it on soon, but not a good start for a player who was supposed to "carry the offensive load" for the Broncos this year.

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 12:51 PM
What's he waiting for then? This ain't the preseason anymore. His first 8 carries of his career left alot to be desired.

12th round pick, I'm expecting some kind of dynamic explosive player, and he looked like the worst one on the field against the Bungals.

12th round pick?

I think we're all aware it's not the preseason.

So you expected him to rush for 100 yards on 8 carries?

broncofaninfla
09-15-2009, 12:54 PM
I'm sticking with my scheme analogy and from preseason thru game one I am not impressed with what I've seen with Moreno or Ayers. I am impressed with some of the excuses used to defend them though. There are a lot of good rookies in the NFL this year. I'm sure there will be more as the season progresses and I hope Moreno and Ayers are among that group.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 12:56 PM
12th round pick?

I think we're all aware it's not the preseason.

So you expected him to rush 100 yards on 8 carries?

Thanks for the sematantic clarification that nobody gives a ---- about.

I expect to see something that gives me hope about what the guy can do in the future. Until I see so, I'll just assume I expected too much from the 12th overall pick in the draft.

The guy looks like another good possibly above average RB in the draft. The same kind of RB that you can get in like the 3rd round.

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 12:57 PM
I'm sticking with my scheme analogy and from preseason thru game one I am not impressed with what I've seen with Moreno or Ayers. I am impressed with some of the excuses used to defend them though. There are a lot of good rookies in the NFL this year. I'm sure there will be more as the season progresses and I hope Moreno and Ayers are among that group.

If I'm mistaken Moreno missed a portion of camp and basically all of the preseason.

topscribe
09-15-2009, 12:59 PM
I think it was Mayock that said that in THREE years, Ayers would be considered the best defensive player that came out of the 2009 draft. He didn't say he would be considered the best player drafted this year. Clearly, he thought Ayers was a great talent, and would ultimately be the best defensive player drafted in 2009, but was not as NFL ready as some other defensive players.

Around draft time, there was a lot of talk and examples given, of defensive ends drafted to be OLB's that took one or two years to become an impact player and to get comfortable with the move from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB.

Moreno missed almost all of camp and preseason due to holdout and then injury. So, while there is a small chance he will be a bust, he is universally considered a future RB stud by NFL experts.

You essentially made my point for me. If we are comparing Moreno with
Buckhalter, for instance, we must remember that Buckhalter is a veteran
who has been active with the team since the first OTA. Moreno missed
nearly all of it on the field, and he had exactly three carries in an actual
game prior to last Sunday.

Ayers missed a lot of camp, too, and that was even worse for him because,
converse to Moreno, who is assuming the same position he played in college,
Ayers is learning a new position in a new defense--and without benefit of
several days of camp.

Even Super Mario Williams had a very pedestrian first year, and he wasn't
in a new position.

It would be nice to see them just step in and their talent take over. But we
all know--or should know--it rarely works that way: the Ryan Cladys of the
world are relatively rare.

I'm not worried about them. But I understand. We've had a lot of experience
getting burned in the draft, haven't we? But let's count our blessings: we're
not Raiders fans . . . :nod:

-----

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 01:00 PM
Thanks for the sematantic clarification that nobody gives a ---- about.

I expect to see something that gives me hope about what the guy can do in the future. Until I see so, I'll just assume I expected too much from the 12th overall pick in the draft.

The guy looks like another good possibly above average RB in the draft. The same kind of RB that you can get in like the 3rd round.

You're more than welcome.

You're more than welcome to assume but I'll wait and see how it plays rather saying the guy is already a bust after one game.

powderaddict
09-15-2009, 01:02 PM
If I'm mistaken Moreno missed a portion of camp and basically all of the preseason.

And is coming off a sprained knee. All that doesn't matter. He was picked #12 dammit, WHERE IS MAH 1500 YARDS

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 01:03 PM
You essentially made my point for me. If we are comparing Moreno with
Buckhalter, for instance, we must remember that Buckhalter is a veteran
who has been active with the team since the first OTA. Moreno missed
nearly all of it on the field, and he had exactly three carries in an actual
game prior to last Sunday.

Ayers missed a lot of camp, too, and that was even worse for him because,
converse to Moreno, who is assuming the same position he played in college,
Ayers is learning a new position in a new defense--and without benefit of
several days of camp.

Even Super Mario Williams had a very pedestrian first year, and he wasn't
in a new position.

It would be nice to see them just step in and their talent take over. But we
all know--or should know--it rarely works that way: the Ryan Cladys of the
world are relatively rare.

I'm not worried about them. But I understand. We've had a lot of experience
getting burned in the draft, haven't we? But let's count our blessings: we're
not Raiders fans . . . :nod:

-----

And Williams wasn't trying to learn a completely new position.

topscribe
09-15-2009, 01:05 PM
And is coming off a sprained knee. All that doesn't matter. He was picked #12 dammit, WHERE IS MAH 1500 YARDS

Enjoy:

RTza50UcbGo



:D



-----

Kaylore
09-15-2009, 01:06 PM
People also need to understand what Moreno brings. He is a good back that can make people miss, but more impressive is his ability to pick up a blitz and his receiving skills. Let's give the guy a little time to get settle before we freak out.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 01:07 PM
You're more than welcome.

You're more than welcome to assume but I'll wait and see how it plays rather saying the guy is already a bust after one game.

LMAO nobody's labeling him a bust let's not completely overreact.

I hope I'm wrong, I loved the guy coming out of college, but I haven't really seen anything that impresses me about him, and that includes his 40 time. If he's a chain mover that can average 4.5 ypc, great. But so can Correll Buckhalter in our offense.

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2009, 01:08 PM
Enjoy:

RTza50UcbGo



:D



-----

Aww man. Please don't remind me why you don't take RB's in the first round, unless their game is a carbon copy of Adrian Peterson.

Dean
09-15-2009, 01:22 PM
Even Super Mario Williams had a very pedestrian first year, and he wasn't
in a new position.


-----

I understand your point but I am not sure Mario's stats were pedestrian. He had 47 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, and 4 passes defensed. Maybe pedestrian for the #1 pick but that would IMO be a very high expectation.

Crush05
09-15-2009, 01:33 PM
And with all of this being said about our beloved T.D. why is he not getting the love he deserves for the H.O.F.?:confused:

broncofaninfla
09-15-2009, 01:48 PM
People also need to understand what Moreno brings. He is a good back that can make people miss, but more impressive is his ability to pick up a blitz and his receiving skills. Let's give the guy a little time to get settle before we freak out.

I'm not freaking out about Moreno, just not impressed at all yet. I would probably freak out if we didn't have Buck and Hillis to fall back on. Both are more productive backs at this stage.

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 01:48 PM
LMAO nobody's labeling him a bust let's not completely overreact.

I hope I'm wrong, I loved the guy coming out of college, but I haven't really seen anything that impresses me about him, and that includes his 40 time. If he's a chain mover that can average 4.5 ypc, great. But so can Correll Buckhalter in our offense.

LMAO! You're the one alluding to him already as being a bust .

topscribe
09-15-2009, 02:06 PM
LMAO nobody's labeling him a bust let's not completely overreact.

I hope I'm wrong, I loved the guy coming out of college, but I haven't really seen anything that impresses me about him, and that includes his 40 time. If he's a chain mover that can average 4.5 ypc, great. But so can Correll Buckhalter in our offense.

Silk, Terrell Davis, who had a slower 40 time than Moreno's proved that the 40 time doesn't make plays, didn't he?

Nonetheless, please allow me to assuage your worries with this: http://tinyurl.com/cl5aw4.

Notice Moreno's low time. He may not be quite as slow as reported . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
09-15-2009, 02:09 PM
Its too early. ITs too early to be disappointed in him or excited about him.

personally.. I had two feelings about drafting him. One was pure excitement because its a nice thought to have that kind of talent in the backfield. Two was irritation because our DL sucks, and RB is one of the easiest positions in the NFL to do a plug-n-play with lower round talent. If we were just a couple players from being true contenders, I would understand the pick.....but we aren't. If we didn't have ANY talent on offense, I can understand the pick.....but we do.

Either way.... its just too early to decide on him yet... WAyyyyyyyyy too early.

topscribe
09-15-2009, 02:13 PM
I understand your point but I am not sure Mario's stats were pedestrian. He had 47 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, and 4 passes defensed. Maybe pedestrian for the #1 pick but that would IMO be a very high expectation.

Yes, I should have qualified that as "pedestrian for what was expected of him."

Thanks. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

CoachChaz
09-15-2009, 02:20 PM
Its too early. ITs too early to be disappointed in him or excited about him.

personally.. I had two feelings about drafting him. One was pure excitement because its a nice thought to have that kind of talent in the backfield. Two was irritation because our DL sucks, and RB is one of the easiest positions in the NFL to do a plug-n-play with lower round talent. If we were just a couple players from being true contenders, I would understand the pick.....but we aren't. If we didn't have ANY talent on offense, I can understand the pick.....but we do.

Either way.... its just too early to decide on him yet... WAyyyyyyyyy too early.

I'll disagree. There are a few good low round RB's, but rarely are they elite. Conversely, there are alot more low round RB's that do nothing but ST or sell cell phones than there are higher round guys.

LRtagger
09-15-2009, 02:25 PM
You guys sure got spoiled by Clady and Royal. They are both anomalies. Rookies generally don't produce right away.

To top off the transition to the NFL, Ayers is playing an entirely new position. It is going to take him time to learn what he is doing and adjust to the speed of the NFL.

As for Moreno, he is coming off an injury. I was not suprised to see him run gingerly and not hit holes hard. He was trying too hard to get to the perimeter instead of hitting a hole. That is typical of not only a rookie RB, but a guy coming off a knee injury.

Both guys will be fine.

Shutdown
09-15-2009, 02:30 PM
Silk, Terrell Davis, who had a slower 40 time than Moreno's proved that the 40 time doesn't make plays, didn't he?

Nonetheless, please allow me to assuage your worries with this: http://tinyurl.com/cl5aw4.

Notice Moreno's low time. He may not be quite as slow as reported . . .

-----

Davis was a great back, but lets be honest. Our O-line was just nasty. He didn't get touched for at least 6 yrds every time they ran.

I'm not freaking out about Moreno. My gut tells me that he will get it together.

NameUsedBefore
09-15-2009, 02:30 PM
I'm pretty high on Moreno as a player so I have a hard time seeing him not coming around eventually.

I know it's the whole "they're rookies" thing, but what I felt about Moss when we drafted him is just what I think of Ayers. I simply don't like these tweener players much, especially if they kinda erupted onto the scene instead of through consistency.

dogfish
09-15-2009, 03:03 PM
I know it's the whole "they're rookies" thing, but what I felt about Moss when we drafted him is just what I think of Ayers. I simply don't like these tweener players much

not a big fan of guys like merriman and ware, huh?

Ravage!!!
09-15-2009, 03:09 PM
Davis was a great back, but lets be honest. Our O-line was just nasty. He didn't get touched for at least 6 yrds every time they ran.

I'm not freaking out about Moreno. My gut tells me that he will get it together.

Sorry.. but Davis earned his title as a 'great back' ....good OL or not. He wasn't a system back (there was not "Denver always has great backs, before he got here)...and he wasn't a back that was given yards.

I understand that you may not be attempting to insult TD, but I take it that way anytime someone tries to imply it was our 'system' or 'surrounding cast' tht made him.

Slick
09-15-2009, 03:11 PM
not a big fan of guys like merriman and ware, huh?

Sure, you use those two examples. For every Ware, there's 5 of Jarvis Moss.

That being said, I hope Mayock was right about Ayers.

dogfish
09-15-2009, 03:17 PM
Sure, you use those two examples. For every Ware, there's 5 of Jarvis Moss.

That being said, I hope Mayock was right about Ayers.

my point was that the vast majority of 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were considered "tweeners" before the draft, NOT that every tweener is likely to turn out like D-ware. . . there just aren't many college teams that run pure 34 fronts-- if you want effective edge rushers for the 34, you almost have to draft those tweener type college DEs who are a little light in the pants to play with their hand in the dirt on a fulltime basis at the next level. . .

off the top of my head, i can't think of another solid OLB prospect in this year's draft class besides clint sintim that wouldn't be looked at as a tweener. . . the label fits orakpo, everette brown, connor barwin, michael johnson and the rest just as well as it does ayers. . .

Slick
09-15-2009, 03:24 PM
my point was that the vast majority of 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were considered "tweeners" before the draft, NOT that every tweener is likely to turn out like D-ware. . . there just aren't many college teams that run pure 34 fronts-- if you want effective edge rushers for the 34, you almost have to draft those tweener type college DEs who are a little light in the pants to play with their hand in the dirt on a fulltime basis at the next level. . .

off the top of my head, i can't think of another solid OLB prospect in this year's draft class besides clint sintim that wouldn't be looked at as a tweener. . . the label fits orakpo, everette brown, connor barwin, michael johnson and the rest just as well as it does ayers. . .

well, why didn't you say that in the first place? :D

powderaddict
09-15-2009, 03:24 PM
not a big fan of guys like merriman

nope

topscribe
09-15-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm pretty high on Moreno as a player so I have a hard time seeing him not coming around eventually.

I know it's the whole "they're rookies" thing, but what I felt about Moss when we drafted him is just what I think of Ayers. I simply don't like these tweener players much, especially if they kinda erupted onto the scene instead of through consistency.


Sure, you use those two examples. For every Ware, there's 5 of Jarvis Moss.

That being said, I hope Mayock was right about Ayers.


not a big fan of guys like merriman and ware, huh?

Ayers is just getting started, and Moss is showing he's not yet done . . .

-----

dogfish
09-15-2009, 03:27 PM
well, why didn't you say that in the first place? :D

you're supposed to be able to figure that out on your own-- c'mon slick, i rely on you for this sort of stuff. . . .


:laugh:

Slick
09-15-2009, 03:31 PM
you're supposed to be able to figure that out on your own-- c'mon slick, i rely on you for this sort of stuff. . . .


:laugh::bandit:



Ayers is just getting started, and Moss is showing he's not yet done . . .

-----
I hope you're right Top. I've not soured on Ayers. It's way too early to tell, but I'm a lot more pessimistic about Jarvis.

Ravage!!!
09-15-2009, 03:32 PM
I'll disagree. There are a few good low round RB's, but rarely are they elite. Conversely, there are alot more low round RB's that do nothing but ST or sell cell phones than there are higher round guys.

I'm betting I can find about as many backs in the NFL taht were taken after the first round that are doing well in the NFL than first round drafted guys, and feel confident I can do that for every season. AP is a freaking MAN... hard to compare him to anyone. But Maurice Drew-Jones wasn't a top pick.

Reggie Bush was a top pick, but Michael Turner was a 5th rounder.

Matt Forte and Portis were 2nd rounders...

DeAngelo Williams was a first rounder, but

Frank Gore, Steve Slaton, Kevin Smith and Brian Westbrook were 3rd rounders

Brandon Jacobs and Marion Barber were fourth rounders.

Darren McFadden, Steven Jackson, Joseph Addai, Larry Johnson, and Ronnie Brown were first rounders,

Ryan Grant, Willie Parker, and Pierre Thomas were undrafted.


I understand what you mean by getting "elite" talent. That can be said for all positions and why we draft by team in order. But when it comes to RBs, I personally think you are able to get better talent in later rounds... not to mention its a position that is much easier to learn and get INTo the game faster than every other position on offense. Then you have the fact that most RB's careers are shorter...thus I hate using first round money on a normally short career position.

topscribe
09-15-2009, 03:38 PM
:bandit:
I hope you're right Top. I've not soured on Ayers. It's way too early to tell, but I'm a lot more pessimistic about Jarvis.

I didn't make any predictions. All I did was to point out that Ayers hasn't had
the chance to show anything, and that Moss is still one of the 53. So, after
Crowder, we have one down and two to go.

We'll see . . .

-----

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Davis was a great back, but lets be honest. Our O-line was just nasty. He didn't get touched for at least 6 yrds every time they ran.

I'm not freaking out about Moreno. My gut tells me that he will get it together.


most folks in the draft touted Moreno as being the next LT.. and tat SAN was ready willing to take him a few spots after we did..

so the worst case scenario think of Moreno as the next NON SAN RB, that would have run all over us....

I suspect one his knee is back to 100% he will be playing well for us..

Slick
09-15-2009, 03:50 PM
I didn't make any predictions. All I did was to point out that Ayers hasn't had
the chance to show anything, and that Moss is still one of the 53. So, after
Crowder, we have one down and two to go.

We'll see . . .

-----

One thing's for sure, I think Nolan has a better shot at getting something out of a player like Ayers or Moss than any other former Denver d-coordinator not named Joe Collier.

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 04:08 PM
Sure, you use those two examples. For every Ware, there's 5 of Jarvis Moss.

That being said, I hope Mayock was right about Ayers.

You can the same for player can play at their natural position. For every Ryan Clady there's a Tony Mandrich.

honz
09-15-2009, 04:46 PM
They are both busts...plane and simpel.

dogfish
09-15-2009, 04:48 PM
They are both busts...plane and simpel.

we should trade both of them for one seventh rounder and a broken-down JUGS machine. . . .

topscribe
09-15-2009, 04:51 PM
They are both busts...plane and simpel.

I hope you're just being facetious because I would hate to think of you as a
person who casts judgment on an individual before that individual has a
chance to prove himself . . .

-----

roomemp
09-15-2009, 05:01 PM
I hope you're just being facetious because I would hate to think of you as a
person who casts judgment on an individual before that individual has a
chance to prove himself . . .

-----

Knowshon is a bust face it.......If he hasn't gotten it by now (his 10th carry in the NFL) He will NEVER get it :tsk:

dogfish
09-15-2009, 05:02 PM
I hope you're just being facetious because I would hate to think of you as a
person who casts judgment on an individual before that individual has a
chance to prove himself . . .

-----

honz isn't facetious-- he's just a complete idiot. . .

honz
09-15-2009, 05:03 PM
honz isn't facetious-- he's just a complete idiot. . .
Post reported. Feelings hurt.

honz
09-15-2009, 05:05 PM
I hope you're just being facetious because I would hate to think of you as a
person who casts judgment on an individual before that individual has a
chance to prove himself . . .

-----

I thought my spellings of plain and simple would convey the sarcasm, but yes I ams being facetious.

Day1BroncoFan
09-15-2009, 05:05 PM
Let's change his name to KnoShow.

Seriously, not enough has been done to even consider what he can do yet so no, I am not worried about him or Ayers yet. I am more worried about Royals returns than either of those two. :D

topscribe
09-15-2009, 05:16 PM
I thought my spellings of plain and simple would convey the sarcasm, but yes I ams being facetious.

Are you kidding? Considering the general spelling level on this board, that
doesn't tell me anything, except that it is misspelled. :laugh:

-----

Day1BroncoFan
09-15-2009, 05:23 PM
I thought my spellings of plain and simple would convey the sarcasm, but yes I ams being facetious.

I saw that one post and wondered if I should be worried or not. :D

Shazam!
09-15-2009, 05:25 PM
I can't believe everyone's worrying that Rookies aren't producing. Come on now.

We should all be praising the defense that appears to be even moderately good.

shank
09-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Should we be worried?
no.

Superchop 7
09-15-2009, 05:44 PM
The only position on offense that worries me is QB.

that being said,

My draft was better than your draft Josh.

Just sayin.

Day1BroncoFan
09-15-2009, 05:47 PM
The only position on offense that worries me is QB.

that being said,

My draft was better than your draft Josh.

Just sayin.

Which one of the 32 NFL teams were you drafting for?

Shazam!
09-15-2009, 05:56 PM
My draft was better than your draft Josh.

Just sayin.

Josh knows more about football and the Broncos than you even if you lived to be 1,000.

Just sayin.

NameUsedBefore
09-15-2009, 08:55 PM
not a big fan of guys like merriman and ware, huh?

They were both drafted as pass-rushing linebackers. Moss and Ayers were defensive-ends in college and both are fleeting between linebacker and end. Their athleticism put them at defensive end in the first place because that's where they fit; the problem was that they don't really make the weight and strength for the NFL so then teams try to take players like that and move 'em around.

Making a linebacker into a pass-rusher is pretty easy; making a defensive-end into some kind of linebacker is not. It's like Matt Lepsis converting from TE to tackle. Can it happen? Obviously. But it's not as easy as, say, converting a TE into a WR or vice versa. Some roles can be switched around easier than others. Tossing DE's into LB roles has never appealed to me. It says he's not good enough to just be an end so we'll try to throw in some LB, but since he doesn't have the athleticism for it he wont be that great of a LB...

honz
09-15-2009, 09:06 PM
Dumervil seems to be doing okay as a LB. Darrell Reid too...

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 09:08 PM
Dumervil seems to be doing okay as a LB. Darrell Reid too...


but he has also had a couple of years in the NFL to adjust to the speed of the game..

he/they have a clue to what happens next during the week most of the rookies do not know where the urinal is yet..

dogfish
09-15-2009, 09:59 PM
They were both drafted as pass-rushing linebackers. Moss and Ayers were defensive-ends in college and both are fleeting between linebacker and end.

wut?

:confused:


ware and merriman were both defensive ends in college, just like ayers and moss. . . they may have been drafted to play linebacker, but it's not the position they played in college. . . .

seriously, name me the last quality NFL 3-4 OLB who wasn't primarily a defensive end in college. . . . the vast majority of 34 outside 'backers at this level are converted ends. . .

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 10:34 PM
I'll disagree. There are a few good low round RB's, but rarely are they elite. Conversely, there are alot more low round RB's that do nothing but ST or sell cell phones than there are higher round guys.


you see everyone still thinks that mike can turn anyone into a 1000 yard rusher and we all know where that has gotten us since 1999..


we never should have to activate someone that has been cell phone guy the week before..

TXBRONC
09-15-2009, 10:57 PM
They were both drafted as pass-rushing linebackers. Moss and Ayers were defensive-ends in college and both are fleeting between linebacker and end. Their athleticism put them at defensive end in the first place because that's where they fit; the problem was that they don't really make the weight and strength for the NFL so then teams try to take players like that and move 'em around.

Making a linebacker into a pass-rusher is pretty easy; making a defensive-end into some kind of linebacker is not. It's like Matt Lepsis converting from TE to tackle. Can it happen? Obviously. But it's not as easy as, say, converting a TE into a WR or vice versa. Some roles can be switched around easier than others. Tossing DE's into LB roles has never appealed to me. It says he's not good enough to just be an end so we'll try to throw in some LB, but since he doesn't have the athleticism for it he wont be that great of a LB...

Merriman and Ware were both defensive ends in college.

horsepig
09-15-2009, 11:20 PM
Why all the bitching about defensive players?

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 11:21 PM
my point was that the vast majority of 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were considered "tweeners" before the draft, NOT that every tweener is likely to turn out like D-ware. . . there just aren't many college teams that run pure 34 fronts-- if you want effective edge rushers for the 34, you almost have to draft those tweener type college DEs who are a little light in the pants to play with their hand in the dirt on a fulltime basis at the next level. . .
off the top of my head, i can't think of another solid OLB prospect in this year's draft class besides clint sintim that wouldn't be looked at as a tweener. . . the label fits orakpo, everette brown, connor barwin, michael johnson and the rest just as well as it does ayers. . .


wut?

:confused:


ware and merriman were both defensive ends in college, just like ayers and moss. . . they may have been drafted to play linebacker, but it's not the position they played in college. . . .

seriously, name me the last quality NFL 3-4 OLB who wasn't primarily a defensive end in college. . . . the vast majority of 34 outside 'backers at this level are converted ends. . .




Merriman and Ware were both defensive ends in college.

lets hope he got it..

smith49
09-15-2009, 11:48 PM
well, im going to refer everyone back to dogfish's first post in this thread. i think he hit the nail on the head. the only thing i could add is to say, why all the worry about the d? i think that so far, through the first game and the pre season they have looked pretty good for the most part. i honestly thought that they would either do what they did, or get lit up by the bengals. happy that it was the first. i think we should start worrying more about wether our qb is going to ever go verticle, and when and if he does is marshall going to alligator it the rest of the season or is he going to get his shit straight? that is where my worries are, the rest looks a lot more promissing then i thought it was going to for sure.

Dman444
09-16-2009, 01:08 AM
Agreed. I think this next draft may be all about the hogs on both sides of the line.

Hey man, did you go to UT? I just graduated last May.

Back to the topic.

I'm willing to give Ayers three years before I'll call him a bust. He is a one year wonder in college. (I'm friends with a player that was on the team with him and he was saying The first couple years Ayers did not put the necessary work in to succeed, he thought he'd get by on athleticism alone. He busted his ass the last year, so let's hope he continues that trend.) Coming into the league as a rookie defensive end is hard enough let alone switching to a backer. Doom seems to have made the transition, but I think he's a slightly more cerebral player.

I wasn't too thrilled with the Moreno pick, but I think it could turn out pretty well for us. The only thing that scares me is his injuries. I think he was injured in college a bunch. I would have preferred us take someone like Ward and Buckhalter in the off season and draft two defensive players, but alas hindsight is 20/20. I think he is going to be a good back, but as long as Buckhalter is playing well I say we keep him in, plus I think Moreno might still be a little banged up.

As of right now it looks like Smith could be our most valuable rookie. I like Smith and I think he will end up replacing Champ in the future, very well may be next year if Champ doesn't restructure. Our secondary is old right now and we're going to have a lot of reworking to do in a few years.

Shazam!
09-16-2009, 01:13 AM
Our secondary is old right now and we're going to have a lot of reworking to do in a few years.

The secondary is veteran and experienced, something this D needed terribly so I'm ok with it. Lynch's leadership was missed, and Dawkins can bring the wood just as good. He was a good pick up. very impressed with the D thus far, hope it keeps up.

frenchfan
09-16-2009, 01:20 AM
Im not worried because i know we arent going to the playoffs nor are we winning the Super Bowl. Get ready for some pretty ugly football this year and if your not prepared, well i cant help ya. This team has undergone a lot of changes and its not going to be fixed overnight. As for the rookies, after 1 game im not sure im going to dump on them just yet. As for Orakapo and Mauluga, both of their respective teams are 0-1 not too mention both have better all around defenses than the Broncos. Dont commit suicide just yet.Great post North...

It's not time to be worried... We all know we are rebuilding and we can't have great expectations yet...

Give some time to the rookies (Head coach included) and new players. That was just the 1st game of a new era... We can't make conclusions so easily...
Why are people not worried about the way Pats won too? After all, it was a game they shouldn't have won, no?

Our O didn't look great obviously... but I won't kill Orton, Moreno & Co yet... It's a learning process and it will may be ugly... I hope we'll improve throughout the season...

On a positive, it seems we have put some D back in Denver... Bengals O was a good test IMO, no? It's too early to make conclusions, but that was good to see.

All I want is to see improvement through the season and HEART... I expect each player to give all they have on the field... I want them to play and to work hard... I want to see a TEAM.
Talent is great, but it's not everything... I know that when people work hard and give 100% (or more) of them, things happen...

Just my 2 cents...

denbroncofan26
09-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Was I the only fan that was screaming at the game on Sunday "USE HILLIS!!" "WHERE"S HILLIS??!"

Elevation inc
09-16-2009, 03:33 AM
Cincy had the 12th ranked defense last year, and added even more beef to it this year, they are a stout defensive unit. its no suprise to me morneo looked off after all that time...and if you remeber his 3 carries in the san fran pre-season game he looked uber explosive, yesterday he looked tenative....knee injuries can do that, i belive by week 3 or 4 moreno will be full stride.

our rush offense struggled becasue we were playing a pretty solid run defense. we also struggled becasue weigman and hamilton have never been great run blockers and bigger DL work them, combine that with our best inetrior run blocker being out...well those are big factors for a poor run game, couple that with 17 different 3 yd passes by orton and its easy to key in on whats going on.....we spread the field and stretch it a bit....the lanes will open as the season progresses

then guys like moreno, and bucky will begin to really shine....

dont be suprised to see the bengals bounce back either in a couple weeks and start suprising people. they are a good offensive and defensive football team. they struggled last year because palmer went down early, ocho cinco was a tool, and ryan fitpatrick was a noob. they went 4-3 there last seven games, and had solid defensive efforts each of those games.

I am also not worried about a rookie rush LB convert who had his first snaps in the pros on sunday....those guys take a year or 2 to adjust. its a harder transition.

frenchfan
09-16-2009, 09:22 AM
Very good points Elevation... People seem to forget (me included I have to admit) that Bengals have a very respectable D too... :beer:

Dman444
09-16-2009, 01:50 PM
Was I the only fan that was screaming at the game on Sunday "USE HILLIS!!" "WHERE"S HILLIS??!"

Nope. I was as well.

I think we didn't use him because Larsen was out, we'd have to go single back sets every time he was in, plus Buckhalter was playing great.

I really hope we use the run a lot more against the Browns. While I think Orton will be fine, he needs a strong running game if we are going to be successful.

Keystonebronco
09-16-2009, 03:25 PM
He'll come into his own. The first game is always rough. As the year goes on ALL teams get better and better.

The difference between great teams and good teams (or more specifically great RBs and good RBs) is their learning curve is much steeper than the competition.

It's how it is every year. i expect to see some great running this week (I HOPE!!) from our man!

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 09:14 PM
http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/John.Elway.sports.2.1185724.html

Elway Thinks Orton Will Be Better As Time Goes On

DENVER (CBS4) - Unlike some Broncos fans, John Elway seems to have no concerns about whether Kyle Orton is the man for the job for the Broncos this season. See what he had to say about the Broncos win over the Bengals on Sunday.

On Kyle Orton

"I think he's getting better," said Elway. "Obviously I think his finger is bothering him and I think offensively it doesn't look like everything is clicking for him yet."


"You know that they have the talent offensively to be a good team. I just think that is hasn't really clicked with everybody yet."

"You can spend all the time in the world you want in the off-season going over a new offense, trying to get it down mentally, but until you get into the games and get under the fire it's tough to react to it and really feel comfortable with that offense."

"Kyle's been in there before. He'll be perfect in this offense as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with it."
"I still think he's thinking about what's going on, where people are going to be, trying to trust people downfield. And when you're doing that it makes it more difficult to trust what you're doing within the pocket and it takes some of that reaction time away because you're thinking a little bit."

denbroncofan26
09-16-2009, 09:45 PM
Nope. I was as well.

I think we didn't use him because Larsen was out, we'd have to go single back sets every time he was in, plus Buckhalter was playing great.

I really hope we use the run a lot more against the Browns. While I think Orton will be fine, he needs a strong running game if we are going to be successful.

As far as Im concerned, Hillis is a flat out football player. He makes plays and makes a difference. Even if Buckhalter is playing well, Hillis still needs the ball in his hands more. IMO at least once every three or four plays. It was so frustrating to watch him being wasted

Elevation inc
09-17-2009, 02:27 AM
Very good points Elevation... People seem to forget (me included I have to admit) that Bengals have a very respectable D too... :beer:

I was actually predicting a loss to the bengals high flying offense, becasue i didnt know our d would be this improved right off the bat. they looked better this last game than all but 2 games last year we had(atlanta/Jets).

they have a good offense and ocho cinco returned to form, plus coles is a very good Wr as well and chris henry seems rehabilitated from his off-field stuff(marshall take note...lol) not to mention andre caldwell a former gator looks very promising.....benson also came on strong the last six games last year, and was a big reason ryan fitzpatrick had a winning record his last seven games as a starter.

a 12th ranked defense last year, also added a thumping backer in rey maulugua, got kieth rivers back, and added some much more talented beef along there DL

there biggest questions were secondary,palmers health, and there OL

whats even more amazing is thats a pretty high flying offense and for once our defense kept us in the game, people use that last drive as a example of defensive failure, but that was more the fault of playcalling and scheme than it was players, we didnt try and pressure palmer at all....and he showed whats happens when you give him time, which we didnt do for the first 59 minutes.....

our liability is underneath pass coverage, becasue of new OLb's and system, but its nice watching safties keep a 10-15 yd pass at ten -15 yds inetad of a TD or 40 yds downfield......

i didnt expect our offense to look good at all, with orton running things and that was confirmed, but with this defense we should suprise quite a few teams, while our offense hopefully at sometime gets a light bulb on....if we can beat clevland and oakland(a much improved team), we have a good shot to suprise a few teams during that tough stretch and at least leave this season with 8-9 wins.....

our big test are yet to come, but for once i saw a team that played a whole game and didnt quit in the face of adevrsity for the first time in a long time, and thats a hugh character bonus ofr denver and something that can lay a foundation to something very promising in the future.

OMorange&blue
09-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Re watched the first half only watching the D.

A few notes:

#56 is better than I thought. At the point of attach he is our best runD OLB. He holds his point, cuts off the edge and funnels the RB inside into the waiting arms of adre or DJ. His pass rush is very, very good. Powerful bullrush and nice quick first step. 2 of cinci's first half long third down conversions were a direct result of Ayers not having the vaguest ****ing clue what he is doing in pass coverage. The first one he tracked a guy too far into champs zone and left his open. On the second one, he had the full back in man and the FB gave a show of hanging in the pocket for protection and that’s when Ayers engaged someone else and let him slip out uncovered. I’ll monitor his progress next week and for the rest of the season, but I really think he has a shot at developing into a complete beast.

The Dline against the run: When they man up against the front three we can hold the point and let out LB’s tackle. When they double the NT he can get turned and walled off from the play. That said, they did a solid job. Marcus Thomas looked very strong.

The Dline against the pass: When we rush 4, no pressure. When we rush 5, decent pressure. The nice thing about this D, compared to the 08 version, is we can dial up pressure. DJ and Davis both are proving serviceable at blitzing up the middle and combined with good stunting and with 2 good edge rushers in Doom and Ayers, we can get pressure with 5 without being terribly predictable. Once Ayers figures out his pass coverage, Nolan will be free to bring pressure from any 2 of the 4 backers.

The backers: Haggen and doom are both liabilities against the run but Doom occasionally looked good using his arm length to create space and let him funnel the RB back into the inside and his backside pursuit is very good. Davis looked solid and smart. DJ is still gambling and occasionally takes himself out of plays as a result. It did pay off once, though, on a third and long that cinci had blocked perfectly except for DJ.

Overall they got a little lucky with dropped balls and a few questionable calls against cinci, but it was still a very exciting performance. We need Ayers to figure it out in coverage. We need a nose tackle that can hold point against a double team. The first might happen this year, the second will not.

Interesting stat comparison for 08 & 09 D’s in week 1:

08 ypc 5.0

09 ypc 3.2

TXBRONC
09-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Re watched the first half only watching the D.

A few notes:

#56 is better than I thought. At the point of attach he is our best runD OLB. He holds his point, cuts off the edge and funnels the RB inside into the waiting arms of adre or DJ. His pass rush is very, very good. Powerful bullrush and nice quick first step. 2 of cinci's first half long third down conversions were a direct result of Ayers not having the vaguest ****ing clue what he is doing in pass coverage. The first one he tracked a guy too far into champs zone and left his open. On the second one, he had the full back in man and the FB gave a show of hanging in the pocket for protection and that’s when Ayers engaged someone else and let him slip out uncovered. I’ll monitor his progress next week and for the rest of the season, but I really think he has a shot at developing into a complete beast.

The Dline against the run: When they man up against the front three we can hold the point and let out LB’s tackle. When they double the NT he can get turned and walled off from the play. That said, they did a solid job. Marcus Thomas looked very strong.

The Dline against the pass: When we rush 4, no pressure. When we rush 5, decent pressure. The nice thing about this D, compared to the 08 version, is we can dial up pressure. DJ and Davis both are proving serviceable at blitzing up the middle and combined with good stunting and with 2 good edge rushers in Doom and Ayers, we can get pressure with 5 without being terribly predictable. Once Ayers figures out his pass coverage, Nolan will be free to bring pressure from any 2 of the 4 backers.

The backers: Haggen and doom are both liabilities against the run but Doom occasionally looked good using his arm length to create space and let him funnel the RB back into the inside and his backside pursuit is very good. Davis looked solid and smart. DJ is still gambling and occasionally takes himself out of plays as a result. It did pay off once, though, on a third and long that cinci had blocked perfectly except for DJ.

Overall they got a little lucky with dropped balls and a few questionable calls against cinci, but it was still a very exciting performance. We need Ayers to figure it out in coverage. We need a nose tackle that can hold point against a double team. The first might happen this year, the second will not.

Interesting stat comparison for 08 & 09 D’s in week 1:

08 ypc 5.0

09 ypc 3.2

It's going to take Ayers some time get pass coverage. I wouldn't be surprised if it took an entire season to get comfortable with it. I wonder how much pass coverage guys like DeMarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman play?

From what I remember from the game the Bengals had mors success running on the outside than they did between the tackles.

Chica_Ang
09-17-2009, 11:55 PM
Should we be worried? About...what? Our beloved team that has seen major changes in the last 9 months? No.

Be cool, grab your favorite beverage, game snack, sit back, and watch the season unfold. Those of us who have watched this team, and this game, for decades, have learned to enjoy each game, anticipate, and wait for a glorious play like Stokely's last week.

You NEVER know what will happen, even with predictions and stats.

THAT is why I Love Football! :salute:

frenchfan
09-18-2009, 01:24 AM
people use that last drive as a example of defensive failure, but that was more the fault of playcalling and scheme than it was players, we didnt try and pressure palmer at all....and he showed whats happens when you give him time, which we didnt do for the first 59 minutes.....Thanks for you great input :beer:
As I can't watch many Broncos game, it's very usefull !

IMO, D shouldn't change its way of playing because the game is going to end... I remember Pats-Giants superbowl... The Giants did stopped to rush Brady only 1 serie at the end of the game... result? Pats TD and it almost costed them the game (if it was not for the incredible escape and reception play for Manning & co)....

Talking about our rookies, if think Ayers will need more time because he is not playing his natural (or taught) game... As TX said, he needs to learn coverage which is not so easy.
I think Moreno will be better soon... He missed too much preparation (hold out + injurie) and I don't think he really is at his top shape right now...

Orton will improve too... But don't expect him to be stellar... IMO he's a good manager but don't try to put all the game on his arms... I will never say Orton is a great QB... But he can be decent... I like his mentality but I don't trust too much his arm and decision making yet (this last point will improve IMO). I think he can be good under pressure (I was not too much convinced by much more skilled Cutler on this matter).

The O in a whole need to improve : decisions making - running game - blocking - penalties - dropped passes...

Just my 2 cents.

I hope our D will go on like that.

:salute: :defense: