A McDaniels Recap

[Softskull]

So looking back on 2009 and 2010 drafts:

1 12 Knowshon Moreno
1 18 Robert Ayers
2 37 Alphonso Smith
2 48 Darcel McBath
2 64 Richard Quinn
4 114 David Bruton
4 132 Seth Olsen Guard
5 141 Kenny McKinley
6 174 Tom Brandstater
7 225 Blake Schlueter

1a 22 Demaryius Thomas
1b 25 Tim Tebow
2 45 Zane Beadles
3a 80 J.D. Walton
3b 87 Eric Decker
5 137 Perrish Cox
6 183 Eric Olsen
7a 225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7b 232 Jammie Kirlew

Four 1st rounders and four second rounders. Only one of those guys remains and only two total from that draft. Alphonso Smith for Earl Thomas.
And please don't tell me we got Peyton as some grand design that the button head had while getting rid of Cutler/Marshall.

[BroncoWave]

Decent 2010 draft. Was hit and miss but produced an all-pro level player and a couple of solid starters. Pretty bad 09 draft in hindsight. Moreno and Ayers are both decent players, but not first round talents. Bruton is a great special teamer. Richard Quinn might be the worst draft pick ever though.

Overall, not the best two drafts ever, but not the worst either. I'd give 2010 a B+ and the 2009 draft a D.

[Shazam!]

Nothing can be done to change Mc?! *$face's wasted picks.

Maybe start previewing the current Draft will ease the pain.

[Dreadnought]

I Hate Josh McDaniels

[DenBronx]

I too hate Josh McDaniels.


He did draft a couple good WRs though. Doesn't change the fact that he was gay.

[tomjonesrocks]

I Hate Josh McDaniels

I can't really add to this. Brevity works here.

[BroncoWave]

If you want to talk about a bad draft class, look no further than:

Rd. 1: Jarvis Moss
Rd. 2: Tim Crowder
Rd. 3: Ryan Harris
Rd. 4: Marcus Thomas

or

Rd. 2: Darrent Williams
Rd. 3: Karl Paymuh
Rd. 3: Domonique Foxworth
Rd. 3: Maurice Clarett
Rd. 6: Chris Myers
Rd. 7: Paul Ernster

[BroncoWave]

Also this gem of a draft:

Rd. 1: George Foster
Rd. 2: Terry Pierce
Rd. 4: Quentin Griffin
Rd. 4: Nick Eason
Rd. 4: Bryant McNeal
Rd. 5: Ben Claxton
Rd. 5: Adrian Madise
Rd. 6: Aaron Hunt
Rd. 7: Clint Mitchell
Rd. 7: Ahmad Galloway

[Northman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pPCEXq4mgk

[Northman]

If you want to talk about a bad draft class, look no further than:

Rd. 1: Jarvis Moss
Rd. 2: Tim Crowder
Rd. 3: Ryan Harris
Rd. 4: Marcus Thomas

or

Rd. 2: Darrent Williams
Rd. 3: Karl Paymuh
Rd. 3: Domonique Foxworth
Rd. 3: Maurice Clarett
Rd. 6: Chris Myers
Rd. 7: Paul Ernster


Also this gem of a draft:

Rd. 1: George Foster
Rd. 2: Terry Pierce
Rd. 4: Quentin Griffin
Rd. 4: Nick Eason
Rd. 4: Bryant McNeal
Rd. 5: Ben Claxton
Rd. 5: Adrian Madise
Rd. 6: Aaron Hunt
Rd. 7: Clint Mitchell
Rd. 7: Ahmad Galloway

Yea, but laughing at Shanny's draft classes arent near as fun, not too mention he did manage to win a couple of rings with the team.

[luckyseven]

Yea, but laughing at Shanny's draft classes arent near as fun, not too mention he did manage to win a couple of rings with the team.

And went down hill with talent thereafter except for one year.

How about we admit that Shanahan was not a Rhodes scholar when it came to drafting talent while being easy with Pats money for the free agent mistakes.

Now we actually have separation of state so to speak between HC and GM. That is something to celebrate.

[luckyseven]

If you want to talk about a bad draft class, look no further than:

Rd. 1: Jarvis Moss
Rd. 2: Tim Crowder
Rd. 3: Ryan Harris
Rd. 4: Marcus Thomas

or

Rd. 2: Darrent Williams
Rd. 3: Karl Paymuh
Rd. 3: Domonique Foxworth
Rd. 3: Maurice Clarett
Rd. 6: Chris Myers
Rd. 7: Paul Ernster


Also this gem of a draft:

Rd. 1: George Foster
Rd. 2: Terry Pierce
Rd. 4: Quentin Griffin
Rd. 4: Nick Eason
Rd. 4: Bryant McNeal
Rd. 5: Ben Claxton
Rd. 5: Adrian Madise
Rd. 6: Aaron Hunt
Rd. 7: Clint Mitchell
Rd. 7: Ahmad Galloway


Not many actual game starters in those drafts. You can Probably count them on your digits, hands and feet.

[silkamilkamonico]

And went down hill with talent thereafter except for one year.

How about we admit that Shanahan was not a Rhodes scholar when it came to drafting talent while being easy with Pats money for the free agent mistakes.

Now we actually have separation of state so to speak between HC and GM. That is something to celebrate.

Shanahan is a below average coach in the NFL. He couldn't do anything when the G.O.A.T#7 retired.

1 playoff win in 13 years = overrated

[luckyseven]

Shanahan is a below average coach in the NFL. He couldn't do anything when the G.O.A.T#7 retired.

1 playoff win in 13 years = overrated


I would not quite say below average, as he did win a lot of games after Elway retired, but failed epically in the playoffs.

[Simple Jaded]

If you want to talk about a bad draft class, look no further than:

Rd. 1: Jarvis Moss
Rd. 2: Tim Crowder
Rd. 3: Ryan Harris
Rd. 4: Marcus Thomas

or

Rd. 2: Darrent Williams
Rd. 3: Karl Paymuh
Rd. 3: Domonique Foxworth
Rd. 3: Maurice Clarett
Rd. 6: Chris Myers
Rd. 7: Paul Ernster

Shanatan's '99 draft might be the single worst draft in the history of ever.

The '99 and '09 draft shows why teams have to have an eye towards the future, they loaded up on draft picks in two of the waekest draft pools in decades.

[DenBronx]

As bad of stretch Shanny had post Elway I am still grateful that he helped bring us TWO rings while Elway was QB. His offensive mind and his value for a true RB helped push us over the edge. It's true Shanny needed Elway to win it all but I am certain Elway also needed Shanny.


But Shanahan should never be in charge of drafting ever again. He's a great coach when he has a FQB but he should never make personel decisions. I do however believe we were on the rise after he drafted Cutler. He had us back to the 2nd ranked offense in the NFL and he was finally doing better in the drafts again.

[DenBronx]

I still would rather this thread turn into a bashing McDumbass thread....

[MOtorboat]

Hero derpity herp derp.

[Simple Jaded]

Tom Nalen seems convinced that the Peyton Hillis/McDaniels wife rumor is true.

[Cugel]

I can't really add to this. Brevity works here.

I hate him with all the burning intensity of a thousand white hot suns. :mad:

I think that sums it up. He humiliated and embarrassed every fan. His arrogance knew no bounds. I would have liked to hit him in the face. Hard. And I'm a peaceful man. I normally don't hate anybody. Except him. He was like all the evil parts of Bill Belichek everybody despises without the brains.

[atwater27]

If you want to talk about a bad draft class, look no further than:

Rd. 1: Jarvis Moss
Rd. 2: Tim Crowder
Rd. 3: Ryan Harris
Rd. 4: Marcus Thomas

or

Rd. 2: Darrent Williams
Rd. 3: Karl Paymuh
Rd. 3: Domonique Foxworth
Rd. 3: Maurice Clarett
Rd. 6: Chris Myers
Rd. 7: Paul Ernster

In case you forgot, Shanahan coached us to 2 Super Bowl wins, so he was allowed to have a bad draft or 2.

[atwater27]

Shanahan is a below average coach in the NFL. He couldn't do anything when the G.O.A.T#7 retired.

1 playoff win in 13 years = overrated

Yeah, I am sure we would have won both championships without him. Hate on hater

[Cugel]

Decent 2010 draft. Was hit and miss but produced an all-pro level player and a couple of solid starters. Pretty bad 09 draft in hindsight. Moreno and Ayers are both decent players, but not first round talents. Bruton is a great special teamer. Richard Quinn might be the worst draft pick ever though.

Overall, not the best two drafts ever, but not the worst either. I'd give 2010 a B+ and the 2009 draft a D.

Even if this assessment were accurate (which it is not) you cannot view it in this simplistic manner.

Simply put, trading Jay Cutler was an enormous opportunity. And he threw it away. Teams (like the Jets and Redskins) were actually furious with Denver because they were not given a chance to top Chicago's offer with higher and more draft picks. Miami would have been willing to part with a couple of #1 picks.

But, McMoron wanted Kyle Orton as his starting QB because in his ego he didn't want to be blamed for trading Cutler and then starting out with a rookie QB who might struggle. Of course he was blamed anyway for losing 8 in a row with Orton, so it didn't help him a bit.

And it shouldn't be forgotten that the QB he really wanted was Matt Cassel! So, what he really proposed, before Hoody screwed him by dealing Cassel to KC, was a straight up three-way swap, with Cutler going to Miami and a #1 pick going to New England and Cassel coming here.

Then, when this blew up in his face he blatantly lied about it and tried to pretend he was "just listening to offers".

Sure. NFL GMs just spitball complicated 3-way trades all the time without even knowing that the other team is interested in trading. The lie wasn't remotely plausible but he brazenly expected us all to believe it. Why not just admit it? "I didn't like Jay Cutler and wanted to get rid of him."

Because he didn't have the courage to be honest. He was just a weasel who didn't want to take any responsibility if things failed, just as he tried to blame his coaches and weasel out of spygate. Only by that time Pat Bowlen thankfully had had enough and sent him packing.

[BroncoWave]

Even if this assessment were accurate (which it is not) you cannot view it in this simplistic manner.

Simply put, trading Jay Cutler was an enormous opportunity. And he threw it away. Teams (like the Jets and Redskins) were actually furious with Denver because they were not given a chance to top Chicago's offer with higher and more draft picks. Miami would have been willing to part with a top 5 pick.

But, McMoron wanted Kyle Orton as his starting QB because in his ego he didn't want to be blamed for trading Cutler and then starting out with a rookie QB who might struggle. Of course he was blamed anyway for losing 8 in a row with Orton, so it didn't help him a bit.

And it shouldn't be forgotten that the QB he really wanted was Matt Cassel! So, what he really proposed, before Hoody screwed him by dealing Cassel to KC, was a straight up three-way swap, with Cutler going to Miami and a #1 pick going to New England and Cassel coming here.

Then, when this blew up in his face he blatantly lied about it and tried to pretend he was "just listening to offers".

Sure. NFL GMs just spitball complicated 3-way trades all the time without even knowing that the other team is interested in trading. The lie wasn't remotely plausible but he brazenly expected us all to believe it. Why not just admit it? "I didn't like Jay Cutler and wanted to get rid of him."

Because he didn't have the courage to be honest. He was just a weasel who didn't want to take any responsibility if things failed, just as he tried to blame his coaches and weasel out of spygate. Only by that time Pat Bowlen thankfully had had enough and sent him packing.

Absolutely none of this has to do with grading his two drafts. If you want to give him an F in trading and free agency (which is what your entire post was about) then that is a separate discussion. But just grading those two drafts, the grades I gave were more than fair IMO. DT is an all-pro, Decker is a very good starting WR, Moreno is a solid starting RB, Walton was a solid starting C before his injuries, Beadles is a pro bowl guard, Ayers is a solid rotational player, and Bruton is a great special teamer. Say what you want about his other personnel moves, but these two drafts were not the outright horror that some want to make it out to be.

[atwater27]

It blows my mind that some Broncos fans would actually waste a second of their time defending Joshua McDaniels honor.

[turftoad]

Absolutely none of this has to do with grading his two drafts. If you want to give him an F in trading and free agency (which is what your entire post was about) then that is a separate discussion. But just grading those two drafts, the grades I gave were more than fair IMO. DT is an all-pro, Decker is a very good starting WR, Moreno is a solid starting RB, Walton was a solid starting C before his injuries, Beadles is a pro bowl guard, Ayers is a solid rotational player, and Bruton is a great special teamer. Say what you want about his other personnel moves, but these two drafts were not the outright horror that some want to make it out to be.

Whatever. Both DT and Moreno had first round grades. If we didn't take them in the first, someone else would have. So it's not like he turned some sleepers into Pro Bowlers.

[BroncoWave]

Whatever. Both DT and Moreno had first round grades. If we didn't take them in the first, someone else would have. So it's not like he turned some sleepers into Pro Bowlers.

So then no coach should every get credit for a first round pick being a good player? Is that what we are saying now? Ok, fine. By this logic, many people had Ayers as a first round grade, should McD should get no criticism for this pick, because had he not picked him in the first round someone else would have.

[atwater27]

So then no coach should every get credit for a first round pick being a good player? Is that what we are saying now? Ok, fine. By this logic, many people had Ayers as a first round grade, should McD should get no criticism for this pick, because had he not picked him in the first round someone else would have.

4581

[BroncoWave]

Just remember, if there is ever a thread grading Elway drafts, no one is allowed to give him credit for Von being a good pick. I mean, had Elway not picked him, someone else would have!

[atwater27]

4582

[turftoad]

So then no coach should every get credit for a first round pick being a good player? Is that what we are saying now? Ok, fine. By this logic, many people had Ayers as a first round grade, should McD should get no criticism for this pick, because had he not picked him in the first round someone else would have.

Sure. Let's talk about how he traded up to the first round for Tebow and up into the second round for Richard Quinn. McEgo thought he could turn guys like that into something. DT and Decker were nothing when McDumbass was here with Tebow at QB. They didn't become Pro Bowlers and decent players til he was gone.

[chazoe60]

Not just the fact that he brought shame and dishonor to the franchise, I also hate McDouche because he's plain and simply a bad guy. He's just a shit stain of a human being.








Also, because of him I had to waste two+ years of my Broncofandom watching that lethargic loser Kyle Orton QB this team, if you can even call it that.

[atwater27]

4583

[BroncoWave]

DT was injured early in his career, so that is hardly fair. And Decker was quite good with Tebow as his QB.

And I agree with you that Tebow and Quinn were both reaches. But that doesn't mean you get to take away from the picks that he did get right. Once again, not really all that fair.

It's a ridiculous double standard that he doesn't get credit for the first round picks he hit on but he gets to take the blame for the ones he missed on. I can't wait to see if this same logic is used when people are grading Elway's drafts years down the line.

[atwater27]

4584

[Simple Jaded]

If Knowshon Moreno had 1st round talent there's something wrong with your grading system, the rest of the '09 class isn't worth the bandwidth.

DT was a huge risk that high, he was well on his way to being drafted too high before Broncos fixed their QB situation, and to compound this risk he took the same risk on Decker in the 3rd. Walton and Beadles just plain sucked and would have been replaced long ago had the Broncos not been so pass heavy.

To be brutally honest, we're grading all these draft picks entirely different if the Broncos never sign a Manning and bring in a legitimate NFL coaching staff. Most of Doogie's draft picks sucked and those that did not were damn near ruined by the ridiculous environment he put them in.

Had they given McDaniels another season this woulda been even worse, dude was world class incompetent and dysfunctional to boot, he wasn't even much good at what supposedly got him hired in the first place.

[BroncoWave]

I challenge you to find a single reputable draft analyst who didn't have Moreno with a first round grade pre-draft.

[atwater27]

4585

[chazoe60]

I challenge you to find a single reputable draft analyst who didn't have Moreno with a first round grade pre-draft.
None of that shit even matters. He was a first class ******** who got busted recording other team's practices, treated people like shit, forced me to watch Kyle Orton, and let his personality get in the way of the team's success. **** him, he's a bad person and I don't like him.

[Dreadnought]

None of that shit even matters. He was a first class ******** who got busted recording other team's practices, treated people like shit, forced me to watch Kyle Orton, and let his personality get in the way of the team's success. **** him, he's a bad person and I don't like him.

59 - 14. To the Raiders. That's enough in and of itself

[BroncoWave]

None of that shit even matters. He was a first class ******** who got busted recording other team's practices, treated people like shit, forced me to watch Kyle Orton, and let his personality get in the way of the team's success. **** him, he's a bad person and I don't like him.

Again, none of this has to do with the topic of this thread, which is his draft classes.

[chazoe60]

Again, none of this has to do with the topic of this thread, which is his draft classes.
Alphonso Smith

[Slick]

Decent 2010 draft. Was hit and miss but produced an all-pro level player and a couple of solid starters. Pretty bad 09 draft in hindsight. Moreno and Ayers are both decent players, but not first round talents. Bruton is a great special teamer. Richard Quinn might be the worst draft pick ever though.

Overall, not the best two drafts ever, but not the worst either. I'd give 2010 a B+ and the 2009 draft a D.

What he did to get Alphonso Smith tops the Richard Quinn selection.

[BroncoWave]

Alphonso Smith

Go back and look at my first post. I gave that draft a D. I'm not debating any of his bad picks. I'm just debating the shit-tastic logic that he doesn't get credit for his good ones.

[atwater27]

4586

[Simple Jaded]

I challenge you to find a single reputable draft analyst who didn't have Moreno with a first round grade pre-draft.

I don't care what they said then or if it were unanimous, they were dead wrong from the moment he stepped on an NFL field. Even back then teams were devaluing the position, plus the dude had no 1st round skills whatsoever, this is not revisionist at all.

Matt Millen gets killed in these discussions but year after year he was taking unanimous 1st round talent, Charles Rogers had far, far better talent than Moreno.

[topscribe]

DT was injured early in his career, so that is hardly fair. And Decker was quite good with Tebow as his QB.

And I agree with you that Tebow and Quinn were both reaches. But that doesn't mean you get to take away from the picks that he did get right. Once again, not really all that fair.

It's a ridiculous double standard that he doesn't get credit for the first round picks he hit on but he gets to take the blame for the ones he missed on. I can't wait to see if this same logic is used when people are grading Elway's drafts years down the line.
You're right. We need to consider his significant achievements.

For one thing, he single-handedly brought an entire football franchise to its knees . . . :coffee:
.

[BroncoWave]

You're right. We need to consider his significant achievements.

For one thing, he single-handedly brought an entire football franchise to its knees . . . :coffee:
.

This thread is about his drafts, not his career on the whole.

[Simple Jaded]

Go back and look at my first post. I gave that draft a D. I'm not debating any of his bad picks. I'm just debating the shit-tastic logic that he doesn't get credit for his good ones.

Thats the point, we should be giving Elway, Fox and the current regime the Lions share of the credit along WITH him, cause left on his own it would've a complete loss.

[BroncoWave]

I believe my grades of his two drafts (D, B+) are both more than fair. Since no one else in this thread seems to care about staying on topic, I will just leave it at that.

[topscribe]

This thread is about his drafts, not his career on the whole.
My post is about his career as a whole. As are several other posts here.

Nonetheless, regarding what you say the thread is about, McDaniels' drafting stunk.
.

[Simple Jaded]

I believe my grades of his two drafts (D, B+) are both more than fair. Since no one else in this thread seems to care about staying on topic, I will just leave it at that.

I've been on topic and am trying to be fair, as hard as it's been considering I hate, hate the little POS. The '99 was far worse imo, and I actually like Shanatan., however, D and B+ are both way high. I won't give it a grade because I can't be unbiased and his drafts success belong to the current regime.

I've liked one pick at the time of the draft, DT, just thought it was too high, or better yet, draft someone else 1st and then trade all those Tebow picks to move back up for DT.

[tripp]

The only good player he drafted was Demaryius Thomas, and even that looked suspect for the first 2 years. That's the only thing I'll give that p.o.s credit for.

Scratch that, I'll give him credit for Decker too. Just boggles my mind why you need to mess around with an offense that didn't need to be touched, simply because it is not the Patriot way.

[Slick]

Softskull you are evil.

[Dreadnought]

Softskull you are evil.

He is keeping the Hate alive. I salute that. No Bronco fan should ever forget this man or his wicked deeds, same way Texans should remember the Alamo.

[Softskull]

He is keeping the Hate alive. I salute that. No Bronco fan should ever forget this man or his wicked deeds, same way Texans should remember the Alamo.

Some things you neither forgive nor forget. It's the only time I can remember that I both love and hated my Broncos. When Raider fans feel sorry for us, things are very wrong.

[SoCalImport]

Pats fans must love this thread.

[luckyseven]

Sure. Let's talk about how he traded up to the first round for Tebow and up into the second round for Richard Quinn. McEgo thought he could turn guys like that into something. DT and Decker were nothing when McDumbass was here with Tebow at QB. They didn't become Pro Bowlers and decent players til he was gone.

Other than top ten picks at WR how many of them turned into great receivers their first year.

Most of them take a few years to learn how to run routes, how to block.

Not to mention DT was injured for how long?

A real poor analogy on you part.

[7DnBrnc53]

Shanatan's '99 draft might be the single worst draft in the history of ever.

The '99 and '09 draft shows why teams have to have an eye towards the future, they loaded up on draft picks in two of the waekest draft pools in decades.

Our 1999 draft was not that bad:

1 31 Al Wilson LB 06/21/1977 Tennessee
He was a steal at pick 32 and a rock in the middle for several seasons before having to retire after the 06 season.

2 58 Montae Reagor DT 06/29/1977 Texas Tech
Backup-type player that had a solid nine-year career with three different teams. Had 10.5 sacks in 2004 and 05 as a starter with the Colts.

2 61 Lennie Friedman OG 10/13/1976 Duke
Played nine years in the NFL. Was a starter with Denver in 2000 and 01.

3 67 Chris Watson DB 06/30/1977 Eastern Illinois
Only played five years and had a very non-descript career.

3 93 Travis McGriff WR 06/24/1976 Florida
Another failed attempt to get a third WR. Was out of the league after 2001.

4 127 Olandis Gary RB 05/18/1975 Georgia
Ran for 1,000 yards his rookie year after replacing an injured Terrell Davis.

5 158 David Bowens DE 07/03/1977 Western Illinois
Was only in Denver for one year, but went on to have a solid career with four other teams, notching 38.5 career sacks. Retired after the 2010 season.

5 167 Darwin Brown DB 07/06/1977 Texas Tech
Never really played.

6 179 Desmond Clark TE 04/20/1977 Wake Forest
Was supposed to be Shannon Sharpe's successor, but was released in 2002 with an injury settlement. He went to Miami, and then he played with the Bears from 2003-10 before retiring with 323 career receptions.

6 204 Chad Plummer WR 11/30/1975 Cincinnati
Another guy who didn't have much of a career.

7 218 Billy Miller TE 04/24/1977 Southern California
Was a WR at USC, but switched to TE in Denver. Did play in 22 games in 1999 and 00, but was lost in the shuffle behind Shannon Sharpe, Dwayne Carswell, Desmond Clark, and Byron Chamberlain. After not playing in any games in 01, he re-appeared with the expansion Texans the next year. He had 108 catches and 21 starts from 2002-04. After one non-descript year with Cleveland, he played his last three years in New Orleans, starting 14 games and having 86 catches.

7 238 Justin Swift TE 08/14/1975 Kansas State
Played four years with Philly and SF. Had 7 career starts and 22 career catches.

[Simple Jaded]

McGriff wasn't a failed attempt at anything, you know why Shanatan draft him? His dad was Shantans college teammate. And if Wilson was such a steal Shanatan had the ammo to move up and make sure he got him, dude had 6 picks in the top 130 and ended up with one full time starter.

Al Wilson, and to a much lesser extent Gary, that's it, the rest were pure garbage.

Lennie ******* Freidman. :Chuckle:

Btw, Reagor wasn't a DT, he was a DE and a shitty one, he later moved to 3-t DT because he was a complete waste of time at DE.

[turftoad]

This thread is about his drafts, not his career on the whole.

The thread title reads "A McDaniels Recap".

[TXBRONC]

4581

You can add to list: I will not lie.

[TXBRONC]

Sure. Let's talk about how he traded up to the first round for Tebow and up into the second round for Richard Quinn. McEgo thought he could turn guys like that into something. DT and Decker were nothing when McDumbass was here with Tebow at QB. They didn't become Pro Bowlers and decent players til he was gone.

Add to that trading away a first round pick to get Alphonso Smith in the 2nd round.

[MOtorboat]

I'm glad y'all aren't Browns fans.

[EMB6903]

Trading back into the 2nd at the last minute to draft Richard Quinn had to be one of the worst draft picks in broncos history. You knew at that point mcdaniels had no idea what he was doing as a GM.

[Cugel]

You're right. We need to consider his significant achievements.

For one thing, he single-handedly brought an entire football franchise to its knees . . . :coffee:
.
Thanks Top! I laughed so hard when I read this that my soft drink spurted out of my nose. It was messy but totally worth it. I needed a good laugh today!

[Cugel]

I believe my grades of his two drafts (D, B+) are both more than fair. Since no one else in this thread seems to care about staying on topic, I will just leave it at that.

If you gave his drafts an "F-" that wouldn't even be hard enough when you take into consideration that he traded DOWN in order to acquire those picks and squandered endless draft capital to do it, especially in the Cutler trade.

If you trade a jewel worth $100,000 for $10,000 cash, then spend the $10,000 on ten items, one or two of which turn out to have some value, you don't get a "D" grade for trading. You get an "F." Period. And yes, whatever you think of him, Cutler was a jewel in terms of his trade value in 2009. He was worth a LOT more than Chicago's #1 pick and the worthless Kyle Orton.

[MOtorboat]

If you gave his drafts an "F-" that wouldn't even be hard enough when you take into consideration that he traded DOWN in order to acquire those picks and squandered endless draft capital to do it, especially in the Cutler trade.

If you trade a jewel worth $100,000 for $10,000 cash, then spend the $10,000 on ten items, one or two of which turn out to have some value, you don't get a "D" grade for trading. You get an "F." Period. And yes, whatever you think of him, Cutler was a jewel in terms of his trade value in 2009. He was worth a LOT more than Chicago's #1 pick and the worthless Kyle Orton.

So, how should have the Cutler trade been handled?

[Cugel]

So, how should have the Cutler trade been handled?

Simple. The Redskins and Jets among other teams like the Lions desperately wanted a QB. Remember the Lions had the #1 pick and took Matt Stafford, the Jets traded a #1 and #2 to move up from #17 to #5 for Mark Sanchez and the Redskins couldn't get a QB they liked and suffered along until 2010 when they gave up multiple #1s to trade up and get RGIII.

So, all McMoron had to do was keep the bidding going to see how much he could pry out of each team. "The Redskins have offered X, can you top this?" Cutler was a known commodity. A proven QB just off a Pro-Bowl year and still very young and un-injured. It was the biggest trade opportunity of the last 5 years.

But, McMoron decided that he wanted Kyle Orton and that meant he had to do a deal with the Bears. Plus, he had so screwed up relations with Cutler by lying to him (telling him he "looked forward to working with him" and then immediately going out and trying to trade for Cassel), that the trade value was screwed, because everybody knew Cutler was so pissed at McMoron that the Broncos couldn't keep him! (Don't bother arguing that you think it was all Cutler's fault. It wasn't, but that isn't the point. The point is trade value and how McMoron blew it.

He should have told Cutler up-front from the first that he was going to trade him. He didn't because he didn't want to take responsibility either with Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis or with the fans if it didn't work out. Just a total weasel and it blew up in his face.

Then he should have gotten the maximum trade value out of it which could possibly have been Detroit's #1 overall pick BTW, or multiple #1 picks in consecutive years -- just like the Redskins gave up in 2010 to move up and get RGIII.

Remember also that the Redskins had the #13 pick and the Jets gave up the #17 pick plus their 2nd round pick to move up to #5 for Sanchez, and they and the Redskins were pissed that McMoron wouldn't give them a chance to top Chicago's offer.

All this stuff was widely reported at the time BTW and is ancient history by now. I'm not going to bother to go back and look for sources if some fool wants to dispute any of it.

[topscribe]

Thanks Top! I laughed so hard when I read this that my soft drink spurted out of my nose. It was messy but totally worth it. I needed a good laugh today!
Oh yeah? Well, where's the High Five? :look:
.

[MOtorboat]

Simple. The Redskins and Jets among other teams like the Lions desperately wanted a QB. Remember the Lions had the #1 pick and took Matt Stafford, the Jets traded multiple #1s to move up for Mark Sanchez and the Redskins couldn't get a QB they liked and suffered along until 2010 when they gave up multiple #1s to trade up and get RGIII.

So, all McMoron had to do was keep the bidding going to see how much he could pry out of each team. "The Redskins have offered X, can you top this?" Cutler was a known commodity. A proven QB just off a Pro-Bowl year and still very young and un-injured. It was the biggest trade opportunity of the last 5 years.

But, McMoron decided that he wanted Kyle Orton and that meant he had to do a deal with the Bears. Plus, he had so screwed up relations with Cutler by lying to him (telling him he "looked forward to working with him" and then immediately going out and trying to trade for Cassel), that the trade value was screwed, because everybody knew Cutler was so pissed at McMoron that the Broncos couldn't keep him! (Don't bother arguing that you think it was all Cutler's fault. It wasn't, but that isn't the point. The point is trade value and how McMoron blew it.

He should have told Cutler up-front from the first that he was going to trade him. He didn't because he didn't want to take responsibility either with Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis or with the fans if it didn't work out. Just a total weasel and it blew up in his face.

Then he should have gotten the maximum trade value out of it which could possibly have been Detroit's #1 overall pick BTW, or multiple #1 picks in consecutive years -- just like the Redskins gave up in 2010 to move up and get RGIII.

Oh. Ok.

Man, loved to have Sanchez over Orton.

LOL.

[topscribe]

Oh. Ok.

Man, loved to have Sanchez over Orton.

LOL.
Championship!

The last place defense and near last place running game wouldn't have made any difference with Sanchez . . .
.

[atwater27]

Oh. Ok.

Man, loved to have Sanchez over Orton.

LOL.
Yeah. That was exactly what he was saying.

[atwater27]

I'm glad y'all aren't Browns fans.

Why? Are you?

[DenBronx]

59 - 14. To the Raiders. That's enough in and of itself


That's all I need to know about McDaniels.


But 43-8 is also making a very strong case. Lucky we have a good body of work to look at and not just that one game. If we play like that again this year I will be dissapointed.

[topscribe]

That's all I need to know about McDaniels.


But 43-8 is also making a very strong case. Lucky we have a good body of work to look at and not just that one game. If we play like that again this year I will be dissapointed.
There's a huge difference between the two blowouts. You have to remember just
where the 43-8 one that took place. Thirty other teams were watching that game,
if you know what I mean.
.

[spikerman]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating; I have to thank McDaniels for allowing me to get my season tickets in about half the time of the normal wait.

[Cugel]

Oh yeah? Well, where's the High Five? :look:
.

I wasn't logged in and had to go back and re-do it, but check and you'll see! :beer:

[Bosco]

I'm still shocked at how bad the 2009 draft class was as a whole.

[Cugel]

Oh. Ok.

Man, loved to have Sanchez over Orton.

LOL.

Who says we would have traded up to #5 for Sanchez? Frankly, there's no point analyzing that part of it, because that would rely on knowing the future. It's not necessary to have a crystal ball to see that it's better to get more and higher draft picks than fewer and less valuable ones.

That was visible at the time.

The reason McMoron wound up with Orton and Chicago's pick was that he wanted to cover his ass.

Really the rational thing to have done would have been to keep Cutler for a year and then try and make a move if it didn't work out, unless he had the courage to just come in and tell Cutler "I'm going to trade you" and then live and die with the result.

But, that's McMoron. Totally lacking in either integrity or intelligence.

But, can you imagine the fan reaction if he had succeeded in obtaining a straight up trade of Cutler for Matt Cassel? Remember that Cassel was actually significantly WORSE than Kyle Orton. Just ask the Minnesota fans who they would rather have had last season. And remember that the only reason Belichek didn't take the trade is that he wanted to give McMoron the bird for leaving his staff. (The Denver offer would have been worth more than what Bill wound up with as a result of the KC deal).

[Cugel]

There's a huge difference between the two blowouts. You have to remember just
where the 43-8 one that took place. Thirty other teams were watching that game,
if you know what I mean.
.

I fail to see why losing the SB is worse than totally sucking and not getting near the playoffs. Some fans are really twisted.

The only reason any of this is relevant today is that Seattle didn't blow all their picks. They stockpiled good players in each draft and then a few years later they were totally loaded with talent.

That's what happens if you do things right and don't throw away picks and have to fire the coach and start all over again from scratch rebuilding the roster. Even the addition of Peyton Manning couldn't overcome the total talent deficit the Broncos faced in that game.

[Bosco]

Really the rational thing to have done would have been to keep Cutler for a year and then try and make a move if it didn't work out, unless he had the courage to just come in and tell Cutler "I'm going to trade you" and then live and die with the result.

But, that's McMoron. Totally lacking in either integrity or intelligence.

Or Cugel's misrepresentation of the facts. Bowlen himself mandated the trade after Cutler claimed he didn't trust Bowlen. He even said as much in his letter to season ticket holders.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12040620

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4042472

[dogfish]

A McDaniels recap;

The whole thing was an utter dumpster fire, and he is a terrible human being; the end.

[Pudge]

A McDaniels recap;

The whole thing was an utter dumpster fire, and he is a terrible human being; the end.

I'm personally a huge McDaniels fan! He brought us John Elway back, Peyton manning, and a super bowl appearance. All we had to endure was two miserable years

[MOtorboat]

I'm personally a huge McDaniels fan! He brought us John Elway back, Peyton manning, and a super bowl appearance. All we had to endure was two miserable years

One, actually.

I LOVE that guy.

[topscribe]

Or Cugel's misrepresentation of the facts. Bowlen himself mandated the trade after Cutler claimed he didn't trust Bowlen. He even said as much in his letter to season ticket holders.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12040620

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4042472
But it was after his meeting with McDaniels that Cutler copped his attitude. No one,
that I know of, really knows what went on in that meeting, but Cutler became a
total stranger after that. However, McDaniels went on to demonstrate how devoid
he was of skills in human relations.

By contrast, Shanahan got along fine with Cutler, and Cutler quarterbacked the
offense to the #2 status in the league, with the help of Brandon Marshall and
Tony Scheffler, both whom McDaniels also ran off. Had Shanahan remained as
coach, the Broncos may still have stunk on defense, but I wonder whether we
might have a different opinion of Cutler today -- not to mention Marshall and
Scheffler.
.

[Dzone]

Drafting Tebow #1 was pure genius

[luckyseven]

But it was after his meeting with McDaniels that Cutler copped his attitude. No one,
that I know of, really knows what went on in that meeting, but Cutler became a
total stranger after that. However, McDaniels went on to demonstrate how devoid
he was of skills in human relations.

By contrast, Shanahan got along fine with Cutler, and Cutler quarterbacked the
offense to the #2 status in the league, with the help of Brandon Marshall and
Tony Scheffler, both whom McDaniels also ran off. Had Shanahan remained as
coach, the Broncos may still have stunk on defense, but I wonder whether we
might have a different opinion of Cutler today -- not to mention Marshall and
Scheffler.
.

Iirc great offense very poor in actual scoring. Nothing remotely close to #2.

[dogfish]

Iirc great offense very poor in actual scoring. Nothing remotely close to #2.

baha! the offense that was "very poor in scoring" was a hell of a lot better than what that loser assbag mcdaniels fielded. . . :lol:

08 - 23.1 points per game
09 - 20.4 points per game
10 - 21.5 points per game

pretty easy to see which offense actually was "number two". . . you know what stunk worse, though? the league-worst 29.4 points per game the little weasel's so-called defense gave up in 2010-- probably the worst unit the broncos have ever put between the stripes, at least in modern memory. . . yep, i would have to say that that was the crown jewel of all fails of that short but utterly embarrassing era. . . probably even more sad than his pathetic and tragically predictable attempt to mimic his mentor's videotapin' ways. . .

[luckyseven]

baha! the offense that was "very poor in scoring" was a hell of a lot better than what that loser assbag mcdaniels fielded. . . :lol:

08 - 23.1 points per game
09 - 20.4 points per game
10 - 21.5 points per game

pretty easy to see which offense actually was "number two". . . you know what stunk worse, though? the league-worst 29.4 points per game the little weasel's so-called defense gave up in 2010-- probably the worst unit the broncos have ever put between the stripes, at least in modern memory. . . yep, i would have to say that that was the crown jewel of all fails of that short but utterly embarrassing era. . . probably even more sad than his pathetic and tragically predictable attempt to mimic his mentor's videotapin' ways. . .

Spin spin spin.

The statement was #2 in offense.

But it was poor in scoring.

Had to go back to see how bad. #16.

Not a very good Commentary from that #2 offense IMO.

I could care less about Mc Ds failings but, just have to remind everyone that Shanahan was fired for a reason.

He failed to do much more than average over his last three years. It was time for a new regime, IMO Pat or better yet Joe did us no favors in hiring Mc D without giving him or whomever with a competent GM to mind the store.

So let's agree that that great offense did not get us into the playoffs, because it could not score when it had to.

[dogfish]

So let's agree that that great offense did not get us into the playoffs, because it could not score when it had to.

let's agree that mcdaniels was a disgrace. . .

[DenBronx]

There's a huge difference between the two blowouts. You have to remember just
where the 43-8 one that took place. Thirty other teams were watching that game,
if you know what I mean.
.




In the raiders blowout only maybe the AFCW was interested. When we got blown out againt the Seahawks the whole WORLD was watching. That's the difference. I never thought anything could top 59-14....the shitty part was we had the best offense the NFL has ever seen and we only put up 8 points.

[DenBronx]

Spin spin spin.

The statement was #2 in offense.

But it was poor in scoring.

Had to go back to see how bad. #16.

Not a very good Commentary from that #2 offense IMO.

I could care less about Mc Ds failings but, just have to remind everyone that Shanahan was fired for a reason.

He failed to do much more than average over his last three years. It was time for a new regime, IMO Pat or better yet Joe did us no favors in hiring Mc D without giving him or whomever with a competent GM to mind the store.

So let's agree that that great offense did not get us into the playoffs, because it could not score when it had to.



We did have the 2nd ranked total offense when Shanny was fired. That's a fact. Has nothing to do with just points, it's the offense as a whole unit.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/year/2008

[Northman]

just have to remind everyone that Shanahan was fired for a reason.



Shanahan was fired because he couldnt guide the team back to the SB. It had nothing to do with that particular offense that particular year.

[TXBRONC]

One, actually.

I LOVE that guy.

1 and 3/4.

[atwater27]

All the usual suspects have come out of the shadows defending McDouche and hating on the guy that won us 2 Super Bowls. You'd have thought time and success would have soured their love for little Joshie. They just can't quit him.

[TXBRONC]

All the usual suspects have come out of the shadows defending McDouche and hating on the guy that won us 2 Super Bowls. You'd have thought time and success would have soured their love for little Joshie. They just can't quit him.

There is at leat one poster that likes him but is realitic to some degree.

[topscribe]

Spin spin spin.

The statement was #2 in offense.

But it was poor in scoring.

Had to go back to see how bad. #16.

Not a very good Commentary from that #2 offense IMO.

I could care less about Mc Ds failings but, just have to remind everyone that Shanahan was fired for a reason.

He failed to do much more than average over his last three years. It was time for a new regime, IMO Pat or better yet Joe did us no favors in hiring Mc D without giving him or whomever with a competent GM to mind the store.

So let's agree that that great offense did not get us into the playoffs, because it could not score when it had to.
I think you're getting off the point. But first, you're ignoring the fact that to be
successful in the red zone a team has to have a respectable running game. That
year, the Broncos were #27 in that category and #30 in rushing TDs. That is not
respectable. So more factors than just the QB and receivers go into a scoring
performance.

I'm not sticking up for Shanny. He definitely had his weaknesses. I'm just trying
to call it like it is.

Now, back to the point, I watched in horror as Cutler left McDaniels' office in an
apparent flame of anger, and a promising franchise QB was lost because we had
a so-called GM who never grew up. And then a Pro Bowl WR left, along with
what at that time was a pretty good TE. All because the Broncos had a little
boy in a man's body running the show. That's the point.
.

[luckyseven]

let's agree that mcdaniels was a disgrace. . .

What I will agree to he has a great offensive mind, he should not have been hired by Joe and Pat without a strong FO including a legit experienced GM to give him guidance and run the FO while he coached.

He was questionable in people skills but then that may have been because he was a rookie HC that was also doing the GMs job. We will never know what directions or latitude he got from Joe who seemed to be the guy in charge at the time

It was a mistake on the broncos part to hire him without safeguards in place. IMHO.

[luckyseven]

We did have the 2nd ranked total offense when Shanny was fired. That's a fact. Has nothing to do with just points, it's the offense as a whole unit.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/year/2008

Some judge your offense in yards. But I have never seen yards on the scoreboard. Only points scored.

That is how I judge a team, plus win loss and at those to items we sucked INSPITE having the NUMBER 2 offense S everyone wants to remember. Statics are for losers.

[chazoe60]

What I will agree to he has a great offensive mind, he should not have been hired by Joe and Pat without a strong FO including a legit experienced GM to give him guidance and run the FO while he coached.

He was questionable in people skills but then that may have been because he was a rookie HC that was also doing the GMs job. We will never know what directions or latitude he got from Joe who seemed to be the guy in charge at the time

It was a mistake on the broncos part to hire him without safeguards in place. IMHO.

If his people skills are "questionable" then so were Dahmer's. "Questionable" my ass.

[luckyseven]

Shanahan was fired because he couldnt guide the team back to the SB. It had nothing to do with that particular offense that particular year.

Precisely having a 3 game lead with 3 to go IIRC.

So having the best offense or in this case second best means nothing. All it means is IMO he was fired for a total lack of. Defense which could be because he was micro managing the defense with his latest puppet instead of putting point on th score board.

He was about 3 years to long in the job IMO. Maybe more.

[luckyseven]

I think you're getting off the point. But first, you're ignoring the fact that to be
successful in the red zone a team has to have a respectable running game. That
year, the Broncos were #27 in that category and #30 in rushing TDs. That is not
respectable. So more factors than just the QB and receivers go into a scoring
performance.

I'm not sticking up for Shanny. He definitely had his weaknesses. I'm just trying
to call it like it is.

Now, back to the point, I watched in horror as Cutler left McDaniels' office in an
apparent flame of anger, and a promising franchise QB was lost because we had
a so-called GM who never grew up. And then a Pro Bowl WR left, along with
what at that time was a pretty good TE. All because the Broncos had a little
boy in a man's body running the show. That's the point.
.


Overall I do not disagree except that IMO Cutler is not a FQB close but no cigar, he is that hot head you described and for that reason fails.

Shanahans should have paid more attention to the running game than he did.

Not to get off topic again, but that was a bigger priority in Mc Ds second year whe. He made an attempt to getting bigger on the OL.

Something that Elway has done and has been VERY successful at even though we are now a pass first offense, running only when the defense is stacked against passing.

I'm not a Mc D lover just think he followed a HC that had out lived his prime, McD certainly made mistakes.

[GEM]

And went down hill with talent thereafter except for one year.

How about we admit that Shanahan was not a Rhodes scholar when it came to drafting talent while being easy with Pats money for the free agent mistakes.

Now we actually have separation of state so to speak between HC and GM. That is something to celebrate.

Hello Jr, how have you been?

[7DnBrnc53]

McGriff wasn't a failed attempt at anything, you know why Shanatan draft him? His dad was Shantans college teammate. And if Wilson was such a steal Shanatan had the ammo to move up and make sure he got him, dude had 6 picks in the top 130 and ended up with one full time starter.

Al Wilson, and to a much lesser extent Gary, that's it, the rest were pure garbage.

Lennie ******* Freidman. :Chuckle:

Btw, Reagor wasn't a DT, he was a DE and a shitty one, he later moved to 3-t DT because he was a complete waste of time at DE.

That draft wasn't as bad as Shanahan's 03 and 04 drafts.

[topscribe]

Overall I do not disagree except that IMO Cutler is not a FQB close but no cigar, he is that hot head you described and for that reason fails.

Shanahans should have paid more attention to the running game than he did.

Not to get off topic again, but that was a bigger priority in Mc Ds second year whe. He made an attempt to getting bigger on the OL.

Something that Elway has done and has been VERY successful at even though we are now a pass first offense, running only when the defense is stacked against passing.

I'm not a Mc D lover just think he followed a HC that had out lived his prime, McD certainly made mistakes.
It's worse than that, my friend. McDaniels is just not HC material. Period. He needs
to be under the wing of someone such as Belichick, who will spank him when needed.
.

[dogfish]

Some judge your offense in yards. But I have never seen yards on the scoreboard. Only points scored.

That is how I judge a team, plus win loss and at those to items we sucked INSPITE having the NUMBER 2 offense S everyone wants to remember. Statics are for losers.

mcdaniels is for losers!

:welcome:

[Mike]

Precisely having a 3 game lead with 3 to go IIRC.

So having the best offense or in this case second best means nothing. All it means is IMO he was fired for a total lack of. Defense which could be because he was micro managing the defense with his latest puppet instead of putting point on th score board.

He was about 3 years to long in the job IMO. Maybe more.

I don't think Shanahan had anything to do with the defense. He let his defense coordinators do their thing. His problem was hiring the wrong people and then sticking with them due to personal affection.

He was just here too long. Hot starts, cold finishes...increasing blow-outs to inferior teams...losing the locker-room. It was all there to see, it was just easier to see after the SD loss.

[topscribe]

I don't think Shanahan had anything to do with the defense. He let his defense coordinators do their thing. His problem was hiring the wrong people and then sticking with them due to personal affection.

He was just here too long. Hot starts, cold finishes...increasing blow-outs to inferior teams...losing the locker-room. It was all there to see, it was just easier to see after the SD loss.
Mike, he didn't have any talent in the defense. Dumervil, Champ . . . who else?
I just scoured the defense roster for 2008 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008_roster.htm), and I didn't see anybody. It was a
bad lineup, and Shanny was responsible for drafting and recruiting them.
.

[Mike]

Mike, he didn't have any talent in the defense. Dumervil, Champ . . . who else?
I just scoured the defense roster for 2008 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008_roster.htm), and I didn't see anybody. It was a
bad lineup, and Shanny was responsible for drafting and recruiting them.
.

I don't dispute any of that. I was referring to the coaching side.

[luckyseven]

It's worse than that, my friend. McDaniels is just not HC material. Period. He needs
to be under the wing of someone such as Belichick, who will spank him when needed.
.

Most likely you are correct. Who knows if Elway would have been the GM then what would have happened. Mc D certainly was not ready for the entire load.

[luckyseven]

Mike, he didn't have any talent in the defense. Dumervil, Champ . . . who else?
I just scoured the defense roster for 2008 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008_roster.htm), and I didn't see anybody. It was a
bad lineup, and Shanny was responsible for drafting and recruiting them.
.

You forgot Anderson. Those were the entire returning players from 2008.

[DenBronx]

Some judge your offense in yards. But I have never seen yards on the scoreboard. Only points scored.

That is how I judge a team, plus win loss and at those to items we sucked INSPITE having the NUMBER 2 offense S everyone wants to remember. Statics are for losers.



Still doesnt make what I said any less true. We had the 2nd ranked offense that year. Deal with it.

[DenBronx]

Hello Jr, how have you been?



I am beginning to wonder myself...

[Davii]

Most likely you are correct. Who knows if Elway would have been the GM then what would have happened. Mc D certainly was not ready for the entire load.

That's actually a very easy scenario to predict. Were Elway the GM when Shanny was let go McDouchenozzle would never have been hired in Denver.

Elway would not have made that colossal mistake, period.

[DenBronx]

Thanks dogfish for pointing out my spelling errors. I am have serious brain malfunctions today. Lol

[luckyseven]

That's actually a very easy scenario to predict. Were Elway the GM when Shanny was let go McDouchenozzle would never have been hired in Denver.

Elway would not have made that colossal mistake, period.


Probably true I seem to recall several other choices most of which were Defensive minded guys, i do not remember the names. Although I'm sure someone will and post them.

Mc D was a mistake no doubt, but is he a great OC or is Brady that good? Did he help to make him great or vice versa.

I guess the same question could be asked about John and when Shanahan came in as a QB coach. Or did everyone just complement each other.

Which came first chicken or egg?

[DenBronx]

Mods, can we get an IP check for a duplicate account on isle 9 please? Isle 9.

[Davii]

Probably true I seem to recall several other choices most of which were Defensive minded guys, i do not remember the names. Although I'm sure someone will and post them.

Mc D was a mistake no doubt, but is he a great OC or is Brady that good? Did he help to make him great or vice versa.

I guess the same question could be asked about John and when Shanahan came in as a QB coach. Or did everyone just complement each other.

Which came first chicken or egg?

He has had zero success away from New England. Speaks volumes.

[Nomad]

Cutler is for losers!

:welcome:

I agree!!:D

[MOtorboat]

Mods, can we get an IP check for a duplicate account on isle 9 please? Isle 9.

Aisle.

And the other options that year were basically McDaniels, Frazier and Spagnuolo. So I don't think we can say that Elway wouldn't hire him.

[luckyseven]

Aisle.

And the other options that year were basically McDaniels, Frazier and Spagnuolo. So I don't think we can say that Elway wouldn't hire him.

Spagnola was the hot item for most fans that I recall. He sure did nothing either.

Thanks for the recall of golden oldies.

[Northman]

Aisle.

And the other options that year were basically McDaniels, Frazier and Spagnuolo. So I don't think we can say that Elway wouldn't hire him.

Oh i think so. McDaniels can impress Bowlen but would of never made it past Johnny boy.

[dogfish]

So I don't think we can say that Elway wouldn't hire him.

sure we can. . . elway is just plain too good at the foosball to EVER fail THAT thoroughly. . . his genetics simply wouldn't allow it. . .

it's good to be JFE. . .

[Dzone]

4585
hahahaha thats awesome

[Ravage!!!]

There is NO WAY Elway would have hired that smug lil shit.

[TXBRONC]

There is NO WAY Elway would have hired that smug lil shit.

How did Bowlen get past the lip smacking?

[G_Money]

Josh's first draft, as stated earlier:


1 12 Knowshon Moreno
1 18 Robert Ayers
2 37 Alphonso Smith
2 48 Darcel McBath
2 64 Richard Quinn
4 114 David Bruton
4 132 Seth Olsen Guard
5 141 Kenny McKinley
6 174 Tom Brandstater
7 225 Blake Schlueter
The reason McDaniels's first draft is so bad is that he used 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders to add:
- a running back with one good year - his last one with us
- a rotational DE who kept getting benched by his coach
- a worthless CB cut within the year
- a worthless safety
- a worthless blocking TE (!?)

We took 5 of the top 64 players and ended up with practically nothing. And Josh did that after firing his draft experts and VP of football operations for disagreeing with him. In Shanahan's years we were always back-end drafting, in the 20s of every draft, and sometimes didn't have a first-rounder at all. He was terrible at drafting - until promoting those same Goodmans to the FO that McDaniels fired - but he rarely had as much capital to squander as Josh did that first year.

Here's some guys we missed:

#13 Orakpo
#15 Cushing
#19 Maclin
#21 Mack
#22 Harvin
#23 Oher
#26 Clay Matthews
#29 Hakeen Nicks
#34 Patrick Chung
#35 Laurinaitis
#42 Jairus Byrd
#49 Max Unger
#53 Shady McCoy
#54 Loadholt
#55 William Moore

And that ain't even all the starters or useful players in the top 60. We got none of em. They even had them at positions of need, like S or pass-rusher.

If the 2009 draft was barren, I might have some forgiveness. But blowing that many top picks, after you have the arrogance to get into a fight with your QB and other FO personnel and fire all of em, kinda mitigates my ability to forgive. Yes, Shanahan was a worthless drafter for most of his GM tenure, but he could coach his way out of that deficit to achieve at least respectability. McDaniels couldn't, and lost a team about as fast as I've seen anyone lose a winning organization. That's on him.

~G

[dogfish]

it was, quite simply, a mcdisaster of epic proportions. . .

[dogfish]

If the 2009 draft was barren, I might have some forgiveness. But blowing that many top picks, after you have the arrogance to get into a fight with your QB and other FO personnel and fire all of em, kinda mitigates my ability to forgive. Yes, Shanahan was a worthless drafter for most of his GM tenure, but he could coach his way out of that deficit to achieve at least respectability. McDaniels couldn't, and lost a team about as fast as I've seen anyone lose a winning organization. That's on him.

~G

let's not forget that we were shitty in free agency as well during his tenure. . . all those washed-up new england rejects like jarvis green. . . i knew how far in over his head he was when he traded a 4th for maroney, when marshawn lynch was available for the same price. . . i pretty much gave up hope at that point. . .

[Northman]

Dude was so effing bad..... But then his coaching record spoke for itself.

[Cugel]

Or Cugel's misrepresentation of the facts. Bowlen himself mandated the trade after Cutler claimed he didn't trust Bowlen. He even said as much in his letter to season ticket holders.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12040620

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4042472

Nice time straining at gnats and swallowing camels whole there bud!

Bowlen decided to get rid of Cutler AFTER the whole thing blew up -- after trade blew up in McMoron's face, and after McMoron's arrogant performance in the meeting with Cutler, which was entirely due to McMoron's decision to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel in the first place, after the fans and media were roasting McMoron as a liar and a buffoon, and he had to find a way to deflect all the criticism by blaming others.

He could either have kept Cutler and forgotten about his imbecilic lust for Cassel and not tried to trade in the first place, which was the logical thing to begin with, or he could have told Cutler and his agent "I'm going to trade you" when he assumed the job, and then worked out the best possible deal -- which would have been multiple #1 picks, not Kyle Orton.

Either way there would have been no blow-up, hence no need for Bowlen to get involved unless McMoron screwed the pooch to begin with. And he did that by lying to start with.

Honesty would have solved both these problems. Except that McMoron didn't want to accept responsibility for trading Cutler. He wanted to cover his ass and blame everybody else for his screw ups. He even could have admitted: "I tried to trade for Matt Cassel, and it got out of hand. I'm sorry I didn't tell Cutler in advance and I hope we can work things out now."

And that trend of basic dishonesty and refusal to accept responsibility for anything continued to the point where he tried to blame his assistant coaches for Spygate and tried to threaten them with firing if any of them told anybody about what had happened. That got him fired before the end of the season.

He's simply a slimy, basically dishonest weasel. And it boomeranged on him as it usually does in life.

[Cugel]

Josh's first draft, as stated earlier:

The reason McDaniels's first draft is so bad is that he used 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders to add:
- a running back with one good year - his last one with us
- a rotational DE who kept getting benched by his coach
- a worthless CB cut within the year
- a worthless safety
- a worthless blocking TE (!?)

We took 5 of the top 64 players and ended up with practically nothing. And Josh did that after firing his draft experts and VP of football operations for disagreeing with him. In Shanahan's years we were always back-end drafting, in the 20s of every draft, and sometimes didn't have a first-rounder at all. He was terrible at drafting - until promoting those same Goodmans to the FO that McDaniels fired - but he rarely had as much capital to squander as Josh did that first year.

Here's some guys we missed:

#13 Orakpo
#15 Cushing
#19 Maclin
#21 Mack
#22 Harvin
#23 Oher
#26 Clay Matthews
#29 Hakeen Nicks
#34 Patrick Chung
#35 Laurinaitis
#42 Jairus Byrd
#49 Max Unger
#53 Shady McCoy
#54 Loadholt
#55 William Moore

And that ain't even all the starters or useful players in the top 60. We got none of em. They even had them at positions of need, like S or pass-rusher.

If the 2009 draft was barren, I might have some forgiveness. But blowing that many top picks, after you have the arrogance to get into a fight with your QB and other FO personnel and fire all of em, kinda mitigates my ability to forgive. Yes, Shanahan was a worthless drafter for most of his GM tenure, but he could coach his way out of that deficit to achieve at least respectability. McDaniels couldn't, and lost a team about as fast as I've seen anyone lose a winning organization. That's on him.

~G

Basically, multiply this by 2 to account for McMoron's getting screwed in the Cutler trade and you have the true picture.

Step 1: Cause a huge problem for yourself by trying to trade for Matt Cassel and screwing it up.

Step 2: Trade Cutler to Chicago without even getting top value because of his idiotic decision that he wanted Kyle Orton.

Step 3: Screw up the picks he did get. You focused on Step 3, which is accurate.

But, ignoring Steps 1 and 2 paints an incomplete picture.

[atwater27]

Josh's first draft, as stated earlier:


The reason McDaniels's first draft is so bad is that he used 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders to add:
- a running back with one good year - his last one with us
- a rotational DE who kept getting benched by his coach
- a worthless CB cut within the year
- a worthless safety
- a worthless blocking TE (!?)

We took 5 of the top 64 players and ended up with practically nothing. And Josh did that after firing his draft experts and VP of football operations for disagreeing with him. In Shanahan's years we were always back-end drafting, in the 20s of every draft, and sometimes didn't have a first-rounder at all. He was terrible at drafting - until promoting those same Goodmans to the FO that McDaniels fired - but he rarely had as much capital to squander as Josh did that first year.

Here's some guys we missed:

#13 Orakpo
#15 Cushing
#19 Maclin
#21 Mack
#22 Harvin
#23 Oher
#26 Clay Matthews
#29 Hakeen Nicks
#34 Patrick Chung
#35 Laurinaitis
#42 Jairus Byrd
#49 Max Unger
#53 Shady McCoy
#54 Loadholt
#55 William Moore

And that ain't even all the starters or useful players in the top 60. We got none of em. They even had them at positions of need, like S or pass-rusher.

If the 2009 draft was barren, I might have some forgiveness. But blowing that many top picks, after you have the arrogance to get into a fight with your QB and other FO personnel and fire all of em, kinda mitigates my ability to forgive. Yes, Shanahan was a worthless drafter for most of his GM tenure, but he could coach his way out of that deficit to achieve at least respectability. McDaniels couldn't, and lost a team about as fast as I've seen anyone lose a winning organization. That's on him.

~G
Gmoney has spoken. He IS the final word.

[Dreadnought]

let's not forget that we were shitty in free agency as well during his tenure. . . all those washed-up new england rejects like jarvis green. . . i knew how far in over his head he was when he traded a 4th for maroney, when marshawn lynch was available for the same price. . . i pretty much gave up hope at that point. . .

Lamont Jordan. Lamont freakin' Jordan. Guy ran like he had a load in his pants. Ack

[TXBRONC]

I'm still shocked at how bad the 2009 draft class was as a whole.

:lol: No. There was plenty of talent that he passed on in the 2009 draft.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Josh McDaniel's drafts were so bad Al Davis was embarrassed.

[Simple Jaded]

Hates Shanatan and loves Tim Tebow, luckyseven is Jrwiz.

[Cugel]

:lol: No. There was plenty talent that he passed on the 2009 draft.

Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews would have been pretty good picks for any team. And the Broncos could and should have had both.

[TXBRONC]

Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews would have been pretty good picks for any team. And the Broncos could and should have had both.

It's actually possible that Denver could have drafted Orakpo, Matthews, McCoy and Bird. In reality I don't think they could have pulled that off and gotten all four but they could have had at least two if not three of the four.

[tomjonesrocks]

Josh's first draft, as stated earlier: The reason McDaniels's first draft is so bad is that he used 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders to add: - a running back with one good year - his last one with us - a rotational DE who kept getting benched by his coach - a worthless CB cut within the year - a worthless safety - a worthless blocking TE (!?) We took 5 of the top 64 players and ended up with practically nothing. And Josh did that after firing his draft experts and VP of football operations for disagreeing with him. In Shanahan's years we were always back-end drafting, in the 20s of every draft, and sometimes didn't have a first-rounder at all. He was terrible at drafting - until promoting those same Goodmans to the FO that McDaniels fired - but he rarely had as much capital to squander as Josh did that first year. Here's some guys we missed: #13 Orakpo #15 Cushing #19 Maclin #21 Mack #22 Harvin #23 Oher #26 Clay Matthews #29 Hakeen Nicks #34 Patrick Chung #35 Laurinaitis #42 Jairus Byrd #49 Max Unger #53 Shady McCoy #54 Loadholt #55 William Moore And that ain't even all the starters or useful players in the top 60. We got none of em. They even had them at positions of need, like S or pass-rusher. If the 2009 draft was barren, I might have some forgiveness. But blowing that many top picks, after you have the arrogance to get into a fight with your QB and other FO personnel and fire all of em, kinda mitigates my ability to forgive. Yes, Shanahan was a worthless drafter for most of his GM tenure, but he could coach his way out of that deficit to achieve at least respectability. McDaniels couldn't, and lost a team about as fast as I've seen anyone lose a winning organization. That's on him. ~G Ugh, that draft-miss-list makes me want to throw up. That's just misery there...

[Simple Jaded]

Aisle.

And the other options that year were basically McDaniels, Frazier and Spagnuolo. So I don't think we can say that Elway wouldn't hire him.

Well, Rex Ryan was an option too, was my second choice behind Spagnuolo because I felt that the obvious choice was a defensive minded HC. I honestly couldn't think of a better HC for Cutler and that offense than Ryan because there wasn't any reason to scrap the offensive coaching staff and Ryan had the clout to handle Cutler and Marshall.

Schwartz was given a chance that year too.

[tomjonesrocks]

Overall in hindsight Bowlen picked the wrong year to shitcan Shanahan.

There were basically no good coaching options available.

[Dreadnought]

Overall in hindsight Bowlen picked the wrong year to shitcan Shanahan.

There were basically no good coaching options available.

I think it was a reactive emotional move. That Chargers game was brutal. I understand it, but I never liked it.

[tomjonesrocks]

I think it was a reactive emotional move. That Chargers game was brutal. I understand it, but I never liked it.

Denver never had a chance against that Chargers team. The two losses prior setting up the showdown ended that season.

Really the utterly gutless "win and get in" loss to a 49ers team with nothing to play for a year earlier was just as bad to me or worse.

Bowlen probably couldn't fire Shanahan after that even if he was considering it that season with the shooting thereafter. But that team had just zero heart and that was an inexcusable effort. I really hated that loss.

[TXBRONC]

Dude was so effing bad..... But then his coaching record spoke for itself.

Ragnar is a badass and he needs a bath.

[7DnBrnc53]

Denver never had a chance against that Chargers team. The two losses prior setting up the showdown ended that season.

Really the utterly gutless "win and get in" loss to a 49ers team with nothing to play for a year earlier was just as bad to me or worse.

Bowlen probably couldn't fire Shanahan after that even if he was considering it that season with the shooting thereafter. But that team had just zero heart and that was an inexcusable effort. I really hated that loss.

Someone on the South Stands Denver Fancast did an article about the Darrent Williams situation. He thinks that Shanahan would have been fired if no Bronco players died on the night of Dec. 31, 2006.

I don't know if that's true, but if it was, I wonder who would have been our coach.

Ken Whisehunt?

Mike Tomlin?

Mike Singletary?

It's hard to say.

I do know this: It was too late/early to fire Shanny by the end of 08. It was too late because he didn't fire him a year or two earlier, and that offense was starting to morph into a juggernaut, and it was too early because Mike started to draft higher character players in his last year there. He should have gotten one more year down this new path, playoffs or not.

[TXBRONC]

Someone on the South Stands Denver Fancast did an article about the Darrent Williams situation. He thinks that Shanahan would have been fired if no Bronco players died on the night of Dec. 31, 2006.

I don't know if that's true, but if it was, I wonder who would have been our coach.

Ken Whisehunt?

Mike Tomlin?

Mike Singletary?

It's hard to say.

I do know this: It was too late/early to fire Shanny by the end of 08. It was too late because he didn't fire him a year or two earlier, and that offense was starting to morph into a juggernaut, and it was too early because Mike started to draft higher character players in his last year there. He should have gotten one more year down this new path, playoffs or not.

I doubt that's true. There was one game left in the season and Denver stiill had a chance to make the playoffs. That would go against Bowlen's history. The other two head coaches that he fired got to finish out the season before they were fired. McDaniels is only the head coach fired under Bowlen's ownship before the season had ended.

[Simple Jaded]

Shanatan shoulda been fired in 04-05 or not at all, he really started to improve his personnel decisions towards the end. Legitimate OL, a franchise QB, actual WR's, all he needed to do was improve the defense.

To be honest, he should have been long before 05, or at least had personnel decisions taken away.

[7DnBrnc53]

Shanatan shoulda been fired in 04-05 or not at all, he really started to improve his personnel decisions towards the end. Legitimate OL, a franchise QB, actual WR's, all he needed to do was improve the defense.

To be honest, he should have been long before 05, or at least had personnel decisions taken away.

I remember the guy who runs the Sports E-cyclopedia, and in his 05 picks, he said that the Broncos would do bad, and that Shanny would be canned at season's end.

They played terrible in Week 1 against Miami, and were down 14-3 at the half in Week 2 against San Diego.

Then, Champ makes a big INT return for a TD, and everything changes.

If they didn't win that game, though, and if they would had the season that they had in 06 in 05, Shanny may have gotten tossed.