PDA

View Full Version : Robert Ayers, New York Giants sign contract



Denver Native (Carol)
04-02-2014, 11:08 AM
The New York Giants are adding a veteran defensive lineman to help make up for the loss of Justin Tuck.

The team announced it signed defensive end Robert Ayers on Wednesday. Fox Sports reported the deal was a two-year agreement.

Ayers, 28, was selected in the first round by the Denver Broncos in 2009 and started 11 games at outside linebacker (2009-'10) and 16 games at defensive end (2011-'13) in five seasons in the Mile High City.

rest - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000338909/article/robert-ayers-new-york-giants-sign-contract

Bosco
04-02-2014, 12:18 PM
Good move for him. He is an excellent rotational players and the Giants use lots of varying player packages on their line.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-02-2014, 12:51 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 1h

Denver Giants now have signed former Broncos Robert Ayers, CB Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and return specialist Trindon Holliday.

DenBronx
04-02-2014, 01:09 PM
They are now officially the Giancos.

DenBronx
04-02-2014, 01:11 PM
I was think Ayers would be the guy the would at least get us 1 comp pick next year. After seeing we signed the scrub C Montgomery that might not even be the case now.....why did we even sign him? He's been terrible from what I hear.

Bronco9798
04-02-2014, 02:17 PM
I kept waiting for Ayers to make that move and be an impact player. I guess Giant fans will have to wait now.

CoachChaz
04-02-2014, 02:18 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 1h

Denver Giants now have signed former Broncos Robert Ayers, CB Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and return specialist Trindon Holliday.

Dont forget Walton

TXBRONC
04-02-2014, 04:59 PM
He's wasn't that good of a rotational player; Malik Jackson is amuch rotational player than Ayers.

Traveler
04-03-2014, 08:05 AM
With Ayers now in NY, that leaves Bruton as the only remaining player from the 2009 draft. That's two 1st's and three 2nd's with nothing to show for it.

Jaded
04-03-2014, 08:11 AM
Dont forget Walton

Who?

TXBRONC
04-03-2014, 08:53 AM
With Ayers now in NY, that leaves Bruton as the only remaining player from the 2009 draft. That's two 1st's and three 2nd's with nothing to show for it.

Out of four number one picks from th '09 and '10 combined only Demaryius Thomas remains.

DenBronx
04-03-2014, 10:57 AM
Not to mention what we had to pay to trade up to get Cutler originally when we drafted him.

Traveler
04-03-2014, 11:20 AM
Out of four number one picks from th '09 and '10 combined only Demaryius Thomas remains.

Piss poor return! Except for last year with both Moreno & Ayers contributing.

Bosco
04-03-2014, 02:10 PM
He's wasn't that good of a rotational player; Malik Jackson is amuch rotational player than Ayers.

Robert Ayers was a solid starter on this team for two years, and then a very good role player. So far, Malik has only done the later.


With Ayers now in NY, that leaves Bruton as the only remaining player from the 2009 draft. That's two 1st's and three 2nd's with nothing to show for it. That's a five year old draft. All those other players have had their contracts expire and move on.

Traveler
04-03-2014, 02:29 PM
Robert Ayers was a solid starter on this team for two years, and then a very good role player. So far, Malik has only done the later.

That's a five year old draft. All those other players have had their contracts expire and move on.

Don't mean to call you out like this, but really? Only Moreno & Ayers did that. Everyone else (sans Bruton) was cut, never made the roster, or passed away.



1 Knowshon Moreno- Contract Expired
1 Robert Ayers- Contract Expired
2 Alphonso Smith- Cut
2 Darcel McBath- Cut
2 Richard Quinn- Cut
4 David Bruton-Remains with team
4 Seth Olsen- Cut
5 Kenny McKinley-Passed away (sadly)
6 Tom Brandstater- Cut
7 Blake Schlueter- Cut



A look at the Denver Broncos' roster and the Class of 2009 doesn't have as many players in the team's foundation as it should.

Those picks are now fifth-year players and should be several members of the core lineup -- poised to be signed for the long term with the team if things have gone the way it was hoped.


At least part of the depth issues the Broncos faced in the two previous seasons as well as in this training camp at times, can be traced to the significant hole left behind from both the 2009 and 2010 drafts.

-Jeff Legwold 2013 ESPN Article



http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/60655/revisiting-denvers-2009-draft-class

TXBRONC
04-03-2014, 03:43 PM
Not to mention what we had to pay to trade up to get Cutler originally when we drafted him.

I remember McDaniels trading a first round pick to move up in the second round to seclect Alphoso Smith and then traded for a seventh pick the very next season.

TXBRONC
04-03-2014, 03:48 PM
Robert Ayers was a solid starter on this team for two years, and then a very good role player. So far, Malik has only done the later.

That's a five year old draft. All those other players have had their contracts expire and move on.

No he wasn't a solid starter for two seasons average at best. If he was solid starter he wouldn't have been replaced by Wolfe and it was fiasco with Dumervil that lead him to being starter not his play. It was by default he ended up a starter.

Your second response is also incorrect. Most of the draft picks that were here when McDipshit was fired were cut after he left. The ones whose contracts expired were allowed to go without a fight. I would have liked to kept Decker but he was going to be to expensive and if they had re-signed Moreno that would have been ok although I think he is easier to replace than Decker. In fact we already Moreno's replacement on the team in Montee Ball. I am confident he will better than Moreno.

TXBRONC
04-04-2014, 06:49 AM
Don't mean to call you out like this, but really? Only Moreno & Ayers did that. Everyone else (sans Bruton) was cut, never made the roster, or passed away.



1 Knowshon Moreno- Contract Expired
1 Robert Ayers- Contract Expired
2 Alphonso Smith- Cut
2 Darcel McBath- Cut
2 Richard Quinn- Cut
4 David Bruton-Remains with team
4 Seth Olsen- Cut
5 Kenny McKinley-Passed away (sadly)
6 Tom Brandstater- Cut
7 Blake Schlueter- Cut








http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/60655/revisiting-denvers-2009-draft-class

I thought Alphonso Smith was traded to Detroit for a seventh round pick? Nevertheless Smith who was a second round pick and was gone just one year later. Worse yet McDaniels traded a first round pick to move up in the second round to take him.

Cugel
04-04-2014, 02:07 PM
With Ayers now in NY, that leaves Bruton as the only remaining player from the 2009 draft. That's two 1st's and three 2nd's with nothing to show for it.

Oh, it's a lot worse than that!

Everybody thought we would take Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews with those picks. Orakpo was such an obvious pick that when the first Broncos pick came up, the Redskins (desperately wanting Orakpo) called McDaniels to work a trade whereby Denver would swap 1st round picks with them (moving down 1 spot) and pick up a 3rd (I think). McDaniels told them not to bother. "You're going to get your guy." He said, declining the free gift. The Redskins front office just laughed at Denver for the utter imbecile running the team as long as McMoron was here.

That might have been the single stupidest thing any GM has ever done in the history of the NFL, and that includes the drafting of Ryan Leaf!

Bosco
04-04-2014, 02:12 PM
Don't mean to call you out like this, but really? Only Moreno & Ayers did that. Everyone else (sans Bruton) was cut, never made the roster, or passed away.

I should have clarified that I was speaking on a league wide scale, not just the Broncos.


No he wasn't a solid starter for two seasons average at best. If he was solid starter he wouldn't have been replaced by Wolfe and it was fiasco with Dumervil that lead him to being starter not his play. It was by default he ended up a starter. We've long established that when it comes to football knowledge, you're bottom of the barrel. Literally.

That said, Ayers filled in exceptionally well for Dumervil in 2010, even despite going through his second position change in as many years. When he got hurt, our already shaky defense got worse. He made his third position change the next year, started all season. He was a rotational player in 2012 and 2013, but a very good one even after switching positions again in 2013.

Unfortunately, you were probably like a lot of people who weren't educated enough to know that Ayers was not drafted to be a sack master.

underrated29
04-04-2014, 02:12 PM
I thought Alphonso Smith was traded to Detroit for a seventh round pick? Nevertheless Smith who was a second round pick and was gone just one year later. Worse yet McDaniels traded a first round pick to move up in the second round to take him.



I think you are right. I think we then also traded tony scheffler to the lions for Gronks little brother who also sucked ass. We got raped by mcdaniels stupid trades and picks.

Bosco
04-04-2014, 02:13 PM
Oh, it's a lot worse than that!

Everybody thought we would take Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews with those picks. Orakpo was such an obvious pick that when the first Broncos pick came up, the Redskins (desperately wanting Orakpo) called McDaniels to work a trade whereby Denver would swap 1st round picks with them (moving down 1 spot) and pick up a 3rd (I think). McDaniels told them not to bother. "You're going to get your guy." He said, declining the free gift. The Redskins front office just laughed at Denver for the utter imbecile running the team as long as McMoron was here.

That might have been the single stupidest thing any GM has ever done in the history of the NFL, and that includes the drafting of Ryan Leaf!

I'm curious, do you actually have a source for those claims?

Cugel
04-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Sorry, but Ayers was just crap. He was handed his job when Dumervil walked and he was decidedly mediocre. He got a mediocre contract from the Giants too. Two years -- $1 million signing bonus, and $1.75M guaranteed.

For a veteran FA DE, that's below league average. The Broncos didn't even bother to make him an offer, despite the low salary it would have taken to keep him here. They just didn't want him.

But, the crap fest that was McMoron didn't peak until 2010 of course, when in a binding blizzard of moves he managed to throw away the #14 pick of the draft . . . to Seattle who drafted S Earl Thomas of course. You might remember him from the SB. He should have been playing here.

underrated29
04-04-2014, 02:20 PM
I'm curious, do you actually have a source for those claims?



I remember the same report and he nailed it almost word for word.

Cugel
04-04-2014, 02:20 PM
I'm curious, do you actually have a source for those claims?

This is ancient history. It's been widely known in the league and was reported in the Washington press at the time. None of this is new stuff you know. McMoron was dumber than a big bag of rocks. Is that some kind of surprise to you? :laugh:

EDIT: Since you want to be a TWIT for exactitude, I confess that I'm not sure about the proposed compensation. It might be that the Redskins never got around to making an offer because McMoron told them "Don't worry. You'll get your guy" indicating that he wasn't going to draft Orakpo. Then he sent in his card for Moreno. The Redskins front office joked about it afterwards to reporters, saying "can you imagine that guy?" and shaking their heads.

Bosco
04-04-2014, 02:35 PM
I remember the same report and he nailed it almost word for word.

Interesting. I searched Google and found nothing. I'd be interested to read it though, especially to see if the author is someone who is credible. I'd have a tough time believing that an NFL head coach--especially one who maneuvered so masterfully just a year later--would turn down a free third round pick with no risk attached. I suppose it's possible, but it certainly doesn't pass the smell test.


Sorry, but Ayers was just crap. He was handed his job when Dumervil walked Really? They never once played the same position. Ayers was penciled in as the starting SOLB in 2010 and only moved over to the weakside when Doom went down. He started on the complete opposite of the line the next year.

Facts. You should look into them.

Cugel
04-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Interesting. I searched Google and found nothing. I'd be interested to read it though, especially to see if the author is someone who is credible. I'd have a tough time believing that an NFL head coach--especially one who maneuvered so masterfully just a year later--would turn down a free third round pick with no risk attached. I suppose it's possible, but it certainly doesn't pass the smell test.
Just because some article is no longer posted on the internet doesn't mean it never existed. This was minor news at the time. In Denver it never got a lot of press because nobody wanted to believe at the time that McMoron was that stupid.

Plus, I'm not certain it was a 3rd round pick. It's possible compensation was never discussed because McMoron told them "don't worry, you'll get your guy" and short-circuited the trade discussions before they got to their specific offer.

But, that was the report at the time. You still Jonesing for McMoron after all the absolutely INCREDIBLE blunders he made and the way he ran the team utterly into the ground?

What part of this reported criminal imbecility was beyond him, just based on his proven record of utter incompetence?

Really? They never once played the same position. Ayers was penciled in as the starting SOLB in 2010 and only moved over to the weakside when Doom went down. He started on the complete opposite of the line the next year.

But I never said they played the same position did I? The Broncos moved the entire DL around when Doom left. So, Ayers wound up starting. Had he stayed, he and Wolfe would have started and Ayers wouldn't.

Bosco
04-04-2014, 02:46 PM
Just because some article is no longer posted on the internet doesn't mean it never existed. This was minor news at the time. In Denver it never got a lot of press because nobody wanted to believe at the time that McMoron was that stupid.

Plus, I'm not certain it was a 3rd round pick. It's possible compensation was never discussed because McMoron told them "don't worry, you'll get your guy" and short-circuited the trade discussions before they got to their specific offer.

I don't doubt you actually saw the report, since another poster confirmed it's existence. I do doubt the accuracy of the report, as if it was something that was regarded as credible it surely would have received media play...especially in the Denver market that was still very hostile to McDaniels.

tomjonesrocks
04-04-2014, 03:15 PM
I remember the same report and he nailed it almost word for word.

Ditto.

bcbronc
04-04-2014, 03:43 PM
shit, 3 division crowns and an AFC championship later and we're still on the "McMoron ruined this franchise for a decade" schtick, eh. Marshall was the only guy McDaniels dumped that ended up being anything special, and DT/Decker more than made up for that loss.

Ayers was a solid rotational player, but the "best defensive player of his draft" hype from Mayock hurt expectations. I think he'll end up being a solid signing for NYG...won't replace Tuck but he'll give them another solid DE.

Northman
04-04-2014, 03:48 PM
McDaniels sucked, plain and simple but if anyone thinks they are going to convince Bosco otherwise ought to just stop now. You are better off beating your head against a brick wall than to try and continue that debate. lol

Bosco
04-04-2014, 04:58 PM
McDaniels sucked, plain and simple but if anyone thinks they are going to convince Bosco otherwise ought to just stop now. You are better off beating your head against a brick wall than to try and continue that debate. lol

I'm not at all disputing the effectiveness of McDaniels' tenure here.

TXBRONC
04-04-2014, 05:13 PM
I'm not at all disputing the effectiveness of McDaniels' tenure here.

Well using worth like Ayers was an excellent rotational player makes it's sounds like you think he was effective.

Ayers wasn't excellent rotational player. Moreno on the other hand was excellent in this offense.

TXBRONC
04-04-2014, 07:34 PM
I should have clarified that I was speaking on a league wide scale, not just the Broncos.

We've long established that when it comes to football knowledge, you're bottom of the barrel. Literally.

That said, Ayers filled in exceptionally well for Dumervil in 2010, even despite going through his second position change in as many years. When he got hurt, our already shaky defense got worse. He made his third position change the next year, started all season. He was a rotational player in 2012 and 2013, but a very good one even after switching positions again in 2013.

Unfortunately, you were probably like a lot of people who weren't educated enough to know that Ayers was not drafted to be a sack master.

You've never proven anything.

Ayers was so good that Denver let him walk. You're incredibly ignorant Ayers was drafted to develops into a a pass rusher.

TXBRONC
04-04-2014, 07:38 PM
I think you are right. I think we then also traded tony scheffler to the lions for Gronks little brother who also sucked ass. We got raped by mcdaniels stupid trades and picks.

Pretty much. Even a few have turnout it doesn't make cluster __________ of the other picks including Ayers.

TXBRONC
04-04-2014, 07:42 PM
shit, 3 division crowns and an AFC championship later and we're still on the "McMoron ruined this franchise for a decade" schtick, eh. Marshall was the only guy McDaniels dumped that ended up being anything special, and DT/Decker more than made up for that loss.

Ayers was a solid rotational player, but the "best defensive player of his draft" hype from Mayock hurt expectations. I think he'll end up being a solid signing for NYG...won't replace Tuck but he'll give them another solid DE.

That's what Mayock said of Ayers. He said that Ayers could end being the defense end of his draft class in two to three years. Obviously that never happened.

Northman
04-04-2014, 08:36 PM
I'm not at all disputing the effectiveness of McDaniels' tenure here.

No, but i do know you are pretty avid (or were) supporter of his. Nothing wrong with that as that is your opinion, etc i just know your stance on McD. But there are always going to be people on one side or the other when it comes to his tenure here.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-04-2014, 10:26 PM
McDaniels had 9 first and second round picks in his two years. Only two were perpetual starters and only one of the 9 is still on the team.

Jaded
04-04-2014, 11:00 PM
Robert Ayers was drafted 18th overall to set the edge? Sounds like Josh McDaniels.

Jaded
04-04-2014, 11:25 PM
This is ancient history. It's been widely known in the league and was reported in the Washington press at the time. None of this is new stuff you know. McMoron was dumber than a big bag of rocks. Is that some kind of surprise to you? :laugh:

EDIT: Since you want to be a TWIT for exactitude, I confess that I'm not sure about the proposed compensation. It might be that the Redskins never got around to making an offer because McMoron told them "Don't worry. You'll get your guy" indicating that he wasn't going to draft Orakpo. Then he sent in his card for Moreno. The Redskins front office joked about it afterwards to reporters, saying "can you imagine that guy?" and shaking their heads.

It was Vinny Cerrato who related the story.

Jaded
04-04-2014, 11:33 PM
Interesting. I searched Google and found nothing. I'd be interested to read it though, especially to see if the author is someone who is credible. I'd have a tough time believing that an NFL head coach--especially one who maneuvered so masterfully just a year later--would turn down a free third round pick with no risk attached. I suppose it's possible, but it certainly doesn't pass the smell test.

Really? They never once played the same position. Ayers was penciled in as the starting SOLB in 2010 and only moved over to the weakside when Doom went down. He started on the complete opposite of the line the next year.

Facts. You should look into them.

Keep looking, it's there.

TXBRONC
04-05-2014, 12:32 AM
Oh, it's a lot worse than that!

Everybody thought we would take Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews with those picks. Orakpo was such an obvious pick that when the first Broncos pick came up, the Redskins (desperately wanting Orakpo) called McDaniels to work a trade whereby Denver would swap 1st round picks with them (moving down 1 spot) and pick up a 3rd (I think). McDaniels told them not to bother. "You're going to get your guy." He said, declining the free gift. The Redskins front office just laughed at Denver for the utter imbecile running the team as long as McMoron was here.

That might have been the single stupidest thing any GM has ever done in the history of the NFL, and that includes the drafting of Ryan Leaf!


Here's a pre-draft story from 2010 it mentions that the Redskins "dream scenario" was for Orakpo to fall to them 13th overall pick. They thought it was unrealistic for them to get Orakpo with 13th over all pick. Little did they know there were dealing with a moron.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/vinny-cerrato/count/31

Jaded
04-05-2014, 02:32 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8288ce03/article/cerrato-redskins-almost-drafted-lesean-mccoy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/draft-day-stories-from-vinny-cerrato/2012/04/23/gIQAfFwncT_blog.html

I can imagine Doogie turning down the 3rd round pick as a first step in starting to establish relationships with FO people, which doesn't make it any less idiotic. There's also a really good chance that he was way, way in over his head and had no business running an NFL franchise in any way, shape or form.

Cugel
04-05-2014, 03:38 AM
No he wasn't a solid starter for two seasons average at best. If he was solid starter he wouldn't have been replaced by Wolfe and it was fiasco with Dumervil that lead him to being starter not his play. It was by default he ended up a starter.

Your second response is also incorrect. Most of the draft picks that were here when McDipshit was fired were cut after he left. The ones whose contracts expired were allowed to go without a fight. I would have liked to kept Decker but he was going to be to expensive and if they had re-signed Moreno that would have been ok although I think he is easier to replace than Decker. In fact we already Moreno's replacement on the team in Montee Ball. I am confident he will better than Moreno.

100% correct. The thing fans forget is all the horribly blown opportunities resulting from the Cutler trade. The Broncos first blew that trade because McMoron wanted Kyle Orton as his starting QB after he couldn't get the amazing Matt Cassel. Then they blew all the picks resulting from it. That kind of thing haunts a team for many years.

Seattle is the strongest team in the NFL right now because they didn't do that. They made good use of all their picks and amassed real depth. In the SB it showed.

The Broncos are a somewhat better than average team, not a great team, with a Hall of Fame QB. Just like in the Elway era.

I remember that after Elway retired Shannon Sharpe was arguing with his teammates who arrogantly were expecting to cruise back to the SB -- with Bubby Brister as their QB. He told them "we were a good team with 1 great player." He was right.

And a few Bubby Brister, Brian Griese, Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, Kyle Orton, Tim Tebows later, it's obvious.

If Manning had signed with the Titans or something, this team would have finished 3rd or 4th in the AFC West and the fans would be screaming for Fox to draft a QB to replace Brock Osweiler about now. (And no, Tim Tebow would still be out of the NFL because NOBODY could make a successful QB out of that useless Chode).

Cugel
04-05-2014, 03:46 AM
Well thanks for making the effort to find that story Jaded. It just shows absolutely monumental stupidity. So it WAS a 3rd round pick that Denver was offered and which McMoron just threw away! "No. Don't give us a 3rd round pick because you don't need to. You're going to get your guy anyway."


"the year that we were gonna take Orapko [sic], you know, we were trying to trade up with everybody, trying to trade up. Then Denver’s on the clock the pick before us, and I called them. How about this, I offer them a third-round pick to swap, and they called me back and they said No, you’re gonna get your guy, don’t worry about it, you don’t have to trade. How about that one? [Laughter.]"

This story is now confirmed in every detail. The source was Vinny Cerrato, the former Redskins GM who was the guy who McMoron talked to directly.

Well, if it's any consolation McMoron would have simply blown that pick anyway just as he did with so many others, like drafting Moreno and Ayers and Darcel McBath instead of Orakpo and Clay Matthews and Earl Thomas, not to mention actually LOSING draft position in a bunch of trades so that he could scoop up Tim Tebow. So it wouldn't have made any difference. :coffee:

Even more consolation: IF McMoron HAD drafted Orakpo and Matthews and Earl Thomas he would very probably have kept his job, in which case Elway would not be the GM, and Fox would not be coach, and Peyton Manning would have signed somewhere else and Denver would have been the laughing stock of the league with an absolutely killer defense, but Tim Tebow at QB the last couple of years. And we would never have gotten near the SB.

dogfish
04-05-2014, 04:50 PM
There's also a really good chance that he was way, way in over his head and had no business running an NFL franchise in any way, shape or form.

nah, that's not a "possibility"-- that's an established fact. . .

Bosco
04-05-2014, 07:49 PM
Well thanks for making the effort to find that story Jaded. It just shows absolutely monumental stupidity. So it WAS a 3rd round pick that Denver was offered and which McMoron just threw away! "No. Don't give us a 3rd round pick because you don't need to. You're going to get your guy anyway."


This story is now confirmed in every detail. The source was Vinny Cerrato, the former Redskins GM who was the guy who McMoron talked to directly.

Well, if it's any consolation McMoron would have simply blown that pick anyway just as he did with so many others, like drafting Moreno and Ayers and Darcel McBath instead of Orakpo and Clay Matthews and Earl Thomas, not to mention actually LOSING draft position in a bunch of trades so that he could scoop up Tim Tebow. So it wouldn't have made any difference. :coffee:

Even more consolation: IF McMoron HAD drafted Orakpo and Matthews and Earl Thomas he would very probably have kept his job, in which case Elway would not be the GM, and Fox would not be coach, and Peyton Manning would have signed somewhere else and Denver would have been the laughing stock of the league with an absolutely killer defense, but Tim Tebow at QB the last couple of years. And we would never have gotten near the SB.

There is nothing in there that says it was McDaniels they talked to. It simply says they spoke to someone in the Broncos war room.

TXBRONC
04-05-2014, 11:58 PM
:rofl:

Jaded
04-06-2014, 01:19 AM
There is nothing in there that says it was McDaniels they talked to. It simply says they spoke to someone in the Broncos war room.

Actually there are several articles saying it was Doogie, I've read them, had I known you'd be a bitch about it I'd of posted them too. Keep looking, they're out there.

MOtorboat
04-06-2014, 01:26 AM
There is nothing in there that says it was McDaniels they talked to. It simply says they spoke to someone in the Broncos war room.

OMG. From one person who liked McDaniels to another.

Just ******* stop.

Jaded
04-06-2014, 01:26 AM
Even more consolation: IF McMoron HAD drafted Orakpo and Matthews and Earl Thomas he would very probably have kept his job, in which case Elway would not be the GM, and Fox would not be coach, and Peyton Manning would have signed somewhere else and Denver would have been the laughing stock of the league with an absolutely killer defense, but Tim Tebow at QB the last couple of years. And we would never have gotten near the SB.

There's no way of knowing for sure that Tebow be starting QB, McDaniels is the only one who has refused to put him in the starting lineup. Even when it could have saved his job he wouldn't start him.

luckyseven
04-06-2014, 02:24 AM
McDaniels had 9 first and second round picks in his two years. Only two were perpetual starters and only one of the 9 is still on the team.

FWIW. Beadles and Walton pretty much played every down from the day they were drafted until Walton was hurt.

Decker and DT pretty much played every down when they were healthy.

Ayers has been playing IIRC three different positions in those broncos days. Standup OLB in a 3-4.

I do not hold it against any of Mc Ds pick for getting cut or not resigned when their contract was up, for the sole reason they did not fit into the scheme as well as the players John and John have brought in. Had ayers not been a top pick perhaps his contract numbers would not have been what they were, same goes for Moreno, hard to give them what they or their agents perceived them to be.

Certainly no one can bitch about the play of Decker and the money he deserved.

luckyseven
04-06-2014, 02:30 AM
There's no way of knowing for sure that Tebow be starting QB, McDaniels is the only one who has refused to put him in the starting lineup. Even when it could have saved his job he wouldn't start him.

He knew that he was not ready to play and it would hurt his development. He stated that he was a 3-4 year project when he drafted him.
Pretty sure anyone that is honest with themselves knows that John thought he would fail when he succumbed to public pressure and started him. His or better yet the team rallying around him was a surprise to everyone with the successes they had.

TXBRONC
04-06-2014, 07:28 AM
Actually there are several articles saying it was Doogie, I've read them, had I known you'd be a bitch about it I'd of posted them too. Keep looking, they're out there.

Even if it wasn't McDanilel actually uttered the words it still would have been done with his approval.

Jaded
04-06-2014, 11:24 AM
He knew that he was not ready to play and it would hurt his development. He stated that he was a 3-4 year project when he drafted him.
Pretty sure anyone that is honest with themselves knows that John thought he would fail when he succumbed to public pressure and started him. His or better yet the team rallying around him was a surprise to everyone with the successes they had.

He did fail, he was by far the worst passer the league had seen in decades. And the notion that the team rallied behind him has always been a total ******* joke, 2nd hand knowledge here so take it fwiw; his team pushed him, not the other way around.

It wasn't the "we know you can do it buddy, we're behind you 100%" fairy tale bullshit, it was "I don't care who you think you are, we're working our ass off out there, you better get some ******* 1st downs".

Again, take it fwiw, if you wanna believe the bullshit fairly tale go right ahead. From what I've heard 2011 wasn't the Disney movie for the players that it was for Tebow and his fans.

Jaded
04-06-2014, 11:33 AM
Even if it was McDanilel actually uttered the words it still would have been done at it his behest.

You think McDaniels let's someone else handle trades? You're clueless if you do, in fact, I bet every single other human being in that warroom thinks it was incredibly stupid to turn down a free 3rd round pick. I bet Ben McDaniels was all like "Bro! Wtf?"

luckyseven
04-06-2014, 02:07 PM
He did fail, he was by far the worst passer the league had seen in decades. And the notion that the team rallied behind him has always been a total ******* joke, 2nd hand knowledge here so take it fwiw; his team pushed him, not the other way around.

It wasn't the "we know you can do it buddy, we're behind you 100%" fairy tale bullshit, it was "I don't care who you think you are, we're working our ass off out there, you better get some ******* 1st downs".

Again, take it fwiw, if you wanna believe the bullshit fairly tale go right ahead. From what I've heard 2011 wasn't the Disney movie for the players that it was for Tebow and his fans.
Some real hate there, sorry you feel that way.

Fwiw I said team rallying around him to win those early games.

Never said he rallied them, I said the team rallied.

As for him being the worst QB in decades. I seem to remember several perfect passes in many of those games for big gains or scores.

He simply was not ready to read defenses or play when he was out into the game.
He failed in other schemes also, so he may never might have been ready.
But having 4-5 different QB coaches and OCs in his time playing certainly did not help him improve.

Fortunately for you his time in the NFL is done.

I'd have rather had a good clean kid than a rapist as a QB. But that is just me.

Pudge
04-06-2014, 03:46 PM
I'd have rather had a good clean kid than a rapist as a QB. But that is just me.

I'd rather have Peyton Manning but that's just me

Jaded
04-06-2014, 03:54 PM
Some real hate there, sorry you feel that way.

Fwiw I said team rallying around him to win those early games.

Never said he rallied them, I said the team rallied.

As for him being the worst QB in decades. I seem to remember several perfect passes in many of those games for big gains or scores.

He simply was not ready to read defenses or play when he was out into the game.
He failed in other schemes also, so he may never might have been ready.
But having 4-5 different QB coaches and OCs in his time playing certainly did not help him improve.

Fortunately for you his time in the NFL is done.

I'd have rather had a good clean kid than a rapist as a QB. But that is just me.

I don't hate anybody, I just hated watching him attempt to play QB.

What rapist are you referring to Two-shoes?

TXBRONC
04-06-2014, 04:48 PM
You think McDaniels let's someone else handle trades? You're clueless if you do, in fact, I bet every single other human being in that warroom thinks it was incredibly stupid to turn down a free 3rd round pick. I bet Ben McDaniels was all like "Bro! Wtf?"

No I meant to say even if McDaniels didn't actually take the call personally it was still done with his knowledge and approval. That said he was to much a control freak for anyone but him to take that call.

It's not inconceivable that everyone else in the warroom thought it was stupid. What's worse is I bet McDaniels could have gotten more than just a third out of it.

TXBRONC
04-06-2014, 04:53 PM
I don't hate anybody, I just hated watching him attempt to play QB.

What rapist are you referring to Two-shoes?

He's got to be referring to Roethlisberger

Cugel
04-06-2014, 06:12 PM
There is nothing in there that says it was McDaniels they talked to. It simply says they spoke to someone in the Broncos war room.

NEWSFLASH: McMoron was in charge of the Broncos war room! Who exactly do you think was making the draft decisions? Thunder the horse? :laugh:


McMoron: "Now Thunder. Click your hoof once if you think trading a 1st rounder to get Darcel McBath is a good idea!"

Thunder: [Click] [Click!]

McMoron: Right. Trade a 1st rounder for a 2nd it is!

Thunder: [Whinny] "Noooooo!"

Have you forgotten the time when McDaniels publicly stated that he had taken total charge of the Broncos drafting "because somebody had to?"

But, keep bending over to try and find justifications to defend the indefensible. But, watch out. If you put your head any further up your rear end you're going to start seeing daylight.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-06-2014, 06:39 PM
FWIW. Beadles and Walton pretty much played every down from the day they were drafted until Walton was hurt.

Decker and DT pretty much played every down when they were healthy.

Ayers has been playing IIRC three different positions in those broncos days. Standup OLB in a 3-4.

I do not hold it against any of Mc Ds pick for getting cut or not resigned when their contract was up, for the sole reason they did not fit into the scheme as well as the players John and John have brought in. Had ayers not been a top pick perhaps his contract numbers would not have been what they were, same goes for Moreno, hard to give them what they or their agents perceived them to be.

Certainly no one can bitch about the play of Decker and the money he deserved.

I was referring solely to 1st and 2nd round picks, of which he mostly squandered.

Bosco
04-06-2014, 07:31 PM
NEWSFLASH: McMoron was in charge of the Broncos war room! Who exactly do you think was making the draft decisions? Thunder the horse? :laugh:


Have you forgotten the time when McDaniels publicly stated that he had taken total charge of the Broncos drafting "because somebody had to?"

But, keep bending over to try and find justifications to defend the indefensible. But, watch out. If you put your head any further up your rear end you're going to start seeing daylight.

You stated more than once now that it was McDaniels who was "directly spoken to". Your own sources do not support those claims. You are making an assumption. In the legal world (where we actually have to prove what we say...usually) this is called assuming facts not in evidence. Xanders and Ellis were also very active in the draft process.

McDaniels quote about taking more control of the drafting process was post 2010...IIRC.

Cugel
04-06-2014, 09:13 PM
You stated more than once now that it was McDaniels who was "directly spoken to". Your own sources do not support those claims. You are making an assumption. In the legal world (where we actually have to prove what we say...usually) this is called assuming facts not in evidence. Xanders and Ellis were also very active in the draft process.

McDaniels quote about taking more control of the drafting process was post 2010...IIRC.

Although I actually am a lawyer I'm not going to waste time splitting hairs with you. This ain't a courtroom twerp. I suppose you are one of those attorneys who think they are scoring points with the jury by aimless pedantry and raking up "contradictions" to score meaningless talking points. I always love it when opposing counsel gets that "smug" look on his face as if he's scored a major coup, when the jury is just sitting there "what was the point of all that?"

The comment came from McMoron's camp in response to criticism of his general stupidity, especially with respect to the draft after he was fired. It was designed to point out that someone had to take control over the draft because Xanders wasn't. McMoron's coup didn't happen in 2010. It happened immediately after McMoron took over. And that too was commented on at the time in case you forget.

And certainly all trade negotiations had to be approved by McMoron. He was effectively GM and coach. And no, that's NOT "assuming facts not in evidence." You're just being deliberately obtuse.

It doesn't matter a tinker's curse who the Redskins GM was on the phone with. He made the call. The Broncos went off line to consider it. Then "they" called him back and said "you don't have to make the trade. You're going to get your guy."

There's no way around the conclusion that McMoron did not want a trade. And they threw away the draft pick. Unless you're going to make the utterly imbecilic argument that Xanders vetoed the trade without McMoron's approval or knowledge. Now THAT would be "assuming facts not in evidence." In spades.

Nice try to exonerate the dessicated remains of McMoron's lost reputation. You should be his agent. You've got your head far enough up his ass already.

Bosco
04-06-2014, 11:04 PM
Although I actually am a lawyer I'm well aware. I remember a couple years ago reading a post where you were defending our profession against the prevailing attitudes against it. It's also why I was so surprised by the tone you had taken that is pretty contradictory toward the parameters of our profession.


The comment came from McMoron's camp in response to criticism of his general stupidity, especially with respect to the draft after he was fired. It was designed to point out that someone had to take control over the draft because Xanders wasn't. McMoron's coup didn't happen in 2010. It happened immediately after McMoron took over. And that too was commented on at the time in case you forget. I seem to remember that comment coming out in an article after the 2010 draft. Perhaps my memory has failed me though.


And certainly all trade negotiations had to be approved by McMoron. He was effectively GM and coach. And no, that's NOT "assuming facts not in evidence." You're just being deliberately obtuse. That's actually incorrect. After Shanahan's firing, it was well established that Bowlen wanted a more established hierarchy with an active GM and the head coach having clear roles and lines of separation. Josh had a lot of power (more than he should have had as a first time coach) but certainly had oversight in Xanders, Ellis and even Bowlen himself.

This is further supported by the 2009 reporting that when Tampa Bay approached McDaniels about a three way trade involving Cutler for Cassel, McDaniels went to Ellis and then Bowlen with the offer before turning it down.


It doesn't matter a tinker's curse who the Redskins GM was on the phone with. He made the call. The Broncos went off line to consider it. Then "they" called him back and said "you don't have to make the trade. You're going to get your guy."

There's no way around the conclusion that McMoron did not want a trade. And they threw away the draft pick. Unless you're going to make the utterly imbecilic argument that Xanders vetoed the trade without McMoron's approval or knowledge. Now THAT would be "assuming facts not in evidence." In spades.

I'm surprised an actual lawyer would take that position. Personally, I'd be asking the following first.

- Is the person making the claim credible?
- Could there be ulterior motives for making the claim?
- Is the claim is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
- If it's true, why was the offer turned down?
- What was the chain of progression of the offer?

While the first two questions are debatable, I think any objective person would reasonably presume that if the claim is true, there must have been an underlying reason for declining the offer. NFL front offices--even ones as inept as you think the 2009 Broncos were--simply don't turn down free day 1 draft picks.


Nice try to exonerate the dessicated remains of McMoron's lost reputation. You should be his agent. You've got your head far enough up his ass already. I don't think there is any need to do that. The ink wasn't even dry on his termination papers when other teams were making him offers to be their OC, and he's since gone back and coordinated elite offenses with the Patriots (sodomizing us twice in the process) with a Super Bowl appearance. He's also back to having teams beating down his door with head coach offers, so the powers that be in the NFL still happen to think he is pretty good at what he does. There was also that line from Schefter's interview on ESPN during the Cleveland fiasco that the overwhelming feeling around the league is that the Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos.

I think he's going to be just fine.

luckyseven
04-07-2014, 01:51 AM
I'd rather have Peyton Manning but that's just me
Seems to me he is a good clean kid.

luckyseven
04-07-2014, 01:55 AM
NEWSFLASH: McMoron was in charge of the Broncos war room! Who exactly do you think was making the draft decisions? Thunder the horse? :laugh:


Have you forgotten the time when McDaniels publicly stated that he had taken total charge of the Broncos drafting "because somebody had to?"

But, keep bending over to try and find justifications to defend the indefensible. But, watch out. If you put your head any further up your rear end you're going to start seeing daylight.

Who else could do the drafting Joe and Pat left him with a scouting staff that was preparing for Shanahans needs and a CO-GM.

He had a limited time frame to go over what had been scouted to see if it met the needs of his new schemes.

Someone had to take charge.

Seems to me his choices in the next draft were better thought out. Save Perhaps Tebow.

luckyseven
04-07-2014, 01:59 AM
I was referring solely to 1st and 2nd round picks, of which he mostly squandered.

We had good production from all of the firsts except Tebows one year when he led the team to the playoffs and a win over PIT IIRC.

Could it have been better?

Sure but if you go back in our history not many of our #1 picks have been wiz bangs.

TXBRONC
04-07-2014, 06:39 AM
Who else could do the drafting Joe and Pat left him with a scouting staff that was preparing for Shanahans needs and a CO-GM.

He had a limited time frame to go over what had been scouted to see if it met the needs of his new schemes.

Someone had to take charge.

Seems to me his choices in the next draft were better thought out. Save Perhaps Tebow.

The excuse that McDaniels didn't have time to prepare for the draft is lame. He had plenty of time to prepare.

Jaded
04-07-2014, 10:00 PM
I'll take Roethlisberger over Tebow any day, but you don't absolutely have to choose between the two.

You can actually choose. . .neither.

What does R-Berger have to do with the price of tea in China?

Jaded
04-07-2014, 10:04 PM
The excuse that McDaniels didn't have time to prepare for the draft is lame. He had plenty of time prepare.

You don't need to do a ton of film to know that Elphonso Smith is worthy of a 1st round pick, or that a TE with 12 career catches isn't worth two 3's. Besides, maybe he'd have more time to prepare if he wasn't chasing off all the talent and replacing them with former Patriots.

Jaded
04-07-2014, 10:10 PM
Tebow fans. :banghead:

Jsteve01
04-07-2014, 11:49 PM
I'm well aware. I remember a couple years ago reading a post where you were defending our profession against the prevailing attitudes against it. It's also why I was so surprised by the tone you had taken that is pretty contradictory toward the parameters of our profession.

I seem to remember that comment coming out in an article after the 2010 draft. Perhaps my memory has failed me though.

That's actually incorrect. After Shanahan's firing, it was well established that Bowlen wanted a more established hierarchy with an active GM and the head coach having clear roles and lines of separation. Josh had a lot of power (more than he should have had as a first time coach) but certainly had oversight in Xanders, Ellis and even Bowlen himself.

This is further supported by the 2009 reporting that when Tampa Bay approached McDaniels about a three way trade involving Cutler for Cassel, McDaniels went to Ellis and then Bowlen with the offer before turning it down.



I'm surprised an actual lawyer would take that position. Personally, I'd be asking the following first.

- Is the person making the claim credible?
- Could there be ulterior motives for making the claim?
- Is the claim is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
- If it's true, why was the offer turned down?
- What was the chain of progression of the offer?

While the first two questions are debatable, I think any objective person would reasonably presume that if the claim is true, there must have been an underlying reason for declining the offer. NFL front offices--even ones as inept as you think the 2009 Broncos were--simply don't turn down free day 1 draft picks.

I don't think there is any need to do that. The ink wasn't even dry on his termination papers when other teams were making him offers to be their OC, and he's since gone back and coordinated elite offenses with the Patriots (sodomizing us twice in the process) with a Super Bowl appearance. He's also back to having teams beating down his door with head coach offers, so the powers that be in the NFL still happen to think he is pretty good at what he does. There was also that line from Schefter's interview on ESPN during the Cleveland fiasco that the overwhelming feeling around the league is that the Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos.

I think he's going to be just fine.

You had me until the part about the Broncos failing McD more than he failed us. how exactly did that work? Because we didn't do what any parent should do with a petulant child and discipline them? Because we gave him the keys to the kingdom? Not sure how that represents us failing a guy that as a head coach should have been able to manage himself and his taff.

Cugel
04-11-2014, 09:22 PM
The excuse that McDaniels didn't have time to prepare for the draft is lame. He had plenty of time to prepare.

He immediately got rid of the Goodmans who actually had Player Personnel and draft knowledge. He got rid of them because he wanted to stage his little coup. True, Xanders was a duffer, but that hardly mattered, when the real draft talent were the Goodmans and McMoron ran them out of town.

Cugel
04-11-2014, 09:27 PM
That's actually incorrect. After Shanahan's firing, it was well established that Bowlen wanted a more established hierarchy with an active GM and the head coach having clear roles and lines of separation. Josh had a lot of power (more than he should have had as a first time coach) but certainly had oversight in Xanders, Ellis and even Bowlen himself.

This is further supported by the 2009 reporting that when Tampa Bay approached McDaniels about a three way trade involving Cutler for Cassel, McDaniels went to Ellis and then Bowlen with the offer before turning it down.

I don't have the interest to bother to endlessly debate nonsense with you, but this part is just flat wrong. Perhaps you forget:

1. Pat Bowlen DID say that after the Shanahan firing the next coach would not have the overall authority that Shanny did.

2. All the fans thought that would mean that the GM would handle player personnel and McMoron would stick to being a coach. He'd have input into the draft, but someone else would have the real authority and make the decisions, just as most teams do and just like Elway does now.

3. McMoron immediately staged his little coup, getting rid of the Goodmans and stuffing Xanders into a coal chute somewhere getting him out of the way.

4. McMoron made all the decisions and made it public that he made all the decisions. For instance, he said that he thought he could coach Tebow into a starting QB and that's why he drafted him.

HE made that decision like all the others and nobody else in the organization had the power to say "no coach, trading a 1st round pick to move up into the 2nd round and draft Darcel McBath is not a good idea."


There was also that line from Schefter's interview on ESPN during the Cleveland fiasco that the overwhelming feeling around the league is that the Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos.

I didn't see that interview but it's utterly absurd. Even insulting. One word response: Spy-Gate.

The Broncos did nothing to McMoron but hire him when he wasn't remotely ready to run a team, let him push out the Goodmans and become his own GM when he had no history of handling player pro personnel, and then let him run wild, making insane and incredibly damaging decisions that left the team a broken wreck with a 4-12 record, and acting in such an unethical way that Bowlen was forced to fire him even before his 2nd season had ended.

As for McDaniels being head coach material, you'll notice nobody else has hired him! (I thought Cleveland was desperate enough to do it, but it didn't happen because he wasn't desperate enough to sail on that Titanic).

I think some idiot owner will probably buy that stupid theory that "he's learned" or something and then he'll get another job and fail spectacularly once again. And that will be that.

Notice how many Belichick clones have gotten head coaching jobs in the NFL and how none of them have yet succeeded.

Romeo Crennel, Cleveland Browns (2005–2008), Kansas City Chiefs (2011–2012)
Al Groh, New York Jets (2000)
Josh McDaniels, Denver Broncos (2009–2010)
Eric Mangini, New York Jets (2006–2008), Cleveland Browns (2009–2010)
Nick Saban, Miami Dolphins (2005–2006)
Jim Schwartz, Detroit Lions (2009–2013)
Bill O'Brien, Houston Texans (2014-present)

Jaded
04-11-2014, 09:35 PM
The Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos? That is weapons grade stupid right there, Bosco is giving Gatorfag a run for the idiot money.

TXBRONC
04-11-2014, 10:40 PM
The Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos? Thats weapons grade stupid right there, Bosco is giving Gatorfag a run for the idiot money.

I like that weapons grade stupid. :lol:

It is pretty stupid but when a guy is that stuck on a player or like Bosco is on McDaniels common sense and reality take a back seat to hero worship.

MOtorboat
04-12-2014, 01:02 AM
He immediately got rid of the Goodmans who actually had Player Personnel and draft knowledge. He got rid of them because he wanted to stage his little coup. True, Xanders was a duffer, but that hardly mattered, when the real draft talent were the Goodmans and McMoron ran them out of town.

I have to laugh when someone says the Goodmans were "draft talent" when they've barely worked since and they have Jarvis Moss on their resume.

dogfish
04-12-2014, 01:25 AM
The Broncos failed McDaniels more than McDaniels failed the Broncos? That is weapons grade stupid right there

:spit: :lol::lol:

Traveler
04-12-2014, 12:23 PM
I don't have the interest to bother to endlessly debate nonsense with you, but this part is just flat wrong. Perhaps you forget:

1. Pat Bowlen DID say that after the Shanahan firing the next coach would not have the overall authority that Shanny did.

2. All the fans thought that would mean that the GM would handle player personnel and McMoron would stick to being a coach. He'd have input into the draft, but someone else would have the real authority and make the decisions, just as most teams do and just like Elway does now.

3. McMoron immediately staged his little coup, getting rid of the Goodmans and stuffing Xanders into a coal chute somewhere getting him out of the way.

4. McMoron made all the decisions and made it public that he made all the decisions. For instance, he said that he thought he could coach Tebow into a starting QB and that's why he drafted him.

HE made that decision like all the others and nobody else in the organization had the power to say "no coach, trading a 1st round pick to move up into the 2nd round and draft (Alphonso Smith) Darcel McBath is not a good idea."



I didn't see that interview but it's utterly absurd. Even insulting. One word response: Spy-Gate.

The Broncos did nothing to McMoron but hire him when he wasn't remotely ready to run a team, let him push out the Goodmans and become his own GM when he had no history of handling player pro personnel, and then let him run wild, making insane and incredibly damaging decisions that left the team a broken wreck with a 4-12 record, and acting in such an unethical way that Bowlen was forced to fire him even before his 2nd season had ended.

As for McDaniels being head coach material, you'll notice nobody else has hired him! (I thought Cleveland was desperate enough to do it, but it didn't happen because he wasn't desperate enough to sail on that Titanic).

I think some idiot owner will probably buy that stupid theory that "he's learned" or something and then he'll get another job and fail spectacularly once again. And that will be that.

Notice how many Belichick clones have gotten head coaching jobs in the NFL and how none of them have yet succeeded.

Romeo Crennel, Cleveland Browns (2005–2008), Kansas City Chiefs (2011–2012)
Al Groh, New York Jets (2000)
Josh McDaniels, Denver Broncos (2009–2010)
Eric Mangini, New York Jets (2006–2008), Cleveland Browns (2009–2010)
Nick Saban, Miami Dolphins (2005–2006)
Jim Schwartz, Detroit Lions (2009–2013)
Bill O'Brien, Houston Texans (2014-present)

Fixed it for you.