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WARHORSE
09-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Orton shouted to Stokes in the lockeroom: "Did Peyton Manning ever throw you a pass like that?" Everyone laughed.

I believe that was a pretty good Cincy defense that we just beat. I think theyre better than last year for sure. They were filling the gaps perfectly all game pretty much. But Im also sure they werent afraid of Orton beating them up top.

I think Orton had some nerves, and who wouldnt being in the situation hes in following a kid that just threw for 4500 yards.

I hope he settles down..............but was I the only one who thought of that preseason game I went to against Arizona? During the game, I kept thinking.........Brandstater looked a lot more poised and delivered the ball well................he should be playing.


Anyone else have those thoughts?

http://broncosfreaks.com/forums/images/smilies/alcoholic.gif


I like Kyle.

But I hated watching him play.

Everytime he dropped back I held my breath.

I dont like watching Broncos football like that. :drinking:

Guess I better get used to it huh?

broncofaninfla
09-14-2009, 12:25 PM
I agree, I hold my breath every time he drops back as well. The only reason he didn't have any interceptions is the bengals failed to make the plays. They were there for the taking. As long as he is under center, I'll pull for him but I'm not convinced he is our best option at QB. Not just by comparing him to who is on our roster but who is still available in free agency. He can't throw an out route to save his life, any pass over 15 yards floats and he tellegraphs his receivers. Being McD has moved away from the zone blocking scheme on offense, our running game will fail. So it's on Orton's shoulders to move the ball and he simply isn't skilled enough to assume that responsibility. Before the flamers say it's only one game, my assesment on Orton goes back to his time as a Bear as well. The kid is tough, he has heart and is liked and respected by his peer but he is NOT the answer at QB for us. Period.

OldschoolFreak
09-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Yeah, people always talk about the arm strength issue but my biggest concern is the complete lack of mobility. Though not the 4 picks and cocky willingness to jam the ball into coverage, I do really miss Jay's pocket poise and ability to improvise.

It seems to me that's one thing that will keep Orton from doing anything special. You've got to be able to improvise, to escape the pocket and extend the play, do anything but just fold at the mere sight of pressure...especially on third down where field position can lock up the game!

Here's to hoping he develops some confidence, creativity, or scrambling ability.

Bill Devaroe
09-14-2009, 12:31 PM
I guys I am out in cace you wondord..

I think orton is pretty crappy QB. This ofesnse hurts to watch plane and simple. Marshall also looks terrible.

oh PS knowshon sucks to.

Traveler
09-14-2009, 12:32 PM
Brandstater does seem to have pretty nice pocket awareness and throws a nice ball. But he's just not ready. I've said before that this team is going to have it's fair share of ups and downs. Moreso down.

Let the young QB learn a little more. It'll also give everyone plenty of time to cement their views of Orton (if they haven't already) as a long term option at QB for us.

silkamilkamonico
09-14-2009, 12:33 PM
Kyle needs to play a lot better.

At the same time, the WR's need to catch the damn ball. Especially considering this is a ball control offense predicated off short passing plays.

4 drops on 3rd down that would have resulted in a first down. That's unexcusable.

broncophan
09-14-2009, 12:45 PM
Sure Orton will have to play better....

but maybe.....for the first time in a long....long time.......the new coaching staff is trying to put a TEAM together where they will not have to rely on a qb to have an 250-300 yard game and throw for 3 td's every week for the broncos to have a chance to win.

Time will tell.......I guess.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2009, 12:52 PM
well, I vowed before the game started to NOT judge him, the team, or the coach based on one game. I think thats only fair for all players. One game does not a season make....whether that particular game was spectacular or awful.

Orton didn't play especially well....but at the same time, he didn't do anything other than what I was expecting. Silk is right.... receivers need to catch the ball. I think we said the same thing last year as well about them.

Crush05
09-14-2009, 01:03 PM
I will judge Orton. He is a back up qb at best! As for Simms I will go as far as saying the same. Now Branstater he showed poise against Arizona. He had a good feel for the pocket and was not afraid to air out the ball if needed. IMO he is our best option to win. As far as the rest of the game IMO the defense was great until the drive the Bengals scored on while we were in the prevent. The running game needs some work and the receivers need to pay attention to the ball as it comes into thier hands and we would have less dropped passes. By the way I am glad to be back I took time away as I was and still am upset of the Broncos changes. But never the less I am a Broncos fan.

TXBRONC
09-14-2009, 01:08 PM
well, I vowed before the game started to NOT judge him, the team, or the coach based on one game. I think thats only fair for all players. One game does not a season make....whether that particular game was spectacular or awful.

Orton didn't play especially well....but at the same time, he didn't do anything other than what I was expecting. Silk is right.... receivers need to catch the ball. I think we said the same thing last year as well about them.

I can't disagree with either. The receivers have to do a better job of hanging onto the ball.

broncophan
09-14-2009, 01:09 PM
I will judge Orton. He is a back up qb at best! As for Simms I will go as far as saying the same. Now Branstater he showed poise against Arizona. He had a good feel for the pocket and was not afraid to air out the ball if needed. IMO he is our best option to win. As far as the rest of the game IMO the defense was great until the drive the Bengals scored on while we were in the prevent. The running game needs some work and the receivers need to pay attention to the ball as it comes into thier hands and we would have less dropped passes. By the way I am glad to be back I took time away as I was and still am upset of the Broncos changes. But never the less I am a Broncos fan.

Welcome back.......while many of us are not happy with some changes that were made........it is nice to see the season get started.....and we can move on......in the right direction ....I hope.

Look at it this way.....we could be Bengal fans......

I went to the game yesterday........and talking to some of their fans......losing a game like yesterday......they almost expected it...lol
"That kind of play could only happen to the bengals".....they said....lol

topscribe
09-14-2009, 01:10 PM
I will judge Orton. He is a back up qb at best! As for Simms I will go as far as saying the same. Now Branstater he showed poise against Arizona. He had a good feel for the pocket and was not afraid to air out the ball if needed. IMO he is our best option to win. As far as the rest of the game IMO the defense was great until the drive the Bengals scored on while we were in the prevent. The running game needs some work and the receivers need to pay attention to the ball as it comes into thier hands and we would have less dropped passes. By the way I am glad to be back I took time away as I was and still am upset of the Broncos changes. But never the less I am a Broncos fan.

I dearly love what I see in Brandy!! He may not be ready right now, but we
need to have our eyes on him, IMO.

Wow, it's good to see you, buddy!! :beer:

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broncofaninfla
09-14-2009, 01:11 PM
I agree that the receivers need to get better at catching the ball BUT I'll also add it was a good thing the Bengal DB's weren't on thier game either or Orton throws 3-4 picks Sunday.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Orton shouted to Stokes in the lockeroom: "Did Peyton Manning ever throw you a pass like that?" Everyone laughed.

I believe that was a pretty good Cincy defense that we just beat. I think theyre better than last year for sure. They were filling the gaps perfectly all game pretty much. But Im also sure they werent afraid of Orton beating them up top.

I think Orton had some nerves, and who wouldnt being in the situation hes in following a kid that just threw for 4500 yards.

I hope he settles down..............but was I the only one who thought of that preseason game I went to against Arizona? During the game, I kept thinking.........Brandstater looked a lot more poised and delivered the ball well................he should be playing.


Anyone else have those thoughts?

http://broncosfreaks.com/forums/images/smilies/alcoholic.gif


I like Kyle.

But I hated watching him play.

Everytime he dropped back I held my breath.

I dont like watching Broncos football like that. :drinking:

Guess I better get used to it huh?

Nah, I don't think so. Orton had 12 INTs all last year. He may well have
been nervous this first game, and it's going to take a while to get
completely acclimated to McDaniels' system. Let's not forget that he also
was playing with 15 stitches in his finger.

Those are all reasons to hope it gets better for him, so I'm with you on
that. Orton had some bad passes, made some bad decisions. It was like he
was still thinking out there somewhat. I didn't like everything I saw. I know
McDaniels didn't.

All we can do is hope for improvement . . . and that Kuper returns . . . and,
as has been previously mentioned here, that receivers hang onto the
damned ball. :mad:

And that next time he sees Royal and/or Stokes when they are wide open . . .

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Ravage!!!
09-14-2009, 01:23 PM
I will judge Orton. He is a back up qb at best! As for Simms I will go as far as saying the same.

well, I've already stated that many times over....... :beer:

topscribe
09-14-2009, 01:26 PM
I agree that the receivers need to get better at catching the ball BUT I'll also add it was a good thing the Bengal DB's weren't on thier game either or Orton throws 3-4 picks Sunday.

The Bengals DBs are never on their game.

It was a good team for Orton's first game . . .

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T.K.O.
09-14-2009, 01:54 PM
well,all in all i would say orton managed the game fairly well,i still see the same lack of punch in our running game.if you watch higjhlights of other games it makes our running game look anemic....even sloooooow.
i realize knoshon is coming off a late start in camp and injury...but he sure didnt look like any #12 pick yesterday and i expect some power soon or i say we call shaun alexander.;)...he at least would run with more heart !
anyway as for orton he will improve as he gets his timing down with the recievers (marshall especially) and his finger heals.
also he is coming from one of the most basic offenses to one of the most complex,no qb can master a system in a couple months so i think we should see a much smoother running "machine" by mid season....and the Lord knows we're gonna need it !:salute:

CrazyHorse
09-14-2009, 01:56 PM
I still want a QB that can win when the game is on their shoulders without blind luck.
We have a QB right now that plays it safe and "doesn't lose games" which is okay if our defense plays like it did every game. I doubt we repeat that defensive performance every week so it will be tough when we have to put a lot of points on the board.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 02:03 PM
well,all in all i would say orton managed the game fairly well,i still see the same lack of punch in our running game.if you watch higjhlights of other games it makes our running game look anemic....even sloooooow.
i realize knoshon is coming off a late start in camp and injury...but he sure didnt look like any #12 pick yesterday and i expect some power soon or i say we call shaun alexander.;)...he at least would run with more heart !
anyway as for orton he will improve as he gets his timing down with the recievers (marshall especially) and his finger heals.
also he is coming from one of the most basic offenses to one of the most complex,no qb can master a system in a couple months so i think we should see a much smoother running "machine" by mid season....and the Lord knows we're gonna need it !:salute:

I believe we still have some players who are thinking out there, rather than
reacting, especially on offense. Orton and Knowshon would be in that mix . . .

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Lonestar
09-14-2009, 02:04 PM
About what I expected.

Not sure how someone could expect much more from an almost totally new offense that had its starters on the field for the first time.

First time let me repeat that. Marshall clearly was not ready to play and had ZERO timing with KO. Oline just may not be what everyone thought it is.

As for KO I suspect he would have been pressing less if his recievers would have caught those DROPPED passes. Things would not have been quite so tense.

Give them all time to work together and we should see everyone on the same page.

Chris90210
09-14-2009, 02:05 PM
Offense in general played poorly. I was surprised by our D who did a pretty good job out there and Ocho stinko spoke too soon

CoachChaz
09-14-2009, 02:07 PM
The thing we have to remember about the O-line is it's damn near ridiculous to expect a total repeat of the season they had last year.

CraigHwk
09-14-2009, 02:08 PM
I am beginning to love Orton and his attitude. The guy just oozes respect for his team and the game. I just hope his on field performance starts to match his off-fields.

Day1BroncoFan
09-14-2009, 02:09 PM
I thought Orton's timeing was a little off. I also thought he could have avoided some sacks better but at least he didn't toss it to the Bengas defense.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 02:10 PM
About what I expected.

Not sure how someone could expect much more from an almost totally new offense that had its starters on the field for the first time.

First time let me repeat that. Marshall clearly was not ready to play and had ZERO timing with KO. Oline just may not be what everyone thought it is.

As for KO I suspect he would have been pressing less if his recievers would have caught those DROPPED passes. Things would not have been quite so tense.

Give them all time to work together and we should see everyone on the same page.

I believe the O-line is fine, regarding Clady, Harris, Wiegmann, and Kuper.
I agree with you that Hamiton's time may be past, and that he may be too
light to cope with McDaniels' power game

I do think ditching much of the the zone blocking is a mistake until they get
the personnel for what McDaniels wants to do . . . prinicpally, a bigger LG.

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topscribe
09-14-2009, 02:12 PM
I am beginning to love Orton and his attitude. The guy just oozes respect for his team and the game. I just hope his on field performance starts to match his off-fields.

Welcome to the board! :welcome:

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shank
09-14-2009, 02:16 PM
I thought Orton's timeing was a little off. I also thought he could have avoided some sacks better but at least he didn't toss it to the Bengas defense.

that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the game. not impressed, but not disappointed. was yelling when he took a couple of those sacks (mainly because i feel bad for the O-line when they give up undeserved sacks).

one of my favorite things about jay was his knack for not getting sacked. there was a lot of times when he could have taken a sack, but managed to get the ball out or scramble just barely past the LOS to keep his big guys up front from having that shitty stat on their sheet.

oh well. i expect everyone to improve week to week as they get more comfortable and learn each other's tendencies. i'm not worried about the offense and i'm very excited about the D. good place to be at this time of the year, following that offseason.

CoachChaz
09-14-2009, 02:19 PM
that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the game. not impressed, but not disappointed. was yelling when he took a couple of those sacks (mainly because i feel bad for the O-line when they give up undeserved sacks).

one of my favorite things about jay was his knack for not getting sacked. there was a lot of times when he could have taken a sack, but managed to get the ball out or scramble just barely past the LOS to keep his big guys up front from having that shitty stat on their sheet.

oh well. i expect everyone to improve week to week as they get more comfortable and learn each other's tendencies. i'm not worried about the offense and i'm very excited about the D. good place to be at this time of the year, following that offseason.

I agree. He did this 4 times last night that I saw.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 02:19 PM
that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the game. not impressed, but not disappointed. was yelling when he took a couple of those sacks (mainly because i feel bad for the O-line when they give up undeserved sacks).

one of my favorite things about jay was his knack for not getting sacked. there was a lot of times when he could have taken a sack, but managed to get the ball out or scramble just barely past the LOS to keep his big guys up front from having that shitty stat on their sheet.

oh well. i expect everyone to improve week to week as they get more comfortable and learn each other's tendencies. i'm not worried about the offense and i'm very excited about the D. good place to be at this time of the year, following that offseason.

That time Orton juked Urlacher, booted out to the sideline, and completed
the pass downfield: I hope, as he gains more feel back there, that we see
more of that. That was one cool play . . .

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OldschoolFreak
09-14-2009, 02:29 PM
We have a QB right now that plays it safe and "doesn't lose games" which is okay if our defense plays like it did every game.

Therein lies the problem. Our game manager essentially did "lose" the game. You have got to capitalize on any opportunity you have when simply managing the game and taking a sack to get us out of field goal position equates to failure in that situation.

Our inability to light it up means 6 point leads late in the 4th. You have got to manage the game appropriately there and that means not taking a sack. Period.

Other than that, the game was lackluster offensively but that I'm less worried about as we should hopefully improve with time and gelling.

broncofaninfla
09-14-2009, 02:29 PM
The thing we have to remember about the O-line is it's damn near ridiculous to expect a total repeat of the season they had last year.

Especially when you add a complete scheme change into the equation. These guys were built around a zone blocking scheme and we have all but abanded that scheme.

Den21vsBal19
09-14-2009, 02:32 PM
A tantalising glimpse of what may be ;)

I was never going to make a judgement on Orton prior to the bye, I think last night showed a lack of timing as a result of his injury.................personally I don't think he'd have started if Simms hadn't also missed time due to his ankle injury.

There's just been too high a turnover of staff and players to expect things to gel immediately, let's give the guys that rely on timing a chance to work themselves into some sort of rythym.

Pleasantly suprised with the D though :2thumbs:

Day1BroncoFan
09-14-2009, 02:36 PM
We should have a much better idea by game 4 or so. :D

rationalfan
09-14-2009, 02:41 PM
haters make it clear it's easy to rip orton for what he doesn't have in physical traits.

lovers make it clear it's easy to give orton props for his (supposed) brain power.

but what i saw yesterday was a quarterback with an arm that isn't a problem (the glove was a problem. when he had a good grip and as he became used to the glove, his pass velocity wasn't as bad as people would like you to believe). I saw a quarterback who wasn't comfortable in his offense.

orton seemed to be overthinking his reads. he seemed to be waiting for things to happen (could have been receiver problems with routes). and when he did make quick decisions they weren't the right ones.

hopefully more time in this offense will improve his playing. but i worry that he doesn't have the moxie some people claimed he does.

TXBRONC
09-14-2009, 02:41 PM
A tantalising glimpse of what may be ;)

I was never going to make a judgement on Orton prior to the bye, I think last night showed a lack of timing as a result of his injury.................personally I don't think he'd have started if Simms hadn't also missed time due to his ankle injury.

There's just been too high a turnover of staff and players to expect things to gel immediately, let's give the guys that rely on timing a chance to work themselves into some sort of rythym.

Pleasantly suprised with the D though :2thumbs:

How can his injuried finger be a problem when Kyle himself said it wasn't bothering him?

topscribe
09-14-2009, 02:45 PM
How can his injuried finger be a problem when Kyle himself said it wasn't bothering him?

I never believed him for a minute on that. Of course, he was going to say it.
He did mention in his postgame presser that he was getting the stitches out
and that it will make a difference. Yes, it was a problem. How could it not be?

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shank
09-14-2009, 02:48 PM
I never believed him for a minute on that. Of course, he was going to say it.
He did mention in his postgame presser that he was getting the stitches out
and that it will make a difference. Yes, it was a problem. How could it not be?

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i agree with you on this. kyle and his receivers said it wasn't making any difference, but i know how much different i have to throw with a jammed finger, let alone a nearly severed finger, stiched up, splinted, and gloved.

Dr Velcro
09-14-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't need to say anything that hasn't already been said.

Den21vsBal19
09-14-2009, 02:55 PM
How can his injuried finger be a problem when Kyle himself said it wasn't bothering him?
I meant the practice time that he missed, rather than the game itself

Some players moan about every little ache & pain, others suck it up and get on with it :whoknows:

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 03:20 PM
I believe the O-line is fine, regarding Clady, Harris, Wiegmann, and Kuper.
I agree with you that Hamiton's time may be past, and that he may be too
light to cope with McDaniels' power game

I do think ditching much of the the zone blocking is a mistake until they get
the personnel for what McDaniels wants to do . . . prinicpally, a bigger LG.

-----


I do not think they are ditching the ZBS as much as this O is really designed for the passing game more than the run game.. and while the DL are getting stronger and bigger each year.. Hamilton has only added weight in the long hair area..

he might have long strong hair but he has been pushed into the QB for 3-4 years now and had some help from tommy in the past but Casey has his own issues to deal with..

I think they will continue to ZBS when running the ball with an occasional pull from a guard to get down field more to nuke some LB's...

as coach said earlier it is wrong to expect the same thing we had last year from this one..

I would guess as so as Kuper is back his replacement will be the starting OLG.. we can not allow good DT's in the face of the QB when he is still learning this Offense and not yet reacting to all the nuisances involved in it....

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 03:27 PM
haters make it clear it's easy to rip orton for what he doesn't have in physical traits.

lovers make it clear it's easy to give orton props for his (supposed) brain power.

but what i saw yesterday was a quarterback with an arm that isn't a problem (the glove was a problem. when he had a good grip and as he became used to the glove, his pass velocity wasn't as bad as people would like you to believe). I saw a quarterback who wasn't comfortable in his offense.

orton seemed to be overthinking his reads. he seemed to be waiting for things to happen (could have been receiver problems with routes). and when he did make quick decisions they weren't the right ones.

hopefully more time in this offense will improve his playing. but i worry that he doesn't have the moxie some people claimed he does.

I just watched a video in the cutler thread that stated the only thing the bears had going for them at the end of last year was KO and Forte.. that KO actually carried the team in a few games last year.. at about the 1:05 minute mark..

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4471688

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 06:20 PM
here is a great interview with John

on Monday Morning QB with Miller and Lombardi

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com

Superchop 7
09-14-2009, 06:21 PM
Anybody that doesn't think we should get Garcia is clueless.

I thought we are supposed to look at EVERY opportunity to get better.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Anybody that doesn't think we should get Garcia is clueless.

I thought we are supposed to look at EVERY opportunity to get better.

Maybe they just don't share your opinion of Garcia, Chop . . . :coffee:

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Zweems56
09-14-2009, 06:25 PM
Anybody that doesn't think we should get Garcia is clueless.

I thought we are supposed to look at EVERY opportunity to get better.

Garcia signed with the eagles.

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 06:26 PM
Garcia signed with the eagles.


sounds like a 2-3 week rental to me..

Superchop 7
09-14-2009, 06:27 PM
Just in case you didn't read Dr Velcro.



Orton looked VERY uncomfortable. He has NO mobility at all. I hate saying that. I don't think he has any instinct. I was bothered that he seemed to throw to Gaffney most of the time. Mc'D was griping at him on the sidelines (I'd wondered if it were Mc'D at first, then I saw highlights on tv and yeah...).

Superchop 7
09-14-2009, 06:29 PM
Maybe they just don't share your opinion of Garcia, Chop . . . :coffee:

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__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Josh admit he is wrong ?

:laugh:

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 06:43 PM
Just in case you didn't read Dr Velcro.



Orton looked VERY uncomfortable. He has NO mobility at all. I hate saying that. I don't think he has any instinct. I was bothered that he seemed to throw to Gaffney most of the time. Mc'D was griping at him on the sidelines (I'd wondered if it were Mc'D at first, then I saw highlights on tv and yeah...).


__________________________________________________ ______________

Josh admit he is wrong ?

:laugh:


might want to listen to this

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com
in this thread

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58593


it might surprise you to find out John Elway does not share your thoughts..

T.K.O.
09-14-2009, 06:51 PM
Just in case you didn't read Dr Velcro.



Orton looked VERY uncomfortable. He has NO mobility at all. I hate saying that. I don't think he has any instinct. I was bothered that he seemed to throw to Gaffney most of the time. Mc'D was griping at him on the sidelines (I'd wondered if it were Mc'D at first, then I saw highlights on tv and yeah...).

he's 1-0 :welcome:

topscribe
09-14-2009, 07:13 PM
here is a great interview with John

on Monday Morning QB with Miller and Lombardi

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com

It was interesting to hear that Elway voiced about the same opinion as you
have, JR, that Orton is in a new system, and it will take a little time for him to
become completely comfortable with the new team and the new system.
Elway sees much better days ahead for Orton.

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NameUsedBefore
09-14-2009, 07:24 PM
He threw into triple coverage two plays in a row and came out with a miracle against a garbage team.

Don't bank on that being a common occurrence.

If you want to argue he'll get better than "getting better" surely needs to include expanding his range because this dink and dunk all day while our run-game gets stuffed is gonna be a feast for teams that can actually play ball.

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 07:37 PM
It was interesting to hear that Elway voiced about the same opinion as you
have, JR, that Orton is in a new system, and it will take a little time for him to
become completely comfortable with the new team and the new system.
Elway sees much better days ahead for Orton.

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hey everyone was giving jay three years to learn the playbook not sure why KO does not get more than 50 minutes..


for that matter everyone getting sometime before throwing them under the bus..

hypocrisy I guess.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 07:46 PM
He threw into triple coverage two plays in a row and came out with a miracle against a garbage team.

Don't bank on that being a common occurrence.

If you want to argue he'll get better than "getting better" surely needs to include expanding his range because this dink and dunk all day while our run-game gets stuffed is gonna be a feast for teams that can actually play ball.

Do you have John Elway's phone number? If you do, I suggest you call him
and take it up with him because, as I explained in the post immediately
preceding yours, Elway is the one who suggested Orton is going to get a
lot better . . .

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NameUsedBefore
09-14-2009, 07:53 PM
Non-sequitur.

Tned
09-14-2009, 08:01 PM
Do you have John Elway's phone number? If you do, I suggest you call him
and take it up with him because, as I explained in the post immediately
preceding yours, Elway is the one who suggested Orton is going to get a
lot better . . .

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I would say virtually ALL of us hope he's going to get better with time in the offense (assuming he is even here next year as he is an FA). However, the 'hope' that he will get better with time doesn't wipe out the reality that he has played poorly in pre-season and this first game. Not horrible, but no where near great.

While it is true he had some balls dropped, at least 2 or 3 (possibly more) of them were bad throws, where the receiver would have had to make a great catch. All QB's deal with drops, it's happening right now in the NE/BUF game.

The concerning fact is that Orton has not shown the great decision making that was supposed to make him a great system QB. I hope that is because he still isn't comfortable with the system, so it typically going with his first read, rather than progressing through the reads, but that in time that will come.

One example was when he threw to a double covered receiver (I think Marshall), when Stokely and Marshall (I think), both streak, but then Marshall breaks toward the sideline drawing double coverage, and Stokely runs free down the field. He chose the double covered receiver that was 4 yards short of the first down marker, rather than the wide open receiver that would have had a first down, and possibly a long TD.

He seems to lock on to receivers, and even in a situation where both receivers should have been in his field of vision (didn't have to scan the other side of the field), he threw to the double covered Marshall.

Maybe all the people that want Marshall benched are right, but not because Marshall isn't trying, but because Orton routinely threw to him while double and triple covered.

Lonestar
09-14-2009, 08:21 PM
Y'all might want to listen to this

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com


in this thread

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58593


it might surprise you to find out John Elway does not share your thoughts...


John was very specific about KO be just right for this offense and to give it time for them to GET it..

Now not sure about the rest of the fan's But I'm going to listen to the GOAT on this one..

topscribe
09-14-2009, 08:21 PM
I would say virtually ALL of us hope he's going to get better with time in the offense (assuming he is even here next year as he is an FA). However, the 'hope' that he will get better with time doesn't wipe out the reality that he has played poorly in pre-season and this first game. Not horrible, but no where near great.

While it is true he had some balls dropped, at least 2 or 3 (possibly more) of them were bad throws, where the receiver would have had to make a great catch. All QB's deal with drops, it's happening right now in the NE/BUF game.

The concerning fact is that Orton has not shown the great decision making that was supposed to make him a great system QB. I hope that is because he still isn't comfortable with the system, so it typically going with his first read, rather than progressing through the reads, but that in time that will come.

One example was when he threw to a double covered receiver (I think Marshall), when Stokely and Marshall (I think), both streak, but then Marshall breaks toward the sideline drawing double coverage, and Stokely runs free down the field. He chose the double covered receiver that was 4 yards short of the first down marker, rather than the wide open receiver that would have had a first down, and possibly a long TD.

He seems to lock on to receivers, and even in a situation where both receivers should have been in his field of vision (didn't have to scan the other side of the field), he threw to the double covered Marshall.

Maybe all the people that want Marshall benched are right, but not because Marshall isn't trying, but because Orton routinely threw to him while double and triple covered.

Of course we all hope Orton will get better. That's a no-brainer, isn't it?

My comment is John Elway, a former QB for the Denver Broncos, believes
Orton is still learning and adapting to the system and will get better. That
was my point.

-----

dunk7
09-14-2009, 08:31 PM
Does anyone expect Elway to say..."Yeah, Orton, he sucks."

In the immortal words of Dennis Green "He is what we thought he is". He's not going to win us any games but lets hope he doesn't lose us any.

topscribe
09-14-2009, 08:34 PM
Does anyone expect Elway to say..."Yeah, Orton, he sucks."

In the immortal words of Dennis Green "He is what we thought he is". He's not going to win us any games but lets hope he doesn't lose us any.

I guess you didn't listen to the interview . . .

-----

Tned
09-14-2009, 09:56 PM
Y'all might want to listen to this

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com


in this thread

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58593


it might surprise you to find out John Elway does not share your thoughts...


John was very specific about KO be just right for this offense and to give it time for them to GET it..

Now not sure about the rest of the fan's But I'm going to listen to the GOAT on this one..


Of course we all hope Orton will get better. That's a no-brainer, isn't it?

My comment is John Elway, a former QB for the Denver Broncos, believes
Orton is still learning and adapting to the system and will get better. That
was my point.

-----

He said much the same, but more flattering, about Cutler.

Regardless, the point is that the thread is about post game thoughts. Elway's comments about what 'could be' don't change the fact that Orton didn't play great. I haven't had a chance to watch McD's post game interview, but from the quotes I have seen from reporters, he was somewhat critical about Orton's play.

Now, the guy was playing with a finger that recently had a bone slice his skin open, and while his accuracy on the deep ball is clearly suspect, I think the knocks on his arm strength are a little exagerated. From what I have seen, Orton has reasonable arm strength for an NFL QB, what he seems to lack is what we would call distance control in golf.

In golf, it doesn't matter if you can hit your 9 iron 100 yards or 180 yards, as long as you always hit it the same distance. What kills you is when you hit it 140 yards on one shot, and on the next hole you hit it 155 yards and fly the green.

Orton appears to not always use his velocity consistantly. Some of the camp reports were that he often threw low, line drives on deep passes that o0verthrew the receiver (showing arm strength) or high floaters that came up short or were easily knocked down. Lack of consistant distance control and velocity. I am seeing the same thing on his shorter passes. Some times he throws it hard, orther times soft, but often not consistant.

That combined with throwing to double covered receivers (which isn't a finger/glove issue) and throwing off target (high, low, behind receiver, etc. -- which 'could' be from the finger/glove).

CrazyHorse
09-14-2009, 09:58 PM
might want to listen to this

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=61918@kcnc.dayport.com
in this thread

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58593


it might surprise you to find out John Elway does not share your thoughts..

John is just jealous Cutler has a " stronger arm than Elway"
LOL just kidding...

topscribe
09-14-2009, 10:18 PM
He said much the same, but more flattering, about Cutler.

Regardless, the point is that the thread is about post game thoughts. Elway's comments about what 'could be' don't change the fact that Orton didn't play great. I haven't had a chance to watch McD's post game interview, but from the quotes I have seen from reporters, he was somewhat critical about Orton's play.

Now, the guy was playing with a finger that recently had a bone slice his skin open, and while his accuracy on the deep ball is clearly suspect, I think the knocks on his arm strength are a little exagerated. From what I have seen, Orton has reasonable arm strength for an NFL QB, what he seems to lack is what we would call distance control in golf.

In golf, it doesn't matter if you can hit your 9 iron 100 yards or 180 yards, as long as you always hit it the same distance. What kills you is when you hit it 140 yards on one shot, and on the next hole you hit it 155 yards and fly the green.

Orton appears to not always use his velocity consistantly. Some of the camp reports were that he often threw low, line drives on deep passes that o0verthrew the receiver (showing arm strength) or high floaters that came up short or were easily knocked down. Lack of consistant distance control and velocity. I am seeing the same thing on his shorter passes. Some times he throws it hard, orther times soft, but often not consistant.

That combined with throwing to double covered receivers (which isn't a finger/glove issue) and throwing off target (high, low, behind receiver, etc. -- which 'could' be from the finger/glove).

Good post, basically.

Yes, McDaniels was somewhat critical of Orton's play, which he should
have been, and somewhat complimentary at the same time, which he
should have been. Orton did some good things, and he made some mistakes.
So, in all, he did not play great. You are right in that.

Despite Orton's claims to the contrary, I believe his finger did bother him
badly. How could 15 stitches in a finger not bother him? (Fortunately, he
reportedly has since gotten them out.)

But Elway's comments make all the sense, and he did say generally the
same thing about both QBs, which makes sense since both are going
through a mutually similar experience (except that Orton has better talent
and coaching around him). Elway said that they are learning a new system
and becoming used to new teams. He said it's going to take a little while
for both.

Shanahan said the same thing when he was here, that it takes a new QB a
while in a new system.

Elway also said he expects Orton to get much better, and I do, too, from
all that I've seen of Orton's experience last year with an inferior offense. Of
course, we are dealing with human beings here, which takes away the
absolute certainty in all cases. But I do believe we'll see a better QB in
Orton after the bye than before, and an even better one next year.

IMHO, of course.

-----

WARHORSE
09-14-2009, 10:20 PM
Nah, I don't think so. Orton had 12 INTs all last year. He may well have
been nervous this first game, and it's going to take a while to get
completely acclimated to McDaniels' system. Let's not forget that he also
was playing with 15 stitches in his finger.

Those are all reasons to hope it gets better for him, so I'm with you on
that. Orton had some bad passes, made some bad decisions. It was like he
was still thinking out there somewhat. I didn't like everything I saw. I know
McDaniels didn't.

All we can do is hope for improvement . . . and that Kuper returns . . . and,
as has been previously mentioned here, that receivers hang onto the
damned ball. :mad:

And that next time he sees Royal and/or Stokes when they are wide open . . .

-----


Well, Brady throws an INT today. Sends another one to Buffalo on a two point try.

Then Carson Palmer actually threw two picks yesterday, but we dropped two also.

Jay Cutler threw 4 picks, but could have been picked 6 times.



I believe Orton will get better once he settles down some more and we begin to run the ball. Thats the thing that bothered me the most: our rushing attack.

Also, I thought the variation of plays was lacking.

We got work to do as they say...........but I believe the offense will get better and better.:coffee:


:salute::salute::salute:

topscribe
09-14-2009, 10:29 PM
Well, Brady throws an INT today. Sends another one to Buffalo on a two point try.

Then Carson Palmer actually threw two picks yesterday, but we dropped two also.

Jay Cutler threw 4 picks, but could have been picked 6 times.



I believe Orton will get better once he settles down some more and we begin to run the ball. Thats the thing that bothered me the most: our rushing attack.

Also, I thought the variation of plays was lacking.

We got work to do as they say...........but I believe the offense will get better and better.:coffee:


:salute::salute::salute:

I hope so, War. I hope so . . .

-----

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 02:06 AM
the point of my post was he is learning a totally new system that NO BODY on the team is comfortable yet.. they are still thinking about what is going on around them instead of it being second nature.. and reacting to the blitz or open man thinking about where the WR are supposed to be or where I;m supposed to be in the route..

Right now they are almost playing sandlot football after drawing the play in the sand before each play.. now that is pretty simplified but the game plans are being drawn up each week to attack the weaknesses of the team they are playing.. yet the players are still thinking on the field opposed to being smooth..

The hesitation we are seeing is to be expected for awhile till they start just doing it naturally..

This being a radically new scheme for everyone I guess I do not understand why everyone seems to think they are going to be perfect and not make mistakes..

Every interview I hear after the games has been we have a lot of work to do.. mistakes were made and we have alot of work to do to get better.. that does not sound like any of them are happy with their play.. that they want to make it right..

everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to learn mike system and get comfortable in it ..

Yet everyone seems to think KO or Simms can come in from other Offenses and have this down pat in a few weeks.. not to mention all of the players on offense to be on the same page..

when I heard John say he was perfect for the system and that he will get better ONCE he learns it and is comfortable in it I was not saying anything more than it will take time..

I could care less if he said the same thing about jay and while it is true we are now only worried about Josh and KO getting on the same page..

those that seem to want to bring down Orton fro what ever reason need to realize anyone other than perhaps Cassell coming in will take time to learn it and get in sync with the OLINE, RB's and receivers..

now perhaps some folks will get it why he would have been interested in an OLD QB that knows his system..

topscribe
09-15-2009, 04:07 AM
I do not think they are ditching the ZBS as much as this O is really designed for the passing game more than the run game.. and while the DL are getting stronger and bigger each year.. Hamilton has only added weight in the long hair area..

he might have long strong hair but he has been pushed into the QB for 3-4 years now and had some help from tommy in the past but Casey has his own issues to deal with..

I think they will continue to ZBS when running the ball with an occasional pull from a guard to get down field more to nuke some LB's...

as coach said earlier it is wrong to expect the same thing we had last year from this one..

I would guess as so as Kuper is back his replacement will be the starting OLG.. we can not allow good DT's in the face of the QB when he is still learning this Offense and not yet reacting to all the nuisances involved in it....

Here's where I got the idea that they are phasing out ZBS and phasing in Power blocking:

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13283049

-----

WARHORSE
09-15-2009, 04:17 AM
Every interview I hear after the games has been we have a lot of work to do.. mistakes were made and we have alot of work to do to get better.. that does not sound like any of them are happy with their play.. that they want to make it right..

when I heard John say he was perfect for the system and that he will get better ONCE he learns it and is comfortable in it I was not saying anything more than it will take time..






Its that mentality that has me really buying into McDs way of doing things.

I hear guys saying, "Each week, we're just trying to get better....."

Whether we win or lose, everyone is saying, "We did some things wrong there. We have alot of work to do."

You gotta love that mentality.

I think its a winning one.:salute:

Tned
09-15-2009, 07:09 AM
Good post, basically.

Yes, McDaniels was somewhat critical of Orton's play, which he should
have been, and somewhat complimentary at the same time, which he
should have been. Orton did some good things, and he made some mistakes.
So, in all, he did not play great. You are right in that.

Despite Orton's claims to the contrary, I believe his finger did bother him
badly. How could 15 stitches in a finger not bother him? (Fortunately, he
reportedly has since gotten them out.)

But Elway's comments make all the sense, and he did say generally the
same thing about both QBs, which makes sense since both are going
through a mutually similar experience (except that Orton has better talent
and coaching around him). Elway said that they are learning a new system
and becoming used to new teams. He said it's going to take a little while
for both.

Shanahan said the same thing when he was here, that it takes a new QB a
while in a new system.

Elway also said he expects Orton to get much better, and I do, too, from
all that I've seen of Orton's experience last year with an inferior offense. Of
course, we are dealing with human beings here, which takes away the
absolute certainty in all cases. But I do believe we'll see a better QB in
Orton after the bye than before, and an even better one next year.

IMHO, of course.

-----

I have been part of the group of fans that think Orton could be a very good system QB in McDaniels' system. I am not in the group who thinks Orton is fallible and doesn't have limitations as QB and I am not in the group that feels Orton is a piece of crap.

Just like with all the players and the coach, I take a wait and see attitude, and hope he leads the Broncos to a lot of wins and if he is a good fit, that we can resign him after the season.

I do like the fact that he got out there and started practicing so soon after his finger injury, and then played with the stitches and glove. It shows he is a gamer, as you have recounted in many posts related to his play in Chicago when injured.

We are 1-0, that's the biggest issue right now.

Crush05
09-15-2009, 09:24 AM
I thought Orton's timeing was a little off. I also thought he could have avoided some sacks better but at least he didn't toss it to the Bengas defense.

:confused:ROFL could you be talking about the sack that took us out of field goal range and put us in jeopardy of losing the game until Stokley saved our butts!!!

OldschoolFreak
09-15-2009, 11:16 AM
everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to learn mike system and get comfortable in it ..

Yet everyone seems to think KO or Simms can come in from other Offenses and have this down pat in a few weeks.. not to mention all of the players on offense to be on the same page..



This is a very good point. It seems in our impatience, many on this board seem to be expecting unreasonably solid play. The team does deserve some time to learn the system and Orton is no different. That should not be overlooked.

...But man, I can't wait for that to occur because it's hard to watch right now with the offense just not clicking at all. That's my hope for next game; that we come together enough to at least string a couple drives togethr with some plays that show our offensive guys have a shared understanding of what is supposed to be happening.

Day1BroncoFan
09-15-2009, 02:58 PM
:confused:ROFL could you be talking about the sack that took us out of field goal range and put us in jeopardy of losing the game until Stokley saved our butts!!!

Stokley was at the right place right time and that was a pure and simple miracle but yes, that sack would have been one of the sacks.

claymore
09-15-2009, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Jrwiz
everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to learn mike system and get comfortable in it ..

Yet everyone seems to think KO or Simms can come in from other Offenses and have this down pat in a few weeks.. not to mention all of the players on offense to be on the same page..



This is a very good point. It seems in our impatience, many on this board seem to be expecting unreasonably solid play. The team does deserve some time to learn the system and Orton is no different. That should not be overlooked.

...But man, I can't wait for that to occur because it's hard to watch right now with the offense just not clicking at all. That's my hope for next game; that we come together enough to at least string a couple drives togethr with some plays that show our offensive guys have a shared understanding of what is supposed to be happening.

I dont think it is impatience, it is just a general feeling that Kyle Orton isnt very good. No matter what system he's in.

I hated Simms before he got here, and was indifferent to Orton. I have zero faith those guys are the long term answer. Therefore I have no problem blaming them for all of our woes.

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 03:31 PM
I dont think it is impatience, it is just a general feeling that Kyle Orton isnt very good. No matter what system he's in.

I hated Simms before he got here, and was indifferent to Orton. I have zero faith those guys are the long term answer. Therefore I have no problem blaming them for all of our woes.


guess then I was justified in feeling the same way with jay..:salute:

claymore
09-15-2009, 03:33 PM
guess then I was justified in feeling the same way with jay..:salute:

You were a 100% correct on that one. At least we got some really good compensation for the pick we used on him. Hopefully we will get something for the heartache Orton is going to put us thru.

topscribe
09-15-2009, 03:34 PM
I have been part of the group of fans that think Orton could be a very good system QB in McDaniels' system. I am not in the group who thinks Orton is fallible and doesn't have limitations as QB and I am not in the group that feels Orton is a piece of crap.

Just like with all the players and the coach, I take a wait and see attitude, and hope he leads the Broncos to a lot of wins and if he is a good fit, that we can resign him after the season.

I do like the fact that he got out there and started practicing so soon after his finger injury, and then played with the stitches and glove. It shows he is a gamer, as you have recounted in many posts related to his play in Chicago when injured.

We are 1-0, that's the biggest issue right now.

I absolutely agree with you on wait-and-see. I know I have a reputation as
an "Orton-lover," but that has never been the case. All I have tried to do is
to rebut the "rag arm" and "loser" implications others have tried to put on
him, by my showing what I have discovered in the research I have done.

That by no means gives Orton a pass here. He has to prove himself, as all
players do, as you implied. He may excel, and he may tank. All I would like
to see is for us all to give him a chance. I know you would, too . . .

-----

Lonestar
09-15-2009, 04:10 PM
most of us old Jake fans did much the same for Jake when the haters came on and decided he was the Antichrist..

frankly he was not a great QB like John was but he was a winner, a great field general and the players loved his heart..

why some of the fans did not was beyond my comprehension..

will Orton be another Tom Brady most likely not.. but then Tom Brady was not all that hot when he was drafted either..

one would think fans should give him a chance to prove or disproved their ideas about him..

One game Hey Brady got more than that..

Tned
09-16-2009, 06:45 AM
FWIW, a tweet from Vic Lombardi:

@VicLombardi my defense of Kye Orton tonight at 10pm...after watching gametape, he was much better than I thought.

CoachChaz
09-16-2009, 06:59 AM
The different attitude is funny.

McKelvin runs a kickoff out of the endzone that he never should have...fights for extra yards when he had nowhere to go and fumbles the ball. The Pats get it back and Brady has good field position and timeouts available and they score and win. Pats fans and NFL pundits can do nothing but talk about how great NE is and how Brady is "back".

Stokely catches a TD pas on a tipped ball and Orton "got lucky".

That's the sad difference. Pats fans seem to know that every team makes their own luck and you take advantage of the good graces that are sometimes bestowed upon a team. It's not how you get them, but what you so with them. I sure as hell wish some Broncos fans couls get their heads out of Raider mentatlity long enough to appreciate the good times when they are here.

Tned
09-16-2009, 07:04 AM
The different attitude is funny.

McKelvin runs a kickoff out of the endzone that he never should have...fights for extra yards when he had nowhere to go and fumbles the ball. The Pats get it back and Brady has good field position and timeouts available and they score and win. Pats fans and NFL pundits can do nothing but talk about how great NE is and how Brady is "back".

Stokely catches a TD pas on a tipped ball and Orton "got lucky".

That's the sad difference. Pats fans seem to know that every team makes their own luck and you take advantage of the good graces that are sometimes bestowed upon a team. It's not how you get them, but what you so with them. I sure as hell wish some Broncos fans couls get their heads out of Raider mentatlity long enough to appreciate the good times when they are here.

One differences is that NE scored two TD's in a little over a minute. No question, they got helped out big time by the bonehead play by the kick returner, but they had just scored a TD seconds before.

claymore
09-16-2009, 07:09 AM
The different attitude is funny.

McKelvin runs a kickoff out of the endzone that he never should have...fights for extra yards when he had nowhere to go and fumbles the ball. The Pats get it back and Brady has good field position and timeouts available and they score and win. Pats fans and NFL pundits can do nothing but talk about how great NE is and how Brady is "back".

Stokely catches a TD pas on a tipped ball and Orton "got lucky".

That's the sad difference. Pats fans seem to know that every team makes their own luck and you take advantage of the good graces that are sometimes bestowed upon a team. It's not how you get them, but what you so with them. I sure as hell wish some Broncos fans couls get their heads out of Raider mentatlity long enough to appreciate the good times when they are here.

LOL. Orton threw a boneheaded desperation pass. Thats the difference.

EastCoastBronco
09-16-2009, 07:17 AM
LOL. Orton threw a boneheaded desperation pass. Thats the difference.

You just can't let it go, can you. You are truly addicted to the negative crack...

Once you start down the dark path...forever will it dominate your destiny.

claymore
09-16-2009, 07:32 AM
You just can't let it go, can you. You are truly addicted to the negative crack...

Once you start down the dark path...forever will it dominate your destiny.

So throwing into triple coverage, and being completley off target was a good decision?

I refuse to blindly support poor play. Enjoy Ortons nuts.

EastCoastBronco
09-16-2009, 08:04 AM
So throwing into triple coverage, and being completley off target was a good decision?

I refuse to blindly support poor play. Enjoy Ortons nuts.

Yeah, I forgot. Jay never threw into triple coverage. In fact, he looked freakin great Sunday night. I was sitting there the whole first half wishing that he could have thrown those picks for us instead if Chicago. You're so bitter you can't even enjoy it when good things happen. You have truly gone to the dark side, clay.

claymore
09-16-2009, 08:35 AM
Yeah, I forgot. Jay never threw into triple coverage. In fact, he looked freakin great Sunday night. I was sitting there the whole first half wishing that he could have thrown those picks for us instead if Chicago. You're so bitter you can't even enjoy it when good things happen. You have truly gone to the dark side, clay.

You guys cannot post without mentioning Cutler. I wish I hated Cutler like some of you guys. Maybe it would distractm me from the fact our Offense is anemic, and we needed a miracle longest game winning TD in the history of the NFL to beat a team that only scored 7 points.

EastCoastBronco
09-16-2009, 08:51 AM
You guys cannot post without mentioning Cutler. I wish I hated Cutler like some of you guys. Maybe it would distractm me from the fact our Offense is anemic, and we needed a miracle longest game winning TD in the history of the NFL to beat a team that only scored 7 points.

You seem to have the same affliction when it comes to not being able to post without hating on McDaniels or stating how bad a QB Orton is.
This is really going nowhere. I can't believe I took the bait again...;-)

topscribe
09-16-2009, 08:56 AM
You guys cannot post without mentioning Cutler. I wish I hated Cutler like some of you guys. Maybe it would distractm me from the fact our Offense is anemic, and we needed a miracle longest game winning TD in the history of the NFL to beat a team that only scored 7 points.

Clay, do you think it would have made a difference, had Marshall caught that
50-yard bomb from Orton? How about any one of the other six drops? Do you
think they might have made a difference?

You talk about how others hate Cutler, yet you seem obsessed with Orton.
Do I see a double standard in progress inside that pretty little head of yours?

-----

claymore
09-16-2009, 08:59 AM
You seem to have the same affliction when it comes to not being able to post without mentioning how shitty a job McDaniels is doing or how bad a QB Orton is.
This is really going nowhere. I can't believe I took the bait again...;-)

Yeah, you're a real martyr. I stated the truth that it was a bad pass. Since it wasnt sunshine and lollipops you couldnt take it.

claymore
09-16-2009, 09:03 AM
Clay, do you think it would have made a difference, had Marshall caught that
50-yard bomb from Orton? How about any one of the other six drops? Do you
think they might have made a difference?

You talk about how others hate Cutler, yet you seem obsessed with Orton.
Do I see a double standard in progress inside that pretty little head of yours?

-----

Im sure they would have. If we cannot rely on Marshall then we need to cut him or trade him.

Our offense is bad in general. I do not hate Orton, I just think he is a bad QB.

CoachChaz
09-16-2009, 09:21 AM
LOL. Orton threw a boneheaded desperation pass. Thats the difference.

If I'm not mistaken...it was a bone-headed pass from Brady that put them in the situation to have no choice but to score 2 late TD's to win.

claymore
09-16-2009, 09:26 AM
If I'm not mistaken...it was a bone-headed pass from Brady that put them in the situation to have no choice but to score 2 late TD's to win.

Brady has proven that a bad pass isnt the norm. His body of work speaks for itself.

Orton hasnt earned that yet. Hopefully that changes.

NightTrainLayne
09-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Im sure they would have. If we cannot rely on Marshall then we need to cut him or trade him.

Our offense is bad in general. I do not hate Orton, I just think he is a bad QB.

Our offense will get better as the season progresses. It's a completely new system, and we still haven't got all the parts on the field at the same time (Kuper out).

Our Defense played tremendously well. I think they probably over-acheived last week, and I was very proud of them. Of course, the Bungles shot themselves in the foot a couple times.

Our defense will probably come back to the mean a little bit. I'm not sure they'll play that well every week, but we won't be playing as talented of an offense every week either.

The Bengals have a ton of talent on that team on both sides of the ball. Everyone wants to focus on a "miracle" catch and run by Stokely, but let's keep it in perspective. If not for a couple of penalties negating a first down inside of the 15, and then a sack that took us out of field-goal range, we have that game wrapped up. We had some bad luck to have some penalties kill that drive, and then a mistake to take a sack there (I haven't seen it, but based on the radio coverage I kinda blame the play-call there. . .just run it and take the easy FG). IE, we definitely played well enough to win that game ON THE ROAD, against a talented, better-than-their-history-indicates Bengals team. We got "unlucky" in a way before we got "lucky" on the last-second TD. We could have won that game without the miracle if not for a killer holding call that negated a Daniel Graham first down inside the 15.

If our offense can continue to improve, and protect the ball (no turnovers) we will surprise some folks, especially in the latter half of the season.

I think that this year's schedule, if it proves to be as difficult as we imagine, will be a blessing in disguise. It will bring this team together, and challenge them to improve in every facet of the game. We'll surprise some folks this season, and be primed for the playoffs next season.

Mark it down.

CoachChaz
09-16-2009, 09:30 AM
Brady has proven that a bad pass isnt the norm. His body of work speaks for itself.

Orton hasnt earned that yet. Hopefully that changes.

Why does "he hasnt earned it" always end up being the catch-all excuse? It's like Christians when they cant answer a question. They always throw out the "free will" excuse.

So because Brady is Brady, he should get a pass when he plays bad. That's just silly.

claymore
09-16-2009, 09:33 AM
Our offense will get better as the season progresses. It's a completely new system, and we still haven't got all the parts on the field at the same time (Kuper out).

Our Defense played tremendously well. I think they probably over-acheived last week, and I was very proud of them. Of course, the Bungles shot themselves in the foot a couple times.

Our defense will probably come back to the mean a little bit. I'm not sure they'll play that well every week, but we won't be playing as talented of an offense every week either.

The Bengals have a ton of talent on that team on both sides of the ball. Everyone wants to focus on a "miracle" catch and run by Stokely, but let's keep it in perspective. If not for a couple of penalties negating a first down inside of the 15, and then a sack that took us out of field-goal range, we have that game wrapped up. We had some bad luck to have some penalties kill that drive, and then a mistake to take a sack there (I haven't seen it, but based on the radio coverage I kinda blame the play-call there. . .just run it and take the easy FG). IE, we definitely played well enough to win that game ON THE ROAD, against a talented, better-than-their-history-indicates Bengals team. We got "unlucky" in a way before we got "lucky" on the last-second TD. We could have won that game without the miracle if not for a killer holding call that negated a Daniel Graham first down inside the 15.

If our offense can continue to improve, and protect the ball (no turnovers) we will surprise some folks, especially in the latter half of the season.

I think that this year's schedule, if it proves to be as difficult as we imagine, will be a blessing in disguise. It will bring this team together, and challenge them to improve in every facet of the game. We'll surprise some folks this season, and be primed for the playoffs next season.

Mark it down.

I to think our Defense over achieved., And ,man am I ready to see it with those guys. I love seeing the heart. Third downs continue to be our weakness. It seems like teams are more likely to cconvert a 3rd and 8 than a third and 3.

My main problem with our O was the 3rd down conversions. Its impossoble for me to argue the luck argument. This team has been unlucky in a number of things. We have to over come that, hopefully the Immaculate deflection was the end of it.

claymore
09-16-2009, 09:38 AM
Why does "he hasnt earned it" always end up being the catch-all excuse? It's like Christians when they cant answer a question. They always throw out the "free will" excuse.

So because Brady is Brady, he should get a pass when he plays bad. That's just silly.

I cant argue that. Its just the way it is.

People didnt drop Tom Brady from their fantasy leagues to pick up Kyle Orton because of his bad pass. Nor did they not do it because of Ortons lucky TD deflection.

They didnt do it because Brady is deemed a great QB. Future HOF guy. Orton isnt even a guarenteed starter. Orton is a no named guy, who hasnt earned the respect of the masses.

If it was a bad ass throw, that was right on target... Orton would have got his props.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 09:44 AM
So throwing into triple coverage, and being completley off target was a good decision?

I refuse to blindly support poor play. Enjoy Ortons nuts.

Actually, the pass was right on the money. Had it not been tipped, it would
have found its way right to Marshall's hands. Watch it again . . .

-----

claymore
09-16-2009, 09:50 AM
Actually, the pass was right on the money. Had it not been tipped, it would
have found its way right to Marshall's hands. Watch it again . . .

-----

it would have been right on the money if the defender wasnt right there. Same can be said for our previous QB.

shank
09-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Actually, the pass was right on the money. Had it not been tipped, it would
have found its way right to Marshall's hands. Watch it again . . .

-----

it wasn't a bad throw, it was a bad decision.

if the defense had played that properly, it would have been picked by one of the other two defenders instead of falling into the hands of stoke. i realize that orton, with that little time left in the game, didn't really have the luxory of making only good decisions...

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 11:28 AM
That throw was short, and just because it was down the same sideline as the WR, doesn't make it a good throw. Three defenders were able to get around the ball, because it was short and thrown late. Lots of throws are considered 'good throws' if the defense wasn't on the field.

WARHORSE
09-16-2009, 11:47 AM
That throw was short, and just because it was down the same sideline as the WR, doesn't make it a good throw. Three defenders were able to get around the ball, because it was short and thrown late. Lots of throws are considered 'good throws' if the defense wasn't on the field.


It was an 87 yard touchdown. :salute:


I look for better play from Orton....and the entire offense.


Lets save the downpours for the losses, and enjoy our wins.

Whaddya say?:coffee:

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 11:49 AM
It was an 87 yard touchdown. :salute:


I look for better play from Orton....and the entire offense.


Lets save the downpours for the losses, and enjoy our wins.

Whaddya say?:coffee:

good post BUT

for some it will never be right/OK until mike and jay are back in the saddle..

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 11:52 AM
good post BUT

for some it will never be right/OK until mike and jay are back in the saddle..

Has nothing to do with that, hypo..... and I'm thrilled we won. But lets call a spade a spade and not say "that pass was a good pass had the defenders not knocked it down."

I know that if the defenders didn't tackle Moreno, he would have had MUCH better stats and would have made some HUGE TDs!!!

But then.. I guess that just means I want Shanahan :lol: :laugh:

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 11:56 AM
I to think our Defense over achieved., And ,man am I ready to see it with those guys. I love seeing the heart.

.

thank you brian dawkins !
he is putting the fire back in this :defense:
and teaching the youngsters to give 1000%,you cant put a price (or an age bracket) on HEART !:salute:

claymore
09-16-2009, 11:58 AM
thank you brian dawkins !
he is putting the fire back in this :defense:
and teaching the youngsters to give 1000%,you cant put a price (or an age bracket) on HEART !:salute:

I give credit to the coaching staff. I hope Dawkins isnt the reason for the turnaround. (Because he is a 2 year bandaid)

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 12:02 PM
I give credit to the coaching staff. I hope Dawkins isnt the reason for the turnaround. (Because he is a 2 year bandaid)

agreed,the d is definately enjoying the more aggressive style ,but even if dawkins is a bandaid....maybe the infection will be gone when it comes off.;)

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 12:05 PM
I give credit to the coaching staff. I hope Dawkins isnt the reason for the turnaround. (Because he is a 2 year bandaid)


perhaps but it is a step in the right direction and if these kiddies learn how to play football Dawkins style then he is a great band aid.. something this team needed after John Lynch retired..

something that the mokes we had last year could not do..

right now we need all the help we can get.. and some of the kiddies look promising also no better mentor than DAWK..

claymore
09-16-2009, 12:06 PM
agreed,the d is definately enjoying the more aggressive style ,but even if dawkins is a bandaid....maybe the infection will be gone when it comes off.;)

Hell yeah. We needed some direction this year.

claymore
09-16-2009, 12:08 PM
perhaps but it is a step in the right direction and if these kiddies learn how to play football Dawkins style then he is a great band aid.. something this team needed after John Lynch retired..

something that the mokes we had last year could not do..

right now we need all the help we can get.. and some of the kiddies look promising also no better mentor than DAWK..

I just want someone we draft to be that leader. Hopefully someone can pick it up from Dawk. We have a good bunch of youngsters this year. Im sure its possible.

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 12:11 PM
I just want someone we draft to be that leader. Hopefully someone can pick it up from Dawk. We have a good bunch of youngsters this year. Im sure its possible.


I suspect it is Smith and Woodyard not to mention Larsen..

Bruton looks like a comer also.. but do not expect them to step into the breach until Dawkins relinquishes that leader role..

They would be stupid to challenge him..

Day1BroncoFan
09-16-2009, 12:26 PM
Since we're talking if's.

If all the dropped passed and penalties were taken out of this game, none of which were Orton's fault we would be having a completely different conversation.

If some of our drives were not killed by dropped passes and/or penalties the chances are we would not have needed a miracle play to win the game. The horrible running game may have been better as a result of this as well.

If the D would not have missed some great oppurtunities for int's we would have had more chances to score points.

How the hell do you figure all of that is Orton's fault? I'm not saying Orton is the best thing since sliced bread but he isn't near as bad as some of you want to make him be, at least not yet.

It's only been one game and one we won.

Just so you all know, if's don't count in reality. ;)

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Since we're talking if's.

If all the dropped passed and penalties were taken out of this game, none of which were Orton's fault we would be having a completely different conversation.

If some of our drives were not killed by dropped passes and/or penalties the chances are we would not have needed a miracle play to win the game. The horrible running game may have been better as a result of this as well.

If the D would not have missed some great oppurtunities for int's we would have had more chances to score points.

How the hell do you figure all of that is Orton's fault? I'm not saying Orton is the best thing since sliced bread but he isn't near as bad as some of you want to make him be, at least not yet.

It's only been one game and one we won.

Just so you all know, if's don't count in reality. ;)

what "IF" he did'nt have stitches in his throwing hand?
i'd say he did ok considering all the "ifs":D

claymore
09-16-2009, 12:37 PM
If we had a good QB we wouldnt be talking If's. :D

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 12:44 PM
If we had a good QB we wouldnt be talking If's. :D

we do have a good qb....we just dont have a GREAT qb
at least he didnt throw 4 picks right?:D

NightTrainLayne
09-16-2009, 12:45 PM
If we had a good QB we wouldnt be talking If's. :D

I'm having a hard time figuring why we're talking ifs anyways. . ..we won the damn game!

Slick
09-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Do you think Kyle ever trolls the forums?

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 12:50 PM
Do you think Kyle ever trolls the forums?


he is Clay, but looking for love in all the wrong places..

claymore
09-16-2009, 12:54 PM
Do you think Kyle ever trolls the forums?


he is Clay, but looking for love in all the wrong places..
LOL, If I was a pro player this is the last place I would go! Id get my feelings hurt pretty quick.

dogfish
09-16-2009, 01:07 PM
Do you think Kyle ever trolls the forums?


he took over top's account back around july. . . . :listen:

claymore
09-16-2009, 01:11 PM
he took over top's account back around july. . . . :listen:

And Plummer took over Jr's. :D

Tned
09-16-2009, 02:28 PM
good post BUT

for some it will never be right/OK until mike and jay are back in the saddle..

Honest question. Why must you turn EVERY thread into a Shanahan/Cutler thread?

There are one or two posters that I can think of that have suggested that Shanahan should be rehired, and nobody I know of that thinks Cutler will be back in Denver, so think about how crazy your post is.

This is stirring shit up for the sake of stirring it up. I just don't get the reason for doing it.

Tned
09-16-2009, 02:31 PM
Do you think Kyle ever trolls the forums?

I know at least some family members of players check out this forum -- reading, but not posting.

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Honest question. Why must you turn EVERY thread into a Shanahan/Cutler thread?

There are one or two posters that I can think of that have suggested that Shanahan should be rehired, and nobody I know of that thinks Cutler will be back in Denver, so think about how crazy your post is.

This is stirring shit up for the sake of stirring it up. I just don't get the reason for doing it.




because for some they will not ever be happy with Josh and whomever he brings to town..

If that is not a fact, then I can't help it..

some will eventually see that jay may not have worked out in this system..

some will figure out we do not have to have a rocket armed QB to win more games..

and some will never get past John and Jay..

now that comment was buried and few pages back and forgotten until you brought it up again..


see Y'all Monday..

Tned
09-16-2009, 02:40 PM
because for some they will not ever be happy with Josh and whomever he brings to town..

If that is not a fact, then I can't help it..

some will eventually see that jay may not have worked out in this system..

some will figure out we do not have to have a rocket armed QB to win more games..

and some will never get past John and Jay..

now that comment was buried and few pages back and forgotten until you brought it up again..


see Y'all Monday..

When I hit "go to first unread post" it was the third post I came to. Unless I am the ONLY person on the message board that uses that feature, I am sure many others will see it also.

The point is that you don't have to turn every debate into a Jay/Shanny bashing session.

They are gone, let it go.

Tned
09-16-2009, 02:42 PM
now that comment was buried and few pages back and forgotten until you brought it up again..


see Y'all Monday..

P.S. That 'buried' comment was around 11:00 today, or about 3 hours ago. It isn't like I dug up a 3 month old post. :confused:

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 02:44 PM
uhhh...... it could have ended badly !:mad:

but did'nt:elefant:

claymore
09-16-2009, 02:51 PM
Honest question. Why must you turn EVERY thread into a Shanahan/Cutler thread?

There are one or two posters that I can think of that have suggested that Shanahan should be rehired, and nobody I know of that thinks Cutler will be back in Denver, so think about how crazy your post is.

This is stirring shit up for the sake of stirring it up. I just don't get the reason for doing it.

Thank you.

Tned
09-16-2009, 02:58 PM
uhhh...... it could have ended badly !:mad:

but did'nt:elefant:

Which is really all that matters. I would have preferred to see more offense. Better decisions by Orton, better results from Moreno, fewer dropped passes, but....

We won. We are 1-0. McDaniels streak of NEVER being on a losing team is intact.

It's time to rejoice, not fight over not winning 'good enough'.

broncofaninfla
09-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Fact is, it looks like every offesne in the AFC West is better than ours. Granted our defense seems like it has improved but we have a long way to go on offense. We'll see how good our running game is against Cleveland. Minnesota ran all over them. Hopefully we can do the same. If not, I'll have even more doubts.

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 03:35 PM
Fact is, it looks like every offesne in the AFC West is better than ours. Granted our defense seems like it has improved but we have a long way to go on offense. We'll see how good our running game is against Cleveland. Minnesota ran all over them. Hopefully we can do the same. If not, I'll have even more doubts.

uhhh..... minnesota runs all over everybody ! i would'nt use that as an accurate gauge.;)
but we do have a ways to go before anyone will call us an offensive powerhouse !

topscribe
09-16-2009, 03:40 PM
That throw was short, and just because it was down the same sideline as the WR, doesn't make it a good throw. Three defenders were able to get around the ball, because it was short and thrown late. Lots of throws are considered 'good throws' if the defense wasn't on the field.

Here, take a look: http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d8129cb0e/Brandon-Stokley-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Bengals-2009

Now, stop it at 1:39.

If the throw was short, how come Marshall has his hands up?? How come
the defender had to jump at the ball, and it was tipped upward? The
throw was NOT short. In fact, it was headed right for Marshall's hands,
above his head.

And it was NOT triple-coverage. That is a crock. There was one defender
on Orton, another in zone, and the third was on Stokley until he saw where
the pass was going and ran over there. Marshall was in single coverage
until the pass started going toward him.

The video proves all this. Pay attention, please . . .

-----

topscribe
09-16-2009, 03:48 PM
good post BUT

for some it will never be right/OK until mike and jay are back in the saddle..


Honest question. Why must you turn EVERY thread into a Shanahan/Cutler thread?

There are one or two posters that I can think of that have suggested that Shanahan should be rehired, and nobody I know of that thinks Cutler will be back in Denver, so think about how crazy your post is.

This is stirring shit up for the sake of stirring it up. I just don't get the reason for doing it.

I have to agree with JR on this point. For many (not all, but many), I'm afraid
it is the love for Jay and/or Shanny that has helped to incite the hatred
toward Orton. It can't be because of Orton's past performances . . . had they
bothered to research his past. It has to be either the pining for Jay or that
they have just decided they aren't going to like Orton, no matter what.

Nope, as I mentioned, I agree totally with JR's post here . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 03:49 PM
I didn't say triple coverage... :coffee: I said three defenders were there... and the pass was short. If you can't see that the pass was short in THAT video, then youahve COMPLETELY and TOTALLY taken away every single ounce of credibility that you have ever tried to established and tried SO VERY VERY hard to prove you have. That pass was SHORT, and the reason Marsh and the defender JUMPS up.. is to get the pass at the highest point. Marshall practically STOPS his rout so that he can then JUMP to get the pass because he would ahve out-run it had he kept going.

I don't know why you insist....but its not even an insult to him. No one expected him to complete the deep pass with 26 seconds and the defense waiting. I'm not insulting his arm strength, because we ALREADY KNOW that he can throw the ball 70 yards in the air with proof from your QB challenge stats. But the pass was short, THANK you for providing the video proof.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 03:58 PM
I didn't say triple coverage... :coffee: I said three defenders were there... and the pass was short

Short pass? Well, it went about 33 yards in the air. And, as I said (since you
apparently are not interested in viewing the video, as I requested) that one
defender was on Marshall, another was off him about three yards in zone
coverage, and the third was on Stokley, about six yards away. Now, that
was as the ball arrived. In other words, when the defender jumped up to tip
the ball, the others were still that far away, respectively.

And you can sit there like a stubborn adolescent all you want and say,
"The pass was short." But when the defender has to jump to tip the ball
upward, and Marshall is on his tiptoes with his hands up to receive it, the
picture clearly shows the pass was not short.

I have provided the evidence. You are disputing the proof, not me.

Clay is the one who has been saying "triple coverage." So I hope he views
the vid as I requested.

-----

Tned
09-16-2009, 03:58 PM
I have to agree with JR on this point. For many (not all, but many), I'm afraid
it is the love for Jay and/or Shanny that has helped to incite the hatred
toward Orton. It can't be because of Orton's past performances . . . had they
bothered to research his past. It has to be either the pining for Jay or that
they have just decided they aren't going to like Orton, no matter what.

Nope, as I mentioned, I agree totally with JR's post here . . .

-----

And for others, it is simply the hate they had for Shanahan and Cutler (in many cases in Cutler's case, it was simply because he replaced Plummer), that they must bash Shanahan and Cutler at every turn.

At what point do we move on and that Shanny haters stop bringing him up when it isn't even the topic of the thread? :confused:

Where have people, other than NB, said, "Bowlen needs to hire Shanahan back"? Not many that I am aware of.

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Short pass? Well, it went about 33 yards in the air. And, as I said (since you
apparently are not interested in viewing the video, as I requested) that one
defender was on Marshall, another was off him about three yards in zone
coverage, and the third was on Stokley, about six yards away. Now, that
was as the ball arrived. In other words, when the defender jumped up to tip
the ball, the others were still that far away, respectively.

And you can sit there like a stubborn adolescent all you want and say,
"The pass was short." But when the defender has to jump to tip the ball
upward, and Marshall is on his tiptoes with his hands up to receive it, the
picture clearly shows the pass was not short.

I have provided the evidence. You are disputing the proof, not me.

Clay is the one who has been saying "triple coverage." So I hope he views
the vid as I requested.

-----


Re-read my post. I watched that video.. THANK YOU.. .. because it shows a SHORT pass. They JUMP.. because thats how you GET TO THE BALL BEFORE THE OTHER GUY DOES!! They came BACK to the ball... and JUMPED to knock it down. Marshall practicallly stops and TURNS around, and JUMPS because the pass is short. Do you see how Marshalls FRONT numbers are facing the QB as he's jumping for the ball??? You can't turn around and jump BACK for the pass if he was being led. IT was short, but that doesn't mean its an insult to the QB. No one was expecting him to complete that pass anyway.... period.

SHORT in meaning it wasn't long enough to go OVER The receiver and LEAD him...I have NOOOOOOO friggin Idea why you want to tell me it goes 33 yrds in the air as proof that it wasn't short. :confused:

topscribe
09-16-2009, 04:02 PM
And for others, it is simply the hate they had for Shanahan and Cutler (in many cases in Cutler's case, it was simply because he replaced Plummer), that they must bash Shanahan and Cutler at every turn.

At what point do we move on and that Shanny haters stop bringing him up when it isn't even the topic of the thread? :confused:

Where have people, other than NB, said, "Bowlen needs to hire Shanahan back"? Not many that I am aware of.

Well, I guess we're essentially on the same page. I want a player judged for
how that player performs, not from uninformed bias or a man-crush on a
former player, no matter who the former and present players are. I know you
agree with that.

-----

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 04:08 PM
i was a huge fan of shanny and cutler....now not so much.( though i will always respect shanny and he has my eternal gratitude for putting those shiny things in my avy)
now im a fan of mcdaniels and orton.....i guess you could call it blind allegience,but i like to think of it as just a fan who has been somewhat un-impressed with the team lately and want to give the new regime a chance to fix what was wrong.
granted some of the changes have been a shocker.....but you cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs !!!!!:beer:

topscribe
09-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Re-read my post. I watched that video.. THANK YOU.. .. because it shows a SHORT pass. They JUMP.. because thats how you GET TO THE BALL BEFORE THE OTHER GUY DOES!! They came BACK to the ball... and JUMPED to knock it down. Marshall practicallly stops and TURNS around, and JUMPS because the pass is short.

SHORT in meaning it wasn't long enough to go OVER The receiver and LEAD him...I have NOOOOOOO friggin Idea why you want to tell me it goes 33 yrds in the air as proof that it wasn't short. :confused:

If they jumped for a pass that fell short (a better way of putting it so it can
be understood since the reader cannot read your mind), how come they
jumped up instead of down? No matter how you want to spin it, that was a
pretty good pass. The defender barely tipped the ball (whch is the reason
it flew upward). Had the defender not been able to tip it, Marshall would
have caught it (assuming he didn't drop it).

Live in denial all you want. It is there for us all to see.

-----

topscribe
09-16-2009, 04:21 PM
it wasn't a bad throw, it was a bad decision.

if the defense had played that properly, it would have been picked by one of the other two defenders instead of falling into the hands of stoke. i realize that orton, with that little time left in the game, didn't really have the luxory of making only good decisions...

Shank, had the defense played it properly, neither of the other two defenders
would have been anywhere around the ball because the other CB would have
maintained his coverage on Stokley, and the safety, who was in zone, would
have been much deeper on the play.

Even as it was, neither of them had a chance at the ball, had it not been
tipped. Stokley's CB was still six yards from the ball when it arrived, and the
safety was about three yards away. The only person on the field who had
a chance to actually catch it was Marshall. The guy who tipped it (Hall)
had no chance. That's why it caromed upward as it did: it was too high for
him.

-----

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 04:26 PM
If they jumped for a pass that fell short (a better way of putting it so it can
be understood since the reader cannot read your mind), how come they
jumped up instead of down? No matter how you want to spin it, that was a
pretty good pass. The defender barely tipped the ball (whch is the reason
it flew upward). Had the defender not been able to tip it, Marshall would
have caught it (assuming he didn't drop it).

Live in denial all you want. It is there for us all to see.

-----

Top... you see marshall TURNING AROUND. You see his FRONT numbers FACING the QB as he's jumping BACK AN UP to the ball. THat is NOT a ball that was thrown deep enough to lead him.

You can deny it. .. you can jump and defend it alll you want. Again, I'm not criticizing the throw and saying it should have been better. .. I'm not complaining that the throw WOULD have been completed had it been thrown better..... but I'm calling a spade a spade and saying that the ball was thrown SHORT for a fly rout, and that is what Marshall was running... "all Go" I believe is the call. All GOOOOOO..... but Marshall has to TURN around and try to Jump BACK TO THE BALL because it was a short throw that did NOT lead him.

I'm sorry you are unable to tell the difference and don't know what you are looking at. But I'm glad you posted the video, so that everyone can see how Marshall Turns completely around, his front numbers TO the QB as he tries to stop and jump TO the ball and get it at its highest point (since that is what you do when a ball is tossed up for a JUMP BALL). Of couse he jumped UP :lol:

powderaddict
09-16-2009, 04:44 PM
So throwing into triple coverage, and being completley off target was a good decision?

I refuse to blindly support poor play. Enjoy Ortons nuts.

So with less than 1 minute to go, Orton should...

Methodically march the team downfield? :confused:

Of course he made a desperation pass, in that situation the only thing you can hope for IS a miracle. Pass interference, the WR makes a play, or... a tipped pass.

That right there is about the ONLY time it IS acceptable to throw into triple coverage :laugh:

Zweems56
09-16-2009, 05:13 PM
Post game thoughts on Orton:

He's hilariously blunt and to the point.

When asked "Do you even communicate with him(Jay Cutler)?
His response was merely "No. I don't know him."

After those 5 words, he just stared at the press, as if the ghost of his neckbeard was ready to dole out justice with great vengeance and furious anger.

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 05:22 PM
pretty stupid question

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 05:31 PM
Post game thoughts on Orton:

He's hilariously blunt and to the point.

When asked "Do you even communicate with him(Jay Cutler)?
His response was merely "No. I don't know him."

After those 5 words, he just stared at the press, as if the ghost of his neckbeard was ready to dole out justice with great vengeance and furious anger.

if he was still sporting that neckbeard he could have smote them with a fiery gaze !:laugh:

broncofaninfla
09-16-2009, 05:32 PM
uhhh..... minnesota runs all over everybody ! i would'nt use that as an accurate gauge.;)
but we do have a ways to go before anyone will call us an offensive powerhouse !

We used to run all over everybody too and it wasn't that long ago. Not employing the zone blocking scheme didn't work last week, lets see if it does this week.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 05:33 PM
Top... you see marshall TURNING AROUND. You see his FRONT numbers FACING the QB as he's jumping BACK AN UP to the ball. THat is NOT a ball that was thrown deep enough to lead him.

You can deny it. .. you can jump and defend it alll you want. Again, I'm not criticizing the throw and saying it should have been better. .. I'm not complaining that the throw WOULD have been completed had it been thrown better..... but I'm calling a spade a spade and saying that the ball was thrown SHORT for a fly rout, and that is what Marshall was running... "all Go" I believe is the call. All GOOOOOO..... but Marshall has to TURN around and try to Jump BACK TO THE BALL because it was a short throw that did NOT lead him.

I'm sorry you are unable to tell the difference and don't know what you are looking at. But I'm glad you posted the video, so that everyone can see how Marshall Turns completely around, his front numbers TO the QB as he tries to stop and jump TO the ball and get it at its highest point (since that is what you do when a ball is tossed up for a JUMP BALL). Of couse he jumped UP :lol:

I wish you would spend your time discussing issues rather than trying to
spin and twist my words. But I realize that, were you to do that, you just
would not be Ravage anymore.

Anyway, I said it was a pretty good throw. It could have been better, and
it could have been worse. But it was right on the money, far as it was
intended to go. That was NOT a fly route. That is where the play was
intended to go, right at the sideline. It was 2nd and 10, not a case for a
home run swing.

The assumption is that the defense would be playing deep . . . deeper than
they were, had the Bengals been defending it properly. The other CB and
the safety were waaayyy out of position. Even at that, neither the other
CB nor the safety had a chance at the ball. They were still too far away.
That is obvious on the video.

Had Hall not been able to tip the ball, it would have gone right into Marshall's
hands. I have no criticism whatsoever of that throw. I have more criticism
of the Bengal's defense. It was a pathetic breakdown. Which was fortunate
for the Broncos, of course.

Rav, if you want to see perfect passes from QBs, then I suggest you buy a
good video game. NFL QBs do not pass perfectly, whether they are Tom
Brady or Trent Dilfer. Receivers have to adjust all the time. There is just
something human about a QB, you know?

Nope, that was a pretty good throw. And a pretty good decision since both
Marshall and Stokley were covered. If Orton had to throw to one, Marshall
is more likely to win the jump ball. I just have no problems with it, especially
after reviewing the video.

Oh yes . . . :coffee:

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
09-16-2009, 05:43 PM
Following from Vic Lombardi on Twitter

my defense of Kyle Orton tonight at 10pm...after watching gametape, he was much better than I thought

I listened to Vic last night, and he was basically apologizing for being so critical of Kyle after the game. He used a telestrator to show things that Kyle did very good, and Vic said after the game he gave Kyle a C, but after reviewing the gametape, he changed it to a B

ALSO

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/John.Elway.sports.2.1185724.html

Elway Thinks Orton Will Be Better As Time Goes On

DENVER (CBS4) - Unlike some Broncos fans, John Elway seems to have no concerns about whether Kyle Orton is the man for the job for the Broncos this season. See what he had to say about the Broncos win over the Bengals on Sunday.

On Kyle Orton

"I think he's getting better," said Elway. "Obviously I think his finger is bothering him and I think offensively it doesn't look like everything is clicking for him yet."

"You know that they have the talent offensively to be a good team. I just think that is hasn't really clicked with everybody yet."

"You can spend all the time in the world you want in the off-season going over a new offense, trying to get it down mentally, but until you get into the games and get under the fire it's tough to react to it and really feel comfortable with that offense."

"Kyle's been in there before. He'll be perfect in this offense as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with it."

"I still think he's thinking about what's going on, where people are going to be, trying to trust people downfield. And when you're doing that it makes it more difficult to trust what you're doing within the pocket and it takes some of that reaction time away because you're thinking a little bit."

TXBRONC
09-16-2009, 05:44 PM
Re-read my post. I watched that video.. THANK YOU.. .. because it shows a SHORT pass. They JUMP.. because thats how you GET TO THE BALL BEFORE THE OTHER GUY DOES!! They came BACK to the ball... and JUMPED to knock it down. Marshall practicallly stops and TURNS around, and JUMPS because the pass is short. Do you see how Marshalls FRONT numbers are facing the QB as he's jumping for the ball??? You can't turn around and jump BACK for the pass if he was being led. IT was short, but that doesn't mean its an insult to the QB. No one was expecting him to complete that pass anyway.... period.

SHORT in meaning it wasn't long enough to go OVER The receiver and LEAD him...I have NOOOOOOO friggin Idea why you want to tell me it goes 33 yrds in the air as proof that it wasn't short. :confused:

If I've done this right this actually gives a better view of play when the ball actually in Marshall's area. There are three defenders around Marshal which doesn't include Dahani Jones.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d812ac5e7/NFL-Weekly-Countdown-3-Denver-s-Dramatic-Win

topscribe
09-16-2009, 05:50 PM
If I've done this right this actually gives a better view of play when the ball actually in Marshall's area. There are three defenders around Marshal which doesn't include Dahani Jones.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d812ac5e7/NFL-Weekly-Countdown-3-Denver-s-Dramatic-Win

It's the same thing, basically. The only difference is that Stokley's CB was
four yards away, not the six I mentioned before. Nonetheless, it remains that
the only player on the field who could have actually caught the ball, had Hall
not deflected it, was Marshall. The others simply were too far away. That is
what is meant by throwing into a window.

-----

TXBRONC
09-16-2009, 05:55 PM
It's the same thing, basically. The only difference is that Stokley's CB was
four yards away, not the six I mentioned before. Nonetheless, it remains that
the only player on the field who could have actually caught the ball, had Hall
not deflected it, was Marshall. The others simply were too far away. That is
what is meant by throwing into a window.

-----

According Orton's own words he's was trying to make it a jump ball so that Marshall could go up make a play. In other words that not throwing it into a window.

Zweems56
09-16-2009, 05:56 PM
In my opinion, Leon Hall makes a play that 95% of cornerbacks in the league won't make right there. He showed amazing hops, and hits the ball at his highest point. A fraction of a second earlier or later, and Marshall catches that ball unhindered. I don't think we would have made it far enough to kick a fieldgoal in the time alotted with only one Timeout if he HAD caught it, and if Hall HADN'T made that play, but that's not really the point of the discussion. I don't have a problem with that throw either, because Leon Hall made and amazing play on the ball to even touch it. Marshall was separated enough, and the ball was in just the right position to hit him in the chest, had leon hall not made an amazing play on the ball.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 05:59 PM
In my opinion, Leon Hall makes a play that 95% of cornerbacks in the league won't make right there. He showed amazing hops, and hits the ball at his highest point. A fraction of a second earlier or later, and Marshall catches that ball unhindered. I don't think we would have made it far enough to kick a fieldgoal in the time alotted with only one Timeout if he HAD caught it, and if Hall HADN'T made that play, but that's not really the point of the discussion. I don't have a problem with that throw either, because Leon Hall made and amazing play on the ball to even touch it. Marshall was separated enough, and the ball was in just the right position to hit him in the chest, had leon hall not made an amazing play on the ball.

Well, maybe not in the chest. Marshall was jumping to get it, verifying what
TX just suggested. Nonetheless, it was a catchable ball, other than the
great play by Hall, as you mentioned . . .

-----

LRtagger
09-16-2009, 06:00 PM
Top... you see marshall TURNING AROUND. You see his FRONT numbers FACING the QB as he's jumping BACK AN UP to the ball. THat is NOT a ball that was thrown deep enough to lead him.

You can deny it. .. you can jump and defend it alll you want. Again, I'm not criticizing the throw and saying it should have been better. .. I'm not complaining that the throw WOULD have been completed had it been thrown better..... but I'm calling a spade a spade and saying that the ball was thrown SHORT for a fly rout, and that is what Marshall was running... "all Go" I believe is the call. All GOOOOOO..... but Marshall has to TURN around and try to Jump BACK TO THE BALL because it was a short throw that did NOT lead him.

I'm sorry you are unable to tell the difference and don't know what you are looking at. But I'm glad you posted the video, so that everyone can see how Marshall Turns completely around, his front numbers TO the QB as he tries to stop and jump TO the ball and get it at its highest point (since that is what you do when a ball is tossed up for a JUMP BALL). Of couse he jumped UP :lol:

Who the heck cares?? QBs underthrow deep balls all the time.

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 06:02 PM
If I've done this right this actually gives a better view of play when the ball actually in Marshall's area. There are three defenders around Marshal which doesn't include Dahani Jones.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d812ac5e7/NFL-Weekly-Countdown-3-Denver-s-Dramatic-Win

well after looking at that angle its appears that the pass came out wobly (possibly the glove had something to do with it....not making excuse but he has never played with a glove)and looked as if it would have been perfectly placed had it not been tipped,brandon tuned to catch it as it looked like he planned it that way.
we would have had to use our t.o. maybe a quick out sideline pass and a long fg with 1-2 ticks left. or maybe brandon could have bulled his way out of bounds and saved the t.o. for a shot at the middle.
either way it was'nt a bad pass. maybe undeserving of the longest game winning td in the final minute of any game in history.....but i'll take it!:salute:

Zweems56
09-16-2009, 06:04 PM
Well, maybe not in the chest. Marshall was jumping to get it. Nonetheless, it
was a catchable ball, other than the great play by Hall, as you mentioned . . .

-----

I'm not so sure about that. Before Hall tips that ball, Marshall is still on his feet, twisting around to catch it almost as if it was going to hit him in stride. I just did a frame by frame watch of the video, and its only after the tip that marshall really turns around 180 degrees and starts to backpedal and jump. I'm going to have to assume that the reason for the awkwardness of his attempt to catch the ball was because of what a football looks like when you're looking it in, and a defender tips it away. Everyone has seen receivers look in a ball, and a defender makes the slightest tip, and it hits the receiver right in the chest and he drops it.... because he was expecting it somewhere else and had already made that adjustment with his body. To me, thats what it looked like Marshall was experiencing... trying to go from where he was going to catch it easily to the new adjustment of the ball position. Obviously it was nowhere near where he could possibly go to catch it, but that's really irrelevant. Anyway, thats how I interpreted his backpedaling and leaping.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-16-2009, 06:11 PM
I just listened again to Kyle's interview after the game. He really did not get into all that much detail in regards to that play.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/ under video & audio

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 06:15 PM
Who the heck cares?? QBs underthrow deep balls all the time.

apparently Top.. since he keeps saying it wasn't. I said it didn't matter...but he's theone taking offense to the fact it was an underthrown ball. As I said.. not like I expected him to complete it. But lets be honest and call it what it is.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 06:22 PM
apparently Top.. since he keeps saying it wasn't. I said it didn't matter...but he's theone taking offense to the fact it was an underthrown ball. As I said.. not like I expected him to complete it. But lets be honest and call it what it is.

No offense taken. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

But now we have had a few others who have studied the video and posted
similar opinions to mine. It's just whether or not you want to view it
objectively, I guess. :whoknows:

-----

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 06:28 PM
But lets be honest and call it what it is.

and what it is......is.....AWESOME !:beer:

Ravage!!!
09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
:lol: :lol: I'm supposed to think you observed it objectively?? :lol:

I dont' think you know what underthown is. Underthrown doesn't mean the ball wouldn't ahve reached him if he stopped :lol: It means it wouldn't have led him. Considering he had to slow up, nearly stop... TURN around.. and jump BACK to the ball in order to try to get to it before the defender did (which is WHY a sprinting WR would Jump UP for a ball.. you don't jump UP for a ball that is leading you)... if its not underthown

I realize that you have tried to defend this point of view so much now that ou can't turn back... But you know you are wrong and you are just stuck. I get it. But saying that "if the defender didn't knock down the ball the pass was catchable" is just embarrasing yourself. That has nothing to do with it being an underthrown pass.

Again.. I don't even know why you are arguing that point. It was underthrown, but so what? IT was underthrown but it doesn't matter. IT was an underthrown ball but its not like anyone thinks it would have been better/caught if it wasn't. I dont' give a rats-ass that it was underthrown, but I think its HILARIOUS that you are on SUCH a defense of Orton that you can't even admit something as simple as this. Its funny to the point of hilariously sad.

I guess, it just shows me top...that you aren't ever going to look at things objectively and will purely defend anything against Orton even if it means continuing to post a perspective that you knwo you are wrong on.. simply so you won't "give in."

Either way :lol: no matter.

Day1BroncoFan
09-16-2009, 06:34 PM
and what it is......is.....AWESOME !:beer:

That and game winning.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 06:39 PM
:lol: :lol: I'm supposed to think you observed it objectively?? :lol:

I dont' think you know what underthown is. Underthrown doesn't mean the ball wouldn't ahve reached him if he stopped :lol: It means it wouldn't have led him. Considering he had to slow up, nearly stop... TURN around.. and jump BACK to the ball in order to try to get to it before the defender did (which is WHY a sprinting WR would Jump UP for a ball.. you don't jump UP for a ball that is leading you)... if its not underthown

I realize that you have tried to defend this point of view so much now that ou can't turn back... But you know you are wrong and you are just stuck. I get it. But saying that "if the defender didn't knock down the ball the pass was catchable" is just embarrasing yourself. That has nothing to do with it being an underthrown pass.

Again.. I don't even know why you are arguing that point. It was underthrown, but so what? IT was underthrown but it doesn't matter. IT was an underthrown ball but its not like anyone thinks it would have been better/caught if it wasn't. I dont' give a rats-ass that it was underthrown, but I think its HILARIOUS that you are on SUCH a defense of Orton that you can't even admit something as simple as this. Its funny to the point of hilariously sad.

I guess, it just shows me top...that you aren't ever going to look at things objectively and will purely defend anything against Orton even if it means continuing to post a perspective that you knwo you are wrong on.. simply so you won't "give in."

Either way :lol: no matter.

You don't know why I'm arguing the point.

Do you know why you are arguing the point? :lol:

You're always good for a laugh, Rav. Enough of this . . . :wave:

-----

WARHORSE
09-16-2009, 06:50 PM
A comment on the pass: Other than a TREMENDOUS leap by the defender to one arm tip the ball, the pass was almost perfectly throw between the three defenders...............which is where you want to put it. If Orton had lead Brandon a hair too much, the ball would have been picked by the safety.


Plainly, pro QBs routinely underthrow WRs because of where the positioning of defenders are, and the WR knows when the ball is coming......not the defender.


The pass was almost perfect, but it was decent coverage, and I see no fault on Orton for that pass.

T.K.O.
09-16-2009, 06:50 PM
what makes anyone think the play was'nt designed to have brandon turn around?
alot of sideline passes are intended that way.....yes?
the whole design of the play was to get some yards and get out of bounds
its not uncommon to use a "hook route" in that situation.
but i still think it looked like the ball was going to hit him in stride (even though it was kinda wobbly)
anyway it was the best play ive seen all year and i loved it....LOVED IT !

Denver Native (Carol)
09-16-2009, 06:54 PM
A comment on the pass: Other than a TREMENDOUS leap by the defender to one arm tip the ball, the pass was almost perfectly throw between the three defenders...............which is where you want to put it. If Orton had lead Brandon a hair too much, the ball would have been picked by the safety.


Plainly, pro QBs routinely underthrow WRs because of where the positioning of defenders are, and the WR knows when the ball is coming......not the defender.


The pass was almost perfect, but it was decent coverage, and I see no fault on Orton for that pass.

Great comment - and my feelings on that pass - I don't care to dissect every detail of it - It is Wednesday, and the last time I checked - THE BRONCOS WON THE GAME

LRtagger
09-16-2009, 08:45 PM
apparently Top.. since he keeps saying it wasn't. I said it didn't matter...but he's theone taking offense to the fact it was an underthrown ball. As I said.. not like I expected him to complete it.

Is that why you have been arguing back and forth about it since page 7? Even the best QB is not going to hit every receiver directly in the numbers in stride on every throw...yet somehow people expect Kyle to do so.

Earlier in the game he threw a PERFECT long pass to Marshall who dropped the ball without really even being contested by the CB. He hit him perfectly in stride in really the only spot that Brandon could have caught the ball and the CB couldn't have. Yet here are Broncos fans arguing for pages on end about a pass that Kyle may have underthrown by a yard (maybe two). A pass that won the game for us.

No one is going to argue that we won the game because of a spectacular throw by Kyle. But seriously, what is the point of trying to convince everyone that he may have slightly underthrown the ball? Seriously?? I just don't get it. What exactly are you trying to prove?

By my judgement you are just trying to rob Orton of any positivity from the WIN. I mean, honestly...I hate bringing Jay up in these types of conversations...but if Jay throws that ball Sunday there is not a single word spoken about it being an underthrown ball. The forum would be going nuts about what an awesome play it was....because it WAS an awesome play regardless of who threw the ball.


But lets be honest and call it what it is.

OK, it was a game winning TD. The end.

Lonestar
09-16-2009, 09:01 PM
In my opinion, Leon Hall makes a play that 95% of cornerbacks in the league won't make right there. He showed amazing hops, and hits the ball at his highest point. A fraction of a second earlier or later, and Marshall catches that ball unhindered. I don't think we would have made it far enough to kick a fieldgoal in the time alotted with only one Timeout if he HAD caught it, and if Hall HADN'T made that play, but that's not really the point of the discussion. I don't have a problem with that throw either, because Leon Hall made and amazing play on the ball to even touch it. Marshall was separated enough, and the ball was in just the right position to hit him in the chest, had leon hall not made an amazing play on the ball.

good post


I just listened again to Kyle's interview after the game. He really did not get into all that much detail in regards to that play.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/ under video & audio

but if you listen to Stokely interview it was a go route with the intent to catch and get out of bounds If at all possible in order to kick the field goal IF not out of bounds they wanted to call the last TO and try another sideline pass if it was not close enough for Prater..




what makes anyone think the play was'nt designed to have brandon turn around?
alot of sideline passes are intended that way.....yes?
the whole design of the play was to get some yards and get out of bounds
its not uncommon to use a "hook route" in that situation.
but i still think it looked like the ball was going to hit him in stride (even though it was kinda wobbly)
anyway it was the best play ive seen all year and i loved it....LOVED IT !


exactly

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/John.Elway.sports.2.1185724.html

Elway Thinks Orton Will Be Better As Time Goes On

DENVER (CBS4) - Unlike some Broncos fans, John Elway seems to have no concerns about whether Kyle Orton is the man for the job for the Broncos this season. See what he had to say about the Broncos win over the Bengals on Sunday.

On Kyle Orton

"I think he's getting better," said Elway. "Obviously I think his finger is bothering him and I think offensively it doesn't look like everything is clicking for him yet."

"You know that they have the talent offensively to be a good team. I just think that is hasn't really clicked with everybody yet."
"You can spend all the time in the world you want in the off-season going over a new offense, trying to get it down mentally, but until you get into the games and get under the fire it's tough to react to it and really feel comfortable with that offense."
"Kyle's been in there before. He'll be perfect in this offense as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with it."

"I still think he's thinking about what's going on, where people are going to be, trying to trust people downfield. And when you're doing that it makes it more difficult to trust what you're doing within the pocket and it takes some of that reaction time away because you're thinking a little bit."

Now not sure why we are even debating Orton at this point if the GOAT says it I for one will believe it.. TILL proven over wise..

Tned
09-16-2009, 09:51 PM
Now not sure why we are even debating Orton at this point if the GOAT says it I for one will believe it.. TILL proven over wise..

He said basically the same thing about Griese, Plummer and Cutler. I wouldn't be surprised if he said it about Brister too, but I don't remember.

Elway wears Orange colored glasses, just like us.

smith49
09-16-2009, 09:52 PM
Orton shouted to Stokes in the lockeroom: "Did Peyton Manning ever throw you a pass like that?" Everyone laughed.

I believe that was a pretty good Cincy defense that we just beat. I think theyre better than last year for sure. They were filling the gaps perfectly all game pretty much. But Im also sure they werent afraid of Orton beating them up top.

I think Orton had some nerves, and who wouldnt being in the situation hes in following a kid that just threw for 4500 yards.

I hope he settles down..............but was I the only one who thought of that preseason game I went to against Arizona? During the game, I kept thinking.........Brandstater looked a lot more poised and delivered the ball well................he should be playing.


Anyone else have those thoughts?

http://broncosfreaks.com/forums/images/smilies/alcoholic.gif


I like Kyle.

But I hated watching him play.

Everytime he dropped back I held my breath.

I dont like watching Broncos football like that. :drinking:

Guess I better get used to it huh?



i gotta tell ya WARHORSE, i have had that same thought. the place that i work here in utah is packed full of bronco fans and i have been telling them all that branstater is going to be our next stud. i hop im not up in the night on this, but i too think he should be in there. who knows, maybe we will see him out there soon. i dont hate orton, but he just seems to dink and dunk a little to often. its like he is scared.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 09:58 PM
He said basically the same thing about Griese, Plummer and Cutler. I wouldn't be surprised if he said it about Brister too, but I don't remember.

Elway wears Orange colored glasses, just like us.

I believe Elway made a pretty insightful observation. He said Orton seems a
bit mechanical right now, as if he is still thinking. He said it takes a while to
acclimate to a new system, and it may take a little while to get where he is
completely comfortable.

BTW, if he was complimentary of Griese and Plummer, he was right about
both. You remember Griese topped the NFL in passer rating one year, and
was selected as a Pro Bowl alternate. Madden even had Griese as the best
of his draft class that year, even though he was a third rounder. No one
predicted his meltdown.

Plummer had winning seasons every year he was here, and is the last QB to
take the Broncos to the playoffs.

So that only reinforces my regard for his evaluation of Orton . . .

-----

Tned
09-16-2009, 10:06 PM
I believe Elway made a pretty insightful observation. He said Orton seems a
bit mechanical right now, as if he is still thinking. He said it takes a while to
acclimate to a new system, and it may take a little while to get where he is
completely comfortable.

BTW, if he was complimentary of Griese and Plummer, he was right about
both. You remember Griese topped the NFL in passer rating one year, and
was selected as a Pro Bowl alternate. Madden even had Griese as the best
of his draft class that year, even though he was a third rounder. No one
predicted his meltdown.

Plummer had winning seasons every year he was here, and is the last QB to
take the Broncos to the playoffs.

So that only reinforces my regard for his evaluation of Orton . . .

-----

I'm not disagreeing with his assessment, only it being used to solidify the Cutler sucked - Orton is great, the debate is over, line of reasoning.

topscribe
09-16-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm not disagreeing with his assessment, only it being used to solidify the Cutler sucked - Orton is great, the debate is over, line of reasoning.

Actually, Elway said much the same thing about Cutler in Chicago. In fact, it
was almost as if he had it written down and used the same script for both. :lol:

Well, he did mention Cutler's arm . . .

-----

Tned
09-17-2009, 07:07 AM
Actually, Elway said much the same thing about Cutler in Chicago. In fact, it
was almost as if he had it written down and used the same script for both. :lol:

Well, he did mention Cutler's arm . . .

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Not sure if you have heard, but Cutler's arm is stronger than Elway's, even in his prime... ;) :laugh:

Lonestar
09-17-2009, 09:19 AM
I'm not disagreeing with his assessment, only it being used to solidify the Cutler sucked - Orton is great, the debate is over, line of reasoning.

I don't know of anyone that has used that line of reasoning. That KO is great an jay sucked.

I do know a lot of folks that have said KO sucks and Jay is great.

However most are saying that that the Offense leaves a lot to be desired. And most believe it is a work in progress.

John said and rightly so that KO is learning the system live fire as no amount of learning the playbook or in practice is like regular season SPEED.

Not only is KO stilling thinking about what is going on so is most of the O.

When they start being in auotmatic. Then things will be game speed.

Sent via Blackberry.

claymore
09-17-2009, 10:18 AM
I don't know of anyone that has used that line of reasoning. That KO is great an jay sucked.

I do know a lot of folks that have said KO sucks and Jay is great.

However most are saying that that the Offense leaves a lot to be desired. And most believe it is a work in progress.

John said and rightly so that KO is learning the system live fire as no amount of learning the playbook or in practice is like regular season SPEED.

Not only is KO stilling thinking about what is going on so is most of the O.

When they start being in auotmatic. Then things will be game speed.

Sent via Blackberry.

If thats not the case, I hope the leash is short.