John Fox contract extension with Broncos on John Elway's to-do list

[Denver Native (Carol)]

INDIANAPOLIS — John Fox already has gone through one lame-duck season as an NFL head coach.

The results were predictable. His Carolina Panthers went 2-14 in 2010. When his contract expired after that season, Fox was fired.

Two weeks later, Fox became the coach of the Broncos. So maybe his lame-duck season with Carolina wasn't so terrible.

He has gone 34-14, with three AFC West titles and one Super Bowl berth, in his three seasons with the Broncos. Fox has one year left on his contract. With Fox's agent, Bob Lamonte, at the NFL scouting combine and Broncos general manager John Elway arriving Friday, the defending AFC champions' plan is to open discussions about replacing Fox's lame-duck status with an authority-boosting contract extension.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_25195928/john-fox-contract-extension-broncos-john-elway

[chazoe60]

Has Fox thrown a challenge flag yet?







Works every time. :laugh:

[Mike]

Extending Fox now is a mistake.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Extending Fox now is a mistake.

Why? I can't see any reason not to extend him.

[OrangeHoof]

Extending Fox now is a mistake.

The Fox-haters always seem stumped when you ask them for a realistic better option that's available. Folks like Dungy are not coming here.

[Mike]

Why? I can't see any reason not to extend him.

Fox isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a very good one. Safe, middle of the road. Denver will not be a winning club with Fox after Manning leaves.

As far as who else is there argument. Weigh and evaluate after this season. Maybe Fox will inspire more and be worth an extension. Probably won't though, so see how this season pans out and go forward to better the team.

[claymore]

Fox isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a very good one. Safe, middle of the road. Denver will not be a winning club with Fox after Manning leaves.

As far as who else is there argument. Weigh and evaluate after this season. Maybe Fox will inspire more and be worth an extension. Probably won't though, so see how this season pans out and go forward to better the team.

Id give him a lucrative extension that was contingent on winning the SB. Manning will get us to the playoffs. We need a playoff coach. What I have seen of the Broncos in the playoffs under Fox is unacceptable.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Fox isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a very good one. Safe, middle of the road. Denver will not be a winning club with Fox after Manning leaves.

As far as who else is there argument. Weigh and evaluate after this season. Maybe Fox will inspire more and be worth an extension. Probably won't though, so see how this season pans out and go forward to better the team.

When Manning leaves, it is not Fox's responsibility as to how the next QB plays. That is the responsibility of the QB's coach, and I would assume also Gase's responsibility. If OZ will truly be the Broncos' next QB, Elway made the decision to draft him.

[Ravage!!!]

We seem to have won with friggin TEBOW under Fox. You can't give a guy that kind of handicap than then COMPLAIN when he gets you to the Super Bowl just 2 years later. BTW, "Dungy" was able to take Manning to just 1 super Bowl. I'm GLAD Tony Dungy isn't coming to Denver.

Fox has done a pretty DAMNED good job while here. I'm hoping we extend him.

[Mike]

When Manning leaves, it is not Fox's responsibility as to how the next QB plays. That is the responsibility of the QB's coach, and I would assume also Gase's responsibility. If OZ will truly be the Broncos' next QB, Elway made the decision to draft him.

I appreciate your commitment to the establishment and always supporting the Broncos FO. I will just leave it there.


We seem to have won with friggin TEBOW under Fox. You can't give a guy that kind of handicap than then COMPLAIN when he gets you to the Super Bowl just 2 years later. BTW, "Dungy" was able to take Manning to just 1 super Bowl. I'm GLAD Tony Dungy isn't coming to Denver.

Fox has done a pretty DAMNED good job while here. I'm hoping we extend him.

1) He didn't want Tebow to start. He was content to stick with Orton.
2) Denver backed into the playoffs in a weak division.

Denver has been a consistently undisciplined and sloppy team under Fox. Manning is good enough to overcome that though.

[slim]

We seem to have won with friggin TEBOW under Fox. You can't give a guy that kind of handicap than then COMPLAIN when he gets you to the Super Bowl just 2 years later. BTW, "Dungy" was able to take Manning to just 1 super Bowl. I'm GLAD Tony Dungy isn't coming to Denver.

Fox has done a pretty DAMNED good job while here. I'm hoping we extend him.


You have consistently told us that the only reason we won that year was because of luck and a series of miracles. Now you want to say it was because of great coaching? :lol:

[RebelRocker]

Why? I can't see any reason not to extend him.

Because he has proven multiple times that he chokes when it matters most. When you're team, a team that had a record setting offense ALL YEAR, suddenly craps its pants in the most important game of the year, I put a lot of that on the coaching and his attitude towards the game. I guess we should all be content with John "not too shabby" Fox.

Did you also know that EVERY HC Manning has had in his career has been to atleast a conference championship games and has had 12+ win seasons WITH Manning? Those stats are hollow. It's sickening that a large portion of our fanbase is content with just getting to the super bowl, only to get our asses kicked. What a shame.

[Lancane]

Why? I can't see any reason not to extend him.

It's simple Carol, he hasn't proven himself. I know that sounds funny with the accolades the Denver Broncos have attained under this regime, but it remains true. In his first season the Broncos had won the west, because the AFC West was so despicably weak and made the playoffs due to that fact as well. We were barely an 8-8 team who didn't deserve to be in the playoffs and what little success we had came at the hands of Tebow's legs and McCoy's genius. Since then the Broncos have won the AFC West two more times, with two different offensive coordinators (where the strength of this team lies) going 13-3 in the regular season and the one every changing factor could be Peyton Manning (which Fox has little to do with if we're being honest). We've also gone 3-3 in the playoffs under this regime which includes the biggest blowout loss in a Super Bowl in the past two decades. Our defense, the reason we targeted a Defensive Minded Coach has gone from 24th to 4th to 22nd during that span. All this points to the same things that marred his time in Carolina, where in 9 seasons he only had three seasons above the .500 mark, his teams on average were worse then that. And he went to the Super Bowl in his second year in Carolina and never made it back over the next seven seasons.

Denver arguably won more since Manning come here and it would be hard to disprove that Manning is the cause for success and prove Fox is the reason for such. I would be a little more agreeable had Fox went 8-8 with Tebow, 13-3 with Manning and 10-6 with Osweiler and had a post-season record to match those. Who on here actually is short sighted enough to believe Coach Fox is the reason for the past two years success over believing it's due to having the Greatest Cerebral Quarterback and one of the Greatest Quarterbacks of All-Time under center? What success we've truly seen these past few years has come at the hands of Free Agency and previously drafted players from two other regimes.

So yeah, I am iffy as hell about extending Fox who I don't believe has really proven anything. And while I love Elway, he is still young enough at his position in the Front Office to make mistakes, so the whole argument about him knowing what he's doing is immature and debatable.

[Ravage!!!]

You have consistently told us that the only reason we won that year was because of luck and a series of miracles. Now you want to say it was because of great coaching? :lol:

It ******* was because of a ton of luck and miracles. But you trying to say that Fox changing the entire offfense around Tebow and that limited offense didn't make a BIG difference?? That's just looking the other way.

This "he hasn't proven himself" is BS. This very thread gives credit to coaches like Dungy and ignores the job that Fox has done. 'he hasn't proven himself?" SERIOUSLY?? That is your reasoning?

So, because we coudln't beat a team that was HUGELY more talented than we are in the 'Hawks....this is how he hasn't proven himself? Because, I'm guessing had he WON the Super Bowl with Manning that wouldn't count as "proving" yourself, either. So he would have to do..what? Win three with just the measley guys like Brady behind center to be considred good? Hasn't he now taken 2 different teams to the Super Bowl? How many other coaches have done that?

I completely disagree with you, Lancane. I think he HAS proven himself, and has proved to be effective despite limitations at QB and limited with injuries.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Rod Mackey ‏@Rod9sports 3m

John Elway doing more than just draft stuff this week. He just told me he's also looking to extend the contract of John Fox.

[Timmy!]

Well.....he's already won as many division titles as shanny did. A 2 or 3 year extension is a good choice IMO.

[Ravage!!!]

I guess the Pittsburgh fans were screaming for Cowher's head before he won his Super Bowl... so I guess it shouldn't surprise me that people are always going to want to fire their HC.

[Lancane]

It ******* was because of a ton of luck and miracles. But you trying to say that Fox changing the entire offfense around Tebow and that limited offense didn't make a BIG difference?? That's just looking the other way.

This "he hasn't proven himself" is BS. This very thread gives credit to coaches like Dungy and ignores the job that Fox has done. 'he hasn't proven himself?" SERIOUSLY?? That is your reasoning?

So, because we coudln't beat a team that was HUGELY more talented than we are in the 'Hawks....this is how he hasn't proven himself? Because, I'm guessing had he WON the Super Bowl with Manning that wouldn't count as "proving" yourself, either. So he would have to do..what? Win three with just the measley guys like Brady behind center to be considred good? Hasn't he now taken 2 different teams to the Super Bowl? How many other coaches have done that?

I completely disagree with you, Lancane. I think he HAS proven himself, and has proved to be effective despite limitations at QB and limited with injuries.

So basically your giving him credit with the success of this team because of the offense which he has not a ****ing thing to do with...got it. I guess Mike McCoy, Adam Gase and Peyton Manning are all overrated, this time it was all Fox.

:doh:

[Ravage!!!]

So basically your giving him credit with the success of this team because of the offense which he has not a ****ing thing to do with...got it. I guess Mike McCoy, Adam Gase and Peyton Manning are all overrated, this time it was all Fox.

:doh:

Uhm...actually.. YOU are the one that wants to give credit to EVERYONE else except the very HC that has been here and won. :doh: THat makes sense. You are saying he "hasn't proved himself"..despite his third AFC West Championship and 60% wins in the playoffs. Not to mention 3 straight playoff appearances... and... this small thing called a Super Bowl.

But I get it. Despite the fact that the great Dungy could only get Manning to 1 Super Bowl in the tenure with being in Indy, and having a LOSING record with Manning in the playoffs.... lets give ALL the credit to EVERYONE else for our 3 years of success while Fox has been our HC. No no.. despite the fact Fox is the 6th Coach in NFL history to take two different teams to a Super Bowl, lets wait ofr him to FINALLY prove himself. But wait, I guess that means he has to take a team to the Super Bowl for the THIRD time, and win it without either Manning or another Elite QB because that would mean HE didn't have anything to do with it.

GOTCHA...

[BroncoWave]

Fox led a team to a Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme as his QB, and came a FG away from winning it. He ain't the problem.

[Pudge]

Because he has proven multiple times that he chokes when it matters most. When you're team, a team that had a record setting offense ALL YEAR, suddenly craps its pants in the most important game of the year, I put a lot of that on the coaching and his attitude towards the game. I guess we should all be content with John "not too shabby" Fox. Did you also know that EVERY HC Manning has had in his career has been to atleast a conference championship games and has had 12+ win seasons WITH Manning? Those stats are hollow. It's sickening that a large portion of our fanbase is content with just getting to the super bowl, only to get our asses kicked. What a shame. changing coaching staffs has worked so well for Cleveland

[Ravage!!!]

It's sickening that a large portion of our fanbase is content with just getting to the super bowl, only to get our asses kicked. What a shame.

Not nearly as sickening to see a small portion of the fanbase that thinks that Super Bowl loss was on the coaches lap. OR, that it makes sense to dismantle a coaching staff that just took us to the Super Bowl despite a TON of injuries. I guess you just happen to see Super Bowl losing coaches lying around available the year after they left.

I wonder if they considered firing Belicheck after losing the SUper Bowl to the Giants when they were 17-0?? :confused: I mean, that is still considered the largest choke job in NFL history.... do you think the thought about firing him? What about the SECOND time they lost to the Giants? Do you realize they haven't won a Super Bowl since Weis left?

I mean, if Lancane is going to give all the credit to our OC's and QB for the success that we've had, and then blame our HC for the Super Bowl loss....wouldn't it make sense to see that Belicheck can't win without Weis? Seems that Belicheck wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the offense in NE (since he was always a defensive mnded coach), yet, has put up some HORRID defenses over the years. Why is it that the GM and Owner in NE hasn't fired Belicheck yet when all things considered, we can see the cross-over similarities? Where did Belicheck prove himself as an HC before Brady?? :confused: Have you seen the poor job of drafting that Belicheck has done (I mention this because apparantly Elway has only drafted ONE elite player in the 3 years since taking over)?

I guess the NE FO, and fan base, is just content with letting Brady taking them to the Super Bowl, and losing withou Weis, all the while ignoring the lame job that Belicheck has doing.

[capt. Jack]

Keep him as long as Manning plays, extend him 2 extra years, 3 years total, then see what happens? 3 years, 3 playoff apperences, not too shabby! :) I wish we were better, but we have to stay on course with these guys.

[Ravage!!!]

Ironically enough, I'm hearing that we can not give Fox ANY credit for the offense because that was basically Gase and Manning's doing, yet blame Fox for the Super Bowl..... when it was the offense that was ABSOLUTELY PUTRID in the Super Bowl and not the defense (which I assume is where Lancane believes Fox spends all his time).

[NightTrainLayne]

This is absurd. The odds of making the team worse are much higher than the odds of somehow improving the team via a coaching change. We are much better off with the stability Fox and his staffing (something he REALLY should be getting a lot of positive credit for) provide.

[Dzone]

The Nuggets fired George Karl after their best season, and now they are getting their ass kicked. Now McGee is out. They spent a fortune on him and he is a bust. Wow. Just few changes can derail or elevate a team.
Im not real crazy about Fox, but he has done a good job. He doesnt do too well with pressure situations, but otherwise he is fine

[dogfish]

This is absurd.

sure is. . . thankfully, JFE is calling the shots, and he knows what he's doing. . .


somebody let me know when dungy, AKA the most overrated coach of all time, gets to a super bowl with jake friggin' delhomme, or wins a playoff game with FFS timmy tebow. . . fox is a damn solid coach. . . elway tried to get the dynamic young guy, but we didn't have the roster to entice harbaugh. . . now we're three years into the program-- makes zero sense to switch now, that's just shooting yourself in the foot. . . playing out the string with fox and manning is what any competent exec would do. . . i would expect JFE to most likely look at a younger, more aggressive guy for the next hire, but you don't change out an engine mid-flight. . .

[luckyseven]

This is absurd. The odds of making the team worse are much higher than the odds of somehow improving the team via a coaching change. We are much better off with the stability Fox and his staffing (something he REALLY should be getting a lot of positive credit for).
It is a rare situation where a new HC does not mean an entire new coaching staff, most likely a change in offense and defense schemes.

At this point that would be really dumb move.

[Mike]

It is a rare situation where a new HC does not mean an entire new coaching staff, most likely a change in offense and defense schemes.

At this point that would be really dumb move.

It would be dumb to do right now. Nobody is suggesting a new HC right now though. I think that they should hold off on the extension until next year and see how the season pans out.

I will trust Elway even if he extends Fox now though. Stability is an important element and I understand the need for it. I will support the team, but will feel that it is a mistake and Denver will be an 8-8 team at best after Manning leaves. If Elway extends Fox two years and Manning plays 2 more years then I think Denver will be a contender for those years, but will not expect a SB win. If Elway extends Fox longer than two years then I don't see it benefiting Denver.

[MOtorboat]

:elefant:

[luckyseven]

It would be dumb to do right now. Nobody is suggesting a new HC right now though. I think that they should hold off on the extension until next year and see how the season pans out.

I will trust Elway even if he extends Fox now though. Stability is an important element and I understand the need for it. I will support the team, but will feel that it is a mistake and Denver will be an 8-8 team at best after Manning leaves. If Elway extends Fox two years and Manning plays 2 more years then I think Denver will be a contender for those years, but will not expect a SB win. If Elway extends Fox longer than two years then I don't see it benefiting Denver.

Good thought.

However who is better than Fox at this point?

While he may be very conservative in his calls, he has a proven record. You have to throw out his last year in Carolina as the openership was clearly dumping contracts of good players, everyone saw the handwriting on the wall it was clearly the last year for anyone with a heart beat, not sure any coach could have been a winner with ownership issues like that.

Myself he is to conservative for me, but the players like and respect the guy. How are you going to replace that?

[Lancane]

Uhm...actually.. YOU are the one that wants to give credit to EVERYONE else except the very HC that has been here and won. :doh: THat makes sense. You are saying he "hasn't proved himself"..despite his third AFC West Championship and 60% wins in the playoffs. Not to mention 3 straight playoff appearances... and... this small thing called a Super Bowl.

Really Rav? Okay, then explain to me what he deserves credit for? Does he implement the game-plans or does his coordinators? Does he call the plays for either side of the ball and what is the success of that unit overall or does his coordinators call the plays? What hand has he had in developing the offense or defense that is so positive that he doesn't have to prove himself? A head coach should be more then a dispassionate figurehead.

And...uhm actually, I'm giving credit to where credit is due Rav. I'm not saying Fox is a bad coach at all, I don't think he's great or awful, and I personally like the man, it's his dispassionate nature that concerns me most. Granted, he's well liked by the players and is considered one of the better coaches in the league due to his current W-L record, however, he doesn't inspire his players the way the Harbaughs, Carroll, McCoy, Kelly, Rivera or even Coughlin does, he is more laid back and lacks that intense fire that inspires players to give their all, which is evident from his teams here and in Carolina.

As to the rest, above I asked you to explain what he deserves credit for, and here is how I see it. He was hired more or less because he was a defensive minded coach, yet that side of the ball literally has been in the bottom ten of the league statistically give one season, the only real claim they have is being able to stop the run, which obviously is not good enough. And he has nothing to do with the offense and that is a fact Rav, it's inarguable, he has always let his offensive coordinators run things on that side. Giving him credit when it's the offense that has caused the win-loss you so credit him for, then I suppose that makes the woes of the defense Steve Antonopolus' fault and not the fault of the Defensive Coordinator, Jack Del Rio or John Fox himself.

We won the AFC the first time due to the weakness of the division that season, usually a .500 record is not good enough to get into the playoffs let alone win the division. You want to credit him? Fine, but you can not prove he is the reason for the success. As for the previous two AFC West Championships, well did we win them due to the defensive side of the ball or the offensive side, which he has no hand in? And his playoff record includes the Super Bowl (it always includes the Super Bowl), where he is 50-50 not 60% as you so claim. Two playoff appearances were earned, do you truly believe that his defense or leadership is the defacto reason for such? Or the fact that Manning pretty much led us there?


But I get it. Despite the fact that the great Dungy could only get Manning to 1 Super Bowl in the tenure with being in Indy, and having a LOSING record with Manning in the playoffs.... lets give ALL the credit to EVERYONE else for our 3 years of success while Fox has been our HC. No no.. despite the fact Fox is the 6th Coach in NFL history to take two different teams to a Super Bowl, lets wait for him to FINALLY prove himself. But wait, I guess that means he has to take a team to the Super Bowl for the THIRD time, and win it without either Manning or another Elite QB because that would mean HE didn't have anything to do with it.

Dungy quite literally always left everything on Manning shoulders and rode his coattails to success, how many sub-par defenses or questionable offensive lines did Manning have during those years under Dungy? It's no damn wonder he only got their only once. Shanahan led us to two Super Bowl Championships but without Elway and talent at other positions showed his true capability and even then with lackluster talent got us to an AFC Championship once again. This team has **** the bed in three major games the Divisional Round against New England with Tebow, the Divisional Round the following year against Baltimore and then in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks. Now I understand one bad game in regards to the players letting down or down right losing out to a better team, but effort is usually involved, the team doesn't fold and Fox's teams have a history of choking in the post-season and despite what you may think about winning or losing the AFC West, he's only ever won a Conference Championship twice in his career, when both teams were unarguably built by the regimes before his tenure and early on in those tenures when talent is latent from those former regimes and not by his hand.

Do you believe we'd have been 13-3 in back to back seasons without Manning? Do you really believe that with Tebow under center that we'd have won the AFC West three times in a row, especially give the resurgence of the Chargers and Chiefs? The defense hasn't been good enough to be the winning factor, that first season was thanks to Tebow's legs and McCoy's brilliance, the second was due to Manning's ability and McCoy's joint cooperation in developing a capable offense and even more this past year with Gase and Manning basically re-tuned that offense to perfection – what did Fox have to do with it?

According to you that he has proven himself, what does it matter that he has Peyton Manning and that the two offensive coordinators aforementioned are two of the hottest young coaches in league circles. What does it matter that the core of his team was built by others and that Elway got him arguably the Greatest Cerebral Quarterback to play the game under center who truly acts more like Offensive Coordinator/Quarterback then simply a Quarterback, elite or not who basically changed the culture of the team and leads the unit that is cause for the win-losses we've so enjoyed as fans. So what that Fox in the post-season overall is 8-6 in his career and has tendencies to **** the bed in the biggest games of all.

I wish that wasn't so, I would prefer to have another decade without having to switch to a different regime. But there is a pattern when it comes to Coach Fox and that is without the right personnel his teams always fall short and not simply because they play better teams, but because they let themselves lose.

All I want is him to prove his worth, when the chips are down and the overall success not be due to the offense but in part due to all phases and on both sides of the ball. What if we extend him and what he's done in the past shows itself true in the coming years? Another five or six season run of .500 or worse? Another firing and another complete rebuild? I was hoping that the team would wait till after 2014, when his schedule is the hardest it's been in years against teams that literally are in contention year in and year out and in a division that is getting better each year, San Diego and Kansas City will be better in most peoples opinions. If the defense improves and Denver only wins 10 games and makes the playoffs and win at least a game or two then I would be beating the drum to extend his contract, no matter what happens with Manning because I don't feel this team can win more then 9 games at best next season with their schedule. And I don't feel he can be as successful without Manning much like Shanahan wasn't successful without Elway. You believe differently and that is your perogative. We don't see eye to eye on the matter, but I don't believe you can say he proved it when Manning is his quarterback, the one quarterback who I believe has proven his success is not do to his coaches.

[Slick]

Instill a litttle more discipline and get him help with the challenges. If we make it to the superbowl again next year I hope he does the exact opposite of what he did before this years game. Denver looked totally unprepared for that game.

[luckyseven]

Really Rav? Okay, then explain to me what he deserves credit for? Does he implement the game-plans or does his coordinators? Does he call the plays for either side of the ball and what is the success of that unit overall or does his coordinators call the plays? What hand has he had in developing the offense or defense that is so positive that he doesn't have to prove himself? A head coach should be more then a dispassionate figurehead.

And...uhm actually, I'm giving credit to where credit is due Rav. I'm not saying Fox is a bad coach at all, I don't think he's great or awful, and I personally like the man, it's his dispassionate nature that concerns me most. Granted, he's well liked by the players and is considered one of the better coaches in the league due to his current W-L record, however, he doesn't inspire his players the way the Harbaughs, Carroll, McCoy, Kelly, Rivera or even Coughlin does, he is more laid back and lacks that intense fire that inspires players to give their all, which is evident from his teams here and in Carolina.

As to the rest, above I asked you to explain what he deserves credit for, and here is how I see it. He was hired more or less because he was a defensive minded coach, yet that side of the ball literally has been in the bottom ten of the league statistically give one season, the only real claim they have is being able to stop the run, which obviously is not good enough. And he has nothing to do with the offense and that is a fact Rav, it's inarguable, he has always let his offensive coordinators run things on that side. Giving him credit when it's the offense that has caused the win-loss you so credit him for, then I suppose that makes the woes of the defense Steve Antonopolus' fault and not the fault of the Defensive Coordinator, Jack Del Rio or John Fox himself.

We won the AFC the first time due to the weakness of the division that season, usually a .500 record is not good enough to get into the playoffs let alone win the division. You want to credit him? Fine, but you can not prove he is the reason for the success. As for the previous two AFC West Championships, well did we win them due to the defensive side of the ball or the offensive side, which he has no hand in? And his playoff record includes the Super Bowl (it always includes the Super Bowl), where he is 50-50 not 60% as you so claim. Two playoff appearances were earned, do you truly believe that his defense or leadership is the defacto reason for such? Or the fact that Manning pretty much led us there?



Dungy quite literally always left everything on Manning shoulders and rode his coattails to success, how many sub-par defenses or questionable offensive lines did Manning have during those years under Dungy? It's no damn wonder he only got their only once. Shanahan led us to two Super Bowl Championships but without Elway and talent at other positions showed his true capability and even then with lackluster talent got us to an AFC Championship once again. This team has **** the bed in three major games the Divisional Round against New England with Tebow, the Divisional Round the following year against Baltimore and then in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks. Now I understand one bad game in regards to the players letting down or down right losing out to a better team, but effort is usually involved, the team doesn't fold and Fox's teams have a history of choking in the post-season and despite what you may think about winning or losing the AFC West, he's only ever won a Conference Championship twice in his career, when both teams were unarguably built by the regimes before his tenure and early on in those tenures when talent is latent from those former regimes and not by his hand.

Do you believe we'd have been 13-3 in back to back seasons without Manning? Do you really believe that with Tebow under center that we'd have won the AFC West three times in a row, especially give the resurgence of the Chargers and Chiefs? The defense hasn't been good enough to be the winning factor, that first season was thanks to Tebow's legs and McCoy's brilliance, the second was due to Manning's ability and McCoy's joint cooperation in developing a capable offense and even more this past year with Gase and Manning basically re-tuned that offense to perfection – what did Fox have to do with it?

According to you that he has proven himself, what does it matter that he has Peyton Manning and that the two offensive coordinators aforementioned are two of the hottest young coaches in league circles. What does it matter that the core of his team was built by others and that Elway got him arguably the Greatest Cerebral Quarterback to play the game under center who truly acts more like Offensive Coordinator/Quarterback then simply a Quarterback, elite or not who basically changed the culture of the team and leads the unit that is cause for the win-losses we've so enjoyed as fans. So what that Fox in the post-season overall is 8-6 in his career and has tendencies to **** the bed in the biggest games of all.

I wish that wasn't so, I would prefer to have another decade without having to switch to a different regime. But there is a pattern when it comes to Coach Fox and that is without the right personnel his teams always fall short and not simply because they play better teams, but because they let themselves lose.

All I want is him to prove his worth, when the chips are down and the overall success not be due to the offense but in part due to all phases and on both sides of the ball. What if we extend him and what he's done in the past shows itself true in the coming years? Another five or six season run of .500 or worse? Another firing and another complete rebuild? I was hoping that the team would wait till after 2014, when his schedule is the hardest it's been in years against teams that literally are in contention year in and year out and in a division that is getting better each year, San Diego and Kansas City will be better in most peoples opinions. If the defense improves and Denver only wins 10 games and makes the playoffs and win at least a game or two then I would be beating the drum to extend his contract, no matter what happens with Manning because I don't feel this team can win more then 9 games at best next season with their schedule. And I don't feel he can be as successful without Manning much like Shanahan wasn't successful without Elway. You believe differently and that is your prerogative. We don't see eye to eye on the matter, but I don't believe you can say he proved it when Manning is his quarterback, the one quarterback who I believe has proven his success is not do to his coaches.


good points but I have to jump up on the one part.
this team from the start of his regime the defense really has lacked superior talent, it has been building in quality under his and Johns guidance.
I would guess it would have been a MUCH better D this past year, had there not been so many starters not on the field for various reasons. Would it have been top 5? probably not but a top 10 D IMO would have made a huge difference in the SB. For that matter one player (ayers) being able to contain Harvin (end rounds) and Wilson (from getting outside the pocket) makes that game very winnable.
Johns forte has been his even keel and ability to keep a content locker room a departure from Mc Daniels, IMO that was the biggest reason he was hired. We did not need a polarizing guy to follow two others.
IMO the D should be much better next year IF all the IR guys come back and contribute as starters or quality depth off the bench.
I did not like the hire but had to trust that John E has a clue. So far the player moves for the most part have been heads and above what we have seen for long time.

[luckyseven]

Instill a litttle more discipline and get him help with the challenges. If we make it to the superbowl again next year I hope he does the exact opposite of what he did before this years game. Denver looked totally unprepared for that game.

you are pretty much spot on this.
Can anyone say that everyone was in shock with just how good our offense was?
Having manning get that 5th MVP a week before the SB did not help. it just gave that really good defense even more motivation. It was not like we were not able to move the ball, it was our mental mistakes and inability to contain outside plays that cost us that game.

do not get me wrong they have one hell of a defense, but then our BIG WRs played small in that game until it was to late to make a difference. not to mention our vaunted OL did not show up.

[VonDoom]

http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/5819/elway-says-foxs-deal-next-on-agenda

“We just haven’t had the time to really get to that,’’ Elway said Monday at the NFL meetings. “That’s the next thing on the agenda.’’

.....

Elway said he doesn’t expect any major hurdles in the negotiations in the coming weeks.

“I wouldn’t see any potential problems, bumps or anything like that,’’ Elway said. “Both sides want to get something done. In the end it always comes down to the thing it always comes down to, but we’ll get to work on that pretty soon.’’

[Mike]

I don't know how people are so supportive of this guy. His laxidaiscal approach won't help Denver win a SB. I am sure he is a nice guy, but everything about him just screams...almost...and good enough for me attitude. Extending him past this season would be setting the team back and the biggest mistake Elway has made since coming here.



ORLANDO, Fla. — If John Fox gets a chance to do it over again, he'll re-do it.

Let's say the Broncos — with Peyton Manning returning on offense and DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib and T.J. Ward added to their defense — again reach the Super Bowl in the 2014 season.

What would Fox do differently in the two weeks leading up to the final game?

"Probably everything," Fox said.

His answer prompted laughter at his table during the AFC coaches breakfast Tuesday that is part of the NFL owners meetings at Ritz-Carlton Grande Lakes resort.

Broncos fans are no doubt relieved. Whatever the Broncos did to prepare for their Super Bowl XLVIII game against the Seattle Seahawks seven weeks ago, they should never repeat it. The Seahawks drummed the Broncos, 43-8 in a blowout decided from the poorly executed first snap.

"Right now I'd like to get there," Fox said. "But even my kids were getting on me: Getaway hotel, dad, that's 80 percent bad."

For their Super Bowl week in New Jersey, the Broncos stayed at a Jersey City Hyatt Hotel from their arrival Sunday, Jan. 26 until Saturday, Feb. 1, when Fox wanted to get his players away from family distractions and moved the team to a Newark airport Renaissance Hotel.

The Broncos are again the early favorites to win the AFC this year. If they should get another crack at the big game, a hotel change on Super Bowl eve is unlikely.

"Seriously, we're a little bit goofy," Fox said. "You change a lot of things — some people say you're superstitious. Like if we lose on the road, we don't stay at that same hotel the next time we go there. So you change if it didn't work."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_25414923/john-fox-would-do-everything-differently-if-broncos

[MOtorboat]

I disagree completely. Most of these times he's joking with the media and I really think you have to take that with a grain of salt and not so seriously.

I don't think there's a single ounce of evidence to support the idea that he can't win one. He's been to two. Lost one because of the greatest clutch kicker of all time.

[dogfish]

Lost one because of the greatest clutch kicker of all time.

and because his own liquored-up idiot kicker somehow managed the colossal blunder of kicking off out of bounds. . .

[Buff]

I don't know how people are so supportive of this guy. His laxidaiscal approach won't help Denver win a SB. I am sure he is a nice guy, but everything about him just screams...almost...and good enough for me attitude. Extending him past this season would be setting the team back and the biggest mistake Elway has made since coming here.



ORLANDO, Fla. — If John Fox gets a chance to do it over again, he'll re-do it.

Let's say the Broncos — with Peyton Manning returning on offense and DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib and T.J. Ward added to their defense — again reach the Super Bowl in the 2014 season.

What would Fox do differently in the two weeks leading up to the final game?

"Probably everything," Fox said.

His answer prompted laughter at his table during the AFC coaches breakfast Tuesday that is part of the NFL owners meetings at Ritz-Carlton Grande Lakes resort.

Broncos fans are no doubt relieved. Whatever the Broncos did to prepare for their Super Bowl XLVIII game against the Seattle Seahawks seven weeks ago, they should never repeat it. The Seahawks drummed the Broncos, 43-8 in a blowout decided from the poorly executed first snap.

"Right now I'd like to get there," Fox said. "But even my kids were getting on me: Getaway hotel, dad, that's 80 percent bad."

For their Super Bowl week in New Jersey, the Broncos stayed at a Jersey City Hyatt Hotel from their arrival Sunday, Jan. 26 until Saturday, Feb. 1, when Fox wanted to get his players away from family distractions and moved the team to a Newark airport Renaissance Hotel.

The Broncos are again the early favorites to win the AFC this year. If they should get another crack at the big game, a hotel change on Super Bowl eve is unlikely.

"Seriously, we're a little bit goofy," Fox said. "You change a lot of things — some people say you're superstitious. Like if we lose on the road, we don't stay at that same hotel the next time we go there. So you change if it didn't work."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_25414923/john-fox-would-do-everything-differently-if-broncos

Fox's conservative game management makes me crazy... But I think he has a great leadership style that's laid back but assertive. He commands respect from everyone in the building - he's not just some players coach who gets walked on, or a disciplinarian who the players don't like. I really enjoy his leadership - just not his gameday decision making.

[luckyseven]

Fox's conservative game management makes me crazy... But I think he has a great leadership style that's laid back but assertive. He commands respect from everyone in the building - he's not just some players coach who gets walked on, or a disciplinarian who the players don't like. I really enjoy his leadership - just not his gameday decision making.

I believe that also. Never liked the pick when it happened nor till about half way through this past season when he stRted to trust Gase and Mannning on call a we all know he would have never before made before.

The guy is evolving as we speak. He was the best choice considering who was available at the time and has the respect of all the players.

No coach is perfect and anyone that thinks there are is slightly demented.

They all have warts of some sort.
But once Manning gets his two titles and walks off into the sunset Fox is the guy you want to settle into a strong running game.

If you do not believe that they are building up the OL for that eventuality your pissing into the tide.

[dogfish]

i still think fox was a quality choice for what we needed at the time. . . JFE took over the flaming wreckage of the mcdisaster, this organization desperately needed the stability and professionalism of an experienced, steady hand at the wheel. . . fox and his chosen assistants have restored our credibility as a serious operation-- landing the biggest free agent to ever hit the market was a clear and obvious validation of the coaching staff's and FO's work. . .

all that said, i really do expect elway to go with a younger, more dynamic coach whenever fox does retire. . . remember, we did try to sign harbaugh. . . it just makes sense to keep fox around to play out the string with peyton, though-- the potential benefits of changing things mid-stream are far outweighed by the possible negatives. . . at some point in the next few years, i do expect us to most likely have a younger coach paired with a young QB, but now's not the right time to make a change at HC. . . no one's saying fox is the best, but he's good enough. . .

[Buff]

i still think fox was a quality choice for what we needed at the time. . . JFE took over the flaming wreckage of the mcdisaster, this organization desperately needed the stability and professionalism of an experienced, steady hand at the wheel. . . fox and his chosen assistants have restored our credibility as a serious operation-- landing the biggest free agent to ever hit the market was a clear and obvious validation of the coaching staff's and FO's work. . .

all that said, i really do expect elway to go with a younger, more dynamic coach whenever fox does retire. . . remember, we did try to sign harbaugh. . . it just makes sense to keep fox around to play out the string with peyton, though-- the potential benefits of changing things mid-stream are far outweighed by the possible negatives. . . at some point in the next few years, i do expect us to most likely have a youngere coach paired with a young QB, but now's not the right time to make a change at HC. . . no one's saying fox is the best, but he's good enough. . .

In retrospect I think Fox was the perfect hire. We needed a serious adult with credibility. The combination of him, Elway and Manning have made us an elite destination once again and restored our credibility... Coulda done without that Super Bowl blowout though, if I'm honest.

[Ravage!!!]

In retrospect I think Fox was the perfect hire. We needed a serious adult with credibility. The combination of him, Elway and Manning have made us an elite destination once again and restored our credibility... Coulda done without that Super Bowl blowout though, if I'm honest.

YEah.. but that just wasn't Fox's fault.

[dogfish]

In retrospect I think Fox was the perfect hire. We needed a serious adult with credibility. The combination of him, Elway and Manning have made us an elite destination once again and restored our credibility... Coulda done without that Super Bowl blowout though, if I'm honest.

well, for frickin' sure. . . losing in the super bowl still beats the hell out of getting the second pick in the draft and being a complete laughingstock, though. . .

plus, beating the gawddamn haughty stealers in the playoffs with little timmy was just epic. . . they've never recovered. . . i'll always appreciate fox for that. . .

the grade's obviously still incomplete, but overall he's done a LOT more good here than bad. . . we are a legit destination franchise and power player again, and that just by itself is no mean accomplishment at all. . . when we hired fox, i said it was the right choice because he could bring back respectability and fundamentally sound football, laying the necessary groundwork for the next guy to potentially build a champion. . . IMO that's already done-- if we can win a title on fox's watch as well, that's just pure gravy made possible by the acquisition of manning. . .

[luckyseven]

i still think fox was a quality choice for what we needed at the time. . . JFE took over the flaming wreckage of the mcdisaster, this organization desperately needed the stability and professionalism of an experienced, steady hand at the wheel. . . fox and his chosen assistants have restored our credibility as a serious operation-- landing the biggest free agent to ever hit the market was a clear and obvious validation of the coaching staff's and FO's work. . .

all that said, i really do expect elway to go with a younger, more dynamic coach whenever fox does retire. . . remember, we did try to sign harbaugh. . . it just makes sense to keep fox around to play out the string with peyton, though-- the potential benefits of changing things mid-stream are far outweighed by the possible negatives. . . at some point in the next few years, i do expect us to most likely have a younger coach paired with a young QB, but now's not the right time to make a change at HC. . . no one's saying fox is the best, but he's good enough. . .

As
Good as a response as should be needed.

If they were replace him the schemes go out the window and we basically start over uess you hire Gase (to young and inexperienced or JDR whom I had thought would have been a good replacement until Fox had surgery, his game day judgement left a lot on the table IMO.

So you are correct changing now is beyond dumb.

[luckyseven]

well, for frickin' sure. . . losing in the super bowl still beats the hell out of getting the second pick in the draft and being a complete laughingstock, though. . .

plus, beating the gawddamn haughty stealers in the playoffs with little timmy was just epic. . . they've never recovered. . . i'll always appreciate fox for that. . .

the grade's obviously still incomplete, but overall he's done a LOT more good here than bad. . . we are a legit destination franchise and power player again, and that just by itself is no mean accomplishment at all. . . when we hired fox, i said it was the right choice because he could bring back respectability and fundamentally sound football, laying the necessary groundwork for the next guy to potentially build a champion. . . IMO that's already done-- if we can win a title on fox's watch as well, that's just pure gravy made possible by the acquisition of manning. . .

Do you honestly think Fox really wanted Manning with his passing game.

After he had him and part way their rookie campaign together Fox finally let loose the reins and allowed him to play Football.

Had he done that in TC who knows how many games we would have won that year.

Fox is on board now and some of the going for it on fourth down shows how far he has come.

[MOtorboat]

Do you honestly think Fox really wanted Manning with his passing game.

I'm sorry, but :pound:

Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was just fine with the signing. :laugh:

[luckyseven]

I'm sorry, but :pound:

Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was just fine with the signing. :laugh:

IIRC FOx kept Manning ona very short leash forcing him to huddle up after each play until about game three.

game one total plays
2012 53
2013 65
game two
12 64
13 71
game three
12 73 in a loss
13 70
game 4
12 76
13 64
game 5
12 64
13 73

Fox was for the most part of 2012 very conservative in his calls.

Only late in the seaosn of 13 did he trust his QB to make 4th down plays.

and go for 2 a couple of times.

his plays per game went up in 2013 over 2012.

He simply did not trust his QB to make the plays with out calling them in and huddling up in those first 3-4 games.

Was he gald to have him over Tebow sure he was, but he really wanted a run first type QB someone that fit his style of conservative paly.

I have heard on other forums most of the year and lots of times on here about how consrevative he is.

[MOtorboat]

IIRC FOx kept Manning ona very short leash forcing him to huddle up after each play until about game three.

game one total plays
2012 53
2013 65
game two
12 64
13 71
game three
12 73 in a loss
13 70
game 4
12 76
13 64
game 5
12 64
13 73

Fox was for the most part of 2012 very conservative in his calls.

Only late in the seaosn of 13 did he trust his QB to make 4th down plays.

and go for 2 a couple of times.

his plays per game went up in 2013 over 2012.

He simply did not trust his QB to make the plays with out calling them in and huddling up in those first 3-4 games.

Was he gald to have him over Tebow sure he was, but he really wanted a run first type QB someone that fit his style of conservative paly.

I have heard on other forums most of the year and lots of times on here about how consrevative he is.

I don't have the energy to combat this nonsense.

Fox doesn't call offensive plays, and he admittedly allows his coordinators to do so. Manning dictates calls, anyway. That said, there isn't a coach in the game that doesn't want Manning as his quarterback. That's just utter nonsense. I'm pretty sure he's "gald" Manning "palyed."

[DenBronx]

In retrospect I think Fox was the perfect hire. We needed a serious adult with credibility. The combination of him, Elway and Manning have made us an elite destination once again and restored our credibility... Coulda done without that Super Bowl blowout though, if I'm honest.

That SB loss just confuses the hell out of me because it's really hard to place blame. Looked like a complete team meltdown to me. Bet if we played them a week later we would have gave them a run for their money. Not saying we would have won but I bet we could have made it a game. Mentally we looked abused, not just coaches but players too. It's like a switch went off and we just shut down.


Everything just seemed to go perfect for Seattle and I think that's why we mentally checked out. Also I read that Seattle knew the plays from the signals that Manning would give. Got to think that rattled him and distorted the whole offense. Wish we had changed ALL of the verbage and hand signals before that game.


If this happens next year though I will seriously start questioning the coaching staff. We have the talent.....we just need these guys to have mental toughness and coaches can help get them ready for that.

[luckyseven]

I don't have the energy to combat this nonsense.

Fox doesn't call offensive plays, and he admittedly allows his coordinators to do so. Manning dictates calls, anyway. That said, there isn't a coach in the game that doesn't want Manning as his quarterback. That's just utter nonsense. I'm pretty sure he's "gald" Manning "palyed."

Oh your are so cute.

To tired to think. Well that is your problem.

fox does not call plays.

Sure he does, he tells the OC what kind of game plan he wants. That is what Head Coaches do, alway have always will.

Does he call in each play, no he does not and NO Where was that implied.

What were facts are the first 3 games or so, the offense huddled up on most if not every play. Something that Manning disliked he wanted to play his fast paced, read the D at the LOS and force the D to stay on the field, not allowing them to substitute.

Do you think that Fox laid out those plans to huddle up or Manning and The current OC?


I think we all know that answer.

The fact is Fox did not trust Manning to execute his game plan BTW most of those games were pretty close to 50/50 run vs pass unless we were loading the game ..
After those first couple of games the pass to run was higher. Because manning was making the call at the LOS.

And last year it was balls to the walls pass first and run only if the safeties were playing deep.

Manninng was actually asked in 2012 about the slower paced games after they opened it up in about game 4-5. said that he and the OC kind of ignored the game plan.

[DenBronx]

IIRC FOx kept Manning ona very short leash forcing him to huddle up after each play until about game three.

game one total plays
2012 53
2013 65
game two
12 64
13 71
game three
12 73 in a loss
13 70
game 4
12 76
13 64
game 5
12 64
13 73

Fox was for the most part of 2012 very conservative in his calls.

Only late in the seaosn of 13 did he trust his QB to make 4th down plays.

and go for 2 a couple of times.

his plays per game went up in 2013 over 2012.

He simply did not trust his QB to make the plays with out calling them in and huddling up in those first 3-4 games.

Was he gald to have him over Tebow sure he was, but he really wanted a run first type QB someone that fit his style of conservative paly.

I have heard on other forums most of the year and lots of times on here about how consrevative he is.




Adam Gase.


Learn who he is.



Peyton Manning.



Learn that he changes everything and anything he sees fit to change.

[DenBronx]

Oh your are so cute.

To tired to think. Well that is your problem.

fox does not call plays.

Sure he does, he tells the OC what kind of game plan he wants. That is what Head Coaches do, alway have always will.

Does he call in each play, no he does not and NO Where was that implied.

What were facts are the first 3 games or so, the offense huddled up on most if not every play. Something that Manning disliked he wanted to play his fast paced, read the D at the LOS and force the D to stay on the field, not allowing them to substitute.

Do you think that Fox laid out those plans to huddle up or Manning and The current OC?


I think we all know that answer.

The fact is Fox did not trust Manning to execute his game plan BTW most of those games were pretty close to 50/50 run vs pass unless we were loading the game ..
After those first couple of games the pass to run was higher. Because manning was making the call at the LOS.

And last year it was balls to the walls pass first and run only if the safeties were playing deep.

Manninng was actually asked in 2012 about the slower paced games after they opened it up in about game 4-5. said that he and the OC kind of ignored the game plan.



In your prior post you just said Fox calls the plays. You just said that.



Saying Fox didn't trust Manning to execute the game plan is just nonsense bro and you know it.

[luckyseven]

That SB loss just confuses the hell out of me because it's really hard to place blame. Looked like a complete team meltdown to me. Bet if we played them a week later we would have gave them a run for their money. Not saying we would have won but I bet we could have made it a game. Mentally we looked abused, not just coaches but players too. It's like a switch went off and we just shut down.


Everything just seemed to go perfect for Seattle and I think that's why we mentally checked out. Also I read that Seattle knew the plays from the signals that Manning would give. Got to think that rattled him and distorted the whole offense. Wish we had changed ALL of the verbage and hand signals before that game.


If this happens next year though I will seriously start questioning the coaching staff. We have the talent.....we just need these guys to have mental toughness and coaches can help get them ready for that.

One of the biggest issues for Manning and the offense was when they were on the field, the operators of the electronic signs at met life put get loud on the screens, but did not do that to the Seahawks.


That was noticed by folks that actually went to the game.

After hearing that I went back and listened to the game and it was indeed a difference in noise.

The players said they expected more of a neutral group.

There may have been actual "cheating" going on with the hand signals that Manning called, which there is little doubt that BB might have made a call.

[MOtorboat]

Oh your are so cute.

To tired to think. Well that is your problem.

fox does not call plays.

Sure he does, he tells the OC what kind of game plan he wants. That is what Head Coaches do, alway have always will.

Does he call in each play, no he does not and NO Where was that implied.

What were facts are the first 3 games or so, the offense huddled up on most if not every play. Something that Manning disliked he wanted to play his fast paced, read the D at the LOS and force the D to stay on the field, not allowing them to substitute.

Do you think that Fox laid out those plans to huddle up or Manning and The current OC?


I think we all know that answer.

The fact is Fox did not trust Manning to execute his game plan BTW most of those games were pretty close to 50/50 run vs pass unless we were loading the game ..
After those first couple of games the pass to run was higher. Because manning was making the call at the LOS.

And last year it was balls to the walls pass first and run only if the safeties were playing deep.

Manninng was actually asked in 2012 about the slower paced games after they opened it up in about game 4-5. said that he and the OC kind of ignored the game plan.

This is just ridiculous.

Manning recognized he needed a little more conservative of an offense in his first year here. It was evident. To even remotely pin it on Fox is just plain lazy and idiotic.

I am a little too tired tonight to formulate a more thoughtful response, but your premise is utterly idiotic,

Fox has shown a distinct ability to be the ultimate manager, and he had Mike McCoy (now a head coach of a playoff team) and Adam Gase this year AND literally the greatest quarterback mind who has ever lived at quarterback and you're suggesting they just cowtowed to Fox, who has NEVER called a single offensive play in his coaching career?

**** off with that nonsense.

And them you ACTUALLY have suggested Fox didn't want Manning?

Jimmy ******* Christmas that is stupid.

[luckyseven]

In your prior post you just said Fox calls the plays. You just said that.



Saying Fox didn't trust Manning to execute the game plan is just nonsense bro and you know it.

Nowhere did I say fox directly called the plays in. Try again.

While I said he did not trust him to execute the game plan I guess I should have said he did not trust his fast paced O that he used to run in Indy and was more comfortable with his take your time, huddle up and run more than Manning was used to.

[luckyseven]

This is just ridiculous.

Manning recognized he needed a little more conservative of an offense in his first year here. It was evident. To even remotely pin it on Fox is just plain lazy and idiotic.

I am a little too tired tonight to formulate a more thoughtful response, but your premise is utterly idiotic,

Fox has shown a distinct ability to be the ultimate manager, and he had Mike McCoy (now a head coach of a playoff team) and Adam Gase this year AND literally the greatest quarterback mind who has ever lived at quarterback and you're suggesting they just cowtowed to Fox, who has NEVER called a single offensive play in his coaching career?

**** off with that nonsense.

And them you ACTUALLY have suggested Fox didn't want Manning?

Jimmy ******* Christmas that is stupid.

Hmm trolling in this one also?

[MOtorboat]

Hmm trolling in this one also?

Prove Fox didn't want Manning. I want specific quotes, not conspiracy theories about play calling.

Specific quotes.

[DenBronx]

Nowhere did I say fox directly called the plays in. Try again.

While I said he did not trust him to execute the game plan I guess I should have said he did not trust his fast paced O that he used to run in Indy and was more comfortable with his take your time, huddle up and run more than Manning was used to.


The 2013 Broncos offense was even more fast paced than the offense Manning ran in Indy. Much more aggressive go for it all offense. I saw Manning call plays from the line almost the whole damn year.

[MOtorboat]

Come on Jrwiz.

Burden of proof.

[luckyseven]

The 2013 Broncos offense was even more fast paced than the offense Manning ran in Indy. Much more aggressive go for it all offense. I saw Manning call plays from the line almost the whole damn year.

Yet in the first few games of 2012 they huddled up most ofthe games. That was what is was talking about.

Yes last year 2013 he rarely huddled up and rarely allowed even our own team to subsitute.

[MOtorboat]

Yet in the first few games of 2012 they huddled up most ofthe games. That was what is was talking about.

Yes last year 2013 he rarely huddled up and rarely allowed even our own team to subsitute.

No proof for your accusations?

[Mike]

well, for frickin' sure. . . losing in the super bowl still beats the hell out of getting the second pick in the draft and being a complete laughingstock, though. . .

plus, beating the gawddamn haughty stealers in the playoffs with little timmy was just epic. . . they've never recovered. . . i'll always appreciate fox for that. . .

the grade's obviously still incomplete, but overall he's done a LOT more good here than bad. . . we are a legit destination franchise and power player again, and that just by itself is no mean accomplishment at all. . . when we hired fox, i said it was the right choice because he could bring back respectability and fundamentally sound football, laying the necessary groundwork for the next guy to potentially build a champion. . . IMO that's already done-- if we can win a title on fox's watch as well, that's just pure gravy made possible by the acquisition of manning. . .

I agree with that. I like Fox as a person, and think he is a decent HC. He certainly provided stability when needed. And I am not advocating getting rid of him this year, I don't know where that came from...somebody reading too much into my criticism of Fox. Denver is committed to Fox and to change now would be counterproductive. The best chance to win a SB is to ride it out. Denver is the best team in the AFC and should reach the SB again. But I don't see them winning it without a massive effort from the players and real leaders stepping up from within the team.

What I am saying in my criticism of Fox, is that Denver should not extend his contract past this year. Consider extensions after we see how the year goes, but I expect it to end the same way that it has the last 3 years. Good enough to win the majority, not good enough to beat the elite when coaching matters more. I don't want him coaching Denver post Manning for sure. His attitude post SB loss has completely turned me against him. Post Manning Denver is, at best, 3rd best behind more improved SD and KC. People can argue the Tebow year, but that was more luck and horrible division than anything else and he didn't even want Tebow to play anyway.

[TXBRONC]

IIRC FOx kept Manning ona very short leash forcing him to huddle up after each play until about game three.

game one total plays
2012 53
2013 65
game two
12 64
13 71
game three
12 73 in a loss
13 70
game 4
12 76
13 64
game 5
12 64
13 73

Fox was for the most part of 2012 very conservative in his calls.

Only late in the seaosn of 13 did he trust his QB to make 4th down plays.

and go for 2 a couple of times.

his plays per game went up in 2013 over 2012.

He simply did not trust his QB to make the plays with out calling them in and huddling up in those first 3-4 games.

Was he gald to have him over Tebow sure he was, but he really wanted a run first type QB someone that fit his style of conservative paly.

I have heard on other forums most of the year and lots of times on here about how consrevative he is.


I don't have the energy to combat this nonsense.

Fox doesn't call offensive plays, and he admittedly allows his coordinators to do so. Manning dictates calls, anyway. That said, there isn't a coach in the game that doesn't want Manning as his quarterback. That's just utter nonsense. I'm pretty sure he's "gald" Manning "palyed."

MO is right Lucky this is nonesense. Fox in no freaking way kept Manning on a short leash. What they did was dictated by what Manning could physically and also getting comfortable with new teammates.

[TXBRONC]

Come on Jrwiz.

Burden of proof.

There can be one an only one Jrwiz/Lonestar.

[luckyseven]

MO is right Lucky this is nonesense. Fox in no freaking way kept Manning on a short leash. What they did was dictated by what Manning could physically and also getting comfortable with new teammates.

There was a pressed after one of the games that they went to the fast attack no huddle where Manning said they had went to the faster play pretty much against foxes direction and from that point on they were more or less in fast attack mode.

You Feel that it was protecting Manning and maybe to some degree it was.

But the OC and team knew what they could do. IMO.

[TXBRONC]

There was a pressed after one of the games that they went to the fast attack no huddle where Manning said they had went to the faster play pretty much against foxes direction and from that point on they were more or less in fast attack mode.

You Feel that it was protecting Manning and maybe to some degree it was.

But the OC and team knew what they could do. IMO.

I don't recall Manning ever saying he and the offensive co-ordinator decided be insubordinate.

[MOtorboat]

There was a pressed after one of the games that they went to the fast attack no huddle where Manning said they had went to the faster play pretty much against foxes direction and from that point on they were more or less in fast attack mode.

You Feel that it was protecting Manning and maybe to some degree it was.

But the OC and team knew what they could do. IMO.

Link, please.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Do you honestly think Fox really wanted Manning with his passing game.

After he had him and part way their rookie campaign together Fox finally let loose the reins and allowed him to play Football.

Had he done that in TC who knows how many games we would have won that year.

Fox is on board now and some of the going for it on fourth down shows how far he has come.

I'll chime in on some of your questions:

1. Yes I think Fox wanted Manning. If you read any of the stories about the Manning courtship you know that Fox and JFE both were giddy with anticipation and overjoyed at the Manning signing. What coach doesn't want an elite QB? One that doesn't want to keep his job.

2. I think the offense took it slowly the first few games for a couple of reasons:
- nobody really knew if Manning was back to full strength and they openly admitted he was on a "pitch count" at least in the preseason.
- the no huddle is a complicated offense and even Manning admitted that he, the o-line, the RBs, and the Receivers all had to get on the same page to make it work and they weren't there yet after TC. Remember how much of a disaster it was early in the Atlanta game when we tried no huddle and Manning threw 3 picks or when Matt Willis misunderstood the signals from Manning that resulted in a pick 6 vs SD?

I don't think Fox had anything to do with it. Manning and Mike McCoy were running the offense then. Fox isn't an offensive "mastermind", but he knows enough to stay out of a guy like Peyton's way.

[luckyseven]

I'll chime in on some of your questions:

1. Yes I think Fox wanted Manning. If you read any of the stories about the Manning courtship you know that Fox and JFE both were giddy with anticipation and overjoyed at the Manning signing. What coach doesn't want an elite QB? One that doesn't want to keep his job.

2. I think the offense took it slowly the first few games for a couple of reasons:
- nobody really knew if Manning was back to full strength and they openly admitted he was on a "pitch count" at least in the preseason.
- the no huddle is a complicated offense and even Manning admitted that he, the o-line, the RBs, and the Receivers all had to get on the same page to make it work and they weren't there yet after TC. Remember how much of a disaster it was early in the Atlanta game when we tried no huddle and Manning threw 3 picks or when Matt Willis misunderstood the signals from Manning that resulted in a pick 6 vs SD?

I don't think Fox had anything to do with it. Manning and Mike McCoy were running the offense then. Fox isn't an offensive "mastermind", but he knows enough to stay out of a guy like Peyton's way.

Ok I can see your points.

I just get a different read on it.