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Dapper Dan
02-10-2014, 09:06 PM
Is he part of the reason the Offensive Line wasn't a complete disaster like we thought it would be?

whiteniko
02-10-2014, 09:07 PM
No.

Dapper Dan
02-10-2014, 09:10 PM
No.

Why do you specify "white" Niko? Isn't Niko white anyway?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-10-2014, 10:08 PM
Why do you specify "white" Niko? Isn't Niko white anyway?

His name is Niko and he happens to be an albino. WTE told me.

Dapper Dan
02-10-2014, 10:17 PM
His name is Niko and he happens to be an albino. WTE told me.

Interesting.

whiteniko
02-10-2014, 10:40 PM
I like redundancy as much as I like SEC Conference and PIN Number.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-10-2014, 10:46 PM
Interesting.

If you find that interesting you should know I can write in cursive.

Dapper Dan
02-10-2014, 10:55 PM
If you find that interesting you should know I can write in cursive.

I stopped writing cursive and forgot how.

Dapper Dan
02-10-2014, 10:56 PM
I like redundancy as much as I like SEC Conference and PIN Number.

What redundancy are you talking about? I like the SEC and PIN Numbers.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-10-2014, 11:05 PM
Is he part of the reason the Offensive Line wasn't a complete disaster like we thought it would be?

In regards to your question, yes I believe that he had a lot to do with how good the OL was this year.

Jaded
02-11-2014, 12:35 AM
"The thing about redheads is...lack of pigmentation."

"Well they're practically albino"

"You bang an albino?"

"No"

"Well I have and they're nuts!"

luckyseven
02-11-2014, 12:45 AM
In regards to your question, yes I believe that he had a lot to do with how good the OL was this year.

Everything I heard about him this year was he was more about teaching the "depth" players proper use of hands and footwork, more so than the starters.. I also heard he worked with Vasquez early in the year "OTA's" to improve his play going from a good OG to an All Pro..

The guy that makes the biggest difference in the OL play outside of Manning is Mazu..

Joel
02-12-2014, 06:22 AM
It wasn't? Anyone ask Seattle about that?

Dzone
02-12-2014, 06:35 AM
The line was fine until the superbowl. Most of their success is playing on a line with Peyton Manning at qb. How would any of our linemen be if they had to block for a quarterback who holds the ball longer than manning? I suspect chris clark would not do very well. Beadles would get creamed and Orlando would be getting beat for sacks repeatedly. We are fine up front as long as pfm is at qb. Any other qb and our line is mediocre at best

Dapper Dan
02-12-2014, 07:20 AM
So how did the line look in the very very limited time Oz was in?

Dapper Dan
02-12-2014, 07:21 AM
It wasn't? Anyone ask Seattle about that?

You will not speak of that game in my presence. You hear me?

Joel
02-12-2014, 05:27 PM
So how did the line look in the very very limited time Oz was in?
They protected his handoffs at an All Pro level; since we only stuck him in for garbage time mop up duty that's all he needed.

The real question is how they looked after Moreno and Ball received each of those handoffs, and the answer is "about the same: 4.1 yds/att, 20th best." That's just above the BOTTOM 10. Even the season total is only 15th best, and that's with a lot of second half running to kill the clock. Not as much as it should be; too often we wound up trying to kill the clock with the pass because our line left us in 3rd and long after a pair of minimal runs; fortunately Manning doesn't throw many incompletes, so the clock kept moving.

Like DZone said, the Super Bowl made painfully clear how much of our league low sack total was Manning quick reads and throws rather than the line: Facing a secondary that plays a lot of press, Manning had to hold the ball just a little longer, and since we couldn't stop 4 pass rushers with 5 blockers, he didn't have that kind of time and the D did have lots of guys for coverage. Throw in our anemic rushing attack so they could sell out on the pass and ignore play action, and it wasn't pretty.

Joel
02-12-2014, 05:30 PM
You will not speak of that game in my presence. You hear me?
*shrugs* The people speaking about it most are the ones hardest to silence, though their shiny new trophy and jewelry speak louder than any of their boasts. It's the flip side of the post-SB line, IMHO; instead of only being good on the left we were only good on the right. That means we can't run either direction, because the D can send everyone to Vasquez and Franklins side knowing Beadles and Clark won't spring many runs even if we go that way. Hopefully that changes when Clady's back, but Beadles is probably gone whether we like it or not (I do.)

Jaded
02-12-2014, 10:06 PM
It wasn't? Anyone ask Seattle about that?

The Broncos should trade Peyton Manning for 6 All-Pro OL and sign Tim Tebow.

Joel
02-13-2014, 12:24 PM
The Broncos should trade Peyton Manning for 6 All-Pro OL and sign Tim Tebow.
Why is the only person who criticizes our offensive line more than me debating a point on which we largely agree? Because of unrelated old news no one wants to dicuss? Weak, dude.

Hawgdriver
02-13-2014, 01:25 PM
Is he part of the reason the Offensive Line wasn't a complete disaster like we thought it would be?

I was wondering how much of a role he had in the surprising effectiveness of Clark and Ramirez.

topscribe
02-13-2014, 01:31 PM
The Broncos should trade Peyton Manning for 6 All-Pro OL and sign Tim Tebow.
Get out.
.

topscribe
02-13-2014, 01:34 PM
I was wondering how much of a role he had in the surprising effectiveness of Clark and Ramirez.
IMO, Clark's effectiveness can probably be attributed largely to Manning's quick release.

Ramirez was more effective because he is better at center than at guard, again IMO.
.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-13-2014, 01:35 PM
John Elway the quarterback won two Super Bowl rings with Alex Gibbs directing his offensive line. Now, Elway the executive hopes Gibbs can help the Denver Broncos win another ring.

The Broncos have brought Gibbs out of retirement to serve as a consultant for their offensive line. He will work with offensive line coach Dave Magazu. The two have worked together in the past.

The team is bringing in Gibbs, 72, primarily to work with the younger linemen, those players who often don’t get a lot of repetitions. Gibbs will be in charge of helping them with technique.

Gibbs is known as an authority on the zone-blocking scheme. He was the Broncos’ offensive line coach from 1995 to 2003, when the team excelled using the scheme. Denver now uses more of a power-blocking scheme with some zone-blocking influences. That will not change.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/58275/alex-gibbs-comes-back-to-broncos

dogfish
02-13-2014, 06:24 PM
so essentially, they brought gibbs back to see if he can develop a couple late round guys into quality starters the way he did with players like nalen and lepsis. . . makes sense. . . with the money we have invested in clady and vasquez, it helps tremendously if we can fill a few of the other spots with lower-salary players. . . it'll be interesting to see how this off-season and draft play out, but franklin's certainly not a lock to be re-signed after next year. . . i'm assuming that beadles is already as good as gone, and winston justice-- our curent swing tackle-- is also a free agent. . . it'll be interesting to see if we have any in-house candidates ready to seriously compete for a spot, or if they'll try to slot clark in somewhere. . . G will hate me for it, but i just don't see us spending a high pick on the O-line this year. . . just way too many more immediate needs on defense. . . with manning's release and pre-snap reads, i'm almost positive we'll be looking to either franklin or clark to man the barricades for another year, at least. . .

honestly, if we don't re-sign decker, i'd guess the staff will see WR as a more pressing need than OL. . . welker's only signed for one more year, and caldwell's gonna be a free agent (i do hope and believe that we can probably bring him back on the cheap). . . robinson will undoubtedly get a longer look, but you can't go into camp counting on him as a primary option-- not on this team. . . maybe we sign a cheaper FA on a one or two year deal if we can't afford decker-- i could see that happening, it is a pretty deep FA group this year, possibly someone slips through the cracks. . . nicks or maclin coming off injury problems, or take a chance on danario alexander. . . or maybe we go with a cheaper vet who can still be effective, like a jericho cotchery or santana moss. . . given the developmental curve, i can see us wanting to plug in a vet to play out the string with manning, rather than drafting and developing that particular position at this point (not counting potential late round developmental types). . .

i still think we'd be likely to spend most or all of our higher picks on defense, though. . . pending free agency, we could have pressing needs at cornerback, safety, middle linebacker and defensive end going into the draft. . . granted, i'm sure we will take care of a few of those in free agency (most notably defensive end, whether it's philips or someone else), but counting depth needs, we certainly won't fill all those holes. . . nope. . . i think this draft is geared towards defense, and that we'd much more likely look to spend a high pick on an OL (probably RT) next year, if franklin walks. . . our line was quite effective most of the year, including the two playoff games we won-- i don't think elway's going to react too drastically to one game where literally every single thing that could go wrong did. . .

Jaded
02-13-2014, 09:56 PM
Why is the only person who criticizes our offensive line more than me debating a point on which we largely agree? Because of unrelated old news no one wants to dicuss? Weak, dude.

I don't agree with you, I coulda swore I saw you saying Denver needs to replace Franklin.

Joel
02-14-2014, 01:12 AM
I don't agree with you, I coulda swore I saw you saying Denver needs to replace Franklin.
You're the one who said our guards are puffed up full backs and our tackles slow tight ends, an observation precise and accurate enough I've shamelessly stolen it a couple times. You've criticized Beadles often enough I'm certain we agree on replacing him, even if we waited for him to force our hand by leaving for more money then he deserves. I have no problem with Vasquez or Clady, but feel better about Ramirez than about Franklin. As a rookie he looked it, and only managed to become serviceable this year, then blew it in the Super Bowl.

So IF Clady's fully healthy next fall, yeah, I want a new LG and RT, because we can only expect even the best QB and RBs to compensate for so much poor blocking. Even the best need linemen; the Super Bowl proved that, and if we don't want to be manhandled just as badly each time we face a front four as tough as Seattles and SFs, we need better linemen. Between Franklin and Clarks struggles with quick agile rushers and Clady nearing 30 after another serious injury, a top tackles makes as much sense as a top guard.

luckyseven
02-14-2014, 02:00 AM
You're the one who said our guards are puffed up full backs and our tackles slow tight ends, an observation precise and accurate enough I've shamelessly stolen it a couple times. You've criticized Beadles often enough I'm certain we agree on replacing him, even if we waited for him to force our hand by leaving for more money then he deserves. I have no problem with Vasquez or Clady, but feel better about Ramirez than about Franklin. As a rookie he looked it, and only managed to become serviceable this year, then blew it in the Super Bowl.

So IF Clady's fully healthy next fall, yeah, I want a new LG and RT, because we can only expect even the best QB and RBs to compensate for so much poor blocking. Even the best need linemen; the Super Bowl proved that, and if we don't want to be manhandled just as badly each time we face a front four as tough as Seattles and SFs, we need better linemen. Between Franklin and Clarks struggles with quick agile rushers and Clady nearing 30 after another serious injury, a top tackles makes as much sense as a top guard. you do realize that many top OL players can and do play into the mid 30's it is not like they lose a step. He has also only played 5 years. With last year off to heal.

BTW Clady is 27 not nearing 30.

Joel
02-14-2014, 02:56 AM
you do realize that many top OL players can and do play into the mid 30's it is not like they lose a step. He has also only played 5 years. With last year off to heal.

BTW Clady is 27 not nearing 30.
He turns 28 at the start of next season, and two years ago had a nagging leg injury that hobbled him all year; now he's had a serious lis-franc injury that cost him nearly all of this season and required surgery. I think Ravage!!! was the one quoting all the sports doctors saying almost no one ever comes back 100% from a lis-franc, and that was in the context of Champ missing most of this season with a much milder form of the same injury as Clady. Just before his first (unsuccessful) attempt to return, Champ said he didn't think the pain would ever go away.

There's no guarantee Clady will be good as new when the season starts, and Franklin looked awful in the SB even without facing a blitz; it's definitely worthwhile to look at quality starting OTs.

swaiy
02-14-2014, 03:10 AM
There's no guarantee Clady will be good as new when the season starts, and Franklin looked awful in the SB even without facing a blitz; it's definitely worthwhile to look at quality starting OTs.

There's no guarantee that he won't be.

topscribe
02-14-2014, 08:18 PM
You're the one who said our guards are puffed up full backs and our tackles slow tight ends, an observation precise and accurate enough I've shamelessly stolen it a couple times. You've criticized Beadles often enough I'm certain we agree on replacing him, even if we waited for him to force our hand by leaving for more money then he deserves. I have no problem with Vasquez or Clady, but feel better about Ramirez than about Franklin. As a rookie he looked it, and only managed to become serviceable this year, then blew it in the Super Bowl.

So IF Clady's fully healthy next fall, yeah, I want a new LG and RT, because we can only expect even the best QB and RBs to compensate for so much poor blocking. Even the best need linemen; the Super Bowl proved that, and if we don't want to be manhandled just as badly each time we face a front four as tough as Seattles and SFs, we need better linemen. Between Franklin and Clarks struggles with quick agile rushers and Clady nearing 30 after another serious injury, a top tackles makes as much sense as a top guard.
I just happened to think . . . as one possibility to filling the hole, should they
consider moving Franklin to LG, Ryan Harris is entering FA this year, and I
understand he did a pretty good job for Houston. He still makes his home in
Denver. Just a thought . . .
.

Lancane
02-14-2014, 08:51 PM
I just happened to think . . . as one possibility to filling the hole, should they
consider moving Franklin to LG, Ryan Harris is entering FA this year, and I
understand he did a pretty good job for Houston. He still makes his home in
Denver. Just a thought . . .
.

But Top, Franklin is considered to be one of the best right tackles in the NFL, granted he can play guard and has done so, wouldn't it be better to fill the guard position with someone who actually has become continually use to such at this level or collegiate level? Look at how bad Ramirez struggled at center this season much in the same way. Harris isn't considered an upgrade but a downgrade, even on paper. Not to mention that he returned to the Broncos in 2012 under the current regime and they chose not to re-sign him for a reason.

topscribe
02-14-2014, 09:04 PM
But Top, Franklin is considered to be one of the best right tackles in the NFL, granted he can play guard and has done so, wouldn't it be better to fill the guard position with someone who actually has become continually use to such at this level or collegiate level? Look at how bad Ramirez struggled at center this season much in the same way. Harris isn't considered an upgrade but a downgrade, even on paper. Not to mention that he returned to the Broncos in 2012 under the current regime and they chose not to re-sign him for a reason.
I don't know how much tongue-in-cheek there was in your comment, but Ramirez
did an outstanding job for never having played at it before. This next year, he
will be an experienced player. I believe the Broncos are set at center.

Though no one could bull rush him, Franklin had mounds of problems against
speed rushers. It just seems to me that he might be better inside than out in
space. At least, it's worth a try.

2012 was two years ago. Harris was recovering from an injury. That is the
reason they let him go. Since then, he has seemed to do pretty well with
Houston, and he was one of the better RTs in the league before his injury.
I believe he is also a Broncos fan at heart. It might be worth it to the team
to at least consider bringing him back. IMHO.
.

luckyseven
02-14-2014, 09:23 PM
He turns 28 at the start of next season, and two years ago had a nagging leg injury that hobbled him all year; now he's had a serious lis-franc injury that cost him nearly all of this season and required surgery. I think Ravage!!! was the one quoting all the sports doctors saying almost no one ever comes back 100% from a lis-franc, and that was in the context of Champ missing most of this season with a much milder form of the same injury as Clady. Just before his first (unsuccessful) attempt to return, Champ said he didn't think the pain would ever go away.

There's no guarantee Clady will be good as new when the season starts, and Franklin looked awful in the SB even without facing a blitz; it's definitely worthwhile to look at quality starting OTs.

At 28 he could have 10 more years in the league not one or two as most posters would have inferred from your nearing 30 remark.

He had a full year off from wear and tear on his body this past season that could indeed add more playing time to his career..

IIRC even though he was "hobbled" with a leg injury he was high on the list for the probowl.

According to doctors today a Lis franc injury is rarely a career ender. Contrary to ravages comments. The team will know soon about his availability and how measurable the injury is at this point. I think I'll go with what they say opposed to fan spec.

Now that said I have zero issue with picking up a quality (maybe exprienced) guy that could be used for depth for perhaps all spots on the OL.

luckyseven
02-14-2014, 09:29 PM
I just happened to think . . . as one possibility to filling the hole, should they
consider moving Franklin to LG, Ryan Harris is entering FA this year, and I
understand he did a pretty good job for Houston. He still makes his home in
Denver. Just a thought . . .
.

He was never a real factor when he played here Starting JUST 5 games over the past two years does not ring any church bells for me. Not even playing in every game in those two years further diminishes his durability.

At 6-5 and just 302 he would be a very undersized guy for us.

I'll pass.

luckyseven
02-14-2014, 09:35 PM
But Top, Franklin is considered to be one of the best right tackles in the NFL, granted he can play guard and has done so, wouldn't it be better to fill the guard position with someone who actually has become continually use to such at this level or collegiate level? Look at how bad Ramirez struggled at center this season much in the same way. Harris isn't considered an upgrade but a downgrade, even on paper. Not to mention that he returned to the Broncos in 2012 under the current regime and they chose not to re-sign him for a reason.


Let me add. Having a true TE that can actually block or better yet two of them (like NE) that can also catch the ball might negate or slow down the speed rush.

I also beleive that Franklin improved dramatically I've the past years and there is no reason with the current coaching staff and training regiment he does not still have a lot of upside.
He will be even more motivated this coming CONTRACT year to improve.
Let's all stop the Franklin to OG talk and look to bring one in in the Offseason.

Lancane
02-14-2014, 09:51 PM
I don't know how much tongue-in-cheek there was in your comment, but Ramirez
did an outstanding job for never having played at it before. This next year, he
will be an experienced player. I believe the Broncos are set at center.

Ramirez had committed a number of similar snap problems like the snafu in the Super Bowl. He's adequate at best, mediocre at worst. He missed several assignments this season and got beat off the block but is overlooked because Manning wasn't sacked or knocked down which has more to do with Manning's abilities then Ramirez's blocking. Maybe he'll be much better with a full off-season at the position, but he needs to be challenged, he was given the position purely by default because our top two centers were injured not because he was the right choice.


Though no one could bull rush him, Franklin had mounds of problems against
speed rushers. It just seems to me that he might be better inside than out in
space. At least, it's worth a try.

Maybe or maybe not, I guess that depends on the coaching staff and how they view it. But since being drafted Franklin has continually been praised for his prowess at right tackle.



2012 was two years ago. Harris was recovering from an injury. That is the
reason they let him go. Since then, he has seemed to do pretty well with
Houston, and he was one of the better RTs in the league before his injury.
I believe he is also a Broncos fan at heart. It might be worth it to the team
to at least consider bringing him back. IMHO.
.

Denver also doesn't run a full Zone Blocking Scheme like Houston which could explain his improvement, too much of a 'what if' IMHO.

topscribe
02-14-2014, 09:53 PM
He was never a real factor when he played here Starting JUST 5 games over the past two years does not ring any church bells for me. Not even playing in every game in those two years further diminishes his durability.

At 6-5 and just 302 he would be a very undersized guy for us.

I'll pass.
That's not true that he was never a factor. Before his injury, he was considered
one of the better RTs in the game.

Once again, you're talking about two years ago and back, anyway. The issue is,
how good has he been lately, like since then? Like now. You know, today. Like
not way back then. And it is my impression that he has done a pretty good job
for Houston. That's the issue: how he does on the field, not how much he
weighs. Too many people put too much weight on numbers, such as how tall is
he, how much does he weigh, how old is he, etc., etc. The first criterion to me
is how he does on the field. If he's good, I don't care about the rest.
.

Jaded
02-14-2014, 10:01 PM
You're the one who said our guards are puffed up full backs and our tackles slow tight ends, an observation precise and accurate enough I've shamelessly stolen it a couple times. You've criticized Beadles often enough I'm certain we agree on replacing him, even if we waited for him to force our hand by leaving for more money then he deserves. I have no problem with Vasquez or Clady, but feel better about Ramirez than about Franklin. As a rookie he looked it, and only managed to become serviceable this year, then blew it in the Super Bowl.

So IF Clady's fully healthy next fall, yeah, I want a new LG and RT, because we can only expect even the best QB and RBs to compensate for so much poor blocking. Even the best need linemen; the Super Bowl proved that, and if we don't want to be manhandled just as badly each time we face a front four as tough as Seattles and SFs, we need better linemen. Between Franklin and Clarks struggles with quick agile rushers and Clady nearing 30 after another serious injury, a top tackles makes as much sense as a top guard.
I said the Broncos G's were pumped up FB's in 2005 when Shanatan was coach, they were, the G's 285, the T's 295 at best, C's 280.

That was a decade ago.

Beadles sucks, but I have never criticized Franklin, ever. I like the OL, except Beadles and Walton, who are tailor made for those pansy POS lines Shanatan obsessed with.

Btw, Clady is 27.

topscribe
02-14-2014, 10:04 PM
I hate this breaking up of posts in a discussion. But here goes, anyway . . .


Ramirez had committed a number of similar snap problems like the snafu in the Super Bowl. He's adequate at best, mediocre at worst. He missed several assignments this season and got beat off the block but is overlooked because Manning wasn't sacked or knocked down which has more to do with Manning's abilities then Ramirez's blocking. Maybe he'll be much better with a full off-season at the position, but he needs to be challenged, he was given the position purely by default because our top two centers were injured not because he was the right choice.

It doesn't matter why Ramirez got the position. All that matters is how he has done
at it since he got it. I don't care whatsoever about anything else. And I did qualify
it by saying that he has done well for not having played the position before. The
players can always use competitive challenges at any position, no matter who it is.
So I have no problem with that part of it.



Maybe or maybe not, I guess that depends on the coaching staff and how they view it. But since being drafted Franklin has continually been praised for his prowess at right tackle.

That's what I said, in essence: maybe or maybe not. What I said is that I felt
they should at least give it a try and see what happens. It's better than
speculating. Who knows? He might be even better at guard . . .



Denver also doesn't run a full Zone Blocking Scheme like Houston which could explain his improvement, too much of a 'what if' IMHO.
Zone blocking actually involves the middle three more than it does the tackles.
I'm not saying it doesn't involve the tackles at all. It just involves center and
guard more. Nonetheless, the fact that he did a credible job with Houston and
a very good job with Denver before his injury combines to remove some of the
"what if," IMO. I'd give him a try with the right kind of contract, especially if
there's a chance we could end up with the pre-injury Harris . . .
.

luckyseven
02-14-2014, 10:34 PM
That's not true that he was never a factor. Before his injury, he was considered
one of the better RTs in the game.

Once again, you're talking about two years ago and back, anyway. The issue is,
how good has he been lately, like since then? Like now. You know, today. Like
not way back then. And it is my impression that he has done a pretty good job
for Houston. That's the issue: how he does on the field, not how much he
weighs. Too many people put too much weight on numbers, such as how tall is
he, how much does he weigh, how old is he, etc., etc. The first criterion to me
is how he does on the field. If he's good, I don't care about the rest.
.


perhaps in a ZBS scheme he was an OK ORT but nothing more.. his injury issues over the years as well as not being able to crack a starting position leads me to believe he is depth #3 at best on any roster..

he was never that heavy duty, drive them into the ground type blocker, merely a finesse guy the Shanahan wanted.. on the LOS size matters and frankly he does not have it..

BTW his initial injury was even before he got on the roster and IMO has been a factor since.. IE starting just 39 of his 78 games.. hardly someone you can count on being on the field protecting Manning..

topscribe
02-14-2014, 11:46 PM
perhaps in a ZBS scheme he was an OK ORT but nothing more.. his injury issues over the years as well as not being able to crack a starting position leads me to believe he is depth #3 at best on any roster..

he was never that heavy duty, drive them into the ground type blocker, merely a finesse guy the Shanahan wanted.. on the LOS size matters and frankly he does not have it..

BTW his initial injury was even before he got on the roster and IMO has been a factor since.. IE starting just 39 of his 78 games.. hardly someone you can count on being on the field protecting Manning..
Well, it was just a thought. Another thought is moving Clark over to RT. He was a
fair-to-meddlin' LT, and he might be better at the right side, which generally isn't
quite as demanding -- although some teams are beginning to move their pass
rushers around a little more.

But boy, I would like to see them at least try Franklin at LG -- not because he
was necessarily "bad" at RT, but because what that might do for the running
game!
.

luckyseven
02-15-2014, 01:17 AM
Well, it was just a thought. Another thought is moving Clark over to RT. He was a
fair-to-meddlin' LT, and he might be better at the right side, which generally isn't
quite as demanding -- although some teams are beginning to move their pass
rushers around a little more.

But boy, I would like to see them at least try Franklin at LG -- not because he
was necessarily "bad" at RT, but because what that might do for the running
game!
.

Franklin moving to OG will not do much but solve the problem for the coming year..

HE will be a UFA next year and will make loads more money as a OT than he would at OG so he would never stay. We do not have the money to pay him top OG money 6-7 million a year that he would easily make as a OT. so then next year you are for sure looking at filling that spot again.

Fix it now with either a top rookie thus opening up the cap money for the next 4-5 years, and at the same time find another ORT to groom for Franklin departure.
Moving Clark to that side, simply hurts the running game to that side as he is nowhere the run blocker that Franklin is ( a top rated guy in that area).

Clark is what he is, a talented depth guy that can step in and do a good job until the starter comes back.

In the mean time you plan on giving Franklin help with a TE to deal with a chip block on the speed guy..

Does anyone think that maybe Vasquez will be able to help with those inside rushers once he no longer has to worry about helping out with Mannys side of his area of responsibility. Manny will either be replaced( because he is a poor OC as many seem to think) or he will grow into the job with more coaching and strength training.

Hawgdriver
02-15-2014, 03:38 AM
But Top, Franklin is considered to be one of the best right tackles in the NFL

Said Cliff Avril's agent.

Joel
02-15-2014, 12:04 PM
I just happened to think . . . as one possibility to filling the hole, should they
consider moving Franklin to LG, Ryan Harris is entering FA this year, and I
understand he did a pretty good job for Houston. He still makes his home in
Denver. Just a thought . . .
It's a good idea, and that's from someone skeptical of Harris from the start, because I assume every SEC/Notre Dame player only half as good as their invariable hype.

If Duane Brown and Derek Newton weren't excellent OTs in their own right Harris would probably start in Houston, and you're right he's played well when injuries to those regular starters forced him into the lineup. You're also right that we cut him a few years ago because of a back injury that limited his playing time, but he shows no sign of it now, so I'd be happy if he returned. He'd be a cheap improvement on Franklin, thus solving that problem and making Franklins hypothetical move to guard more feasible.

Franklin IS a problem at RT though; as you say, speed rushers exploit his slowness (much as they do Clark on the other side,) and the Super Bowl showed just how devastatingly vulnerable that makes him. Throw in Legwolds note that he had double digit penalties and that's just not a good RT; it's a guy whose stats benefit from Mannings quick reads and throws.

Joel
02-15-2014, 12:46 PM
There's no guarantee that he won't be.
No, but if Clady's healthy a new top OT solves the problem with Franklin; if not, it solves the problem with Cladys lingering injury.


Let me add. Having a true TE that can actually block or better yet two of them (like NE) that can also catch the ball might negate or slow down the speed rush.
Both Dreessen and Tamme are true TEs who block and catch; doing both well is why I like Dreessen so much. The 'Skins game showed the difference that can make; simply replacing JT with Dreessen so he could help Clark put an end to strip-sacks and forced throws, and suddenly the offense that had only scored once in 3 quarters put up 3 TDs in the space of one.


I also beleive that Franklin improved dramatically I've the past years and there is no reason with the current coaching staff and training regiment he does not still have a lot of upside.
He will be even more motivated this coming CONTRACT year to improve.
Let's all stop the Franklin to OG talk and look to bring one in in the Offseason.
Franklin had plenty of room for improvement after his first two years; I don't think it's coincidence that his stats improved so dramatically right after Mannings arrival. Even the best QB can only compensate for so much poor blocking though, hence all the penalties on Franklin and his weakness against speed. I agree the solution to Beadles' failings (and likely departure) at LG is to bring in a top LG, not move a poor RT, but just because Franklin's not the answer at G doesn't mean he's finally, suddenly and inexplicably the answer at RT.


At 28 he could have 10 more years in the league not one or two as most posters would have inferred from your nearing 30 remark.
So 29-28=8? 28 is nearing 30; Opening Day, Clady will be 2 years from 30, and if a 30 year old only has 1-2 years left, that means a 28 year old only has 3-4.


He had a full year off from wear and tear on his body this past season that could indeed add more playing time to his career.
That must be the first time anyone ever suggested a season-ending injury would prolong a career. He got a(lmost a) year off from (more) wear and tear because wear and tear sidelined him.


IIRC even though he was "hobbled" with a leg injury he was high on the list for the probowl.
In 2011? I don't think so; a lot of folks around here openly suggested he was washed up and/or overrated, but last year it quickly became clear the real problem was that his knee injury never had a chance to fully heal during the season, and consequently diminished his play throughout that season. He looked like his old self last year, but then went down with a season-ending injury less than a month into this season; that's why I said he's developing a history of serious injury: Because he is.


According to doctors today a Lis franc injury is rarely a career ender. Contrary to ravages comments. The team will know soon about his availability and how measurable the injury is at this point. I think I'll go with what they say opposed to fan spec.
Look around: This is a fan site, not a team site (in fact, it was specifically created on that basis, in response to unpopular changes at the official team site.)


Now that said I have zero issue with picking up a quality (maybe exprienced) guy that could be used for depth for perhaps all spots on the OL.
Part of what makes that idea so appealing is that we have questions at LG, RT and even C, so there's pretty much NOWHERE adding a top lineman wouldn't improve the team.


I said the Broncos G's were pumped up FB's in 2005 when Shanatan was coach, they were, the G's 285, the T's 295 at best, C's 280.

That was a decade ago.

Beadles sucks, but I have never criticized Franklin, ever. I like the OL, except Beadles and Walton, who are tailor made for those pansy POS lines Shanatan obsessed with.
Shanahan was here till half a decade ago, which is when he drafted Clady, just as he'd previously drafted hulking-but-underperforming George Foster for the other side. His guards tended to be undersized though, yes, and it cost us in short yardage but, as you say, it was no different post-Shanny with Beadles and Walton: That's why, after injury cost Walton the starting C job, a below average backup RG played him right off the roster.


Btw, Clady is 27.
Right, that's why he's nearing 30 rather than at 30: Clady turns 28 the first week of the season, and if 2 years from 30 isn't nearing 30, what IS? The day before his 30th birthday?

MOtorboat
02-15-2014, 12:53 PM
Elite left tackles like Clady aren't done at 32.

And you STILL want Julius Thomas off the field? :tsk:

Joel
02-15-2014, 03:29 PM
Elite left tackles like Clady aren't done at 32.
Not done, but how many with bad wheels are still elite at 32?

And you STILL want Julius Thomas off the field? :tsk:
Didn't say that, just that the notion we lack TEs who block and catch well is belied by Dreessen and (to a lesser extent) Tamme (though the rumor mill says at least one is gone soon.)

MOtorboat
02-15-2014, 03:35 PM
I would be willing to bet, sans breaking his leg or a catastrophic injury, Clady will still be anchoring Denver's offensive line at age 33.

Joel
02-15-2014, 04:25 PM
I would be willing to bet, sans breaking his leg or a catastrophic injury, Clady will still be anchoring Denver's offensive line at age 33.
He's had a leg injury 2 of the last 3 seasons, which dramatically reduced his 2011 performance and cost him nearly all of 2013: At this point, ANY leg injury is serious.

Yet even if Clady DOES play another 10 years like another poster suggested (though I know of few LTs—elite otherwise—who were starting at 38) acquiring another top OT is still worth it as an upgrade for Franklin. The point wasn't "Clady's done," but "there are several good reasons to get a good OT, including Cladys developing injury history, proximity to 30 and Franklins poor performance against speed rushers." Big picture.

luckyseven
02-15-2014, 08:29 PM
No, but if Clady's healthy a new top OT solves the problem with Franklin; if not, it solves the problem with Cladys lingering injury.


Both Dreessen and Tamme are true TEs who block and catch; doing both well is why I like Dreessen so much. The 'Skins game showed the difference that can make; simply replacing JT with Dreessen so he could help Clark put an end to strip-sacks and forced throws, and suddenly the offense that had only scored once in 3 quarters put up 3 TDs in the space of one.


Franklin had plenty of room for improvement after his first two years; I don't think it's coincidence that his stats improved so dramatically right after Mannings arrival. Even the best QB can only compensate for so much poor blocking though, hence all the penalties on Franklin and his weakness against speed. I agree the solution to Beadles' failings (and likely departure) at LG is to bring in a top LG, not move a poor RT, but just because Franklin's not the answer at G doesn't mean he's finally, suddenly and inexplicably the answer at RT.


So 29-28=8? 28 is nearing 30; Opening Day, Clady will be 2 years from 30, and if a 30 year old only has 1-2 years left, that means a 28 year old only has 3-4.


That must be the first time anyone ever suggested a season-ending injury would prolong a career. He got a(lmost a) year off from (more) wear and tear because wear and tear sidelined him.


In 2011? I don't think so; a lot of folks around here openly suggested he was washed up and/or overrated, but last year it quickly became clear the real problem was that his knee injury never had a chance to fully heal during the season, and consequently diminished his play throughout that season. He looked like his old self last year, but then went down with a season-ending injury less than a month into this season; that's why I said he's developing a history of serious injury: Because he is.


Look around: This is a fan site, not a team site (in fact, it was specifically created on that basis, in response to unpopular changes at the official team site.)


Part of what makes that idea so appealing is that we have questions at LG, RT and even C, so there's pretty much NOWHERE adding a top lineman wouldn't improve the team.


Shanahan was here till half a decade ago, which is when he drafted Clady, just as he'd previously drafted hulking-but-underperforming George Foster for the other side. His guards tended to be undersized though, yes, and it cost us in short yardage but, as you say, it was no different post-Shanny with Beadles and Walton: That's why, after injury cost Walton the starting C job, a below average backup RG played him right off the roster.


Right, that's why he's nearing 30 rather than at 30: Clady turns 28 the first week of the season, and if 2 years from 30 isn't nearing 30, what IS? The day before his 30th birthday?

Not sure if you just want to beat the 30 and you are washed up drum. But many of the best OLs over the years in the NFL had players well into their mid 30's.

+ 30 is old for most speed players that need that speed to beat the guy across from them. At the LOS not so much, most OL types just get better with age in their tricks and techniques.

I'm not going to do the research but look at those really good OLs and you might learn something.

luckyseven
02-15-2014, 08:32 PM
Elite left tackles like Clady aren't done at 32.

And you STILL want Julius Thomas off the field? :tsk:
Think he forgets that Sharpe got better at blocking at the LOS when he decided it would prolong his career in Denver under Shanahan. He was never great at it but is much better than JT is at this point.

It is a matter of time before they force that issue.

Jaded
02-16-2014, 10:23 PM
"They can't rush the passer to save their ass, this is true, but we really need to focus on who replaces a 27-year-old franchise LT. And how bout that TE that is a matchup nightmare? We need to get him off the field. And please, don't get me started on the perfectly capable RT, he's not a ProBowler"

"Unless we start replacing our best players we aren't going to win a SB, maybe we should cut that MVP QB and start over".

luckyseven
02-16-2014, 10:41 PM
"They can't rush the passer to save their ass, this is true, but we really need to focus on who replaces a 27-year-old franchise LT".

why are posters beating this drum..

Unless he is still hurt (then clark is OK till he is not) he could have another ten years playing at a high level.

the OL spots are not like RB, WR, CB where hitting the 30 mark makes them a step slower.. it just makes them more experienced, crafty veterans that beat you with technique rather than speed.( which they did not have to start with).

Jaded
02-16-2014, 10:45 PM
why are posters beating this drum..

Unless he is still hurt (then clark is OK till he is not) he could have another ten years playing at a high level.

the OL spots are not like RB, WR, CB where hitting the 30 mark makes them a step slower.. it just makes them more experienced, crafty veterans that beat you with technique rather than speed.( which they did not have to start with).

Perhaps you didn't see the four losses Denver had last year, those were four games in which the Broncos did not win, clearly someone must take the fall and who better than a player that had nothing to do with it.

TXBRONC
02-17-2014, 08:59 AM
He's had a leg injury 2 of the last 3 seasons, which dramatically reduced his 2011 performance and cost him nearly all of 2013: At this point, ANY leg injury is serious.

Yet even if Clady DOES play another 10 years like another poster suggested (though I know of few LTs—elite otherwise—who were starting at 38) acquiring another top OT is still worth it as an upgrade for Franklin. The point wasn't "Clady's done," but "there are several good reasons to get a good OT, including Cladys developing injury history, proximity to 30 and Franklins poor performance against speed rushers." Big picture.

Joel you don't the difference between a foot and leg. Clady was completely healthy by the start 2011 season the problem in 2011 was the quarterback who couldn't read a defesne to save his life. That alone is reason enough give the offensive line a pass.

Joel you really have no clue as what you're talking about and I'm sure that's mostly because you don't watch the games. Franklin is a very right tackle. At times he's struggled against speed rushers but for the most part he's been solid. Apparently you're not aware of the fact that right tackles generally do not have to face a lot speed rushers.

TXBRONC
02-17-2014, 09:01 AM
"They can't rush the passer to save their ass, this is true, but we really need to focus on who replaces a 27-year-old franchise LT. And how bout that TE that is a matchup nightmare? We need to get him off the field. And please, don't get me started on the perfectly capable RT, he's not a ProBowler"

"Unless we start replacing our best players we aren't going to win a SB, maybe we should cut that MVP QB and start over".

It's near to impossible to take Joel seriously.

luckyseven
02-17-2014, 12:51 PM
Joel you don't the difference between a foot and leg. Clady was completely healthy by the start 2011 season the problem in 2011 was the quarterback who couldn't read a defesne to save his life. That alone is reason enough give the offensive line a pass.

Joel you really have no clue as what you're talking about and I'm sure that's mostly because you don't watch the games. Franklin is a very right tackle. At times he's struggled against speed rushers but for the most part he's been solid. Apparently you're not aware of the fact that right tackles generally do not have to face a lot speed rushers.

Many fans also believe that we should have 5 all pro OL guys and a couple pro blowers to back them up.

They fail to get even pro bowlers get beat from time to time. one of the reasons the football Gods invented pass protect RBs to help out, along with real TE's that can do something besides ONLY pass catching .

topscribe
02-17-2014, 07:25 PM
It's near to impossible to take Joel seriously.
Joel does get a little verbose at times, but I believe he does have a lot of good things to say. *shrugs*

Joel
02-18-2014, 09:29 PM
Joel you don't the difference between a foot and leg. Clady was completely healthy by the start 2011 season the problem in 2011 was the quarterback who couldn't read a defesne to save his life. That alone is reason enough give the offensive line a pass.

Joel you really have no clue as what you're talking about and I'm sure that's mostly because you don't watch the games. Franklin is a very right tackle. At times he's struggled against speed rushers but for the most part he's been solid. Apparently you're not aware of the fact that right tackles generally do not have to face a lot speed rushers.
The funniest part is I'M the one who gets bitched at for talking down to people and having an overinflated opinion of my own intelligence. :rolleyes:

Clady hurt his left knee badly and it definitely diminished his play throughout 2011: I know that precisely BECAUSE of watching games. He was slower and less powerful pivoting to stop edge rushers all of 2011; invoking the Broncos version of Godwins Law doesn't change that. This year he hurt his left foot badly and missed nearly the whole season. I don't know how many times he can seriously injure his plant leg and still play "at a high level," but if people want to believe he'll still be an elite LT at 37, no one can stop them.

Regardless, Clark and Franklin have both struggled with edge rushers who regularly abused them from the start of the season to each of our playoff games, especially the humiliating final one.

There are good reasons to look for a new elite OT; historys best passing only scoring ONCE in a 43-8 neutral site beatdown is probably the best one. Yet if folks want to believe that, Clark giving up HALF our sacks (often for points) and Franklin getting double digit penalites is no sign of a problem, or insist it's (inexplicably) the defenses fault, no one can stop them either. Believe what you like, in defiance of what games clearly display each Sunday, and if anyone disagrees, tell them they don't know what they're talking about because they don't watch games.