'Tough Decision' Time Beckons for Broncos

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- And now, the reality of building a championship-contending team in the salary-cap era looms.

"It’s always hard to build depth because you’re dealing with a salary cap. You’ve got to have depth but you’ve got to have young guys that you’re developing," said executive vice president John Elway. "And when you develop the young guys, that gives you the long-term strength of your roster. So it’s a constant process every year."

The price of success is that no more than a small core can be kept together for several years. And this offseason is when the bill comes due, as a collection of first-round draft picks from 2009 and lower-round picks from 2010 are all eligible for unrestricted free agency.

rest - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Tough-Decision-Time-Beckons-for-Broncos/51978e15-3164-42ca-ba1f-4d8fe4da8253

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from same article:


For Moreno, Decker and Beadles, this is the moment where players of their experience and performance sign the most lucrative contract of their careers. Moreno was fourth among NFL running backs in yards from scrimmage in 2013; Decker has back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons and is arguably the best receiver on the market, and Beadles was a Pro Bowler in the 2012 season.

The Broncos' salary-cap constraints, the creation of space to retain other players, the room that must be cleared for this spring's draft class and the need to pursue upgrades from outside in free agency at other positions leads to some difficult decisions for team and player alike.

"There are a lot of tough decisions but they are good decisions to have because that means you have a good football team," Elway said.

But leaving does not appear to be a particularly desirable option to any of the three.

full article - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Tough-Decision-Time-Beckons-for-Broncos/51978e15-3164-42ca-ba1f-4d8fe4da8253

[Northman]

But leaving does not appear to be a particularly desirable option to any of the three.

Which (outside of Beadles) gives me hope they are willing to take less than they would normally get to keep the team intact for another SB run.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Which (outside of Beadles) gives me hope they are willing to take less than they would normally get to keep the team intact for another SB run.


Maybe Moreno, but not Decker. Decker said he would have to put his family first, which usually means $$. Of course Decker is going to say he wants to return. What's he gonna say, "well, Manning is an old fart, so I don't really care where I go, as long as it's top dollar". :D

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Maybe Moreno, but not Decker. Decker said he would have to put his family first, which usually means $$. Of course Decker is going to say he wants to return. What's he gonna say, "well, Manning is an old fart, so I don't really care where I go, as long as it's top dollar". :D

I have not read where Decker said he would have to put his family first. The following is what I have been reading:


"You build relationships, but you know it's not going to be the same next year," Decker said. "Obviously for me, I would love to come back. ... I would love to play here. Unfortunately it's something that isn't always in my control."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000323710/article/broncos-moreno-decker-hopeful-for-return-to-denver

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I have not read where Decker said he would have to put his family first. The following is what I have been reading:



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000323710/article/broncos-moreno-decker-hopeful-for-return-to-denver

I didn't read it. It's in the video where all of the players are being interviewed as they clean out their lockers. They left his comment about putting his family first out of the text\transcript. I can assure you, he said it.

[tripp]

Maybe Moreno, but not Decker. Decker said he would have to put his family first, which usually means $$. Of course Decker is going to say he wants to return. What's he gonna say, "well, Manning is an old fart, so I don't really care where I go, as long as it's top dollar". :D

What boggles my mind is, he came into this league with Orton and Tebow as his QB. You'd think since he had a taste of what a mediocre QB (Orton) is like compared to the best of the best in Manning, you'd take a pay cut, because you're a professional and you're competing to win championships and the fact that you have a love for the game, and not money. The whole "would have to put his family first" mumbo jumbo is B.S, his family is just fine with the money he makes now.


I'd expect this out of a receiver like Stevie Johnson, or Mike Wallace, good receivers with a mediocre QB going somewhere else for the money, because realistically, you're not going to win anything significant on your current team. I just don't get it. I get the fact that it's a business, and to be fair I don't care if Decker comes or goes, just spare us the bull crap about putting your family first. Talk to someone who makes minimum wage supporting a family, then come back to us with the family first garbage.


/end rant.

[Tned]

I think any chance of getting Decker below market price would have been last offseason, if they had offered him an extension, while he still had one year left, then he has to weigh the possibility of an injury, down year, etc. Now that they say, test the open market, and we'll see if we want to make an offer, he's likely to go to the highest bidder.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:


To get a clue about what is going to happen next season, we have to look farther down the road – to 2015.

Why?

Because 2015 may be the beginning of a new Bronco era.

All good Bronco fans know 16 players on the current roster are officially free agents early next month, among them stars like wide receiver Eric Decker, cornerback Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, linebacker Shaun Phillips and running back Knowshon Moreno.

Tough decisions will have to be made on whether or not to bring any or all of the 16 back.

This coming year, however, pales in comparison with what is going to happen in 2015.

In 2015, 28 current Broncos will be free agents, 18 of them unrestricted.

full article - http://predominantlyorange.com/2014/02/07/broncos-actions-2014-may-based-2015-possibilities/

[Buff]

For whatever reason I watched the SoundFx on NFLN last night...

On the Manning pick 6 - not only does Moreno just stand there and let the defender intercept the ball instead of trying to attack the ball at its highest point. But Malcolm Smith - the linebacker - runs away from Moreno like he's standing still.

Ball is ready to assume Moreno's role. We need a complementary speed back to change up the pace.

[Tned]

For whatever reason I watched the SoundFx on NFLN last night...

On the Manning pick 6 - not only does Moreno just stand there and let the defender intercept the ball instead of trying to attack the ball at its highest point. But Malcolm Smith - the linebacker - runs away from Moreno like he's standing still.

Ball is ready to assume Moreno's role. We need a complementary speed back to change up the pace.

Hillis has reportedly dropped 15 lbs and is much quicker.

[BroncoWave]

What boggles my mind is, he came into this league with Orton and Tebow as his QB. You'd think since he had a taste of what a mediocre QB (Orton) is like compared to the best of the best in Manning, you'd take a pay cut, because you're a professional and you're competing to win championships and the fact that you have a love for the game, and not money. The whole "would have to put his family first" mumbo jumbo is B.S, his family is just fine with the money he makes now.


I'd expect this out of a receiver like Stevie Johnson, or Mike Wallace, good receivers with a mediocre QB going somewhere else for the money, because realistically, you're not going to win anything significant on your current team. I just don't get it. I get the fact that it's a business, and to be fair I don't care if Decker comes or goes, just spare us the bull crap about putting your family first. Talk to someone who makes minimum wage supporting a family, then come back to us with the family first garbage.


/end rant.

So Decker should take less money because there are some people who make minimum wage? I'm not sure I follow your logic. As someone who barely makes over minimum wage, I have no problem with Decker or any other athlete going after every dollar they can make. Every athlete is one play away from a career ending injury, so I don't have a problem with an athlete saying they are doing what's best for their family by taking more money, because it could be the last contract they ever sign, and that money can help set his kids and grandkids for life.

[BroncoWave]

Hillis has reportedly dropped 15 lbs and is much quicker.

Who? :confused: ;)

[Buff]

Hillis has reportedly dropped 15 lbs and is much quicker.

Not exactly what I had in mind... But man he was a horse for that one season. I really thought he'd have success elsewhere. I think he got some bad advice somewhere along the line.

[slim]

For whatever reason I watched the SoundFx on NFLN last night...

On the Manning pick 6 - not only does Moreno just stand there and let the defender intercept the ball instead of trying to attack the ball at its highest point. But Malcolm Smith - the linebacker - runs away from Moreno like he's standing still.

Ball is ready to assume Moreno's role. We need a complementary speed back to change up the pace.

I haven't gone back and watched it (and have deleted it from my DVR), but I was pretty pissed at Moreno watching that play live. Dude could have at least tried to knock the pass down.

[BroncoWave]

Not exactly what I had in mind... But man he was a horse for that one season. I really thought he'd have success elsewhere. I think he got some bad advice somewhere along the line.

Those Arkansas folk aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. ;)

[Buff]

I haven't gone back and watched it (and have deleted it from my DVR), but I was pretty pissed at Moreno watching that play live. Dude could have at least tried to knock the pass down.

He definitely froze at the absolute wrong time. The ball is fluttering in mid air and he just stands there waiting for it to come down. But even more striking than that was watching him try to chase Smith to make the tackle. It looked like he was an o-lineman chasing a RB. Like - how could any NFL RB be so slow?

[atwater27]

Who? :confused: ;)

late round draft pick, white boy running back, used to play for (supposedly) your favorite team, on the cover of madden a few years ago.

[Slick]

So Decker should take less money because there are some people who make minimum wage? I'm not sure I follow your logic. As someone who barely makes over minimum wage, I have no problem with Decker or any other athlete going after every dollar they can make. Every athlete is one play away from a career ending injury, so I don't have a problem with an athlete saying they are doing what's best for their family by taking more money, because it could be the last contract they ever sign, and that money can help set his kids and grandkids for life.

When I read his rant I took it as the difference between 6 to 7 million as opposed to 8 to 10 million is still plenty enough to take care of his kids' kids.

I'm not going to crap on Decker for taking top dollar from whoever, but I can see tripp's point.

[Dzone]

Its a tough decision, but Fox must go. He is not a championship coach. His coaching decisions in big games are dreadful. Its time to let him go

[Az Snake]

Those Arkansas folk aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. ;)


I dunno, Tned seems like an extraordinarily sharp tool. :confused:


.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I dunno, Tned seems like an extraordinarily sharp tool. :confused:


.

Forgive my sophomoric response, but you just called Tned a tool. :laugh:

[Lancane]

Forgive my sophomoric response, but you just called Tned a tool. :laugh:

Noticed that as well. I can just see T's face re-reading that a couple times like "Wait, what?"

[Az Snake]

Forgive my sophomoric response, but you just called Tned a tool. :laugh:


Noticed that as well. I can just see T's face re-reading that a couple times like "Wait, what?"


Wow, you two are sharp too....................;)

.

[BroncoWave]

late round draft pick, white boy running back, used to play for (supposedly) your favorite team, on the cover of madden a few years ago.

:lol: Really?

[Joel]

So Decker should take less money because there are some people who make minimum wage? I'm not sure I follow your logic. As someone who barely makes over minimum wage, I have no problem with Decker or any other athlete going after every dollar they can make. Every athlete is one play away from a career ending injury, so I don't have a problem with an athlete saying they are doing what's best for their family by taking more money, because it could be the last contract they ever sign, and that money can help set his kids and grandkids for life.
Decker doesn't make minimum wage, and never will. If he made NFL minimum next year (which he certainly won't; we'll offer him several times that) that would STILL be $730,000. If you're making ACTUAL minimum wage you'd have to work about 20 years to match that, and probably don't have a wife earning millions/year herself. I have some sympathy for NFL players who must shell out cash for doctors, agents, hangers on and lawyers to deal with would-be hangers on who think a benchwarmers 5 year NFL career makes them millionaires. That's not Decker though.

Let's drop the "Gosh, I really WANNA stay, but it's out of my hands" schtick. Denver will offer him more money for one YEAR than most of us will earn in our LIFETIME, and there are no little green men on Saturn controlling him through his fillings; he'll either voluntarily sign it or voluntarily take someone elses offer. Elway knows that as well as anyone and better than most, plus he's got a dozen other key players and roleplayers doing the same.

We just had three other receivers catch 10 TDs, and all three would've had 1000 yds had JT and Welker stayed healthy: Decker's expendable. Hopefully he knows that and takes it the right way; if not, we have Caldwell and the NFL has no shortage of above average WRs (if we're gonna pay through the nose, Boldin's available, and fights for balls MUCH more than Decker does.) The LAST thing I want is to pay Decker so much we can't afford DT next year; DT's a better WR and has earned his payday.

The bottom line's the bottom line: Whomever we pay whatever, we're guaranteed to run out of butter before we run out of bread; that's just the salary cap era. We need to re-sign DRC and Phillips far more than we need Decker, and don't have three other guys who do the same job better (OK, Welker can't stretch the field like Decker, but JT can, TE or not.) Even if one think Ball the longterm answer starting today, he's only one guy; we need Moreno more than Decker, and can get him cheaper.

As far as Beadles, lemme know if he needs a ride to the airport; I'm in Norway, but to have Beadles gone I'd make the trip. :)

[Simple Jaded]

I sincerely hope the Broncos aren't as freaked out about free agency as the parrots writing these articles.

[nevcraw]

decker can go.. he will get good money elsewhere and be 2/3rds the player..

[TXBRONC]

I dunno, Tned seems like an extraordinarily sharp tool. :confused:


.

Hide his guns, booze, and golf clubs and he becomes disoriented.

[TXBRONC]

late round draft pick, white boy running back, used to play for (supposedly) your favorite team, on the cover of madden a few years ago.

Payton Hillis.

[Northman]

When I read his rant I took it as the difference between 6 to 7 million as opposed to 8 to 10 million is still plenty enough to take care of his kids' kids.

I'm not going to crap on Decker for taking top dollar from whoever, but I can see tripp's point.

I can see his point too but shit we can say that about Manning yet everyone has no problem with him making his top dollar. Its just a contradictory position to have to blast one guy for wanting to get what he can financially and then give a pass to someone else who has long gotten paid top dollar and still continues to command top dollar. Pretty hypocritical to me.

[Ravage!!!]

I can see his point too but shit we can say that about Manning yet everyone has no problem with him making his top dollar. Its just a contradictory position to have to blast one guy for wanting to get what he can financially and then give a pass to someone else who has long gotten paid top dollar and still continues to command top dollar. Pretty hypocritical to me.

Very true. If there is ONE guy on the team that can afford more than anyone else to take "less" money to stay with the Broncos... it's Manning, not Decker.

[chazoe60]

I hope we resign Hillis just so we can watch BroncoWave's head explode. :laugh:

[atwater27]

Very true. If there is ONE guy on the team that can afford more than anyone else to take "less" money to stay with the Broncos... it's Manning, not Decker.

If he wants to win the big one again, he should seriously consider it. If he is all bout the money, than good for him, bad for his legacy.

[Ravage!!!]

If he wants to win the big one again, he should seriously consider it. If he is all bout the money, than good for him, bad for his legacy.

His legacy is fine either way. But players don't give away money, no one does. The supposed "Brady took a cut" thing is BS..he guaranteed himself an additional 30 million (or whatever it was).....so he didn't take "less" money. But restructuring his contract sure would be great.

[BroncoWave]

I hope we resign Hillis just so we can watch BroncoWave's head explode. :laugh:

I wouldn't be angry, I would just laugh after he was cut during training camp. :D

[BroncoWave]

For the record , though, i root for all Broncos players to succeed. So if we did bring in Hillis I would be mad at Elway for wasting a roster spot on him, but I would be hopeful that he could help us win.

[BroncoWave]

I can see his point too but shit we can say that about Manning yet everyone has no problem with him making his top dollar. Its just a contradictory position to have to blast one guy for wanting to get what he can financially and then give a pass to someone else who has long gotten paid top dollar and still continues to command top dollar. Pretty hypocritical to me.

Agreed. I've never ever ever been a guy to bash a player for going after all the money they can. It's easy for us to say "why not take a few less million when you already make several millions" but that isn't how rich/successful people think. Rich people don't get rich by willingly taking less money than they can get. They get rich and stay that way by going after every dollar they can.

People also forget that while we are passionate and loyal as fans, this is mostly just a job to the players. Yeah most of them would probably LIKE to stay with the same team and win titles, but at the end of the day they have very short careers and want to get as much cash out of it as they can before their bodies wear out. I will never fault a player for that.

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah.. I don't care if you already have 10 million in the bank. If you are taking 2 million less a year, that is STILL2 million dollars, and that is a LOT of money and they know that its a LOT of money. You don't simply say "well, I don't need it." Doesn't work that way, especially with guys that are just now getting into their real first pay-day. Lets be honest, if an owner could find a way to pay a player less money, they would. There is no loyalty coming from ownerships around the NFL, so there certainly shouldn't be any coming from the players.

[Slick]

I can see his point too but shit we can say that about Manning yet everyone has no problem with him making his top dollar. Its just a contradictory position to have to blast one guy for wanting to get what he can financially and then give a pass to someone else who has long gotten paid top dollar and still continues to command top dollar. Pretty hypocritical to me.

I think Manning is overpaid so don't lump me in with everyone.

[Northman]

I think Manning is overpaid so don't lump me in with everyone.

Oh i wasnt trying to lump you in, just throwing that out there because thats kind of how Tripp came across in his post to me.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Why do you believe Manning is overpaid when we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB?

[Slick]

Why do you believe Manning is overpaid when we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB?

It has nothing to do with how good he is and more to do with him taking up roughly 15% of the team's cap space.

It is what it is now. The owners have started paying "elite" QB's 20 million per year.

He's a great QB, I'm glad we have him. It is just a personal belief of mine that athletes are overpaid. Nothing more than that.

[TimHippo]

Why do you believe Manning is overpaid when we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB?

Manning would never have come here if he wasn't "overpaid"

To cut his salary now would be a bait and switch.

[Joel]

I can see his point too but shit we can say that about Manning yet everyone has no problem with him making his top dollar. Its just a contradictory position to have to blast one guy for wanting to get what he can financially and then give a pass to someone else who has long gotten paid top dollar and still continues to command top dollar. Pretty hypocritical to me.
Manning's not the 3rd best QB on our team: If Osweiler AND Dysert were better, we'd let someone else pay Manning $20 million. Conversely, if Decker were under contract 3 more years we wouldn't even be discussing this. Manning and the Broncos have the option of restructuring, which many (including several in this thread alone) endorse, but it's a different situation.


Why do you believe Manning is overpaid when we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB?
I'll almost certainly regret this, but many people feel we'd already made the playoffs without an elite QB, or even an almost average one. When did Mark Sanchez, Colin Kaepernick and Joe Flacco become elite QBs? When their teams made the playoffs? Is it too late to trade Peyton for his equally elite but younger brother?

It's not fair nor realistic to ask a pay cut from a guy who just broke multiple season records, helped the team break several more and got us to our first SB in 15 years. Especially when Manning isn't our third best player at his position and won't walk without a new contract, let alone one several times what he made this year (all of which are true of Decker.)

The basic problem (other than the fact we have other key FAs to sign and still have other holes to fill) is that Decker's got the career resume to be a #1 WR on most teams, but Denver won't make him one OR pay him like one as long as we have DT, JT and Welker. He's NOT EVEN second fiddle in Denver, and our other needs demand paying our #2 WR like a #2 WR, so Decker's almost certain to go where he'll get the majority of passes and paid accordingly. If he wants a SB badly enough to take the role and salary we can afford, great; if not, plenty of other #2s will.

[Ravage!!!]

Manning would never have come here if he wasn't "overpaid"

To cut his salary now would be a bait and switch.

Well, for 1 Manning didn't come to Denver because we paid the most money. Manning was going to get this amount of money, if not more, no matter WHERE he went.

Two, no one is talking about "cutting his pay." If anything, people are saying we need to renegotiate because his salary is such a large portion of our cap. To give an example of the difference that makes, because the Seahawks have a 3rd round starting QB, they were able to go out and sign guys lke Avril.

Manning isn't "overpaid" in the sense that he's being paid what a guy of his quality and skill is paid. But it's a "good and bad." GOOD because you have one of the very best in the NFL, and that ALWAYS makes you a Super Bowl contender. Bad, because it's hard to spend the money to keep guys on the team like Decker, or sign some much needed help at other positions.

Actors get paid 25 million to work on a movie that they work on for a few months.... Manning gets paid 20 million a year for a 12 month job and we get a LOT more entertainment from Manning than we do a 2 hour movie. SO I personally dont' believe they are overpaid.

[Ravage!!!]

I'll almost certainly regret this, but many people feel we'd already made the playoffs without an elite QB
yeah, you shouldn't make statements like that, because if its MANY (which I would change to VERY few), then there needs to be a football 101 class given at the front of the stadium so that people can see the difference between getting "lucky" at 8-8 and being where we are today.,

[chazoe60]

Manning would never have come here if he wasn't "overpaid"

To cut his salary now would be a bait and switch.
Manning didn't even start talking money until he picked a team.



Te bow fans are dumb.

[Joel]

yeah, you shouldn't make statements like that, because if its MANY (which I would change to VERY few), then there needs to be a football 101 class given at the front of the stadium so that people can see the difference between getting "lucky" at 8-8 and being where we are today.,
Okay, Keapernick's been to 3 straight NFCCGs: Is he elite?
Before this year, Flacco went to 2 straight AFCCGs, and won last years SB: Elite?
Before THAT, Sanchez went to 2 straight AFCCGs: Elite?

I'm not saying our defense is as good as theirs (though I genuinely think it's only a great MLB from being as good or better,) but the point is an elite or even average QB is not a prerequisite of even a CC or SB win, let alone just making the playoffs. If the elite standard is just making the playoffs more than one time that can be dismissed as luck, there are MANY elite QBs almost no on but homers would call elite. Roethlisberger's elite? Schaub? Dalton?

[Ravage!!!]

Okay, Keapernick's been to 3 straight NFCCGs: Is he elite?
Before this year, Flacco went to 2 straight AFCCGs, and won last years SB: Elite?
Before THAT, Sanchez went to 2 straight AFCCGs: Elite?

I'm not saying our defense is as good as theirs (though I genuinely think it's only a great MLB from being as good or better,) but the point is an elite or even average QB is not a prerequisite of even a CC or SB win, let alone just making the playoffs. If the elite standard is just making the playoffs more than one time that can be dismissed as luck, there are MANY elite QBs almost no on but homers would call elite. Roethlisberger's elite? Schaub? Dalton?

a Prerequisit to win, or always be a Super Bowl contender?

You keep bringign up QBs that have relied on their defeneses to have the MICRO amount of success they have had in the NFL as an example of "not needing an Elite." Sanchez is your example/proof on how teams don't NEED a top QB? Look what happens to that team when they DO NOT have a top defense.


Its MUCH MUCH harder to build a defense like Seattle (or the Jets had for a couple years) to make up for a weak QB than it is to win with a Top QB and a mediocre defense. Can it be done, absolutely. It has been done. But how many years were the 49ers BAD BAD before the last couple? How many top picks did they need? Yes, it gives a team an advantage to now pay the rookie contracts to the QBs compared to the top guys...but when I go into the season i KNOW that the Brady's, Manning's, Luck's, Brees', Rodgers'... are ALWAYS going to be contenders....... no matter how BAD the defense is.

I can build a team around a stud QB and be CONTENDERS much much faster and MUCH more consistently than I can by trying to build a defense and keep it TOPS in order to make up for the lack of skill a bad QB.

I'm glad you brought up Dalton. Look at their defense.... and how well did that team do? They have a STUD Defense in Cinci.. yet just not quite GOOD ENOUGH to make up for poor QB play. Rothlesburger may not be in the Manning club, but he's just a small teir below. I need much LESS of a defense with Rothlesburger than I do with Schaub.

[Simple Jaded]

Manning would never have come here if he wasn't "overpaid"

To cut his salary now would be a bait and switch.

This.......is either confusing or stupid.

[Simple Jaded]

Okay, Keapernick's been to 3 straight NFCCGs: Is he elite?
Before this year, Flacco went to 2 straight AFCCGs, and won last years SB: Elite?
Before THAT, Sanchez went to 2 straight AFCCGs: Elite?

I'm not saying our defense is as good as theirs (though I genuinely think it's only a great MLB from being as good or better,) but the point is an elite or even average QB is not a prerequisite of even a CC or SB win, let alone just making the playoffs. If the elite standard is just making the playoffs more than one time that can be dismissed as luck, there are MANY elite QBs almost no on but homers would call elite. Roethlisberger's elite? Schaub? Dalton?
Yes, Roethlisberger is elite.

[Joel]

THAT statement is manifestly false.

a Prerequisit to win, or always be a Super Bowl contender?

You keep bringign up QBs that have relied on their defeneses to have the MICRO amount of success they have had in the NFL as an example of "not needing an Elite." Sanchez is your example/proof on how teams don't NEED a top QB? Look what happens to that team when they DO NOT have a top defense.


Its MUCH MUCH harder to build a defense like Seattle (or the Jets had for a couple years) to make up for a weak QB than it is to win with a Top QB and a mediocre defense. Can it be done, absolutely. It has been done. But how many years were the 49ers BAD BAD before the last couple? How many top picks did they need? Yes, it gives a team an advantage to now pay the rookie contracts to the QBs compared to the top guys...but when I go into the season i KNOW that the Brady's, Manning's, Luck's, Brees', Rodgers'... are ALWAYS going to be contenders....... no matter how BAD the defense is.

I can build a team around a stud QB and be CONTENDERS much much faster and MUCH more consistently than I can by trying to build a defense and keep it TOPS in order to make up for the lack of skill a bad QB.

I'm glad you brought up Dalton. Look at their defense.... and how well did that team do? They have a STUD Defense in Cinci.. yet just not quite GOOD ENOUGH to make up for poor QB play. Rothlesburger may not be in the Manning club, but he's just a small teir below. I need much LESS of a defense with Rothlesburger than I do with Schaub.
Sure, it's easier; that's why the AFL did it that way: They didn't have the money or prestige to get the best players, because most went to the NFL.

Yet it's not the ONLY way, and tons of teams have made the playoffs without even average QBs; many even won SBs. I only listed the most recent and successful ones because I didn't want to debate whether "the NFL has fundamentally and radically changed since Doug Williams and Jim McMahon."

Here's the thing though: The biggest reason it's easier to build a team around a stud QB than build a stud team and plug in a mediocre QB is that it's FASTER. Find a great QB, one or two good OTs and WRs, and you're pretty much done; you'll need more to win a SB, but those 4-5 guys will get you to the playoffs. Skip the QB to add a great G or two, great DT or two, great DE or three, great LB corps, at least one great CB and safety, then a great RB, and we're talking LOTS more players. Probably 3-4 draft classes, and that's if you hit more than you miss.

The funny thing about the draft though is that until you have that SB contender team, it's not really in your best interest to grab a great QB, OT and WR with your crappy 4-12 draft picks and rocket to a 9-7 playoff berth, because your TEAM still sucks, and now you're basically drafting in the BOTTOM ten instead of the TOP ten. If you just want to sell tickets, sure, a great QB and WR will do that; Stafford and Megatron sell lots of tickets, and have even made the playoffs.

If you want trophies though, build a great core team with those great once-in-a-decade draft picks you endured a season of Hell to get, and be willing to endure one or two MORE for similarly excellent draft picks. You can't be sure each draft class will have multiple franchise QBs (or even any,) so don't be afraid to pull the trigger when you think you see one, but it shouldn't be the top priority, because if you parlay 2-3 losing seasons into a great TEAM in its mid-twenties you might not even NEED a top QB. In that sense, SF and Seattle are EXACTLY the right model.


Yes, Roethlisberger is elite.
Something tells me we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

[Ravage!!!]

where are all the teams winning SUper Bowls with the 'average' QBs..... and yes.. its FASTER. Welcome to the era of Free agency and salary cap. You don't have YEARS to build a top team. But when you have a top QB, you are going to be a contender for 12 years! Thats HUGE.

Ask the 49ers how long they have waited to win a Super Bowl since their last. Ask the Cowboys what its like when you can't find that replacement for Aikman. Ask buffalo bills what its like to go to 4 Super bowls in a row, and then not find the QB to take snaps. How many Super Bowls has Seattle won? How many Super Bowls did NE win before Brady? How many Super Bowls did the Pittsburgh Steelers win, a team that i KNOWN for their good defenses, between Bradshaw and Rothlesburger?

Having a top QB is ABSOLUTELY KEY to being a consistent, and probable, winner.....period.

[Joel]

where are all the teams winning SUper Bowls with the 'average' QBs..... and yes.. its FASTER. Welcome to the era of Free agency and salary cap. You don't have YEARS to build a top team. But when you have a top QB, you are going to be a contender for 12 years! Thats HUGE.

Ask the 49ers how long they have waited to win a Super Bowl since their last. Ask the Cowboys what its like when you can't find that replacement for Aikman. Ask buffalo bills what its like to go to 4 Super bowls in a row, and then not find the QB to take snaps. How many Super Bowls has Seattle won? How many Super Bowls did NE win before Brady? How many Super Bowls did the Pittsburgh Steelers win, a team that i KNOWN for their good defenses, between Bradshaw and Rothlesburger?

Having a top QB is ABSOLUTELY KEY to being a consistent, and probable, winner.....period.
Are you seriously arguing that Pittsburghs 6-2 SB record with Bradshaw/Roethlisberger and great blocking, running and D is an INDICTMENT of that model? It's the best perfomance in NFL history; only Dallas' 5-3 record comes close, and why is it behind Pitt? BECAUSE PITT'S 2-1 AGAINST THEM! Whose side are you on here? :confused:

With Roethlisberger alone they've been to 3 of the last 9 and won 2, despite two different coaches: Because they CONSISTENTLY had a GREAT D AND RUNNING GAME. They might've beaten GB if they hadn't lost their rookie C for the season halfway through the playoffs; it was still close. They and NE have been the most CONSISTENT SB contenders of the decade, though the Ravens were just behind with the likes of Flacco and Boller; their BEST QB was Steve McNair, when they were LEAST competitive.

Where are all the SB winning teams with average QBs? I just named two, and one was defending champ till last week; if the Ravens hadn't won that SB with a mediocre QB, guess who would've: San Francisco, with the mediocre QB who replaced the mediocre QB who took them to the previous NFCCG. That's not even counting Grossman and Delhomme reaching but losing SBs.

The cap didn't break Pitt or Baltimore and hasn't broken the '9ers either; age broke the first two, but it doesn't look like it'll be a factor for SF or Seattle anytime soon. It really does come down to whether a team wants to go all in—and all or nothing—to win 1 or 2 SBs with a hotshot QBs and a good WR or two, or invest the time, money and personnel to build a TEAM that can compete for a decade. At this point it's moot; we don't have cash to get all the FA stars needed to fill our remaining holes AND pay the young draft picks whose contracts are expiring.

We just have to hope we can finally get there with our last legit shot so we come away with a 43-8 shaming in front of the whole planet.

[Joel]

Oh, btw, since we're talking CONSISTENCY, there's ONE team other than Pitt and Baltimore that's been an annual contender for the past decade: NE, with elite QB Tom Brady. What's their SB record since their D and offensive line went south on them? 0-2? Even with the the (formerly) greatest offense ever? Eli just that much more elite than Brady?

[Simple Jaded]

I'm lost, are we actually arguing that having an elite QB is a bad thing?

This is beyond stupid, the Broncos just lost in the SB to a team built with a ton of undrafted FA's and low round picks, so to argue that having an elite QB would somehow impede that same process is literally too stupid for words.

If a ton of high priced FA's is what you yearn for the Redskins and Cowboys routinely win the Off Season Bowl.

Btw, DRC, Wes Welker, Louis Vasquez, Terrence Knighton and Shaun Phillips say hi.

[Lancane]

What is an elite quarterback? If you ask most coaches that question the answer is simple, it's a quarterback that is good enough to make up for the short comings of his team and even at times shoulder them to victory if the need arises. I would say that the difference is that at a certain point that elite and franchise quarterbacks become one in the same or near enough that it makes a difference. Of the top fifteen quarterbacks in the league in 2013 only one or two I would not consider elite, Cam Newton and Carson Palmer, both need superior defenses to be effective. The others on that list: Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Tom Brady, Andy Dalton, Ryan Tannehill, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, Andrew Luck and Eli Manning. Nick Foles, Jay Cutler and Aaron Rodgers should be on that list but due to various issues were limited, all three considered Franchise or Elite quarterbacks. And I would take any one those aforementioned quarterbacks over the likes of Newton, Wilson, Griffin, Kapernick, Smith or Manuel. Those quarterbacks could not carry their teams anywhere without the right elements, especially better or elite defenses. In fact, Kaepernick, Wilson and Newton all three had Top 5 defenses, their offenses? Not one had a Top 15 Offense, not one had a Top 20 passing offense. Take away the run game and the defense and those miracle quarterbacks are liabilities.

[Joel]

I'm lost, are we actually arguing that having an elite QB is a bad thing?
So, no, we're not arguing it's bad to have an elite QB. We're arguing whether:

1) It's INDISPENSABLE to have an elite QB and, of so, 2) is it enough to get the playoff berth impossible without an elite QB, or do we demand more?

The answer to the first is, "No; despite NEVER HAVING AN ELITE QB IN THE TEAMS HISTORY, Pittsburgh WON THE MOST SBS EVER, are tied for most appearances, and have been CONSISTENTLY COMPETITIVE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS!" That should pretty much settle it without need to point out last years SB was mediocre QB vs. mediocre QB.

Yet even if we ignore that, for the sake of argument, anyone feel vindicated by SB XLVIII? Sure, we got the crap kicked out of us in front of the world for 3½ solid hours, but hey, OUR QBs a first ballot HoFer and "we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB;" the QB of the team who handed us our collective heads is runt scrub not even drafted till the THIRD round. Yet his team made the playoffs two years straight and just had a blowout SB win, even though that's impossible without an elite QB; curious....


This is beyond stupid, the Broncos just lost in the SB to a team built with a ton of undrafted FA's and low round picks, so to argue that having an elite QB would somehow impede that same process is literally too stupid for words.
Yeah, but that's not the argument, just a straw man; obviously the Seahawks would be far better with a Manning or Brady, but the point is they were still good enough with Wilson to destroy a team with Manning, and beat Bradys AFCCG runner up last year. Even the best QB can't win SBs singlehandedly (ask Elway and Marino,) if only because there's a good chance they'll face an equally good QB with a BETTER supporting cast. Yet if that supporting cast is good enough, even average QBs can beat elite ones (ask Doug Williams.)


If a ton of high priced FA's is what you yearn for the Redskins and Cowboys routinely win the Off Season Bowl.

Btw, DRC, Wes Welker, Louis Vasquez, Terrence Knighton and Shaun Phillips say hi.
Oh, yeah, I agree Elway's done an amazing job in FA. Here's the thing though: Between Mannings contract and the young stars whose contracts expire this year or next, half the guys you just named are no longer under contract. I'll be disappointed if we don't re-sign them, but DRC in particular won't come cheap. The real bottom line though is that even all the FA home runs we DID get weren't enough to prevent a SB annihilation, much less win it: We had too many holes, and too little money to fill all or even most with a FA Pro Bowler.

We're not debating whether an elite QB's desirable, we're debating whether it's better to get an elite team and plug in a QB or get an elite QB and plug in a team.

[Lancane]

So, no, we're not arguing it's bad to have an elite QB. We're arguing whether:

1) It's INDISPENSABLE to have an elite QB and, of so, 2) is it enough to get the playoff berth impossible without an elite QB, or do we demand more?

The answer to the first is, "No; despite NEVER HAVING AN ELITE QB IN THE TEAMS HISTORY, Pittsburgh WON THE MOST SBS EVER, are tied for most appearances, and have been CONSISTENTLY COMPETITIVE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS!" That should pretty much settle it without need to point out last years SB was mediocre QB vs. mediocre QB.

Most analysts, scouts, etc. consider Terry Bradshaw and Ben Roethlisberger as elite quarterbacks. Bradshaw's numbers are skewed due to his love-hate relationship with his coach. Ben Roethlisberger's stats are skewed due to the change in personnel and various other changes that have occurred, yet both have two rings or more and are major differences in the victories they've obtained.

Sorry Joel, but saying that neither was elite is in poor taste, that's like you saying Elway isn't elite because he only had so many 400 yard passing games compared to Manning, but the sport was different as was the culture.


Yet even if we ignore that, for the sake of argument, anyone feel vindicated by SB XLVIII? Sure, we got the crap kicked out of us in front of the world for 3½ solid hours, but hey, OUR QBs a first ballot HoFer and "we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB;" the QB of the team who handed us our collective heads is runt scrub not even drafted till the THIRD round. Yet his team made the playoffs two years straight and just had a blowout SB win, even though that's impossible without an elite QB; curious....

There are various different elements that led to the beatdown that Denver suffered, Manning was doing anything and everything in his power to get the team back in it. Problem was at that point Seattle was putting on a dominant show and deflated his best efforts and everyone lost heart. I've said before that the coaches are responsible and I stand by that, the defense was ready enough in the first half, but come the second? I believe the coaches made the first mistake by not preparing correctly and that trickled down to the players, by the time changes could be made, their hearts just weren't in it any longer.

As for the elite quarterback argument, the simple fact is that only a handful of teams have won the Super Bowl without an elite or franchise capable quarterback since the 90's and that trend has pretty much been continuous. Let me ask you a question? What would have happened if Seattle's defense **** the bed? Do you think Marshawn Lynch and Russell Wilson could have led that team to victory? That is the difference, because without his defense, Russell Wilson is another gimmick quarterback that could be more of a liability then anything and Denver had Lynch's number early.


Yeah, but that's not the argument, just a straw man; obviously the Seahawks would be far better with a Manning or Brady, but the point is they were still good enough with Wilson to destroy a team with Manning, and beat Bradys AFCCG runner up last year. Even the best QB can't win SBs singlehandedly (ask Elway and Marino,) if only because there's a good chance they'll face an equally good QB with a BETTER supporting cast. Yet if that supporting cast is good enough, even average QBs can beat elite ones (ask Doug Williams.)

What did Doug Williams do besides help Washington win that one Super Bowl? Did he become the starter in Washington, did he play for long as such? Actually Doug Williams life was never better then that one game and most consider what he did to be a fluke, especially when you look at what he did since that victory. While elite or franchise quarterbacks can't do it all, if our coaches had not fallen asleep on the job and the offense had countered their defense perfectly and been on even keel, then that Super Bowl come halftime is near damn tied.


Oh, yeah, I agree Elway's done an amazing job in FA. Here's the thing though: Between Mannings contract and the young stars whose contracts expire this year or next, half the guys you just named are no longer under contract. I'll be disappointed if we don't re-sign them, but DRC in particular won't come cheap. The real bottom line though is that even all the FA home runs we DID get weren't enough to prevent a SB annihilation, much less win it: We had too many holes, and too little money to fill all or even most with a FA Pro Bowler.

Every year a football team transitions from old to new and new to old. It's the nature of the business, but the reason I believe that Elway is playing the Cool Hand Luke with these players is that his one goal is to have long-term contracts with those that are cornerstones of the franchise. If Rodgers-Cromartie get's a deal, look for it to be a four to five year deal that doesn't hurt the team fiscally over the length of the contract, just like Vasquez and Clady, I suspect Thomas and Thomas will end up with similar years offered and that is how he we keep them competitive, by maintaining the stars, the backbone of the team intact as much as possible. Von Miller could end up the same with a good year, but if he has a good year but off the field issues, look for them to tag him and trade him and then Trevathan earns his years. Elway has been playing this smart, that is all. Osweiler will get an extension if they feel he is the quarterback of the future and because he is yet to prove it on the field that will be relatively cost effective.


We're not debating whether an elite QB's desirable, we're debating whether it's better to get an elite team and plug in a QB or get an elite QB and plug in a team.

Pick your poison, but this same team with a quarterback of lesser talent (Tebow) only won eight games and most were due to his legs and in the end the elite quarterbacked team destroyed us and kicked our butts out of the playoffs. We had a top ten defense according to certain categories and the top rushing attack in the NFL, in many ways similar to Seattle, a tad different, but close enough that most fans will never accept a gimmick quarterback over the likes of a franchise capable or elite quarterback ever again.

I touched on Elway's thinking, I want to expand that a little bit; see the way he is thinking is much how the Broncos of the 80's and 90's were built, based on key players, then if there are changes at other roster spots the unit in whole doesn't miss a beat, much like Fox has been going on about the next guy step it up scenarios. Denver lost some good players between their back-to-back Super Bowl victories and didn't skip a beat. That is much what I expect is going to happen, that is why I see certain players being given the long-term deals and the certain others allowed to walk. Seattle for all it's bluster will be raped soon by other teams looking to strip them of their talent. Denver on the other hand will let them strip Denver but not of who they consider the key players to continually being competitive.

[Simple Jaded]

So, no, we're not arguing it's bad to have an elite QB. We're arguing whether:

1) It's INDISPENSABLE to have an elite QB and, of so, 2) is it enough to get the playoff berth impossible without an elite QB, or do we demand more?

The answer to the first is, "No; despite NEVER HAVING AN ELITE QB IN THE TEAMS HISTORY, Pittsburgh WON THE MOST SBS EVER, are tied for most appearances, and have been CONSISTENTLY COMPETITIVE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS!" That should pretty much settle it without need to point out last years SB was mediocre QB vs. mediocre QB.

Yet even if we ignore that, for the sake of argument, anyone feel vindicated by SB XLVIII? Sure, we got the crap kicked out of us in front of the world for 3½ solid hours, but hey, OUR QBs a first ballot HoFer and "we wouldn't have even been in the playoffs without an elite QB;" the QB of the team who handed us our collective heads is runt scrub not even drafted till the THIRD round. Yet his team made the playoffs two years straight and just had a blowout SB win, even though that's impossible without an elite QB; curious....


Yeah, but that's not the argument, just a straw man; obviously the Seahawks would be far better with a Manning or Brady, but the point is they were still good enough with Wilson to destroy a team with Manning, and beat Bradys AFCCG runner up last year. Even the best QB can't win SBs singlehandedly (ask Elway and Marino,) if only because there's a good chance they'll face an equally good QB with a BETTER supporting cast. Yet if that supporting cast is good enough, even average QBs can beat elite ones (ask Doug Williams.)


Oh, yeah, I agree Elway's done an amazing job in FA. Here's the thing though: Between Mannings contract and the young stars whose contracts expire this year or next, half the guys you just named are no longer under contract. I'll be disappointed if we don't re-sign them, but DRC in particular won't come cheap. The real bottom line though is that even all the FA home runs we DID get weren't enough to prevent a SB annihilation, much less win it: We had too many holes, and too little money to fill all or even most with a FA Pro Bowler.

We're not debating whether an elite QB's desirable, we're debating whether it's better to get an elite team and plug in a QB or get an elite QB and plug in a team.

First of all, unlike you, and I can't speak for everybody but I don't need anybody's ******* validation.

Second, you've been whining about how Manning is ruining any chance of keeping or signing gobs and gobs of FA's for years! As somebody as obscenely verbose as you should know you have a tendency to confuse the rest of us, mostly because you talk in circles and constantly contradict yourself. In this very post you go from claiming the argument isn't that having an elite QB isn't a bad thing to babbling, yet again, on how that QB's contract is going to be the undoing of the good things John Elway has done. So if that's not the argument you are making it would certainly be an exception.

Third, this team doesn't have as many holes as you constantly insist it has, they made it to the ******* Super Bowl.

Lastly, if it makes you feel better, you're right. You're always right, Joel, pat yourself on the back. :golfclap:

Edit, seriously, I'm just dumbfounded by the notion that Denver somehow has to "vindicate" the presence of Peyton Manning on the roster. Like I said, that's literally too stupid for words to describe. I'm also dumbfounded that the Broncos haven't signed enough FA ProBowlers to suit you, but maybe you could take a look at the PB roster and tell us how many '12-'13 FA's on it that want anything to do with a Manningless Denver Broncos.

[Lancane]

First of all, unlike you, and I can't speak for everybody but I don't need anybody's ******* validation.
Liar, you love it when we recognize your posts and fawn over your intellect! ;)


Second, you've been whining about how Manning is ruining any chance of keeping or signing gobs and gobs of FA's for years! As somebody as obscenely verbose as you should know you have a tendency to confuse the rest of us, mostly because you talk in circles and constantly contradict yourself. In this very post you go from claiming the argument isn't that having an elite QB isn't a bad thing to babbling, yet again, on how that QB's contract is going to be the undoing of the good things John Elway has done. So if that's not the argument you are making it would certainly be an exception.

This can be attributed to the preference of each individual fan, some are more offensive minded, some balanced and others are more defensive minded, and then there are those who see a team reach the pinnacle and believe every team should follow the blueprint. I admit that I like Manning myself, but I also think this will be his last year in Denver, win, lose or draw. I believe his contract with bonuses, etc. jumps up by about five or so million a year for the final two years and the Broncos will eventually want to see what they have in Oz, if anything. I don't regret Manning coming to Denver, if nothing more then reversing the culture once more and validating the Broncos as an AFC Powerhouse, that and helping certain individuals evolve, such as D. Thomas, B. Osweiler, M. Ball, J. Thomas, the education was well worth it.


Third, this team doesn't have as many holes as you constantly insist it has, they made it to the ******* Super Bowl.

This is where I disagree with you Jaded and I will explain. Say Denver did not sign Manning, say we still had Orton, do you believe we'd have been the #1 seed back-to-back as well as back-to-back AFCW Champions or even make it to the Super Bowl? See, I don't, I think Manning is a major part of our success not the team in whole. I think offensively, Denver would find some success, too much talent in various positions to not find some, but defensively? Von Miller is literally the only elite player we had, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie was nearest to that level and he was rebounding from mediocrity. The team in whole can be uprgraded to offer better chances, keeping it at it's current level could be as much a liability as having Tebow under center. Every team wants to improve as much as possible year in and year out despite the win-loss column, because the ultimate prize is not second place or simply the playoffs.


Lastly, if it makes you feel better, you're right. You're always right, Joel, pat yourself on the back. :golfclap:
I know Joel can be exasperating with his posts, but sometimes there is some indepth wisdom to be taken from them. Not always, but some times. In the end he's nothing more then another passionate Broncos' fan who feels that his ideals are better or could be more successful then what the team is doing. We're all guilty of that, even me and if we cared too little we'd be **** fans...lol.


Edit, seriously, I'm just dumbfounded by the notion that Denver somehow has to "vindicate" the presence of Peyton Manning on the roster. Like I said, that's literally too stupid for words to describe. I'm also dumbfounded that the Broncos haven't signed enough FA ProBowlers to suit you, but maybe you could take a look at the PB roster and tell us how many '12-'13 FA's on it that want anything to do with a Manningless Denver Broncos.

The Broncos don't have to vindicate a damn thing to us, but eventually it may come down to vindicating the path they're taking if the results are less then expectations. I believe Manning has proven why he's on the roster and worth the money, so it makes any argument moot at this point. Denver doesn't need to ink several FA Pro-Bowl caliber players, but again they need to improve Jaded, whether that is adding one elite free agent and drafting another, but Denver has holes from a talent standpoint, especially defensively – while solid, the front seven is questionable without Miller and even then doesn't have elite talent, the defensive backfield was already questionable with DRC, now without him? The offensive line could use more talent, but other then that few deficiencies on offense can be pointed out.

Just my two cents!

[whiteniko]

Reading all these long posts is giving me a headache.
After the Tebow experiment (a decision which I personally applauded), so it's either Manning or draft a rookie QB. In hindsight AND HINDSIGHT ONLY, would this team be much better off with drafting Russel Wilson and his peanut of a rookie contract and a boatload of cap space to sign other players? Sure, but one can not use the the end result to justify the initial decision making process. So which would any rationale football executive choose? HOF QB with some risk or an unproven 2nd or 3rd rounder?

[Simple Jaded]

I hope Manning signs another 5-year extension.

[Apollo]

If Peyton had won the Super Bowl we'd be calling him the second best of all time on this forum. Put Peyton on the Seahawks and Wilson on the Broncos for the Super Bowl, do you really think the results would have been any different?

When you have the chance, you always get the best player possible in the position you have a need in.

[TXBRONC]

I hope Manning signs another 5-year extension.

Although I'm reasonably sure you're kidding around nevertheless I don't think he'll be around quite that long given what he said after the Broncos had played the Giants.