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View Full Version : Is Trindon Holliday worth it?



reimx007
02-06-2014, 09:34 AM
I think not. I'm sure most of us fans hold our breath when he has the ball. We always knew there was a risk with him, but now its sort of "what have you done for me lately." And its not only the fact that he is fumble prone, he does one thing (doesnt even return punts anymore). I know we dont pay him much, but for me, he only takes up a roster spot that we could fill with someone who contributes more.

I love the guys personality and his energy. I'm sure he's a great teammate, but is he worth the roster spot next year?

Tned
02-06-2014, 09:39 AM
I think not. I'm sure most of us fans hold our breath when he has the ball. We always knew there was a risk with him, but now its sort of "what have you done for me lately." And its not only the fact that he is fumble prone, he does one thing (doesnt even return punts anymore). I know we dont pay him much, but for me, he only takes up a roster spot that we could fill with someone who contributes more.

I love the guys personality and his energy. I'm sure he's a great teammate, but is he worth the roster spot next year?

If they can't trust him to return punts, then I think much of his value is gone. He still has the chance to return a KO, I think he did it in the Bal loss last year, and had one called back in one of the playoff games this year, but he was much more valuable when returning punts as well.

I know I cringe every time I see him back there for a punt return, because he muffs far too many.

BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 09:58 AM
MO?

chazoe60
02-06-2014, 09:59 AM
No. He needs to go.

MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 10:12 AM
MO?

I'll take the two turnovers to go with the two touchdowns.

But I don't know what his contract status is.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:16 AM
I honestly don't see how you can even argue that he is still worth keeping. He was damn lucky his called fumble in the Super Bowl was reversed, because if it happens a split second earlier it's a fumble. As others have said, once it came playoff time the coaches didn't even trust him to return punts anymore. They'd rather put a key cog in our offense back there and risk him getting hurt. That speaks volumes.

I also lost count of how many times he decided to take a KO back 9 yards deep just to get stuffed at the 12. I don't know what changed from last season to this one, but his decision making and ball security both got worse, and the TDs went down.

I would MUCH rather bring in a guy with a little less explosiveness but who can hold onto the ball, make solid decisions, and contribute in other areas of the team. If there's no one we can pick up in FA who fits the bill, I'd spend a mid to late round draft pick on it.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:18 AM
I'll take the two turnovers to go with the two touchdowns.

But I don't know what his contract status is.

Mo, stop pretending like "only two turnovers" describes how well he handles the ball. He fumbled 5 times this season, and has several more close calls. Why should he get credit because the ball took a fortuitous bounce on 3 of those occasions?

MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 10:25 AM
Mo, stop pretending like "only two turnovers" describes how well he handles the ball. He fumbled 5 times this season, and has several more close calls. Why should he get credit because the ball took a fortuitous bounce on 3 of those occasions?

Fine. He can take it the house on any return. He's one of maybe five guys in the NFL with that ability (Hester, Patterson, Jones, I'm sure there's one or two more).

That's really all I care about.

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 10:26 AM
I honestly don't see how you can even argue that he is still worth keeping. He was damn lucky his called fumble in the Super Bowl was reversed, because if it happens a split second earlier it's a fumble. As others have said, once it came playoff time the coaches didn't even trust him to return punts anymore. They'd rather put a key cog in our offense back there and risk him getting hurt. That speaks volumes.

I also lost count of how many times he decided to take a KO back 9 yards deep just to get stuffed at the 12. I don't know what changed from last season to this one, but his decision making and ball security both got worse, and the TDs went down.

I would MUCH rather bring in a guy with a little less explosiveness but who can hold onto the ball, make solid decisions, and contribute in other areas of the team. If there's no one we can pick up in FA who fits the bill, I'd spend a mid to late round draft pick on it.

I know he doesn't do anything but return KOs, but is Holliday a receiver?

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 10:27 AM
Put Caldwell back there

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:28 AM
Here's a fun stat. In the last 2 seasons, Holliday has fumbled the ball 11 times. That is the most in the NFL over that 2 year span for non-quarterbacks. He's the only non-QB in football to have at least 5 fumbles in each of the last 2 years. Now, he has been extremely fortunate and only lost 3 of those. But I still fail to see how he should get credit for the ball bouncing his way. It doesn't make the fumble any less of a mistake just because the ball bounces to the right guy.

Couple that with his subpar decision making as to which kicks to return, and the fact that he contributes nowhere else on the field, I just don't see the value he adds to the team? 2 touchdowns a season? That's what you're hanging your hat on?

chazoe60
02-06-2014, 10:29 AM
With our offense we don't need a guy who's a threat to take it back or fumble every time he touches it. We need a guy to catch the ball, keep it, and give it to Manning at the 20. Triad on is a liability.

Dreadnought
02-06-2014, 10:30 AM
Time to move on I think

BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 10:31 AM
I am really torn on Holiday. I love what he can bring to the team, but he scares the living shit out of me when he's back there.

I'd honestly have someone catch the ball cleanly and make a good return effort. Get good field position and get the ball in the hands of the best player on the team (Manning).

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:32 AM
With our offense we don't need a guy who's a threat to take it back or fumble every time he touches it. We need a guy to catch the ball, keep it, and give it to Manning at the 20. Triad on is a liability.

Great point. It's not like we are a team with a shitty offense who needs a kick returner to give us cheap scores. We just need someone who can assure we keep the ball and get it in decent field position and let the offense do work.

A guy like Hester had great value for the Bears over the years because they usually had a great defense and shitty offense, so they needed their D and special teams to generate scoring. We don't really need that. I'd rather spend the roster spot on a kick returner who can actually contribute at WR or DB.

CrazyHorse
02-06-2014, 10:34 AM
I'd like if we got a fast receiver that could maybe replace Decker and challenge Holliday on KR/PR.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Just one more thing to consider. Houston, a team who was a Super Bowl contender last season, cut him mid-season. Denver, another Super Bowl contender, yanked him off punt return for a guy who is a major contributor in our record-breaking offense. That's two coaching staffs in two seasons who have either gotten rid of him or reduced his role.

You don't see that kind of stuff happen to Hester, Peterson, Jones, and elite kick returners like that. If two separate coaching staffs in two seasons see him as a liability, that really speaks volumes.

VonDoom
02-06-2014, 10:43 AM
I think he's an RFA; IAOFM was saying he would likely be tendered to the tune of around $1.4 millilon. Worth it? I don't think so anymore. Can't we sign Jacoby Jones?

CrazyHorse
02-06-2014, 10:44 AM
I've often wondered if it has to do with coaching and conditioning or if he's simply too small. He's not the only one who's had issues with fumbling. It's been our whole team. I seriously don't think the coaching staff pays enough attention to ball security. Seattle devotes one full day to it in practice. That's why they're so good at forcing turnovers.

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 10:50 AM
I'd like if we got a fast receiver that could maybe replace Decker and challenge Holliday on KR/PR.

and I'd like it if I could whistle "Dixie" out of my butthole

CrazyHorse
02-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Fine. He can take it the house on any return. He's one of maybe five guys in the NFL with that ability (Hester, Patterson, Jones, I'm sure there's one or two more).

That's really all I care about.

Cribbs? Harvin?

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 11:31 AM
There's a little more I'd like to add this this.

I don't know if anyone reads Bill Barnwell, but IMO he is probably the sharpest football writer out there and he really puts things in perspective and backs up his arguments with solid data. One thing he loves to talk about is the impact that variance has on football games. When looking at a matchup, one of the best things an inferior team can do to beat a superior team is to increase the amount of variance in the game. This means doing things like going for it on 4th a little more than you would, running some trick plays, taking some risks on defense to force turnovers, stuff like that. Things that involve some risk, but that have a high payoff that can keep you in the game. IE, things with high variance. This is a great strategy for lesser teams to employ, because it widens the range of things that can happen, and gives them a chance for some cheap scores to keep them in the game.

On the flip side, variance is terrible for great teams. If you are a favorite, you want as little variance as possible, because the closer the game is played out according to a normal script, the better chance you have to win. Things that can increase your chances of losing are turnovers, freak plays, special teams TDs, things of that nature. Great teams want to eliminate variance as much as possible and just try to win on flat out skill and being better than the other team.

That gets us to Holliday. I think we would all agree that he is a very high variance player. He can take one to the house, but he also, statistically, has the biggest risk in the NFL of putting the ball on the ground. For a team like the Broncos, that kind of variance is horrible. We have an offense that broke every record in the book. We don't need a guy who can give you cheap ST touchdowns. It's a nice luxury to have, but not if he fumbles too much. If you look at all 4 of our losses, the common theme was costly turnovers. We maximize our chances of winning by reducing turnovers as much as possible, because if you take out turnovers, we are almost always the better team than our opponent. While Holliday is great for the occasional cheap TD, his fumble-proneness is the exact type of thing that can swing games in the other team's favor. All we need in a returner is someone who can secure the ball and put it in the hands of the greatest QB on the planet and let him do his thing.

Holliday would be great for a team like the Jags who stink and need high variance to help keep them in ballgames. For the Broncos, however, his tendency to put the ball on the ground is just too big of a liability. I think our coaches noticed this, and that is why you saw his role become reduced. There is no doubt in my mind that this team would be better off with a guy who isn't as explosive, but never puts the ball on the ground either.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 11:32 AM
Wow, that last post looked pretty Joel-ish in it's length. Hopefully at least someone reads it! :lol:

Buff
02-06-2014, 11:36 AM
I've turned on Holliday. He clearly is not physically or mentally capable of holding onto the ball. It's just too difficult of a task for him and even after multiple opportunities he has shown himself to be unreliable. He is most certainly gone next year.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 11:38 AM
It's not just his ability to hold onto the ball that concerns me. He has also had a hard time knowing when to fair catch, and when to let the ball go. I've seen him let balls bounce from the 15 down inside the 5, then I've seen him fair catch inside the 5. It's almost like he mentally freezes when it's inside the 20 and the coverage is bearing down on him.

chazoe60
02-06-2014, 11:41 AM
It's not just his ability to hold onto the ball that concerns me. He has also had a hard time knowing when to fair catch, and when to let the ball go. I've seen him let balls bounce from the 15 down inside the 5, then I've seen him fair catch inside the 5. It's almost like he mentally freezes when it's inside the 20 and the coverage is bearing down on him.

Not to mention starting out the SB by bringing it out from 8 yards deep and getting stuffed at the 14 or whatever. Dummy.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 11:45 AM
Not to mention starting out the SB by bringing it out from 8 yards deep and getting stuffed at the 14 or whatever. Dummy.

Another great point that plays into my variance argument. Bringing the ball out from 8-9 yards deep on a kickoff is a very high-variance play. Yeah it can result in a big return, but more often than not it's gonna get you tackled between the 10-15 yard line. With our offense, we should be doing nothing but letting Manning and Co start at the 20 and do their thing. Now MAYBE you could argue that against Seattle we could have used the variance the way our offense was playing, but I'd still rather put it at the 20 and take my chances with Manning.

claymore
02-06-2014, 11:45 AM
With our offense we don't need a guy who's a threat to take it back or fumble every time he touches it. We need a guy to catch the ball, keep it, and give it to Manning at the 20. Triad on is a liability.

I think his arms are to short to hold onto the football. I dont care how tall he is, but at this point he is a liability, and there isnt any amount of coaching that can fix it.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 11:52 AM
You can't say "he was lucky" that it didn't happen a split second earlier on the fumble because it was going to the ground that actuallly helped cause the fumble. LOTS of fumbles happen in the NFL that aren't fumbles because the ground causes them. That's why they have made it a rule that being DOWN .. knee, elbow, forearm..... means there isn't a fumble.

You may say you "cringe"...but at the same time I'm betting you are thinking "come on Holliday, take it to the house!" and KNOW that he has the ability to take it to the house on any return.

I believe some of the people saying taht Holliday isn't "worth it" because of the fumbles are the same ones that are the biggest advocates for Moreno..... didn't he fumble in the Super Bowl? Didn't DT fumble AGAIN in the Super Bowl? Is he worth it?

Joel
02-06-2014, 11:55 AM
I'd just about given up on him before the playoffs—then he ran the SBs opening kick out from 7 yds deep: Goodbye.

Buff
02-06-2014, 11:55 AM
You can't say "he was lucky" that it didn't happen a split second earlier on the fumble because it was going to the ground that actuallly helped cause the fumble. LOTS of fumbles happen in the NFL that aren't fumbles because the ground causes them. That's why they have made it a rule that being DOWN .. knee, elbow, forearm..... means there isn't a fumble.

You may say you "cringe"...but at the same time I'm betting you are thinking "come on Holliday, take it to the house!" and KNOW that he has the ability to take it to the house on any return.

I believe some of the people saying taht Holliday isn't "worth it" because of the fumbles are the same ones that are the biggest advocates for Moreno..... didn't he fumble in the Super Bowl? Didn't DT fumble AGAIN in the Super Bowl? Is he worth it?

His fumbles per touch have to be off the charts. Nobody is in the same universe as Holliday. Beyond that - you can actually feel his lack of confidence. He is terrified every time he is on the field.

It's kind of sad, really. Because he clearly has NFL ability but he can't get out of his own way.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 11:57 AM
You can't say "he was lucky" that it didn't happen a split second earlier on the fumble because it was going to the ground that actuallly helped cause the fumble. LOTS of fumbles happen in the NFL that aren't fumbles because the ground causes them. That's why they have made it a rule that being DOWN .. knee, elbow, forearm..... means there isn't a fumble.

You may say you "cringe"...but at the same time I'm betting you are thinking "come on Holliday, take it to the house!" and KNOW that he has the ability to take it to the house on any return.

I believe some of the people saying taht Holliday isn't "worth it" because of the fumbles are the same ones that are the biggest advocates for Moreno..... didn't he fumble in the Super Bowl? Didn't DT fumble AGAIN in the Super Bowl? Is he worth it?

Holliday's almost fumble in the SB wasn't caused by the ground. It was stripped but it came out just after his knee hit, so your point on that is moot.

As for Moreno, that was his first fumble all season, so give me a freaking break. And DT was playing with a broken collarbone, to that would understandably make it a bit more difficult to hold onto the ball.

And even though DT has had his fumbling issues, he is also one of the most effective WRs in the NFL. His good FAR outweighs his bad. Holliday turns it over as much as he scores, and fumbles far more often than he scores. It's a net negative.

To even try to compare Moreno and DT fumbling in the Super Bowl to Holliday's issues that have lasted over two years is just laughable.

claymore
02-06-2014, 12:02 PM
I dont see how Holiday can be defended at this point. Its like playing russian roulette with that kid. Id rather have touchbacks than the slim chance of a touchdown.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:03 PM
His fumbles per touch have to be off the charts. Nobody is in the same universe as Holliday. Beyond that - you can actually feel his lack of confidence. He is terrified every time he is on the field.

It's kind of sad, really. Because he clearly has NFL ability but he can't get out of his own way.

I just looked it up.

Holliday: 5 fumbles, 61 touches. So that is 1 fumble every 12.2 touches.

Moreno: I was wrong in my reply to Rav. He fumbled twice. In In 301 touches. So a fumble every 150 touches.

DT: 2 fumbles, 92 touches. A fumble every 46 touches.

So Holliday fumbles 4 times as often as DT and TWELVE times as often as Moreno.

So once again, to suggest that DT or Moreno's fumbling issues are even in the same stratosphere as Holliday's is absolutely laughable.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:04 PM
Moreno has had fumbles in the past, and DT has fumbled in the past. THe knee was DOWN...because he was HIT to go down.. and the ground DOES jar the body, and its why there are rules to say that a player that is down can't fumble.

To say that Moreno hasn't had fumbling issues is blind. DT fumbled aginst the Seahawks in pre-season game, did he have a "broken collarbone" then? DIdn't he fumble in other games this season, did he have a broken collarbone Then???

There are only a few players in the NFL that are a threat to take a KO to the house every time they return it.... and Holliday is one of those guys. Making him "one of the most effective players at HIS position." Of COURSE he fumbles as much as he scores :lol: he's a KICK returner!!

But, BTB, I'm sure you are just going to tell us that we are all wrong and how much you are right because you SAY you are right and we are being absurd because we don't see things like you...right?

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:05 PM
But, BTB, I'm sure you are just going to tell us that we are all wrong and how much you are right because you SAY you are right and we are being absurd because we don't see things like you...right?

I just posted statistics proving that I'm right. Holliday fumbles 4 times as often as DT and 12 times as often as Moreno. These are facts.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:07 PM
:lol: Wow... hey, I once saw a WR catch a 46yrd TD and only had 1 catches for the year. His average yards per catch were the best in the NFL!!

We seem to be talkign about Holliday's "past" problems yet seem to be forgetting Moreno's fumbling problems in the past. Moreno fumbled the ball in the biggest game of the year... SHOCKING!! DT fumbled, again, against Seattle. Obviously I'm not saying we should get rid of DT, but its pretty blind to ignore the fumbles we did lose and complain about the fumble from the guy that was "down."

To compare the number of touches to the fumbles on a WR and RB to a kick returner..... THAT is what's laughable! :lol: :lol:

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:09 PM
I just posted statistics proving that I'm right. Holliday fumbles 4 times as often as DT and 12 times as often as Moreno. These are facts.

That doesn't PROVE you are right, you pompous fool! :lol: Wow... you REALLY need to learn the difference between an opinion and a fact, and then learn to decern what facts don't make an opinion RIGHT... I mean.. Wow!

For someone that believes them to be so much smarter than everyone else, you REALLY have a lot to learn.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:10 PM
And Moreno got benched during his fumbling problems, because, newsflash, fumbling is a bad thing. When he stopped fumbling, he started playing again. Holliday has not stopped fumbling since he got here. There is a reason he was cut by one team and had his role reduced by another. It's because when you fumble as much as he does, you are a flat out liability.

Buff
02-06-2014, 12:10 PM
:lol: Wow... hey, I once saw a WR catch a 46yrd TD and only had 1 catches for the year. His average yards per catch were the best in the NFL!!

We seem to be talkign about Holliday's "past" problems yet seem to be forgetting Moreno's fumbling problems in the past. Moreno fumbled the ball in the biggest game of the year... SHOCKING!! DT fumbled, again, against Seattle. Obviously I'm not saying we should get rid of DT, but its pretty blind to ignore the fumbles we did lose and complain about the fumble from the guy that was "down."

To compare the number of touches to the fumbles on a WR and RB to a kick returner..... THAT is what's laughable! :lol: :lol:

It not about total number of touches. It's about the percentage of time a player fumbles when they do touch the ball. There really couldn't be a more accurate or representative statistical measurement than fumbles per touch.

Holliday is gone. For sure.

Hawgdriver
02-06-2014, 12:12 PM
Is Holiday worth what? A roster spot? I'd take him over Jammer. His meager salary? Sure. But I think that roster spot could get more play if with the right draft and FA season.

I like Holiday, but until staff gives him more rope to hang himself with, I don't understand why they keep him around. Either play him (on punts) or cut him already.

I think you give him another training camp to prove himself, and give him some rope next season. He's a hell of a weapon, a rare commodity, but his downside is real and probably outweighs the upside if we take a close look. I'd like to see more of him before I cut bait.

BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 12:12 PM
Guys, you should listen to Rav. He's all-world in terms of his football knowledge, and is clearly demonstrating it here.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:13 PM
Here's another great stat to put it into perspective. Holliday fumbled more this season than Moreno and DT COMBINED, despite the fact that he only touched the ball 61 times compared to 392 touches combined by the other two.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:15 PM
Here is another "put things in perspective" type stat.

If Moreno fumbled as often as Holliday does, he would have had 24 fumbles this season. Just think about that for a second.

dogfish
02-06-2014, 12:19 PM
holiday's terrible. . . gone!

claymore
02-06-2014, 12:21 PM
Here is another "put things in perspective" type stat.

If Moreno fumbled as often as Holliday does, he would have had 24 fumbles this season. Just think about that for a second.
But he has 12 TD's, he's worth it!!!

NightTerror218
02-06-2014, 12:24 PM
He is such a double edged sword. Question is can he improve his catching? He is always a serious threat when he is running with ball.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:25 PM
It not about total number of touches. It's about the percentage of time a player fumbles when they do touch the ball. There really couldn't be a more accurate or representative statistical measurement than fumbles per touch.

Holliday is gone. For sure.

I don't know if he's gone or not, that wasn't really my point. The stats being put up in comparisons to the % of fumbles to the % of touches of WRs and RBs doesn't hold water, one bit. Compare him to the other kickers in the NFL if y ou want to make comparisons. Hell, I'm not even saying that Holliday doesn't have a fumble problem.

I'm pointing out that as far as kick-returners go, Holliday is one of the tops in the NFL for returns and ability to take it home. One fumble for a kick returner is ALWAYS ALWAYS going to have a much larger percentage than a guy that gets the ball 30 times a game. WRs that only get 3 passes a year will have a larger % of drops...or catches... than those that get 100 passes thrown to them a year. Which was the point of the silly sentence about the 1 WR that caught the 46 yrd TD. His "yards per catch" is an indicator on how many yards he gets...Or.... he caught 100% of the passes thrown to him. Either way, the % aspect is not an accurate measuring stick.

Special teams is different in that regards. Returning a kick is a LOT different than running through the LoS. Catching a ball is different than kick returning. Neither has defenderss flying at them after a 30 yrd sprint, and both of those position have different expectations as to whats considered successful or not.

Hell, now Im just getting into generalities and not even really talking about Holliday himself. But the silly stats being tossed out there and believing they "prove my opinion"......is just stupid.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:26 PM
Guys, you should listen to Rav. He's all-world in terms of his football knowledge, and is clearly demonstrating it here.

Compared to you, Joe.... damn straight.

Buff
02-06-2014, 12:27 PM
I don't know if he's gone or not, that wasn't really my point. The stats being put up in comparisons to the % of fumbles to the % of touches of WRs and RBs doesn't hold water, one bit. Compare him to the other kickers in the NFL if y ou want to make comparisons. Hell, I'm not even saying that Holliday doesn't have a fumble problem.

I'm pointing out that as far as kick-returners go, Holliday is one of the tops in the NFL for returns and ability to take it home. One fumble for a kick returner is ALWAYS ALWAYS going to have a much larger percentage than a guy that gets the ball 30 times a game. WRs that only get 3 passes a year will have a larger % of drops...or catches... than those that get 100 passes thrown to them a year. Which was the point of the silly sentence about the 1 WR that caught the 46 yrd TD. His "yards per catch" is an indicator on how many yards he gets...Or.... he caught 100% of the passes thrown to him. Either way, the % aspect is not an accurate measuring stick.

Special teams is different in that regards. Returning a kick is a LOT different than running through the LoS. Catching a ball is different than kick returning. Neither has defenderss flying at them after a 30 yrd sprint, and both of those position have different expectations as to whats considered successful or not.

Hell, now Im just getting into generalities and not even really talking about Holliday himself. But the silly stats being tossed out there and believing they "prove my opinion"......is just stupid.

Rav, I love you buddy, but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 12:32 PM
ban Ravage for his stupidity

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:36 PM
I don't know if he's gone or not, that wasn't really my point. The stats being put up in comparisons to the % of fumbles to the % of touches of WRs and RBs doesn't hold water, one bit. Compare him to the other kickers in the NFL if y ou want to make comparisons. Hell, I'm not even saying that Holliday doesn't have a fumble problem.

I'm pointing out that as far as kick-returners go, Holliday is one of the tops in the NFL for returns and ability to take it home. One fumble for a kick returner is ALWAYS ALWAYS going to have a much larger percentage than a guy that gets the ball 30 times a game. WRs that only get 3 passes a year will have a larger % of drops...or catches... than those that get 100 passes thrown to them a year. Which was the point of the silly sentence about the 1 WR that caught the 46 yrd TD. His "yards per catch" is an indicator on how many yards he gets...Or.... he caught 100% of the passes thrown to him. Either way, the % aspect is not an accurate measuring stick.

Special teams is different in that regards. Returning a kick is a LOT different than running through the LoS. Catching a ball is different than kick returning. Neither has defenderss flying at them after a 30 yrd sprint, and both of those position have different expectations as to whats considered successful or not.

Hell, now Im just getting into generalities and not even really talking about Holliday himself. But the silly stats being tossed out there and believing they "prove my opinion"......is just stupid.

Rav, just stop it. Just admit that your point about DT and Moreno fumbling in the Super Bowl was a bad one and let's all move on with our lives.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:36 PM
Rav, I love you buddy, but...



Buff you should know I think you are awesome, but you know I'm right when comparing the % of touches. It just doesnt' make sense.

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 12:38 PM
Rav, just stop it. Just admit that your point about DT and Moreno fumbling in the Super Bowl was a bad one and let's all move on with our lives.

Moreno had a fumble?

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:38 PM
Rav, just stop it. Just admit that your point about DT and Moreno fumbling in the Super Bowl was a bad one and let's all move on with our lives.

HAH... when you admit that your moronic comparisons of touches was ridiculous. I brought thse two guys up because you said he was "lucky his fumble dind't happen a second earlier"...that's just a silly statement.

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 12:40 PM
HAH... when you admit that your moronic comparisons of touches was ridiculous. I brought thse two guys up because you said he was "lucky his fumble dind't happen a second earlier"...that's just a silly statement.

broncowaves comparisons were useful, you're assertions have just been outlandishly stupid. Like I can't believe you are even alive

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:41 PM
HAH... when you admit that your moronic comparisons of touches was ridiculous. I brought thse two guys up because you said he was "lucky his fumble dind't happen a second earlier"...that's just a silly statement.

It's not silly at all. By losing the ball when he did, he is still putting the team at risk of the refs making a bad call and there not being enough evidence on video to overturn it. The ref on the field called it a fumble, and there was only one camera angle that actually showed his knee down. He is DAMN lucky that it wasn't a turnover there.

BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 12:41 PM
Compared to you, Joe.... damn straight.

I'll take that as a compliment. You're off your rocker. As usual.

BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 12:42 PM
I'll take that as a compliment. You're off your rocker. As usual.

he thinks Buff is awesome.

Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 12:48 PM
broncowaves comparisons were useful, you're assertions have just been outlandishly stupid. Like I can't believe you are even alive

His comparisons are foolish at best. I'm disappointed that you don't have a better perspective, Gap. I always thought you were brighter than that. Guess that's something else I was off my rocker about.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:52 PM
Just for shits and giggles, let's compare Holliday's fumble rate over the past two seasons to other elite kick/punt returners.

Holliday: 11 fumbles, 132 touches, 1 fumble every 12 touches.
Devin Hester: 6 fumbles, 160 touches, 1 fumble every 26.7 touches.
Patrick Peterson: 10 fumbles, 117 touches, 1 fumble every 11.7 touches. (although Peterson has also picked off 10 balls and recovered 7 fumbles over that time, so his 17 forced turnovers for sure outweigh his 10 fumbles)
Jacoby Jones: 4 fumbles, 195 touches, 1 fumble every 49 touches.
Josh Cribbs: 6 fumbles, 137 touches, 1 fumble every 22.8 touches.

So the only other elite KR/PR with a similar fumble rate is Peterson, but the fact that he is an all-pro defensive player kinda makes up for that.

The other elite guys fumble considerably less than Holliday.

So now that I have compared him to other kick returners are you happy?

Mike
02-06-2014, 12:54 PM
Nope. He should be gone.

claymore
02-06-2014, 12:57 PM
Nope. He should be gone.

There isnt a spot for a KR ONLY guy who fumbles once every 10-12 touches. If he could cover kicks, or was a valued WR I would say keep him. Having said that, Id be surprised if he went to the Seahawks post rape party.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 12:59 PM
There isnt a spot for a KR ONLY guy who fumbles once every 10-12 touches. If he could cover kicks, or was a valued WR I would say keep him. Having said that, Id be surprised if he went to the Seahawks post rape party.

Yep, the only other elite KR I could find with a similar fumble rate is Patrick Peterson, and he is an all-pro defender. If Holliday were even half the player offensively that Peterson is defensively I could forgive his fumbling, but he is literally a non-factor on offense. He has been given 3 offensive touches in the last 2 seasons.

claymore
02-06-2014, 01:02 PM
Yep, the only other elite KR I could find with a similar fumble rate is Patrick Peterson, and he is an all-pro defender. If Holliday were even half the player offensively that Peterson is defensively I could forgive his fumbling, but he is literally a non-factor on offense. He has been given 3 offensive touches in the last 2 seasons.

If he was that good, I would still say take him of KR. A KR fumble has to count more than a traditional fumble. The opposing offense just scored, and you are giving the ball back in the redzone. Id rather not field a kicker at all.

Lancane
02-06-2014, 01:02 PM
No, and with the NFL getting ready to change the process of special teams to a degree it makes it even more so.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 01:04 PM
No, and with the NFL getting ready to change the process of special teams to a degree it makes it even more so.

Another great point. Since the NFL has moved the kickoff up, you see WAY more touchbacks. Seeing as we have taken him off of punt return and there aren't many chances for kick returns, what value does he have left exactly?

jhildebrand
02-06-2014, 02:08 PM
Trindon isn't worth it. Also, the centering of an entire draft around one Brock Osweiler showed up in a big way on Sunday. He isn't worth it either. While it is only two roster positions, they could have been much better utilized especially given the injuries on the team.

Joel
02-06-2014, 04:24 PM
Moreno had a fumble?
Little tangential again, and I was pretty drunk by then, but: That was the play before the first Int, wasn't it? It seemed like no big deal at the time because we got it back, but I remember being annoyed a short gain that would've brought up 3rd and ~3 turned into 3rd and long after the ball went backward ~5 yds before one of our linemen fell on it (at least they're good for something.)

Anyway, Ravage has a point about Hollidays small sample of kick returns tending to make fumbles and TDs alike anomalous artifacts rather than a true pattern. HOWEVER, as long as all he does is return kicks, that's the only way to judge him, and his sole value to the team. If he compensated for the fumbles by doing ANYTHING else well, or several things, it might be worth it; he doesn't, so it's not. He's so confident in himself he runs kicks out from WAY to deep (even at the start of the SB) yet fumbles a lot.

Basically, having about as many TDs as fumbles is the only reason he's not Quan Cosby 2.0. Houston cut him for the exact same crap he's still doing; it's unlikely to ever change.

Lancane
02-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Trindon isn't worth it. Also, the centering of an entire draft around one Brock Osweiler showed up in a big way on Sunday. He isn't worth it either. While it is only two roster positions, they could have been much better utilized especially given the injuries on the team.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but the other part is completely fruitless. We're entering the third year of Manning's contract and what is likely to be his final season in Denver, despite the spry words in his comments before the Super Bowl the Broncos and Manning are entering the part of his contract extension that allows them to part ways otherwise Denver owes him 21.5 million for 2015 and the same amount in 2016 should he be on the roster at the end of the 2015 season. Osweiler will have had three years of education and tutelage in the offense he'd run, under one of the greatest quarterbacks of the modern era. I am sure that the Packers are rather happy they allowed Rodgers to sit as long as he did under Farve, after all they won another Super Bowl and are a continual threat in their division. We have no idea if Osweiler was or was not worth it, but if he comes in after Manning departs without missing much of a beat, then that is better then playing the quarterback quandary game that so many others have had to do. We'd still have needed a quarterback to groom, and according to all sources Oz is still slated to be the future franchise quarterback of this franchise. So I have to completely disagree with you on that one.

BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 04:35 PM
Yeah - I didn't get the rip on Osweiler either. Should we not have a backup QB or a young "stud" that can take over the team within the next year or so?

Wow.

Mike
02-06-2014, 04:46 PM
Yeah - I didn't get the rip on Osweiler either. Should we not have a backup QB or a young "stud" that can take over the team within the next year or so?

Wow.

The pick could have been used on a more impact type player. Of course, it could have been a blown pick too.

To me, it isn't worth arguing about. Denver needed a backup to groom, Elway liked Oz. I am fine with that. Not sure the value is there, but I will just have to trust Elway on it. Wait and see.

Lancane
02-06-2014, 04:53 PM
The pick could have been used on a more impact type player. Of course, it could have been a blown pick too.

To me, it isn't worth arguing about. Denver needed a backup to groom, Elway liked Oz. I am fine with that. Not sure the value is there, but I will just have to trust Elway on it. Wait and see.

Mike Mayock stated the year we drafted him that he was close to being a borderline first round pick, the year after Mayock said Osweiler would have been a surefire first rounder. We got him a year earlier to groom at got him later then we would have a year later. That is a win-win in my book. Beyond that, the "Should, Could and Would" argument is rather old, it could be done with every pick, even the Von Miller pick at this point. But We needed a quarterback for security and depth, since then he's been groomed to be the quarterback of the future and that is where the team including Elway sees him, and that is what he is until they say otherwise.

DenBronx
02-06-2014, 06:50 PM
Eric Decker actually did well on returns. If we re-sign Decker then I fully expect him to take over return duties and Holliday gone.

Joel
02-06-2014, 06:58 PM
Eric Decker actually did well on returns. If we re-sign Decker then I fully expect him to take over return duties and Holliday gone.
By all accounts it's extremely unlikely we re-sign Decker. He's got the resume to be a #1 almost anywhere EXCEPT Denver, where it'll never happen as long as DT's healthy. We can't really afford to PAY him like a #1 though unless we forego the remaining missing pieces of our SB puzzle, and we'll have to pay DT like one after next year. Given a choice, it's no choice at all.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 07:54 PM
Yeah, I don't see Decker being back, so that's not an option. I don't think our KR for next year is on the roster right now. It will have to be addressed in the draft or through free agency.

DenBronx
02-06-2014, 07:56 PM
By all accounts it's extremely unlikely we re-sign Decker. He's got the resume to be a #1 almost anywhere EXCEPT Denver, where it'll never happen as long as DT's healthy. We can't really afford to PAY him like a #1 though unless we forego the remaining missing pieces of our SB puzzle, and we'll have to pay DT like one after next year. Given a choice, it's no choice at all.

The way I look at it, the ball is in Mannings court. If he wants Decker to stay then it might be up to him to make it happen.

I would out right cut both Dreesen and Tamme just to keep Decker. That is about 6 mill in savings alone. Then just draft another blocking TE. Julius has proven he is the guy now. I really would like to see this offensive unit stay together but that might come with some creativity and also crushing a few dreams.


Woody, Ayers, Woody and Kuper might be the odd guys out. There might be some cuts as well.

Joel
02-06-2014, 08:25 PM
The way I look at it, the ball is in Mannings court. If he wants Decker to stay then it might be up to him to make it happen.

I would out right cut both Dreesen and Tamme just to keep Decker. That is about 6 mill in savings alone. Then just draft another blocking TE. Julius has proven he is the guy now. I really would like to see this offensive unit stay together but that might come with some creativity and also crushing a few dreams.

Woody, Ayers, Woody and Kuper might be the odd guys out. There might be some cuts as well.
We gonna relase Woodyard twice? :tongue:

Were it up to me (which it ain't) I'd bring back DRC, Phillips, Moreno and Woodyard, and renegotiate with Champ and Manning. I'd LIKE Ayers, but more for depth since Wolfe may not be healthy and neither he nor Jackson are speed rushers (though they ARE good pass rushers for their size, and great against the run.) We probably can't afford to match offers for Ayers and have him ride the bench most of the game. I like Kuper, and he wouldn't get pushed around in pass protection like Beadles, but he's aging and I want some PUSH from our guards; he doesn't give that.

I defintely don't want to cut Dreessen and Tamme; I don't really want to cut either, because TEs who block AND catch well conceal our hand from the D, just as RBs who run, catch and block well don't. Call them "everydown TEs;" if there's one thing we should've already known but were brutally reminded of last week, it's that anytime a good D knows what you're doing, you're screwed.

Shazam!
02-06-2014, 08:31 PM
Maybe if he comes cheap and a whole offseason of ball control...

tripp
02-06-2014, 08:35 PM
He's not worth it. High risk low reward. We shouldn't depend on a PR/KR to give us good field position. I'd like to think someone else could fill his shoes quite easily. My heart is in my mouth when this guy is returning it. His size and speed are positive and negative thing. I'd like to think a 4th string WR could do his job imo. Gerell Robinson maybe???

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 09:06 PM
And Moreno got benched during his fumbling problems, because, newsflash, fumbling is a bad thing. When he stopped fumbling, he started playing again. Holliday has not stopped fumbling since he got here. There is a reason he was cut by one team and had his role reduced by another. It's because when you fumble as much as he does, you are a flat out liability.

No he started playing again when McGahee got injured. That to is a fact.

Joel
02-06-2014, 09:26 PM
Maybe if he comes cheap and a whole offseason of ball control...
So he should come pretty cheap. Maybe we should let him fight Caldwell for Deckers job (though I'm pretty sure who'd win) and dump him if he can't get it. Can we wait that long to decide?

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 09:28 PM
No he started playing again when McGahee got injured. That to is a fact.

Cool story bro. Tell someone who gives a shit.

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 09:30 PM
Cool story bro. Tell someone who gives a shit.

Why should I? You never say anything worth a shit bro.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 09:34 PM
Why should I? You never say anything worth a shit bro.

Then stop responding to me. It will save both of us a lot of time and hassle on here.

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 09:36 PM
He's not worth it. High risk low reward. We shouldn't depend on a PR/KR to give us good field position. I'd like to think someone else could fill his shoes quite easily. My heart is in my mouth when this guy is returning it. His size and speed are positive and negative thing. I'd like to think a 4th string WR could do his job imo. Gerell Robinson maybe???

Fielding punts and kicks is not easy thing to do.

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 09:41 PM
Then stop responding to me. It will save both of us a lot of time and hassle on here.


I hardly ever response to you and instead of being a whinny hypocrit take your own advise. Ok?

Dzone
02-06-2014, 09:45 PM
We need a guy who can play on offense/defense and return punts and kos.(percy harvin) Holiday only returns kickoffs and fumbles under pressure. Trindon is taking up space. Get rid of him

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 09:49 PM
We need a guy who can play on offense/defense and return punts and kos. Holiday only returns kickoffs and fumbles under pressure. Trindon is taking up space. Get rid of him

We'll see what they do with him. If they do get rid of him I hope they can find some one who can do the same things but with better ball security.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 09:51 PM
We need a guy who can play on offense/defense and return punts and kos.(percy harvin) Holiday only returns kickoffs and fumbles under pressure. Trindon is taking up space. Get rid of him

Guys like Harvin are generally found in the first round. Holliday is a restricted free agent who will make very little next year.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 09:52 PM
I hardly ever response you and instead of being a whinny hypocrit take your own advise. Ok?

:lol: Is this English?

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 10:06 PM
:lol: Is this English?

Hopefully one day you'll grow up.

MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 10:18 PM
Somebody loves you, Trindon.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/01/13/sports/afc/afc-articleLarge.jpg

Jaded
02-06-2014, 10:22 PM
Holiday is a complete waste of a roster spot at this point, has been for the majority of the season. Before it was an exercise in Pro's and Con's, now not so much.

His name was brought up in another thread, Tavares King, the Broncos lost him to waivers after the bye week, that shoulda been Holiday.

MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 10:25 PM
Holiday is a complete waste of a roster spot at this point, has been for the majority of the season. Before it was an exercise in Pro's and Con's, now not so much.

His name was brought up in another thread, Tavares King, the Broncos lost him to waivers after the bye week, that shoulda been Holiday.

:confused:

According to ESPN and Rivals King hasn't returned a punt since his sophomore season in high school.

Jaded
02-06-2014, 10:27 PM
:confused:

According to ESPN and Rivals King hasn't returned a punt since his sophomore season in high school.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that King should be the PR, just that Holiday shoulda been the "WR" the Broncos released. Not that King is the Next Marvin Harrison, but I think he would be a candidate to contribute if Decker leaves.

tomjonesrocks
02-06-2014, 10:31 PM
There's no way he isn't through in Denver. Would think they would move on.

Sucks, especially since he delivered vs Balt.

BroncoWave
02-06-2014, 10:36 PM
There's no way he isn't through in Denver. Would think they would move on.

Sucks, especially since he delivered vs Balt.

Honestly, with his size and the way he's built, I don't even know that he's capable of fixing his fumbling issues. He's just so tiny. It can't be that hard to strip the ball away from him. Every time he gets hit it shocks me that it doesn't break him in half. He's an absolutely incredible athlete, easily one of the best in the NFL, but I just don't think his fumbling issue is one that can be fixed. Throw in his poor decision making, and I agree that I don't see how he stays on the roster next season.

TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 10:39 PM
Somebody loves you, Trindon.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/01/13/sports/afc/afc-articleLarge.jpg

I like the kid but it's hard to just look past the fumbles. I know Denver recovered the majority of them but he keeps putting the ball on the ground it's hard for me to believe that good fortune will continue.

Mike
02-07-2014, 08:38 AM
I like the kid but it's hard to just look past the fumbles. I know Denver recovered the majority of them but he keeps putting the ball on the ground it's hard for me to believe that good fortune will continue.

It isn't just the fumbles though. He just makes poor decisions on when to bring the ball out.

TXBRONC
02-07-2014, 09:11 AM
It isn't just the fumbles though. He just makes poor decisions on when to bring the ball out.

No more than any another returner.

Mike
02-07-2014, 09:53 AM
No more than another returner.

ok.

BroncoNut
02-07-2014, 10:44 AM
Fielding punts and kicks is not easy thing to do.

never played football, but did play rugby and I imagine it to be a difficult thing to do

BroncoWave
02-07-2014, 11:42 AM
I don't see the relevance in returning kicks being difficult to do. It's the NFL. Every position is difficult to succeed in. That's why these guys get paid big bucks to do it.

TXBRONC
02-07-2014, 11:55 AM
ok.

I've seen Jacoby Jones terrible decisions returning the ball. That's said, if Denver gets rid of him then they get rid of him. I just hope Denver can find someone who can flip field position because I for one do not want another Jim Leonhard because he was useless.

Hawgdriver
02-07-2014, 01:02 PM
No more than any another returner.

Yeah, swag+ is the prototypical returner attribute. No good returner lacks it.

dogfish
03-06-2014, 09:46 PM
As veteran kick returner Devin Hester gets ready to hit the open market for the first time in his career, he’ll have some competition.

Per a league source, the Broncos have opted not to apply a restricted free agency tender to Trindon Holliday. It means that he’ll become a free agent on March 11.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/06/broncos-wont-make-tender-offer-to-trindon-holliday/#comments

well, that was fun while it lasted. . .