View Full Version : Bailey open to moving to safety
Not sure if this has been posted. I'm mobile and I didn't see it posted.
Last week, Bailey was asked if he would consider moving to safety, a position traditionally a retirement home for cornerbacks.
"I'm not going to move anywhere anytime soon," he said.
Sunday night, Bailey had a different answer when asked the same question.
"If it makes sense," Bailey said. "It's something I'd definitely look into."
Read more:*Champ Bailey no champ this time, but will return for Broncos, he says - The Denver Post*http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_25049292/champ-bailey-no-champwill-return-broncos#ixzz2sJPr9bev*
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CrazyHorse
02-03-2014, 08:31 PM
He needs to take a pay cut first. Free or strong safety though?
Dzone
02-03-2014, 08:34 PM
I only watched him on a few plays last night, but what I saw was champ trying hard to catch up and looking real slow. Maybe he would be a good safety. His leadership is always an asset. If he stays, I guess thats a good thing
DenBronx
02-03-2014, 08:35 PM
I really think he's done. This move if it was going to be made should have happened years ago. Too late now. Bailey just looks like he is always getting torched.
Are we talking safety at 10 mill a year?? 3 mill a year?? I love Champ but I want whats best for the team?
He said if it makes sense. Does it make sense to take a risk on an unknown factor? Why not draft one in round 1? Seattle got Earl Thomas round 1 right?
Cutting Champ makes the most sense. Sorry, I know everyone hates to hear that but I want what's best for the team and right now it's keeping guys like DRC, Phillips, Von Miller and DT.
Lancane
02-03-2014, 08:43 PM
Agreed DB, Champ is done in Denver and if he returns and especially and the current price it shows the front office's ineptitude at handling their business.
I only watched him on a few plays last night, but what I saw was champ trying hard to catch up and looking real slow. Maybe he would be a good safety. His leadership is always an asset. If he stays, I guess thats a good thing
On one of the plays when he looked badly beaten, he got picked, which gave his guy a couple yard lead.
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AngMunoz1987
02-03-2014, 09:45 PM
Champ hasn't been good for 4yrs now. He needs to retire. He's to small n slow to play Safety at a high level that we need at safety.
aberdien
02-03-2014, 09:49 PM
This picture has been floating around today:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bfk9h9mCMAA5sqD.jpg
I want to keep Champ for sentimental reasons, and i'm thrilled he is open to doing what it takes to stay on the team, but I am unsure about how good of a player he really is anymore. I want to believe that he can still play so I would be okay with giving him another shot.
Champ hasn't been good for 4yrs now. He needs to retire. He's to small n slow to play Safety at a high level that we need at safety.
This simply isn't an accurate statement.
CrazyHorse
02-03-2014, 10:14 PM
This simply isn't an accurate statement.
He was a top 10 CB last season. He just doesn't have the speed to keep up with fast receivers anymore. I think he would be a decent safety. I think a tandem of him at SS and Moore at FS would be an upgrade over Adams and Ihenacho.
He was a top 10 CB last season. He just doesn't have the speed to keep up with fast receivers anymore. I think he would be a decent safety. I think a tandem of him at SS and Moore at FS would be an upgrade over Adams and Ihenacho.
Simply saying he hasn't been any good for four years is crazy. He's clearly lost a step and the injury bug hit him hard this year. He's still one of the better corners in the league, just not elite, cover corner material anymore. However, when it comes to the second CB or nickel/dime, you have to compare him to what most teams, or Broncos, are running in those positions, like say Tony Carter.
I think if we can re-sign DRC and keep a healthy Harris, then Champ could fit well either at nickel or possibly safety, either of which would obviously require a salary cut from his top tier CB money.
MOtorboat
02-03-2014, 10:21 PM
He was a top 10 CB last season. He just doesn't have the speed to keep up with fast receivers anymore. I think he would be a decent safety. I think a tandem of him at SS and Moore at FS would be an upgrade over Adams and Ihenacho.
Top 4.
And a picture of him getting stiff-armed isn't proof of jack. The best linebackers of all time have been stiff-armed before. If he thinks he should move to safety, fine. I don't like it. A healthy Bailey has gotten beat twice from what I could see (and when I say beat, I don't mean the crossing pattern where he didn't have position. That's not beat), once on the wheel route last night (where as noted by Tned he was picked) and on the deep pass early in the Patriots game where Brady overthrew his receiver.
He was hurt this year, and he looked bad because he was hurt. He was back to being one of the best players on this defense for two playoff wins.
And the "4 years" comment. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
He was a top 10 CB last season. He just doesn't have the speed to keep up with fast receivers anymore. I think he would be a decent safety. I think a tandem of him at SS and Moore at FS would be an upgrade over Adams and Ihenacho.
I'd rather have Champ at FS and Ihenacho at SS. Then we have two starting safeties who tackle well, and the SS lays wood (like a SS should) while the FS ballhawks (as a FS should.) I've never seen Moore ballhawk OR lay wood, and it's not clear he can come back 100% from his injury anyway. From what I recall of the reports released on it he went home and went to bed, and only went to the hospital later when the pain became overwhelming, and the same reports said compartment syndrome can do permanent damage if not treated within a few hours of occurrence.
I hope and pray for the best for the guy, but even if he comes back good as new I'd STILL rather have Champ and Duke than Champ and Moore. All that's contingent on a massive paycut, because no safety in the NFL is worth $9 million (though I bet Bowlen would pay that in a heartbeat to have back the last regulation play of last year, especially after Sunday.) If he and the team are willing to do that and make the move though, it's definitely worth it.
Re-signing DRC looks a no-brainer now, and if Harris fully recovers from his ACL tear and Webster continues developing we should be in good shape at CB, whether Carter stays as the dimeback/backup or we find someone as good or better to go there. Since we don't know Moore's long term prognosis though and it's unclear Adams will return, we look pretty thin at safety. We have for a while, which is why I jumped on the "move Champ to safety" bandwagon a long time ago. All that's really changed is our CB depth has improved and our safety depth declined.
Jsteve01
02-04-2014, 12:11 AM
I really think he's done. This move if it was going to be made should have happened years ago. Too late now. Bailey just looks like he is always getting torched.
Are we talking safety at 10 mill a year?? 3 mill a year?? I love Champ but I want whats best for the team?
He said if it makes sense. Does it make sense to take a risk on an unknown factor? Why not draft one in round 1? Seattle got Earl Thomas round 1 right?
Cutting Champ makes the most sense. Sorry, I know everyone hates to hear that but I want what's best for the team and right now it's keeping guys like DRC, Phillips, Von Miller and DT. you mean the Earl Thomas we passed up to draft Moreno, when safety was a glaring need?
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 12:21 AM
Champ a top 4 or 5 CB??? Are you guys freakin nuts? He isnt even top 2 on our team and that's not saying much.
Chris Harris Jr and DRC are better than Champ at this stage.
Sorry ...I know it's a sentimental area but Champ played well last year based on everyone else staying healthy and doing their job too. This year not so much. As much as some of you might not want to say it, it might be time he hangs them up. Tough pill to swallow but look at the top defenses. Compare their secondarys and then compare ours. The only two bright spots I see right now are DRC and Harris. Those two play very well when healthy. Things seem to fall apart when they are not. When DRC got injured NE had a field day....that's how they made a comeback.
Champ a top 4 or 5 CB??? Are you guys freakin nuts? He isnt even top 2 on our team and that's not saying much.
Chris Harris Jr and DRC are better than Champ at this stage.
Sorry ...I know it's a sentimental area but Champ played well last year based on everyone else staying healthy and doing their job too. This year not so much. As much as some of you might not want to say it, it might be time he hangs them up. Tough pill to swallow but look at the top defenses. Compare their secondarys and then compare ours. The only two bright spots I see right now are DRC and Harris. Those two play very well when healthy. Things seem to fall apart when they are not. When DRC got injured NE had a field day....that's how they made a comeback.
He said last year. Last year champ had a great year except for the playoff game. This year, he was hurt all year. So we don't have any reasonable way to judge him.
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MOtorboat
02-04-2014, 12:32 AM
Champ a top 4 or 5 CB??? Are you guys freakin nuts? He isnt even top 2 on our team and that's not saying much.
Chris Harris Jr and DRC are better than Champ at this stage.
Sorry ...I know it's a sentimental area but Champ played well last year based on everyone else staying healthy and doing their job too. This year not so much. As much as some of you might not want to say it, it might be time he hangs them up. Tough pill to swallow but look at the top defenses. Compare their secondarys and then compare ours. The only two bright spots I see right now are DRC and Harris. Those two play very well when healthy. Things seem to fall apart when they are not. When DRC got injured NE had a field day....that's how they made a comeback.
If 2012 he graded out as one of the top cornerbacks in the game and was one of four cornerbacks selected to the All-Pro team. This happened 12 months ago.
Yes, he struggled this season on a bad foot, and one pass in the Super Bowl. He's not done by any stretch of the imagination, and I personally don't think he should move to safety when cornerback is a MUCH more important
position and it's likely that DRC could leave.
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 12:36 AM
Considering his age and the Lisfranc injury he might never be the same player. I'd like us to draft us a corner opposite of DRC and move Harris back to Nickel. Champ at safety is a possibility. We could cut him however and pursue someone like Jairus Byrd.
Considering his age and the Lisfranc injury he might never be the same player. I'd like us to draft us a corner opposite of DRC and move Harris back to Nickel. Champ at safety is a possibility. We could cut him however and pursue someone like Jairus Byrd.
Harris graded out better than DRC this year and was our best cover corner.
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DenBronx
02-04-2014, 12:43 AM
He said last year. Last year champ had a great year except for the playoff game. This year, he was hurt all year. So we don't have any reasonable way to judge him.
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If 2012 he graded out as one of the top cornerbacks in the game and was one of four cornerbacks selected to the All-Pro team. This happened 12 months ago.
Yes, he struggled this season on a bad foot, and one pass in the Super Bowl. He's not done by any stretch of the imagination, and I personally don't think he should move to safety when cornerback is a MUCH more important
position and it's likely that DRC could leave.
Guys, if we don't retain DRC then I think it's safe to go in full defcon 1 panic mode. He's the only guy I trust on #1's now. Especially since Harris Jr just had ACL surgery. We don't know how he will play after an injury like that.
I love Bailey. I don't want to disrespect him in anyway nor fans that love him. I get it, I truly get it. But the eye test tells me something differant. I just don't see his coverage skills up to par anymore. I wish I had the answers. Clearly by him saying today he would be open to a switch then he is thinking that himself. If no name WRs on Seattle can burn him like that then I would really worry about next year. He isn't physical, he's not mean and he doesn't have the grit that I wished he had.
Both safety positions need to be addressed. Do we really trust Rahim Moore?
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 12:48 AM
Moore isn't a super star but was one of the better free safeties when he was healthy. It remains to be seen how well he'll be able to return from injury. Duke is okay at SS but can't cover well. I would like to go after someone like Byrd and possibly move Bailey to safety. Draft a CB. That would leave us with Byrd, Bailey, DRC, Harris, and draft pick in our secondary. We're not sure how well Harris will return either though. To put things in perspective, we're still better off now than when we had starting safeties like Marlon McCree and Marquand Manuel.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 12:51 AM
Considering his age and the Lisfranc injury he might never be the same player. I'd like us to draft us a corner opposite of DRC and move Harris back to Nickel. Champ at safety is a possibility. We could cut him however and pursue someone like Jairus Byrd.
Or just draft a nickle CB. Harris has proven he can cover #1s as well. That is a more pressing position.
I think we need to get someone younger, someone more physical. Releasing Champ frees up 9-10 mill. Dreesen, Tamme and Kuper are 3 other guys I could see possibly getting cut. Now, I don't see Tamme AND Dreesen both going but at least one especially since Julius just went bezerk this year. Between Dreesen and Tamme I could see keeping Tamme because of Mannings relationship. Dreesen seems to be the better pass catching TE and Tamme seems to be the better blocking TE. Which one do we need the most? Do we really keep injury prone Kuper around?? Really?
Guys, if we don't retain DRC then I think it's safe to go in full defcon 1 panic mode. He's the only guy I trust on #1's now. Especially since Harris Jr just had ACL surgery. We don't know how he will play after an injury like that.
I love Bailey. I don't want to disrespect him in anyway nor fans that love him. I get it, I truly get it. But the eye test tells me something differant. I just don't see his coverage skills up to par anymore. I wish I had the answers. Clearly by him saying today he would be open to a switch then he is thinking that himself. If no name WRs on Seattle can burn him like that then I would really worry about next year. He isn't physical, he's not mean and he doesn't have the grit that I wished he had.
Both safety positions need to be addressed. Do we really trust Rahim Moore?
It's not about love, it's about sound reasoning.
He missed essentially the entire year with a lisfranc injury. Came back you really. Reinjured it, so basically missed what, the first 14 games or so, which also meant that there is no way he was at 100% game shape at end of season/playoffs.
Hence the reason that we have no way to judge where he is at right now. That isn't love, that's sound reasoning/logic.
You judging him on a year when he had a major injury is a knee jerk train.
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DenBronx
02-04-2014, 12:56 AM
Moore isn't a super star but was one of the better free safeties when he was healthy. It remains to be seen how well he'll be able to return from injury. Duke is okay at SS but can't cover well. I would like to go after someone like Byrd and possibly move Bailey to safety. Draft a CB. That would leave us with Byrd, Bailey, DRC, Harris, and draft pick in our secondary. We're not sure how well Harris will return either though. To put things in perspective, we're still better off now than when we had starting safeties like Marlon McCree and Marquand Manuel.
Rahim seems to cover better but gives up big plays. Now, he has played well at times which is why I can't see us giving up on him yet.
Nacho just can't cover at all. Early in the year guys were all over his nuts. Where did this guy go??? Does a players skill just diminish that quickly?? Isnt there a reason we wanted to sign Charles Woodson in the offseason?? Or do we need a new DB coach?
SS and MLB seem to be glaring needs really, moreso than even nickle. I would even be glad to see Bailey take a massive paycut at stay at nickle. Bailey seemed to do ok there. But I doubt that happens. I doubt Bailey takes a massive paycut, which is why releasing him is a real possibility.
Elway has some tough decisions this year.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 01:01 AM
It's not admit love, it's about sound reasoning.
He missed essentially the entire year with a lisfranc injury. Came back you really. Reinjured it, so basically missed what, the first 14 games or so, which also meant that there is no way he was at 100% game shape at end of season/playoffs.
Hence the reason that we have no way to judge where he is at right now. That isn't love, that's sound reasoning/logic.
You judging him on a year when he had a major injury is a knee jerk train.
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Not at all really.
I am judging him based on the other guys we have plus his diminish in skills.
Now at his age, a massive paycut and possibly him staying at nickle maybe that works out. Switching the old guy to safety like many are suggesting really doesn't make sense because that and even bigger area of concern.
Our whole secondary looks out of whack but I am certain on DRC and Harris being our best players in the secondary. They rarely allow anything to be caught.
This isn't some knee jerk Dry Bly sucks reaction. Bailey just isn't the Champ anymore.
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 01:07 AM
Rahim seems to cover better but gives up big plays. Now, he has played well at times which is why I can't see us giving up on him yet.
Nacho just can't cover at all. Early in the year guys were all over his nuts. Where did this guy go??? Does a players skill just diminish that quickly?? Isnt there a reason we wanted to sign Charles Woodson in the offseason?? Or do we need a new DB coach?
SS and MLB seem to be glaring needs really, moreso than even nickle. I would even be glad to see Bailey take a massive paycut at stay at nickle. Bailey seemed to do ok there. But I doubt that happens. I doubt Bailey takes a massive paycut, which is why releasing him is a real possibility.
Elway has some tough decisions this year.
Yep, I'd be fine with DRC, Harris and Moore, provided they are healthy with Bailey at Nickel or safety and a draft pick or free agent to fill the other spot.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 01:12 AM
Yep, I'd be fine with DRC, Harris and Moore, provided they are healthy with Bailey at Nickel or safety and a draft pick or free agent to fill the other spot.
Which means Nacho could end up being a backup. Id be fine with that if we fine a mean ass strong safety.
With all of the moving around of our LBs that could have also messed up what our secondary was doing.
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 01:19 AM
Which means Nacho could end up being a backup. Id be fine with that if we fine a mean ass strong safety.
With all of the moving around of our LBs that could have also messed up what our secondary was doing.
A player like Donte Whitner would be great.
WARHORSE
02-04-2014, 02:06 AM
I think Champ would be an awesome free safety. He doesnt miss tackles and hes got the head and ability to be very effective there.
AND he can still play corner in the redzone adding flexibility to the d.
bcbronc
02-04-2014, 03:17 AM
Top 4.
And a picture of him getting stiff-armed isn't proof of jack. The best linebackers of all time have been stiff-armed before. If he thinks he should move to safety, fine. I don't like it. A healthy Bailey has gotten beat twice from what I could see (and when I say beat, I don't mean the crossing pattern where he didn't have position. That's not beat), once on the wheel route last night (where as noted by Tned he was picked) and on the deep pass early in the Patriots game where Brady overthrew his receiver.
He was hurt this year, and he looked bad because he was hurt. He was back to being one of the best players on this defense for two playoff wins.
And the "4 years" comment. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Agreed that four years isn't accurate, but neither is your overall position. Champ no longer has the wheels to be a man coverage corner against most teams' top 3 receivers.
you mean the Earl Thomas we passed up to draft Moreno, when safety was a glaring need?
No, it's the Earl Thomas Seattle picked with the draft pick we gave them so we could draft an undersized DB and trade him a year or two later. I don't hate McDaniels and feel it should be pretty obvious now that he was right in dumping the overrated trash he inherited (Marshall isn't overrated, just the rest), but seeing Thomas play pretty much every week always stings a bit for me.
It's not admit love, it's about sound reasoning.
He missed essentially the entire year with a lisfranc injury. Came back you really. Reinjured it, so basically missed what, the first 14 games or so, which also meant that there is no way he was at 100% game shape at end of season/playoffs.
Hence the reason that we have no way to judge where he is at right now. That isn't love, that's sound reasoning/logic.
You judging him on a year when he had a major injury is a knee jerk train.
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No, it's not sound reasoning/logic. At best it's wishful thinking. What's sound in reasoning that Champ is 35+, plays a position in which athleticism is paramount, has visibly lost a couple of steps, and is now coming off a season where he's had a flat tire all year, therefore he'll be better next year.
Of course we have a way to judge where he's at, he's been on a steady downward projection the past few years (which is to be expected at his age), and in the Superbowl he was picked on on 3rd downs despite lining up against a mediocre reciever (and not Crabtree type of mediocre either). Sound reasoning suggests Champ and the FO recognize that he's now at best a #4 CB in a man scheme and pay him as such, or start using more zone to maximize his smarts and instincts and minimize his loss of speed and reaction, or try transitioning him to FS.
I've been pointing out for a while now that Superbowl champs tend to have elite level safety play. It's as frequent as elite level QB play on Superbowl champs--doesn't guarantee anything, and the odd team will win without elite level safety/QB play, but not many (and I'm not sure if any have in the past couple of decades without at least one of). On the other hand, elite level CB play is nice, but not a necessity. I mean SEA lost their #2 CB, didn't miss a beat; BALT lost their #1 CB, still took home the Lombardi--and both teams had either the best or near best safety duals in the league.
I also said 2-3 years ago that it would be better to move Champ to safety a year early than a year late. He's played at a high level since then, but we've come up short of the ultimate goal. Would better safeties have made a difference this year or last? Don't know. But I do feel if Champ wants to continue being a difference maker on the field, it's not going to happen at CB any more, especially with the amount of man coverage we run. Not convinced at this point Champs got enough left in his tank to make a successful transition to FS, but it's worth trying none the less.
sneakers
02-04-2014, 05:01 AM
Champ needs to do what Erwin Rommel did, and bite the bullet and retire and in return he will get a full state broncos funeral, or he can drag this out and make it really ugly and have his family executed instead.
Northman
02-04-2014, 05:29 AM
I only watched him on a few plays last night, but what I saw was champ trying hard to catch up and looking real slow. Maybe he would be a good safety. His leadership is always an asset. If he stays, I guess thats a good thing
He was ******* abysmal. But his flip flopping on the safety talk is even more baffling. At this point if he decides he does want to try it than let him try but either way his salary needs to come down a lot or let him walk.
Northman
02-04-2014, 05:31 AM
This picture has been floating around today:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bfk9h9mCMAA5sqD.jpg
I want to keep Champ for sentimental reasons, and i'm thrilled he is open to doing what it takes to stay on the team, but I am unsure about how good of a player he really is anymore. I want to believe that he can still play so I would be okay with giving him another shot.
Yea, there was a lot of this on Sunday night. People will make up every excuse in the book to try and defend his play but he's done as a CB. If another team wants to take a chance on him and his salary let them do it. He put in a lot of good years here but he isnt the same player and its not even close.
Northman
02-04-2014, 05:33 AM
Champ a top 4 or 5 CB??? Are you guys freakin nuts? He isnt even top 2 on our team and that's not saying much.
Chris Harris Jr and DRC are better than Champ at this stage.
Sorry ...I know it's a sentimental area but Champ played well last year based on everyone else staying healthy and doing their job too. This year not so much. As much as some of you might not want to say it, it might be time he hangs them up. Tough pill to swallow but look at the top defenses. Compare their secondarys and then compare ours. The only two bright spots I see right now are DRC and Harris. Those two play very well when healthy. Things seem to fall apart when they are not. When DRC got injured NE had a field day....that's how they made a comeback.
Some people are just in heavy denial dude. Dont waste your breath. :lol:
Apollo
02-04-2014, 05:35 AM
I think it's a shame when players 'live long enough to see themselves become the villain', to quote Batman. Champ should probably retire before he becomes seen as a nuisance to the team, someone we have to 'accommodate' for, rather than an asset. That being said, I think he could stay around one more year and see if he can contribute something.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 06:55 AM
Some people are just in heavy denial dude. Dont waste your breath. :lol:
I am not going to. If they can't see that he is now a liability in coverage then I don't know what else to tell them.
Like I said, I get it, I know Champ is a touchy subject. He was the face of this defense for years. He has been nothing but a proffessional on every level and loyal to this franchise. I love Champ and I say this in no disrespect but I think he's done here.
Cecil Lammey just posted this to me on facebook:
Cecil Lammey With $10 million cap number and ZERO guaranteed, Champ is as good as gone...or at least heavily restructured.
^^^ That's the key word, ZERO guarantee in his contract. We can outright cut him and he is guaranteed nothing. I think the Broncos need to let him test the market then make a decision. Cut him and put the ball in his hands. If he is open to staying then see what the market is for over the hill DB.
IMO, we need some fresh new blood. If we are going to take risk in the draft then I suggest it's on the defensive side of the ball. I cried for Vontaze Burfict and he is EXACTLY what we could have used in the middle at LB. You mean a projected 1st rounder isnt worth taking a risk on in the 6th round??? We need our defense to get mean and that might require taking a risk on some questionable players in the draft or even a questionable FA. Wasnt DRC a questionable FA???
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 07:06 AM
Just right now a friend of mine sent this to me, he is a Falcons fan. Now tell me this, If a Falcons fan can see this who isnt biased then why can't us fans???
Rich: I know this hurts, but a couple of things really stood out to me: Champ got torched all night (again), Manning should have changed the snap trigger (his leg life snap signal was easy to read and they went as soon as he moved that leg), the 5 o linemen got destroyed by the 4 def linemen, kick the damn ball out of the stadium (not to harvin). Denver will back at it again next year.
Some people are just in heavy denial dude. Dont waste your breath. :lol:
Come on North, I would think you would get it. It isn't about denial or love as Bronx yips, it's about roster depth. Now, the guy above that claims he's lucky to b the 4th best CB on a team, clearly doesn't watch much footaball and more important doesn't know much about the Broncos roster.
You've watched the Broncos spend the better part of the last 15 years trying to put two reliable corners on the field at the same time. It's the whole reason they traded for Champ in '02/'03 or whenever it was, and since then, it's been pretty much an annual search to find just ONE guy to line up opposite him. I bring that up, just to remind you guys that finding reliable QBs isn't like going to McD's and ordering a Big Mac.
In my case, I've referred to him possibly playing nickel or dime or possibly safety if his salary is adjusted. A lot depends on which players we get back (can we re-sign DRC, does Harris come back healthy, who do we pickup/draf, etc.).
As to the rest, I stand by it. Last year he played very well. He was no longer the shut down corner that could go up against any WR in the league. He no longer has that closing speed, where he can play the run/play action and then still turn and catch up to the WR he's playing. Now, if he doesn't use perfect technique, and the WR gets a step, then more than not he won't catch. Last year he was still among the best in the league at YAC, meaning that if they did catch it on him he was right there and took them down, it wasn't like he was completely torched and they had big gainers on him. Last year was solid, except for the Bal game, where he had one of the worst games of his career.
This year, my point was and is, it's hard judge his skill levels (we know they aren't going to be better than '12, just don't know how much worse), when he missed almost the entire year with a lisfranc foot injury. When he came back, they had to slowly increase his number of snaps over several games, because he wasn't in game shape, because he couldn't practice for something like five months (except for his brief attempt to come back too soon from the injury).
In the SB game, the big play down the left sideline that everyone remember was a pick play, that allowed the receiver to get a couple steps on him. After the Talib/Welker incident, everyone should know about pick plays now.
Anyway, if you want to go around trying to take shots at people attempting to have a discussion, go for it, but it's silly to go with the, "hey dude, it's like, they are like in denial, dude..." line, when this clearly isn't a case of Tebow fandom, but instead having a discussion about both his diminishing skill and the Broncos decades long battle to field a competent secondary.
CoachChaz
02-04-2014, 08:29 AM
If Champ stays on, it has to be as a dime back only. When you add the FACT that no athlete...especially a 35 year old athlete at a skill position...has EVER recovered 100% from a Lisfranc injury to the FACT that Champ's skills are diminishing, he simply becomes a player that cant be relied upon. I understand the love for Champ and I get the rah rah for Harris as well. But at the end of the day, Harris is far better as a nickel back and Champ can only truly be relied on as a dime/sub CB. We need to re-sign DRC and find another starting CB if we truly want to have a dominant secondary.
As far as safeties go...Duke and Adams graded out as 2 of the worst safeties in the NFL. It's actually sometimes painful to watch Duke play. Adams will likely not be re-signed and who knows what's in store for Moore with his health. THrough a combination of the draft and free agency, we really need to fix that portion of our defense significantly. If Champ takes a huge paycut or even better...retires, we can use that money to extend DRC and Harris. Via draft, I'd love to see a guy like Calvin Pryor drafted and then maybe chase guys like Verner, Shield, Whitner, Pollard in free agency. If we truly want to model the Seahawks defense, then we need to start at the back and work our way to the front.
At the end of the day, it's a business and all the love in the world for Champ and Harris has to be reeled in and the facts have to be weighed.
BroncoJoe
02-04-2014, 08:32 AM
I just don't see how there is any way possible we pay Champ $10MM next year. He's either gone, or takes a substantially reduced paycheck and role next year.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 08:33 AM
Our front looks to be the strongest right now. We have been shutting down the run. The edges still need work but the middle seems dominant at times, something we havent seen in a very long time.
Northman
02-04-2014, 08:34 AM
Come on North, I would think you would get it. It isn't about denial or love as Bronx yips,
I actually think for most people defending him it is about loyalty to him. Maybe not in your case but most of the posters i see defending him come across that way which is fine to a degree but not realistic.
In my case, I've referred to him possibly playing nickel or dime or possibly safety if his salary is adjusted.
My fear with putting him even as a nickel is that guys like Edelman would eat him alive. In theory it would be a smart move but because the slot receiver generally is a speedster i think he would be taken advantage of pretty quickly. Im open to him trying out for safety, like someone else mentioned though i think its about 2 years too late but im still open to it so as long as his contract is reworked.
CoachChaz
02-04-2014, 08:35 AM
Our front looks to be the strongest right now. We have been shutting down the run. The edges still need work but the middle seems dominant at times, something we havent seen in a very long time.
I agree. I think we could use another pass rusher to compliment Miller, but a guy like Jared Allen could come cheap on a 1-2 year deal. Wouldnt mind seeing Dansby come in to MLB on something similar.
Rebuild the secondary and fill in holes elsewhere.
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 08:38 AM
I agree. I think we could use another pass rusher to compliment Miller, but a guy like Jared Allen could come cheap on a 1-2 year deal. Wouldnt mind seeing Dansby come in to MLB on something similar.
Rebuild the secondary and fill in holes elsewhere.
Sign Karlos Dansby, Jared Allen, Donte Whitner, and move Champ to Free safety?
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 08:40 AM
We struck gold....ok maybe not gold but silver with Phillips. There has to be some FA vets out there that would love to come here. Allen is a beast! I would love that idea. We could really use a guy like that on the edges.
Isnt Ayers a FA?? Wouldnt we pay a guy like Allen over Ayers?
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 08:41 AM
Sign Karlos Dansby, Jared Allen, Donte Whitner, and move Champ to Free safety?
Forward this to John Elways desk please.
CoachChaz
02-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Sign Karlos Dansby, Jared Allen, Donte Whitner, and move Champ to Free safety?
EDIT: Let Champ retire or move to the dime and draft Calvin Pryor to play FS.
CrazyHorse
02-04-2014, 08:49 AM
EDIT: Let Champ retire or move to the dime and draft Calvin Pryor to play FS.
What about rolling with Rahim Moore if he comes back?
CoachChaz
02-04-2014, 08:54 AM
What about rolling with Rahim Moore if he comes back?
Key word is IF. I still think Pryor is the better long term answer
I just don't see how there is any way possible we pay Champ $10MM next year. He's either gone, or takes a substantially reduced paycheck and role next year.
Ditto.
pnbronco
02-04-2014, 06:41 PM
The one person that knows he won't get 10 mil a year is Champ. It's not a big secrete to him or the organization.
Nalen said it best. He can't buy a Championship, but he's had a taste of what it could be like and will want it bad.....
At the beginning of the season I would have said this is his last year. He's ready to move on and let's face it we all thought there was a dang good chance it would be with a ring. Between the injuries and the bad game it's going to leave a bad taste in his mouth. The last time I saw him he's not ready to go to pasture and given what happened on Sunday....I can almost hear the words bring it on, I'm not done yet. Just so glad he's finally figured out it's time to move on to a position he can be effective at.
DenBronx
02-04-2014, 07:25 PM
The one person that knows he won't get 10 mil a year is Champ. It's not a big secrete to him or the organization.
Nalen said it best. He can't buy a Championship, but he's had a taste of what it could be like and will want it bad.....
At the beginning of the season I would have said this is his last year. He's ready to move on and let's face it we all thought there was a dang good chance it would be with a ring. Between the injuries and the bad game it's going to leave a bad taste in his mouth. The last time I saw him he's not ready to go to pasture and given what happened on Sunday....I can almost hear the words bring it on, I'm not done yet. Just so glad he's finally figured out it's time to move on to a position he can be effective at.
Yeah but isnt it a little late in the game to make such a transition to one of the biggest NEEDS on our defense? Seems very risky to me.
He seems to do ok at nickle but that's with a healthy DRC and Harris covering the #1s and #2s. Champ knows how to play nickle so keep him there if he restructures his contract. But the FS and SS positions really need to be play makers. I want to see some attitude and swagger there. I want to see a ballhawk and a thumper. Champ is neither of those. Champ can cover and tackle in short distances of the field. It's down the field or in space he seems to get burned, that concerns me.
Yeah but isnt it a little late in the game to make such a transition to one of the biggest NEEDS on our defense? Seems very risky to me.
He seems to do ok at nickle but that's with a healthy DRC and Harris covering the #1s and #2s. Champ knows how to play nickle so keep him there if he restructures his contract. But the FS and SS positions really need to be play makers. I want to see some attitude and swagger there. I want to see a ballhawk and a thumper. Champ is neither of those. Champ can cover and tackle in short distances of the field. It's down the field or in space he seems to get burned, that concerns me.
Champ most certainly is a ballhawk and always has been, and I don't care if our safeties are thumpers as long as they're sure tacklers in both the pass and run game, as he's also always been.
He's lost a step, and that's no longer debatable; he's still got tons of experience, intelligence, quick sure recognition, reads and reaction, excellent tackling, and just because he can't run a 4.28 anymore doesn't mean he's down to 5 flat. He's everything one could want in a FS, and what's always been elite run stuffing for a CB would make him a solid SS.
Here's the thing though: Instead of people focusing on how he's due $10 million next year but none of it's guaranteed, so that makes cutting him with NO cap hit a no brainer, why not look at that as an opportunity? If we cut him he doesn't get a dime of that, so unless someone else wants to pay him and he wants to leave, even a trial FS deal for $1 million (which is pretty close to NFL minimum for guys with 10+ seasons) would give him more than the alternative. $2-3 million would be more reasonable, and that shouldn't make or break our cap.
Worst case scenario we get an experienced and versatile nickelback who can smother any slot guy who's not a blazing fast deep threat (and most slot guys rarely go deep anyway.)
Think of it this way: We paid Jammer $4 million this year to convert to FS; when that failed utterly we kept him as a 4th CB. Does anyone think Champ wouldn't be MUCH better at HALF the price next year, even if he CAN'T transition to safety despite being FAR better suited for it? Our great need at FS is EXACTLY why I've pushed this so long; it's not like we can just sign/draft one guy and suddenly everything's fine: Even if he is the long term answer, there's no guarantee something like what happened to Moore won't leave us in the lurch without Champ.
Champ can play a lot of spaces and does everything well; the only problem is his body no longer has enough speed to do what his mind knows quite as quickly as in the past. So play him off at safety where that's less of an issue, or play him short at nickel for the same reason. If nothing else, just the ability to play FS, NB OR CB in a pinch ought to be worth a couple million for versatility, same as a guard who can play center or tackle is more valuable than an equivalent guard who's JUST a guard.
I don't get it; everyone goes straight from "Champ's still one of the NFLs top 3 CBs" to "Champ's not even the 3rd best CB in DENVER." Sure, speed players go down fast, but not THAT fast.
Champ most certainly is a ballhawk and always has been, and I don't care if our safeties are thumpers as long as they're sure tacklers in both the pass and run game, as he's also always been.
He's lost a step, and that's no longer debatable; he's still got tons of experience, intelligence, quick sure recognition, reads and reaction, excellent tackling, and just because he can't run a 4.28 anymore doesn't mean he's down to 5 flat. He's everything one could want in a FS, and what's always been elite run stuffing for a CB would make him a solid SS.
Here's the thing though: Instead of people focusing on how he's due $10 million next year but none of it's guaranteed, so that makes cutting him with NO cap hit a no brainer, why not look at that as an opportunity? If we cut him he doesn't get a dime of that, so unless someone else wants to pay him and he wants to leave, even a trial FS deal for $1 million (which is pretty close to NFL minimum for guys with 10+ seasons) would give him more than the alternative. $2-3 million would be more reasonable, and that shouldn't make or break our cap.
Worst case scenario we get an experienced and versatile nickelback who can smother any slot guy who's not a blazing fast deep threat (and most slot guys rarely go deep anyway.)
Think of it this way: We paid Jammer $4 million this year to convert to FS; when that failed utterly we kept him as a 4th CB. Does anyone think Champ wouldn't be MUCH better at HALF the price next year, even if he CAN'T transition to safety despite being FAR better suited for it? Our great need at FS is EXACTLY why I've pushed this so long; it's not like we can just sign/draft one guy and suddenly everything's fine: Even if he is the long term answer, there's no guarantee something like what happened to Moore won't leave us in the lurch without Champ.
Champ can play a lot of spaces and does everything well; the only problem is his body no longer has enough speed to do what his mind knows quite as quickly as in the past. So play him off at safety where that's less of an issue, or play him short at nickel for the same reason. If nothing else, just the ability to play FS, NB OR CB in a pinch ought to be worth a couple million for versatility, same as a guard who can play center or tackle is more valuable than an equivalent guard who's JUST a guard.
Champ will get more than $1 million on the open market as a CB. He is not going to play for $45k above the veteran minimum salary, so that is out the window unless he is so desperate for another shot at the ring that he tells the Broncos he would be willing to play for $1, but since that violates the CBS, pay me the veteran minimum. On the open market, he is going to easily get something in the $3-6 range, more than likely $4-5, especially if a team puts in a playing time escalator, as their biggest concern is not going to be his lost step, but mangled foot.
I don't get it; everyone goes straight from "Champ's still one of the NFLs top 3 CBs" to "Champ's not even the 3rd best CB in DENVER." Sure, speed players go down fast, but not THAT fast.
Yea, it's kind of ridiculous. Now, granted, most didn't think he was a top 3 CB last year, but people have short memories. What they remember was him having the worst game of his career against Baltimore, and this season "sucking" which in fact was him missing just about the entire year with a serious foot injury.
We don't know how much he has left in the tank, but he played very well in the playoffs, so it appears there is quite a bit left.
pnbronco
02-05-2014, 10:03 AM
I think we will find out just how bad his foot really is. If they work out a new contract at a reduction then our medical staff will have thought it's healed enough to offer a new contract. If not then it is what it is.
IMO he wants to stay here. Denver is his home now and he is raising his son here and is really happy. I think he knows that his best chance at a ring is still here in Denver so he will work with the FO to make that happen, if he's healthy enough. I just know that Champ has a leadership ability that is very powerful. He doesn't say that much, but when he does the guys listen to him.
Champ will get more than $1 million on the open market as a CB. He is not going to play for $45k above the veteran minimum salary, so that is out the window unless he is so desperate for another shot at the ring that he tells the Broncos he would be willing to play for $1, but since that violates the CBS, pay me the veteran minimum. On the open market, he is going to easily get something in the $3-6 range, more than likely $4-5, especially if a team puts in a playing time escalator, as their biggest concern is not going to be his lost step, but mangled foot.
Anything's possible; it IS one of the high profile need positions where desperate and/or stupid GMs regularly and drastically overspend for average talent. Although, when I took a closer look, I realized that $4 million number that comes up for Jammers was his 2012 salary before the Bolts cut him loose; last summer Klis reported we basically gave hiim the same vet-minimum deal we're talking about here, plus another half million in playing time incentives: http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/06/03/quentin-jammer-contract-broncos/19962/
Maybe Champ can still demand more than that, but it's hard to believe it would be much more unless he finds a GM with a lot more dollars than sense. Hmm, that pun doesn't work in print. :(
Yea, it's kind of ridiculous. Now, granted, most didn't think he was a top 3 CB last year, but people have short memories. What they remember was him having the worst game of his career against Baltimore, and this season "sucking" which in fact was him missing just about the entire year with a serious foot injury.
We don't know how much he has left in the tank, but he played very well in the playoffs, so it appears there is quite a bit left.
Well, we really don't know at this point; Opening Day's a long way off (seems like an eternity, even more so than usual,) and his lingering injury this year makes things foggy. I THINK he stayed out the last time until it was as healed as it's ever gonna be, but I'm not Champ nor his doctor, so can only guess based on what we're told.
I don't think he's done though, both because he started every game once healthy (in my book, teams use nickel so much now the slot CB is a starter) and because he said he's not. Realistically, NOTHING on his current contract will hit our cap next year; he'll either restructure, go elsewhere or retire. He's still good enough to make a reasonable offer at a FS spot where we sorely lack and need talent, and has more than paid enough dues to deserve a chance to make the roster and lock in SOME kind of pay day like Jammer did.
Anything's possible; it IS one of the high profile need positions where desperate and/or stupid GMs regularly and drastically overspend for average talent. Although, when I took a closer look, I realized that $4 million number that comes up for Jammers was his 2012 salary before the Bolts cut him loose; last summer Klis reported we basically gave hiim the same vet-minimum deal we're talking about here, plus another half million in playing time incentives: http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/06/03/quentin-jammer-contract-broncos/19962/
Maybe Champ can still demand more than that, but it's hard to believe it would be much more unless he finds a GM with a lot more dollars than sense. Hmm, that pun doesn't work in print. :(
We'll see in a few months. You say a million, I say he gets 3-6 on the open market, probably a little less if he stays in Denver (2-3).
We'll see in a few months. You say a million, I say he gets 3-6 on the open market, probably a little less if he stays in Denver (2-3).
You may be right; as we both know, it's one of those possessions where teams are prone to overpay, and with top CBs being more critical than ever "overpay" is a relative term anyway.
However, I suspect most teams will look less at his performance over the season (especially since he missed nearly all of this one with injury, which will also be a factor) and mostly at the final GAME of his last two seasons. Fairly or not, that's an evaluation that favors us more than Champ; I doubt we'd have offered Jammer even $1.5 million if he'd only played 6½ games last year.
I think we will find out just how bad his foot really is. If they work out a new contract at a reduction then our medical staff will have thought it's healed enough to offer a new contract. If not then it is what it is.
IMO he wants to stay here. Denver is his home now and he is raising his son here and is really happy. I think he knows that his best chance at a ring is still here in Denver so he will work with the FO to make that happen, if he's healthy enough. I just know that Champ has a leadership ability that is very powerful. He doesn't say that much, but when he does the guys listen to him.
As I understood that Klis article Jammers offseason signing, the vet-minimum $1 million was only guaranteed (and thus hit the cap) IF he made the final roster; as a camp casualty, he'd have gotten a $50,000 workout bonus and an enthusiastic "thanks for coming in; we'll keep your resume on file.... :)" I wouldn't be that cold with Champ, but there's no reason we couldn't make an offer that's similar in principle: Make the roster, get paid; get cut, get a severance package. Hopefully a lot more than $50,000 after what he's given us for so long, but no big cap hit.
MOtorboat
02-05-2014, 03:09 PM
I hope you didn't make the Bailey and Jammer comparison with a straight face.
I hope you didn't make the Bailey and Jammer comparison with a straight face.
If we paid Jammer $1 million with another $½ million incentives to try FS, and kept him as a 4th CB when he couldn't transition, how much more will we pay Champ to try the same?
Sure Champ's much better than Jammer; millions of dollars worth better.
MOtorboat
02-05-2014, 05:05 PM
If we paid Jammer $1 million with another $½ million incentives to try FS, and kept him as a 4th CB when he couldn't transition, how much more will we pay Champ to try the same?
Sure Champ's much better than Jammer; millions of dollars worth better.
Because he never was or will be an 8-time All Pro.
The Raiders got Charles Woodson on a 1-year $4.3 million contract at age 36. Bailey is 36.
That's the type of contract Bailey will get.
MOtorboat
02-05-2014, 05:07 PM
I will also say that if the Broncos do release him and then low-ball him with a Jammer-like contract offer I will be severely disappointed.
TXBRONC
02-05-2014, 05:47 PM
I just don't see how there is any way possible we pay Champ $10MM next year. He's either gone, or takes a substantially reduced paycheck and role next year.
I don't either. I would imagine that Champ can see this coming too.
pnbronco
02-05-2014, 05:48 PM
Because he never was or will be an 8-time All Pro.
The Raiders got Charles Woodson on a 1-year $4.3 million contract at age 36. Bailey is 36.
That's the type of contract Bailey will get.
Mo this is what I'm thinking too. If he was to get 10 but get 4 plus some I think it's fair and over a 50% cut. You have to allow a person to keep their pride and respect their talent even with a pay reduction.
Broncos Mtnman
02-05-2014, 06:18 PM
I think Champ would do well as a safety. He can still tackle with the best of them and he would do better in a role where he isn't expected to play tight coverage.
I think his leadership is an intangible that must be considered too.
However, I think he would have to take a major pay cut in order to make it work. I'm not sure what his mindset is in that department. Hopefully, he realizes that his big money years are behind him.
Because he never was or will be an 8-time All Pro.
The Raiders got Charles Woodson on a 1-year $4.3 million contract at age 36. Bailey is 36.
That's the type of contract Bailey will get.
Reasonable. Again, the point wasn't Champ=Jammer, but Champ>Jammer (by a lot,) whome we still gave $1.1 million with another $400,000 or so of incentives, so we'll probably offer Champ a lot more. Just nothing in the neighborhood of $10 million, and NONE of his current contract is guaranteed for next year, so we can replace it with no difficulty so long as he's OK with the offer. The "current" contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, because it's pretty much given the team would release him with regret rather than pay it, and he knows that as well as the rest of us.
Now, what's a fair figure is between Elway and Champ. The Woodson comparison isn't a perfect fit though, because Woodson wasn't coming off an injury-plagued season, and went to a new team toward which he had no existing loyalty, rather than re-signing with the team where he's spent a decade. I'd expect that to lower the price, but obviously can't be sure. With the injury and age, I'd be unsurprised if a lot of it were incentives, too, so if it doesn't work out or there are more longterm injury problems our cap hit's lower so we can find a rental sub.
Is he really supposed to get $10mm next year??? Wow. I am a sentimental gal. I wish sports were like real jobs and you got payed the most based on everything you have done for your organization. The reality is it doesn't work that way in pro sports. I find it sad that an unproven rookie can get paid more than a pro bowl vet, but tis the game. I hope we can structure him back in - at safety. His days at corner our done IMHO. I would like to see him get a ring though. I think he would have retired had we won on Sunday.
MOtorboat
02-05-2014, 07:23 PM
Reasonable. Again, the point wasn't Champ=Jammer, but Champ>Jammer (by a lot,) whome we still gave $1.1 million with another $400,000 or so of incentives, so we'll probably offer Champ a lot more. Just nothing in the neighborhood of $10 million, and NONE of his current contract is guaranteed for next year, so we can replace it with no difficulty so long as he's OK with the offer. The "current" contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, because it's pretty much given the team would release him with regret rather than pay it, and he knows that as well as the rest of us.
Now, what's a fair figure is between Elway and Champ. The Woodson comparison isn't a perfect fit though, because Woodson wasn't coming off an injury-plagued season, and went to a new team toward which he had no existing loyalty, rather than re-signing with the team where he's spent a decade. I'd expect that to lower the price, but obviously can't be sure. With the injury and age, I'd be unsurprised if a lot of it were incentives, too, so if it doesn't work out or there are more longterm injury problems our cap hit's lower so we can find a rental sub.
You really don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?
Woodson missed half of 2012 with a broken collarbone. And no loyalty to the team that drafted him and he spent the better part of his career with?
You can't come up with a better comparison, and considering that contract came just last year, that contract is basically going to set Champ's market. Not Jammer.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-05-2014, 07:32 PM
It is my opinion that the idea of him being willing to move to safety has to be considered in the context of when he said it. Personally, I think the question was probably just as inappropriate as asking Manning if he was ashamed. Bailey was in very emotional state, having just lost the SB in blowout fashion, but he wasn't exactly the problem.
Yes, he got beat a few times, but he wasn't the one who couldn't apply any pressure up front. Even Seattle's secondary would have had big plays made against if Manning had time to throw. The pick six probably would have been a TD if it wasn't tipped. DT had beaten the coverage and was behind Sherman and the safety who was helping over the top. That's where Manning was trying to go with the ball.
You really don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?
Woodson missed half of 2012 with a broken collarbone. And no loyalty to the team that drafted him and he spent the better part of his career with?
A broken collarbone didn't slow Woodson down, and the Raiders didn't draft Woodson. It's not the same situation.
You can't come up with a better comparison, and considering that contract came just last year, that contract is basically going to set Champ's market. Not Jammer.
We'll see. I never said Jammer would set Champs market, but just the opposite: That Champs market must be quite a bit higher.
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 08:52 AM
A broken collarbone didn't slow Woodson down, and the Raiders didn't draft Woodson. It's not the same situation.
We'll see. I never said Jammer would set Champs market, but just the opposite: That Champs market must be quite a bit higher.
The Raiders didn't draft Woodson?
Who did?
And I figured you'd come back with something stupid like a collarbone is excluded from the "injury-riddled" season line just to cover yourself because you don't know what you're talking about.
Northman
02-06-2014, 09:02 AM
The Raiders didn't draft Woodson?
Who did?
And I figured you'd come back with something stupid like a collarbone is excluded from the "injury-riddled" season line just to cover yourself because you don't know what you're talking about.
Im assuming you guys are talking about Charles Woodson who was indeed drafted by the Raiders. Rod Woodson was drafted by the Steelers.
The Raiders didn't draft Woodson?
Who did?
You're right; I forgot he started there before going to the Pack. After Oakland franchised him and then he left two years later though, I doubt he feels much Raider Nation loyalty.
And I figured you'd come back with something stupid like a collarbone is excluded from the "injury-riddled" season line just to cover yourself because you don't know what you're talking about.
A broken collarbone won't hobble a player already slowing at a speed position. Rodgers broke his and came back for the playoffs; he didn't have a foot injury at a speed position (and isn't 36.)
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 10:39 AM
You can stick your head in the sand and spout off dumb stuff all day (typically what you do anyway, for that matter), but it's pretty odd to deny that Woodson's contract last year is basically the blueprint for Bailey's this year.
Exact same position, similar accolades and same exact age.
I'd expect Bailey to make between $4.5 and $5 this year.
BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 10:54 AM
You're right; I forgot he started there before going to the Pack. After Oakland franchised him and then he left two years later though, I doubt he feels much Raider Nation loyalty.
A broken collarbone won't hobble a player already slowing at a speed position. Rodgers broke his and came back for the playoffs; he didn't have a foot injury at a speed position (and isn't 36.)
Holy.
CrazyHorse
02-06-2014, 10:57 AM
Joel's right. A Lisfranc injury on a guy that relies on speed isn't the same as a broken collarbone.
Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 11:13 AM
But they saw Champ come back from the lisfranc and know he's nearly up to full speed NOW. Next year he'll be 2 years off his lisfranc injury, and a LOT of players of come back 2 years at full speed from a lisfranc. Clady will be the one that has the slower start next year due to the injury. I'm just glad he had it EARLY in the season to start recovering for next rather than near the playoffs....but I digress.
Champ's injury won't come into play as far as negotiations. He was back on the field, STARTING at corner for the Broncos this year.... after his injury. If the Broncos felt he wasn't healthy enough to play corner, don't start him. That's what his agent will/would counter with,and they would be 100% correct in doing so.
So they can't turn around and say that Champ's injury is a reason to consider a LOWER offer than the 4-5 million that has been given to other players with the same accolades moving in the same direction. They can use his detoriating skills and speed due to age. They can say the "this team is moving in a younger direction," but they can't reasonably try to say "well, because you are injured we can't offer you more." That would just end up biting them in the ass in both negotiations, and public relations.
BroncoNut
02-06-2014, 11:35 AM
Champ a top 4 or 5 CB??? Are you guys freakin nuts? He isnt even top 2 on our team and that's not saying much.
Chris Harris Jr and DRC are better than Champ at this stage.
Sorry ...I know it's a sentimental area but Champ played well last year based on everyone else staying healthy and doing their job too. This year not so much. As much as some of you might not want to say it, it might be time he hangs them up. Tough pill to swallow but look at the top defenses. Compare their secondarys and then compare ours. The only two bright spots I see right now are DRC and Harris. Those two play very well when healthy. Things seem to fall apart when they are not. When DRC got injured NE had a field day....that's how they made a comeback.
thank you. to say he's been bad the last 4 seasons is a bit of a stretch, but Mo coming back with that is just as much of one. Champ has obviously declined and that has been pretty apparent in the last 2 post seasons to me. And when I say "declined" I mean pretty much in keeping up . he would probably make a very good safety. he has the smarts, and skill, that's for sure.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 12:16 PM
But they saw Champ come back from the lisfranc and know he's nearly up to full speed NOW. Next year he'll be 2 years off his lisfranc injury, and a LOT of players of come back 2 years at full speed from a lisfranc. Clady will be the one that has the slower start next year due to the injury. I'm just glad he had it EARLY in the season to start recovering for next rather than near the playoffs....but I digress.
Champ's injury won't come into play as far as negotiations. He was back on the field, STARTING at corner for the Broncos this year.... after his injury. If the Broncos felt he wasn't healthy enough to play corner, don't start him. That's what his agent will/would counter with,and they would be 100% correct in doing so.
So they can't turn around and say that Champ's injury is a reason to consider a LOWER offer than the 4-5 million that has been given to other players with the same accolades moving in the same direction. They can use his detoriating skills and speed due to age. They can say the "this team is moving in a younger direction," but they can't reasonably try to say "well, because you are injured we can't offer you more." That would just end up biting them in the ass in both negotiations, and public relations.
Charles Woodson was still playing at a high level when Oakland gave him that contract. We can't really say that about Champ. He played well against NE and SD, but as others have pointed out, he's the 3rd best corner on the team. Is that really worth $4-5 million? He's also an unknown at safety. Both of the Woodson's were much bigger players. The only safety position Champ could play is FS, and we have Rahim Moore. Are you really sure at this point of his career he'd be a better FS than Rahim? I think Champ is gonna need to take $2-3 million to stay, and that would make him CB#3.
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 12:19 PM
Charles Woodson was still playing at a high level when Oakland gave him that contract. We can't really say that about Champ. He played well against NE and SD, but as others have pointed out, he's the 3rd best corner on the team. Is that really worth $4-5 million? He's also an unknown at safety. Both of the Woodson's were much bigger players. The only safety position Champ could play is FS, and we have Rahim Moore. Are you really sure at this point of his career he'd be a better FS than Rahim? I think Champ is gonna need to take $2-3 million to stay, and that would make him CB#3.
San Francisco just signed their nickel back to a deal worth $4 mil for 4 years. Nickel back market is $4 mil a year. How is Denver going to get away with low balling Bailey? Maybe loyalty?
Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 01:01 PM
Charles Woodson was still playing at a high level when Oakland gave him that contract. We can't really say that about Champ. He played well against NE and SD, but as others have pointed out, he's the 3rd best corner on the team. Is that really worth $4-5 million? He's also an unknown at safety. Both of the Woodson's were much bigger players. The only safety position Champ could play is FS, and we have Rahim Moore. Are you really sure at this point of his career he'd be a better FS than Rahim? I think Champ is gonna need to take $2-3 million to stay, and that would make him CB#3.
Charles was moved from corner to safety in GB because he was losing a step, and he played TERRIBLY at safety while in GB....which is why he was available to search on the open market and finally found a home in Oakland.
I'm actually not saying that we NEED to sign CHamp. I've been saying that I believe we let Champ go because of his detoriating speed and quickness. But the NFL is about comparing contracts to each other around the NFL. If you remember, some fans around here thought that Clady wouldnt' get "top LT money" because he wasn't as good as someone else.
I'm saying that Champ's contract...if we wish to keep him...will have to be aroudn the 4-5 million dollar range no matter where we put him. Either at the nickle, or try him at safety...we can't expect to sign him for a less than market value....and that value is going to be based on a starting player.
But they saw Champ come back from the lisfranc and know he's nearly up to full speed NOW. Next year he'll be 2 years off his lisfranc injury, and a LOT of players of come back 2 years at full speed from a lisfranc. Clady will be the one that has the slower start next year due to the injury. I'm just glad he had it EARLY in the season to start recovering for next rather than near the playoffs....but I digress.
Champ's injury won't come into play as far as negotiations. He was back on the field, STARTING at corner for the Broncos this year.... after his injury. If the Broncos felt he wasn't healthy enough to play corner, don't start him. That's what his agent will/would counter with,and they would be 100% correct in doing so.
So they can't turn around and say that Champ's injury is a reason to consider a LOWER offer than the 4-5 million that has been given to other players with the same accolades moving in the same direction. They can use his detoriating skills and speed due to age. They can say the "this team is moving in a younger direction," but they can't reasonably try to say "well, because you are injured we can't offer you more." That would just end up biting them in the ass in both negotiations, and public relations.
If that was the full speed fully healed Champ we saw in the SB, that's not much of an argument for a huge contract next year; if the injury still limited him then THAT'S a counterargument.
$4 million's probably a fair offer (and a lot better than 2.5X that,) but I'd probably make 25-50% of it incentives, say, $2.5 million guaranteed, and perhaps as much more for performance.
Anything more is legacy pay, IMHO, whether it's from us or someone else.
BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 01:19 PM
San Francisco just signed their nickel back to a deal worth $4 mil for 4 years. Nickel back market is $4 mil a year. How is Denver going to get away with low balling Bailey? Maybe loyalty?
San Francisco signed Nickelback? Good God!!!
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 01:37 PM
San Francisco signed Nickelback? Good God!!!
Word is all their plays will look the same, but somehow they'll get to No. 1.
BroncoJoe
02-06-2014, 01:57 PM
Bailey won't get $10MM from us or anyone else. How much less? I honestly can't see him switching teams for a measly million or two when we're so close. I think he comes back at less than or equal to $4MM.
reimx007
02-06-2014, 02:05 PM
If he took a huge pay cut, and played for Ihenacho on passing downs, that would make a lot of sense. I'd love to keep him around, even if it is a reduced role.
Ravage!!!
02-06-2014, 02:35 PM
If that was the full speed fully healed Champ we saw in the SB, that's not much of an argument for a huge contract next year; if the injury still limited him then THAT'S a counterargument.
$4 million's probably a fair offer (and a lot better than 2.5X that,) but I'd probably make 25-50% of it incentives, say, $2.5 million guaranteed, and perhaps as much more for performance.
Anything more is legacy pay, IMHO, whether it's from us or someone else.
I doubt that he was up to full speed, but speedy enough to start for us during the last two games... with the FO keeping track on his progress. Point being, we can't say "you aren't healthy, thus we can't pay you"...because we just thought he was healthy enough to start. If the going rate for a starting Nickle is 4-5 milllion... then that is what we would expect to pay Champ at that position. If the Woodson signed for 4-5 million as a safety in Oakland... a guy that has nearly thte same accolades, the same skills, and has had injuries to overcome along with his age....then that is what we would have to pay.
But the "incentive" package doesn't work with players, and I don't blame them.
I think its pretty obvious to everyone that Champ isn't going to get top dollar, anywhere, as a starting corner. Age has taken it's toll as it does with all players. I think Mo has it nailed. We sign him for around 4 million a year, and then from there we have him either at Nickel or at safety, depending on how he transitions to the new position. It very well could be a situation where Champ doesn't play safety well, we just don't know yet.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 04:00 PM
San Francisco just signed their nickel back to a deal worth $4 mil for 4 years. Nickel back market is $4 mil a year. How is Denver going to get away with low balling Bailey? Maybe loyalty?
Valid point- I would be curious to see how much is guaranteed, what their skill level is, etc.
I doubt that he was up to full speed, but speedy enough to start for us during the last two games... with the FO keeping track on his progress. Point being, we can't say "you aren't healthy, thus we can't pay you"...because we just thought he was healthy enough to start. If the going rate for a starting Nickle is 4-5 milllion... then that is what we would expect to pay Champ at that position. If the Woodson signed for 4-5 million as a safety in Oakland... a guy that has nearly thte same accolades, the same skills, and has had injuries to overcome along with his age....then that is what we would have to pay.
But the "incentive" package doesn't work with players, and I don't blame them.
I think its pretty obvious to everyone that Champ isn't going to get top dollar, anywhere, as a starting corner. Age has taken it's toll as it does with all players. I think Mo has it nailed. We sign him for around 4 million a year, and then from there we have him either at Nickel or at safety, depending on how he transitions to the new position. It very well could be a situation where Champ doesn't play safety well, we just don't know yet.
There are many things unknown about Champs future, hence the incentive pay. It doesn't sit well with players because they tend to take it personally, but the bottom line's the bottom line: If they're as good as they think are, they'll reach those incentives and get paid; if not, they won't. Age, injury and/or a poor safety transition could all make paying Champ $4-6 million an awfully wasteful investment; if he's WORTH $4-6 million there's nothing wrong with him EARNING it, on next years performance, not the last last fifteens.
I love Champ to death and want only the best for him, but don't want to lose a SB just because paying him $5 million to be a situational player prevented filling the other holes preventing a title.
Lancane
02-06-2014, 04:19 PM
I really don't know if he still has enough speed to close in from the safety position, but keeping him to man the nickel does make sense, because I think he can still match speed with tight ends, slot receivers and tailbacks. The average salary for nickel corners is about 2 mil a season, I don't see Denver giving him more then 3 million a season at that is at the high end.
TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 04:41 PM
Charles Woodson was still playing at a high level when Oakland gave him that contract. We can't really say that about Champ. He played well against NE and SD, but as others have pointed out, he's the 3rd best corner on the team. Is that really worth $4-5 million? He's also an unknown at safety. Both of the Woodson's were much bigger players. The only safety position Champ could play is FS, and we have Rahim Moore. Are you really sure at this point of his career he'd be a better FS than Rahim? I think Champ is gonna need to take $2-3 million to stay, and that would make him CB#3.
I don't think so Al. Green Bay let him go because Woodson wasn't same level that he was when they won the Super Bowl and they're are the injury problems.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 04:51 PM
I don't think so Al. Green Bay let him go because Woodson wasn't same level that he was when they won the Super Bowl and they're are the injury problems.
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 05:11 PM
There are many things unknown about Champs future, hence the incentive pay. It doesn't sit well with players because they tend to take it personally, but the bottom line's the bottom line: If they're as good as they think are, they'll reach those incentives and get paid; if not, they won't. Age, injury and/or a poor safety transition could all make paying Champ $4-6 million an awfully wasteful investment; if he's WORTH $4-6 million there's nothing wrong with him EARNING it, on next years performance, not the last last fifteens.
I love Champ to death and want only the best for him, but don't want to lose a SB just because paying him $5 million to be a situational player prevented filling the other holes preventing a title.
How could you ever possibly prove that Denver lost the Super Bowl because they paid a player market value? That's an asinine statement.
So, Joel, we lost the Super Bowl this season. Which contract lost it?
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 05:11 PM
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
Wait.
You're not?
claymore
02-06-2014, 05:14 PM
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
My original name on the old Broncos Country site was Craig Morton. Topscribe thought I was really Craig Morton. I had to turn down numerous unwarranted sexual advances from him.
Slick
02-06-2014, 05:16 PM
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
I think I've called you Mr. Mayor a few times.
Slick
02-06-2014, 05:16 PM
My original name on the old Broncos Country site was Craig Morton. Topscribe thought I was really Craig Morton. I had to turn down numerous unwarranted sexual advances from him.
That's hilarious.
TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 05:17 PM
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
I thought calling you Al was better than AW4M. :D
Denver Native (Carol)
02-06-2014, 05:17 PM
Bailey acknowledged that he hadn’t watched tape of the game yet. He also hasn’t allowed himself to think too far into what his future holds for next season – although he noted that he isn’t the only one on the Broncos roster who enters the offseason with matters to consider.
“A little bit – you don’t want to think about that right now,” Bailey said. “I think it’s obvious for everybody in this locker room. Most people in this locker room have to deal with something coming up.”
When that something does come up, Bailey said he’s not worried about his role with the team and that he’s comfortable with those matters being out of his hands.
“I don’t control anything,” Bailey said. “I’m under contract for another year, so I’m not concerned with what’s going on, really.”
Whatever happens, the cornerback said he will address it at the appropriate time.
“Those decisions are not made by me,” he said. “I’ll deal with that when it comes. There’s nothing I can do about that right now.”
full article - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Bailey-You-Have-to-Move-On/b250ba2d-3d4a-4cf0-a8b2-012d35d0968a
dogfish
02-06-2014, 05:23 PM
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
sorry, dude. . . you're al here. . .
DenBronx
02-06-2014, 06:41 PM
I don't think so Al. Green Bay let him go because Woodson wasn't same level that he was when they won the Super Bowl and they're are the injury problems.
Feel free to call me Dennis. It always feels weird when people call me Al. I'm not Al Wilson. :laugh:
Lol I get called Den or DB all the time and my real names Ryan. Doesnt bother me at all....its just your forum name dude! :)
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 06:57 PM
sorry, dude. . . you're al here. . .
Yo dog, why you gotta do me like that?
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 06:58 PM
I think I've called you Mr. Mayor a few times.
It makes me feel distinquished. I like it.
dogfish
02-06-2014, 06:58 PM
Yo dog, why you gotta do me like that?
just how it is, meng. . . when we meet up in person, peeps from the board still call me dog. . . :D
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-06-2014, 06:59 PM
just how it is, meng. . . when we meet up in person, peeps from the board still call me dog. . . :D
Yeah, I met someone in Denver from the boards when I went to a game in 11', and he called me Al.
How could you ever possibly prove that Denver lost the Super Bowl because they paid a player market value? That's an asinine statement.
So, Joel, we lost the Super Bowl this season. Which contract lost it?
Nice try, but that's only journeyman baiting. ;)
MOtorboat
02-06-2014, 07:43 PM
Nice try, but that's only journeyman baiting. ;)
Meaning you don't want to answer that question because it was a dumb statement on your part?
I think everyone makes a great point. If he is not fully recovered from his injuries it will slow him even more than age already has - but we can't predict injuries or recovery - so it's hard to base a persons worth on that alone. Would I love to pay champ for everything he has done - yes. But in all reality we have to pay him based on what he can do. And based on injuries AND his play over the last two years, he could never expect $10m not even $5. $2-3 tops with major incentives being a good majority. We can't afford to tie up money in players who aren't performing (for whatever reason). It comes down to what Ms Janet Jackson so eloquently said "What have you done for me lately".
Meaning you don't want to answer that question because it was a dumb statement on your part?
How 'bout I meet you halfway and agree there was a dumb statement there that merits no response? :)
TXBRONC
02-06-2014, 08:37 PM
I think everyone makes a great point. If he is not fully recovered from his injuries it will slow him even more than age already has - but we can't predict injuries or recovery - so it's hard to base a persons worth on that alone. Would I love to pay champ for everything he has done - yes. But in all reality we have to pay him based on what he can do. And based on injuries AND his play over the last two years, he could never expect $10m not even $5. $2-3 tops with major incentives being a good majority. We can't afford to tie up money in players who aren't performing (for whatever reason). It comes down to what Ms Janet Jackson so eloquently said "What have you done for me lately".
I think Champ is healed up otherwise I don't think he would have been out on the field. That said, I'm not sure he can hold up as starting corner anymore. I could see Champ as a nickleback. The bottom line as I see is Champ will play so he's going have take a pay cut.
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