O line issues

[Jsteve01]

So admittedly, i only got to watch 1 and half quarters of the game, but I hear Franklin looked like trash. I've got a simple fix. He's not a tackle. He is and always will be beaten badly by speed rushers. So, let Beadles walk, slide Franklin to LG and Clark to RT. Easy fix.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Oline? Get healthy

[Simple Jaded]

I like this solution, not only in pass pro but putting better run blocking on the left side would be nice too.

[Jsteve01]

Oline? Get healthy The only person missing until vasquez went down is Clady and Clark has far exceeded expectation. Getting Clady healthy doesn't fix Franklin's inability to pass protect against athletic pass rushers. Did they ever happen to utilize Dreesen or Green in pass pro to help Franklin? Or did they just leave him to the wolves all night?

[MOtorboat]

One game.

Wrong game. But still one game.

[CrazyHorse]

One game.

Wrong game. But still one game.

You can always look to make improvements. Shuffling the line might be one.

[MOtorboat]

You can always look to make improvements. Shuffling the line might be one.

Why would you even tinker with this offense, other than replacing Decker and probably Moreno?

Sure, the chances of it breaking records next year like it did this year are slim, but it's still going to be a top offense. The Saints haven't broken any records, but they're still a good offense.

Team needs to get healthy on defense, and seriously look at its middle linebacker situation, it's pass rush and it's secondary.

[Jsteve01]

Mo do you think Franklin does or does not struggle against athletic edge players?

[MOtorboat]

Mo do you think Franklin does or does not struggle against athletic edge players?

He struggled yesterday. The whole team struggled yesterday.

I'm not remembering him struggling much at all actually. What, 18 sacks in 19 games?

[CrazyHorse]

Can't we at least entertain the thought of mixing it up a bit. We'll likely lose Beadles and probably cut Kuper so something will have to be done either way you look at it.

[MOtorboat]

Can't we at least entertain the thought of mixing it up a bit. We'll likely lose Beadles and probably cut Kuper so something will have to be done either way you look at it.

I just don't ever see a football lineup like a basketball lineup. Or a baseball lineup. You don't just mix things up to see how it goes.

Maybe in a preseason game, or very early in the season, but here's the problem. If you switch Franklin to guard, you're stuck with him at guard once the season starts. You don't tinker with a lineup when you only have a 16 game schedule and limited practices.

When you have 82 and 162 you can mix things up. But throwing players willy nilly around the field and hoping their athleticism will change things in the NFL is a recipe for disaster.

[Jsteve01]

well according to PFF Franklin graded out as the top rated pass blocking RT in the league. So what do I know? I'm working off of a horrid performance on the games biggest stage and stories of him getting eaten alive by Doom and Miller in camp for a few years.

[Joel]

I don't see how moving a bad LT to RT fixes any problems. Moving Franklin to Beadles' spot might give us a better LG (it could hardly do other,) and we might finally get some LINE SURGE there, stop letting defenders into our backfield so Moreno and Ball don't have to break tackles or make guys miss just to reach the line, so in the sense of improving LG that's wise. But improving RT?

In case everyone missed it, nearly every quick agile edge rusher Clark faced had him chasing his tail ALL SEASON, so that won't fix the problem with an elite D doing that to Franklin in ONE GAME. We may just need to bite the bullet and spend an early pick on a good OT; Clady's nearing 30 and has had serious injuries the last few years, and we'll need a new tackle anyway if Franklin moves to guard, because Clark is NOT the guy to replace him.

Franklin's improved each year though and is still better than Clark, who's at least a serviceable backup in a pinch, so maybe we should spend an early pick on a quality guard. Maybe—just possibly MAYBE—tackles aren't the only linemen that matter and shoving in a failed tackle or hoping someone cuts a good guard isn't the best way to find an All Pro guard.

Either way, I'd spent an early pick on an offensive lineman.

[CrazyHorse]

I just don't ever see a football lineup like a basketball lineup. Or a baseball lineup. You don't just mix things up to see how it goes.

Maybe in a preseason game, or very early in the season, but here's the problem. If you switch Franklin to guard, you're stuck with him at guard once the season starts. You don't tinker with a lineup when you only have a 16 game schedule and limited practices.

When you have 82 and 162 you can mix things up. But throwing players willy nilly around the field and hoping their athleticism will change things in the NFL is a recipe for disaster.

Didn't the Ravens totally change their line last year when they won the Super Bowl? I know it's not common but it can happen.

[CrazyHorse]

well according to PFF Franklin graded out as the top rated pass blocking RT in the league. So what do I know? I'm working off of a horrid performance on the games biggest stage and stories of him getting eaten alive by Doom and Miller in camp for a few years.

If that's the case Clark to replace Beadles is probably a better scenario. Julius needs to get better at blocking too.

[TXBRONC]

Good grief the guy was solid all year long now all of the sudden they should move him after one game. No.

[BroncoNut]

So admittedly, i only got to watch 1 and half quarters of the game, but I hear Franklin looked like trash. I've got a simple fix. He's not a tackle. He is and always will be beaten badly by speed rushers. So, let Beadles walk, slide Franklin to LG and Clark to RT. Easy fix.

thanks for addressing this. if yiou review my take on what Denver must do to beat the hawks, you will see where I say the O-line has got to win the battle at the LOS. it's interesting to me how the 11th hour peyton fans say, boy, I never saw him perform that poorly, etc. .... but the thing is, you put most any qb of his class in the position, and they are going to struggle,.. a lot of coverage pressure occurred and the rush of the hawks was on. It's difficult for me to watch every aspect of a game, I'm usually focused on what's going on immediate to the ball like most, I spose. and admittedly, I don't really understand the technique involved with most to the line positions. but my assessment was a no brainer, imo of course.

[Mike]

Why would you even tinker with this offense, other than replacing Decker and probably Moreno?

Sure, the chances of it breaking records next year like it did this year are slim, but it's still going to be a top offense. The Saints haven't broken any records, but they're still a good offense.

Team needs to get healthy on defense, and seriously look at its middle linebacker situation, it's pass rush and it's secondary.

Because the oline sucks. Manning masks it tremendously, but at the end of the day, they still suck. Oline should be a priority this offseason.

[CoachChaz]

Clady comes back (hopefully at full speed), Vasquez earns All-Pro honors, Franklin has one bad game...and suddenly we need to blow up the line. LOLOL

[BroncoNut]

Because the oline sucks. Manning masks it tremendously, but at the end of the day, they still suck. Oline should be a priority this offseason.

yeah, I'm not so sure this thread should really be all that dismissive by some. It's pretty obvious, to me anyway, that we have some things to address when playing in super bowls.

[TXBRONC]

Because the oline sucks. Manning masks it tremendously, but at the end of the day, they still suck. Oline should be a priority this offseason.

No as good as Manning is giving up only 18 sacks for the season is not all because of Manning.

[BroncoNut]

well, my posts don't seem to be making much of a splash here. back to the lounge I guess.

[BroncoNut]

Can't we at least entertain the thought of mixing it up a bit. We'll likely lose Beadles and probably cut Kuper so something will have to be done either way you look at it.

no. let the football brilliant in Chaz and MO do our thinking in that department. I mean who are we really to question or challenge them?

[Hawgdriver]

So admittedly, i only got to watch 1 and half quarters of the game, but I hear Franklin looked like trash. I've got a simple fix. He's not a tackle. He is and always will be beaten badly by speed rushers. So, let Beadles walk, slide Franklin to LG and Clark to RT. Easy fix.

Sandy Clough on 104.3 just said the same thing.

[Ravage!!!]

I t hink we have forgotten that we had to replace 2 centers and and all-pro LT. Having to shuffle players around so much on the OL to fix holes eats up depth FAST...... just look at our Defense to see how quickly things can get without your top starters in.

Also, I hope this puts an complete END to the "Clady is easily replaced, lets trade him"...talk.

[Mike]

Clady comes back (hopefully at full speed), Vasquez earns All-Pro honors, Franklin has one bad game...and suddenly we need to blow up the line. LOLOL

It isn't blowing up the entire line. Vasquez and Clady (if he comes back healthy) are studs. But Beadles and Ramirez are backup material, both should be upgraded. Franklin is solid and is a keeper...I don't know how easy it is to plug and play. I think it there is more to it than just moving him to guard. Clark has shown some talent, not sure if he could be used as trade bait or if he has the aptitude to change positions on the oline (again with the plug and play issue).


No as good as Manning is giving up only 18 sacks for the season is not all because of Manning.

Manning makes all the reads, the diagnosis and instructs the line, and still has to do a short drop quick pass on the majority of his passes. You put another QB in behind the oline and the number of sacks would go up dramatically. It is all because of Manning. He makes the oline look much better than they are.

[MOtorboat]

Didn't the Ravens totally change their line last year when they won the Super Bowl? I know it's not common but it can happen.

And they missed the playoffs.

[CoachChaz]

And they missed the playoffs.

Not only that, but they had to make changes. Their line was a shamble most of last year

[CrazyHorse]

And they missed the playoffs.

They shuffled them in the playoffs last year then won the Super Bowl. I think them missing the playoffs had a lot more to do with losing a lot of free agents than shuffling their line...

[TXBRONC]

Didn't the Ravens totally change their line last year when they won the Super Bowl? I know it's not common but it can happen.

CH they didn't change up their offensive line just because they got wild hair up their ass. They did it out of necessity. The also had to do it again this year and what was the end result?

[Joel]

CH they didn't change up their offensive line just because they got wild hair up their ass. They did it out of necessity. The also had to do it again this year and what was the end result?
Oh, so it's OK if it's NECESSARY; keep me posted on whether we ever have a game where an opponent completely blows UP our line for an entire game without even bothering to blitz much, so I'll know if we ever face equal necessity. Ramirez sent the first snap through the end zone, Franklin got caved in all night, Beadles was tripping people because he couldn't block them, and even before the game USAToday was reporting HALF our league low 20 sacks were on Clark. If Clady fully recovers that fixes Clark; what about the other three...?

Manning AND Moreno make our line look MUCH better than it is. We're all deeply proud of how Moreno's fought and scrapped for every yard this year: His season average was 4.3 yds/att, just a hair above the NFL average. If he's doing all that fighting for average results, what does that say about his blocking? And his injuries? I'm tired of seeing our backs have to break multiple tackles just to reach the line. It's not a new thing; McGahee led the NFL in YAC 2 years ago; gee, I wonder why he and Moreno always got hurt so much.

Same with Manning; he's great at reading Ds and making hot reads, and has 3 Pro Bowl receivers for targets, but when the rush is on him at the snap there's not much even he can do. That's why we have Sherman going on about how they figured out his signals, read his eyes; maybe the best pocket passer every locked onto his first read like a 6th round rookie. Garbage; we couldn't run, Seattle knew it, so they sold out on the pass and came straight for Manning, hurrying throws to WRs who needed time to beat jams: Lots of incompletes and a couple picks.

The best offense in NFL history is really just the best passing in NFL history, thanks to a first ballot HoF QB and 3 Pro Bowl receivers. They don't do that because of our line, but DESPITE it, and there's a reason our team rushing average was 20th in the NFL. The greatest offense in nearly a century of NFL history averaged 4.1 yds/att, barely above the BOTTOM TEN.

[TXBRONC]

Manning makes all the reads, the diagnosis and instructs the line, and still has to do a short drop quick pass on the majority of his passes. You put another QB in behind the oline and the number of sacks would go up dramatically. It is all because of Manning. He makes the oline look much better than they are.

Setting the protection doesn't mean they can execute the block.

[Joel]

Setting the protection doesn't mean they can execute the block.
That's it in a nutshell. Manning's just lucky he's Manning; everytime our linemen get shoved into Morenos face it's "he has NO vision, just up runs his linemens butts!" but everytime they flat out WHIFF and tacklers reach him before the handoff it's "why won't he just run straight ahead instead of ALWAYS dancing around; doesn't he know it's ONE cut, then run north/south?!"

Easily the most frustrating about discussing football is that the number of people interested is inversely proportional to those who even know the line's the most critical part, let alone WATCH it. That is, as with so many things, the number of people who know wtf they're talking about is inversely proportional to the number talking anyway. The last decade or two's improved, but to most people the line's still just tackles preventing Clay Matthews or Jared Allen flattening a QB off the edge. They MAY notice a pulling guard blocking downfield, 'cause it's similarly easy to see.

Just don't ask them what happened on the INTERIOR line unless someone paid to tell them just did precisely that with a slow mo diagram. Seems like even most folks who know they SHOULD look don't make the effort. I'll never get over all the replays immediately after and ever since Orange Julius' first career TD; as many times as we saw it all I ever heard anyone talk about was Mannings quick read and throw and how easily Thomas beat the LB in coverage.

I've yet to hear ANYONE comment on the first thing I saw: Chris Canty blowing by Ramirez untouched to plant a shoulder squarely in Mannings ribs, wrap him up and carry him to the ground HARD. It was on the inside and it wasn't a sack, so nobody saw it and nobody cares, right? I bet Manning (briefly) saw it, and cared a great deal.

Everyone who knows football knew the SB would be won or lost at the line, not because of key individual matchups, or the need to pressure Manning, or the need to contain Lynch: Just because EVERY game's won or lost on the line unless the so-called "skill" players are so exceptionally bad/awful it doesn't matter what the offensive and defensive lines do.

Think about it: Is Kaepernick THAT much better than Manning? Are Crabtree, Boldin, Celek and Davis THAT much better than DT, Decker, Welker and JT? MAYBE Gore's better than Moreno, but Moreno breaks tackles just as well; people knock him for lacking speed and shiftiness, but Gore's more Tom Rathman than Roger Craig.

Yet if one ignores the line play and just looks at how the "skill" players did against the Seahawks defense, SFs scrub QB and pair of Pro Bowlers did FAR better on Seattles field than our first ballot HoFer and THREE Pro Bowlers did on a neutral field. Because our line got their heads stomped in all night, and SFs didn't

If/when we get half our defensive starters back from season-ending injuries, THAT line's fine (could use a real Mike behind them though.) Our offensive line's the "only" thing wrong with this team, but it's a big "only" that not only kept the best offense in NFL history from WINNING a Super Bowl, but allowed one of the worst SB LOSSES ever, from the opening snap. Yeah, OK, Clady's hurt, too; Clady's not why the right side collapsed, or why Seahawks came pouring over Beadles so fast he could do nothing but trip them.

Yes, it's also true Seattles front four is phenomenally good and deep—they still shouldn't be on Manning and Moreno at the snap WITHOUT EVEN BLITZING! It's 4 on 5; you can even doubleteam the toughest one as long as the rest aren't blowing you into your backfield. Manning and Moreno have admirably compensated for those failings all season, but aren't a two-man offense, and Manning needs longer for even a hot read when the WRs have to beat jams first.

If we want to keep our QB or RBs alive, much less win a Super Bowl with them, we our offensive line MUST get MUCH better. We can sit around consoling ourselves by saying we just lost to the NFLs best team, that they would've beaten anyone Sunday (even though a week ago it was all about how much they sucked and were overrated because they had a "soft" schedule only playing the NFLs toughest division twice.) Bottom line remains what it was last Saturday: However good Seattle is/n't, we must be better to win a title. Until/unless we fix the line, we can't be.

[Dzone]

Let Beadles go somewhere else. Sign Incognito.
Orlando Franklin was fine, until the super bowl, then he fell flat on his face

[TXBRONC]

That's it in a nutshell. Manning's just lucky he's Manning; everytime our linemen get shoved into Morenos face it's "he has NO vision, just up runs his linemens butts!" but everytime they flat out WHIFF and tacklers reach him before the handoff it's "why won't he just run straight ahead instead of ALWAYS dancing around; doesn't he know it's ONE cut, then run north/south?!"

Easily the most frustrating about discussing football is that the number of people interested is inversely proportional to those who even know the line's the most critical part, let alone WATCH it. That is, as with so many things, the number of people who know wtf they're talking about is inversely proportional to the number talking anyway. The last decade or two's improved, but to most people the line's still just tackles preventing Clay Matthews or Jared Allen flattening a QB off the edge. They MAY notice a pulling guard blocking downfield, 'cause it's similarly easy to see.

Just don't ask them what happened on the INTERIOR line unless someone paid to tell them just did precisely that with a slow mo diagram. Seems like even most folks who know they SHOULD look don't make the effort. I'll never get over all the replays immediately after and ever since Orange Julius' first career TD; as many times as we saw it all I ever heard anyone talk about was Mannings quick read and throw and how easily Thomas beat the LB in coverage.

I've yet to hear ANYONE comment on the first thing I saw: Chris Canty blowing by Ramirez untouched to plant a shoulder squarely in Mannings ribs, wrap him up and carry him to the ground HARD. It was on the inside and it wasn't a sack, so nobody saw it and nobody cares, right? I bet Manning (briefly) saw it, and cared a great deal.

Everyone who knows football knew the SB would be won or lost at the line, not because of key individual matchups, or the need to pressure Manning, or the need to contain Lynch: Just because EVERY game's won or lost on the line unless the so-called "skill" players are so exceptionally bad/awful it doesn't matter what the offensive and defensive lines do.

Think about it: Is Kaepernick THAT much better than Manning? Are Crabtree, Boldin, Celek and Davis THAT much better than DT, Decker, Welker and JT? MAYBE Gore's better than Moreno, but Moreno breaks tackles just as well; people knock him for lacking speed and shiftiness, but Gore's more Tom Rathman than Roger Craig.

Yet if one ignores the line play and just looks at how the "skill" players did against the Seahawks defense, SFs scrub QB and pair of Pro Bowlers did FAR better on Seattles field than our first ballot HoFer and THREE Pro Bowlers did on a neutral field. Because our line got their heads stomped in all night, and SFs didn't

If/when we get half our defensive starters back from season-ending injuries, THAT line's fine (could use a real Mike behind them though.) Our offensive line's the "only" thing wrong with this team, but it's a big "only" that not only kept the best offense in NFL history from WINNING a Super Bowl, but allowed one of the worst SB LOSSES ever, from the opening snap. Yeah, OK, Clady's hurt, too; Clady's not why the right side collapsed, or why Seahawks came pouring over Beadles so fast he could do nothing but trip them.

Yes, it's also true Seattles front four is phenomenally good and deep—they still shouldn't be on Manning and Moreno at the snap WITHOUT EVEN BLITZING! It's 4 on 5; you can even doubleteam the toughest one as long as the rest aren't blowing you into your backfield. Manning and Moreno have admirably compensated for those failings all season, but aren't a two-man offense, and Manning needs longer for even a hot read when the WRs have to beat jams first.

If we want to keep our QB or RBs alive, much less win a Super Bowl with them, we our offensive line MUST get MUCH better. We can sit around consoling ourselves by saying we just lost to the NFLs best team, that they would've beaten anyone Sunday (even though a week ago it was all about how much they sucked and were overrated because they had a "soft" schedule only playing the NFLs toughest division twice.) Bottom line remains what it was last Saturday: However good Seattle is/n't, we must be better to win a title. Until/unless we fix the line, we can't be.

Good grief can you just get to the damn point every once in awhile. You might want go back and look the entire conversation I had with Mike. Unlike you and Mike I think our offensive line is very good. You have no freaking idea what you're talking about.

[Joel]

Let Beadles go somewhere else. Sign Incognito.
Orlando Franklin was fine, until the super bowl, then he fell flat on his face
I want tough and mean, but Incognito scares the crap out of me, and not in a good way. It's not like he's an elite blocker anyway, just a :censored:.

I wanted Beadles gone three years ago though, so no argument there; as noted several times, I'd help pack to see him gone sooner. Franklin... he finally won me over this year, then, as you say, looked like his rookie season in the SB. Between that and Cladys age/health, I'd draft a guard AND tackle early on principle. Say, depending on how the draft class looks, OT, MLB, OG, and I'd only wait that long for a guard because they're so widely underappreciated; unless he's a likely HoFer, just about any guard would go a round higher as a comparable tackle.

[Joel]

Good grief can you just get to the damn point every once in awhile. You might want go back and look the entire conversation I had with Mike. Unlike you and Mike I think our offensive line is very good.
Seattles front four disagrees, as do most who saw the game, because just 4 Seahawks terrorized our 5 very good linemen (and their charges) all night.

Kaepernick>Manning?
Crabtree>DT?
Boldin>Decker?
Celek>Welker?
Davis>JT?
Gore>Moreno?

I'm not even sure about the last one; again, people knock Moreno for speed and shiftiness, but Gore's not exactly loaded with either, and Moreno breaks tackles just as well. Yet SFs offense IN SEATTLE far outperformed our Greatest Offense Evah at a neutral site. If the problem's not so-called "skill" positions, what's left? If you're going to say, "Clady's hurt," Seattle blew holes through our WHOLE line ALL NIGHT, not just the LT. If our line's very good, why did they cost us a Super Bowl? Seattle's just way better? Think that'll change NEXT SB?

[G_Money]

The line needs to be less schizophrenic. With Clady and Beadles on the left we had a finesse side, suited for ZBS and movement/screens (tho Clady can do most anything). On the right side, with Vasquez and Franklin we had a couple of maulers. Manny has the strength to be a mauler but doesn't apply it, so I dunno which way he goes. Perfect for the middle of that spectrum, I guess.

I want another angry SOB at RT, move Franklin to LG, and turn the whole line into 5 angry men. That leaves Clark as a good backup (where he should be) in case of need. Add a blocking TE for a heavy set and see what happens.

~G

[Dzone]

We need a running back who can truck people. We whiffed on Lacy in a big way.

[G_Money]

Lacy can't pass block worth a shit and he's not the brightest crayon in the box. In a Peyton Manning offense, pass-blocking and assignment football is huge. I like Lacy as a runner, but you can't have a pure runner with PFM at the reins. You need somebody who can keep up with what's happening on the field and in the audibles. Ball is good in all phases and it still took him half the year to catch up.

On that note, if we need a late-round complement to Ball, I'm interested in Lorenzo Taliaferro. That dude can pass-block, he's got heft in his running without being too tall, hands aren't bad...

We could do worse.

~G

[Lancane]

While the stats support the argument that the offensive line play was good, we all know that stats can be misleading, they're parameters by which fans and the press measure success. And in Denver's case it is even more irrelevant due to Manning who is sacked less due to the speed which he goes through his progressions, his pre-snap adjustments as well as the quickness of his release. While others want to argue that the line is exceptional or horrendous, I simply have come to accept that it's neither, it's sort of between the two. It needs to be tweaked but not completely overhauled and I believe that the left guard and center positions at this time are the biggest concerns for the brass.

[Dzone]

Are you saying Lacy has a worse wonderlick score than M Ball?
We have nobody on this team who can run with the power of Eddie Lacy(Or marshawn lynch for that matter).

[Dzone]

Oh ya, Im glad we didnt draft Eddie Lacy, he had a messed up foot. I forgot about that. Whew. We dodged a bullet there by drafting Ball instead

[Jsteve01]

Are you saying Lacy has a worse wonderlick score than M Ball?
We have nobody on this team who can run with the power of Eddie Lacy(Or marshawn lynch for that matter).. Ok ill continue to beat the turbin drum

[MOtorboat]

. Ok ill continue to beat the turbin drum

Why? Same with the Lacy drum...

It doesn't matter. Denver HAS Ball. He was starting to develop at the end of the season, and he's not coming off the roster. Denver needs a change of pace back with some speed now.

[Lancane]

Why? Same with the Lacy drum...

It doesn't matter. Denver HAS Ball. He was starting to develop at the end of the season, and he's not coming off the roster. Denver needs a change of pace back with some speed now.

You mean what we were suppose to have in Hillman?

It's still possible that Hillman can be a change of pace back, but as for Ball I am pretty stoked about his development and if they tweak the line just right, then he'll be a beast. However, in regards to Lacy, those of us who were high on him were told constantly that he was overrated and more then likely going to be a bust. Well, if he's a bust, I hope we start drafting more busts!

[MOtorboat]

You mean what we were suppose to have in Hillman?

It's still possible that Hillman can be a change of pace back, but as for Ball I am pretty stoked about his development and if they tweak the line just right, then he'll be a beast. However, in regards to Lacy, those of us who were high on him were told constantly that he was overrated and more then likely going to be a bust. Well, if he's a bust, I hope we start drafting more busts!

I think that's a fair criticism of Hillman. I just hate the "we coulda drafted 'X'."

Granted, of ALL the "we coulda drafted" arguments I've seen, Lacy might be one of the strongest, but it's still ridiculously petty IMO.

[MOtorboat]

I mean, seriously, if we're going to play the "we shoulda had" game...with the Ball pick, wouldn't that realistically actually be Tyronn Matthieu? Logan Ryan or T. J. McDonald?

Those are the guys that would have likely made a real impact on the team.

[Lancane]

I think that's a fair criticism of Hillman. I just hate the "we coulda drafted 'X'."

Granted, of ALL the "we coulda drafted" arguments I've seen, Lacy might be one of the strongest, but it's still ridiculously petty IMO.

True, it's like crying over spilt milk, using the old adage. And it's a little petty, but the "we should have drafted or taken" vitriol is more apt to be used by Broncos' fans due to the level of horrid drafts we came to know under Shanahan...but I believe we need to get over that at this stage, it's been five years.

As for Hillman, I hate wasted draft picks so I hope he becomes a contributor, hopefully what Moreno had that Ball lacks, will make it easier for those who'll be upset at losing Moreno should he sign elsewhere or he just becomes another weapon in the arsenal.

[TXBRONC]

True, it's like crying over spilt milk, using the old adage. And it's a little petty, but the "we should have drafted or taken" vitriol is more apt to be used by Broncos' fans due to the level of horrid drafts we came to know under Shanahan...but I believe we need to get over that at this stage, it's been five years.

As for Hillman, I hate wasted draft picks so I hope he becomes a contributor, hopefully what Moreno had that Ball lacks, will make it easier for those who'll be upset at losing Moreno should he sign elsewhere or he just becomes another weapon in the arsenal.

What exactly does Moreno have that Ball lacks other than experience?

[CrazyHorse]

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about RB at this point. Even if Moreno leaves my only concern is depth. Ball the starter with Hillman for a change of pace and Anderson the backup should be adequate. Hillman needs to fix the fumbling issue though. Our whole team struggles with ball security however, not just him.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about RB at this point. Even if Moreno leaves my only concern is depth. Ball the starter with Hillman for a change of pace and Anderson the backup should be adequate. Hillman needs to fix the fumbling issue though. Our whole team struggles with ball security however, not just him.

I'm not worried and I don't think that others who are talking about running back are worried. I wouldn't be surprised if Denver adds another running back this year.

[Joel]

The line needs to be less schizophrenic. With Clady and Beadles on the left we had a finesse side, suited for ZBS and movement/screens (tho Clady can do most anything). On the right side, with Vasquez and Franklin we had a couple of maulers. Manny has the strength to be a mauler but doesn't apply it, so I dunno which way he goes. Perfect for the middle of that spectrum, I guess.

I want another angry SOB at RT, move Franklin to LG, and turn the whole line into 5 angry men. That leaves Clark as a good backup (where he should be) in case of need. Add a blocking TE for a heavy set and see what happens.
Vasquez would be fine in a ZBS, just like Clady. but Beadles needs it to even be average (and that's being generous) and Franklin can't do anything but shove straight ahead (hence the calls for him to play guard.) Maybe we should consider replacing Beadles and Franklin with guys who are strong AND quick; seemed to work well for Seattles front four.


We need a running back who can truck people. We whiffed on Lacy in a big way.
Moreno trucks fine; we just too often force him to do it twice before he reaches the line. Until/unless we fix that problem we'll need a back like Earl Campbell to produce much. Plus, y'know, everything that G_Money. Moreno's great at nothing but good at everything; I hope we have him next year. He is to our run blocking what Manning is to our pass blocking: Hides many flaws.


What exactly does Moreno have that Ball lacks other than experience?
He's a better pass blocker for one, and ALWAYS fights for extra yards; sadly, that frequently still means a TFL. He can only commando crawl so far before down by contact.

[MOtorboat]

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about RB at this point. Even if Moreno leaves my only concern is depth. Ball the starter with Hillman for a change of pace and Anderson the backup should be adequate. Hillman needs to fix the fumbling issue though. Our whole team struggles with ball security however, not just him.

Because I don't think Hillman and Anderson are very good.

[BroncoNut]

I'd like to hang onto Moreno the more I think on it.

[BroncoJoe]

I'd like to hang onto Moreno the more I think on it.

I'm sure you would, you sick ******.

[BroncoNut]

I'm sure you would, you sick ******.

not that way you goofball. I meant as a bronco

[TXBRONC]

Vasquez would be fine in a ZBS, just like Clady. but Beadles needs it to even be average (and that's being generous) and Franklin can't do anything but shove straight ahead (hence the calls for him to play guard.) Maybe we should consider replacing Beadles and Franklin with guys who are strong AND quick; seemed to work well for Seattles front four.


Moreno trucks fine; we just too often force him to do it twice before he reaches the line. Until/unless we fix that problem we'll need a back like Earl Campbell to produce much. Plus, y'know, everything that G_Money. Moreno's great at nothing but good at everything; I hope we have him next year. He is to our run blocking what Manning is to our pass blocking: Hides many flaws.


He's a better pass blocker for one, and ALWAYS fights for extra yards; sadly, that frequently still means a TFL. He can only commando crawl so far before down by contact.

No Moreno doesn't ALWAYS fight for extra yards. And you are full of shit that it frequently mean a TFL. If that's the case he wouldn't have been over four yards per carry. Most of what you say is idiotic and not based in facts. Moreno was a better pass blocker earlier in the year but by the end of season that wasn't true.

[Joel]

No Moreno doesn't ALWAYS fight for extra yards. And you are full of shit that it frequently mean a TFL. If that's the case he wouldn't have been over four yards per carry. Most of what you say is idiotic and not based in facts. Moreno was a better pass blocker earlier in the year but by the end of season that wasn't true.
It means a TFL about as often as it means a 1-2 yd gain or 5-6; throw all those in with the occasional 20-30 yarder and it averages out to 4.1.

Believe as you wish, but it's not like Balls 4.7 yds/att is anything special. The days of playing Plug-a-Back and getting 1500 yds no matter what are gone.

Meanwhile, Moreno ran for 1000 yds and had 500 yds receiving; how many backs in NFL history can say that? Then he picks up the blitz on TOP of that? Good luck drafting anyone better.

[Lancane]

What exactly does Moreno have that Ball lacks other than experience?

He's a better receiver out of the backfield and shows better vision in passing routes for one thing. I think Ball will develop those to a degree, I also think that Hillman has the capability to show the shiftiness we've come to see from Moreno in the passing attack which Ball does lack because he is more straightforward, he doesn't backtrack like Moreno has been known to do.

[Lancane]

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about RB at this point. Even if Moreno leaves my only concern is depth. Ball the starter with Hillman for a change of pace and Anderson the backup should be adequate. Hillman needs to fix the fumbling issue though. Our whole team struggles with ball security however, not just him.

I'm far from worried, Ball can handle to ground workload and his pass blocking and even pass catching has improved. And I hope that Hillman like Ball after falling out of favor has worked on his fumbling nature. Denver will be fine in regards to the position in my opinion, we're just discussing the position, to be frank I think we're all less worried about that position compared to others.